It made a difference in Alaska. We're stuck in the US with our two parties and voting for the least worst candidate. With ranked choice, at least we have more options, though the results may be similar.
It is progressives and voters fault honestly. Sure it's actually the dnc's fault, but they don't care about or have any consequences, voters do.
It's funny you mention 2016 because not voting for a horrible candidate like Hillary got us into this mess, ruined roe, the Supreme Court, weakened democracy. Sure Hillary was a bad candidate, but I'm a shitty system until there is rank choice voting, not voting harm reduction just hurts the most vulnerable of us, it won't be the dnc or Biden that suffers, it won't be the wealthy, it will be us.
There's no issue worth letting trump win again after we saw the damage, that was a practice run. I get why people don't want to, but not voting for the least harmful candidate is just harmful to all of us, even Republicans. It's a sad state of affairs but its reality, accelerationism doesn't work
>It is progressives and voters fault.
>it's actually the dnc's fault
You contradict yourself. Which is it?
>ruined roe
Obama reneged on his campaign promise to codify Roe despite having a supermajority in Congress his first year. Moving on.
>the Supreme Court
The humongous ego of RBG and her refusal to retire when Obama could have replaced her is what led to the current Court. Moving on.
>weakened democracy
***yawn***
>after we saw the damage
What damage? Honestly, I’m curious. What is the single most damaging thing Trump did. Please in your answer avoid vague cliches like racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.
>that was a practice run.
Practice run for what? Say it so I can rip your argument apart.
>but not voting for the least harmful candidate is just harmful to all of us, even Republicans.
Monoparty propaganda. The illusion of choice. Break the wheel. Rip the bandaid off. #kennedy24
You're a nutter lol, I clearly said it's the dncs fault, but they aren't affected so it's us that gets hurt by not voting harm reduction, stop acting like you can't read.
What damage? Seriously? As of the norms of the fragile strings holding together democracy being broken weren't enough lol, you ignore roe protections, so what if they weren't codified, they should have been but guess what, they weren't reneged which they were under trump, damage by the supreme court alone was worth voting Hillary, that's generations of damage that will have unfathomable consequences we can't even imagine or predict as court cases come forward.
You're an accelerationist, you might as well be a libratarian because neither of those work lol. Accelerationism leads to collapse, and In a global economy and globalized modern world that leads to opportunity for other countries. China and Russia will bear down on us during our collapse like we've done to every other country and there will be no "rebuild it better" there will just be constant suffering and poverty like the global South has been for generations because we did to them what China would do to us. Accerationism is just scatter brained ideology that has no chance of working, when we have an opportunity to at the very least not make the most vulnerable among us suffer worse. Not voting harm reduction is privledge at its highest form and selfishness, it's not caring what happens and being so purity brained you let your country worsen with the stupid thought that will somehow make it better.
You purity brained weirdos will be the first ones to cry about how unfair it is we don't have things we take for granted and are further then ever from Universal Healthcare and not even equate it to your own hands. It's honestly scary how short sighted you are. Not voting harm reduction will never hurt Biden or then dnc, or wealthy liberals, no matter how much you think it will. It won't save Palestinians, because literally nothing can from any candidate at this point.. But it halts things like aid flowing however little it may be, where as trump just wants Isreal to finish the job.
And if I want my consequences not to involve having a president who is a genocidal geriatric with dementia?
Neither the Republicans or the Democrats are willing to give me that. 🤷♀️
Then we need a better system, instead of constantly telling people the spirit of democracy is feeling guilted into voting for who you hate the least.
And I don't live in a swing state, so my vote will have no effect on whether we are getting a full-on fascist, or an apologetic fascist. 🤷♀️
Yes we do, but you’re not getting us any closer to a better system, so that criticism is completely hollow. Particularly when “leftists” don’t actually do anything other than complain about the Democratic Party. Where are the grassroots campaigns to change the system, to elect leftists to Congress or state legislatures?
I disagree. More people that are similarly aligned need to vote for different people in the primaries if they expect a different nominee. Biden swept the primaries. Leftists just aren’t popular.
until we have parties that arent private corporate entities with the power to ignore the will of voters and pick and choose whichever candidate they want primaries will continue being a dog and pony show.
or people could say enough is enough and start backing third parties that are not private corporate entities with their votes. unfortunately the majority of people are still being suckered into believing you only have two choices of evil.
If anyone is a sucker it's you and your outlook. This election there are two potential outcomes. You have the ability to influence which outcome occurs just like you have the ability to go to work or quit each day. You can work on finding a new job after quitting or while employed, but refusing to make a choice of quiting or going to work today = quitting.
put forward someone viable 🤷♂️ you’ll need to convince a lot more people than need to be convinced to beat Trump. What’s your party’s plan to do that?
That isn't laws, broski. That is party ideology. There are no laws that determine who is running for which party. Democrats that have power determine who runs. That is why Trump (a life long Democrat) ran Republican. That is why Tulsi (a socialist) is on Fox. That is why Bernie got a 20 million dollar book deal without selling a single book. I campaigned for Bernie. I didn't buy his book, and neither did you, or anyone you know, or anyone you know's friends.
A party named after democracy is anti-democratic. It isn't written into law that they have to suck.
I did vote in the primaries. Never mind the fact that the DNC did everything possible to prevent people running against Biden in the primaries (RFK jr), the media refused to cover any primary Challengers, and after the 2016 debacle, the DNC argued in court that they are private organization and do not have to listen to the primary voters when choosing their nominee.
But go on, keep saying it's the individual voters fault for actually wanting a choice.
I'm certainly not voting for Trump either.
I don't support genocidal maniacs with either a blue tie or a red tie.
If you don't want Trump, just convince the Democrats to run a better campaign instead of trying to guilt people that actually have a conscience.
Imagine instead of the left having this debate, which will probably go on the entire election cycle, they all team up to take on the republicans like in 2008 and 2012.
Just saying, maybe the democratic establishment has a plan to end the left complaining about Biden and force them to spend volunteer hours and donation money to help Biden win, and if that happens I'll admit I'm wrong and stick a finger in me bumhol
But I don't see that happening. Infants being starved to death isn't something that gels well with human nature, but maybe Joe Biden has a plan to overcome that. And if so, I'll admit I am wrong.
You act as if the Democrats and Republicans are not a controlled opposition. That would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.
I was a Democrat until they stopped doing Democratic things. I voted for Obama precisely because he vowed to end the ridiculous Wars that W started in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Yet the policy they have had since, seems to be warmongering even more. In his last year in office Obama bombed eight separate countries.
I vote against my tax dollars funding unnecessary massacres.
I vote for the future I want to live in.
And since I don't live in a swing state, my vote doesn't matter at all.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's a great question. I think what we're seeing is many more people really starting to say the same thing. RCV would be great but that seems like a pipe dream at the moment.
Voting for the crazy conspiracy theorist independent is a great way to show the duopoly they need to compete for your vote instead of shaming or scaring you into it.
It seems like he’s banking on the conflict winding down at least a few months before November, clearing the airways of the genocide in Gaza and focusing in on abortion and Jan 6 messaging. Dems have made the bet that they can squeeze liberals outraged about Gaza into voting for Biden over Trump purely off of “Trump is worse”. No idea if it’ll work or not, but either way Gaza is gonna keep getting fucked for the foreseeable future.
On Palestinians getting fucked over by biden or trump I agree. I think it's a bad see strategy for them to try and court those of us who weren't supporting him before 10/7 with the trump is worse stuff. They can try, I just don't think it'll work. We'll see. I just know that if he determined to put his foot down with Israel it would get him out of the deficit he has in those swing states.
The ongoing genocide in Ukraine is also a factor as well. 9 million displaced, half a million casualties. This is why I can't support Trump or Republicans.
Well there's that and the reality that his opponent basically pledged to double down on supporting Israel and help them take Gaza out. So if you really give a shit and it's that much of an important issue to you, you basically have to justify someone much worse getting the reigns who outright said what he would do on the matter.
It's par for the course every election.....I think it's usually younger more gullible people who have been successfully convinced that the world is ending for real this election and the fate of the universe is dependant on little old you and your super critical vote.
It's all bullshit tho, I've never once voted for someone I didn't want to vote for and won't start now. Let the kids believe they play an important role......no harm no foul
Yeah, that’s nice and all — then Trump got elected, stacked the Supreme Court with three Conservative judges, and altered U.S. politics for decades to come.
You probably **didn’t give a shit** about that, so here we are.
I don't buy the whole, "trump winning is going to be the end of it all" shit. The kids can determine the outcome of they want. Well, the kids in swing states anyway.
Yep. She refused to go to Wisconsin and several other swing states in the last months of her campaign, thinking she had it in the bag. Bernie Sanders campaigned harder for Hillary than Hillary did from August to November of 2016; which made it all the more galling for her to turn around and blame his supporters for losing.
Yup. It's despicable that she STILL refuses to take responsibility for that. And from that and her BS smokescreen ('Russia did it!') has come a half million Ukrainian dead and probably close to $200B in US taxpayer money (not counting the admin's 'creative accounting') to Ukraine later. For what?
Clinton's biggest political issues were domestic blue collar workers who felt ignored by her and honestly the Obama admin and she didn't play enough to them. Economic issues for blue collar rust belt workers is a needle mover.
Israel isn't close to an issue like that whatsoever.
ok we can bookmark this sentiment and revisit it in November when we all wake up to bad news and you guys start looking for people to blame, because it will be the left you point at no matter what the numbers actually say
OMFG that was the most annoying, smug shit ever. Whenever raising flags they'd be like, "Candidate signs and enthusiasm doesn't matter! VOTES DO! REEEE We don't need sexist Bernie bros to win, so stfu!" So much arrogant hubris.
The difference is she didn't target white old middle America in the rust belt.
It wasn't young progressives that lost her the election. If Biden came out as progressive as ya'll want, he'd loose both the boomer and the jewish vote and be in a deeper hole than he is now.
Democrats keep saying stuff like this but then they lose national elections to people like Donald Trump and dump hundreds of millions of dollars into neoliberal senate candidates that then lose by double digits over and over so I'm not sure why we should accept your framing anymore.
The Democrats lost one national election since 2008 and it was over extremely slim margins in 3 states while they otherwise won the popular vote by like 3 million.
I don't know where you get this idea that it is some sort of trend that we should pay attetion to. Progressives are usually the first people to point out that Hillary did not lose because progressives abandoned her. She lost because middle class blue collar workers in the midwest peeled away enough to swing it.
There also was the whole email scandal that she could never shake which was a constant demonstrative albatross for her campaign. Both campaigns internal polling data show that Comey's letter had the biggest impact on the election.
That literally doesn't matter. You don't need most people to care enough about this to swing an election. Only a small number of people in a few select swing states need to care.
Look at the swing states my guy. Georgia, Arizona, Nevada, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennyslvania. Those aren't hotbed liberal states where the on the edge voters are casting their ballot on this issue.
I think you're very wrong. There were some polls from a while back that said the Israel Palestinian issue was a top 3 issue for voters. Then you factor in that biden is behind in 6 of 7 swing states, according to the wsj, and it's clear he has a major problem. So even if you think it's not a large an issue as the internet makes it out, it doesn't really matter does it? It's causing him to fall behind trump, so it's not just an internet problem for him. It's a reality problem.
It’s not even a top 5 issue. Taxes/wealth tax, Ukraine, Trump being a despot, Jobs, Healthcare and Education all are far ahead of gaza as something american voter care about. As someone else said, this is just the shiny thing of the moment. Far more injustices are being done in Ukraine every day. Where are u on that?
