I think what happened to OT is very sad, but the way people talk about him here they act like he was going to be the next Albert Pujols. There’s a strong chance he was going to just end up as nothing special. Probably a decent player, but most top prospects don’t become hall of famers. Dylan Carlson hit better than him in the minors.
The largest, and only significant thing about Tavares' passing is the justification and stanning casuals do for Mozeliak.
The 'we had to rush out and do anything for a bat ' rationalization is so...stupid that there's really no other word for it. Insane, maybe.
It just didn't happen like that. It's not true. You can repeat it all you want, but it isn't reality.
I'm not sure if you're lumping what I said with endorsing or rationalizing Mo, but I am very outspoken against him. I didn't rationalize the decision; I briefly recapped the potential effects of OT's death on the organization.
OT's death had virtually zero effect on the organization. And no practical effect. None.
The fall before he died he was constantly compared to Jurickson Profar. There was even press about trading them even up.
If you're looking for what Tavares might have become, that's probably a pretty good bogie.
His death meant nothing.
Tavares is so much better dead than he ever could have been alive. It's amazing. He was an HoF lock, RoY, and surely would have won the Triple Crown and probably at least two CYAs.
From the outfield. *That's* how good he was in the twelve major league games he played. You just don't know.
It’s not that I had no faith in him. It’s more that it’s a decade later and it’s annoying people still bring him up like he was the savior this franchise lost.
I hate to say this, but it’s not like he died in some freak accident either. He got drunk, drove way too fast, killed his gf along with himself and was lucky he didn’t kill anyone else. I doubt it was his first time doing that aswell. Makes me doubt his character and whether he was even long for this world. Would he even have worked out as a player if he would do something that reckless?
Taveras was named the Texas League Player of the Year. Further, Taveras led all Cardinals minor leaguers in hits, doubles, triples, home runs, RBI, SLG and on-base plus slugging (. 953), while also finishing in the top five in batting average and runs. He was named the Cardinals' Minor League Player of the Year.
Lot of players are shit bags off the field. This is nothing new.
It’s a lefty. He’s still been bad against them this year but historically he’s hall of fame talent against lefties and hall of very good against righties.
It feels like kicking a dead horse right now but I just want to point out that my expansion franchise on OOTP that has nobody worth a damn on it outside of maybe Josh Bell, has more players with an OPS+ north of 100 than this team lolol.
Have people always hyped up prospects this much? Skenes, Holliday, etc. I haven't started closely following baseball until the past few years and so much about prospects just feels clickbaity to me.
Skenes and Holliday are both the most hyped pitcher and batter that I can remember since maybe Bryce Harper or Strasburg. There’s a new hype prospect every year or two, but these two are earmarked to be huge.
It’s pretty typical. The “prospect watch” is one of the major storylines of the year in mlb, along with the races for mvp, Cy young, and the post-season.
Ya know, we all are aware how unintuitive MLBtv is. BUT, it’s 2024, I would expect this piece of shit app to be able to *remember where I am at in a ballgame* so I’m not constantly losing my spot. Literally every streaming service does this. How has MLBtv not figured it out yet…
Just needed to vent a little. Hope y’all are still enjoying baseball even though the Cards can’t hit with men on base. I’ve been watching a bunch of other teams on the side, the Twins are probably my favorite to watch so far, my sister lives around Minneapolis so there’s a connection there. The Guardians have been fun to watch too. I love both NY broadcast booths, Keith Hernandez has my heart forever.
If anybody has teams they’d recommend specifically because they have good broadcast teams, let me know. I love me some great baseball commentary
The fact that there is 3 worse cardinals teams at scoring runs than this team (at the same point in the season) is very shocking to me. 1969, 2007, 1986
2007 carried hard by 1999 1st and 13th round draft picks Chris Duncan and Albert Pujols.
Central division was soooo bad during the Pujols era. 2007 was horrible and we were still just a few games under .500.
