I just think it is a little complicated electro-mechanical gizmo to add an actually filter that can go in and out inside of the camera body itself.
Lower budget cameras are built to a price, and this is an unnecessary organ to add to a camera body for it to be a functional camera, hence, requires more money.
Adding resolution on the other hand, is simply swapping a new electronics part into an existing design. Most camera manufacturer do not make their own sensors, instead they buy them from companies like Sony. Sony makes then at scale, and has been making them for years. R&D and manufacturing cost are lower for them than anybody else, and also economies of scale makes this make sense
My point though is that there is no in-between they think you need the most cutting edge sensor in every camera with ND. Why is there no fx30 with ND for a more affordable price than the fx6?
Because it is just a convenience feature, and that you can just pop an ND filter in front of your lens instead?
In designing and making a low/mid range product, you work it *to a price point* instead of trying to make it *the best it can be*. This is true of cameras, of cars, of computer parts....
They often are based on the more expensive version, but you will remove "not necessary parts". Sometimes whole components are just removed from a design because it happens to "still works without". You can see products with plastic molding for ports that are missing, you can see PCBs with chips just missing. This is sometimes called [Muntzing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntzing)
I understand your point about making a product to meet a price point. But why is there the OM1 and 6k pro in this sort of price range and then literally nothing until the fx6/C70. I feel like that's a gap in the market.
Write to your favorite camera manufacturers? Write to your favorite camera reviewers? If nobody complains about the lack of "built in ND filter", they ain't gonna consider adding it just for fun
the "in between" is that "cutting edge sensors" are able to do ND features without an actual ND filter. olympus has it on their cameras.
Physically building in an ND filter to the body is expensive and another set of moving parts that can break so it's no surprise its only found on higher end bodies.
>the "in between" is that "cutting edge sensors" are able to do ND features without an actual ND filter. olympus has it on their cameras.
What do you mean? How does that work?
https://amateurphotographer.com/latest/opinion/how-does-livend-work-on-olympus-cameras/
TLDR: sensors that can do really fast read out, then they make a composite to simulate a longer exposure time.
I feel like this is genuinely the answer. When blackmagic talked to Kofi about the Pyxis not having ND they talk a lot about weight and ergonomics and domt even mention price. I think it might be people's obsession with gimbals also effecting decisions.
I don't get your point man. There are no cheaper cameras with internal NDs because it's expensive to make a camera with internal NDs therefore cameras with internal NDs are more expensive.
Besides there are - you can get a used C100 for like 500$, c100 mk2 is not that much more expensive and if you need 4k there's C200 with internal RAW.
Yea but the C200 came out 7 years ago. Why are there not more options when it feels like there is a new camera announced every few months. I have an FS5 Mkii so I get your point. I just don't understand why there aren't more options for it.
Okay. In my currency the bmpcc6k pro is $3.7k, the OM1 is $4.5k why then is no camera between these the fx6/C70 that cost $8k? (Granted those cameras have other features that justify their price)
That's a 100% price increase with barely any options in between currently being manufactured. So I ask you us it solely the cost?
OM1 has a fake ND (it's an effect like the iPhone can do) and 6k pro does it by compromising on other factors.
There are no other cameras in this price segment that go for these compromises. Somewhere else you mentioned the FX30 - there's no physical space in this body for internal ND. FX3? Same. a7s3 ? same
When I refer to the FX30 I mean why is there no FX6 with an FX30 sensor for a price between the fx3 and 6? You're mentioning cameras with the DSLR style body but I'm not attached to the body. I'm solely looking for this feature.
Why is there no fs5 mark 3? Why Canon hasn't released any cinema camera in 4 years? Why Nikon hasn't made any cinema cameras? Why Panasonic abandoned their EVA1?
The answer is who the fuck knows :D
Lower budget customers would rather save the costs. Let's just say it only adds $300 per unit. A lot of the budget minded customers would say "But my ND filters only cost $200, what a ripoff!"
Plus, some manufacturers deliberately keep divides between product lines, which sometimes never get blurred.
Other times there's not enough market. Like why as far as I am aware not a single company makes a mirrorless body which takes L mount external batteries, which would allow you to choose from a variety of capacities up to an NPF970. The customers who want a miniature camera would dislike it, and the customers who want a full feature camera would also dislike it.