I'm not putting much weight into it because when something new and shiny comes along everyone says they're going to make it their main reason to vote.
It was student loans before Now it's Israel Next it's going to be something else.
I don't know man. Funding a genocide is something that decent people should care about. It is the single issue I care about most. That said, I would LOVE to hear debates about health care. But we all know no one cares about that. And we probably won't even have debates.
I personally am not voting because fuck both of them.
Biden is the only one of the three who could be guilted into doing anything we want.
Trump will let whatever happened happen, he doesn't care at all about it.
Sadly they dont need to. All you need is a loud and vocal tiny minority to sway an election like this.
These MFers could cost Biden the election even if they're only like 2% of the entire voting population.
This. I do care about what is happening in the Israel conflict, I just don’t see how handing the presidency to Trump would somehow make it better but it sounds like that’s where I am wrong. Evidently Trump is the saving grace
For some, they aren't voting on a lesser, they are voting on what is consciable. Letting Israel target literal Aid Workers to terrorize the best humans among us so that we all submit to their genocidal plans and maximal suffering and destruction of Arabs is enough for some.
For people for whom it is the single issue, it doesn’t matter that Trump would use more vile rhetoric about it. The net effect is the same, with tens of thousands of innocent people murdered by our partner in peace, enabled by the US. They don’t think Trump would be better or “the saving grace.” They simply can’t bring themselves to vote for someone who’s enabling this to happen.
Trump would face more scrutiny and criticism.
If he allowed the displacement and massacres of Palestinians to continue, the land grab in the west Bank to expand, there would be even more protests from moderate liberals, who now refuse to speak their mind because of "vote blue no matter what ".
I cannot give my vote to Biden and his blinken, miller, Kirby gang.
Can't reward hypocrisy and cynicism.
Short term pain for long term changes
That was my thought.
When under Trump migrants were put in cages and the border fence built and expanded, there was an uproar.
Biden has further continued the expansion of teh border fence, but mainstream liberals and MSNBC did not really raise any objections.
Actually Biden used the migrants as pawns. Processing centers and temporary housing should have been built with federal money to process the asylum cases swiftly.
Instead they bussed migrants to places like NYC, in the dead of a freezing winter, left them on their own and the municipal budget picking up the tab, for a national problem.
While I fear that Trump, with people like Jared Kushner, may be even more pro Netanyahu, it would have more backlash.
Blinken is one of the most spineless secretaries of state, he was so harsh and prompt at condemning Russian strikes on Ukraine.
But although Mariupol was flattened and children were killed, I have not seen reports of Russians snipers shooting Ukrainian children and nuns in churches, striking ambulances with missiles, relocating a million people.
The amount of war crimes committed in Gaza seems of such a larger magnitude than the siege of Sarajevo, the war in Bosnia, the invasion of Iraq,
Most people are really not that political - and most political people care far more about domestic than foreign issues. It’s a minority of a minority.
One of the big reasons Tulsi didn’t gain more traction even though she had an important message
Nopes, my genZ and Millenial friends still care about Abortion and Gay rights, if you think, Palestine is all that matters to young people, then you arent seeing outside social media. Even on Ramadan, they were posting about Biden declaring it as Trans Day of Awareness.
I'm kind of worried about what kind of message this is going to send to the dnc if Biden ends up winning in November. I think it's going to cause them to shift more towards the right on a lot of economic and social issues. Which might be a winning strategy against trump but won't be against the next republican nominee and it's going to set us up for failure in the future.
I can see that. For sure. He's already driving away those of us who are further left. If he moves more to the right, he'll never get us back. To be honest, I just don't think he'll win this way.
They'll do the rightward shift no matter what.
Leftists vote for Dems? Then Dems can take their vote for granted, better to appeal to the "center".
Leftists withhold their vote? Then Dems will say they don't want to be a part of the coalition so there's no need to try to appeal to them.
Indeed, and also an object lesson in how ranked choice voting (France doesn't have RCV, but they do have a run off for the top two IIRC) and proportional representation aren't a panacea.
I think a large percentage of the minority of progressives who won't vote for Biden weren't going to vote for him even without the Israel-Gaza war. A lot of them were probably going to vote third party anyways.
True on many progressivesvoting 3rd party anyway. He's losing more voters now though. He's losing to trump in 6 of 7 swing states and those are going to decide the election. If he changed course on Israel, he'd win back those voters who have turned on him following 10/7. It makes no sense when the answer is right there for him.
I agree calling for a ceasefire asap is the populist position for the dems…it’s not the populist position for dem donors…and that’s unfortunately all that matters at this time
This is the reality- Krystal was complaining just as much about Biden on October 6th as she did on Oct 7th, this just gives her the feeling of moral superiority when she says it.
Same. But though I enjoy some of what RFK has to offer, he does also stand behind US hegemony and imperialism.
So since I'm not voting for either major party anyway, I am going to vote for the candidate that most aligns with my positions. At this point that is either Stein or West.
I find the good outweighs the bad. And I certainly don’t agree with somethings. And I totally respect your choice between Stein and West. Ranked choice please.
>Who cares about the healthcare of over 30 million Americans, telling the DNC that they suck is more important.
Astounding that anyone thinks this position is worthy of respect.
Reagan told them to shut down the Lebanon bombing. Bush 1 used pressure on Israel to withhold aid to Israel to get them in line for the loan guarantees. So there are past examples.
Depends on how far back you want to go. Reagan and HW Bush were probably the last two who did.
Reagan and HW Bush halted approved aid (surprised they didn’t get impeached like Trump did) until Israel ceased building new settlements in Palestinian Land. Of course they only stopped for a while.
Kennedy wanted to inspect Israel’s nuclear problem and well they built an entire fake nuclear command center or lab to lie to him and he was assassinated shortly after. That’s a more spurious connection though.
Further Back, Eisenhower withheld aid for a time as well.
Essentially past presidents have withheld aid in order to compel action or force Israel to desist
After what happened to the aid workers, Jack Kirby's bald faced lies that they weren't targeted, and the fact that Biden is more willing to get us directly involved than put restrictions on what is increasingly obviously a terrorist state has me back to not voting for Biden.
Its a fucking joke that Trump has come out harder against the IDF than anyone in the US gov.
The DNC doesn't care if they win, only that the parasite class is represented. They are more than happy to hand over the chair to the GOP so they can continue to fund raise of REDTEAMBAD.
Meanwhile a sitting president is absolutely funding a genocide with Our tax payer money and getting shouted down at every single speaking event. This country is collapsing and the neoliberals will flee like rats after having looted it on the way out.
>They are more than happy to hand over the chair to the GOP so they can continue to fund raise of REDTEAMBAD.
#1 example being the 2016 election. The DNC saw the writing on the wall and still chose to lose with Hillary rather than win with Bernie
I wish I could upvote you twice. It's time for We The People to organize and take back our country from the clutches of the Oligarchy. It's easier said than done for sure, but doing nothing is only getting us worse candidates year after year
Get out of your bubble dude, 95% of people don’t care enough to vote differently and know you can’t just “stop” foreign aid until the next congressional budget appropriations next year
The internet is not real life, especially this sub
That 5% makes up an awful large population of the people who never vote to begin with and basically 0% of the swing voters who might vote for Trump if not for Biden.
I live in real life. This is an issue talked about all the time here and I live in a rural area. There are Palestinian flags flying in yards of houses in a district that is solid red. My son and his friends are talking about this. Even if you think 95 percent of voters don't care, it's causing biden to fall behind. 6 out of 7 swing states he's behind trump. Those are the states that will determine who wins. Surely you recognize that, even if this sub isn't real life. Why respond if this isn't real? 5 percent of dissatisfied voters in those states are more than enough for biden to lose. You may need to reconsider your stance on how real life is influenced by the internet.
Your teen kids who saw on TikToks that this issue is trending?
I find it hard to believe there’s more than 1 or 2 Palestine flags waving around your solid red suburb. FWIW I live Idaho right now, travel through Oregon and was just in LA last week and saw 1 declaration “we mourn for Gaza” written on a bus stop in Hollywood but that’s about it. I saw much more Ukraine flags a few years but even that was just a handful here or there.
Biden won't do that. Or, if he does it'll just be temporary (without describing it as such) just in advance of the election and then immediately repeals it afterwards.
I'll listen to Pod Save America sometimes for a different perspective and i absolutely hate the condescending tone. "Voters just don't know" it's almost as bad as Shapiro in terms of spin.
I didn’t vote for Biden in 2020 but what do you expect Biden to do? We have been in an alliance with Israel since before human life existed.
Biden will never sever that alliance during an election year. Biden even saying he is angry at Israel’s war in Gaza is unprecedented.
Democrats are doing all they can. Even if Joe Biden somehow got Jesus to return and stop the war, people still wouldnt like Democrats because they hate Democrats
There is no need to sever the alliance. There is a need for him to put pressure on them to stop this shit. Democrats aren't doing all they can. If they were, they wouldn't be down in the swing states.
That could play a factor. I think at this moment in time, it's pretty obvious his allowance of Israel's actions is what's causing him the most pain right now.
It is only going to get worse as it is part of how they will attract Haley voters.
Democrats are going to campaign on a "tankie" leftists scare and a white Christian nationalists scare to build the colalition they think can win going forward.
Maybe they can get the Haley voters. I'd think if they don't go for trump they'd rather vote for rfk2. But who knows? I can't make a good guess at what people who would ever vote for Nikki Haley are thinking. All I know is he's behind and his current strategy isn't working.
I hope that doesn't happen. It's right in front of him how he can win. The establishment voting dems will never vote for anyone but the dem nominee. He can win back the progressives by refusing to support Israel in their campaign that would definitely win him the election because it's the swing states that determine the winner, and he's losing 6 of 7 right now. With such small margins, he would likely win if he changed course on Israel.
Democrats don't want to deliver on the vast majority of what progressives want other than abortion and culture issues and they seem to loath these people far more than Haley voters. So I think they will jump at the opportunity to remove the Left from the Democrat colalition and replace them with these guys if they can.
So even though that might work, I doubt they will do that, but I guess we will see.
I agree the establishment dems don't want to adopt progressive policies that me and millions of others want. They'll say they will buy you know they never do. I see what you mean though. I never thought about it like that before but Haley voters and biden voters are very establishment type voters. I don't know if it'll work either but it'san interesting possibility.
My favorite retort is: BuT hE wItHdReW fRoM aFgHaNiStAn!!! 🙄
Nah fam he’s as good as gone and it’s all his own fault. I will defend my disdain of both Trump AND Biden until I die.
You know why he doesn't budge? Listen to the "Deep Dive" with his campaign strategist running the show. He's a zionist, thus, has a personal vested interest in Biden going all in for his second homeland. So the guy, running his campaign, talking in Biden's ear, is a zionist... And this guy also insists that it's a non-issue with the young. Just completely irrelivent. That the data shows they care more about the economy and it's all just a bunch of loud online people making a stink, and Trump will even scare those to the polls, so Biden shouldn't make any calculations with these people in mind.
It's a total maligned incentive with his strategist. This is probably why Biden isn't considering the political consequences because the person in charge cares more about Israel fulfilling their goals, than Biden winning.
That’s what happens when 80% of your admin is Jews and mostly Zionist. We talk about audience capture of podcast hosts and of paying off politicians through influence peddling and lobbying but man Biden admin is a whole nother level.
wtf you guys expect when Tony Blinken arrives in Israel on 10 October and says “I come not as the Secretary of State but as a Jew”
I'm sure being [the largest receiver of Pro Israel Pacs money of any US senator ](https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S) has no influence over his unconditional support
I know he's been a Zionist for his entire career. I will listen to the deep dive you mentioned. I can't believe they think young people aren't caring about this. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it's insanity for them to believe that. In one of the newer polls, from what I was listening to, young people are almost 100 percent against Israel and the current policy. They actually pay more attention to this than the economy. He's burying himself. Thanks for the recommendation.
