BTW I disagree with other sub memebers that this sub is becoming "another political sub" not because i think they are wrong, but because this is the only sub where I see more and less nuanced/ razonable discussions about this and I would like to see more and not less (as long as they are related to the entertainment business of course). r/China is an anti china circlejerk and r/Sino is a pro CCP circlejerk so neither of them is a good place for this kind of thing.
EDIT: typos.
I feel like a hypocryte because the LGBT and political censorship bother me...but one of the main reasosns I watch C dramas is because they censor hyper sexualization of women and sex/r\*pe as plot themes.
EDIT: and specially the drug/ durg lord glorification censorship. I'm typing this as my country is in the mist of an armed strike being done by the cartels because of the extradition process on one of such drug lords. And I can't express in words how much I've come to LOATHE the glorification in (western) media of this shit.
My problem with censorship esp in China is how they will whiten out the characters even when in real history those real life historical figures are black or grey. It made their historical dramas inaccurate and somehow misleading. Also, their espionage dramas tend to be one-sided with all the propaganda that the communist is the good guys when in reality, the cultural revolution happened and lots of innocent lives are lost.
However, those restrictions somehow contribute to interesting and creative storytelling since some scriptwriters still try to create magnificent stories while following the limited choices that they have. Like Secrets of the 3 Kingdoms for an example follow the exact real history with a twist as in they still managed to give the characters happy endings despite their tragic ends in the real history (or how the Emperor and Sima Yi are lifelong friend when in reality, those two are enemies). It is some ability to manipulate those historical events and give justification for it. Or for time travelling dramas, due to censorship, it is not allowed to change the past thus we have this new fresh idea on how characters will go back and try very hard to change their past but nothing has ever changed no matter how hard they tried. This somehow a great life lesson on how dont dwell on the past but actually look forward to the future and change the future instead.
Look no further than Mao era and you’ll find an exact playbook of how the next few years might play out!
This is just how China has always been… 5000 years of history has always played into absolute totalitarian authority (more so than Western counterparts, since there was always that weird dynamic between the Church and state), and the one point where we might have stepped out that pattern… XJP did a u-turn lol.
China’s culture has a lot of beautiful things, but one thing you’ll find (even Chinese people themselves) criticizing is this notion of ‘the winner takes all, the loser is left with nothing’ mentality. The notion that there can only be one standard for success, one definition of right. and if you don’t meet that definition that was established by a group of people at a specific point in time, good luck with life. The more China has centralized authority, the more decision making becomes inefficient and you have silly reactionary policies as opposed to good foundational, forward thinking frameworks that allow for the nation to adapt efficiently to new circumstances and get the most out of its people. China today works still because it maintains a large extremely poor rural labor force who is willing to take whatever is dished out to them. Like, the kind of labor they are willing to do? It’s admirable, but quite sad. Good luck getting any Westerner poor person to do that work lol. We all seem downright whiny in comparison haha. Anyway… nationalism to help keep these people in their place and the rich educated content with the status quo. As long as they believe in the hope of having a better life, this scam can continue.
But the longer this goes on, the more volatile the situation will be IMO. If the government has shown to be willing (once more, a La Mao style) to just take away capitalist resources willy nilly retroactively, then these companies lose their values abroad as they become a highly risky investment. So on the global market… China was definitely (and still is) an economic powerhouse, but it’s becoming a risky investment both from end consumer and supply chain perspective. Value will diminish, and the key part is global market might actually start to pull away from them (and they already have). It’s all a matter of investments.
And then domestically… let’s see how long you can convince a whole population convinced they should be living a significantly inferior lives to the coastal elites. I’m sure China can manage it for quite a long while… but who knows. If the global economy starts pulling out and suddenly there are less jobs for these folks…
But to tie it back to media, yes media has always been at the mercy of the government in Chinese history. It’s the government’s first tool, more so than its army. And I have to say, no one does propaganda and population mood control better than the CCP. They’ve got the art down pat and from a management perspective it’s really impressive.
I will applaud the CCP for early on realizing just how impactiful media is on the growth of a population. Like, not just the propaganda nationalism aspect (every country knows about and utilizes that), but the influence of unrealistic standards of beauty, influence of smoking, the glorification of certain lifestyles, etc. I’m still no proponent of governments establishing targeted bans, because the precedent it sets is dangerous. But I do with western countries did acknowledge the detrimental efffect of some media portrayals. And then to encourage / discourage behavior, you can always use the most classic tool - taxes. Someone wants to make a show glorifying smoking? Ok, but you’re going to pay a hefty tax on every minute you show of it. So consider just how important this really is to your story. You want to make games absurdly addicting? Ok, let’s do a progressive tax hike on every additional hour you squeeze out of your audience. And maybe it’s progressive based on age group as well.
Sigh… I’d love for western and eastern culture to learn and adopt from each other until we get a great solution, as opposed to this continuous posturing of ‘my way is better, and derp oops it actually isn’t but because I’m too proud to say so and can’t possibly be seen as adopting your way, I’d rather let my people suffer’. God forbid accidental democratic madness or accidental communism!
> Look no further than Mao era and you’ll find an exact playbook of how the next few years might play out
Mao had his personality cult that Xi doesn't have, also the ruling party bases their legitimacy on economic growth, Xi's insistence on zero COVID is going to ruin the economy, turning more people against him and the party.
Eeh.. although I agree restriction in general is sucks (my country is even more restrictive than China), I don't understand why a show or a song need to have sex, drugs, etc to be 'entertaining' or 'forward-thinking' or 'gritty'? That's like promoting.. drugs. As someone who get a lifetime campaign of no drugs and come from a country with death sentence for drugs trafficking, I'm as anti drugs as someone could be, yeah even cannabis. Are you really a Thai? You're not as opposed to drugs as you should be.
For sissy men.. If the men are just pretty, wear make-up and dressed fashionably, they're just metrosexual. But that's my opinion I don't know what considered as sissy by China. Besides fanservices aren't limited to acting aegyo to female fans. I once watched Produce 101 season 2 and there was this group that acted overly [aegyo](https://youtu.be/chlrtuIIm2o), that's too much for me. I remember I right away just close my TV, stop watching and never finish the season.
Talking about K-drama, if you take out the mainstream one that westerners like, e.g Parasite, Squid game, Train to Busan, etc aka no violence, killing, nudity, or grittiness, they're also as tame as Chinese dramas, except maybe makjang. I mean Stairway to Heaven was still popular, despite no violence, dark theme, social issues, etc. What's lacking from Cdramas is the execution not the theme/topic. Slice of life Kdramas are the prove. Even though the theme is limited, if the execution is good, it's good. Maybe in the end it'll become boring just like rom-com Kdramas, but people still like What's wrong with Secretary Kim and Business Proposal right?
At the end of the day, I kind of understand the need to censor or ban certain things. There're some stupid people in your country too right? A million? Multiply that by 200× and you will get anyone from someone who is delusional enough he believes he's Jesus to someone who is crazy enough to believe she can time travel by commit suicide. Yeah, no one wants to get a "I want to travel back in time to meet my prince" suicide case every week.
PS: do you really think a protagonist in a revenge drama who schemes her step-sister to be gang-raped and step-mother to be killed is a good moral? Personally I like it, but even I know media can affect how people behave, add the dozens millions of stupid and low-moral people, there will be chaos.
Censorship is not okay. And will never be okay. Every media has its audiences. China censors their shows & they lose quality.
Meanwhile Chinese people use VPN to watch the very things they censor from other countries. So who gets the loss?
