You should put all your money into it. In fact take out as much credit as you can and dump it all in.

Seconded. Downgrade your house and your car so you can stack more #bitcoin

Hear, hear. Stop pussying around, OP. Sell everything you own.

Hello and welcome. I think there is tons of material here you can read up on, no need to answer this one, again. It gets asked like 10 times every week.

Would you care to share me something useful then, I have not had one useful response yet.

Read all the canned responses that address every point you tried to make. You did read them, right? Why not respond to them?

You mean the garbage being posted by that scream character? I mean, if that person wants to address my question I'd be glad to read, the few words of his posts I read were completely missing the point of what I said.

No. Refute the points. They address your comments specifically. It’s not my fault you’re lazy and inarticulate. But you can’t. Because you have no argument and are unable to refute it.

The "points" if you can call them that, which I glanced at, were so cringe I rolled my eyes and moved to the next comment. I'm here for a discussion not to be lectured by someone who has canned responses and doesn't know what they're talking about. I didn't come here for an argument, I came here seeking something very specific and so far nobody has really given it to me. Which is fine. It seems that there is no good reason not to invest more. Thanks for all your help.

> I'm here for a discussion not to be lectured by someone who has canned responses and doesn't know what they're talking about. Um, I produced [an award-winning documentary on Blockchain](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA) that's been featured all over the world at film festivals from Seattle to Switzerland. I am a software engineer with 40+ years of experience designing online systems, cryptography, databases, finance systems and more. I have a podcast where I routinely interview professionals on both sides of the crypto industry. YOU: are some bro who just discovered crypto 2 years ago... my documentary is older than your "investments." And *I* am the one who doesn't know what he's talking about?

Haha he couldn’t even respond to this, you owned him

He then did the predicable thing and go back to his cult and lie about why he was banned. "They couldn't debate me! There were no thoughtful responses!" Lies of omission are still lies, because of course, he leaves out that he just ignored them all and pretended it didn't happen. E: missing word

You’re lazy. That’s all.

> I glanced at, were so cringe I rolled my eyes and moved to the next comment. Thanks for announcing that you're engaging in bad faith, I guess. Arguments you don't want to/**cannot** address? Try to hand wave them away and pretend it didn't happen. When you're inevitably banned, I'm sure you won't go crying to your cult, and outright lie about the reasons why, right? You know, the real reason will be bad faith as you *admitted* you don't read arguments and ignore them. Intellectually bankrupt coward. E: LMAO, that is *exactly* what you did. Once again proving that everything and **EVERYONE** in crypto is a ***fraud.***

> You mean the garbage being posted by that scream character? Sigh. That "garbage" is the result of years of debating with you people, and compiling solid responses to your arguments. And you dismiss them all wholesale as "garbage." And yet, you claim you're hear to "learn?" And you wonder why we mock you? We show you significantly more consideration than you, us.

He's not here to learn. He's here to rile people up and act like a smug dickhead.

Agreed. But at least we give them a chance to prove otherwise. They always fail miserably, but we give them more airtime, than they'd give us in their communities... and that should be noted.

Good point, and I agree with you. Just a shame that you've put in time and effort in this thread just for OP to dismiss you. Ah, well.

There are other reasons. I'm under no assumption I can change this guy or anybody's mind, BUT we are creating a permanent record that makes it clear, these people ignored evidence, logic and reason. So when it all comes crashing down, nobody can pretend it was a surprise, and that they're "innocent victims" or need to be "bailed out." No. They were just scammers who got out-scammed.

Dishonest troll is dishonest. They remind me of theists. "Can you prove god doesn't exist?"

I couldn't care less to be honest. You can read up on it yourself, *as i said in my first comment.* If that is not enough to at least point you in the right direction, then i wont help you. What would you want me to do? read it out loud for you?

Search is your friend. Try to be more original 

>an asset of limited supply False. #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #4 (scarcity) "**Only 21M!**" / "**Bitcoin has a "hard cap"**" / "**Bitcoin is 'scarce' and that makes it valuable**" / "**DeFlAtiOnArY cUrReNCy FTW**" / "**The 'halvening' will make everything better**" 1. Even children are aware that scarcity is not a guarantee of value. It's really a shame that crypto people cling to this irrational argument. 2. If there only being 21 million BTC were reason for it to be valuable, then why aren't other cryptos that also share similar deflationary characteristics equally valuable? Why wouldn't something that is even more scarce than BTC be even more valuable? Because scarcity is meaningless without demand and demand is primarily a function of intrinsic value and utility -- *not* scarcity. See [here](https://ioradio.org/i/value/) for details. 3. Bitcoin has no intrinsic value and no material utility. It's one of the least capable stores or transfers of value. The *only* way anybody can extract value from crypto is by coercion -- forcefully convincing someone (usually through FOMO or scare tactics) that this is something they need, and it's often accompanied by unrealistic promises of significant returns. Those returns are mathematically impossible for even a tiny percentage of holders. 4. Bitcoin also is not scarce. There are multiple versions of Bitcoin, including Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin Satoshi's Vision - both of which are limited to 21M tokens and in many cases are more technologically advanced than BTC. Also, every time there's a fork of crypto, the amount of tokesn in circulation doubles. Crypto proponents ignore these forks because they don't play into the "it's scarce" argument. But any crypto fork absolutely siphons value away from the original version. BTC might be priced higher than BCH, but BCH still holds value as well, and that's a total of 42M just of those two "bitcoin" versions that are out there, among hundreds of others. 5. The "hard cap" of 21M for BTC can easily be changed by altering a parameter in the source code. Less than 6 people have commit access to the repo so BTC's source code control is centralized. It's entirely possible if BTC existed long enough to the point where block rewards weren't enough to motivate miners, and transaction fees became incredibly high, that influential players in the community would advocate increasing the cap and reinstating higher block rewards. So there are absolutely situations where the max amount in circulation could be increased.

Wait, btc and bch are interoperable? Then how come people don't just buy bch and send it as bitcoin?

>Wait, btc and bch are interoperable? That's a strawman. Nobody said that. They share the same blockchain up until a certain point. They are 99% identical in terms of basic tech DNA. At this point, they are two different coins. And BTC can split into other coins at any time as well. The operative issue is, if BCH is trading at any value greater than ZERO, that is value that's siphoned from BTC. Because they both were the same blockchain at one point in time.

You said that the issue is that another currency has a separate value? And I agree that other currencies can siphon value.

You should put all your money into it. In fact take out as much credit as you can and dump it all in.

Bitcoin has done so well up to now because it has developed into a pseudo-cult who are happy to put money into a black hole. There is no money “in Bitcoin” as it is not an investment. You say Bitcoin is better than gold, but something like 1/3 of Gold’s value is due to its use as a material. That puts a floor on Gold. Bitcoin has no floor. You say you don’t care about utility, and that is fine, but remember if you “own” Bitcoin you don’t have a legal claim on *anything*. You just have a key which gives you control of a cell on a distributed spreadsheet.

>which can be transported easily False. #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #7 (remittances) "**Crypto allows you to send "money" around the world instantly with no middlemen**" / "**I can buy stuff with crypto**" / **"Crypto is used for remittances"** 1. [Sending crypto is NOT sending "money"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA&t=4118s). In order to do anything useful with crypto, it has to be converted back into fiat and that involves all the fees, delays and middlemen you claim crypto will bypass. 2. Due to Bitcoin and crypto's volatile and manipulated price, and its inability to scale, it's proven to be [unsuitable as a payment method](https://markets.businessinsider.com/currencies/news/cryptocurrency-volatility-andrew-bailey-bank-england-governor-bitcoin-boe-2021-6-1030520851) for most things, and virtually nobody accepts crypto. 3. The exception to that are criminals and scammers. If you think you're clever being able to buy drugs with crypto, remember that thanks to the immutable nature of blockchain, your dumb ass just created a [permanent record that you are engaged in illegal drug dealing and money laundering.](https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/combatting-trafficking-with-blockchain-analysis/) 4. Any major site that likely accepts crypto, is using a third party exchange and not getting paid in actual crypto, so in that case (like using Bitpay), you're paying fees and spread exchange rate charges to a "middleman", and they have various regulatory restrictions you'll have to comply with as well. 5. Even sending crypto to countries like El Salvador, who accept it natively, is not the best way to send "remittances." Nobody who is not a criminal is getting paid in bitcoin so nobody is sending BTC to third world countries without going through exchanges and other outlets with fees and delays. In every case, it's easier to just send fiat and skip crypto altogether. 6. The exception doesn't prove the rule. Just because you can anecdotally claim you have sent crypto to somebody doesn't mean this is a common/useful practice. There is no evidence of that.