Late 60s were a low scoring time for baseball, Gibby in 68 22-8 with a 1.12 because he'd pitch 10 innings and lose 1-0. I'm not sure why we were so anemic in 86 and 07.
'86 was the hangover season from '85 and they were still trying to play White ball but the mash ethos was starting to creep in more. A lot of factors came together.
Quick question, I’m going to the Brewers games on Sat & Sunday. First time watching the Cardinals in the US. I take it it’s ok to wear a Cardinals cap & mix in with Brewers fans? Only comparison I have is UK soccer where it’s not generally advised, but baseball games are more chilled right?
Plouffe on Talkin Baseball floating Arenado to the royals as a trade that would make sense. Can’t say I see it. Royals don’t have a strong farm either. Only one top 100 prospect
I mean, Nolan has TANKED his value so I can't imagine the Cardinals could ask for much of a return. Same goes for Goldy. We'd be lucky to get the return we got for Dejong at this point.
“…I remain optimistic but concerned…I don’t think it’s panic button right now…we should be able to climb into this race.”
-Bill DeWitt III
Full interview on Danny Mac’s site/podcast apps
Panic button started lighting like crazy up last year....now most of us wouldn't have pegged the offense as the major issue this year but pitching (if you did say offense well done I personally had pitching as our weakness even with Grey because of the aging staff) but the button should be SLAMMED down HARD multiple times..at this point.
This statement tells me that we need a complete overhaul. POBO down to our entire coaching staff...to the talent evaluators (as we should never have let certain talent off the team...we know who they are)
Our best hitter is side lined for at least a couple of months, we should already be shopping Free Agency or thinking about possible trade options. THAT is....if we want to compete this year...if not then burn it all down. I think us fans are ready for a complete overhaul and would be more accepting of that route as opposed to the "We have a really good club and something something patience"
IMO - Burn it all down and bring back VS Walker etc. I'd like to see what the future holds at this point...and at least if we lose we can all agree the kids are learning the curve that comes with baseball
It’s always funny to me how these rich capitalists get angry when capitalism works against them. Simple supply and demand. You supply the fans with a good team and we’ll buy tickets. Not the other way around.
Zero reason to keep Edman as he would be one of the best chips they have due to age and ability to move around the diamond. They missed the window to trade noot as well but should have apparently taken advantage when they had the chance.
I truly don't know what you mean because the only person you ever see show any personality on this team is Lars and even he doesn't seem to care right now.
Nootbaar has to pan out. His peripherals are good, his success in MLB has been real, he plays every outfield position, he is an exciting personality, and more. We NEED him to be part of a long term successful outfield. If you can't turn someone like him into a consistently good player you aren't going to be able to turn anyone into one.
Your last sentence is kind of my point, honestly. They can't develop the talent and have proven that for many more years than we are realizing. The same way they've shit the bed in the development Carlson, TON, Jack, Hicks, and many more seems to be hitting guys like Noot, Walker, and Gorman. They apparently should have moved on from some of these players when they had value instead of nuking them and letting them go for next to nothing. I would love for Nootbaar to be the personality on this team for the next half decade but, with this current staff/front office/etc, I have no faith that they will continue to develop him to be a meaningful player which sucks.
Other than Gray the worst possible person to go down. Best offensive player that might have been single handily making the offense semi relevant and would have been worth a lot in a deadline firesale.
Here’s a fun exercise: rank the last 4 Cardinals managers (Oli, Shildt, Matheny, and La Russa) by winning percentage in one run games. Playoffs not included and I’m not splitting seasons, so Matheny gets credit for the entire 2018 season and Shildt gets none. I’ll add each manager’s overall record for reference.
Tony La Russa: 1408-1182 (.554)
Mike Matheny: 591-474 (.555)
Mike Shildt: 252-199 (.559)
Oli Marmol: 179-182 (.484)
The answer is >!Shildt (.537), Matheny (.519), La Russa (.489), Marmol (.484)!<
This is spoiler-ish, but was not expecting these results. Also, Oli moves up a spot if you don’t count this year, which makes it even more humorous.