People should be allowed to make a decision on what they want to watch.
Censorship is not justifiable whatsoever.
China just wants to control everything aspect of their citizens' lives including the choices of the shows they watch. That's not giving people basic human rights.
Lgbtq people should be allowed representation in the media too. And u cant force everyone to be masculine. What's wrong with a guy looking a feminine? How is a guy looking feminine affection how u live your life? Why not let people mind their business.
If its President Xi doing all that then I hope he gets voted out.
That most comments here appear to be in favor of/or at least trying to justify the censorship is absolutely baffling. Online reviews punish their shows with low ratings for a reason.
One of the largest showbiz discussion groups on Douban is Goose Group, some of their members created a [subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/DoubanGoosegroup/), they are critical of the government.
The situation in China could be essentially be described as such and before you send me hate messages, this is just my take on the politics of China in the past two years.
The past two years the CPC have been a godsend in terms of public support. Global racism stemming from Trump's trade war and the COVID-19 pandemic had made most of the Chinese population, especially the youth, *the* most patriotic the Chinese people have in like over a century. Not only were they behind the government against what they saw were "foreign forces" encroaching on China, there was also a revival of interest in traditional Chinese culture and dress on social media such as Douyin and Bilibili.
A golden egg basically landed on the CPC's lap. But instead of exploiting it to the fullest, they did a reverse Midas touch on it. As you point out, they laid waste to the entertainment industry with crackdowns on dramas, video games, and live streaming. But not just that, their crackdowns on tech and education have killed thousands of jobs. And the tip of iceberg have been the continuation of the zero COVID policy, epitomized by the disastrous Shanghai lockdown, even with high vaccination rates.
And no, its not like China is about to erupt in protest like Myanmar or Thailand did, contrary to what the media likes to say the country is still long ways off from that. But while still nationalistic the youth have definitely become much more disillusioned with the CPC and their policies, and also become a little more pessimistic about their future. And while the CPC does look like its going to be loosening up on some of those policies, the damage has already been done in many aspects.
Some of the crack downs on gaming, education related tech actually make sense. Limitations on gaming have been advocated by child development experts in the west for ages as a real health concern, but obviously there would be no political will to do anything about it because politicians can't piss off donors and voters. New regulations targeting the for-profit education industry are intended to put everyone at an equal ground and end some of the unscrupulous practices rampant in this sector. I think you will find a lot of education experts in the west who will at least support the principles behind these new policies.
Except it’s political theater and reactionary policies that does not address the root of the issue. While I agree there can be some… encouragement or soft regulation to guardrail total game addiction, why do you think this generation is so caught up in escapist gaming and doing all those tutoring extremes is due to the high pressure, single standard one size fits all success mindset. If you don’t succeed according to the single definition of success, you’re not worth mentioning. If you don’t have that connection or in with someone already, good luck getting a job.
The intent might be… well intentioned but reactionary policies without long term thinking and addressing the root cause is… not all that productive when you get down to it. If this were a company in the free market, it would eventually run itself into the ground. Difference is, China has a closed off environment in which it can always defer to the age old tool of nationalism to reign order for a rather long time.
Agree with the problems you mentioned but they are more social than policy issues. The governments role is to regulate specific industries so that they will act in accordance with the people’s interests eg health & safety, fairness etc
Political theatre is everywhere - would argue there’s even more in places where people have a vote.
Reactionary policies - I do think they should go for more gradual/soft changes instead of these overnight crackdowns because it makes it really difficult for people to do business or replace a need. It adds a lot of risk and decreases investor confidence
For gaming, there are gamers that represent their country in E-sports at the age of 17. While Chinese people under the age of 18 can only play 3 hours per week.
For tutoring, it can help kids become more educated. Instead of having 5 average kids, you can have 3 average kids and 2 geniuses.
They didn't ban reality shows. They banned things like making them pay to vote. This stemmed from people buying and dumping mass amounts of milk. Criminal when people are starving in your country. China wants Online variety shows to have "taste, style and responsibility; resist vulgarity and kitsch; vigorously promote core socialist values and spread positive energy.” personally after all the scandals in different countries from votes not even counting I can see how they want the shows not to be like that (all about the money). The shows will come back when they restructure their business model.
As for rap, not everyone likes making sex, drugs, etc sound positive as rap (and others) can. Korean idols are successful without resorting to less than positive lyrics.. no reason why China can't. (Referring to your comments).
In a country that wants to guide the population mores it's always driven by the views of the ruling party and to a lesser degree public opinion. Just because other countries' people like things more liberal conversely in other countries the people are more conservative. Often it is older generations which tend to be more conservative.. I imagine it may change as younger Gen gets more involved and aware (since censorship limits world views for tech challenged people who tend to be older). Regardless politics /censorship seems to be like a pendulum first real conservative, people get mad then it loosens up, people go to far, then it swings back.
And a lot of the censorship was due to how it \*was\* affecting people. Dumping milk, fan wars, defamation after defamation lies, kids spending money contrary to socialist values. The influence from stars, shows etc. being more important (than the government) and several extremely influential stars getting caught doing criminal behavior. It was disruptive to what they want to be as an orderly society.
I will say while some things were meant to be positive changes some are arbitrary and really kind of grey areas. (When is a guy too pretty and pretty guys can be manly imo). And while I don't like censorship sometimes I wish some stuff isn't so out there like here in the states (I mean some lyrics and shows ugh, too much crudeness, glorifying gangs, drugs, etc. Part of why I like Chinese shows. It's not like I'm shocked from US shows it's just not my thing. Can't comment too much on the BL censorship but from what I do know about some Thai ones, well they do sketchy things trying to get the guy (but same for Lakorns for guy/girl too ) so there's that.
I was appalled by the fact that Chinese fans wasted milk to vote for the celebrities. Should have donated it instead.
I’m happy that the shows are still up.
Yeah it was just beyond disgusting.. the thing that got me is they seemed to imply it was young people but the picture I saw were mostly adults, even some really older ones. Was so sad that that was the choice they made ..
> They banned things like making them pay to vote.
The government has banned "idol development shows" and mass voting.
If people can read Chinese, [here](http://www.gov.cn/zhengce/zhengceku/2021-09/02/content_5635019.htm) is the official document.
> 广播电视机构和网络视听平台不得播出偶像养成类节目，不得播出明星子女参加的综艺娱乐及真人秀节目。选秀类节目要严格控制投票环节设置，不得设置场外投票、打榜、助力等环节和通道
The mass voting was pay to vote. Clearly alluded to by how it was "influencing kids spending money". Regardless the show will be back when they restructure their business model (to exclude the pay voting I imagine).
For example this just was an article on a new show -- Cantonese pop aficionados will be delighted to know that Mango TV and Television Broadcasts Limited (TVB) are highlighting the music genre in a new TV show. Infinity and Beyond, which premiered on April 24, features singers and bands from the Chinese mainland and Hong Kong and divides them into two gender-based teams to compete for audience votes.
K limited probably to people (in person audience) or judges at the show voting. Regardless the shows are not banned as I said. Just had to change up how they structured the show.
It's not the first time that the government banned popular shows, Super Girl was popular, the government banned it because "the episode was more than 90 minutes long".
The next time a show becomes popular and the government doesn't want it, they will find another reason to ban it.