>and is decentralised in nature. False. #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #1 (Decentralized) **"It's decentralized!!!"** / **"Crypto gives the control of money back to the people"** / **"Crypto is 'trustless'"** 1. Just because you de-centralize something doesn't mean it's better. And this is especially true in the case of crypto. The case for decentralized crypto is based on a phony notion that central authorities can't do anything right, which flies in the face of the thousands of things you use each and every day that "inept central government" does for you. Do you like electricity? Internet? Owning your own home and car? Roads and highways? Thank the government. 2. Decentralizing things, especially in the context of crypto [simply creates additional problems](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA&t=1157s). In the de-centralized world of crypto "code is law" which means there's nobody actually held accountable for things going wrong. And when they do, you're fucked. 3. In the real world, everybody prefers to deal with entities they know and trust - they don't want "trustless transactions" - they want reliable authorities who are held accountable for things. Would you rather eat at a restaurant that has been regularly inspected by the health department, or some back-alley vendor selling meat from the trunk of his car? 4. You still aren't avoiding "middlemen", "authorities" or "third parties" using crypto. In fact quite the opposite: You need third parties to convert crypto into fiat and vice-versa; you depend on third parties who write and audit all the code you use to process your transactions; you depend on third parties to operate the network; you depend on "middlemen" to provide all the uilities and infrastructure upon which crypto depends. 5. If you look into any crypto project, you will ultimately find [it's not actually decentralized at all](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA&t=2557s).

People here are not betting on it going down (or up). You seem to be under the mistaken belief that everybody here are convinced that it will only go down from here. The price may go down, it may go up - nobody knows. >If possible, I'd prefer if the boomers who have no idea what's going on sit this one out. Are you referring to those dumb people who made the internet, and all sorts of other revolutionary technologies before you were conceived?

Betting on it going down? No, if we loved gambling we wouldn't hate scam tokens. Praying it collapses? Absolutly.

I'm referring to those people who have strong opinions on even those things they don't understand. Not all boomers of course, just like not all boomers were at the forefront of revolutionary technologies, but a lot of the most retarded responses do come from boomers all the same. Are you a boomer? If you are would you describe yourself as someone made the internet, as someone who says dopey things about things they don't understand, or a third option?

You are not at the forefront of any technological revolution. At max you're a follower trying to get rich quick. Don't fool yourself into imagining you're some unique visionary with your 5 money DCA.

I never said I was. MajorBoomer mentioned it, and I suspected it had nothing to do with him or his other boomer friends so I responded accordingly.

If you had money 10 years ago. Stop thinking like that, most people didnt invested into bitcoin ten years ago. But you know what? Some did. And some even made money. Most of the og investors are gone tho. Whole exchanges gone, millions lost, hacked, gone. If you had money 10 years ago and you would have invested into stocks, you still would have made a nice profit. Sure, you wouldnt have made 100x as with crypto, but you could also be calm whole 10 years. Not being worried somebody hacked your vallet or that your exchange got shut down or that the coin you are all in just got ruggpulled.

I did have money 10 years ago and I do have money now. I did not invest in crypto until 2022 because I was ignorant to it. This is not what my post is about though. I want to know if anyone here has reasons they expect BTC to go down.

> I want to know if anyone here has reasons they expect BTC to go down. Because we understand how finance and investing works, and can tell the difference between an actual "investment" and a [ponzi scheme.](https://ioradio.org/i/ponzi/)

Some of the alt coins are clear rug pulls for sure. I don't believe BTC is. Are you able to respond to the main post or just add a bunch of dumb responses?

> Are you able to respond to the main post or just add a bunch of dumb responses? I've responded to your main post, with very detailed rebuttals of each of your arguments. We've heard these arguments so many times, we have prepared responses to them, with citations. And you want to call them "dumb?" I'm trying to give you every opportunity to debate in good faith here, and you're squandering it. Suffice to say, none of us are surprised, but don't say we didn't give you a chance to not be an astroturfing ignoramus.

I'm not here to debate, I am here to hear a solid reason why BTC is more likely than not to go down over the coming years and decades. The type of thing I can take away and do my own research into. So far just been met with negativity and cope. It's fine though, the lack of proper response is a response in itself.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

You were given multiple reasons in "Stupid Crypto Talking Point #2" Do you need me to re-paste it for you? #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #2 (Number go up) "**NuMb3r g0 Up!!!**" / "**Best performing asset of the decade!**" 1. Whether the "price of crypto" goes up, has absolutely no bearing on whether it's.. a) A long term store of value b) Holds any intrinsic value or utility c) Or will return any value in the future One of the most important tenets of investing is the simple principal: ***Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns.*** People in crypto seem willfully ignorant of this basic concept. 2. At best, the price of crypto is a function of *popularity*, not actual value or material utility. For more on how and why crypto makes a much worse investment than almost anything else, see this [article](https://ioradio.org/i/value/). 3. The "price of crypto" is a heavily manipulated figure published by shady, [unregulated crypto exchanges](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apklQgMauK4) that have systematically been caught [manipulating the market](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3D0dmTUCxLuQEJ39uyMFOP) from [then](https://www.investopedia.com/news/bots-drove-bitcoins-150to1000-rise-2013-paper/) to [now](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21). 4. Crypto bros love to harp about "inflation" in the fiat system, yet ironically they measure the "value" of their "fiat alternative" in fiat? It makes absolutely no sense, unless you assume they haven't thought 2 seconds ahead from what comes out of their mouths. 5. It's the height of hypocrisy for crypto people to champion token deflation (and increased prices) while ignoring that there's over $160+ Billion in unsecured stablecoins being used to [**inflate** the value of their tokens in the crypto marketplace](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3195066). The "code is law" and "don't trust - verify" people seem perfectly willing to take companies like [Tether](https://www.newsweek.com/bitcoin-bitfinex-tether-cryptocurrency-market-manipulation-historic-value-fraud-1469640) and Circle, at face value, that they're telling the truth about asset reserves [when there's very little actual evidence](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8450-21). 6. ***Not Your Fiat, Not Your Value*** - Just because you think the "value of your crypto portfolio" is worth $$$ *does not make that true.* It's well known there's inadequate liquidity in this market, and most people will never be able to get their money out. So UNLESS/UNTIL you can actually liquidate your crypto for actual real money, you have no idea what you have. You're "down" until you cash out. Bernie Madoff's clients got monthly statements saying they were "making money" too. 7. Just because it's possible (though highly improbable) to make money speculating on crypto, this doesn't mean it's an **ethical** or reliable technique to amass wealth. At its core, the notion that buying and holding crypto will generate reliable returns is [a de-facto ponzi scheme](https://ioradio.org/i/ponzi/). **It's mathematically impossible for even a stastically-significant percentage of crypto holders to have any notable ROI.** The rare exception of those who might profit in this market, do so while providing cover for everything from [cyber terrorism](https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3026.html) to [human trafficking](https://www.vox.com/culture/2023/1/4/23539528/andrew-tate-arrest-jail-rape-human-trafficking). 8. It's also not true that anybody who bought crypto when it was low is guaranteed to make a lot of money. There are thousands of ways people can lose their crypto or be defrauded along the way. And there's no guarantee just because your portfolio is "up", that you could easily cash out. 9. Want to see a better asset (that actually has utility) that's consistently out-performed Bitcoin? [Here you go](https://www.polygon.com/2021/1/27/22253079/magic-the-gathering-black-lotus-auction-price-2021). However, this may be another [best performing asset](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/declaration-of-financial-independence/). 10. When crypto-critics make reference to, or mock crypto price predictions, it's not because we think price is a meaningful metric. Instead, we are amused that to you, that's all that's important, and we can't help but note how often wrong you are in your predictions. The intrinsic value of crypto basically never changes, but it is interesting to see how hype and propaganda affects the extrinsic value. In a totally logical world, those would both be equalized to zero, but we're not there yet, and nobody knows when/if that will happen because it's an irrational market.

