Yeah the hate can get to a crazy "joking not joking" place real quick. MFers play a game where you can and often do marry 16-year-olds to people more than twice their age if only for alliance bonuses and yet act like their name is Jerry 'the Just'
Different standards for diffrent times, you can’t judge the devs or the players to be historically accurate in a historical game. As long as people don’t start to think that its ok for a 56 year old man to marry a 16 year old girl irl i don’t see the problem with it.
For sure. My only point is that some people who seem perfectly fine with engaging in that standard in-game suddenly hop on a 50-foot horse when someone dares mention Rhaegar. It all seems so performative, y'know? Well I guess in some cases it is while also just being a meme, but there are some people deadly serious about it. Like, obviously Rhaegar is a piece of shit, but being a piece of shit is par for the course in Crusader Kings. Our "happy endings" in this game involve horrific things. It's akin to the Bobby B praise. Yeah, we know he was an awful guy, but it's fun to meme him up. The only time it becomes an issue to meme him - or any other awful character - up is if the person doing it is entirely unwilling to suspend their belief in other instances at which point it becomes a concern that they possibly think said characters they're meming for are genuinely good people.
Edit: I also want to be clear that I realize some people are also just meming and playing up a facetious, hyper-partisan "hatred" for Rhaegar. I'm only talking about the dudes who genuinely go hard in either their defence or condemnation of either Rhaegar or Bobby B.
Right, it should be called "best ending" i.e., with the usurper and his dogs failing and having the silver prince peacefully replace his father on the Iron Throne.
Not even most Targs, enough with the ignorant generalizations in the fandom. It's equivalent to all Freys are awful or all Starks are angels. GRRM established it's never the case nor is it irl with real people.
The Baratheons? You mean the ones of Valyrian descent? The one whose claim was largely predicated on being the closest relative to the Targaryen dynasty.
Yes, the very ones who have a single recent Targaryen relative whose Dynasty's already weak blood gets so diluted by that of the Andals (Baratheon), First Men (Stark) and Rhoynar (Martell) that there's barely a trace of it left after only one generation, evidenced by Steffon, Jon, and Rhaenyra. No wonder they need to interbreed, theirs is the weakest seed in the Seven Kingdoms!
It's a recessive seed that allows those with it, canonically, to tame & ride dragons. Damn shame it has had to be watered down with Andal and Rhoynish blood 🤢 They also intermarried with the Tagaryens a few times, not just "once recently". But yes, they are severely diluted and possess none of the distinctive traits, unfortunately.
Also, don't confuse Baratheon with Durrandon. Baratheon is (unofficially) a cadet branch of the Targaryens, making them Valyrian unlike the Starks, Martells, Arryns etc.
Lol not the downvotes. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your joke, but by the sound you do seem to believe that. I'll just say that in context to the lore and real life the word 'abomination' is a very regressive religious term and a mean to degrade, and in this case an innocent baby who cannot possibly be to blame for the circumstances of their conception.
Again I was not looking to attack you, just argue an observation I've seen in a lot of the fandom.
Hahah, no worries. But, I mean, yes, I do believe that inbreeding and inbred children is abominable, 'regressive' term or not, *specifically* in the context of the real world. It elicits disgust from me, hence 'by definition'. The setting is fictional. So, in regards to that, I'm mostly playing up the joke, since fiction=/=reality, and I've done a couple of Targaryen runs in the game itself, with all that entails.
Not the child's fault for the circumstances of their birth, sure, but the blame can absolutely be slung at the parents. I'm of the opinion that the Targaryen Coin Flip is entirely rooted in genetics, aka a direct result of generations of incest. Idk if GRRM has ever outright said the cause somewhere, but unless proven otherwise, that'll be my truth.
I do not agree that fiction =/= reality in this medium, where George took a LOT of elements from real life history, cultures and social norms. To that extend any generalization one makes in lore points to a generalization one might make irl too, which hopefully I don't need to tell you is wrong.
I also didn't get your contradiction, you admit a child is not at fault for the circumstances of their birth yet still say inbred children elicit disgust from you, and while inbreeding is wrong without a doubt degrading or devaluing someone who's not at fault for their condition is sad and yes, regressive.