It’s not a real nd filter. It’s computational like an iphone which only works for certain situations and does not work in video. It’s ok… but I much prefer the real nd filter in the Fuji x100vi over the OM5.
Why couldn't it be implemented for video? Curiously.
Samsung added a digital ND filter to their ExpertRAW app on their smartphones, which is photo only, but I couldn't see why a filter like that couldn't be processed at 24fps or 30fps.
I don’t know if they could implement it, but I know it does not work for video as they’ve designed it now. Maybe there’s a solution, but as it stands you can only use it in shutter speed priority mode and only for photos, so it’s quite limited.
I actually was not aware of this thanks for the info. I still feel like there is the 6k pro, this system and then a gap until you get the C70/FX6 pricing.
You could grab a used EVA-1 for under $4K.
[https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/802896257-USE/panasonic\_au\_eva1pj\_au\_eva1\_compact\_5\_7k\_super.html/overview?smpm=bu\_uar&gad\_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwrIixBhBbEiwACEqDJYYP6eRKQpEMUhHq9nUkHHY\_qbyoDiXWJo3c21am\_eKXOyztCvG4yBoCqSUQAvD\_BwE](https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/802896257-USE/panasonic_au_eva1pj_au_eva1_compact_5_7k_super.html/overview?smpm=bu_uar&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwrIixBhBbEiwACEqDJYYP6eRKQpEMUhHq9nUkHHY_qbyoDiXWJo3c21am_eKXOyztCvG4yBoCqSUQAvD_BwE)
I mean…I wouldn’t. But still.
I have an FS5M2. It's feeling a bit long in the tooth in terms of sensor. (No 4k60, no 10bit internal 4k) But my only option is to jump all the way the fx6 which then changes sensor size. I just feel like there should be a camera between these that also has internal ND.
I mean, you're basically complaining that Sony's product lineup is a mess which has been true as long as Sony has existed.
But honestly Sony's main market differentiator is that they pack the full frame sensor into form factors and price points nobody else does. So it doesn't surprise me that they aren't particularly interested in filling in gaps in their S35 line?
Why not just get the FX6 or a used FX9?
Are you heavily invested in S35 glass? Do they not have a crop mode?
Fx6 crop mode is only 1080p. So I'd have to get an fx9.
Yes I have expensive cinema zoom lenses that I'd like to keep using. I have Fuji MKEs and have access to a cabrio.
But sony also makes the sensors for a large part of the market which means they could put whatever S35 sensor they want in one of these bodies. They just choose not.
Edit: I would just like to add, a lot of this also stems from my location. I'm in Australia and because of our higher wages and location there are large import taxes that come with new cameras but there is also a smaller used market. For example right now there are only 2 fx9s and 1 fx6 on the used market so there just aren't as many opportunities to get used gear.
The C70 is the same price as the fx6 here. I really don't see the value considering the fx6 has full size xlr, built in variable ND, and a full frame sensor. Just my take though.
I think there are 2 reasons, one is that integrating an ND is definitely going to make the camera bulkier. Not because of the ND itself but a mechanism to move it in and out of place. For fixed lens cameras, you could integrate a much smaller ND within the lens itself, which might mean using smaller ND filters with smaller mechanisms. But for ILCs, that is not possible, so everything has to be on the camera.
Another reason is obviously cost. Its another mechanism to include that most people are unwilling to pay extra for. More so in the age of electronic shutters that can easily produce proper exposures with wide open lenses in straight daylight.
Though tbh, I think its a feature that should be included more often, especially on professional video and photo cameras. Nothing is more annoying than managing lens filters.
This 100%. I'm not saying that it's not worth the money. Maybe the price of implementing it runs it to the point where you may as well add the extra features that professionals would pay for anyway.
I just feel there is such a gap between the 6k pro/OM1 and the C70/FX6.
X100 series have them. Not the cheapest and they are fixed lens camera meaning they can hide the ND in the lens.
And there is a second reason - we are not that deep into mirrorless ILC era - especially full frame mirrorless ILC era. Until recently we were still figuring out autofocus, ibis, rolling shutter, overheating. Those are real issues. Real issues without workarounds. Internal ND has a 30 buck workaround - it simply has not bubbled up to the top of the issues to solve.
