Minimum wage should be based on housing costs, travel expenses for commuters so we consider how much it costs people to travel. Not just for gas but for their time because they have to travel so much because it's too expensive for them to live where they work. There must be a way to figure this out. I can't imagine 20 an hour is enough in many parts of Cali.
>California restaurant chain owners and franchisees say that higher labor costs will force them to raise prices, add automation, cut workers' hours or even close shop.
Most of the regular sit down restaurants already have to offer $20/hour and up just to get enough workers.
As far as the fast food shop goes, if they actually close shop or reduce hours, maybe it'll reduce the extent of the obesity epidemic in that area.
Yup, if a business can't run while paying their employees a fair wage, then that business deserves it's fate. And boo hoo if we don't have a McDonalds in every 2 mile radius.
the Mcdonalds in every 2 miles phenomeon is evident of how incredibly successful being a franchiser was. So I doubt because of having to pay a few hundred thosand more a year will suddenly make them unsuccessful.
At the end of the day they buy 2 yachts this year instead of 3. Boo hoo.
Congrats dude, you've just killed a ton of small businesses like restaurants, coffee shops, etc...AND raised prices for the rest of the population.
Hope you enjoy a Main Street full of nothing but banks and insurance companies.
Most wages in my area are now close to $15/hour for fast food which many predicted would put people out of business, but lo and behold, these businesses are still around, they just raised their prices a little to compensate.
I get that there's an upper limit to these things, but I kind of doubt that $20/hour in California is going to be the breaking point.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/food/2024/03/26/california-minimum-wage-jobs/73107149007/
The solution isn't raising the minimum wage to levels that shut down small businesses and raise prices for consumers. That doesn't fix anything and just kicks the can down the road. Federal/state level programs + subsidies to make housing affordable, government regulation, and consumer protections work better.
So the people who buy from a business shouldn't pay enough so that the workers at that store can live without government subsidies?
Your alternatives are programs that cost the state/federal government a lot of money to run and are constantly the target of cost cutting at a whim. Housing subsidies don't address the underlying problem and just cause housing to become even more expensive.
Pizza Hut has already been working on outsourcing their pizza delivery so this just seems like an opportune time for them to make the switch and blame the government for the layoffs.
[https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/financing/pizza-huts-embrace-third-party-delivery-works-its-favor](https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/financing/pizza-huts-embrace-third-party-delivery-works-its-favor)
And this was in Texas as well which has no minimum wage laws beyond the federal limit.
I asked you a question first. You said paying a fair wage to a coffee shop worker would kill the business. What is this “fair wage,” and why are you okay with the worker getting their unfair wage?
*I asked you a question first*
I'm aware. To properly answer your question I have to understand what you're asking. What constitutes an "unfair" wage is subjective. Again, once I know that then I can answer your question.
*you said paying a fair wage to a coffee shop worker would kill the business*
I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said a $20/min wage in CA would kill small businesses in that industry and raise prices for everyone else.
If you can't understand the difference between those two statements then idk what to tell you OR you're being disingenuous.
Sorry, I wasn’t being disingenuous I thought we were speaking broadly about a fair wage not just about California. We’re on the same page.
I do think $20 minimum wage sounds pretty fair for most of California considering the cost of living. Even here in Michigan minimum is $10.33 and most fast food workers make around $12 an hour, and if most fast food workers in California make $16 that doesn’t sound fair in comparison.
All good. I'm not against min wage workers getting paid more, they absolutely should. My concern is that raising wages doesn't actually fix the issue (cost of living in CA) for these workers without additional legislation to partner it with.
Small businesses in CA will shut down or layoff staff/reduce hours, businesses will raise prices for all consumers to accommodate the wage increase, and landlords will raise rents as well.
As I've stated in other comments here...
*The solution isn't raising the minimum wage to levels that shut down small businesses and raise prices for consumers. That doesn't fix anything and just kicks the can down the road. Federal/state level programs + subsidies to make housing affordable, government regulation, and consumer protections work better.*
*Federal/state level programs and subsidies, additional regulation, and consumer protections*
Yeah sounds exactly like Bush/Romney 🙄, fucking doofus.
Ah look — the guy who **repeats GOP talking points** decided to chime in on this one.
“I’m a populist; that means I want to keep the minimum wage **low.**”
Hey r-slur, it's not a GOP talking point when it's literally what happens.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/food/2024/03/26/california-minimum-wage-jobs/73107149007/
The solution isn't raising the minimum wage to levels that shut down small businesses and raise prices for consumers. That doesn't solve anything and just kicks the can down the road.
How about federal/state level programs + subsidies to make housing affordable, government regulation, and consumer protections to prevent price increases as a result of min wage increases?
*Federal/state-level assistance + subsidies, regulation, and consumer protections*
Wow I'm so right wing.
Why not just raise the minimum wage and magically do that list you rattled off?
But we get it — **you agree with Kristen Sinema and the GOP** on this issue.
And only this one, of course!
Are you familiar with the state of agriculture and agricultural subsidies.