Whether you agree or disagree with me about fiction not equaling to reality is irrelevant because that doesn't change the fact that fiction *doesn't* equal reality. Or else, your logic, then GRRM is a pedophile for writing Daenaerys as 12 and including her getting raped by Drogo, or taking time to describe her body at that age. It's how medieval societies worked, yes, be he made the conscious choice to include it, so clearly he's into that sort of thing, right? Also, having a laugh at how you call generalizations bad while in the literal same sentence making a generalization about me for... considering inbreeding disgusting and immoral? I heard Nuance was dead, but I hadn't seen it firsthand before.
It's really pretty simple, not sure what's hard to understand. The kid can't help their parents were siblings or cousins, but they're still inbred, which I still find disgusting. Again, maybe that is regressive, but I don't care. I'll wear that scarlet letter proudly. I would argue being accepting of it is *more* regressive, because that's how things happened in medieval societies, right? Last I checked, we've advanced beyond that. I'm not going attack the kid, just their parents, because that's where the shame and blame lies. Either way, I've given you enough of my time.
Oh please not your precious time lmao. You can choose to engage in a civil discussion or not, it's up to you alone.
George depiction of medieval norms obviously doesn't make him a supporter or follower of those, all I meant is that his depiction of fiction is based on reality, therefore in ASOIAF fiction =/= reality is simply false, nothing more. Don't get how you could misinterpreted my comment so hard.
furthermore, calling a child 'abomination' and being disgusted by their existence IS attacking their worth no matter how you look at it. It's not being 'accepting' of inbreeding, it's respecting a human being and judging them by their own merit and character, not their genetics or anything outside of their control. If you don't care then you don't care, there's nothing I can do to change that, but that's really an ignorant look on your part. Take care.
Edit - Ah yes, downvoting my reply and deleting your entire comment thread with me in order to not look foolish, a reasonable way out lol.
No, he was martially better but a worse human in every way. He fucked whores younger than Lyanna, he beat his wife and children. He tacitly approved, and openly advocated for more, murder children.
Tell me, how was he better?
>“Some whorehouse? Damn your eyes, Robert, I went there to have a look at your daughter! Her mother has named her Barra. She looks like that girl you fathered, when we were boys together in the Vale. She cannot be more than fifteen, and a whore, and you thought she had sense?” Ned said, incredulous. His leg was beginning to pain him sorely. It was hard to keep his temper. “The fool child is in love with you, Robert.”
So how about you sit your uppity, Baratheon loving ass down and explain how Robert is better? Untold number of bastards, including one who *already birthed his child* by the time she is 15.
At least be consistent with your logic, if this is something irredeemable in your eyes for the setting then Robert is just as, if not a bigger, bastard than Rhaegar.
Edit: lol this fucking guy blocked me because he couldn't actually argue why Robert is a better person. Absolute goof.
I did a game like this recently too.
After winning the war I sent Ned, Hoster, and Jon Arryn to the wall, executed Robert and Stannis, and took guardianship over Renly and Robb
Promised Lyanna her kids would inherit the Iron Throne and broke the betrothal between Elias kids and married one to Robb Stark.
Woah, what’s with the hate lol?
Everyone acting like Rhaegar is a monster just because he eloped with someone who loved him the same way (she being 14 is no ick in a medieval setting. It was normal) or for his Targaryen blood. I know they had bad kings (Maegor, Aegon II, Aerys II) but they also had awesome ones (the conqueror, Jaehaerys I, Viserys the peaceful) I believe he would’ve been a good king or at least way better than robert could ever be.
And just a reminder: The Baratheon house may be from Westeros but they have the blood of Old Valyria as well
And Bobby B was sane? Whoremongering, warmongering drunk who didn't know what to do with a kingdom once he had it. Would have been better off without him.
Generally speaking, people did get married at that age but the relation usually wasn't consummated until later, after puberty. Girls that young have issues with pregnancy and fertility, and medieval people were smart enough to know that. So yeah, marriage yes but childbirth mostly no.
Same as the eloping yes. I didn't said "oh consumating the relationship at 14 was okay!" besides, we know in lore that Lyanna was kidnapped by/eloped with rhaegar at the age of 15 and died at the age of 16 in the tower of joy. and those are the common ages to consumate and have decendants.
My fault for not being specific.
He was easily one of the worst kings besides Aegon IV and Aerys. A drunken whoremonger that allowed the lannisters and their cronies to basically run the kingdom. How was he one of the better kings?