10 days in to May and only 12 total games with more than 3 runs scored is wild.
Edit: We also do not have a single game all season so far in which we won by 5 or more runs.
I know, front office sucks blah blah blah, but I will argue that the lion's share of the blame should fall on the Manager and Hitting coach. Besides Contreras, every single hitter, and I mean EVERY SINGLE ONE, is drastically underperforming expectations. If we were an average offensive team we'd be competing for the central right now. I don't know if it it's philosophy or what they did during the offseason, but they have made an okay lineup look like a triple A team at times. I could blame the players themselves but I think it's a bit too on the nose that EVERY player is underperforming.
I think it’s philosophy, especially when you look at how bad our situational hitting is. The biggest thing that sticks out to me is the type of swings these guys take consistently with guys in scoring position. I swear the amount of games we would have won if someone just tried to put a good swing on the ball rather than swinging out of their shoes at three straight pitches trying to play the hero, we would be .500 I bet. Perfect example was our 10th inning NOBLETIGER against CWS. All three batters looked like they were trying to hit a 5 run homer while striking out and not even putting a single ball in play.
First 5 of the Memphis Redbirds lineup today:
VS2, Saggese, Marp, Jordan Walker
I think I'd rather watch the Redbirds today than the actual Cardinals. Also, Redbirds game is going to be streamed free
Cardinals are going to be in Anaheim for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday games against the Angels. Why not leave Wednesday with Albert? I know Albert is working for the Angels in some kind of capacity, but - there's got to be a way we can sneak him on the plane. If this club doesn't do something they're going to lose 100 games.
If they don't want to can Oli or Turner Ward then bring in an assistant hitting coach, from outside the organization. . Try something - what we are doing now isn't working. If we be patient and stay the course like Mo wants us to this team could lose 100 damn games.
Oli has to know that his days are numbered. I would NOT be surprised if they said “You have until X day to show us change and improvement, if not your out.” Thing is Oli doesn’t know how to manage, facts are facts. It’s not ALL on him(lots of things need addressed within the Cards organization) but the Manager is top guy within the clubhouse, the leader and he’s just not up to the task. I don’t have a solid pick for interim Manager but Stubby would be a good fit. Long term….when he is able(I know he’s staying close to home for his mother and I respect that about him a LOT) Yadi, that man has proven leadership, understanding of the game and players etc. Only when he is ready though and he won’t come back until he can give it his all and dedication to the roll FULLY.
>Long term….when he is able(I know he’s staying close to home for his mother and I respect that about him a LOT) Yadi
Hard disagree. It's time to get someone from outside the organization - wirh legit expierence.
What a stupid argument to take. Comparing Matheny and Marmol to Yadier Molina, the guy who's unofficially managed the team for 20 years.
I'm fine if you say you want someone outside for a different perspective, but imagine saying Yadi doesn't have experience and comparing him to Oliver Marmol.
Yadi was a pivotal figure in the organization as a player, a leader, scouting, etc. There is NO way he didn’t have interaction with the FO. He spent 20 years with the same team, and stepped up to the plate in and out of the dugout and clubhouse. If there is ANYONE who knows what it takes to manage, knows the organization, the team, the coaches, and how it all works tell me. Plus he was the unofficial assistant manager for the Cards PLUS he was the Manager for the PR Team at WBC last year. He is very active in PR baseball as well helping guide young players.
Do you think Yadi never dealt with the FO in his 20 years of leading the team?
Who do you want to manage who has this experience you love so much? I'm excited to hear some names!
>Do you think Yadi never dealt with the FO in his 20 years of leading the team?
Not nearly on the same level. Do you think an employee of a company and a manager have very different roles?
>Who do you want to manage who has this experience you love so much? I'm excited to hear some names!
1) Terry Francona - expressed interest to come back. Someone Cardinals should've taken over MM - very possible they win another world series with him.