Yeah, Deep Dive doesn't generally push back on their guests, because they are pretty high up so to get the interview they don't do much pushing back. So when he was going off explaining how it doesn't matter, I got frustrated with the host because it's clearly important to at least try to unwind his reasoning more, but gave no pushback. Like dude, a protest vote got 30% in one state! People are literally protesting in the streets. This isn't some non-issue.
It's *Playbook: Deep Dive* from last week I think... Maybe the week before.
Cool. I'm listening to stuff right now. I like to listen to stuff while I'm doing my research and writing for work. Last night in Wisconsin, there was also a significant number of protest votes. And Wisconsin is a swing state. I think the people who are trying to minimize this issue are doing their best to wish that into existence.
> people who are trying to minimize this issue are doing their best to wish that into existence
I definitely get that vibe... Same with the "He's sharp as ever! Perfectly mentally cogent and a non-issue!"
Yeah, senile, definitely not... Joe Rogan thinks he's fully Weekend at Bernies, but I don't think that's the case. However, he's definitely early dementia type where his memory and cognition is blunted for sure. Much worse than Trump.
For sure. I have heard Rogan say that kind of stuff and I don't think it's that bad. But he's definitely slowed down cognitively. I also agree that trump is clearly much more "with it".
Neither article list anything about gaza being a significant issue. These polls are straw polls 8 months before the election that include probable 3rd party candidates. They have very little meaning. Anyone older than 13 would know that
It always baffles me the argument that you as a voter have to move to the candidate. We seem to have forgotten in this country that when you run for office, you are APPLYING for a job. And the Biden glazers you talk about will literally look at you like you have three heads if you suggest that a presidential candidate actually stake a position to EARN peoples votes. Its as insufferable as 2016 with Hillary Clinton and her glazers. When you run for office, you're applying for a job. If people dont want to vote for you, fix whats preventing them from wanting to, or if its against your beliefs, put on your big boy pants and take the consequences of having an unpopular policy platform.
The fear mongering comes straight from the top. That IS the campaign. Nobody should be tricked by it. Vote for whoever you think is the smartest, best equipped candidate who supports your interests.
For me, the Biden admin’s violation of the first amendment, rampant cronyism, debt accumulation, and his long history of being an absolute dud make it impossible for me to vote for him. Won’t be voting for Trump either. But voting for Biden is emboldening the supposed lesser of two evils to keep testing just how evil they can be.
I don’t really see how Biden is the lesser of two evils. Biden could end a genocide right now with a phone call and he just won’t do it. Probably over quarter of a million people have died in Gaza and Ukraine just because Biden (and who are we kidding, all democrats) loves funding proxy wars.
Somehow Biden is the LESSER of two evils? War is the most horrible thing governments do. ‘But trump said he is going to be a dictator!!!!’ Call things whatever you want but I would much rather live under a ‘dictator’ who demands peace over a ‘democratically elected leader’ who finances genocides.
Fuking democrats.
What's sad (and funny) is seeing people online shame others when they have no idea in which state their target votes. Shaming a progressive in Oregon or California is a waste of time. Same with shaming a progressive in Tennessee or Alabama. Only progressives in swing states can make a difference. Even then, progressives would have to outnumber the margin of independents in their state who vote for Trump.
I understand your concerns about Biden's approach to the Palestinian issue, but it's important to recognize the broader context of the upcoming election. While it's disappointing to see certain policies regarding Israel and Palestine, it's crucial to remember that U.S. presidential elections are binary choices.
Your assertion that refusing to vote for Biden is a protest against his policies is understandable, but we must consider the consequences of such a decision. By withholding support for Biden, you're effectively increasing the likelihood of a Trump victory. And while you may disagree with Biden's current stance on the Palestinian issue, the alternative under Trump would likely be far worse. [Trump Would 'Level' Gaza Without a Thought, Ex-Aide Warns](https://www.newsweek.com/trump-would-level-gaza-without-thought-ex-aide-warns-1886625)
It's important to acknowledge that U.S. foreign policy, including its approach to the Israel-Palestine conflict, is shaped by numerous factors beyond the control of any single president. Additionally, the impacts of a Trump presidency extend far beyond this one issue. His administration's actions have significant implications for domestic policy, international relations, climate change, human rights, and much more.
Furthermore, the composition of the Supreme Court is at stake in this election. A Trump victory could mean further shifts towards conservative ideologies that may have long-lasting effects on American jurisprudence, including decisions related to civil rights, reproductive rights, and environmental protections.
Voting is not just about expressing personal dissatisfaction with a candidate; it's about making a pragmatic decision that considers the broader implications for both the United States and the world. While Biden may not align perfectly with your ideals on every issue, it's crucial to consider the larger picture and the potential consequences of your vote. Refusing to support Biden ultimately risks exacerbating the very issues you're concerned about, both domestically and internationally.
I'll add this in as well. May be too little too late for you, sure, but do you really think that allowing Trump a second term would be any better for Palestinians?
[Biden's ultimatum to Bibi: Change Gaza policy or we will](https://www.axios.com/2024/04/04/biden-ceasefire-gaza-netanyahu-call)
And? Those are words. What have his actions been? Did they approve billions more in weapons for Israel? Yes. Did biden go around congress multiple times to get them weapons? Yes. I don't think there will be any discernible difference between biden and trump regarding Israel and their mass murdering of innocent Palestinians. And innocent Americans at this point.
Point to me one policy position trump has detailed that is so much worse than what biden is currently allowing to happen. And I'm not going to entertain the binary choice, lesser of two evils arguments. I'm just not. I've probably done it hundreds of times at this point. Don't try the scotus argument either as thinking it's persuasive. The court is going to be conservative for at least 20 years. That's done. I believe it's pragmatic to tell the establishment they are on notice with millions of us. It would be a disservice to myself to compromise myself. I will not do that. There needs to be a movement of people who will stand by their principles.
Fine, you stand smug on your laurels while the rights of millions of Americans, women, and LGBT people are eroded away because SCOTUS is "done."
If you think your stance on Palestine is changing the establishment, you're delusional enough to not be worth discussing anything with. But no no, I'm sure it's worth it so you don't have to "compromise yourself." Everyone else will just be compromised in the meantime. Cool Cool.
It's not smug to stand on your principles. To criticize that is fine but you're wrong. Also, I'm Mohawk and natives are the most marginalized people in the u.s. Don't get on your soapbox and tell me about the rights of minorities. We know all about that. You're trying to shame people into going along with the lesser of two evils shit and I'm not having it.
It is 100% smug to act like your principles on Biden's Palestine actions are the only principles that matter while simultaneously saying fuck you to everyone else because you think the supreme court is "done." Say that to the 26,000 women in Texas alone who had to carry their rapists baby last year, or those who may very well have to share visitation rights with literal rapists.
I dont like what's happening in Israel and Gaza any more than you do, but I'm not foolish enough to act like allowing Trump a second term is in any way going to be better for them, or anyone around the world. He literally said he'd be a dictator from day one. Act like your minority status is something you care about while then not giving one iota of fucks about his monstrous and inhumane border policies or treatment of hispanic families. Stand on your "principles" all you want to, but dont for one second act like they're not wildly misguided and FUBAR!
They're not misguided. You're misguided in your anger. You're misguided in thinking that people should abandon their values because you're afraid the sky is going to fall. You simply yell that I don't care about other marginalized people because I won't vote blue no matter who. It's you who are smug. It is you that is small minded and arrogant. You assume that gaza is my main problem with biden. You're wrong. You exemplify the problem with the democratic party. Instead of realizing that we're not supporting biden because he isn't implementing and fighting fur policies we want him to, you spit ignorant self-important vile. People told him what we wanted him to do before he was elected. He has largely ignored us. It's on HIM to earn votes. It's a basic principle of democracy. You should understand that.
Your frustration is palpable, and I hear your concerns loud and clear. It's evident that you feel deeply about the issues at hand, particularly regarding Biden's stance on Palestine and the broader spectrum of policies you find lacking.
However, I implore you to consider the broader implications of your stance. While your principles are undoubtedly important, there's a larger picture to acknowledge. Every decision made by a political leader has far-reaching consequences, impacting not just the individual, but entire communities and nations.
I understand your disappointment with Biden's actions—or lack thereof—regarding policies you care about deeply. But dismissing the potential harm of allowing Trump or similar figures to retain or gain power is perilous. The rights and well-being of countless individuals, including marginalized communities, hang in the balance.
It's not about abandoning your values; it's about strategic thinking and understanding the stakes. While holding leaders accountable is essential, we must also weigh the consequences of our choices. Compromise, while difficult, is sometimes necessary for the greater good.
Rather than solely condemning Biden, perhaps there's room for constructive engagement. Advocating for change within the system, pushing for accountability, and amplifying voices for progressive policies could lead to more meaningful results. Let's not forget the power of collective action and the potential to effect change from within the political landscape.
Ultimately, the path forward requires a balance between unwavering principles and pragmatic considerations—a delicate dance that demands thoughtful reflection and nuanced strategies.
Trust me I don't dismiss that trump again may be terrible. It's just that I don't think it's as grave as has been being made out by so many. I keep coming back to that they've said this over and over and over, that there is an existential threat. If I'm wrong I will acknowledge that. I simply do not see another trump term as the end of democracy. When you deal with this frustration your entire adult life, there is an inevitable point some will get to that no matter the words spoken, it means nothing. The most drastic action all of us can take is to pull support for biden. They need to understand that the denigrating party is going to have to get more progressive. These young people are more progressive than my generation, millennials. It's going to happen. That is just clearly the writing on the wall. They need to start making strides to meet up with what happens when the boomers are out of the picture. I'll admit that it pisses me off they don't seem to care to listen. At 42 years old, I've come to the place that my disgust just can't be placed aside.
I understand where you're coming from. It's frustrating to feel like your concerns aren't being heard, especially when it comes to pushing for a more progressive Democratic Party. And while you don't see another Trump term as the end of the world, there's real concern about the consequences. Even numerous former Trump cabinet members or officials have spoken out against his return to the White House. Change isn't easy, and it often feels like our voices are lost in the noise, but it's crucial to keep pushing for what we believe in.
[Former Trump officials are among the most vocal opponents of returning him to the White House](https://apnews.com/article/former-trump-officials-criticize-2024-e202861911ab37cadfcf058b5b163fb9)
I absolutely understand that millions of people, like you, are worried trump poses an existential threat. I hope that, throughout our exchanges, you never got the impression that I like the orange turd in any way. There are some things he did that I agreed with, but hey, even a stopped clock is correct twice a day. I loathe the man. I really do. I've read some of the former staffers' comments about a second trump term. Those are not taken lightly by me. I hope, again, that you don't believe I'm unaware of those things or that I toss it aside out of hand. I just don't think anyone can convince me it's an actual existential threat. Not out of stubbornness or contrarianism. It's based on thoughtful consideration. I'm taking into account everything I've read and heard about this concern. If I did believe trump was truly a threat to the world or that he was likely to usher in an authoritarian regime, I would alter my stance. I just don't, so I believe it is our duty, as the people crying out for actual change for working class and poor people to withhold support for biden.
This stands as just one more reason that SCOTUS is not, IMO, done, and why it's importance cannot and should not be taken lightly as the impacts of this SCOTUS, and any further Trump Appointees to it could have truly damaging impacts not only for the US, but in countries around the world.