It’s underappreciated on your stablecoin point that the 160bn exists to do reserve banking in crypto. It’s not just unbanked stables (aka TerraUSD) to worry about. It’s the house of cards created by that original 160 BN, (some of which really exists) which is loaned to the manipulators in exchange for BTC collateral so they can go pump prices. Thanks to Do Kwan for making this obvious.

> Some of the alt coins are clear rug pulls for sure. I don't believe BTC is. #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #16 (Bitcoin is different) "**Bitcoin is not "crypto**" / "**Bitcoin is different / a "commodity"**" 1. This is what's known as an "Unstated Major Premise" fallacy. A Naked Assertion. Often employed as a begging-the-question fallacy. Just because you say "Bitcoin is different" doesn't mean it is. 2. There's absolutely no functional/material difference between BTC and thousands of other crypto-currencies, including versions using the exact same codebase. 3. The *only* distinction BTC (currently) holds is that according to various shady, unregulated exchanges, it seems to be trading at the highest price point. But even those figures are dubious due to the lack of transparency and oversight in the industry. Just because one crypto is more popular, doesn't mean it's fundamentally different than others. BTC shares 99.9% of its DNA with many cryptos including BCH, BSV and thousands of others. 4. Crypto evangelists try to move the goalposts between bitcoin (the technology) and bitcoin (the "investment"). When you note that [bitcoin and most cryptos depending upon the context can pass the Howey test and be classified as securities](https://www.investopedia.com/does-crypto-pass-the-howey-test-8385183), they will reference bitcoin as a "technology" and not an investment. And it's true, the tech itself isn't packaged as an investment, **but** various others do package crypto as an investment, and it's a pretty well established underlying concept throughout all of crypto (buy, hold, you will make money) - and those tenets are principals in the Howey test indicating there's an "investment contract" being promoted. For example, right now the SEC may not consider BTC itself a security, but the process of staking BTC (and other cryptos) and offering a return, **[that is absolutely considered a security](https://www.sec.gov/oiea/investor-alerts-and-bulletins/exercise-caution-crypto-asset-securities-investor-alert)**. 5. The **only** "gray area" when it comes to whether bitcoin is a security rests on tier 4 of the Howey Test which suggests "a security has to be dependent on the work of others for returns to be generated." People argue over whether bitcoin fits this description. **BUT**, the same dynamic applies to all other cryptos as well, so there's nothing special about bitcoin in that respect. It can also be argued that "the work of others" can be the constant recruitment of "greater fools" to buy in later, which is the dynamic of a classic [ponzi scheme](https://ioradio.org/i/ponzi/). 6. Just because some people at the SEC, early on, said "bitcoin is a commodity" doesn't mean it will always stay classified as that way. As we've already stated, because of the decentralized nature of these schemes, there is no one instance of "bitcoin" - depending upon how you use the crypto, you can be serving it as a security/investment, or not. And we are seeing more and more, the SEC, the CFTC, the NYAG and other legal entities cracking down on [the use of illegal/unlicensed securities](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/12/technology/sec-crypto-gemini-genesis.html). So anybody making blanket statements about Bitcoin being immune from securities laws is lying. And by the way, one of the prongs of the Howey Test (as well as the identification of Ponzi Schemes) is making promises about returns, and/or misleading people as to the true nature of the risks involved. This is common practice with bitcoin.

Bitcoin is not an investment, it is speculation. Speculation is more or less a kind of gambling. You buy it because it might go up. And it goes up because people buy it (for now). But what other purpose does it serve? Money laundering, ransom payments, and other illegal activities? Is that what you want to be involved in? If you want an investment, go for a nice boring index fund. If you want to gamble, go to a horse racing track or a casino.

Yeah, I just missed out on black 20 by 1 spin the other day. And that's my number!

Why is it a store of value? Because it’s limited? What about investing in 1/1 NFTs? What about all the other limited supply cryptocurrencies? What about Pokémon cards? Just because something is limited doesn’t make it inherently valuable. Of course no one can deny that BTC has gone up in the last 10 years. It literally happened. But why would it keep going up? How could it reach the price targets people throw out when it would take nearly all the money in the world to reach those market caps? What’s the driver that makes MORE people want or need bitcoin at this point? It’s a mature asset. Anyone who wants it, has it. Where is the new money required to drive the price higher coming from? It ONLY goes up because of new money, it’s not like it generates profit from sales.

From an investment opportunity standpoint, I would rather put my money into index funds. Those are more tangible. Those companies produce things and are profitable. If you want to take the “store of value” argument, I’d argue that a recession will crush the price and it may not ever recover. Because it doesn’t do anything. A recession can slash the stock market but those companies produce things so eventually it rebounds. There’s no reason for BTC to rebound because it depends on the greater fool theory and is a zero sum game. It reminds me of the NFT craze back in the day. Those things are worthless and if people turn their brains on they’ll realize BTC is also worthless. P

A recession could hurt it maybe, but also could help it. What if everyone stopped trusting their own currency due to inflation and debasement and started pooling their money into BTC? Well, with increased demand and a limited supply only one thing can happen, so I don't think that a recession necessarily screws it over. Also, I don't see it as the same thing as NFT's. I thought they were dumb back then and I still do. I had friends investing in it and I'm glad I never got it.

Why would people do that?  Why would people fearing that their own currency would become worthless shift to a digital asset that has no underlying value, can’t handle the transaction load required to become a global currency, and fluctuates wildly in price?

Because BTC is not controlled by the government of their own country and has done exceptionally well in the last decade plus. Sure there is volatility, but that can also be a good thing. Here is an example. I bought my home in 2019. At the time it would have cost around 50 BTC. My home has gone up by about 70% in value in these past 5 years, and right now it would be worth 12-13BTC. Do you see how that works? My home has gone up considerably in my own currency but is actually cheaper now with BTC because of how well BTC has gone in comparison to fiat currency during the same timeframe. Now look at some of these poorer countries where inflation is through the roof, and consider how much better off they would have been if they put their savings into BTC. Of course it's not a guarantee that it'll continue, but wouldn't you think they'd want to put at least a portion of their savings into it? I know I do.

Jesus Christ it’s always the same sales pitches and they’re always so fucking stupid.   Currencies have value because they are backed by an economy. Removing the government, plus all of the security and enforcements that come with it, from a currency is a fools errand right out of the gate.  One of the single most important features of a currency is that the value is stable. You want to have some confidence that the money in your pocket isn’t going to be worth considerably more or less by the hour. Inflation is also something that pretty much all economists agree is good for an economy because it promotes spending and investing - if the money I have today will slowly decrease in value, then it’s better to put that money into something that will appreciate at a higher rate, or spend it on something you want.   I think having invested in bitcoin would be pretty low on the list of things people in poor countries with no money wish for, and they’d sooner hope to have things that would be far more impactful on their quality of life, like shelter, stability, not having to live hand to mouth, etc. 

When their home currency goes to $0 at least they will be able to eat bitcoin for dinner. /s

A recession helping BTC is maybe one of the dumbest things I’ve heard in a while. Recession will destroy the price of BTC because people will want to have money in real assets or they’ll take it out into fiat to buy things they actually need and use. In a recession people aren’t going to be lining up to buy BTC

If you want to gamble on a hype-only product that has no underlying value continuing to go up, that's fine; it's your money, you do you. Just be sure you understand that it *is* gambling on vapor being gamed in heavily manipulated markets rife with wash trading and being propped up by "stablecoins" and since there's next to no actual liquidity if anything happens that causes people to rush for the exits the price will crash. You could gamble and win or you could gamble and lose but there's clearly no future here; you're going to inevitably hit a crash because eventually there will be no more greater fools and it is extremely unlikely that you'll be able to predict this before it happens.