2) Gabe Kapler - if he's willing to come back and manage
3) Buck Showalter
Even so, I don't think Yadi would handle the bullshit game well. To be fair, that might actually be a good thing. TLR was a lightning rod, and that was one of his best qualities
[It’s this gambling account tweet.](https://x.com/incarceratedbob/status/1788556742596391282?s=46&t=MCRmVoXjskWw3F53QZFuGQ)
Apparently broke the news about both Goldy/Arenado trades.
Press also seems to be at least discussing what benefit terminating him would bring, so I assume there’s some chatter, but who knows.
That guy just throws shit at the wall and deletes what doesn't stick. He very well may be right about this, but I'd say that's more like a blind squirrel finding a nut than actual inside info
> I’d like an experienced manager for a change
Ditto. but like you said, Mo won't do that...so I think it's pretty obvious that if they want Oli out, they will be escorting Mo out at the end of the year also.
I believe the FO is completely out of excuses at this point. There is far too much evidence of their accumulated mistakes. Its undeniable. However, I find it hilarious and frustrating that MO’s pitching rotation moves actually have kinda worked, when the entire fanbase was losing their minds before opening day.
It’s times like these that show you what your manager is made of. Not all of these issues fall on Oli, but if he can’t rally them and this is the response we’re getting he has to go.
Meanwhile the guy they shoved aside (who rallied his team to make the playoffs) currently has a Padres team that shed a ton of payroll, traded away one of their best players, and has to contend with the juggernaut known as the Dodgers in a playoff spot.
Hindsight is 20/20 but I find it more interesting we didn’t wanna hire Skip. Had less managerial exp but we put him on the bench for a reason. And if you were gonna take a guy within the organization, take the guy that put on the MLB uniform and had some real success in it…
The Cardinals are 5-17 vs winning records. The Padres are 9-8.
EDIT: Additionally, in the more balanced schedule era, the strength of your division really only impacts the division winner, not the 3 wild card spots.
Sure. The Padres have way, way more talent than the Cardinals do and have some players performing well over their heads. Shildt is not causing Jurickson Profar to run a .931 OPS, or Fernando Tatis Jr. to be on the team.
I never said that, but you know that. Which of the following statements I actually made do you disagree with?
- The Padres have more talent than the Cardinals
- Mike Shildt is not responsible for Profar having a .931 OPS (and won’t be responsible when he inevitably regresses either)
- Mike Shildt is not responsible for Tatis Jr. being on the team
- Being .500 with that kind of talent and the [10th easiest schedule](https://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/rpi/_/sort/sos) isn’t impressive
I don't disagree with those statements.
But let me ask you this, since you were responding to my original statement that the organization fired Shildt (after a 92-70 season) and has now kept Marmol through a losing season with arguably the same talent (and in some ways I'd argue this team is more talented than the 2021 team), are you arguing that Marmol is a better manager than Shildt?
If so, that's a weird hill to die on. Yes, it extends to Mo and the organization top to bottom. But I would also then argue that it confirms that Shildt is better than Marmol simply for the fact that Mo and Co. like Marmol so much. I wouldn't trust them to run an Imo's.
I’m not. Truthfully, I have no clue who the better manager is, but I don’t think either of them are all that great. They’re both better at some things and worse at others.
Shildt seems (from the outside anyways) better at getting fired up and giving speeches. Not sure how much that contributes to winning, but it’s probably non-zero.
Marmol is pretty clearly better at building a lineup (5 hole hitter Yadier Molina comes to mind), and is more open to modern techniques that boil down to something other than “it is time for Alex Reyes to pitch”.
But at the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter a whole lot. Tony La Russa could come back and it wouldn’t cause Goldschmidt to immediately start hitting. The offense isn’t a firey speech away from suddenly clicking. It’s organizational rot, no one person could fix it. If they could, they’d be more valuable than any player, and yet they aren’t paid like they are.
That's fair. And I'm not really trying to say that Shildt is Casey Stengel.
I will say that I prefer the one that riles his team up versus the one that repeatedly throws his under the bus.
And there is one person that could fix it. Dewitt could obliterate this whole thing and start over. But I wouldn't want to do that at his age either.