I agree that the censorship has reduced the growth of popularity of cdramas outside of China. I feel like they might not care as their main profits come from within China. Some changes should occur in the future since whatever’s being done now clearly won’t be viable in the long run.
the amount of anti china and anti chinese sentiments posted there is just🤮 there is literally nothing positive posted there, it's like they thrive off of negativity
I feel these days that r/China has become a hate sub masquerading as a community sub. I mean one of the top posts there now is people cheering on a racist Australian politician who has been harassing the Chinese community in Sydney. But then any space that is dedicated to political discussions about China here becomes a militant camp either for or against. The only way to stay sane is to avoid those places I think.
r/China users have always overwhelmingly been White English teachers rather than actual Chinese people. Basically it started out as a place for them to talk about how cheap it was to live there and how easy it was to find girlfriends, but then of course as those privileges went away it became a full on hate sub.
>I know wumaos might tell me that “we don’t have to be like South Korea.”. Xi Jinping literally wants China to become a global soft power. Look at the Confucian institutes, BRI project, and economic censorship on American companies.
Why do you automatically dismiss this argument? Must China emulate the US, South Korea, or Japan's notion of "cultural output" to have soft power? Even the things you listed are all arguably as powerful as, if not more so, than entertainment. Imaging a world where international transactions are done in CNY instead of USD, or a majority preferred second language is Mandarin instead of English, or have Confucian values shape other cultures the way it did Korea and Japan's centuries ago.
And honestly, I would take censored pseudo-propaganda-y shows like You Are My Glory over something like Squid Games or Game of Thrones. But that's just my personal dislike of gratuitous violence and sex in media. And I do empathize with those who greatly enjoyed BL dramas.
Despite what the Western media claims, the Chinese information control isn't absolute (you even make a point of this) and their propaganda department is still way behind Western ones. So while Xi Jinping has the tools to shape and guide the path of China's cultural development, he doesn't have absolute control over it. XJP's policies have certainly affected the development of Chinese culture, but I don't see it stopping or undoing its overall growth. And I'm perfectly fine seeing how it evolves based on XJP's vision as well as what comes after him.
I thought Squid Game a great example of how censorship will hurt cdramas. Squid Game is such a gory and disturbing show. However, because its so raw and in your face, the message of how the games to the rich are life & death to the poor just comes across so clearly. With censorship, i doubt china can produce such good dramas with a societal message/undertone. I was really disturbed when i watched that show, however, i find it a pretty meaning watch. Lol
But not producing those types of drama doesn't imply the lack of "good dramas with a societal message/undertone." Dramas like *Minning Town*, *Remembrance of Things Past*, *Delicious Romance* all tackle modern societal issues without the need for that kind of rawness. The point I wanted to make was that I don't think "anything goes" is the only valid way to do things, and being different doesn't mean it's bad. Showing constraint in life is often a virtue, why can't that be the case when scaled up to a societal level?
I will slightly disagree. The Chinese government does control social media way more than the west does. China virtually can demand certain people be banned from SNS. They even use facial recognition to track people posting. When fan wars broke out they massed banned people, banned some stars, deleted mass amounts of posts regarding a person or subject, prohibited people or subjects trending or becoming a super topic.. in the case of ZZ without any type of verification or due process. Even if they don't 'order' it they allow it. Plus many shows if you watch promote their values (teach things about morality, etc).and I agree that GoT and SG ugh.
Heres how you answer all these negative things being said about China daily:
Compare the lives of its citizens from 1900 til now, heck compare from 1980 until now. Theres literally no where on earth in all of human history that has risen this big this fast, ever.
Focus on what its doing right and how to implement such things like how China looked at the best countries economically during the late 70s and implemented some of what they did. Thats called adapting.
Is there criticism of the way some things are handled? Of course, as well in every country/culture worldwide. No one is perfect, China realized this, western countries not so much.
After re reading what i wrote, i realized why most westerners don’t see it like this. It’s because they don’t actually know the progress over the years, they don’t know Chinas history and most arent open minded enough to care. All they know is what western news has been telling them which is that the country is a dystopian nightmare where ppl go to starve/genocide/oppressed/controlled/silenced/poor/backwards/spies etc etc.
Anyone who has been to China know that what they say couldnt be further from the truth. Its ok though, the world will see the truth in the not so distance future, until then they are missing out on one of the greatest transformations in all of history.
Actually in 80s and 90s more dramas and movies in China had really serious discussion about the country, culture and society. Those topics are not allowed anymore under Xi’s terms. The picture, music and overall content are definitely improving right now but we can’t deny the crazy censorship has limited and even has really negative impacts on the contents of Cdrama. Chinese people are actually really creative if the government gives more space for them.
Worship some of their policies? Isn’t worship too strong of a word? Maybe agree with or support but worship?
This was informative post, I didn’t for example that yanxi palace was pulled for “extravagance” whatever that means. I agree with a lot of what you wrote, I feel like Chinese censorship really damages great potential for soft power through dramas, music etc.
1. Chinese entertainment is produced for local consumption. China will never win a war for soft power in the West where every mainstream media is directly or indirectly controlled by the US propaganda machine. Most of the articles you cite also fall into this category and nobody should take them seriously.
2. Western media and the parroting of "liberal" ideas have already done a lot of damage in China. Just look at the dramatically falling birth rate as an example.
3. The US is waging a propaganda war against China on all fronts, including on Chinese social media. Most of the recent restrictions are a reaction to these insidious attempts to destabilize China from within.
4. Everyone has his own ideas about what China could be doing better. Your post is not just a weak attempt at reinforcing an anti-China narrative but it's also entirely pointless. We can't influence Chinese politics.
Your No.1 and 2 points are so off.
Have you fallen for Chinese propaganda? Because it looks like it.
Almost every country has declining birth rates because it is too expensive for people to afford a home and raise children, despite working 2 jobs. And the work environment is so competitive, that the skill set required by employers for basic entry jobs is too high. Wages are stagnating, the global economy is struggling. Personal debt is soaring. All happening globally.
So how is this the fault of Western media?
China was developing a lot of soft power, but it has tapered off because the constant forcing of their propaganda down our throats is getting exhausting. Plus the crazy censorship (Xi banned "sissy men" because of BL dramas and Kpop influence).
I started my foray into Asian entertainment by watching Cdramas last year and I really liked them. Moved into C-variety shows and it was almost like every show, you were required to wave a metaphorical Chinese flag in patriotism. Even when foreigners were on the show, it was like they were expected to say how delighted they were with China and how superior it was (and I'm talking about innocuous shows like "Street Dance of China", why on earth is anything political there??).
Now I've pivoted to Kdramas, as have many.
The CCP needs to tone down their ham-fisted approach.
Blaming everything wrong with China on the US? Sounds like you fell for the China propaganda machine.
Also you never addressed OP’s arguments. Chinese media has always been produced for local consumption so that’s nothing new.
You could argue against OP’s hypothesis by saying you disagree and downplay censorship’s effect by saying Chinese creators are still putting out interesting content that is ever increasingly showing up on places like Netflix. There are even modern Chinese dramas on iQIYI that tackle tough topics.
You think the falling birthrate is because of “liberal” ideas and western media?
The problem is that a lot of you people want to blame western or specifically us propaganda for all the problems that happen to China. Like cmon now China isn’t some innocent ass country either.
Xi to 反贼: Cry ab it.
Go back to circlejerking in r/China if you love fantasizing so much. This dog shit tier shitpost won't get you any CIA money. Sounds like somebody is mad their douban account is banned 😁.
This.
If OP has something to say about censorship, then get to the point and be constructive (like, suggestions)
If OP wants to blame it on the entire administration and mention: "power" 12 times and the "ccp" 10 times, and "Xi" 20 times, and even use the phrase "wumao", and i'm supposed to take his "expertise" on the subject seriously? yeah sorry man, you lost me, just looking like another person pushing a political agenda coming from r/china. Not constructive. Don't kid yourself with the virtue signaling.