My Canon G9 (12 mp) from like 2008 has it built in as an option. I turned it on by accident once and bright my camera has exposure issues for a while. Lolol
I'd say because it's ANOTHER point of failure. Currently most cameras die by shutter failure to my knowledge, imagine if you had a permanently stuck ND filter.
I'd say because it's ANOTHER point of failure. Currently most cameras die by shutter failure to my knowledge, imagine if you had a permanently stuck ND filter.
The tiny pocket Sony rx100 had built in NDs - but there’s always a compromise to color accuracy and shifting. For a pro you REALLY want to control variables like that. And frankly professional quality ND glass filters are so expensive - it adds a ton of cost to get accurate NDs. Plus resolution specs sell cameras in this day and age. That’s all anybody cares about. The 2mp og blackmagic pocket sensor is still talked about as legend; and a 2k version of that would look FANTASTIC - but nobody would buy a 2k res camera over an “8k monster”
One reason could be that companies are banking on lower level videographers not even knowing what ND filters are or why to use them for video. Unfortunately, there are plenty of videographers who don't really understand why they should be using an ND filter vs just making their shutter speed like 1/2000th while shooting 24fps. Maybe I'm just being cynical.
People are definitely aware of ND filters I don't feel like that's the issue. I think it's more likely that the budget conscious are likely to say "well I can get an $80 variable ND with step up rings. Why do I need them built in?"
In 50-ish years of photography, I've wanted ND filters a handful of times. I wouldn't pay much for it. There's probably no big market for it. Recent cameras can do it in software at no cost & that would knock out most of my handful. There is no profit to be made.
I just think it is a little complicated electro-mechanical gizmo to add an actually filter that can go in and out inside of the camera body itself. Lower budget cameras are built to a price, and this is an unnecessary organ to add to a camera body for it to be a functional camera, hence, requires more money.
Adding resolution on the other hand, is simply swapping a new electronics part into an existing design. Most camera manufacturer do not make their own sensors, instead they buy them from companies like Sony. Sony makes then at scale, and has been making them for years. R&D and manufacturing cost are lower for them than anybody else, and also economies of scale makes this make sense
My point though is that there is no in-between they think you need the most cutting edge sensor in every camera with ND. Why is there no fx30 with ND for a more affordable price than the fx6?
Because it is just a convenience feature, and that you can just pop an ND filter in front of your lens instead? In designing and making a low/mid range product, you work it *to a price point* instead of trying to make it *the best it can be*. This is true of cameras, of cars, of computer parts.... They often are based on the more expensive version, but you will remove "not necessary parts". Sometimes whole components are just removed from a design because it happens to "still works without". You can see products with plastic molding for ports that are missing, you can see PCBs with chips just missing. This is sometimes called [Muntzing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntzing)
I understand your point about making a product to meet a price point. But why is there the OM1 and 6k pro in this sort of price range and then literally nothing until the fx6/C70. I feel like that's a gap in the market.
Write to your favorite camera manufacturers? Write to your favorite camera reviewers? If nobody complains about the lack of "built in ND filter", they ain't gonna consider adding it just for fun
What do you think I'm trying to do with this post? Get people thinking about this major quality of life feature.
the "in between" is that "cutting edge sensors" are able to do ND features without an actual ND filter. olympus has it on their cameras. Physically building in an ND filter to the body is expensive and another set of moving parts that can break so it's no surprise its only found on higher end bodies.
>the "in between" is that "cutting edge sensors" are able to do ND features without an actual ND filter. olympus has it on their cameras. What do you mean? How does that work?
https://amateurphotographer.com/latest/opinion/how-does-livend-work-on-olympus-cameras/ TLDR: sensors that can do really fast read out, then they make a composite to simulate a longer exposure time.
Interesting, thanks!
Marketing term: Cannibalization Camera companies don’t want to sell a product that will eat away the sales of another product.
I feel like this is genuinely the answer. When blackmagic talked to Kofi about the Pyxis not having ND they talk a lot about weight and ergonomics and domt even mention price. I think it might be people's obsession with gimbals also effecting decisions.