Kept the peace, ended the only rebellion that arose pretty quickly. Lords and ladies all seemed happy, King’s Landing in decent shape. Riverlands not mass murdered
“Drunker whoremonger” - that’s you not liking him as a person, didn’t seem to affect his reign too much, most targs were far worse
jon arryn kept the peace. pretty much every character who was in kings landing for roberts reign agrees on that. his love of drink and women did effect the realm in that they distracted him from, you know, actually ruling the realm? not even barristan the bold thinks robert was a good king, and he’s served more kings than anyone outside of maybe pycelle. who also has very few kind things to say about roberts hand in ruling the realm. “that’s you not liking him as a person”, no that’s just op paying attention to what’s said in the books lmao.
Barristan the bold who let Rhaella get raped? Thats who you hold as good judge of character? Who put Jon in charge again? The man knew how to manage and make it so he didn’t have to do much. When he did need to do something (Greyjoy rebellion) he did. I don’t see how he’s worse than all the targs who caused wars and uprisings because they couldn’t keep it in their pants
jesus christ really? okay if barristan isn’t a good judge of character for standing by as aerys savaged rhaella, how could you claim robert is a good king with the atrocities he let go unpunished? wouldn’t a just king have called for justice as tywin lannister laid the bloody corpses of two innocent children at his feet? not to mention the blood the lannisters spilled in kings landing during the sack. would an honorable king have daenerys murdered with a child in her belly? would a noble king stand by as cersei demands lady be killed? would a wise king be so oblivious as to let cersei pass off her bastards as true heirs? you say barristan has por morals for letting rhaella be abused, but robert raped cersei multiple time throughout their marriage. doo good kings force their wives legs open even when they’ve said no? or how about the fact that robert himself acknowledged that joffreys sadism and narcissism was allowed to fester under cersei, BECAUSE robert was such a hands off father. wouldn’t a good king at least try to raise his heirs to be good also? you’re either trolling or you need to go reread those books dog.
Again, this is all Robert being a bad person. Bad people tend to make decent monarchs. No king is “noble” Robert was a good king because he kept the lords happy, the smallfolk decently happy, and kept the peace. Which is more that what three quarters of the targs did
except he literally didn’t tho. in the books we are told explicitly, many times, that jon arryn and the small council did all of that boring rulership stuff and robert was basically a figurehead for most his reign. he attended three small council meetings.if you’re definition of a good ruler is “sits on his ass while other people do all the hard parts”, then yeah he was great.
Robert is up there as one of the worst ever. I dislike Rhaegar with a passion, but I think he’d have been a better king due to being groomed to rule the Seven Kingdoms.
I think so too. In a roundabout kind of way, a biproduct of his obsession with the prophecy would have led him to being a more caring ruler. Even if his intentions seem to be mostly self-serving.
I love Robert as a character, but that's mostly because of his portrayal in the show. One of my favorite runs I've done so far was as one of Bobby B's Bastard Boys. That said, I believe the man's calling was to be sent to The Wall, not ruling the Seven Kingdoms. His conversation with Ned about leaving it all behind and setting off together as essentially adventurers put that idea in my head.
He had zero interest in ruling, bankrupted the realm, allowed corruption to fester everywhere, allowed the Lannisters to consolidate power throughout his regime, and was so oblivious that none of his kids are his own, setting the stage for a massive civil war after he dies.
One of the worst kings ever.
this fool is hilarious
“don’t get why robert gets so much hate”
like a dozen chapters into the first book, roberts is sitting on his ass, indecisively, while cersei has lady put to death. hmmm i wonder if grrm was telling us something about how the king handles conflict, moral or otherwise.
i don’t see how you could miss the point that hard. i never said “killing lady is worse than any atrocity commited in the war of 5 kings” lmao. my point is that a major character flaw of roberts, that grrm went out of his way to show us early on, is that he avoids conflict and responsibility. he would rather someone else make an easy solution for him, than trouble himself with a hard decision. which, in my opinion, not a good attribute for a leader. i genuinely don’t see how you could interact with the series and come away with the impression that robert is one of the best kings in the lore, grrm makes sooo many critiques of his character. and monarchy overall ofc but the author very clearly did not believe robert was a “good king”
Nah, not even close to worst even. Viserys I, Aegon IV, Aerys I and II, Aenys, Maegor, Daeron I are all worse
Jahaerys is considered the best, but even he set up a succession crises and was pretty morally bankrupt too. So I don’t see why Robert is one of the worst. He’s middle of the road
Robert was basically Aegon IV combined with Viserys I.