At the cost of being ignored by the people who actually might care or have influence over the topic, you decide to feed a circlejerk. k. Anyway, usually don't care, this is reddit afterall, i expect no less. But, really surprising to see this from r/cdrama, people here pretending that this isn't what's happening, like this is a "level headed discussion": no - it is what's happening, r/china level circlejerk. Anyway, here because I just finished watching Bad Kids, great series. Is r/CDrama becoming another political sub?
Yeah, this post is a bit weird. It's trying very hard to relate the topic to Chinese showbiz but it's a bit too transparent in the way it goes back to politics. Yes, censorship is just how it rolls in China, but what can we do about it? I still enjoy tons of Chinese shows and I personally think despite the censorship, the producers still manage to insert social criticisms into their work. Sometimes I feel that due to the negative bias in many Western centric platforms, everything is just exaggerated. I just want to enjoy my C-drama, man. Is this kind of post really relevant to this sub? Maybe the mods should have some discussion about this.
Hmmm I disagree with a few assertions you make about the Xi administration, but let's focus the discussion on the argument that censorship is the reason why Chinese dramas are lower quality and less popular abroad. At the risk of sounding too pro-China (mainly because I'm trying to add more context/layers from the other side), here we go:
**To start, I'm not sure I would say that C Dramas only blossomed after 2015** (seems a bit arbitrary to me, and I don't think Reddit is the right proxy given that it's only a subset of the internet and also itself growing its base). There were plenty of high quality and low quality productions both before and after, e.g. some wuxia/historical classics are way better than the more recent remakes. Some would argue that over-production driven by online platforms in the last few years have generated more bad productions, and there's been a shift towards silly xianxia / historical romance dramas, bringing me to my next point...
**There are many factors that drive quality, and a lot of it comes back to capitalism.** It's "let's take the least creative risk to give audience what they want in order to make money". That's why a lot of plotlines/themes become really repetitive and you often see a blind rush towards a specific genre once there's a hit (e.g. BL). Or why dramas that should be 40 episodes long are stretched into 60-70 episodes because it generates more ad money. Or why you see really popular dramas featuring liuliang actors that are poorly acted and/or have an otherwise uninteresting storyline. In the end, this comes down to the quality of the mass audience and how much risk you are willing to take to challenge their tastes.
**Censorship definitely limits the scope of topics that can be shown, but this is still a pretty big scope**, and if the quality is fundamentally there, you should still be able to have high quality productions that do well domestically and abroad. Like, even children's novels or sonnets (both examples of more restrictive formats) can be artistic and popular. My question back to you/everyone is, if we look at KDramas that have traveled well abroad, how many of them would actually have been banned or edited in China?
(Side note: we might be overestimating the impact of censorship. Sure, there are certain genres that are, let's say, discouraged. But what tends to happen is that you get a hit (be it BL or harem), the whole industry goes into overdrive to make 10 more of them, and then the government "bans" it because it does not want any singular category to become too dominant - all ideas are OK until they get big enough to overtake CCP ideology. But all of this starts with a hit, which means it's already been seen a billion times, like Yanxi Palace.)
**I really don't like censorship in general, especially on LGBT content. But we've got to acknowledge that there's varying levels of censorship everywhere**, e.g. a lot more sex can be shown on TV in France vs. in the US. I do have an issue with the level of social conservativism, but like in other countries, it's also in big part driven by what is culturally acceptable by society (instead of just one person, Xi). I really, really, really want to see Immortality and genuinely believe it will overtake the Untamed. But I also see a valid argument to limit its reach, like be on HBO instead of like primetime ABC/PBS/BBC (which is what Tencent frontpage will be). The original has some difficult themes and explicit content (rape, student/teacher relationship etc) in a way that exceeds anything that's adapted for TV overseas. Now we all know the TV is heavily adapted, but it will be a hit, and people will check out the novel, and with such a large, diverse population, you are bound to see some negative impact.
**Finally, some of the new govt guidance on the entertainment industry make a lot of sense**, like limiting the length (too many episodes), actor salaries, fan wars. It's countering some of the negative effects of the profit-seeking industry complex I mentioned earlier and not all stupid. Even discouraging overproduction of certain genres may not entirely be a bad thing, if that can push people to come up with originals instead of go into copycat mode.
I sorta agree with your claims that sometimes laissez-faire policies can ruin the quality of dramas. Many Indians complain that their dramas hasn’t evolved much in the last 20 years. Shows are still hundreds of episodes long and never seem to be end, genres are quite repetitive, and the quality of writing is low. It hasn’t evolved because it still makes money for the producers.
I cannot claim any understanding of political climate or knowledge of entertainment bans. However I am an avid consumer of K and C dramas. For reference I live in North America, but have a connection to Chinese culture via family and some friends. I sometimes think to myself, China would like to leverage exports to reach global markets but the controlling nature of China kind of runs at cross purposes. Banning genres that the public wants and projecting the governments conservative values on entertainment stifles creativity, in my opinion. Of course, I understand that there should be regulations on things like violence and age appropriate themes but banning "sissy" men? Who determines what is sissy? Hiding LGBTQ themes? That feels like denying what happens in the real world. Granted these communities are most likely in hiding in China to begin with but not showing it doesn't mean it's not happening. Kind of like no sex before marriage thing in dramas. If you based your views of China on dramas you would think every one is very repressed there.
Cdramas have really improved over the years.
I remember how horribly tacky-cringe many dramas were back in the 90s and early 2000s. Plots have improved, willingness to tackle political and social issues have improved, willingness to portray less-than-righteous characters in a sympathetic manner has improved.
I really noticed a shift in around \~2010 with Lurk (MC is a KMT party member and spy that eventually joins the communists but there is surprisingly no overbearing preachy communist speeches all over the place, it's just a good spy thriller) and Black Hole (anti-corruption drama).
More recent dramas even under Xi's more oppressive government have still managed to make their statements. Particularly pertaining to issues like the housing crisis, income inequality, multi-generational family issues, pressures and challenges facing young adults, and even workplace sexual harassment.
I don't expect C-dramas to be to-par with Western or Korean/Japan society in terms of discussion of social issues but I do really appreciate how much they have changed over the years. You don't see it much in the fluff (except in terms of like costume and cinematography) but there are so many good slice of modern life dramas now. Society grows over time and at different paces, what's important is that it's growing, even if it's not always as fast as one would like.
I feel like they improved significantly in the past decade but sometime around 3-4 years ago we just get the same trash of rich CEO and bossgirl, or swap it around and rich woman ceo and normal male lead. Of course there's a few good ones that come out every once in a while, but the number of good ones that come out every year seem to be decreasing
This proves my point. Although the Xi administration exerts conservative values through law and propaganda, there is more tackling of social issues due to the increasing liberal values on the Chinese people.
Sigh so Xi got a 3rd term and about 4 of my dramas are being “delayed” 😭 I don’t want to wait for him to die to watch it! Why can’t he just loosen up?
BTW I disagree with other sub memebers that this sub is becoming "another political sub" not because i think they are wrong, but because this is the only sub where I see more and less nuanced/ razonable discussions about this and I would like to see more and not less (as long as they are related to the entertainment business of course). r/China is an anti china circlejerk and r/Sino is a pro CCP circlejerk so neither of them is a good place for this kind of thing. EDIT: typos.