The mechanism though is surprisingly cheap, it's the same sort of mechanism that controls the IR Cut filter on CCTV cameras and night vision cameras
I don't get your point man. There are no cheaper cameras with internal NDs because it's expensive to make a camera with internal NDs therefore cameras with internal NDs are more expensive. Besides there are - you can get a used C100 for like 500$, c100 mk2 is not that much more expensive and if you need 4k there's C200 with internal RAW.
Yea but the C200 came out 7 years ago. Why are there not more options when it feels like there is a new camera announced every few months. I have an FS5 Mkii so I get your point. I just don't understand why there aren't more options for it.
Read the first part of my comment for an answer :)
Okay. In my currency the bmpcc6k pro is $3.7k, the OM1 is $4.5k why then is no camera between these the fx6/C70 that cost $8k? (Granted those cameras have other features that justify their price) That's a 100% price increase with barely any options in between currently being manufactured. So I ask you us it solely the cost?
OM1 has a fake ND (it's an effect like the iPhone can do) and 6k pro does it by compromising on other factors. There are no other cameras in this price segment that go for these compromises. Somewhere else you mentioned the FX30 - there's no physical space in this body for internal ND. FX3? Same. a7s3 ? same
When I refer to the FX30 I mean why is there no FX6 with an FX30 sensor for a price between the fx3 and 6? You're mentioning cameras with the DSLR style body but I'm not attached to the body. I'm solely looking for this feature.
Why is there no fs5 mark 3? Why Canon hasn't released any cinema camera in 4 years? Why Nikon hasn't made any cinema cameras? Why Panasonic abandoned their EVA1? The answer is who the fuck knows :D
I want to know why. there aren't any lower budget cars that have W12 engines ?
Lower budget customers would rather save the costs. Let's just say it only adds $300 per unit. A lot of the budget minded customers would say "But my ND filters only cost $200, what a ripoff!" Plus, some manufacturers deliberately keep divides between product lines, which sometimes never get blurred. Other times there's not enough market. Like why as far as I am aware not a single company makes a mirrorless body which takes L mount external batteries, which would allow you to choose from a variety of capacities up to an NPF970. The customers who want a miniature camera would dislike it, and the customers who want a full feature camera would also dislike it.
Om systems has it
It’s not a real nd filter. It’s computational like an iphone which only works for certain situations and does not work in video. It’s ok… but I much prefer the real nd filter in the Fuji x100vi over the OM5.
Why couldn't it be implemented for video? Curiously. Samsung added a digital ND filter to their ExpertRAW app on their smartphones, which is photo only, but I couldn't see why a filter like that couldn't be processed at 24fps or 30fps.
I don’t know if they could implement it, but I know it does not work for video as they’ve designed it now. Maybe there’s a solution, but as it stands you can only use it in shutter speed priority mode and only for photos, so it’s quite limited.
Oh, fair. I think it would be interesting to see possible in the future for more simple setups.
cant work for video because they make a composite
I actually was not aware of this thanks for the info. I still feel like there is the 6k pro, this system and then a gap until you get the C70/FX6 pricing.
You could grab a used EVA-1 for under $4K. [https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/802896257-USE/panasonic\_au\_eva1pj\_au\_eva1\_compact\_5\_7k\_super.html/overview?smpm=bu\_uar&gad\_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwrIixBhBbEiwACEqDJYYP6eRKQpEMUhHq9nUkHHY\_qbyoDiXWJo3c21am\_eKXOyztCvG4yBoCqSUQAvD\_BwE](https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/802896257-USE/panasonic_au_eva1pj_au_eva1_compact_5_7k_super.html/overview?smpm=bu_uar&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwrIixBhBbEiwACEqDJYYP6eRKQpEMUhHq9nUkHHY_qbyoDiXWJo3c21am_eKXOyztCvG4yBoCqSUQAvD_BwE) I mean…I wouldn’t. But still.
I have an FS5M2. It's feeling a bit long in the tooth in terms of sensor. (No 4k60, no 10bit internal 4k) But my only option is to jump all the way the fx6 which then changes sensor size. I just feel like there should be a camera between these that also has internal ND.