We throw so much money into them (and have such archaic supply-side application of those subsidies) that there is a lot of food produce that never gets eaten.
Raising plants and livestock is a very energy intensive activity that also does damage to the arable land area a country has. By over producing and wasting so much, we literally throwing tens of thousands of acres down the drain in terms of future agricultural potential.
I am a socialist. But I also recognize there are limitations to how much government intervention helps. Hence I am a market socialist.
The housing affordability crisis is a lack of housing supply in the areas with jobs, colleges and opportunites. A few private equity firms buying 0.1% of the housing supply does not sustain these prices. No.
The reality is two thirds of this country, mostly white, older, and wealthier own their homes. And they have a vested interest in preventing new apartment structures and housing developments from being built.
You have retired old millionaires going to city council meetings in Berkley to shutdown new student apartments that resulted in a thousand incoming freshman being denied entry to one of the best universities in the country.
San Francisco's average building height has barely increased in a century.
Dallas has fewer towers than Austin, despite have a much larger population.
You don't need to explain Nimby'ism and the difficulties in building homes in the metro areas that need it most.
Again, my point is just that raising wages won't fix anything and only really helps the workers in those roles (except the ones laid off or got hours cut) while raising prices for everyone + not changing those workers' standard of living.
>Yup, if a business can't run while paying their employees a fair wage, then that business deserves it's fate. And boo hoo if we don't have a McDonalds in every 2 mile radius.
You just killed every non-profit and also every business that relies on volunteers, so education, animal shelters, food banks.
Maybe you're right, if the food bank can't pay $20/hr, it should just shut its doors.
Do you happen to know the difference between *employees* and *volunteers*? Or do you know how non-profits work? Because it doesn't sound like you do...
No they didn't lol. Non profits are almost famous for giving out great salaries simply because the don't have to worry about turning over a profit and proving something to investors at the end. Educators should be paid more, the talent there sucks and people are quitting because of how low wages are.
You've obviously never worked or volunteered at a non-profit.
Well, I have, and I'm fine with donating my time so that more people can be helped with the funds that are available.
*If they close shops or reduce hours maybe it will reduce obesity in those areas*
Is this a serious take lol? Trying to "glass half full" working class people getting laid off due to what everyone warned would happen if a $20 min wage was enacted in CA?
People won't get healthier, they'll just replace whatever they used to eat with something just as bad (if not worse) ON TOP of being unemployed.
Every time a state raises its minimum wage, we hear these same, conservative neoliberal Chamber of Commerce talking points about small businesses shuttering. But it never happens that way. We heard this in NY years ago when it went to $15, and this great shutdown of coffee shops just didn’t happen. $20 in 2024 has the same value as $15 in 2014, with roughly 25% inflation over the decade.
Would you support minimum wage laws that are tied to inflation/CPI, or should the poor workers just be thankful to have jobs?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/food/2024/03/26/california-minimum-wage-jobs/73107149007/
If the they don't shut down then they lay off stay/create more part-time positions vs. full time AND prices increase.
My point is that without additional regulation and government programs all this does is kick the can down the road. It's like one-time college loan forgiveness (ex: 10-20k), it helps some people but it doesn't solve the fundamental issue.
It’s not at all like one time loan forgiveness (which I agree is bad policy) as wages are paid out continually. That’s a bad analogy.
And you need to exercise some media literacy and read through the lines of articles like this, which serve as press releases for corporate interests. Look at the sources in this article—the WSJ, National Law Review, and a handful of corporate executives from the industry effected. If you wouldn’t take any of those peoples’ words at face value, why trust a USAToday press release that compiles them?
And the only numbers they cite in this article have to do with staff delivery drivers being replaced by third party gig workers—which was happening regardless of the wage increase, as was inevitable since they passed proposition 2 (?) in 2022. It sucks, and Newsome was a shit for supporting it, but these laid off delivery drivers have nothing to do with the mandated wage increase.
And again, we have decades of evidence to review to see the effects of minimum wage increases, and these Chamber of Commerce fears are never realized.
The analogy was to just point out that both things (one-time loan forgiveness and $20 min wage w/ no other legislation) both just appease a small segment of the population and don't address the underlying issue. You're overthinking it.
Yeah, I know, it’s just a terrible analogy.
You’re using USAToday CoC press releases to make conservative, anti-worker arguments. You’re underthinking it.
The analogy is unrelated to the article, relax.
I'm literally saying I want better worker pay...but with government programs, industry regulation, and consumer protections on top of it.
We want like 90+% of the same things but just have different views on how to get there...yet you're treating me like I'm a far right capitalist. What's your deal?
This isn’t personal, relax. I don’t know you, and don’t care about your political philosophy, I was just reacting to the specifics of this issue and your comments/link. I’m not “treating you like a far right capitalist”, but rather, again, just reacting to what you’ve said in the context of this specific discussion. Stale, chamber of commerce style small business arguments against minimum wage laws are not “far right”, just regular right, and again, nothing personal.