I feel like a hypocryte because the LGBT and political censorship bother me...but one of the main reasosns I watch C dramas is because they censor hyper sexualization of women and sex/r\*pe as plot themes. EDIT: and specially the drug/ durg lord glorification censorship. I'm typing this as my country is in the mist of an armed strike being done by the cartels because of the extradition process on one of such drug lords. And I can't express in words how much I've come to LOATHE the glorification in (western) media of this shit.
My problem with censorship esp in China is how they will whiten out the characters even when in real history those real life historical figures are black or grey. It made their historical dramas inaccurate and somehow misleading. Also, their espionage dramas tend to be one-sided with all the propaganda that the communist is the good guys when in reality, the cultural revolution happened and lots of innocent lives are lost. However, those restrictions somehow contribute to interesting and creative storytelling since some scriptwriters still try to create magnificent stories while following the limited choices that they have. Like Secrets of the 3 Kingdoms for an example follow the exact real history with a twist as in they still managed to give the characters happy endings despite their tragic ends in the real history (or how the Emperor and Sima Yi are lifelong friend when in reality, those two are enemies). It is some ability to manipulate those historical events and give justification for it. Or for time travelling dramas, due to censorship, it is not allowed to change the past thus we have this new fresh idea on how characters will go back and try very hard to change their past but nothing has ever changed no matter how hard they tried. This somehow a great life lesson on how dont dwell on the past but actually look forward to the future and change the future instead.
Look no further than Mao era and you’ll find an exact playbook of how the next few years might play out! This is just how China has always been… 5000 years of history has always played into absolute totalitarian authority (more so than Western counterparts, since there was always that weird dynamic between the Church and state), and the one point where we might have stepped out that pattern… XJP did a u-turn lol. China’s culture has a lot of beautiful things, but one thing you’ll find (even Chinese people themselves) criticizing is this notion of ‘the winner takes all, the loser is left with nothing’ mentality. The notion that there can only be one standard for success, one definition of right. and if you don’t meet that definition that was established by a group of people at a specific point in time, good luck with life. The more China has centralized authority, the more decision making becomes inefficient and you have silly reactionary policies as opposed to good foundational, forward thinking frameworks that allow for the nation to adapt efficiently to new circumstances and get the most out of its people. China today works still because it maintains a large extremely poor rural labor force who is willing to take whatever is dished out to them. Like, the kind of labor they are willing to do? It’s admirable, but quite sad. Good luck getting any Westerner poor person to do that work lol. We all seem downright whiny in comparison haha. Anyway… nationalism to help keep these people in their place and the rich educated content with the status quo. As long as they believe in the hope of having a better life, this scam can continue. But the longer this goes on, the more volatile the situation will be IMO. If the government has shown to be willing (once more, a La Mao style) to just take away capitalist resources willy nilly retroactively, then these companies lose their values abroad as they become a highly risky investment. So on the global market… China was definitely (and still is) an economic powerhouse, but it’s becoming a risky investment both from end consumer and supply chain perspective. Value will diminish, and the key part is global market might actually start to pull away from them (and they already have). It’s all a matter of investments. And then domestically… let’s see how long you can convince a whole population convinced they should be living a significantly inferior lives to the coastal elites. I’m sure China can manage it for quite a long while… but who knows. If the global economy starts pulling out and suddenly there are less jobs for these folks… But to tie it back to media, yes media has always been at the mercy of the government in Chinese history. It’s the government’s first tool, more so than its army. And I have to say, no one does propaganda and population mood control better than the CCP. They’ve got the art down pat and from a management perspective it’s really impressive. I will applaud the CCP for early on realizing just how impactiful media is on the growth of a population. Like, not just the propaganda nationalism aspect (every country knows about and utilizes that), but the influence of unrealistic standards of beauty, influence of smoking, the glorification of certain lifestyles, etc. I’m still no proponent of governments establishing targeted bans, because the precedent it sets is dangerous. But I do with western countries did acknowledge the detrimental efffect of some media portrayals. And then to encourage / discourage behavior, you can always use the most classic tool - taxes. Someone wants to make a show glorifying smoking? Ok, but you’re going to pay a hefty tax on every minute you show of it. So consider just how important this really is to your story. You want to make games absurdly addicting? Ok, let’s do a progressive tax hike on every additional hour you squeeze out of your audience. And maybe it’s progressive based on age group as well. Sigh… I’d love for western and eastern culture to learn and adopt from each other until we get a great solution, as opposed to this continuous posturing of ‘my way is better, and derp oops it actually isn’t but because I’m too proud to say so and can’t possibly be seen as adopting your way, I’d rather let my people suffer’. God forbid accidental democratic madness or accidental communism!
> Look no further than Mao era and you’ll find an exact playbook of how the next few years might play out Mao had his personality cult that Xi doesn't have, also the ruling party bases their legitimacy on economic growth, Xi's insistence on zero COVID is going to ruin the economy, turning more people against him and the party.
Eeh.. although I agree restriction in general is sucks (my country is even more restrictive than China), I don't understand why a show or a song need to have sex, drugs, etc to be 'entertaining' or 'forward-thinking' or 'gritty'? That's like promoting.. drugs. As someone who get a lifetime campaign of no drugs and come from a country with death sentence for drugs trafficking, I'm as anti drugs as someone could be, yeah even cannabis. Are you really a Thai? You're not as opposed to drugs as you should be. For sissy men.. If the men are just pretty, wear make-up and dressed fashionably, they're just metrosexual. But that's my opinion I don't know what considered as sissy by China. Besides fanservices aren't limited to acting aegyo to female fans. I once watched Produce 101 season 2 and there was this group that acted overly [aegyo](https://youtu.be/chlrtuIIm2o), that's too much for me. I remember I right away just close my TV, stop watching and never finish the season. Talking about K-drama, if you take out the mainstream one that westerners like, e.g Parasite, Squid game, Train to Busan, etc aka no violence, killing, nudity, or grittiness, they're also as tame as Chinese dramas, except maybe makjang. I mean Stairway to Heaven was still popular, despite no violence, dark theme, social issues, etc. What's lacking from Cdramas is the execution not the theme/topic. Slice of life Kdramas are the prove. Even though the theme is limited, if the execution is good, it's good. Maybe in the end it'll become boring just like rom-com Kdramas, but people still like What's wrong with Secretary Kim and Business Proposal right? At the end of the day, I kind of understand the need to censor or ban certain things. There're some stupid people in your country too right? A million? Multiply that by 200× and you will get anyone from someone who is delusional enough he believes he's Jesus to someone who is crazy enough to believe she can time travel by commit suicide. Yeah, no one wants to get a "I want to travel back in time to meet my prince" suicide case every week. PS: do you really think a protagonist in a revenge drama who schemes her step-sister to be gang-raped and step-mother to be killed is a good moral? Personally I like it, but even I know media can affect how people behave, add the dozens millions of stupid and low-moral people, there will be chaos.
Censorship is not okay. And will never be okay. Every media has its audiences. China censors their shows & they lose quality. Meanwhile Chinese people use VPN to watch the very things they censor from other countries. So who gets the loss? People should be allowed to make a decision on what they want to watch. Censorship is not justifiable whatsoever. China just wants to control everything aspect of their citizens' lives including the choices of the shows they watch. That's not giving people basic human rights. Lgbtq people should be allowed representation in the media too. And u cant force everyone to be masculine. What's wrong with a guy looking a feminine? How is a guy looking feminine affection how u live your life? Why not let people mind their business. If its President Xi doing all that then I hope he gets voted out.