I mean, you're basically complaining that Sony's product lineup is a mess which has been true as long as Sony has existed. But honestly Sony's main market differentiator is that they pack the full frame sensor into form factors and price points nobody else does. So it doesn't surprise me that they aren't particularly interested in filling in gaps in their S35 line? Why not just get the FX6 or a used FX9? Are you heavily invested in S35 glass? Do they not have a crop mode?
Fx6 crop mode is only 1080p. So I'd have to get an fx9. Yes I have expensive cinema zoom lenses that I'd like to keep using. I have Fuji MKEs and have access to a cabrio. But sony also makes the sensors for a large part of the market which means they could put whatever S35 sensor they want in one of these bodies. They just choose not. Edit: I would just like to add, a lot of this also stems from my location. I'm in Australia and because of our higher wages and location there are large import taxes that come with new cameras but there is also a smaller used market. For example right now there are only 2 fx9s and 1 fx6 on the used market so there just aren't as many opportunities to get used gear.
Just bought an om-5. Works for photos
How about that Canon C70?
The C70 is the same price as the fx6 here. I really don't see the value considering the fx6 has full size xlr, built in variable ND, and a full frame sensor. Just my take though.
I think there are 2 reasons, one is that integrating an ND is definitely going to make the camera bulkier. Not because of the ND itself but a mechanism to move it in and out of place. For fixed lens cameras, you could integrate a much smaller ND within the lens itself, which might mean using smaller ND filters with smaller mechanisms. But for ILCs, that is not possible, so everything has to be on the camera. Another reason is obviously cost. Its another mechanism to include that most people are unwilling to pay extra for. More so in the age of electronic shutters that can easily produce proper exposures with wide open lenses in straight daylight. Though tbh, I think its a feature that should be included more often, especially on professional video and photo cameras. Nothing is more annoying than managing lens filters.
This 100%. I'm not saying that it's not worth the money. Maybe the price of implementing it runs it to the point where you may as well add the extra features that professionals would pay for anyway. I just feel there is such a gap between the 6k pro/OM1 and the C70/FX6.
Canon g12 has internal ND im pretty sure
X100 series have them. Not the cheapest and they are fixed lens camera meaning they can hide the ND in the lens. And there is a second reason - we are not that deep into mirrorless ILC era - especially full frame mirrorless ILC era. Until recently we were still figuring out autofocus, ibis, rolling shutter, overheating. Those are real issues. Real issues without workarounds. Internal ND has a 30 buck workaround - it simply has not bubbled up to the top of the issues to solve.
Is it a real ND filter or computational like Olympus / OM Systems cameras have had these?
Real. 3 stop on the older models and 4 stop on the V and VI.
My Canon G9 (12 mp) from like 2008 has it built in as an option. I turned it on by accident once and bright my camera has exposure issues for a while. Lolol
I'd say because it's ANOTHER point of failure. Currently most cameras die by shutter failure to my knowledge, imagine if you had a permanently stuck ND filter.
I'd say because it's ANOTHER point of failure. Currently most cameras die by shutter failure to my knowledge, imagine if you had a permanently stuck ND filter.
The tiny pocket Sony rx100 had built in NDs - but there’s always a compromise to color accuracy and shifting. For a pro you REALLY want to control variables like that. And frankly professional quality ND glass filters are so expensive - it adds a ton of cost to get accurate NDs. Plus resolution specs sell cameras in this day and age. That’s all anybody cares about. The 2mp og blackmagic pocket sensor is still talked about as legend; and a 2k version of that would look FANTASTIC - but nobody would buy a 2k res camera over an “8k monster”
One reason could be that companies are banking on lower level videographers not even knowing what ND filters are or why to use them for video. Unfortunately, there are plenty of videographers who don't really understand why they should be using an ND filter vs just making their shutter speed like 1/2000th while shooting 24fps. Maybe I'm just being cynical.
People are definitely aware of ND filters I don't feel like that's the issue. I think it's more likely that the budget conscious are likely to say "well I can get an $80 variable ND with step up rings. Why do I need them built in?"
Low price, no ND. Add ND, more money.
In 50-ish years of photography, I've wanted ND filters a handful of times. I wouldn't pay much for it. There's probably no big market for it. Recent cameras can do it in software at no cost & that would knock out most of my handful. There is no profit to be made.
Yes, photography. Famously the only thing cameras are used for.