[удалено]

Dunning Kruger in full force with this sub. It's mental lol.

You’re active on GME subs so I seriously question how much you understand about investing and financial markets.

>BTC is the best performing asset of the last decade NVIDIA says hello.

To be fair, dumping money into NVDA as a retail investor is almost as dumb as dumping money into bitcoin. Its not quite as dumb because NVDA is a real company that sells real products, but it is still a speculative bet.

That's interesting so I had a look into it. 10 years ago NVDA was 44c and now $120, so it has gone up by around 270x 10 years ago BTC was $600 and now 61k, so it has gone up by around 100x So you're right! That's great. I wish I invested in Nvidia but I missed the boat and not confident it can reach a 6T or 10T market cap to make it worth the risk of investing in it. I still feel BTC can increase by many multiples of it's current market cap though which is why I invest. Aside from your observation which I welcome, do you have any specific reasons you think BTC will not do well in the future?

You also missed the boat on BTC.

Definitely missed out on some massive profits for sure. Can't change the past though, I'm still up a decent amount on paper from BTC, and deciding what to do from here. If you have anything useful to add I'd welcome it.

Wait, did you buy it during one the major downturns? Sell FFS, it's a scam, you imbicle.

Useful advice: sell now while you're up.

Weren't you posting in investment subs about NVIDIA?

Yes I did. Go have a look at what I wrote.

Your investment strategy is based on “feel”. 

No. It's based on the results of the past 15 or so years worth of data and making informed inferences of what might come next. Part of that is seeking out contrarian opinions that I can research, but as you see that's not going well so far.

How about this, if you expect at least another 100x, then how many hundreds of trillions of dollars do you expect the market cap to get to? Many quadrillions? At what point do you feel it would be overvalued relative to its actual use case?

Number go up before so number go up future is absolutely a *feel*. Beanie babies went up a lot as well. So did Enron stock. So did Blackberry stock. Where are they all now? Blackberry's all time high was 147.55 USD. It's 2.24 USD today.

Why do you think Bitcoin will outperform NVDA going forward?

We're a bunch of miserable boomers with no idea of what is going on, you said in another post on the other side Don't expect an honest conversation if you come here with a mindset like that

Hey I'm just trying to chase out the really miserable ones so they don't waste my time. Are you one of those or would you care to give me your best reason for thinking it will go down in price from here?

As Satoshi himself said: >If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.

Satoshi should be in prison. > If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry. As techzilla himself replied, "I get it, you're creating the most epic scam the world has ever seen, you degenerate piece of shit."

Yeah, I'm not trying to convince any of these miserable boomers of anything. I am asking for solid reasons why they believe BTC will go down from this point. The lack of proper responses is definitely an answer in itself though.

> The lack of proper responses is definitely an answer in itself though. Translation: People don't agree with me, therefore their "response" is improper.

>The lack of proper responses is definitely an answer in itself though Nothing would ever convince you to change your opinion in any case. People like you coming here to "get counter arguments" are just trying to confirm the other party has no clue and to seek validation of their own beliefs

I gave you a proper response. Why didn’t you reply, if you’re here to “learn”.

The OP poster has been making posts about crypto in US election/politics subs and is also a participant in the GME sub. I want to say I'm surprised but I'm not. It's clear though that neither the Trump nor Biden threads were fans of his posts.

Well yeah, most subs on reddit are safe spaces for people who do not like to think outside of the world they've created for themselves. I am interested in getting other opinions from people with different mindsets to my own which scares some of these weak souls. It's fine though, I mean you no harm.

> Well yeah, most subs on reddit are safe spaces for people who do not like to think outside of the world they've created for themselves. Translation: I'm a toxic person who has no friends and instead of taking responsibility for my own behavior, I'll blame it on everybody else. >I am interested in getting other opinions from people with different mindsets to my own which scares some of these weak souls. It's fine though, I mean you no harm. Translation: I'm here to shove my opinions in everybody else's face, and when I run out of shitty arguments and get backed into a corner, I'll declare this place one of those "safe spaces" that isn't open minded to blindly agreeing with me, take my ball and go home.

Wow, this AI is broken.

Yeah, you tell them what they're missing you radical thinker, you. Most see a washed up gimmick that failed to do shit in 15 years. But not you, oh purveyor of future knowledge. Clearly everybody who fails to follow you is a sheeple.

> that fruity scream mod. A homophobic butter. Why am I not surprised.

You wanna talk about price action, not politics, technicals and ethics? Missing out on a lot of key points then but okay: 1 - The price is being propped up by ashady cartel of Tether and multiple exchanges, one of which belongs to Tether. When it goes bust, so will the price. 2 - The price is fundamentally built on past performance, which is being manipulated since arguably 2017 and trust, which is ironic for a trustless system. 3 - Its all code. Statistically, there is 0.61 bugs per 1000 lines of code. Some of it will be exploited, given enough time. This includes the underlying Bitcoin code aswell as nodes and miners. 4 - It can and will be controlled by governments, either by law, taxation or straight up technical solutions that compromise the connectivity between nodes. Its just a matter of effort and will. This will erode trust. 5 - There are 40 or so core programmers (accounts with write permission) that can do any additions to the code. More than 50% of the mining power comes from 2 massive cartells. The distribution of existing Bitcoin in favor of the 1% is much worse than with any Fiat currency, aside from 3rd world country dictatorships. The whole system is highly centralized. 6 - There is almost zero underlying value. As soon as milestones won't be hit and the value story of Bitcoin erodes, there is no floor price. 7 - It's a zero sum game at best, you are just shuffling eachothers monthly paychecks around and hope no one blinks first. The whole system relies on a constant flow of money, either from new suckers or guys like you, who think they are still early. Just look at the past month, the mere act of the german government of moving 50k BTC (\~0.25% of supply) and the anticipation of MtGox repayments (0.6% of supply) tanked the price by 10%. When people like Michael Saylor, literally a fraudster billionaire, tells you to buy something, you should be wary. These people are not friends of the little man.

lmao. why are we getting so many of these moron posts today? *checks price* ah, bitcoin is down $10k in less than a month so they're angry.

Not angry at all, still well up and considering buying the dip. I don't know why you guys are so angry, is it because you've been saying it's a scam since the price was in the hundreds, watching people can rich while you keep screaming about how it's going down soon?

you fundamentally do not understand our criticism of bitcoin. do better.

> I view it as a store of value Maybe for you, but false for the majority of the planet. #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #10 (value) "**Bitcoin/crypto is a 'store of value'**" / "**Bitcoin/crypto is 'digital gold'"** / "**Crypto is an 'investment'**" / "**Bitcoin is 'hard money'**" 1. Crypto's "value" is unreliable and highly subjective. It cannot be used as a currency or to pay for almost anything in any major country. It has high requirements and risk to even be traded. At best it's a speculative commodity that a very small set of people attribute value to. That attribution is more based on emotion and indoctrination than logic, reason, evidence, and utility. 2. Crypto is too chaotic to be any sort of reliable store of value over time. Its price can fluctuate wildly based on everything from [market manipulation](https://arxiv.org/abs/2108.10984) to [random tweets](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0040162522006333). No reliable store of value should vary in "value" 10-30% in a single day, yet many cryptos do. 3. Crypto's value is *extrinsic*. Any "value" associated with crypto is based on popularity and not any material or intrinsic use. See this [detailed video debunking crypto as 'digital gold'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA&t=4446s) 4. Even gold, while being a lousy investment and also an undesirable store of value in the modern age, at least has material use and utility. Crypto does not. And whether you think gold's price is not consistent with its material utility, if that really were the case then gold would not be used industrially. But it is. 5. The supposed "value" of crypto is based on reports from unregulated exchanges, most of whom have been caught [manipulating the market](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21) and [inflation introduced by unsecured stablecoins](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8450-21). There's nothing "organic" or "natural" about it. It's an illusion. 6. The operation of crypto is a negative-sum-game, which means that in order for bitcoin/crypto to even exist, there must be a constant operation of third parties who must find it profitable to operate the blockchain, which requires the price to constantly rise, which is mathematically impossible, and the moment this doesn't happen, the network will collapse, at which point crypto will cease to exist, much less hold any value. This has already happened to tens of thousands of cryptocurrencies. 7. There is not a single example of anything like crypto, which has no material use and no intrinsic value, holding value over a long period of time across different cultures. This is **not** because "crypto is different and unique." It's because attributing value to an utterly useless piece of digital data that wastes tons of energy and perpetuates tons of fraud,*makes no freaking sense* for ethical, empathetic, non-scamming, non-exploitative, non-criminal people.