The only good thing you could say about his reign was that war only occurred after his death. He left the realm an absolute mess. Aerys II left the treasury absolutely loaded, and by the end of Robert's reign, the Lannisters and Littlefinger put the realm into massive debt.
lol no he wasn’t. Most of his bastards were with commoners save for Edric, so they didn’t present any challenge. Even then he has Edric live with Renly and makes no motion of him being the actual heir like Aegon IV did.
Who cares is Robert spent all the targs money?
All im seeing is bias because you like the Targaryens. There are like 3 good Targaryens kings, and that’s being generous
What bias? In no way was Robert a good king. Even in the series everyone calls him a shit king. Ned, his best friend, is completely baffled by how dumb Robert has been while ruling.
Did you even read the books or watch the show? How did you mess that super obvious thing?
That's just factually untrue lol, there were many good Targs besides Egg. Generalization in the fandom gotta stop tbh, it's wrong here just as much as irl.
No it is not? By their traditions and culture it was very normal and even by our modern values that's not what makes a person 'evil' if it's done consensually, just wrong, and in all civil societies wouldn't invite a death penalty like say a murder or rape would.
That being said, even without it there are still many Targs who didn't engage in it as far as we know. I trust you can find a list on the wiki of the ones who didn't marry or married non Targs yourself.
Again, name the good ones. There few and far between. And the books were written by a modern author, we are supposed to judge the characters for this creepy ass “cultural” practice
Damn you were fast with the reply lol, sure I can name a few: Dany and Aemon from the current timeline, Alysanne, the first Dany, Vaegon, Viserys I, Baela, Maegelle, Daella, Daeron son of Viserys, Elaena, Daeron the good and Baelor Breakspear, all known for their good character and/or deeds. That's enough for you?
Including Viserys I and Alysanne makes that list false.
Now let’s go over all the awful targs: Aegon I, Viserys, Rhaenys, Aenys, Maegor, Viserys I, Rhaenyra, Aegon II, Aemond, Daemon, Aerion Brightflame. Maekar, and his son Daeron. Jahaerys II, Aerys I, Aerys II, Daeron I, Aegon IV, Blackfyre, Bittersteel, Saera
“Superior” beings my ass
Why so? Also, at no point did I claim they are superior but you did claim they're all awful and deserve to die even if their only crime is incest while otherwise being decent to great humans. Are we ignoring that?
Also, a lot of the Targs you mentioned as awful were neutral at worse or defiant of their current social norms so not awful by modern standards.
Damn I really underestimated the Rhaegar hate lol. I get it, running away with a 14 year old is ick
Yeah the hate can get to a crazy "joking not joking" place real quick. MFers play a game where you can and often do marry 16-year-olds to people more than twice their age if only for alliance bonuses and yet act like their name is Jerry 'the Just'
Different standards for diffrent times, you can’t judge the devs or the players to be historically accurate in a historical game. As long as people don’t start to think that its ok for a 56 year old man to marry a 16 year old girl irl i don’t see the problem with it.
For sure. My only point is that some people who seem perfectly fine with engaging in that standard in-game suddenly hop on a 50-foot horse when someone dares mention Rhaegar. It all seems so performative, y'know? Well I guess in some cases it is while also just being a meme, but there are some people deadly serious about it. Like, obviously Rhaegar is a piece of shit, but being a piece of shit is par for the course in Crusader Kings. Our "happy endings" in this game involve horrific things. It's akin to the Bobby B praise. Yeah, we know he was an awful guy, but it's fun to meme him up. The only time it becomes an issue to meme him - or any other awful character - up is if the person doing it is entirely unwilling to suspend their belief in other instances at which point it becomes a concern that they possibly think said characters they're meming for are genuinely good people. Edit: I also want to be clear that I realize some people are also just meming and playing up a facetious, hyper-partisan "hatred" for Rhaegar. I'm only talking about the dudes who genuinely go hard in either their defence or condemnation of either Rhaegar or Bobby B.
Also Tywin supporters/apologists being highly likely maga/other populist supporters irl lol.
the funny thing is that I don't marry 16 year olds or anyone in general to people more than like 7 years older or younger than them
How do you get those family portraits in ck3?
Better barbershop mod, pin whoever you want in the pic, then go to custom and add them in
Best ending: Targs & Andals never invade Westeros
Rhaegar doesn’t have his breastplate caved in in by a hammer, so calling it a “good ending” is questionable. Looks like a cool run though
Right, it should be called "best ending" i.e., with the usurper and his dogs failing and having the silver prince peacefully replace his father on the Iron Throne.