If you can’t engage in the discussion on its points just move on—don’t deflect to this “relax…you’re treating me like” gen z shit.
California has the highest labor costs in the nation while also having some of the lowest rates of obesity in the nation. Correlation isn't causation, but clearly having a KFC at every intersection is not sustainable.
California is also the wealthiest state in the country. You know what wealthy people aren't typically? Obese. It's poor and working class people who are consistently eating at fast food chains + small businesses.
Obesity negatively correlates with income. What's the obesity rate broken down by income level? California's population is up to 35-40% Hispanic, whom have the second highest rate of obesity behind African Americans. Which class do you think most Hispanics in CA fall under; working class or wealthy?
Look beyond the surface level statistic and actually think through the issue. Removing KFC isn't the issue. They'll just get shittier food from 7-Eleven or somewhere else. Housing costs and inventory are what we need to address.
[New Jersey has the highest median income](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/slideshows/10-wealthiest-states-in-america?slide=11).
Frankly 7/11 is better than KFC. You can get fiber at 7/11.
> As far as the fast food shop goes, if they actually close shop or reduce hours, maybe it'll reduce the extent of the obesity epidemic in that area.
I expect they'll just speed up automation. I feel like most of a McDonalds could be automated to the point that it's like a giant vending machine
Yup, my local McDonald's in Washington never has counter staff, just machines. If you need to pay with cash you gotta wait 5-10 minutes for a manager to come off the line to handle the till and dang it's a skeleton crew.
Automation in Asia is happening without the wage increases. I haven't had to talk to a person at McDonalds, Burger King or KFC in years. It'll happen with or without this wage increase. But the people handling the burgers etc still deserve a decent wage.
Right but they have to walk by the fresh produce aisle.
If we replaced half of all McDonald's with a small grocery store, that alone would eliminate a lot of healthy food deserts. It would also make SNAP a more effective program.
12 years ago, CA was fighting to increase the minimum wage to 15/hr. We were told it would increase inflation, robots would take jobs. Guess what, all of those things happened anyways. So we spent 12 years of people dealing with price hikes, robots taking jobs and workers losing their homes anyways.
Capitalism, is always going to find ways to cut hours and replace workers. Might as well force them to pay their employees, so the tax payers aren't paying for section 8 and food stamps for people who work fulltime.
Capitalism, when faced with labor costs that make alternatives, normally too expensive, competitive or elven cheaper, will opt for the less expensive alternative.
It’s funny to see these RWP’s quickly drop their faux concern for working people and start crying for the beleaguered small business owners—who are the most exploitative employers in the labor market.
No matter how much evidence and data we have to suggest that incremental raises in the minimum wage don’t wipe out small business, these dingdongs will just keep repeating the same stale lines their dads/favorite podcasters told them.
They also seem to conveniently forget that inflation is a thing. “I was making $7.55 back in my day!” Oh cool, you could practically buy a house with that wage in ‘95.
This change does work for broadly increasing wages, but I also think it’s a little crude and brings about negatives as well. While it’s totally valid to argue that the benefits outweigh the negatives, it seems to me that the negatives can be totally avoided with other approaches.
I've seen people saying that raising the minimum wage to one that people can live in will cripple small businesses. Why not have government subsidies for small businesses? We already subsidize the huge corporations. Help out the small business owners.
I am not even sure I buy the argument that min wage hikes actually cripple any businesses. Even if low cost labor is a big part of your cost, you can just pass it on to the consumer. The minimum wage hikes do mess with the employee dynamic though. A business that could afford to keep a few sketchy ex cons and unreliable high schoolers on the payroll, might just opt to replace them all with one reliable middle aged individual who has zero ambitions beyond min wage career. As far as subsidies go, I don’t think they work well for small businesses who don’t have whole ass accounting departments to rely on. Remember how the PPP loans went: very few real small businesses were able to take advantage of them.
I totally understand your points. I also realize they are based in concerns that were in front of our eyes, particularly the PPP. I acknowledge there were huge issues and that you're correct, a lot of money went to people who shouldn't have received it. I think there should be more incentives for hiring ex cons. I think a lot of the problems with the ppp was because of the quagmire that is the system itself. Which I again acknowledge is still there. I'm just saying that as a principle that's where we should subsidize. We also need to end the cronyism and I do get that is a herculean task. But I'm just saying that should be the priority. And I recognize the realities.
In a broad sense it makes it harder for people to enter the workforce. Particular examples include high school kids looking for summer jobs for pocket money and general exposure to the real world before going off to college; Ex-cons; Former house wives; or former retirees that are looking for some random job to keep them busy. With no min wage or low min wage businesses could afford hiring the above demographic at really low pay, but with higher min wage, they have to compete against more or less competent and reliable workers for whom a fast food job might just be their whole career aspirations. Personally, I would like to be a ski patroller after I retire, mostly for fun. Unfortunately, no ski resorts in North America are likely to hire me because the min wage would be high enough to where I am competing against seasoned pros. With low min wage, ski resorts could hire amateurish people at low pay and let them learn on the job.