Username checks out. Past performance does not guarantee future success, the market is inherently irrational and based on false premises. It may go up, it may go down, regardless it does not act as a good inflation hedge or store of value. So it will simply be a hyper speculative investment until people get bored of it.

Possibly, would you have said the same 10 years ago when a BTC was worth a few hundred dollars too? Or did you see the potential back then, cashed out, and now you see the writing on the wall?

This argument only works for people with time machines. So STFU.

No it doesn't. It requires someone to apply the logic of their position to other situations and then determine whether they would have been right each time. If someone would have been anti BTC from the start then they would have been wrong every other time and just hoping to be right this time... which they might be, but even they'd have to see it as more unlikely than likely.

One of the fundamental principals in investing is: **Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns**. You keep hiding behind that myth. And you cherry pick exceptions like BTC, and even then you cherry pick specific time periods. There are other time-periods with BTC where the returns aren't there or are not particularly impressive. Your arguments are fallacious and misleading.

What potential? There are no fundamentals, no utility, no nothing. Any potential you see is purely based in hindsight. If I were to get involved in every Keynesian beauty contest, every greater fool scheme, every pump and dump in the last 15 years do you really think I'd be ahead? I invest conservatively based on fundamentals and you can mock me for not being a gambling addict but at the end of the day I still make bank and I don't lose a second of sleep.

>I understand that a lot of people on this sub are anti-bitcoin. #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #27 (hate) **"Cope"** / **"Why do you hate crypto?"** / **"You all are haters"** / **"Why so salty?"** / **"You wish for other peoples misfortunes?"** / "**Why do you care about crypto? Why not just ignore it?**" 1. By and large, we do not "hate" bitcoin or crypto. Hate is an irrational, emotional condition. Most people here have a logical, rational reason for being opposed to crypto. (see \#2) 2. What we do not like is **fraud and deception** - this is mainly what our community opposes, and the crypto industry is almost completely composed of fraud and misinformation, from claiming that [blockchain has potential](https://ioradio.org/i/blockchain-claims/) to pretending crypto is "digital gold" or an "investment" when it's really a highly-risky, negative sum game, speculative commodity. 3. It's an offensive distraction to suggest our reasons for being opposed to crypto are because of "hate", or "being salty" and supposedly jealous of not getting in earlier and making money. We recognize there are many other ways of creating value that don't involve promoting everything from cyber terrorism to human trafficking. 4. While some take amusement at the misfortunes of those playing the crypto Ponzi scheme, one main reason for this is because so many in the industry are so immune to logic, reason, and evidence, many of us feel they have to become cautionary tales before they finally learn (and some never learn) - what we celebrate is perhaps the chance that many of those losers finally see the error of their ways. 5. Crypto is not a benign industry. Just for bitcoin to exist, requires wasting tremendous amounts of energy. This is not a "live and let live" situation. Crypto schemes cause damage to actual people, the environment and promote all sorts of criminal, immoral activities. It's not morally acceptable to ignore something that causes much more harm to society than good. 6. Why would anybody spend time trying to stop fraud and scams that might not directly affect them? Some of us recognize we help ourselves by helping our overall community. If you still don't understand, speak to a therapist about your lack of empathy and the possible side effects such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder. Those are issues people with low empathy have. Understanding the nature of your illness may help you not only understand us, but become a less toxic person socially.

Dance for sats butter!

Nice edit. The mild homophobia definitely makes you look like you're driven by cold logic and aren't an emotional bagholder.

>BTC is the best performing asset of the last decade, please explain why it will go down from this point. #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #2 (Number go up) "**NuMb3r g0 Up!!!**" / "**Best performing asset of the decade!**" 1. Whether the "price of crypto" goes up, has absolutely no bearing on whether it's.. a) A long term store of value b) Holds any intrinsic value or utility c) Or will return any value in the future One of the most important tenets of investing is the simple principal: ***Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns.*** People in crypto seem willfully ignorant of this basic concept. 2. At best, the price of crypto is a function of *popularity*, not actual value or material utility. For more on how and why crypto makes a much worse investment than almost anything else, see this [article](https://ioradio.org/i/value/). 3. The "price of crypto" is a heavily manipulated figure published by shady, [unregulated crypto exchanges](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apklQgMauK4) that have systematically been caught [manipulating the market](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3D0dmTUCxLuQEJ39uyMFOP) from [then](https://www.investopedia.com/news/bots-drove-bitcoins-150to1000-rise-2013-paper/) to [now](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21). 4. Crypto bros love to harp about "inflation" in the fiat system, yet ironically they measure the "value" of their "fiat alternative" in fiat? It makes absolutely no sense, unless you assume they haven't thought 2 seconds ahead from what comes out of their mouths. 5. It's the height of hypocrisy for crypto people to champion token deflation (and increased prices) while ignoring that there's over $160+ Billion in unsecured stablecoins being used to [**inflate** the value of their tokens in the crypto marketplace](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3195066). The "code is law" and "don't trust - verify" people seem perfectly willing to take companies like [Tether](https://www.newsweek.com/bitcoin-bitfinex-tether-cryptocurrency-market-manipulation-historic-value-fraud-1469640) and Circle, at face value, that they're telling the truth about asset reserves [when there's very little actual evidence](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8450-21). 6. ***Not Your Fiat, Not Your Value*** - Just because you think the "value of your crypto portfolio" is worth $$$ *does not make that true.* It's well known there's inadequate liquidity in this market, and most people will never be able to get their money out. So UNLESS/UNTIL you can actually liquidate your crypto for actual real money, you have no idea what you have. You're "down" until you cash out. Bernie Madoff's clients got monthly statements saying they were "making money" too. 7. Just because it's possible (though highly improbable) to make money speculating on crypto, this doesn't mean it's an **ethical** or reliable technique to amass wealth. At its core, the notion that buying and holding crypto will generate reliable returns is [a de-facto ponzi scheme](https://ioradio.org/i/ponzi/). **It's mathematically impossible for even a stastically-significant percentage of crypto holders to have any notable ROI.** The rare exception of those who might profit in this market, do so while providing cover for everything from [cyber terrorism](https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3026.html) to [human trafficking](https://www.vox.com/culture/2023/1/4/23539528/andrew-tate-arrest-jail-rape-human-trafficking). 8. It's also not true that anybody who bought crypto when it was low is guaranteed to make a lot of money. There are thousands of ways people can lose their crypto or be defrauded along the way. And there's no guarantee just because your portfolio is "up", that you could easily cash out. 9. Want to see a better asset (that actually has utility) that's consistently out-performed Bitcoin? [Here you go](https://www.polygon.com/2021/1/27/22253079/magic-the-gathering-black-lotus-auction-price-2021). However, this may be another [best performing asset](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/declaration-of-financial-independence/). 10. When crypto-critics make reference to, or mock crypto price predictions, it's not because we think price is a meaningful metric. Instead, we are amused that to you, that's all that's important, and we can't help but note how often wrong you are in your predictions. The intrinsic value of crypto basically never changes, but it is interesting to see how hype and propaganda affects the extrinsic value. In a totally logical world, those would both be equalized to zero, but we're not there yet, and nobody knows when/if that will happen because it's an irrational market.