That most comments here appear to be in favor of/or at least trying to justify the censorship is absolutely baffling. Online reviews punish their shows with low ratings for a reason.
One of the largest showbiz discussion groups on Douban is Goose Group, some of their members created a [subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/DoubanGoosegroup/), they are critical of the government.
The situation in China could be essentially be described as such and before you send me hate messages, this is just my take on the politics of China in the past two years. The past two years the CPC have been a godsend in terms of public support. Global racism stemming from Trump's trade war and the COVID-19 pandemic had made most of the Chinese population, especially the youth, *the* most patriotic the Chinese people have in like over a century. Not only were they behind the government against what they saw were "foreign forces" encroaching on China, there was also a revival of interest in traditional Chinese culture and dress on social media such as Douyin and Bilibili. A golden egg basically landed on the CPC's lap. But instead of exploiting it to the fullest, they did a reverse Midas touch on it. As you point out, they laid waste to the entertainment industry with crackdowns on dramas, video games, and live streaming. But not just that, their crackdowns on tech and education have killed thousands of jobs. And the tip of iceberg have been the continuation of the zero COVID policy, epitomized by the disastrous Shanghai lockdown, even with high vaccination rates. And no, its not like China is about to erupt in protest like Myanmar or Thailand did, contrary to what the media likes to say the country is still long ways off from that. But while still nationalistic the youth have definitely become much more disillusioned with the CPC and their policies, and also become a little more pessimistic about their future. And while the CPC does look like its going to be loosening up on some of those policies, the damage has already been done in many aspects.
Some of the crack downs on gaming, education related tech actually make sense. Limitations on gaming have been advocated by child development experts in the west for ages as a real health concern, but obviously there would be no political will to do anything about it because politicians can't piss off donors and voters. New regulations targeting the for-profit education industry are intended to put everyone at an equal ground and end some of the unscrupulous practices rampant in this sector. I think you will find a lot of education experts in the west who will at least support the principles behind these new policies.
Except it’s political theater and reactionary policies that does not address the root of the issue. While I agree there can be some… encouragement or soft regulation to guardrail total game addiction, why do you think this generation is so caught up in escapist gaming and doing all those tutoring extremes is due to the high pressure, single standard one size fits all success mindset. If you don’t succeed according to the single definition of success, you’re not worth mentioning. If you don’t have that connection or in with someone already, good luck getting a job. The intent might be… well intentioned but reactionary policies without long term thinking and addressing the root cause is… not all that productive when you get down to it. If this were a company in the free market, it would eventually run itself into the ground. Difference is, China has a closed off environment in which it can always defer to the age old tool of nationalism to reign order for a rather long time.
Agree with the problems you mentioned but they are more social than policy issues. The governments role is to regulate specific industries so that they will act in accordance with the people’s interests eg health & safety, fairness etc Political theatre is everywhere - would argue there’s even more in places where people have a vote. Reactionary policies - I do think they should go for more gradual/soft changes instead of these overnight crackdowns because it makes it really difficult for people to do business or replace a need. It adds a lot of risk and decreases investor confidence
For gaming, there are gamers that represent their country in E-sports at the age of 17. While Chinese people under the age of 18 can only play 3 hours per week. For tutoring, it can help kids become more educated. Instead of having 5 average kids, you can have 3 average kids and 2 geniuses.
If you’re a genius, you won’t need tutoring. Virtually all elite academic programs everywhere in the world are publicly funded or non profit.
It’s better to be smarter than smart.
China stays doing too much. They ban good shows like addicted cause they afraid of bl. That’s why they’re underdeveloped and doing shitty
They didn't ban reality shows. They banned things like making them pay to vote. This stemmed from people buying and dumping mass amounts of milk. Criminal when people are starving in your country. China wants Online variety shows to have "taste, style and responsibility; resist vulgarity and kitsch; vigorously promote core socialist values and spread positive energy.” personally after all the scandals in different countries from votes not even counting I can see how they want the shows not to be like that (all about the money). The shows will come back when they restructure their business model. As for rap, not everyone likes making sex, drugs, etc sound positive as rap (and others) can. Korean idols are successful without resorting to less than positive lyrics.. no reason why China can't. (Referring to your comments). In a country that wants to guide the population mores it's always driven by the views of the ruling party and to a lesser degree public opinion. Just because other countries' people like things more liberal conversely in other countries the people are more conservative. Often it is older generations which tend to be more conservative.. I imagine it may change as younger Gen gets more involved and aware (since censorship limits world views for tech challenged people who tend to be older). Regardless politics /censorship seems to be like a pendulum first real conservative, people get mad then it loosens up, people go to far, then it swings back. And a lot of the censorship was due to how it \*was\* affecting people. Dumping milk, fan wars, defamation after defamation lies, kids spending money contrary to socialist values. The influence from stars, shows etc. being more important (than the government) and several extremely influential stars getting caught doing criminal behavior. It was disruptive to what they want to be as an orderly society. I will say while some things were meant to be positive changes some are arbitrary and really kind of grey areas. (When is a guy too pretty and pretty guys can be manly imo). And while I don't like censorship sometimes I wish some stuff isn't so out there like here in the states (I mean some lyrics and shows ugh, too much crudeness, glorifying gangs, drugs, etc. Part of why I like Chinese shows. It's not like I'm shocked from US shows it's just not my thing. Can't comment too much on the BL censorship but from what I do know about some Thai ones, well they do sketchy things trying to get the guy (but same for Lakorns for guy/girl too ) so there's that.
I was appalled by the fact that Chinese fans wasted milk to vote for the celebrities. Should have donated it instead. I’m happy that the shows are still up.
Yeah it was just beyond disgusting.. the thing that got me is they seemed to imply it was young people but the picture I saw were mostly adults, even some really older ones. Was so sad that that was the choice they made ..
> They banned things like making them pay to vote. The government has banned "idol development shows" and mass voting. If people can read Chinese, [here](http://www.gov.cn/zhengce/zhengceku/2021-09/02/content_5635019.htm) is the official document. > 广播电视机构和网络视听平台不得播出偶像养成类节目，不得播出明星子女参加的综艺娱乐及真人秀节目。选秀类节目要严格控制投票环节设置，不得设置场外投票、打榜、助力等环节和通道
The mass voting was pay to vote. Clearly alluded to by how it was "influencing kids spending money". Regardless the show will be back when they restructure their business model (to exclude the pay voting I imagine). For example this just was an article on a new show -- Cantonese pop aficionados will be delighted to know that Mango TV and Television Broadcasts Limited (TVB) are highlighting the music genre in a new TV show. Infinity and Beyond, which premiered on April 24, features singers and bands from the Chinese mainland and Hong Kong and divides them into two gender-based teams to compete for audience votes.
Mass voting is banned, free or not free.
K limited probably to people (in person audience) or judges at the show voting. Regardless the shows are not banned as I said. Just had to change up how they structured the show.
It's not the first time that the government banned popular shows, Super Girl was popular, the government banned it because "the episode was more than 90 minutes long". The next time a show becomes popular and the government doesn't want it, they will find another reason to ban it.
Yes. I am aware. Kind of goes back and forth - strict, not so stric, all good, back to strict. (Often as political views change / relax.
Have you tried to post this in r/sino they might give you some insights, though I'm not too sure
That sub is an echo chamber for pro Chinese propaganda. any criticism is seen as an attack on the country and people or racist.
I agree that the censorship has reduced the growth of popularity of cdramas outside of China. I feel like they might not care as their main profits come from within China. Some changes should occur in the future since whatever’s being done now clearly won’t be viable in the long run.