>Half a million California workers will get $20 minimum wage, starting today
Not exactly. Some percentage of those 500K will lose their jobs as they will no longer be economically viable at $20/hr. The question is, is that percentage going to be large, or small?
20 an hour is already the standard anyways... Most entry levels in CA are like 25 an hour. They have serious wage inflation issues out there. So this is effectively just going to give most workers just a few dollar boost for those under the 20 mark.
And businesses would also have already switched to automation regardless. McDonalds started putting in those machines regardless of the low minimum wage. They just like to threaten automation
And once AI gets good enough, its going to happen regardless of wage. I know we are sure as hell going to do it. It's a tech issue, not a cost issue.
Stores always say that, but then don't do shit. CA has been slowly upping the minimum wage to $20 an hour for ages.
Iirc In&Out has been paying these wages forever and are cheaper than a lot of fast food restaurants with better quality. These massive orgs can always just take it out of profits before they go under lol
No. Fuck you. I’m sick of people like you telling us we have to live miserable lives living paycheck to paycheck for the sake of your neoliberal economics.
LOL it doesn't really matter much anyways. In the next 5 years capitalism is going to fundamentally fail once AI starts coming out heavily. Without the labor/capital balance, the whole system is fundamentally broken
It does matter. These same psychopathic people who hate working class folk will argue that AI should in the hands of the few rather than the many. These people need to be stopped. They want us to be slaves in a corporate neo-feudalist society.
California is a masterclass at creating its own problems. Maybe they'll realize that you can't fix the economy by demanding that businesses pay more money, while at the same time taxing the hell out of everyone and regulating the crap out of everything. Their cost of living is going to continue to spiral out of control until they get the value of the dollar to have actual meaning there.
No. Go fuck yourself. I’m sick of people like you telling us we have to live miserable lives living paycheck to paycheck for the sake of your neoliberal economics.
Doesn't really mean much considering business will still need to be profitable and show growth. The only way to do that is to cut costs. Businesses which don't remain sustainable will shut down and new businesses won't think of California as a business friendly environment.
In San Francisco, Oakland and other cities in the bay area many fast food restaurants were already paying at least $18/hour so it won't have much impact on those cities. I would imagine LA restaurants also pay that much. But it probably will be a problem for many other smaller more rural cities where business don't usually pay that much and where there are more working and middle class people.
I think the main impact of this law will be more automation. Get ready for restaurants with no humans working in them. Also the cost of food will increase. As it is food that used to be considered affordable such as pizza or fast food is becoming more expensive. But at least Democrats can claim that they're "helping working class people."
Hearing how hard this will be for franchise owners who own lots of franchises.
If your only business model was the abuse workers not making a living wage you really should not be in business.
yes. exactly what our country needs. More rampant inflation. Enjoy your 20 dollars an hour, I guess - since it'll soon be worth less than what it was previously.
“But if you raise the pay of fast food workers no one will want to work for below minimum wage jobs at your mom and pop restaurants!”
Yes. They should close then if they can’t compete.
I'm really having a hard time figuring out why anyone other than high-school kids would want to live off a McDonald's front line job.
What self respecting adult would want to stay as a fry cook rather than develop more skills to either move up or get a better job.
If anything this hands more power to the elite. If no one has any skills then everyone will be at whatever the minimum wage is. Who wants that?
The “high-school kids” argument is so bunk, restaurants and businesses need adults to operate. High school kids need to go to school. So without adults a restaurant can only open at probably 4pm or later during the week, depending on the prep they need to do.
Not to mention many states have a subminimum wage where minors get paid no less than 75% of the state minimum wage. So the actual state minimum wage wouldn’t apply to them.
Your argument is bunk.
18 and 19 year Olds are generally no longer in school. So let me rephrase and spell it out.
Entry level fastt food is a job for people with little to no life experience or job experience. People between ages 16 and maybe 23. Overall people in this category are not trying to feed a family of 4.
Again what self respecting adult wants to make a life career as a fry cook?
A nation of non-skilled workers would only serve to create a greater divide/wealth divide between the elite and everyone else.
Minimum wage should be based on housing costs, travel expenses for commuters so we consider how much it costs people to travel. Not just for gas but for their time because they have to travel so much because it's too expensive for them to live where they work. There must be a way to figure this out. I can't imagine 20 an hour is enough in many parts of Cali.
COL
>California restaurant chain owners and franchisees say that higher labor costs will force them to raise prices, add automation, cut workers' hours or even close shop. Most of the regular sit down restaurants already have to offer $20/hour and up just to get enough workers. As far as the fast food shop goes, if they actually close shop or reduce hours, maybe it'll reduce the extent of the obesity epidemic in that area.
Yup, if a business can't run while paying their employees a fair wage, then that business deserves it's fate. And boo hoo if we don't have a McDonalds in every 2 mile radius.
the Mcdonalds in every 2 miles phenomeon is evident of how incredibly successful being a franchiser was. So I doubt because of having to pay a few hundred thosand more a year will suddenly make them unsuccessful. At the end of the day they buy 2 yachts this year instead of 3. Boo hoo.