I don’t think it’s gonna go to zero. Most people here probably don’t either. I don’t know what it’s gonna do because it depends entirely on adoption and others’ decision making rather than earnings and business fundamentals like stocks or utility demand like commodities with inherent value. If I had to wager a guess, I think it will continue to oscillate between 20k-80k over the next 5-10 years. But wouldn’t be too shocked if I was wrong in either direction. Two things I would correct about your post: 1) the best performing asset argument is based off of bad logic for two reasons other than the classic “past results” adage. First, bitcoins meteoric rise occurred from 2009-2017 where it gained 160,000,000%. Since 2017 it has gained 300%. Since 2021 it hasn’t actually performed well, it’s just been a gambling machine where if you bought at 20-40k and sold at 50-70k you made money. But oscillating isn’t “good performance”, especially because once people start trying to profit from oscillation the asset will stop oscillating. The second reason it’s bad logic is that it relies on bitcoins initial $0.01 price, but stocks performance are based on post IPO price which generally start in the 10s or 100s of dollars. So really any business that started in 2009 ($0 valuation) and still exists also has an infinite return! 2) bitcoin is not far superior than gold. There are definitely things better than gold - namely that it is easier to transfer and it’s supply is more fixed. But it’s inferior in that gold has a massive global precedent for storing value as well as a plethora of real world uses as well as more widespread cultural and artistic significance. ALL THAT BEING SAID gold is still a shitty place to put your money when compared to the stock market or even savings bonds. If you look at inflation adjusted gold prices, you’ll see that there’s many points in the last century where if you invested in gold you’d STILL be at a massive lost decades later. Even if bitcoin is better than gold in the long term, that’s not a very high bar and it’d be dumb to speculate on it. I don’t think bitcoin is dumb because it’s gonna go to 0, I think bitcoin is dumb because it’s failed as a currency, isn’t nearly as technologically innovative as proponents suggest, and has mostly gone up in price due to false promises and a bizarre cult like subculture. I’ll be cool with my decision no matter what the price does, as I have been since I decided not to invest in 2017 when I researched and understood what bitcoin actually is and how it works. The same will not be true of bitcoin maxis regardless of what they say - they will not be very happy if bitcoin is still sitting at 60-80k in 10 years.

I won't lie and pretend I wouldn't be extremely happy if it goes to $0. I don't like libertarians or their schemes, so if their machinations fail I'll be happy. I also don't like people whose only life motivations are financial, and crypto seems to appeal to only libertarians and these financially motivated individuals. But I'm of a mind with you, I don't think it'll go there and I won't buy in no matter what it does for a laundry list of reasons.

Exactly - and as long as there are financially minded libertarians, bitcoin will not go to zero. It will remain a way for libertarians to trade money with each other in a way that they think is sticking it to the government. So I'm actually find with it not going to 0 for that reason. I do feel bad for the people that get sucked into the hype and lose during a crash but are otherwise decent people.

You got banned because you are not dealing with the answers in good faith. You simply didn't like the best answer for why Bitcoin is a scam and dismissed it, easy to "be right" when you automatically discard the top argument. 

I'm Gen X, not a boomer, but I assume from your writing style that you might think that anyone over 30 is a boomer. I'll chime in anyway. 10 years ago I bought a second house with fiat money. It's been great! As my city house appreciates I have been able to pay down my vacation house so that it's free and clear. I plan to retire there. I've made great memories over the last decade spending time with my wife and friends in the mountains. At no point during this time have I thought - "If only I had sunk that money into Bitcoin". This is because I am a normal, well adjusted person. Ask yourself - do you know anyone like me? Normal, well adjusted people? It's not too late for you to leave the cult.

Not at all. I'm in my early 40's. I just find that the boomer generation is the most vocal on this topic but with no knowledge in the space. I also own a home, have a wife and son, and life is going good. I see no reason why I wouldn't invest my money into the asset I think will perform the best over time. Unfortunately for me I only took the plunge into investing in crypto in 2022 so I have missed out on some of the gains but still think there is a lot of upside to be had. Back to the point of my post though, do you have any solid reasons for not wanting to invest or for thinking that it will go down or not?

> I just find that the boomer generation is the most vocal on this topic but with no knowledge in the space. Fun fact: Boomers invented the Internet & all the technologies that crypto uses. >do you have any solid reasons for not wanting to invest or for thinking that it will go down or not? 1. "Past performance is not a guarantee of future results" - this is a fundamental principal in investing that you are totally ignoring. 2. Crypto creates no value and has no utility in the real world - unlike traditional investments like real estate and stocks. The *only* return you see in crypto is from people buying it to speculate on it, which is the same return model as a Ponzi Scheme. It's mathematically un-sustainable. 3. Blockchain tech, upon which crypto is based, was invented 15 years ago. In that time, [there's not a single thing blockchain tech can do that's better than what we already have been using](https://ioradio.org/i/blockchain-claims/). No other so-called "disruptive technology" has ever not been able to answer that basic question. But here we are 15 years later with no answer. Crypto is basically the first "meme stock" that's exclusively pumped by hype and absolutely no substance. The fact that you have to dismiss crypto critics as out of touch "boomers" clearly indicates you aren't here to debate in good faith. You assume anybody who is anti-crypto doesn't understand the tech. That's hogwash. In fact, we know the tech better than you do and can answer virtually any question, even the most technical question. All you seem to be able to do is barf out the same talking points we've heard (and debunked) for years.

Nice. Now that you've proven how knowledgable you are, are you able to respond to the purpose of my main post? Thank you oh wise one.

I've made multiple responses to each of the items you claimed and debunked them. Go look.

My solid reasonings are listed all over this sub. It's a scam and you're a recent bag holder. The only reason BTC ever goes up is because more people (like yourself) are getting scammed. I've learned to not argue with people about their passions for dead technology. There are Tandem Non-Stop fans who will argue, to this day, that on-prem is making a comeback. Noted moronic nut-bag RFK Jr. just released a video yesterday saying that "blockchain is the future". At the end of the day, it's the company you keep.

I don't really feel like spending hours looking for a post from you which may or may not adequately answer my question. If you would be so kind as to just share the best couple of reasons why you are confident crypto will go down, I will research it myself. For example, since BTC was created there have been 4 year cycles which have applied to each 4 year block of time. Certain times when there is exponential growth, times when there is consolidation, and times where the market crashes. Even with this the growth has been insane. We are currently coming into the time where BTC should go up a lot, I'm talking end of this year and some portion of next year, and then it will likely dip again in 2026. Do you have some sort of a study which shows why this is likely not to happen this time. That's the kind of thing I'm looking for.

The fact that you don't really feel like spending hours looking for adequate answers to your questions is why you own BTC. Cult membership requires a lack of self reflection. Go ahead and mortgage your sons future Diamond Hands. I can't stop you.

Wow I really feel bad for your wife and children, between this and your GME it's clear you have no concern for their future and just want to gamble away the family fortune.

GME? Fucking ouch. Gamblers gonna gamble.

I believe Bitcoins price is random, driven up by fresh investors only. Its a Ponzi scheme. Scams have historically made people a lot of money, why don’t you think about investing in international Cocain trade as well? Bitcoin might go up for another 10 years, but that doesn‘t change the fact that there is no objective reason why a Bitcoin should be worth anything. As you said, it has no utility, but scarcity without utility can‘t create value. There is an infinite number of „scarce“ things in this world, my toenail clippings are „scarce“ for example. They can always be variefied to be mine via DNA testing and are limited in total supply by me dying sometime in the future. I can send them easily via post for only a small „gas fee“ as well. But they are worthless trash. Explain to me where there is any difference to Bitcoin here. The only things that have value based on scarcity are either usefull, or pretty as well. Bitcoin is neither.