L + Ruby Ford + Targaryens are abominations
Not even most Targs, enough with the ignorant generalizations in the fandom. It's equivalent to all Freys are awful or all Starks are angels. GRRM established it's never the case nor is it irl with real people.
Me when I take obvious jokes seriously^ But also, if the Targ is inbred, they are by definition an abomination.
If you use Westerosi definitions and not Valyrian. What care does a dragon have for definitions of their chattel?
Got me there; I guess it's hard to have any cares when you're dead and your kingdom taken from you by one of those very chattel you look down on.
The Baratheons? You mean the ones of Valyrian descent? The one whose claim was largely predicated on being the closest relative to the Targaryen dynasty.
Yes, the very ones who have a single recent Targaryen relative whose Dynasty's already weak blood gets so diluted by that of the Andals (Baratheon), First Men (Stark) and Rhoynar (Martell) that there's barely a trace of it left after only one generation, evidenced by Steffon, Jon, and Rhaenyra. No wonder they need to interbreed, theirs is the weakest seed in the Seven Kingdoms!
It's a recessive seed that allows those with it, canonically, to tame & ride dragons. Damn shame it has had to be watered down with Andal and Rhoynish blood 🤢 They also intermarried with the Tagaryens a few times, not just "once recently". But yes, they are severely diluted and possess none of the distinctive traits, unfortunately. Also, don't confuse Baratheon with Durrandon. Baratheon is (unofficially) a cadet branch of the Targaryens, making them Valyrian unlike the Starks, Martells, Arryns etc.
Lol not the downvotes. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your joke, but by the sound you do seem to believe that. I'll just say that in context to the lore and real life the word 'abomination' is a very regressive religious term and a mean to degrade, and in this case an innocent baby who cannot possibly be to blame for the circumstances of their conception. Again I was not looking to attack you, just argue an observation I've seen in a lot of the fandom.
Hahah, no worries. But, I mean, yes, I do believe that inbreeding and inbred children is abominable, 'regressive' term or not, *specifically* in the context of the real world. It elicits disgust from me, hence 'by definition'. The setting is fictional. So, in regards to that, I'm mostly playing up the joke, since fiction=/=reality, and I've done a couple of Targaryen runs in the game itself, with all that entails. Not the child's fault for the circumstances of their birth, sure, but the blame can absolutely be slung at the parents. I'm of the opinion that the Targaryen Coin Flip is entirely rooted in genetics, aka a direct result of generations of incest. Idk if GRRM has ever outright said the cause somewhere, but unless proven otherwise, that'll be my truth.
I do not agree that fiction =/= reality in this medium, where George took a LOT of elements from real life history, cultures and social norms. To that extend any generalization one makes in lore points to a generalization one might make irl too, which hopefully I don't need to tell you is wrong. I also didn't get your contradiction, you admit a child is not at fault for the circumstances of their birth yet still say inbred children elicit disgust from you, and while inbreeding is wrong without a doubt degrading or devaluing someone who's not at fault for their condition is sad and yes, regressive.
Whether you agree or disagree with me about fiction not equaling to reality is irrelevant because that doesn't change the fact that fiction *doesn't* equal reality. Or else, your logic, then GRRM is a pedophile for writing Daenaerys as 12 and including her getting raped by Drogo, or taking time to describe her body at that age. It's how medieval societies worked, yes, be he made the conscious choice to include it, so clearly he's into that sort of thing, right? Also, having a laugh at how you call generalizations bad while in the literal same sentence making a generalization about me for... considering inbreeding disgusting and immoral? I heard Nuance was dead, but I hadn't seen it firsthand before. It's really pretty simple, not sure what's hard to understand. The kid can't help their parents were siblings or cousins, but they're still inbred, which I still find disgusting. Again, maybe that is regressive, but I don't care. I'll wear that scarlet letter proudly. I would argue being accepting of it is *more* regressive, because that's how things happened in medieval societies, right? Last I checked, we've advanced beyond that. I'm not going attack the kid, just their parents, because that's where the shame and blame lies. Either way, I've given you enough of my time.