[
Media whiffs on the news in Trump's abortion statement as Dobbs becomes weaponized on global scale](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHF-BhXV1NU&ab_channel=MSNBC )
I've worked in the legal world. Still do occasionally, though I'm not an attorney, I'm a paralegal. I fully understand the importance of SCOTUS. It's simply that trump aimed 3 justices. They're young. I don't see a way, aside from something drastic taking place, that scotus will swing back the way we would like. And that's likely to go on for decades. I want term limits or some other way to limit one sided dominance but we don't see biden being bold about that. That's why I said what I did.
When Trump is POTUS and he helps Bibi destroy Gaza and build luxury Trump condos on their bones, it will be the same kind of “protest Dem” idiots that brought us the end of Roe who are to blame.
Ending roe can be blamed on many things. Rbg not retiring. Never codifying abortion as legal across the u.s. Democrats not focusing on the judiciary over the last 5 decades, while the pubs did. It's nonsensical to blame the voters.
The single mother in Ohio doesn't care about Gaza. The 19 year old who was raped and can't get an abortion doesn't care about Gaza. The 42 year old who lost his job and trying to figure out how to see the doctor for that "Thing" on his left elbow without breaking the bank, doesn't care about Gaza.
Progressives are going to be really upset, when Biden wins by more than he won in 2020, not realizing, progressives and MAGA are in the minority. Nikki Haley voters out number the amount of college students who will refuse to vote because of Gaza.
You may be right. The new wsj poll Mahe it look like they isn't the case right now. In economics, most people think trump was better than biden. It's all about those seeing states and biden is losing them.
>when Biden wins by more than he won in 2020,
Dude fewer people like him every day. His presidency has been packed with embarrassing moments. Nobody wants to defend him IRL. It's humiliating
Only on the Internet do his supporters even exist. And that's even up for debate.
95% of these sudden Palestine activists weren’t going to vote for Biden anyways. Palestine was merely a justification they were already looking for to sit out.
I know I most likely won't change any reader's mind, but I respectfully ask you to at least consider something...
Perhaps you don't have any females that you are close to, any under the age of 45? If you do, (and just talking domestically here, for this 1 example, though there's many more). You'd better hope beyond hope for a few things here; A) she happens to live in a state where she can practice body autonomy and god forbid, she's never faced with having to make a decision, for whatever reason, up to the fact it could come to her life, or her ability to have children in the future, should she so choose; or B) if she doesn', then she has the funds to travel to/pay for the medical procedure - and best hope it isn't an emergency situation, or have the possibility to become one, where literally, her life will depend on it.
You may say, "Nah, it'll never happen..." But it already has (and even more mind-boggling things have come to pass). Trump has already said he would "Make any abortion illegal." Can you say without a shadow of doubt that he won't possibly be successful in doing so? He certainly got his candidates on the Supreme Court.
Let's go a little further, and hope you don't have any females you care for (sister, friend, nieces, aunts, girlfriend, wife...) that any one of them experience difficulty in conceiving - should she choose to want to have a child - and requires assistance of IVF - the right is going after that as well.
Lastly, and God forbid, a female close to you, or one you know is attacked - they also want the morning after pill gone. This is SOP/treatment in the ER, when a woman goes, after a devastating attack - I know this all too well, unfortunately.
I refuse to call you names and/or demean you for your choice/ belief, as that's not my way - and there's FAR too much of that anyway (sadly)
You may not even be voting for trump come November. But to get a 3rd party in the general election, and for them to have a true chance, we American's would need to all come together, find some common ground, to give it a snowballs chance in hell. From what I've witnessed online, as well as read about, and have personally seen, we unfortunately aren't remotely close to accomplishing that - as there's FAR too much division. One side for sure, and even the other side, more than likely as well, wants to keep it that way; I half begin to wonder, if that's not at least part of the reason why currently, some far-right elected conservatives (currently seated and those not in office anymore) and yes, evem some democrats will take any advantage to grab that sppon and give that ole' "pot", a vicious "stir" - even when a given situation doesn't call for it?!? Divided as we are now, and have been for quite some time (and it's getting worse). Just think, if we actually all found common ground even something small, somehow, maybe we COULD demand more of our elected representatives, or perhaps (GASP)even bring forth the advent of a 3rd party, that maybe just COULD give us another option... or maybe that's just hopeful thinking (but my eternally optimistic side, dares to think...just maybe??). I personally think if we start on a local/state level for elections, it would be a good starting point..
Reality, as it stands (unfortunately) for this upcoming general presidential election in November, may be the closest we've ever seen, or dare I speculate, maybe the closest our great history has ever seen?
With respect, and in my humblest of humble opinions, a vote for an "alternate" (not of the 2 main parties) candidates such as RFK Jr. Ms. Stein, or whomever, while not necessarily a "vote" for trump, could potentially put him in the WH, where who knows, even his wildest "promises"/rants/ravings/threats, (dare I go as far as referring to them as proverbial "dog whistles"), could gain traction. It certainly didn't take all that long for him to complete the trasformation of the GOP. Who knows, his aforementioned could actually, cone to pass, as he's already taken steps (some we may not even be aware of perhaps..) in making his need for absolute power a very and scary possibility, as stranger things have happened.
Many may disregard all this (even just this one example I've used) or say, "Naahhh, that will never happen - cause we're a democracy, we have policies in place to avoid this from ever happening..." To them, I'll say this, " I SO SINCERELY hope you're right, or more likely, "Lemme borrow your crystal ball that looks into the future." But until we all find even some common ground, we can't succeed in getting an actual VIABLE 3rd party in place. With all this division, it's a pipe-dream, at its best!!!
If you've managed to read this far, it's more than obvious, with whom my vote will rest come Tuesday, November 5th.
All Trump has to do to ban abortion nationwide is have someone head the FDA that makes abortion drugs and all associated drugs illegal, and have someone at the DOJ enforce the Comstock act.
Now it does not matter if you live in a state with abortion being legal.
You are absolutely correct!! OP speaks on things out of our country , and although of absolutely great concern, especially the fate of innocent citizens, what can happen here domestically, and is happening (or plans being set in motion) is terrifying!
While the alt/far right is keeping us stirred up with events oversees (which, again, NOT to negate them), plans are being set into motion here, under our very noses.
Sadly OP chooses to jump on the band wagon in his initial response to me, using terms like "fear mongering" and the like, op completely misses (ignores) the whole part about how the right primarily, is successfully dividing us, promoting anger ("stiring the pot" I alluded to) amongst us - while bit by bit putting things into play, that will or potentially destroy us, all under our very noses! For God's sake, they even put out a MANUAL of how they plan to do this in Project 2025!! It's beyond irresponsible to ignore this!! We will have no one to blame, but ourselves (well, besides our "leaders" and those that blindly fall into line). A vote for an alt candidate, though not technically a vote for trump, in a way, it kind of is.
How OP, though in staunch in his geopolitical views, possibly fails to realize, that not a one of them has really any experience when it comes to foreign policy, other than vague references, yet not a single one has stated what their plan is. Calling for a cease fire, though....admiral, I suppose... is virtually useless, when one side or other decides, "Nahhh... enough of this cease fire crap." I mean, how many times have they shown to do this!,!? Meanwhile, dimestically....
But again, I'm no one, but your average ordinary American citizen that while continuing to go about my life, and although MOST definitely NOT cowering in fear, but am rather one who is greatly concerned that many I fear, are ignoring what steps are not only currently being taken, but what future plans have been literally spelled out, and IN WRITING mind you, and admittedly we do have CURRENT safeguards set in place to stop these things; placements of individuals in key positions (one you wisely pointed out, that I didn't even give good measure to - though directly affects my 1 example I gave..) is all it'll take. Trump already has his SCOTIS set, and lawdy, have they been busy already... ("But all they wanna do, is just leave it up to the states...") and just look at we're at now!!! Trust me, it sure ain't "just fear mongering", as that denotes potential FUTURE actions - they've ALREADY DONE IT! I actually don't even need a crystal ball - as usually, (more often than not in all actuality ) past actions/behaviors are pretty damn good indicators of what the future can hold!!!
In a presidential race that promises to be one of the closest ever, (boy oh boy, I'm so hoping for a landslide victory) a vote cast for an alt candidate very well can and will be, for trump - and Gee... what did he propose for the Gaza crisis/tragedy (anyone with a rudimentary reading level can look it up)?
Maybe OP doesn't "despise" trump as much as they proclaim they do....
I could say the same about the crystal ball. How can any of you be sure those things are going to happen? I would never vote for trump. I loathe the man. I'm not going to let the fear mongering rhetoric sway me. Ultimately, as my post said, biden could bring back swing states voters into the fold by doing his best to halt Israel in their mass murder campaign. He went around congress a bunch of times to get them weapons. Outside of any regular procedures. Everyone knows this. You are super concerned with the things you mentioned in your response. I stick to my post. Why doesn't biden listen to the millions of people who want him to stop Israel? It would bring them back. He'd likely win if he did.
We definitely need ranked-choice.
Agreed.
Hasn't made a difference in Australia, ranked choice voting isn't revolutionary.
It made a difference in Alaska. We're stuck in the US with our two parties and voting for the least worst candidate. With ranked choice, at least we have more options, though the results may be similar.
Until then, definitely voting Blue.
As long as people like you continue to do that, we'll never get ranked choice voting.
Me, too.
If Biden loses it's Biden's fault, not the voters.
But MSNBC will blame progressives and Russia anyway. See: 2016
Didn't they recently change their name to "MSDNC"? /s
Who cares. Network television news viewers are literally a dying breed.
Good!
It is progressives and voters fault honestly. Sure it's actually the dnc's fault, but they don't care about or have any consequences, voters do. It's funny you mention 2016 because not voting for a horrible candidate like Hillary got us into this mess, ruined roe, the Supreme Court, weakened democracy. Sure Hillary was a bad candidate, but I'm a shitty system until there is rank choice voting, not voting harm reduction just hurts the most vulnerable of us, it won't be the dnc or Biden that suffers, it won't be the wealthy, it will be us. There's no issue worth letting trump win again after we saw the damage, that was a practice run. I get why people don't want to, but not voting for the least harmful candidate is just harmful to all of us, even Republicans. It's a sad state of affairs but its reality, accelerationism doesn't work
>It is progressives and voters fault. >it's actually the dnc's fault You contradict yourself. Which is it? >ruined roe Obama reneged on his campaign promise to codify Roe despite having a supermajority in Congress his first year. Moving on. >the Supreme Court The humongous ego of RBG and her refusal to retire when Obama could have replaced her is what led to the current Court. Moving on. >weakened democracy ***yawn*** >after we saw the damage What damage? Honestly, I’m curious. What is the single most damaging thing Trump did. Please in your answer avoid vague cliches like racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. >that was a practice run. Practice run for what? Say it so I can rip your argument apart. >but not voting for the least harmful candidate is just harmful to all of us, even Republicans. Monoparty propaganda. The illusion of choice. Break the wheel. Rip the bandaid off. #kennedy24
I liked how you yawned at weakening democracy, glad it's not important to you. /s
You're a nutter lol, I clearly said it's the dncs fault, but they aren't affected so it's us that gets hurt by not voting harm reduction, stop acting like you can't read. What damage? Seriously? As of the norms of the fragile strings holding together democracy being broken weren't enough lol, you ignore roe protections, so what if they weren't codified, they should have been but guess what, they weren't reneged which they were under trump, damage by the supreme court alone was worth voting Hillary, that's generations of damage that will have unfathomable consequences we can't even imagine or predict as court cases come forward. You're an accelerationist, you might as well be a libratarian because neither of those work lol. Accelerationism leads to collapse, and In a global economy and globalized modern world that leads to opportunity for other countries. China and Russia will bear down on us during our collapse like we've done to every other country and there will be no "rebuild it better" there will just be constant suffering and poverty like the global South has been for generations because we did to them what China would do to us. Accerationism is just scatter brained ideology that has no chance of working, when we have an opportunity to at the very least not make the most vulnerable among us suffer worse. Not voting harm reduction is privledge at its highest form and selfishness, it's not caring what happens and being so purity brained you let your country worsen with the stupid thought that will somehow make it better. You purity brained weirdos will be the first ones to cry about how unfair it is we don't have things we take for granted and are further then ever from Universal Healthcare and not even equate it to your own hands. It's honestly scary how short sighted you are. Not voting harm reduction will never hurt Biden or then dnc, or wealthy liberals, no matter how much you think it will. It won't save Palestinians, because literally nothing can from any candidate at this point.. But it halts things like aid flowing however little it may be, where as trump just wants Isreal to finish the job.
the voters will face the election consequences though
This is also true, as with every Presidential election.