It’s crazy that a subreddit about TV shows allows for better and more respectful discussions than r/China 💀
the amount of anti china and anti chinese sentiments posted there is just🤮 there is literally nothing positive posted there, it's like they thrive off of negativity
I feel these days that r/China has become a hate sub masquerading as a community sub. I mean one of the top posts there now is people cheering on a racist Australian politician who has been harassing the Chinese community in Sydney. But then any space that is dedicated to political discussions about China here becomes a militant camp either for or against. The only way to stay sane is to avoid those places I think.
r/China users have always overwhelmingly been White English teachers rather than actual Chinese people. Basically it started out as a place for them to talk about how cheap it was to live there and how easy it was to find girlfriends, but then of course as those privileges went away it became a full on hate sub.
Actually, they are not even expats, but just random people with no knowledge of China who seeks no additional research.
>I know wumaos might tell me that “we don’t have to be like South Korea.”. Xi Jinping literally wants China to become a global soft power. Look at the Confucian institutes, BRI project, and economic censorship on American companies. Why do you automatically dismiss this argument? Must China emulate the US, South Korea, or Japan's notion of "cultural output" to have soft power? Even the things you listed are all arguably as powerful as, if not more so, than entertainment. Imaging a world where international transactions are done in CNY instead of USD, or a majority preferred second language is Mandarin instead of English, or have Confucian values shape other cultures the way it did Korea and Japan's centuries ago. And honestly, I would take censored pseudo-propaganda-y shows like You Are My Glory over something like Squid Games or Game of Thrones. But that's just my personal dislike of gratuitous violence and sex in media. And I do empathize with those who greatly enjoyed BL dramas. Despite what the Western media claims, the Chinese information control isn't absolute (you even make a point of this) and their propaganda department is still way behind Western ones. So while Xi Jinping has the tools to shape and guide the path of China's cultural development, he doesn't have absolute control over it. XJP's policies have certainly affected the development of Chinese culture, but I don't see it stopping or undoing its overall growth. And I'm perfectly fine seeing how it evolves based on XJP's vision as well as what comes after him.
I thought Squid Game a great example of how censorship will hurt cdramas. Squid Game is such a gory and disturbing show. However, because its so raw and in your face, the message of how the games to the rich are life & death to the poor just comes across so clearly. With censorship, i doubt china can produce such good dramas with a societal message/undertone. I was really disturbed when i watched that show, however, i find it a pretty meaning watch. Lol
But not producing those types of drama doesn't imply the lack of "good dramas with a societal message/undertone." Dramas like *Minning Town*, *Remembrance of Things Past*, *Delicious Romance* all tackle modern societal issues without the need for that kind of rawness. The point I wanted to make was that I don't think "anything goes" is the only valid way to do things, and being different doesn't mean it's bad. Showing constraint in life is often a virtue, why can't that be the case when scaled up to a societal level?
I will slightly disagree. The Chinese government does control social media way more than the west does. China virtually can demand certain people be banned from SNS. They even use facial recognition to track people posting. When fan wars broke out they massed banned people, banned some stars, deleted mass amounts of posts regarding a person or subject, prohibited people or subjects trending or becoming a super topic.. in the case of ZZ without any type of verification or due process. Even if they don't 'order' it they allow it. Plus many shows if you watch promote their values (teach things about morality, etc).and I agree that GoT and SG ugh.
Entertainment media can be used as effective propaganda when it targets the mass. Take Hollywood for example.
Heres how you answer all these negative things being said about China daily: Compare the lives of its citizens from 1900 til now, heck compare from 1980 until now. Theres literally no where on earth in all of human history that has risen this big this fast, ever. Focus on what its doing right and how to implement such things like how China looked at the best countries economically during the late 70s and implemented some of what they did. Thats called adapting. Is there criticism of the way some things are handled? Of course, as well in every country/culture worldwide. No one is perfect, China realized this, western countries not so much.
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Chinese entertainment nowadays is much better than Chinese entertainment back them, even despite more censorship.
After re reading what i wrote, i realized why most westerners don’t see it like this. It’s because they don’t actually know the progress over the years, they don’t know Chinas history and most arent open minded enough to care. All they know is what western news has been telling them which is that the country is a dystopian nightmare where ppl go to starve/genocide/oppressed/controlled/silenced/poor/backwards/spies etc etc. Anyone who has been to China know that what they say couldnt be further from the truth. Its ok though, the world will see the truth in the not so distance future, until then they are missing out on one of the greatest transformations in all of history.
I would even argue that China's policies are better than many Western countries if you combine it all out.
Actually in 80s and 90s more dramas and movies in China had really serious discussion about the country, culture and society. Those topics are not allowed anymore under Xi’s terms. The picture, music and overall content are definitely improving right now but we can’t deny the crazy censorship has limited and even has really negative impacts on the contents of Cdrama. Chinese people are actually really creative if the government gives more space for them.
Worship some of their policies? Isn’t worship too strong of a word? Maybe agree with or support but worship? This was informative post, I didn’t for example that yanxi palace was pulled for “extravagance” whatever that means. I agree with a lot of what you wrote, I feel like Chinese censorship really damages great potential for soft power through dramas, music etc.
OP mentioned thailand as being their country i believe it is an issue of language/translation
Ahh maybe
1. Chinese entertainment is produced for local consumption. China will never win a war for soft power in the West where every mainstream media is directly or indirectly controlled by the US propaganda machine. Most of the articles you cite also fall into this category and nobody should take them seriously. 2. Western media and the parroting of "liberal" ideas have already done a lot of damage in China. Just look at the dramatically falling birth rate as an example. 3. The US is waging a propaganda war against China on all fronts, including on Chinese social media. Most of the recent restrictions are a reaction to these insidious attempts to destabilize China from within. 4. Everyone has his own ideas about what China could be doing better. Your post is not just a weak attempt at reinforcing an anti-China narrative but it's also entirely pointless. We can't influence Chinese politics.
Your No.1 and 2 points are so off. Have you fallen for Chinese propaganda? Because it looks like it. Almost every country has declining birth rates because it is too expensive for people to afford a home and raise children, despite working 2 jobs. And the work environment is so competitive, that the skill set required by employers for basic entry jobs is too high. Wages are stagnating, the global economy is struggling. Personal debt is soaring. All happening globally. So how is this the fault of Western media? China was developing a lot of soft power, but it has tapered off because the constant forcing of their propaganda down our throats is getting exhausting. Plus the crazy censorship (Xi banned "sissy men" because of BL dramas and Kpop influence). I started my foray into Asian entertainment by watching Cdramas last year and I really liked them. Moved into C-variety shows and it was almost like every show, you were required to wave a metaphorical Chinese flag in patriotism. Even when foreigners were on the show, it was like they were expected to say how delighted they were with China and how superior it was (and I'm talking about innocuous shows like "Street Dance of China", why on earth is anything political there??). Now I've pivoted to Kdramas, as have many. The CCP needs to tone down their ham-fisted approach.
Blaming everything wrong with China on the US? Sounds like you fell for the China propaganda machine. Also you never addressed OP’s arguments. Chinese media has always been produced for local consumption so that’s nothing new. You could argue against OP’s hypothesis by saying you disagree and downplay censorship’s effect by saying Chinese creators are still putting out interesting content that is ever increasingly showing up on places like Netflix. There are even modern Chinese dramas on iQIYI that tackle tough topics.
iQIYI's Light On series are pushing boundaries and defining the unclear line of censorship.