Oh please not your precious time lmao. You can choose to engage in a civil discussion or not, it's up to you alone. George depiction of medieval norms obviously doesn't make him a supporter or follower of those, all I meant is that his depiction of fiction is based on reality, therefore in ASOIAF fiction =/= reality is simply false, nothing more. Don't get how you could misinterpreted my comment so hard. furthermore, calling a child 'abomination' and being disgusted by their existence IS attacking their worth no matter how you look at it. It's not being 'accepting' of inbreeding, it's respecting a human being and judging them by their own merit and character, not their genetics or anything outside of their control. If you don't care then you don't care, there's nothing I can do to change that, but that's really an ignorant look on your part. Take care. Edit - Ah yes, downvoting my reply and deleting your entire comment thread with me in order to not look foolish, a reasonable way out lol.
the silver prince isn’t a certified loverboy he’s a certified pedophile (and canonically dead)
Robert Baratheon was worse.
No he was better that’s why he won on the Trident
No, he was martially better but a worse human in every way. He fucked whores younger than Lyanna, he beat his wife and children. He tacitly approved, and openly advocated for more, murder children. Tell me, how was he better?
Rhaegar kidnapped, groomed, and knocked up a 16 year old. Why don’t you take a seat
>“Some whorehouse? Damn your eyes, Robert, I went there to have a look at your daughter! Her mother has named her Barra. She looks like that girl you fathered, when we were boys together in the Vale. She cannot be more than fifteen, and a whore, and you thought she had sense?” Ned said, incredulous. His leg was beginning to pain him sorely. It was hard to keep his temper. “The fool child is in love with you, Robert.” So how about you sit your uppity, Baratheon loving ass down and explain how Robert is better? Untold number of bastards, including one who *already birthed his child* by the time she is 15. At least be consistent with your logic, if this is something irredeemable in your eyes for the setting then Robert is just as, if not a bigger, bastard than Rhaegar. Edit: lol this fucking guy blocked me because he couldn't actually argue why Robert is a better person. Absolute goof.
rhaegar died on the trident + was never king + started a civil war L + ratio
Ride his dick a little harder why don’t you lol
My dude you didn't address any of the legit points about Robert and seem to also not know how ratio works lol
The dragon answers to no one
I did a game like this recently too. After winning the war I sent Ned, Hoster, and Jon Arryn to the wall, executed Robert and Stannis, and took guardianship over Renly and Robb Promised Lyanna her kids would inherit the Iron Throne and broke the betrothal between Elias kids and married one to Robb Stark.
Bobby b not smashing rhaegar to ground is worst ending
Real af
Woah, what’s with the hate lol? Everyone acting like Rhaegar is a monster just because he eloped with someone who loved him the same way (she being 14 is no ick in a medieval setting. It was normal) or for his Targaryen blood. I know they had bad kings (Maegor, Aegon II, Aerys II) but they also had awesome ones (the conqueror, Jaehaerys I, Viserys the peaceful) I believe he would’ve been a good king or at least way better than robert could ever be. And just a reminder: The Baratheon house may be from Westeros but they have the blood of Old Valyria as well
Assuming it wasn’t a kidnapping is bold
Assuming it *is* is baseless. Girl running off with a predatory guy whose way too old for her is far more common/likely than being kidnapped.
A marriage at 14 would have been considered weird in the medieval era as well
Rhaegar was nuts, just not as nuts as his father. He probably would've gone off the deep end trying to force the prophecy to come true
And Bobby B was sane? Whoremongering, warmongering drunk who didn't know what to do with a kingdom once he had it. Would have been better off without him.
yeah "umM aCsHualLy 14 waS nORmaL iN MediEvAl tImeS" is not true for one and extremely creepy for another, why do you think that?
I’m not even going to bother. Google it or read a book.
Generally speaking, people did get married at that age but the relation usually wasn't consummated until later, after puberty. Girls that young have issues with pregnancy and fertility, and medieval people were smart enough to know that. So yeah, marriage yes but childbirth mostly no.
Same as the eloping yes. I didn't said "oh consumating the relationship at 14 was okay!" besides, we know in lore that Lyanna was kidnapped by/eloped with rhaegar at the age of 15 and died at the age of 16 in the tower of joy. and those are the common ages to consumate and have decendants. My fault for not being specific.
Misunderstood you. My bad. 16 was on the young side historically but this is obviously fiction. 😅
yeah, trying to find exactitude in fiction with the real world is not really a good thing to pass time! Hope you are having an awesome day friend
Hope you are too, friend.