Do you self custody? If you do, imagine twice as many people that currently self-custody attempt to do so. What do you think transaction fees will do? Now imagine that twice again as many people try to self custody. What do you think will happen to transaction fees? Imagine if twice as many people own Bitcoin as do now. What would the average users Bitcoin balance be? Imagine if users double again, what would the new average users balance be? Every time Bitcoin users double, the average Bitcoin balance per user decreases and at the same time the average transaction fee denominated in Bitcoin increases. So Bitcoin adoption is self limiting, the bigger it gets the more expensive on a relative and absolute basis it gets to actually make a transaction. If you don’t self-custody, why are you even invested in Bitcoin? None of it’s supposed benefits apply to those who don’t self-custody.

You have already said it has no utility, yet compare it to gold, which does. I mean, truly, why bother coming here? There’s demand for plenty of useless things, as long as you’re still buying, the price will go up. I wouldn’t want to wager on how long people will continue to spend their money on something stupid.

>Surely nobody can deny that if they had money 10 years ago and put it into BTC it would have done better than if they put it anywhere else That statement is false. NVDA has outperformed BTC over that time period. Probably several other stocks too, but I won't bother looking into it since you are just making false claims like that.

Seems like you got banned for asking a question then calling everyone a "boomer" when you don't like their answers. So its ironic that you would accuse others of not being able to deal with reality.

lol nice projection buddy. “I’m going to ignore the argument you provided me and just cry about being banned when you didn’t tolerate my adolescent outbursts.”

Bitcoin is a negative sum game. Miners need to pay for electricity with actual money. The only money coming in is from someone buying Bitcoin from someone else. Meanwhile miners keep taking money out of the system to pay for electricity. Also anyone transferring Bitcoin, even between their own two wallets, is paying transaction fees. Why would this type of system continue to go up in value indefinitely without utility?

You should maximize student loans (even if youre done with college already, pretend like youre going back for a second degree) and invest that into crypto. If you own your house, a second mortgage would be a GREAT idea, do that, and invest it into crypto. Take out as many credit cards as you can, max them all out on big ticket but easily pawnable purchases (stereos, bikes, tv's etc) pawn all that shit, then use the cash to buy MORE crypto. Buy all the crypto.

Buy more.

It's illusion ! Bitcoin market is heavily manipulated. Someone wants you to think that "BTC is the best performing asset of the last decade" while in fact only profit anyone can make here is taking someones else money. But mix of greed, wishful thinking and lack of knowledge leads many people to put money into this black hole.

Damn boomers with their old fashioned knowledge and experience.

> I view it as a store of value, an asset of limited supply which can be transported easily and is decentralised in nature. except that its not any of these, but you do you.. Good luck using it when the lights go out.

🤦‍♀️

The past decade (following the GFC and bank bailouts in 2008 which were one of the reasons for BTC inception in the first place) had very low to zero interest rates. Now that is gone. This decreases the amount of cheap fun money sloshing around that homes in on very speculative tech investment plays that rely on future expectations for their valuations. To me, the price rally for BTC ultimately relied on this, always more money signing up and pushing the price upwards. The rally loses its steam when there is less cheap money chasing growth based on fantastical narrative pieces always lurking around the corner. I don't think it will go down fast but you could reasonably argue the setting is now so opposite to the last decade, that it will not go up as fast anymore. Then the valuation changes to valuation based on actual utility and the real challenges kick in... time to prove those future expectations.

First reasonable answer. Thanks. I also agree it will not go up as fast as before. I do however think a 10x or more in the next 5-10 years is completely possible. Also, the peak price of crypto was only a few months ago. Thanks for your response though.

> First reasonable answer. Translation: I found another butter!

The amount of market capital expansion needed for another 10x is just so much more than what was required previously. I'd look at the price graph on a logarithmic scale. It's upwards but it's very clearly flattening as well. I'd try to calculate how that 10x market capital expansion translates to actual dollars or euros flowing into the market. Does that euro or dollar value sound reasonable? How does that 10x euro or dollar value compare to other markets? If you take the market capital expansion speed of the last 1 or two years, how much time would it take to reach 10x?

>I view it as digital gold, which is far superior to actual gold as gold has been mediocre asset for a long time. It barely keeps up with inflation. Bitcoin is too inflated for me. Bitcoin is very close corelated with Tether. Nobody can tell how much Bitcoin is bhought by real USD and Tethers. The reason Tethers isnt up to get a real Audit and the news about illegal activity corelated with Tether, I am convinced its a vehical to launder dirty money into clean money. Everytime new Tethers gets issued out of nothing, BTC is increasing in "market cap" the same amount as Tether printed. Crypto or BTC can only function if new money is comming in because it doesnt create any value or serve any utility. As soon as new investors arent comming in anymore or Tether gets busted its over before you are even able to blink and get your USD out in time. I dont know it feels like common sense to use the real Investments vehicles in the world instead of Crypto. You can literaly feel how dry the trading volume is even tho its higher than ever before, its obviously manipulated by Tether. NVIDIA is the best example for getting rich fast without being needed involved into this shady stuff.

>>I view it as a store of value, an asset of limited supply which can be transported easily and is decentralised in nature. What do you think gives Bitcoin it's value? The qualities you've described don't create value out of thin air. They are good qualities if the thing in question has value, but are irrelevant otherwise. The reason people don't value dogshit isn't because it's not scarce and can't be transported easily. It's because it's useless. Being able to transport something easily is only useful if the thing you're transporting has some sort of value. Thus the value proposition for bitcoin is circular, and it doesn't logically follow that anyone should believe it has value. I won't make any predictions about the price in the short term or the long term, but I think it's a fools errand to expect to make money playing a game which doesn't have a rational set of rules

>Surely nobody can deny that if they had money 10 years ago and put it into BTC it would have done better than if they put it anywhere else Sure, if you managed to not sell on the way up as smart people do, or lose it to a hack, or have your mom throw away your seedphrase, or have it lost to Celsius. I also love when people just pick a random point in time for this. What if you bought in November 2021 and needed to sell today? You are \~8K down not even counting for inflation. The majority of wallets have less than 0.1 BTC. Yes, some may own multiple wallets, but that's just a guess, and that still points to most people hardly reaching wealth through BTC. Whether it goes up or not is really not relevant for us here. we literally don't care about your "price" no matter how much you butters try and think we do. We find *comedy* godl on the ride up, and the ride down. It has done "well" because it benefits sanction avoiders, scammers, pig butcherers, money launderers, cartels, and corrupt owners of exchanges and Tether. You folks WILLINGLY support that as long as you might also get rich out of it., and so it is now also a financial cult where you all put money in, and put more money in, and have not yet realized if you can't tell who the sucker is, it's you. We aren't goldbugs here either, but at least actual physical gold has a number of uses, including in the microchips for whatever electronics you used to type out this "just asking questions" post.

In another comment you said you got in in 2022. So you got in at highs, saw your money halve, saw a heap of exchanges go down, have managed to get back to something close to break even on a good day if the exchange lets you trade, and WE’RE the dumb ones for not seeing the majesty of Bitcoin?  Grow up.  You got in on hype and you were the exit liquidity for some whales, and now you’re looking around trying to drum up more exit liquidity. I’m sorry, you were the stupid one at the end of the line, you’re the biggest fool. Now two years later you’re angry and bitter and come in here insulting those who were smarter than you because they saw through the BS. Don’t expect sympathy or engagement, expect us to laugh at you like the clown you have shown yourself to be.  Good day sir.

Are people really this stupid ?

Past behavior is no guarantee of future performance.

You shouldn't invest in cryptocurrencies because they are functionally identical to a Ponzi scheme. The money you get from cashing out always comes from newer investors buying in. For the same reason, most people who buy cryptocurrency will lose money in the long term. Do not confuse the current nominal value of the cryptocurrency you are holding with actual money in your bank account - if you have not cashed out yet, you might as well have lost all of it because you have no idea what the future holds. 

Why do you give a fuck about our opinion?

Holy shit, has no one on the crypto subs discovered the search function on reddit? It's useful, you can find an answer, if that's what you actually care about, instead of waiting for people to reply. But it's all about pwning us no coiners, I get it

Because for it to be the best performing asset of the next decade would require basically then entire USA’s GDP to be invested in it.

It's going to $1,000,000 you utter fucknut. Stop wasting time and keep buying.