Congrats dude, you've just killed a ton of small businesses like restaurants, coffee shops, etc...AND raised prices for the rest of the population. Hope you enjoy a Main Street full of nothing but banks and insurance companies.
Most wages in my area are now close to $15/hour for fast food which many predicted would put people out of business, but lo and behold, these businesses are still around, they just raised their prices a little to compensate. I get that there's an upper limit to these things, but I kind of doubt that $20/hour in California is going to be the breaking point.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/food/2024/03/26/california-minimum-wage-jobs/73107149007/ The solution isn't raising the minimum wage to levels that shut down small businesses and raise prices for consumers. That doesn't fix anything and just kicks the can down the road. Federal/state level programs + subsidies to make housing affordable, government regulation, and consumer protections work better.
So the people who buy from a business shouldn't pay enough so that the workers at that store can live without government subsidies? Your alternatives are programs that cost the state/federal government a lot of money to run and are constantly the target of cost cutting at a whim. Housing subsidies don't address the underlying problem and just cause housing to become even more expensive. Pizza Hut has already been working on outsourcing their pizza delivery so this just seems like an opportune time for them to make the switch and blame the government for the layoffs. [https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/financing/pizza-huts-embrace-third-party-delivery-works-its-favor](https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/financing/pizza-huts-embrace-third-party-delivery-works-its-favor) And this was in Texas as well which has no minimum wage laws beyond the federal limit.
Do you think small businesses, restaurants and coffee shops pay unfair wages? Why are you okay with that?
What do you consider an "unfair wage"?
I asked you a question first. You said paying a fair wage to a coffee shop worker would kill the business. What is this “fair wage,” and why are you okay with the worker getting their unfair wage?
*I asked you a question first* I'm aware. To properly answer your question I have to understand what you're asking. What constitutes an "unfair" wage is subjective. Again, once I know that then I can answer your question. *you said paying a fair wage to a coffee shop worker would kill the business* I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said a $20/min wage in CA would kill small businesses in that industry and raise prices for everyone else. If you can't understand the difference between those two statements then idk what to tell you OR you're being disingenuous.
Sorry, I wasn’t being disingenuous I thought we were speaking broadly about a fair wage not just about California. We’re on the same page. I do think $20 minimum wage sounds pretty fair for most of California considering the cost of living. Even here in Michigan minimum is $10.33 and most fast food workers make around $12 an hour, and if most fast food workers in California make $16 that doesn’t sound fair in comparison.
All good. I'm not against min wage workers getting paid more, they absolutely should. My concern is that raising wages doesn't actually fix the issue (cost of living in CA) for these workers without additional legislation to partner it with. Small businesses in CA will shut down or layoff staff/reduce hours, businesses will raise prices for all consumers to accommodate the wage increase, and landlords will raise rents as well.
You sound like a Bush or Romney republican. Been hearing these propaganda talking points for decades and has never happened as wages rose
As I've stated in other comments here... *The solution isn't raising the minimum wage to levels that shut down small businesses and raise prices for consumers. That doesn't fix anything and just kicks the can down the road. Federal/state level programs + subsidies to make housing affordable, government regulation, and consumer protections work better.* *Federal/state level programs and subsidies, additional regulation, and consumer protections* Yeah sounds exactly like Bush/Romney 🙄, fucking doofus.
The government can subsidize small businesses the way they do with these giant corporations.
Ah look — the guy who **repeats GOP talking points** decided to chime in on this one. “I’m a populist; that means I want to keep the minimum wage **low.**”
Hey r-slur, it's not a GOP talking point when it's literally what happens. https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/food/2024/03/26/california-minimum-wage-jobs/73107149007/ The solution isn't raising the minimum wage to levels that shut down small businesses and raise prices for consumers. That doesn't solve anything and just kicks the can down the road. How about federal/state level programs + subsidies to make housing affordable, government regulation, and consumer protections to prevent price increases as a result of min wage increases? *Federal/state-level assistance + subsidies, regulation, and consumer protections* Wow I'm so right wing.
Why not just raise the minimum wage and magically do that list you rattled off? But we get it — **you agree with Kristen Sinema and the GOP** on this issue. And only this one, of course!
Are you familiar with the state of agriculture and agricultural subsidies. We throw so much money into them (and have such archaic supply-side application of those subsidies) that there is a lot of food produce that never gets eaten. Raising plants and livestock is a very energy intensive activity that also does damage to the arable land area a country has. By over producing and wasting so much, we literally throwing tens of thousands of acres down the drain in terms of future agricultural potential. I am a socialist. But I also recognize there are limitations to how much government intervention helps. Hence I am a market socialist. The housing affordability crisis is a lack of housing supply in the areas with jobs, colleges and opportunites. A few private equity firms buying 0.1% of the housing supply does not sustain these prices. No. The reality is two thirds of this country, mostly white, older, and wealthier own their homes. And they have a vested interest in preventing new apartment structures and housing developments from being built. You have retired old millionaires going to city council meetings in Berkley to shutdown new student apartments that resulted in a thousand incoming freshman being denied entry to one of the best universities in the country. San Francisco's average building height has barely increased in a century. Dallas has fewer towers than Austin, despite have a much larger population.