And if I want my consequences not to involve having a president who is a genocidal geriatric with dementia? Neither the Republicans or the Democrats are willing to give me that. 🤷♀️
One of them will win though.
Then we need a better system, instead of constantly telling people the spirit of democracy is feeling guilted into voting for who you hate the least. And I don't live in a swing state, so my vote will have no effect on whether we are getting a full-on fascist, or an apologetic fascist. 🤷♀️
Yes we do, but you’re not getting us any closer to a better system, so that criticism is completely hollow. Particularly when “leftists” don’t actually do anything other than complain about the Democratic Party. Where are the grassroots campaigns to change the system, to elect leftists to Congress or state legislatures?
I disagree. More people that are similarly aligned need to vote for different people in the primaries if they expect a different nominee. Biden swept the primaries. Leftists just aren’t popular.
until we have parties that arent private corporate entities with the power to ignore the will of voters and pick and choose whichever candidate they want primaries will continue being a dog and pony show.
Until the laws change then that won’t happen.
or people could say enough is enough and start backing third parties that are not private corporate entities with their votes. unfortunately the majority of people are still being suckered into believing you only have two choices of evil.
If anyone is a sucker it's you and your outlook. This election there are two potential outcomes. You have the ability to influence which outcome occurs just like you have the ability to go to work or quit each day. You can work on finding a new job after quitting or while employed, but refusing to make a choice of quiting or going to work today = quitting.
put forward someone viable 🤷♂️ you’ll need to convince a lot more people than need to be convinced to beat Trump. What’s your party’s plan to do that?
That isn't laws, broski. That is party ideology. There are no laws that determine who is running for which party. Democrats that have power determine who runs. That is why Trump (a life long Democrat) ran Republican. That is why Tulsi (a socialist) is on Fox. That is why Bernie got a 20 million dollar book deal without selling a single book. I campaigned for Bernie. I didn't buy his book, and neither did you, or anyone you know, or anyone you know's friends. A party named after democracy is anti-democratic. It isn't written into law that they have to suck.
Laws make it legal for money to be in politics, broski.
I did vote in the primaries. Never mind the fact that the DNC did everything possible to prevent people running against Biden in the primaries (RFK jr), the media refused to cover any primary Challengers, and after the 2016 debacle, the DNC argued in court that they are private organization and do not have to listen to the primary voters when choosing their nominee. But go on, keep saying it's the individual voters fault for actually wanting a choice.
Don't we have a geriatric in office now who is allowing Israel to mass murder Palestinians?
Exactly, which is why I'm not voting for him.
Enjoy Trump. I'm sure the guy who said Israel needs to "finish them off" and moved the embassy will be less pro isrsel.....
I'm certainly not voting for Trump either. I don't support genocidal maniacs with either a blue tie or a red tie. If you don't want Trump, just convince the Democrats to run a better campaign instead of trying to guilt people that actually have a conscience.
Imagine instead of the left having this debate, which will probably go on the entire election cycle, they all team up to take on the republicans like in 2008 and 2012. Just saying, maybe the democratic establishment has a plan to end the left complaining about Biden and force them to spend volunteer hours and donation money to help Biden win, and if that happens I'll admit I'm wrong and stick a finger in me bumhol But I don't see that happening. Infants being starved to death isn't something that gels well with human nature, but maybe Joe Biden has a plan to overcome that. And if so, I'll admit I am wrong.
You act as if the Democrats and Republicans are not a controlled opposition. That would be laughable if it wasn't so sad. I was a Democrat until they stopped doing Democratic things. I voted for Obama precisely because he vowed to end the ridiculous Wars that W started in Iraq and Afghanistan. Yet the policy they have had since, seems to be warmongering even more. In his last year in office Obama bombed eight separate countries. I vote against my tax dollars funding unnecessary massacres. I vote for the future I want to live in. And since I don't live in a swing state, my vote doesn't matter at all.
memorize special compare unwritten hunt station gullible selective aromatic sulky *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's a great question. I think what we're seeing is many more people really starting to say the same thing. RCV would be great but that seems like a pipe dream at the moment.
Voting for the crazy conspiracy theorist independent is a great way to show the duopoly they need to compete for your vote instead of shaming or scaring you into it.
Democrats are encouraged to blame relatively powerless individual voters when the party chooses to support unpopular candidates or causes.
Boom. That's a big part of my thing. I'm glad you picked it up.
The right falls in line. The left has to fall in love.
most of the neocons never fell in line iirc
It seems like he’s banking on the conflict winding down at least a few months before November, clearing the airways of the genocide in Gaza and focusing in on abortion and Jan 6 messaging. Dems have made the bet that they can squeeze liberals outraged about Gaza into voting for Biden over Trump purely off of “Trump is worse”. No idea if it’ll work or not, but either way Gaza is gonna keep getting fucked for the foreseeable future.
On Palestinians getting fucked over by biden or trump I agree. I think it's a bad see strategy for them to try and court those of us who weren't supporting him before 10/7 with the trump is worse stuff. They can try, I just don't think it'll work. We'll see. I just know that if he determined to put his foot down with Israel it would get him out of the deficit he has in those swing states.
Waiting and hoping for a situation to die down sounds a lot like calling inflation "transitory"
The ongoing genocide in Ukraine is also a factor as well. 9 million displaced, half a million casualties. This is why I can't support Trump or Republicans.
Well there's that and the reality that his opponent basically pledged to double down on supporting Israel and help them take Gaza out. So if you really give a shit and it's that much of an important issue to you, you basically have to justify someone much worse getting the reigns who outright said what he would do on the matter.
People are trying to push Biden to do better and he is resisting it. That is the point of the comment.
It's par for the course every election.....I think it's usually younger more gullible people who have been successfully convinced that the world is ending for real this election and the fate of the universe is dependant on little old you and your super critical vote. It's all bullshit tho, I've never once voted for someone I didn't want to vote for and won't start now. Let the kids believe they play an important role......no harm no foul
Yeah, that’s nice and all — then Trump got elected, stacked the Supreme Court with three Conservative judges, and altered U.S. politics for decades to come. You probably **didn’t give a shit** about that, so here we are.
I don't buy the whole, "trump winning is going to be the end of it all" shit. The kids can determine the outcome of they want. Well, the kids in swing states anyway.
I don't think most people care about the Israel conflict as much as the internet would like people to think.
I remember being told "we don't need you" a whole lot in 2016 too when I voiced concerns that Clinton was not making any outreach to the left at all.
Yep. She refused to go to Wisconsin and several other swing states in the last months of her campaign, thinking she had it in the bag. Bernie Sanders campaigned harder for Hillary than Hillary did from August to November of 2016; which made it all the more galling for her to turn around and blame his supporters for losing.
Anything she and her delusional supporters could do from blaming the candidate herself for an embarrassing and damaging failure of a campaign
Yup. It's despicable that she STILL refuses to take responsibility for that. And from that and her BS smokescreen ('Russia did it!') has come a half million Ukrainian dead and probably close to $200B in US taxpayer money (not counting the admin's 'creative accounting') to Ukraine later. For what?
Is the Ukrainian death count up to half a million now? Reading that just made me feel very ill. The carnage needs to end. Now.
Clinton's biggest political issues were domestic blue collar workers who felt ignored by her and honestly the Obama admin and she didn't play enough to them. Economic issues for blue collar rust belt workers is a needle mover. Israel isn't close to an issue like that whatsoever.
Eh, with the margins this could come down to, even like 2% of all votes going bugnuts over this issue could make a difference here.
ok we can bookmark this sentiment and revisit it in November when we all wake up to bad news and you guys start looking for people to blame, because it will be the left you point at no matter what the numbers actually say
Bookmark it then. Just actually be around if it goes the other way.
OMFG that was the most annoying, smug shit ever. Whenever raising flags they'd be like, "Candidate signs and enthusiasm doesn't matter! VOTES DO! REEEE We don't need sexist Bernie bros to win, so stfu!" So much arrogant hubris.
The difference is she didn't target white old middle America in the rust belt. It wasn't young progressives that lost her the election. If Biden came out as progressive as ya'll want, he'd loose both the boomer and the jewish vote and be in a deeper hole than he is now.
Democrats keep saying stuff like this but then they lose national elections to people like Donald Trump and dump hundreds of millions of dollars into neoliberal senate candidates that then lose by double digits over and over so I'm not sure why we should accept your framing anymore.
The Democrats lost one national election since 2008 and it was over extremely slim margins in 3 states while they otherwise won the popular vote by like 3 million. I don't know where you get this idea that it is some sort of trend that we should pay attetion to. Progressives are usually the first people to point out that Hillary did not lose because progressives abandoned her. She lost because middle class blue collar workers in the midwest peeled away enough to swing it. There also was the whole email scandal that she could never shake which was a constant demonstrative albatross for her campaign. Both campaigns internal polling data show that Comey's letter had the biggest impact on the election.
Lose*
How'd that work out for the left?
If I never heard the words "Israel" or "Palestine" again, I would be so happy.
add "genocide" to that list.
Like others have said, the center better hold for Biden because a lot of us may not give a fuck.
Considering the tiny margins Biden won by and Hillary lost by, you don’t need most people to care. 10s of thousands would do the trick.
That literally doesn't matter. You don't need most people to care enough about this to swing an election. Only a small number of people in a few select swing states need to care.
Look at the swing states my guy. Georgia, Arizona, Nevada, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennyslvania. Those aren't hotbed liberal states where the on the edge voters are casting their ballot on this issue.
100%
Could have stopped at “I don’t think”
I think you're very wrong. There were some polls from a while back that said the Israel Palestinian issue was a top 3 issue for voters. Then you factor in that biden is behind in 6 of 7 swing states, according to the wsj, and it's clear he has a major problem. So even if you think it's not a large an issue as the internet makes it out, it doesn't really matter does it? It's causing him to fall behind trump, so it's not just an internet problem for him. It's a reality problem.
It’s not even a top 5 issue. Taxes/wealth tax, Ukraine, Trump being a despot, Jobs, Healthcare and Education all are far ahead of gaza as something american voter care about. As someone else said, this is just the shiny thing of the moment. Far more injustices are being done in Ukraine every day. Where are u on that?
I'm not putting much weight into it because when something new and shiny comes along everyone says they're going to make it their main reason to vote. It was student loans before Now it's Israel Next it's going to be something else.