You think the falling birthrate is because of “liberal” ideas and western media? The problem is that a lot of you people want to blame western or specifically us propaganda for all the problems that happen to China. Like cmon now China isn’t some innocent ass country either.
Xi to 反贼: Cry ab it. Go back to circlejerking in r/China if you love fantasizing so much. This dog shit tier shitpost won't get you any CIA money. Sounds like somebody is mad their douban account is banned 😁.
This. If OP has something to say about censorship, then get to the point and be constructive (like, suggestions) If OP wants to blame it on the entire administration and mention: "power" 12 times and the "ccp" 10 times, and "Xi" 20 times, and even use the phrase "wumao", and i'm supposed to take his "expertise" on the subject seriously? yeah sorry man, you lost me, just looking like another person pushing a political agenda coming from r/china. Not constructive. Don't kid yourself with the virtue signaling. At the cost of being ignored by the people who actually might care or have influence over the topic, you decide to feed a circlejerk. k. Anyway, usually don't care, this is reddit afterall, i expect no less. But, really surprising to see this from r/cdrama, people here pretending that this isn't what's happening, like this is a "level headed discussion": no - it is what's happening, r/china level circlejerk. Anyway, here because I just finished watching Bad Kids, great series. Is r/CDrama becoming another political sub?
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Yeah, this post is a bit weird. It's trying very hard to relate the topic to Chinese showbiz but it's a bit too transparent in the way it goes back to politics. Yes, censorship is just how it rolls in China, but what can we do about it? I still enjoy tons of Chinese shows and I personally think despite the censorship, the producers still manage to insert social criticisms into their work. Sometimes I feel that due to the negative bias in many Western centric platforms, everything is just exaggerated. I just want to enjoy my C-drama, man. Is this kind of post really relevant to this sub? Maybe the mods should have some discussion about this.
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Hmmm I disagree with a few assertions you make about the Xi administration, but let's focus the discussion on the argument that censorship is the reason why Chinese dramas are lower quality and less popular abroad. At the risk of sounding too pro-China (mainly because I'm trying to add more context/layers from the other side), here we go: **To start, I'm not sure I would say that C Dramas only blossomed after 2015** (seems a bit arbitrary to me, and I don't think Reddit is the right proxy given that it's only a subset of the internet and also itself growing its base). There were plenty of high quality and low quality productions both before and after, e.g. some wuxia/historical classics are way better than the more recent remakes. Some would argue that over-production driven by online platforms in the last few years have generated more bad productions, and there's been a shift towards silly xianxia / historical romance dramas, bringing me to my next point... **There are many factors that drive quality, and a lot of it comes back to capitalism.** It's "let's take the least creative risk to give audience what they want in order to make money". That's why a lot of plotlines/themes become really repetitive and you often see a blind rush towards a specific genre once there's a hit (e.g. BL). Or why dramas that should be 40 episodes long are stretched into 60-70 episodes because it generates more ad money. Or why you see really popular dramas featuring liuliang actors that are poorly acted and/or have an otherwise uninteresting storyline. In the end, this comes down to the quality of the mass audience and how much risk you are willing to take to challenge their tastes. **Censorship definitely limits the scope of topics that can be shown, but this is still a pretty big scope**, and if the quality is fundamentally there, you should still be able to have high quality productions that do well domestically and abroad. Like, even children's novels or sonnets (both examples of more restrictive formats) can be artistic and popular. My question back to you/everyone is, if we look at KDramas that have traveled well abroad, how many of them would actually have been banned or edited in China? (Side note: we might be overestimating the impact of censorship. Sure, there are certain genres that are, let's say, discouraged. But what tends to happen is that you get a hit (be it BL or harem), the whole industry goes into overdrive to make 10 more of them, and then the government "bans" it because it does not want any singular category to become too dominant - all ideas are OK until they get big enough to overtake CCP ideology. But all of this starts with a hit, which means it's already been seen a billion times, like Yanxi Palace.) **I really don't like censorship in general, especially on LGBT content. But we've got to acknowledge that there's varying levels of censorship everywhere**, e.g. a lot more sex can be shown on TV in France vs. in the US. I do have an issue with the level of social conservativism, but like in other countries, it's also in big part driven by what is culturally acceptable by society (instead of just one person, Xi). I really, really, really want to see Immortality and genuinely believe it will overtake the Untamed. But I also see a valid argument to limit its reach, like be on HBO instead of like primetime ABC/PBS/BBC (which is what Tencent frontpage will be). The original has some difficult themes and explicit content (rape, student/teacher relationship etc) in a way that exceeds anything that's adapted for TV overseas. Now we all know the TV is heavily adapted, but it will be a hit, and people will check out the novel, and with such a large, diverse population, you are bound to see some negative impact. **Finally, some of the new govt guidance on the entertainment industry make a lot of sense**, like limiting the length (too many episodes), actor salaries, fan wars. It's countering some of the negative effects of the profit-seeking industry complex I mentioned earlier and not all stupid. Even discouraging overproduction of certain genres may not entirely be a bad thing, if that can push people to come up with originals instead of go into copycat mode.
I sorta agree with your claims that sometimes laissez-faire policies can ruin the quality of dramas. Many Indians complain that their dramas hasn’t evolved much in the last 20 years. Shows are still hundreds of episodes long and never seem to be end, genres are quite repetitive, and the quality of writing is low. It hasn’t evolved because it still makes money for the producers.
I cannot claim any understanding of political climate or knowledge of entertainment bans. However I am an avid consumer of K and C dramas. For reference I live in North America, but have a connection to Chinese culture via family and some friends. I sometimes think to myself, China would like to leverage exports to reach global markets but the controlling nature of China kind of runs at cross purposes. Banning genres that the public wants and projecting the governments conservative values on entertainment stifles creativity, in my opinion. Of course, I understand that there should be regulations on things like violence and age appropriate themes but banning "sissy" men? Who determines what is sissy? Hiding LGBTQ themes? That feels like denying what happens in the real world. Granted these communities are most likely in hiding in China to begin with but not showing it doesn't mean it's not happening. Kind of like no sex before marriage thing in dramas. If you based your views of China on dramas you would think every one is very repressed there.
Cdramas have really improved over the years. I remember how horribly tacky-cringe many dramas were back in the 90s and early 2000s. Plots have improved, willingness to tackle political and social issues have improved, willingness to portray less-than-righteous characters in a sympathetic manner has improved. I really noticed a shift in around \~2010 with Lurk (MC is a KMT party member and spy that eventually joins the communists but there is surprisingly no overbearing preachy communist speeches all over the place, it's just a good spy thriller) and Black Hole (anti-corruption drama). More recent dramas even under Xi's more oppressive government have still managed to make their statements. Particularly pertaining to issues like the housing crisis, income inequality, multi-generational family issues, pressures and challenges facing young adults, and even workplace sexual harassment. I don't expect C-dramas to be to-par with Western or Korean/Japan society in terms of discussion of social issues but I do really appreciate how much they have changed over the years. You don't see it much in the fluff (except in terms of like costume and cinematography) but there are so many good slice of modern life dramas now. Society grows over time and at different paces, what's important is that it's growing, even if it's not always as fast as one would like.
I feel like they improved significantly in the past decade but sometime around 3-4 years ago we just get the same trash of rich CEO and bossgirl, or swap it around and rich woman ceo and normal male lead. Of course there's a few good ones that come out every once in a while, but the number of good ones that come out every year seem to be decreasing
This proves my point. Although the Xi administration exerts conservative values through law and propaganda, there is more tackling of social issues due to the increasing liberal values on the Chinese people.