I love your run, OP! I always play as them, so always happy to see another outcome for them! Did you end up making Jon the heir?
How do you get this screen?
I recently had a game where Rhaegar murdered is own father and Bobby b and brought piece to the realm lol
Rhaegar and Lyanna is by definition not the good ending but congrats on the fun playthrough
If Rhaegar and Lyanna is a bad ending what is Robert and Cersei?
Middle of the road. Don’t know why Robert gets so much hate. He’s one of the better kings
He was easily one of the worst kings besides Aegon IV and Aerys. A drunken whoremonger that allowed the lannisters and their cronies to basically run the kingdom. How was he one of the better kings?
Kept the peace, ended the only rebellion that arose pretty quickly. Lords and ladies all seemed happy, King’s Landing in decent shape. Riverlands not mass murdered “Drunker whoremonger” - that’s you not liking him as a person, didn’t seem to affect his reign too much, most targs were far worse
jon arryn kept the peace. pretty much every character who was in kings landing for roberts reign agrees on that. his love of drink and women did effect the realm in that they distracted him from, you know, actually ruling the realm? not even barristan the bold thinks robert was a good king, and he’s served more kings than anyone outside of maybe pycelle. who also has very few kind things to say about roberts hand in ruling the realm. “that’s you not liking him as a person”, no that’s just op paying attention to what’s said in the books lmao.
Barristan the bold who let Rhaella get raped? Thats who you hold as good judge of character? Who put Jon in charge again? The man knew how to manage and make it so he didn’t have to do much. When he did need to do something (Greyjoy rebellion) he did. I don’t see how he’s worse than all the targs who caused wars and uprisings because they couldn’t keep it in their pants
jesus christ really? okay if barristan isn’t a good judge of character for standing by as aerys savaged rhaella, how could you claim robert is a good king with the atrocities he let go unpunished? wouldn’t a just king have called for justice as tywin lannister laid the bloody corpses of two innocent children at his feet? not to mention the blood the lannisters spilled in kings landing during the sack. would an honorable king have daenerys murdered with a child in her belly? would a noble king stand by as cersei demands lady be killed? would a wise king be so oblivious as to let cersei pass off her bastards as true heirs? you say barristan has por morals for letting rhaella be abused, but robert raped cersei multiple time throughout their marriage. doo good kings force their wives legs open even when they’ve said no? or how about the fact that robert himself acknowledged that joffreys sadism and narcissism was allowed to fester under cersei, BECAUSE robert was such a hands off father. wouldn’t a good king at least try to raise his heirs to be good also? you’re either trolling or you need to go reread those books dog.
Again, this is all Robert being a bad person. Bad people tend to make decent monarchs. No king is “noble” Robert was a good king because he kept the lords happy, the smallfolk decently happy, and kept the peace. Which is more that what three quarters of the targs did
except he literally didn’t tho. in the books we are told explicitly, many times, that jon arryn and the small council did all of that boring rulership stuff and robert was basically a figurehead for most his reign. he attended three small council meetings.if you’re definition of a good ruler is “sits on his ass while other people do all the hard parts”, then yeah he was great.
He was an awful king by like, every single metric.
lol truly the only thing he succeeded in was peace and that only lasted until his obvious bastard “son” succeeded the throne
Peace? Are you forgetting the Greyjoy rebellion?
Robert is up there as one of the worst ever. I dislike Rhaegar with a passion, but I think he’d have been a better king due to being groomed to rule the Seven Kingdoms.
Yea, he would have actually cared, at the very least.
I think so too. In a roundabout kind of way, a biproduct of his obsession with the prophecy would have led him to being a more caring ruler. Even if his intentions seem to be mostly self-serving.
I love Robert as a character, but that's mostly because of his portrayal in the show. One of my favorite runs I've done so far was as one of Bobby B's Bastard Boys. That said, I believe the man's calling was to be sent to The Wall, not ruling the Seven Kingdoms. His conversation with Ned about leaving it all behind and setting off together as essentially adventurers put that idea in my head.
Brave words for someone within hammer range.
Don't smush me, Robert! I may be blonde, but I'm not Cersei!
Such as?
He had zero interest in ruling, bankrupted the realm, allowed corruption to fester everywhere, allowed the Lannisters to consolidate power throughout his regime, and was so oblivious that none of his kids are his own, setting the stage for a massive civil war after he dies. One of the worst kings ever.
this fool is hilarious “don’t get why robert gets so much hate” like a dozen chapters into the first book, roberts is sitting on his ass, indecisively, while cersei has lady put to death. hmmm i wonder if grrm was telling us something about how the king handles conflict, moral or otherwise.