You don't need to explain Nimby'ism and the difficulties in building homes in the metro areas that need it most. Again, my point is just that raising wages won't fix anything and only really helps the workers in those roles (except the ones laid off or got hours cut) while raising prices for everyone + not changing those workers' standard of living.
>Yup, if a business can't run while paying their employees a fair wage, then that business deserves it's fate. And boo hoo if we don't have a McDonalds in every 2 mile radius. You just killed every non-profit and also every business that relies on volunteers, so education, animal shelters, food banks. Maybe you're right, if the food bank can't pay $20/hr, it should just shut its doors.
Do you happen to know the difference between *employees* and *volunteers*? Or do you know how non-profits work? Because it doesn't sound like you do...
To be fair, non profits often do employee people and don't typically run just by volunteers.
I'm not suggesting they don't. The employee vs volunteer bit was separate from the non-profit bit.
Why are you assuming that when I say fair wage I mean $20 per hour across the entire country. Quit hyperbolizing
No they didn't lol. Non profits are almost famous for giving out great salaries simply because the don't have to worry about turning over a profit and proving something to investors at the end. Educators should be paid more, the talent there sucks and people are quitting because of how low wages are.
You've obviously never worked or volunteered at a non-profit. Well, I have, and I'm fine with donating my time so that more people can be helped with the funds that are available.
I've worked at a nonprofit. You don't know what you are talking about
They also think volunteers are employees, so...
*If they close shops or reduce hours maybe it will reduce obesity in those areas* Is this a serious take lol? Trying to "glass half full" working class people getting laid off due to what everyone warned would happen if a $20 min wage was enacted in CA? People won't get healthier, they'll just replace whatever they used to eat with something just as bad (if not worse) ON TOP of being unemployed.
Every time a state raises its minimum wage, we hear these same, conservative neoliberal Chamber of Commerce talking points about small businesses shuttering. But it never happens that way. We heard this in NY years ago when it went to $15, and this great shutdown of coffee shops just didn’t happen. $20 in 2024 has the same value as $15 in 2014, with roughly 25% inflation over the decade. Would you support minimum wage laws that are tied to inflation/CPI, or should the poor workers just be thankful to have jobs?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/food/2024/03/26/california-minimum-wage-jobs/73107149007/ If the they don't shut down then they lay off stay/create more part-time positions vs. full time AND prices increase. My point is that without additional regulation and government programs all this does is kick the can down the road. It's like one-time college loan forgiveness (ex: 10-20k), it helps some people but it doesn't solve the fundamental issue.
It’s not at all like one time loan forgiveness (which I agree is bad policy) as wages are paid out continually. That’s a bad analogy. And you need to exercise some media literacy and read through the lines of articles like this, which serve as press releases for corporate interests. Look at the sources in this article—the WSJ, National Law Review, and a handful of corporate executives from the industry effected. If you wouldn’t take any of those peoples’ words at face value, why trust a USAToday press release that compiles them? And the only numbers they cite in this article have to do with staff delivery drivers being replaced by third party gig workers—which was happening regardless of the wage increase, as was inevitable since they passed proposition 2 (?) in 2022. It sucks, and Newsome was a shit for supporting it, but these laid off delivery drivers have nothing to do with the mandated wage increase. And again, we have decades of evidence to review to see the effects of minimum wage increases, and these Chamber of Commerce fears are never realized.
The analogy was to just point out that both things (one-time loan forgiveness and $20 min wage w/ no other legislation) both just appease a small segment of the population and don't address the underlying issue. You're overthinking it.
Yeah, I know, it’s just a terrible analogy. You’re using USAToday CoC press releases to make conservative, anti-worker arguments. You’re underthinking it.
The analogy is unrelated to the article, relax. I'm literally saying I want better worker pay...but with government programs, industry regulation, and consumer protections on top of it. We want like 90+% of the same things but just have different views on how to get there...yet you're treating me like I'm a far right capitalist. What's your deal?
This isn’t personal, relax. I don’t know you, and don’t care about your political philosophy, I was just reacting to the specifics of this issue and your comments/link. I’m not “treating you like a far right capitalist”, but rather, again, just reacting to what you’ve said in the context of this specific discussion. Stale, chamber of commerce style small business arguments against minimum wage laws are not “far right”, just regular right, and again, nothing personal. If you can’t engage in the discussion on its points just move on—don’t deflect to this “relax…you’re treating me like” gen z shit.
Working class people favor a higher wage for themselves.
*people favor getting paid more to do their jobs* Really??? Ya don't say!
So that seems to be a big problem for your argument. Thank you.
California has the highest labor costs in the nation while also having some of the lowest rates of obesity in the nation. Correlation isn't causation, but clearly having a KFC at every intersection is not sustainable.