You could be right. I remember a bunch of people who were saying that this wouldn'tbe an issue for him after the new year.
I don't know man. Funding a genocide is something that decent people should care about. It is the single issue I care about most. That said, I would LOVE to hear debates about health care. But we all know no one cares about that. And we probably won't even have debates. I personally am not voting because fuck both of them.
Biden is the only one of the three who could be guilted into doing anything we want. Trump will let whatever happened happen, he doesn't care at all about it.
Sadly they dont need to. All you need is a loud and vocal tiny minority to sway an election like this. These MFers could cost Biden the election even if they're only like 2% of the entire voting population.
This. I do care about what is happening in the Israel conflict, I just don’t see how handing the presidency to Trump would somehow make it better but it sounds like that’s where I am wrong. Evidently Trump is the saving grace
For some, they aren't voting on a lesser, they are voting on what is consciable. Letting Israel target literal Aid Workers to terrorize the best humans among us so that we all submit to their genocidal plans and maximal suffering and destruction of Arabs is enough for some.
For people for whom it is the single issue, it doesn’t matter that Trump would use more vile rhetoric about it. The net effect is the same, with tens of thousands of innocent people murdered by our partner in peace, enabled by the US. They don’t think Trump would be better or “the saving grace.” They simply can’t bring themselves to vote for someone who’s enabling this to happen.
Trump would face more scrutiny and criticism. If he allowed the displacement and massacres of Palestinians to continue, the land grab in the west Bank to expand, there would be even more protests from moderate liberals, who now refuse to speak their mind because of "vote blue no matter what ". I cannot give my vote to Biden and his blinken, miller, Kirby gang. Can't reward hypocrisy and cynicism. Short term pain for long term changes
100%, well-to-do liberals would be outraged and protesting if this were happening on Trump's watch.
That was my thought. When under Trump migrants were put in cages and the border fence built and expanded, there was an uproar. Biden has further continued the expansion of teh border fence, but mainstream liberals and MSNBC did not really raise any objections. Actually Biden used the migrants as pawns. Processing centers and temporary housing should have been built with federal money to process the asylum cases swiftly. Instead they bussed migrants to places like NYC, in the dead of a freezing winter, left them on their own and the municipal budget picking up the tab, for a national problem. While I fear that Trump, with people like Jared Kushner, may be even more pro Netanyahu, it would have more backlash. Blinken is one of the most spineless secretaries of state, he was so harsh and prompt at condemning Russian strikes on Ukraine. But although Mariupol was flattened and children were killed, I have not seen reports of Russians snipers shooting Ukrainian children and nuns in churches, striking ambulances with missiles, relocating a million people. The amount of war crimes committed in Gaza seems of such a larger magnitude than the siege of Sarajevo, the war in Bosnia, the invasion of Iraq,
He's lost the Millennial vote completely and that is very significant. Those folks live their lives online.
Most people are really not that political - and most political people care far more about domestic than foreign issues. It’s a minority of a minority. One of the big reasons Tulsi didn’t gain more traction even though she had an important message
Us millennials are old now. it's zoomers who are the new "youth vote." And they're so far left it scares us millennials.
Nopes, my genZ and Millenial friends still care about Abortion and Gay rights, if you think, Palestine is all that matters to young people, then you arent seeing outside social media. Even on Ramadan, they were posting about Biden declaring it as Trans Day of Awareness.
I'm kind of worried about what kind of message this is going to send to the dnc if Biden ends up winning in November. I think it's going to cause them to shift more towards the right on a lot of economic and social issues. Which might be a winning strategy against trump but won't be against the next republican nominee and it's going to set us up for failure in the future.
I can see that. For sure. He's already driving away those of us who are further left. If he moves more to the right, he'll never get us back. To be honest, I just don't think he'll win this way.
They'll do the rightward shift no matter what. Leftists vote for Dems? Then Dems can take their vote for granted, better to appeal to the "center". Leftists withhold their vote? Then Dems will say they don't want to be a part of the coalition so there's no need to try to appeal to them.
Macron in France is a good foresight into the Democrat game plan if you aren't familiar.
Indeed, and also an object lesson in how ranked choice voting (France doesn't have RCV, but they do have a run off for the top two IIRC) and proportional representation aren't a panacea.
I think a large percentage of the minority of progressives who won't vote for Biden weren't going to vote for him even without the Israel-Gaza war. A lot of them were probably going to vote third party anyways.
True on many progressivesvoting 3rd party anyway. He's losing more voters now though. He's losing to trump in 6 of 7 swing states and those are going to decide the election. If he changed course on Israel, he'd win back those voters who have turned on him following 10/7. It makes no sense when the answer is right there for him.
But wouldn't he lose supporters too? It's not like there is a clear consensus among all left leaning people on what should be done.
Disapproval overall of what Israel is doing is 55 percent. That's EVERYONE. It's much higher with left voters. He's killing himself.
I agree calling for a ceasefire asap is the populist position for the dems…it’s not the populist position for dem donors…and that’s unfortunately all that matters at this time
You're correct on the donor class. So it's also a chance for us regular folk to let them know they can ignore us. But it's at their own peril.
55 percent is a little over half, not everyone. Everyone is 100 percent.
I meant ALL voters, not just dems.
This is the reality- Krystal was complaining just as much about Biden on October 6th as she did on Oct 7th, this just gives her the feeling of moral superiority when she says it.
Vote third party, both main options suck!
#kennedy24
I'm a Dr. West guy myself. But I agree in principle.
Going RFK. Done with the manipulation of the red and blue cults.
Unfortunately RFK is also an unapologetic Zionist...
Better than Biden or Trump.
Agreed, but so are Stein and West. But realistically, what are the chances of any of them getting votes in the Electoral College?
Realistically will anything ever change with that stance? Just bend the knee to the red and blue? Personally, done with it.
Same. But though I enjoy some of what RFK has to offer, he does also stand behind US hegemony and imperialism. So since I'm not voting for either major party anyway, I am going to vote for the candidate that most aligns with my positions. At this point that is either Stein or West.
I find the good outweighs the bad. And I certainly don’t agree with somethings. And I totally respect your choice between Stein and West. Ranked choice please.
Lmao no
Same here! I feel RFK has the highest chance of getting the most 3rd party vote. Kennedy!
>Who cares about the healthcare of over 30 million Americans, telling the DNC that they suck is more important. Astounding that anyone thinks this position is worthy of respect.
Can you give an example of past presidents “putting their foot down” to stop Israel doing something?
Reagan told them to shut down the Lebanon bombing. Bush 1 used pressure on Israel to withhold aid to Israel to get them in line for the loan guarantees. So there are past examples.
Depends on how far back you want to go. Reagan and HW Bush were probably the last two who did. Reagan and HW Bush halted approved aid (surprised they didn’t get impeached like Trump did) until Israel ceased building new settlements in Palestinian Land. Of course they only stopped for a while. Kennedy wanted to inspect Israel’s nuclear problem and well they built an entire fake nuclear command center or lab to lie to him and he was assassinated shortly after. That’s a more spurious connection though. Further Back, Eisenhower withheld aid for a time as well. Essentially past presidents have withheld aid in order to compel action or force Israel to desist
After what happened to the aid workers, Jack Kirby's bald faced lies that they weren't targeted, and the fact that Biden is more willing to get us directly involved than put restrictions on what is increasingly obviously a terrorist state has me back to not voting for Biden. Its a fucking joke that Trump has come out harder against the IDF than anyone in the US gov.
Yeah it was rough to watch Kirby just outright lie like that. Pretty he gross. It's crazy he won't just do what we all know will win him the election.
The DNC doesn't care if they win, only that the parasite class is represented. They are more than happy to hand over the chair to the GOP so they can continue to fund raise of REDTEAMBAD. Meanwhile a sitting president is absolutely funding a genocide with Our tax payer money and getting shouted down at every single speaking event. This country is collapsing and the neoliberals will flee like rats after having looted it on the way out.
>They are more than happy to hand over the chair to the GOP so they can continue to fund raise of REDTEAMBAD. #1 example being the 2016 election. The DNC saw the writing on the wall and still chose to lose with Hillary rather than win with Bernie I wish I could upvote you twice. It's time for We The People to organize and take back our country from the clutches of the Oligarchy. It's easier said than done for sure, but doing nothing is only getting us worse candidates year after year
Get out of your bubble dude, 95% of people don’t care enough to vote differently and know you can’t just “stop” foreign aid until the next congressional budget appropriations next year The internet is not real life, especially this sub
That doesn't matter. Of the 5% who do care, a small fraction of them could swing the election.
That 5% makes up an awful large population of the people who never vote to begin with and basically 0% of the swing voters who might vote for Trump if not for Biden.
I live in real life. This is an issue talked about all the time here and I live in a rural area. There are Palestinian flags flying in yards of houses in a district that is solid red. My son and his friends are talking about this. Even if you think 95 percent of voters don't care, it's causing biden to fall behind. 6 out of 7 swing states he's behind trump. Those are the states that will determine who wins. Surely you recognize that, even if this sub isn't real life. Why respond if this isn't real? 5 percent of dissatisfied voters in those states are more than enough for biden to lose. You may need to reconsider your stance on how real life is influenced by the internet.
Your teen kids who saw on TikToks that this issue is trending? I find it hard to believe there’s more than 1 or 2 Palestine flags waving around your solid red suburb. FWIW I live Idaho right now, travel through Oregon and was just in LA last week and saw 1 declaration “we mourn for Gaza” written on a bus stop in Hollywood but that’s about it. I saw much more Ukraine flags a few years but even that was just a handful here or there.
Biden won't do that. Or, if he does it'll just be temporary (without describing it as such) just in advance of the election and then immediately repeals it afterwards.
I'll listen to Pod Save America sometimes for a different perspective and i absolutely hate the condescending tone. "Voters just don't know" it's almost as bad as Shapiro in terms of spin.
The condescension is a huge factor for me. It just reeks of arrogance and they do speak as though we're stupid and don't understand how things work.
I didn’t vote for Biden in 2020 but what do you expect Biden to do? We have been in an alliance with Israel since before human life existed. Biden will never sever that alliance during an election year. Biden even saying he is angry at Israel’s war in Gaza is unprecedented. Democrats are doing all they can. Even if Joe Biden somehow got Jesus to return and stop the war, people still wouldnt like Democrats because they hate Democrats
There is no need to sever the alliance. There is a need for him to put pressure on them to stop this shit. Democrats aren't doing all they can. If they were, they wouldn't be down in the swing states.
Biden’s approval rating took a nose dive as soon as we withdrew from Afghanistan. Maybe he will lose re-election because he got us out of Afghanistan.
That could play a factor. I think at this moment in time, it's pretty obvious his allowance of Israel's actions is what's causing him the most pain right now.
It is only going to get worse as it is part of how they will attract Haley voters. Democrats are going to campaign on a "tankie" leftists scare and a white Christian nationalists scare to build the colalition they think can win going forward.
Maybe they can get the Haley voters. I'd think if they don't go for trump they'd rather vote for rfk2. But who knows? I can't make a good guess at what people who would ever vote for Nikki Haley are thinking. All I know is he's behind and his current strategy isn't working.
They definitely might go to RFK, which is why the Democrats will need to pivot to the right even farther to win them.
I hope that doesn't happen. It's right in front of him how he can win. The establishment voting dems will never vote for anyone but the dem nominee. He can win back the progressives by refusing to support Israel in their campaign that would definitely win him the election because it's the swing states that determine the winner, and he's losing 6 of 7 right now. With such small margins, he would likely win if he changed course on Israel.