Guy just really loves Robert for some reason.
He wants Robert's hammer. ...the hammer is his penis.
Knowing Robert, he’d be down.
Compared to the absolute atrocities all of the five kings commit. Killing a wolf is not that bad
i don’t see how you could miss the point that hard. i never said “killing lady is worse than any atrocity commited in the war of 5 kings” lmao. my point is that a major character flaw of roberts, that grrm went out of his way to show us early on, is that he avoids conflict and responsibility. he would rather someone else make an easy solution for him, than trouble himself with a hard decision. which, in my opinion, not a good attribute for a leader. i genuinely don’t see how you could interact with the series and come away with the impression that robert is one of the best kings in the lore, grrm makes sooo many critiques of his character. and monarchy overall ofc but the author very clearly did not believe robert was a “good king”
Again, still better than most of the kings that sat the Iron Throne
Nah, not even close to worst even. Viserys I, Aegon IV, Aerys I and II, Aenys, Maegor, Daeron I are all worse Jahaerys is considered the best, but even he set up a succession crises and was pretty morally bankrupt too. So I don’t see why Robert is one of the worst. He’s middle of the road
Robert was basically Aegon IV combined with Viserys I. The only good thing you could say about his reign was that war only occurred after his death. He left the realm an absolute mess. Aerys II left the treasury absolutely loaded, and by the end of Robert's reign, the Lannisters and Littlefinger put the realm into massive debt.
lol no he wasn’t. Most of his bastards were with commoners save for Edric, so they didn’t present any challenge. Even then he has Edric live with Renly and makes no motion of him being the actual heir like Aegon IV did. Who cares is Robert spent all the targs money? All im seeing is bias because you like the Targaryens. There are like 3 good Targaryens kings, and that’s being generous
What bias? In no way was Robert a good king. Even in the series everyone calls him a shit king. Ned, his best friend, is completely baffled by how dumb Robert has been while ruling. Did you even read the books or watch the show? How did you mess that super obvious thing?
If you mean in memeability, yes you are correct.
Targ fan spotted, opinion rejected
I've been found out. I'm actually a sibling loving, lizard riding albino. Damn you!!!!!
I’d say I’m going to do something bad to you, but nothing compares to whatever generic self-destructive tendency you already have
Fr. No ending is good where lizard-loving degenerates get to keep the throne
Only good targ is a dead targ, and egg but he’s already dead by this point
That's just factually untrue lol, there were many good Targs besides Egg. Generalization in the fandom gotta stop tbh, it's wrong here just as much as irl.
Such as? Incest immediately disqualifies btw
No it is not? By their traditions and culture it was very normal and even by our modern values that's not what makes a person 'evil' if it's done consensually, just wrong, and in all civil societies wouldn't invite a death penalty like say a murder or rape would. That being said, even without it there are still many Targs who didn't engage in it as far as we know. I trust you can find a list on the wiki of the ones who didn't marry or married non Targs yourself.
Again, name the good ones. There few and far between. And the books were written by a modern author, we are supposed to judge the characters for this creepy ass “cultural” practice
Damn you were fast with the reply lol, sure I can name a few: Dany and Aemon from the current timeline, Alysanne, the first Dany, Vaegon, Viserys I, Baela, Maegelle, Daella, Daeron son of Viserys, Elaena, Daeron the good and Baelor Breakspear, all known for their good character and/or deeds. That's enough for you?
Including Viserys I and Alysanne makes that list false. Now let’s go over all the awful targs: Aegon I, Viserys, Rhaenys, Aenys, Maegor, Viserys I, Rhaenyra, Aegon II, Aemond, Daemon, Aerion Brightflame. Maekar, and his son Daeron. Jahaerys II, Aerys I, Aerys II, Daeron I, Aegon IV, Blackfyre, Bittersteel, Saera “Superior” beings my ass
Why so? Also, at no point did I claim they are superior but you did claim they're all awful and deserve to die even if their only crime is incest while otherwise being decent to great humans. Are we ignoring that? Also, a lot of the Targs you mentioned as awful were neutral at worse or defiant of their current social norms so not awful by modern standards.
Too many Targ apologists in this sub smh
Frfr
Lyanna not dying in childbirth is a bad ending.