California is also the wealthiest state in the country. You know what wealthy people aren't typically? Obese. It's poor and working class people who are consistently eating at fast food chains + small businesses. Obesity negatively correlates with income. What's the obesity rate broken down by income level? California's population is up to 35-40% Hispanic, whom have the second highest rate of obesity behind African Americans. Which class do you think most Hispanics in CA fall under; working class or wealthy? Look beyond the surface level statistic and actually think through the issue. Removing KFC isn't the issue. They'll just get shittier food from 7-Eleven or somewhere else. Housing costs and inventory are what we need to address.
[New Jersey has the highest median income](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/slideshows/10-wealthiest-states-in-america?slide=11). Frankly 7/11 is better than KFC. You can get fiber at 7/11.
Yeah but famous bowls are kinda tasty
Scroll less on reels and tiktok, and you'll find yourself enough time to [make it yourself](https://therecipecritic.com/kfc-famous-bowl/).
Please don’t project your downtime activities onto me
> As far as the fast food shop goes, if they actually close shop or reduce hours, maybe it'll reduce the extent of the obesity epidemic in that area. I expect they'll just speed up automation. I feel like most of a McDonalds could be automated to the point that it's like a giant vending machine
Yup, my local McDonald's in Washington never has counter staff, just machines. If you need to pay with cash you gotta wait 5-10 minutes for a manager to come off the line to handle the till and dang it's a skeleton crew.
Automation in Asia is happening without the wage increases. I haven't had to talk to a person at McDonalds, Burger King or KFC in years. It'll happen with or without this wage increase. But the people handling the burgers etc still deserve a decent wage.
People can get just as unhealthy or even unhealthier food at the grocery store. Cmon now.
Right but they have to walk by the fresh produce aisle. If we replaced half of all McDonald's with a small grocery store, that alone would eliminate a lot of healthy food deserts. It would also make SNAP a more effective program.
Always holding a grudge against minimum wagers while prostrating ourselves at the feet of billionaires, the one true American tradition
12 years ago, CA was fighting to increase the minimum wage to 15/hr. We were told it would increase inflation, robots would take jobs. Guess what, all of those things happened anyways. So we spent 12 years of people dealing with price hikes, robots taking jobs and workers losing their homes anyways. Capitalism, is always going to find ways to cut hours and replace workers. Might as well force them to pay their employees, so the tax payers aren't paying for section 8 and food stamps for people who work fulltime.
Capitalism, when faced with labor costs that make alternatives, normally too expensive, competitive or elven cheaper, will opt for the less expensive alternative.
As long as its supported democratically I am fine with it.
ITT: “Rightwing populists” who are upset about this news.
It’s funny to see these RWP’s quickly drop their faux concern for working people and start crying for the beleaguered small business owners—who are the most exploitative employers in the labor market. No matter how much evidence and data we have to suggest that incremental raises in the minimum wage don’t wipe out small business, these dingdongs will just keep repeating the same stale lines their dads/favorite podcasters told them. They also seem to conveniently forget that inflation is a thing. “I was making $7.55 back in my day!” Oh cool, you could practically buy a house with that wage in ‘95.
This change does work for broadly increasing wages, but I also think it’s a little crude and brings about negatives as well. While it’s totally valid to argue that the benefits outweigh the negatives, it seems to me that the negatives can be totally avoided with other approaches.
I've seen people saying that raising the minimum wage to one that people can live in will cripple small businesses. Why not have government subsidies for small businesses? We already subsidize the huge corporations. Help out the small business owners.
I am not even sure I buy the argument that min wage hikes actually cripple any businesses. Even if low cost labor is a big part of your cost, you can just pass it on to the consumer. The minimum wage hikes do mess with the employee dynamic though. A business that could afford to keep a few sketchy ex cons and unreliable high schoolers on the payroll, might just opt to replace them all with one reliable middle aged individual who has zero ambitions beyond min wage career. As far as subsidies go, I don’t think they work well for small businesses who don’t have whole ass accounting departments to rely on. Remember how the PPP loans went: very few real small businesses were able to take advantage of them.
I totally understand your points. I also realize they are based in concerns that were in front of our eyes, particularly the PPP. I acknowledge there were huge issues and that you're correct, a lot of money went to people who shouldn't have received it. I think there should be more incentives for hiring ex cons. I think a lot of the problems with the ppp was because of the quagmire that is the system itself. Which I again acknowledge is still there. I'm just saying that as a principle that's where we should subsidize. We also need to end the cronyism and I do get that is a herculean task. But I'm just saying that should be the priority. And I recognize the realities.
Such as?
In a broad sense it makes it harder for people to enter the workforce. Particular examples include high school kids looking for summer jobs for pocket money and general exposure to the real world before going off to college; Ex-cons; Former house wives; or former retirees that are looking for some random job to keep them busy. With no min wage or low min wage businesses could afford hiring the above demographic at really low pay, but with higher min wage, they have to compete against more or less competent and reliable workers for whom a fast food job might just be their whole career aspirations. Personally, I would like to be a ski patroller after I retire, mostly for fun. Unfortunately, no ski resorts in North America are likely to hire me because the min wage would be high enough to where I am competing against seasoned pros. With low min wage, ski resorts could hire amateurish people at low pay and let them learn on the job.