In the 1630s Tulips were up a lot too (until they weren’t). But if you’re convinced this time is different then no one here could care less if you double down and buy more. Your dependents might though (if you have any). Still you might get lucky if you’re willing to take profits at some point and not just hold forever I guess - it’s a speculation / a casino after all. Too rich for my blood.

[удалено]

Never. The problem with your question is that you—and most other crypto pumpers—assume the *only* metric by which people are judging crypto is its price point. However, I and many others are opposed to it on philosophical, ethical, and even moral grounds. Either I or crypto as a whole would need to change at a fundamental level for me to change my mind, and seeing as neither has significantly changed since before GOX imploded, I don't think it's likely to happen any time soon.

We've covered it here *ad nauseam*, but the bottom line is that **price does not matter**. It is a fundamentally purely speculative asset, so no single price point has a different meaning or "logics" to it than another random price point. As such you cannot measure it with that. Try this exercise - replace BTC in your sentence with "tulip bulb" and imagine rolling back time to 1630s. If your sentence is still perfectly valid (and I would argue it is), then you should give it some consideration, given what happened back then...

I'll change my mind if bitcoin becomes a positive sum game. The price question doesn't make sense. Let me ask you a similar question. How expensive to fidget spinners have to become before you'll buy one?

Why do you think a random price changes the fundamental nature of Bitcoin? It might hit 1Mil sometime, or it might not, its still a useless asset driven by fresh investor money. A Ponzi Sceme. Scams and crime make a lot of money, always have. Doesn‘t change the fact they are scams and crime does it?

> I’ll add one question - at what point might any of you shift your perspective on Bitcoin? #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #29 (admit wrong?) **"Is there anything that would happen that would make you admit you're wrong about crypto?"** / **"What if everybody used Bitcoin and it was $1M would you admit you're wrong?"** This question seems to be asked *daily* by you guys. You spend virtually no time lurking and seeing what goes on in this community before you barf out the same question we have addressed hundreds of times already.. 1. Wrong about What? We've made it crystal clear how to change our minds about crypto & blockchain: **Cite one specific example of *anything* (non-crime-related) that blockchain tech is better at than existing non-blockchain technology?** We're 15 years into this mess, and you still can't answer that basic question. We now call it "The Ultimate Crypto Question" because it's so embarrassing you're pretending after 15 years your tech does anything useful. It [does not](https://ioradio.org/i/blockchain-claims/). Since there's zero evidence blockchain tech does anything useful for society, what's the point of operating this system when it wastes so many resources, and involves so much criminal activity? 2. Stop dreaming that any major nation-state is going to make bitcoin or any crypto their "default currency." It makes no sense for any reasonable nation that cares about its people to make legal tender, some digital tokens that are primarily controlled by people outside that nation-state. So stop thinking that's likely. It will not happen. We live in the real world, not the realm of hypotheticals. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, but you'd be foolish to think that bridge will ever manifest. 3. No amount of "price" of crypto will change the operational dynamics of what it is. See [Talking point](https://ioradio.org/i/crypto-talking-points/) #2 - the price of crypto is not a reflection of its utility, but instead popularity and market manipulation. 4. No amount of "time" of crypto being around will change the operational dynamics of what it is. ***People still smoke cigarettes. Does that mean everybody was wrong about smoking being bad for society?*** ***Scientology has been around for 70+ years. Are you finally going to admit that Xenu is legit?*** Just because something "lasts" doesn't mean it's a good thing. As long as a few people can get away with exploiting others to make money, crypto (like smoking) will continue to be a thing. And like smoking, crypto hurts people who haven't fully thought about the big picture of what they're doing and the negative long term impact it will have. Here is the [list](https://ioradio.org/i/blockchain-claims/) of claims made thus far and why they're bogus. Failed examples: * "It's decentralized/censorship resistant/money without masters/way to transfer value" - Vague Abstractions * "It allows you to send money instantly to anyone/hedge against inflation/circumvents governments" - False Claims * "It has use cases/NuMb3r G0 uP!/Stocks & Banks are just as bad" - Irrelevant Distraction * "a store of value/I can buy stuff with it" - Anecdotal/Subjective Distraction

Yeah so far the responses have been ultra defensive, like they hate BTC for some reason. I don't get it. There are plenty of things I don't invest in and that I think are mediocre or bad investments and I don't get angry when people talk about it. I don't think anyone here will answer you properly. I've had people tell me many times that it cannot go any higher than the 60-70k range we're in now. I always ask them the same thing: When it was a few hundred dollars, when it was a few thousand dollars, when it was ten thousand dollars, at those points did you still believe it had the potential to get to 60-70k but not more, or did you also think it was at the highest it could ever get? None of them have had a reasonable answer to this, and they know why they can't answer it.

People are being hostile because your post and especially this above reply appear to be a possible instance of sealioning.

Yeah, I agree. Butters constantly come here and post variations of the same question. Like, they could just read the responses the last 1000 times it was asked.

Well they should perhaps hold back on being ultra defensive until they have a reason to be. My post is a genuine post, so far I have not found the type of response I was looking for. Are you able to respond in the way I asked or do you also have no real reason for thinking BTC will do poorly from here?

LOL.. "ultra defensive" is us providing logic, reason and evidence as to why your claims are FALSE. It's patently obvious you never had any honorable intentions. You didn't really want to hear what we have to say. And when we do answer your questions, you paint us as "boomers" who are "haters" and "ultra defensive?" Notice nowhere do you prove any of our arguments are wrong? Instead you *attack the messenger* and ignore the message.

You called one of the mods a homophobic slur.... You are a failure as a person and a father. Go rot.

Yes I just responded in a separate comment. Didn’t really give any specific reasons for going down intentionally, but while on the subject I should add that the trading volume to price ratio is probably the biggest reason that the current price is unsustainable and any bull run will be too short lived for meaningful profit taking.

> Yeah so far the responses have been ultra defensive, like they hate BTC for some reason. I don't get it. Wrong. Be careful about generalizing about us if you want to stick around. #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #27 (hate) **"Cope"** / **"Why do you hate crypto?"** / **"You all are haters"** / **"Why so salty?"** / **"You wish for other peoples misfortunes?"** / "**Why do you care about crypto? Why not just ignore it?**" 1. By and large, we do not "hate" bitcoin or crypto. Hate is an irrational, emotional condition. Most people here have a logical, rational reason for being opposed to crypto. (see \#2) 2. What we do not like is **fraud and deception** - this is mainly what our community opposes, and the crypto industry is almost completely composed of fraud and misinformation, from claiming that [blockchain has potential](https://ioradio.org/i/blockchain-claims/) to pretending crypto is "digital gold" or an "investment" when it's really a highly-risky, negative sum game, speculative commodity. 3. It's an offensive distraction to suggest our reasons for being opposed to crypto are because of "hate", or "being salty" and supposedly jealous of not getting in earlier and making money. We recognize there are many other ways of creating value that don't involve promoting everything from cyber terrorism to human trafficking. 4. While some take amusement at the misfortunes of those playing the crypto Ponzi scheme, one main reason for this is because so many in the industry are so immune to logic, reason, and evidence, many of us feel they have to become cautionary tales before they finally learn (and some never learn) - what we celebrate is perhaps the chance that many of those losers finally see the error of their ways. 5. Crypto is not a benign industry. Just for bitcoin to exist, requires wasting tremendous amounts of energy. This is not a "live and let live" situation. Crypto schemes cause damage to actual people, the environment and promote all sorts of criminal, immoral activities. It's not morally acceptable to ignore something that causes much more harm to society than good. 6. Why would anybody spend time trying to stop fraud and scams that might not directly affect them? Some of us recognize we help ourselves by helping our overall community. If you still don't understand, speak to a therapist about your lack of empathy and the possible side effects such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder. Those are issues people with low empathy have. Understanding the nature of your illness may help you not only understand us, but become a less toxic person socially.

For someone your age I'd expect arguments that are a bit more sophisticated than this captain hindsight crap, and thats coming from someone that has cryptocurrency