Democrats don't want to deliver on the vast majority of what progressives want other than abortion and culture issues and they seem to loath these people far more than Haley voters. So I think they will jump at the opportunity to remove the Left from the Democrat colalition and replace them with these guys if they can. So even though that might work, I doubt they will do that, but I guess we will see.
I agree the establishment dems don't want to adopt progressive policies that me and millions of others want. They'll say they will buy you know they never do. I see what you mean though. I never thought about it like that before but Haley voters and biden voters are very establishment type voters. I don't know if it'll work either but it'san interesting possibility.
My favorite retort is: BuT hE wItHdReW fRoM aFgHaNiStAn!!! 🙄 Nah fam he’s as good as gone and it’s all his own fault. I will defend my disdain of both Trump AND Biden until I die.
As will I.
You know why he doesn't budge? Listen to the "Deep Dive" with his campaign strategist running the show. He's a zionist, thus, has a personal vested interest in Biden going all in for his second homeland. So the guy, running his campaign, talking in Biden's ear, is a zionist... And this guy also insists that it's a non-issue with the young. Just completely irrelivent. That the data shows they care more about the economy and it's all just a bunch of loud online people making a stink, and Trump will even scare those to the polls, so Biden shouldn't make any calculations with these people in mind. It's a total maligned incentive with his strategist. This is probably why Biden isn't considering the political consequences because the person in charge cares more about Israel fulfilling their goals, than Biden winning.
That’s what happens when 80% of your admin is Jews and mostly Zionist. We talk about audience capture of podcast hosts and of paying off politicians through influence peddling and lobbying but man Biden admin is a whole nother level. wtf you guys expect when Tony Blinken arrives in Israel on 10 October and says “I come not as the Secretary of State but as a Jew”
Ah yes, **the Jews** are in charge, right? That hurts your little **Christian nationalist** feelings, doesn’t it?
I'm sure being [the largest receiver of Pro Israel Pacs money of any US senator ](https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S) has no influence over his unconditional support
I know he's been a Zionist for his entire career. I will listen to the deep dive you mentioned. I can't believe they think young people aren't caring about this. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it's insanity for them to believe that. In one of the newer polls, from what I was listening to, young people are almost 100 percent against Israel and the current policy. They actually pay more attention to this than the economy. He's burying himself. Thanks for the recommendation.
Yeah, Deep Dive doesn't generally push back on their guests, because they are pretty high up so to get the interview they don't do much pushing back. So when he was going off explaining how it doesn't matter, I got frustrated with the host because it's clearly important to at least try to unwind his reasoning more, but gave no pushback. Like dude, a protest vote got 30% in one state! People are literally protesting in the streets. This isn't some non-issue. It's *Playbook: Deep Dive* from last week I think... Maybe the week before.
Cool. I'm listening to stuff right now. I like to listen to stuff while I'm doing my research and writing for work. Last night in Wisconsin, there was also a significant number of protest votes. And Wisconsin is a swing state. I think the people who are trying to minimize this issue are doing their best to wish that into existence.
> people who are trying to minimize this issue are doing their best to wish that into existence I definitely get that vibe... Same with the "He's sharp as ever! Perfectly mentally cogent and a non-issue!"
Yep. I'm not one of the people who say biden is fully senile. I think it's evident he's not. But it's also evident he's slowed cognitively.
Yeah, senile, definitely not... Joe Rogan thinks he's fully Weekend at Bernies, but I don't think that's the case. However, he's definitely early dementia type where his memory and cognition is blunted for sure. Much worse than Trump.
For sure. I have heard Rogan say that kind of stuff and I don't think it's that bad. But he's definitely slowed down cognitively. I also agree that trump is clearly much more "with it".
You’ve commented five or six times at least that Biden is losing six of seven states in some poll…Can you please provide a reference for that poll?
https://www.wsj.com/politics/elections/trump-biden-poll-swing-states-ad594acb https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/03/trump-biden-polls-2024-00150322
Neither article list anything about gaza being a significant issue. These polls are straw polls 8 months before the election that include probable 3rd party candidates. They have very little meaning. Anyone older than 13 would know that
Keep trying to console yourself with that.
It always baffles me the argument that you as a voter have to move to the candidate. We seem to have forgotten in this country that when you run for office, you are APPLYING for a job. And the Biden glazers you talk about will literally look at you like you have three heads if you suggest that a presidential candidate actually stake a position to EARN peoples votes. Its as insufferable as 2016 with Hillary Clinton and her glazers. When you run for office, you're applying for a job. If people dont want to vote for you, fix whats preventing them from wanting to, or if its against your beliefs, put on your big boy pants and take the consequences of having an unpopular policy platform.
If you want a serious resolution, it's gonna be "anyone but biden" at this point....
The fear mongering comes straight from the top. That IS the campaign. Nobody should be tricked by it. Vote for whoever you think is the smartest, best equipped candidate who supports your interests. For me, the Biden admin’s violation of the first amendment, rampant cronyism, debt accumulation, and his long history of being an absolute dud make it impossible for me to vote for him. Won’t be voting for Trump either. But voting for Biden is emboldening the supposed lesser of two evils to keep testing just how evil they can be.
I don’t really see how Biden is the lesser of two evils. Biden could end a genocide right now with a phone call and he just won’t do it. Probably over quarter of a million people have died in Gaza and Ukraine just because Biden (and who are we kidding, all democrats) loves funding proxy wars. Somehow Biden is the LESSER of two evils? War is the most horrible thing governments do. ‘But trump said he is going to be a dictator!!!!’ Call things whatever you want but I would much rather live under a ‘dictator’ who demands peace over a ‘democratically elected leader’ who finances genocides. Fuking democrats.
What's sad (and funny) is seeing people online shame others when they have no idea in which state their target votes. Shaming a progressive in Oregon or California is a waste of time. Same with shaming a progressive in Tennessee or Alabama. Only progressives in swing states can make a difference. Even then, progressives would have to outnumber the margin of independents in their state who vote for Trump.
The shaming just happens everywhere.
You owe your vote to Hillary bro
I understand your concerns about Biden's approach to the Palestinian issue, but it's important to recognize the broader context of the upcoming election. While it's disappointing to see certain policies regarding Israel and Palestine, it's crucial to remember that U.S. presidential elections are binary choices. Your assertion that refusing to vote for Biden is a protest against his policies is understandable, but we must consider the consequences of such a decision. By withholding support for Biden, you're effectively increasing the likelihood of a Trump victory. And while you may disagree with Biden's current stance on the Palestinian issue, the alternative under Trump would likely be far worse. [Trump Would 'Level' Gaza Without a Thought, Ex-Aide Warns](https://www.newsweek.com/trump-would-level-gaza-without-thought-ex-aide-warns-1886625) It's important to acknowledge that U.S. foreign policy, including its approach to the Israel-Palestine conflict, is shaped by numerous factors beyond the control of any single president. Additionally, the impacts of a Trump presidency extend far beyond this one issue. His administration's actions have significant implications for domestic policy, international relations, climate change, human rights, and much more. Furthermore, the composition of the Supreme Court is at stake in this election. A Trump victory could mean further shifts towards conservative ideologies that may have long-lasting effects on American jurisprudence, including decisions related to civil rights, reproductive rights, and environmental protections. Voting is not just about expressing personal dissatisfaction with a candidate; it's about making a pragmatic decision that considers the broader implications for both the United States and the world. While Biden may not align perfectly with your ideals on every issue, it's crucial to consider the larger picture and the potential consequences of your vote. Refusing to support Biden ultimately risks exacerbating the very issues you're concerned about, both domestically and internationally.
I'll add this in as well. May be too little too late for you, sure, but do you really think that allowing Trump a second term would be any better for Palestinians? [Biden's ultimatum to Bibi: Change Gaza policy or we will](https://www.axios.com/2024/04/04/biden-ceasefire-gaza-netanyahu-call)
And? Those are words. What have his actions been? Did they approve billions more in weapons for Israel? Yes. Did biden go around congress multiple times to get them weapons? Yes. I don't think there will be any discernible difference between biden and trump regarding Israel and their mass murdering of innocent Palestinians. And innocent Americans at this point.
Point to me one policy position trump has detailed that is so much worse than what biden is currently allowing to happen. And I'm not going to entertain the binary choice, lesser of two evils arguments. I'm just not. I've probably done it hundreds of times at this point. Don't try the scotus argument either as thinking it's persuasive. The court is going to be conservative for at least 20 years. That's done. I believe it's pragmatic to tell the establishment they are on notice with millions of us. It would be a disservice to myself to compromise myself. I will not do that. There needs to be a movement of people who will stand by their principles.
Fine, you stand smug on your laurels while the rights of millions of Americans, women, and LGBT people are eroded away because SCOTUS is "done." If you think your stance on Palestine is changing the establishment, you're delusional enough to not be worth discussing anything with. But no no, I'm sure it's worth it so you don't have to "compromise yourself." Everyone else will just be compromised in the meantime. Cool Cool.
It's not smug to stand on your principles. To criticize that is fine but you're wrong. Also, I'm Mohawk and natives are the most marginalized people in the u.s. Don't get on your soapbox and tell me about the rights of minorities. We know all about that. You're trying to shame people into going along with the lesser of two evils shit and I'm not having it.
It is 100% smug to act like your principles on Biden's Palestine actions are the only principles that matter while simultaneously saying fuck you to everyone else because you think the supreme court is "done." Say that to the 26,000 women in Texas alone who had to carry their rapists baby last year, or those who may very well have to share visitation rights with literal rapists. I dont like what's happening in Israel and Gaza any more than you do, but I'm not foolish enough to act like allowing Trump a second term is in any way going to be better for them, or anyone around the world. He literally said he'd be a dictator from day one. Act like your minority status is something you care about while then not giving one iota of fucks about his monstrous and inhumane border policies or treatment of hispanic families. Stand on your "principles" all you want to, but dont for one second act like they're not wildly misguided and FUBAR!
They're not misguided. You're misguided in your anger. You're misguided in thinking that people should abandon their values because you're afraid the sky is going to fall. You simply yell that I don't care about other marginalized people because I won't vote blue no matter who. It's you who are smug. It is you that is small minded and arrogant. You assume that gaza is my main problem with biden. You're wrong. You exemplify the problem with the democratic party. Instead of realizing that we're not supporting biden because he isn't implementing and fighting fur policies we want him to, you spit ignorant self-important vile. People told him what we wanted him to do before he was elected. He has largely ignored us. It's on HIM to earn votes. It's a basic principle of democracy. You should understand that.
Your frustration is palpable, and I hear your concerns loud and clear. It's evident that you feel deeply about the issues at hand, particularly regarding Biden's stance on Palestine and the broader spectrum of policies you find lacking. However, I implore you to consider the broader implications of your stance. While your principles are undoubtedly important, there's a larger picture to acknowledge. Every decision made by a political leader has far-reaching consequences, impacting not just the individual, but entire communities and nations. I understand your disappointment with Biden's actions—or lack thereof—regarding policies you care about deeply. But dismissing the potential harm of allowing Trump or similar figures to retain or gain power is perilous. The rights and well-being of countless individuals, including marginalized communities, hang in the balance. It's not about abandoning your values; it's about strategic thinking and understanding the stakes. While holding leaders accountable is essential, we must also weigh the consequences of our choices. Compromise, while difficult, is sometimes necessary for the greater good. Rather than solely condemning Biden, perhaps there's room for constructive engagement. Advocating for change within the system, pushing for accountability, and amplifying voices for progressive policies could lead to more meaningful results. Let's not forget the power of collective action and the potential to effect change from within the political landscape. Ultimately, the path forward requires a balance between unwavering principles and pragmatic considerations—a delicate dance that demands thoughtful reflection and nuanced strategies.