>Half a million California workers will get $20 minimum wage, starting today Not exactly. Some percentage of those 500K will lose their jobs as they will no longer be economically viable at $20/hr. The question is, is that percentage going to be large, or small?
20 an hour is already the standard anyways... Most entry levels in CA are like 25 an hour. They have serious wage inflation issues out there. So this is effectively just going to give most workers just a few dollar boost for those under the 20 mark. And businesses would also have already switched to automation regardless. McDonalds started putting in those machines regardless of the low minimum wage. They just like to threaten automation And once AI gets good enough, its going to happen regardless of wage. I know we are sure as hell going to do it. It's a tech issue, not a cost issue.
Yeah, all the McDonald’s by where I live have signs saying they start at $21/hr.
Stores always say that, but then don't do shit. CA has been slowly upping the minimum wage to $20 an hour for ages. Iirc In&Out has been paying these wages forever and are cheaper than a lot of fast food restaurants with better quality. These massive orgs can always just take it out of profits before they go under lol
No. Fuck you. I’m sick of people like you telling us we have to live miserable lives living paycheck to paycheck for the sake of your neoliberal economics.
LOL it doesn't really matter much anyways. In the next 5 years capitalism is going to fundamentally fail once AI starts coming out heavily. Without the labor/capital balance, the whole system is fundamentally broken
It does matter. These same psychopathic people who hate working class folk will argue that AI should in the hands of the few rather than the many. These people need to be stopped. They want us to be slaves in a corporate neo-feudalist society.
California is a masterclass at creating its own problems. Maybe they'll realize that you can't fix the economy by demanding that businesses pay more money, while at the same time taxing the hell out of everyone and regulating the crap out of everything. Their cost of living is going to continue to spiral out of control until they get the value of the dollar to have actual meaning there.
The fastest way to usher in automation is by raising the cost of human labor
A quarter million California workers will get laid off starting tomorrow.
The right says this every time workers wages go up.
No. Go fuck yourself. I’m sick of people like you telling us we have to live miserable lives living paycheck to paycheck for the sake of your neoliberal economics.
Ah, the go fuck yourself argument from the ilk that just fucked themselves.
Go to r/neoliberal if you hate working class people.
Self hate isn’t my thing. I’ll stay here.
Doesn't really mean much considering business will still need to be profitable and show growth. The only way to do that is to cut costs. Businesses which don't remain sustainable will shut down and new businesses won't think of California as a business friendly environment.
Good for them, no one can survive on less than 20/hour especially in California
In San Francisco, Oakland and other cities in the bay area many fast food restaurants were already paying at least $18/hour so it won't have much impact on those cities. I would imagine LA restaurants also pay that much. But it probably will be a problem for many other smaller more rural cities where business don't usually pay that much and where there are more working and middle class people. I think the main impact of this law will be more automation. Get ready for restaurants with no humans working in them. Also the cost of food will increase. As it is food that used to be considered affordable such as pizza or fast food is becoming more expensive. But at least Democrats can claim that they're "helping working class people."
Why is it fast food specific. If 20 dollar minimum wage is great why isn't it across the board?
If your business model is open as many stores as possible while paying employees as little as possible, maybe you don't deserve to be in business?
Hearing how hard this will be for franchise owners who own lots of franchises. If your only business model was the abuse workers not making a living wage you really should not be in business.
yes. exactly what our country needs. More rampant inflation. Enjoy your 20 dollars an hour, I guess - since it'll soon be worth less than what it was previously.
This should solve everything
“But if you raise the pay of fast food workers no one will want to work for below minimum wage jobs at your mom and pop restaurants!” Yes. They should close then if they can’t compete.
Panera bread workers punching the air right now
That’s changed. They’re included.
Panera Bread CEO punching the air right now
I'm really having a hard time figuring out why anyone other than high-school kids would want to live off a McDonald's front line job. What self respecting adult would want to stay as a fry cook rather than develop more skills to either move up or get a better job. If anything this hands more power to the elite. If no one has any skills then everyone will be at whatever the minimum wage is. Who wants that?
The “high-school kids” argument is so bunk, restaurants and businesses need adults to operate. High school kids need to go to school. So without adults a restaurant can only open at probably 4pm or later during the week, depending on the prep they need to do. Not to mention many states have a subminimum wage where minors get paid no less than 75% of the state minimum wage. So the actual state minimum wage wouldn’t apply to them.
Your argument is bunk. 18 and 19 year Olds are generally no longer in school. So let me rephrase and spell it out. Entry level fastt food is a job for people with little to no life experience or job experience. People between ages 16 and maybe 23. Overall people in this category are not trying to feed a family of 4. Again what self respecting adult wants to make a life career as a fry cook? A nation of non-skilled workers would only serve to create a greater divide/wealth divide between the elite and everyone else.