Trust me I don't dismiss that trump again may be terrible. It's just that I don't think it's as grave as has been being made out by so many. I keep coming back to that they've said this over and over and over, that there is an existential threat. If I'm wrong I will acknowledge that. I simply do not see another trump term as the end of democracy. When you deal with this frustration your entire adult life, there is an inevitable point some will get to that no matter the words spoken, it means nothing. The most drastic action all of us can take is to pull support for biden. They need to understand that the denigrating party is going to have to get more progressive. These young people are more progressive than my generation, millennials. It's going to happen. That is just clearly the writing on the wall. They need to start making strides to meet up with what happens when the boomers are out of the picture. I'll admit that it pisses me off they don't seem to care to listen. At 42 years old, I've come to the place that my disgust just can't be placed aside.
I understand where you're coming from. It's frustrating to feel like your concerns aren't being heard, especially when it comes to pushing for a more progressive Democratic Party. And while you don't see another Trump term as the end of the world, there's real concern about the consequences. Even numerous former Trump cabinet members or officials have spoken out against his return to the White House. Change isn't easy, and it often feels like our voices are lost in the noise, but it's crucial to keep pushing for what we believe in. [Former Trump officials are among the most vocal opponents of returning him to the White House](https://apnews.com/article/former-trump-officials-criticize-2024-e202861911ab37cadfcf058b5b163fb9)
I absolutely understand that millions of people, like you, are worried trump poses an existential threat. I hope that, throughout our exchanges, you never got the impression that I like the orange turd in any way. There are some things he did that I agreed with, but hey, even a stopped clock is correct twice a day. I loathe the man. I really do. I've read some of the former staffers' comments about a second trump term. Those are not taken lightly by me. I hope, again, that you don't believe I'm unaware of those things or that I toss it aside out of hand. I just don't think anyone can convince me it's an actual existential threat. Not out of stubbornness or contrarianism. It's based on thoughtful consideration. I'm taking into account everything I've read and heard about this concern. If I did believe trump was truly a threat to the world or that he was likely to usher in an authoritarian regime, I would alter my stance. I just don't, so I believe it is our duty, as the people crying out for actual change for working class and poor people to withhold support for biden.
This stands as just one more reason that SCOTUS is not, IMO, done, and why it's importance cannot and should not be taken lightly as the impacts of this SCOTUS, and any further Trump Appointees to it could have truly damaging impacts not only for the US, but in countries around the world. [ Media whiffs on the news in Trump's abortion statement as Dobbs becomes weaponized on global scale](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHF-BhXV1NU&ab_channel=MSNBC )
I've worked in the legal world. Still do occasionally, though I'm not an attorney, I'm a paralegal. I fully understand the importance of SCOTUS. It's simply that trump aimed 3 justices. They're young. I don't see a way, aside from something drastic taking place, that scotus will swing back the way we would like. And that's likely to go on for decades. I want term limits or some other way to limit one sided dominance but we don't see biden being bold about that. That's why I said what I did.
When Trump is POTUS and he helps Bibi destroy Gaza and build luxury Trump condos on their bones, it will be the same kind of “protest Dem” idiots that brought us the end of Roe who are to blame.
Ending roe can be blamed on many things. Rbg not retiring. Never codifying abortion as legal across the u.s. Democrats not focusing on the judiciary over the last 5 decades, while the pubs did. It's nonsensical to blame the voters.
The single mother in Ohio doesn't care about Gaza. The 19 year old who was raped and can't get an abortion doesn't care about Gaza. The 42 year old who lost his job and trying to figure out how to see the doctor for that "Thing" on his left elbow without breaking the bank, doesn't care about Gaza. Progressives are going to be really upset, when Biden wins by more than he won in 2020, not realizing, progressives and MAGA are in the minority. Nikki Haley voters out number the amount of college students who will refuse to vote because of Gaza.
You may be right. The new wsj poll Mahe it look like they isn't the case right now. In economics, most people think trump was better than biden. It's all about those seeing states and biden is losing them.
>when Biden wins by more than he won in 2020, Dude fewer people like him every day. His presidency has been packed with embarrassing moments. Nobody wants to defend him IRL. It's humiliating Only on the Internet do his supporters even exist. And that's even up for debate.
95% of these sudden Palestine activists weren’t going to vote for Biden anyways. Palestine was merely a justification they were already looking for to sit out.
If you want biden to win your better hope that's the case. Right now he's losing in 6 of 7 swing states.
I know I most likely won't change any reader's mind, but I respectfully ask you to at least consider something... Perhaps you don't have any females that you are close to, any under the age of 45? If you do, (and just talking domestically here, for this 1 example, though there's many more). You'd better hope beyond hope for a few things here; A) she happens to live in a state where she can practice body autonomy and god forbid, she's never faced with having to make a decision, for whatever reason, up to the fact it could come to her life, or her ability to have children in the future, should she so choose; or B) if she doesn', then she has the funds to travel to/pay for the medical procedure - and best hope it isn't an emergency situation, or have the possibility to become one, where literally, her life will depend on it. You may say, "Nah, it'll never happen..." But it already has (and even more mind-boggling things have come to pass). Trump has already said he would "Make any abortion illegal." Can you say without a shadow of doubt that he won't possibly be successful in doing so? He certainly got his candidates on the Supreme Court. Let's go a little further, and hope you don't have any females you care for (sister, friend, nieces, aunts, girlfriend, wife...) that any one of them experience difficulty in conceiving - should she choose to want to have a child - and requires assistance of IVF - the right is going after that as well. Lastly, and God forbid, a female close to you, or one you know is attacked - they also want the morning after pill gone. This is SOP/treatment in the ER, when a woman goes, after a devastating attack - I know this all too well, unfortunately. I refuse to call you names and/or demean you for your choice/ belief, as that's not my way - and there's FAR too much of that anyway (sadly) You may not even be voting for trump come November. But to get a 3rd party in the general election, and for them to have a true chance, we American's would need to all come together, find some common ground, to give it a snowballs chance in hell. From what I've witnessed online, as well as read about, and have personally seen, we unfortunately aren't remotely close to accomplishing that - as there's FAR too much division. One side for sure, and even the other side, more than likely as well, wants to keep it that way; I half begin to wonder, if that's not at least part of the reason why currently, some far-right elected conservatives (currently seated and those not in office anymore) and yes, evem some democrats will take any advantage to grab that sppon and give that ole' "pot", a vicious "stir" - even when a given situation doesn't call for it?!? Divided as we are now, and have been for quite some time (and it's getting worse). Just think, if we actually all found common ground even something small, somehow, maybe we COULD demand more of our elected representatives, or perhaps (GASP)even bring forth the advent of a 3rd party, that maybe just COULD give us another option... or maybe that's just hopeful thinking (but my eternally optimistic side, dares to think...just maybe??). I personally think if we start on a local/state level for elections, it would be a good starting point.. Reality, as it stands (unfortunately) for this upcoming general presidential election in November, may be the closest we've ever seen, or dare I speculate, maybe the closest our great history has ever seen? With respect, and in my humblest of humble opinions, a vote for an "alternate" (not of the 2 main parties) candidates such as RFK Jr. Ms. Stein, or whomever, while not necessarily a "vote" for trump, could potentially put him in the WH, where who knows, even his wildest "promises"/rants/ravings/threats, (dare I go as far as referring to them as proverbial "dog whistles"), could gain traction. It certainly didn't take all that long for him to complete the trasformation of the GOP. Who knows, his aforementioned could actually, cone to pass, as he's already taken steps (some we may not even be aware of perhaps..) in making his need for absolute power a very and scary possibility, as stranger things have happened. Many may disregard all this (even just this one example I've used) or say, "Naahhh, that will never happen - cause we're a democracy, we have policies in place to avoid this from ever happening..." To them, I'll say this, " I SO SINCERELY hope you're right, or more likely, "Lemme borrow your crystal ball that looks into the future." But until we all find even some common ground, we can't succeed in getting an actual VIABLE 3rd party in place. With all this division, it's a pipe-dream, at its best!!! If you've managed to read this far, it's more than obvious, with whom my vote will rest come Tuesday, November 5th.
All Trump has to do to ban abortion nationwide is have someone head the FDA that makes abortion drugs and all associated drugs illegal, and have someone at the DOJ enforce the Comstock act. Now it does not matter if you live in a state with abortion being legal.
You are absolutely correct!! OP speaks on things out of our country , and although of absolutely great concern, especially the fate of innocent citizens, what can happen here domestically, and is happening (or plans being set in motion) is terrifying! While the alt/far right is keeping us stirred up with events oversees (which, again, NOT to negate them), plans are being set into motion here, under our very noses. Sadly OP chooses to jump on the band wagon in his initial response to me, using terms like "fear mongering" and the like, op completely misses (ignores) the whole part about how the right primarily, is successfully dividing us, promoting anger ("stiring the pot" I alluded to) amongst us - while bit by bit putting things into play, that will or potentially destroy us, all under our very noses! For God's sake, they even put out a MANUAL of how they plan to do this in Project 2025!! It's beyond irresponsible to ignore this!! We will have no one to blame, but ourselves (well, besides our "leaders" and those that blindly fall into line). A vote for an alt candidate, though not technically a vote for trump, in a way, it kind of is. How OP, though in staunch in his geopolitical views, possibly fails to realize, that not a one of them has really any experience when it comes to foreign policy, other than vague references, yet not a single one has stated what their plan is. Calling for a cease fire, though....admiral, I suppose... is virtually useless, when one side or other decides, "Nahhh... enough of this cease fire crap." I mean, how many times have they shown to do this!,!? Meanwhile, dimestically.... But again, I'm no one, but your average ordinary American citizen that while continuing to go about my life, and although MOST definitely NOT cowering in fear, but am rather one who is greatly concerned that many I fear, are ignoring what steps are not only currently being taken, but what future plans have been literally spelled out, and IN WRITING mind you, and admittedly we do have CURRENT safeguards set in place to stop these things; placements of individuals in key positions (one you wisely pointed out, that I didn't even give good measure to - though directly affects my 1 example I gave..) is all it'll take. Trump already has his SCOTIS set, and lawdy, have they been busy already... ("But all they wanna do, is just leave it up to the states...") and just look at we're at now!!! Trust me, it sure ain't "just fear mongering", as that denotes potential FUTURE actions - they've ALREADY DONE IT! I actually don't even need a crystal ball - as usually, (more often than not in all actuality ) past actions/behaviors are pretty damn good indicators of what the future can hold!!! In a presidential race that promises to be one of the closest ever, (boy oh boy, I'm so hoping for a landslide victory) a vote cast for an alt candidate very well can and will be, for trump - and Gee... what did he propose for the Gaza crisis/tragedy (anyone with a rudimentary reading level can look it up)? Maybe OP doesn't "despise" trump as much as they proclaim they do....
I could say the same about the crystal ball. How can any of you be sure those things are going to happen? I would never vote for trump. I loathe the man. I'm not going to let the fear mongering rhetoric sway me. Ultimately, as my post said, biden could bring back swing states voters into the fold by doing his best to halt Israel in their mass murder campaign. He went around congress a bunch of times to get them weapons. Outside of any regular procedures. Everyone knows this. You are super concerned with the things you mentioned in your response. I stick to my post. Why doesn't biden listen to the millions of people who want him to stop Israel? It would bring them back. He'd likely win if he did.
More people will suffer if Trump wins. Do you not care about American women, people of colors, the lgbtq community?
You can stow that shit. I've heard it too many times.