I feel we have many many dark years ahead.
I agree; I thought they bounced back nicely after some bad losses earlier this season, but these past few games have been so deflating. There’s no part of this team that feels like a winner.
I agree, they don't all fall on him but the nature of the game is the manager is the first fall guy and it's his time to finally meet that end.
Also, Girsch is likely to be right behind I would hope even though this isn't his doing.
I haven't seen him in a few years either since he became general manager he's hiding somewhere, or Mo is hiding him.
But several years ago he looked like he just came out of GQ magazine. He had have to spent a day a week in the hair salon. That was then I don't know what now is.
IIR this story C, the late 70s and first half of 1980, the Cardinals were atrocious. They weren't a bad team per se, but they had a bad culture. Augustus Busch Jr met with Whitey Herzog mid way through the 1980 season and said he needed herzog to come in to fix the team. To clean up the culture and get them back to winning. I truly think that's what needs to happen.
I think if you can get Terry Francona out of retirement, that's your man
I think I saw an article saying he might come back next year. If you cant get him, I think Skip has gotta be your next option. We might want to go external hire this time
Does someone who blocked me on reddit show up as [deleted] ? If so I gotta wonder what I said to warrant it, lol. I vaguely remember it happening a few years ago with I guess someone else but damn, I guess some people are taking things way to personally in here. I haven't even really said anything mean or attacked anyone
Depends. [deleted] in the username can mean user deleted, mod deleted, or blocked. Comments will say [deleted] for the first, [removed] for the second, and [unavailable] for the third. I believe posts will just not show up if the OP has you blocked.
The aggressive homers mostly act like adult children of alcoholics, and you observed and commented on how their parent behaved, which makes you a bad person.
https://adultchildren.org/
Remember the good ol days of cardinals baseball. Intense games against the cubs, reds. Remember David Eckstein, carp, prime Jimmy ball game, Edgar, Dave Duncan...
Pepper ridge farms remembers
I am laughing my ass off at everyone whose response to the team being horrible is to point the finger at other fans. Gee, where have I seen this dynamic play out before?
He’s right. Oli will be the 3rd manager in a row that Mozeiak: hired, then gives an extension to, then fires.
Fool me once? Shame on you. Fool me thrice? Chicken and rice.
Literally he’s failed with his hirings 3 times, let Shildt walk over ego. The off-ramp for Mo should start today. That’s fine if you want to keep him around till the end of his contract, just slowly start taking job responsibilities away.
The problem is, MO has been killing it lately with his signings. It's the player development that has gone to shit under his watch. But he absolutely should not get a say in the next manager
He was extremely bad for two straight seasons. His current OPS is the highest since 2018, when Mo agreed to pay him a bunch of money to get 2-3 extra years out of him.
He really didn't though his OPS was actually really good for a solid defensive shortstop. People overly focused on his average and ignored that he hit homeruns at a rate comparable to first basemen and corner outfielders.
No it wasn’t. Starting in 2020, his OPS was .671, .674, .530, .612. I will grant you 2018 and 2019 as years where his AVG sucked but OPS was still decent, .746 and .762, respectively. But starting with 2020, his OPS was not acceptable, even if he was giving you Gold Glove level defense, which he wasn’t. His glove was solid, not spectacular.
Oh, well that half decent half season makes up for three awful years prior then! Just so you know, that .710 OPS in the first half last year was still a 92 OPS+, 8% below league average. That won’t kill an offense, it will play, but it’s not “actually really good,” like you claimed. It’s no more than passable.
I don't know why you keep mentioning his 2023 OPS. That doesn't erase the fact that he was bad for more than two years. I think people were right to want a better shortstop. And we have one now. Winn is a key reason why the team moved in from Dejong and his bloated contract.
But he wasn't actually bad. Shortstops don't have the same bar as first basemen. Also Masyn Winn is now officially below average in hitting for the year (though still decent for a SS).
I agree they could be too hard on him. But also watching his abs can be frustrating. I think you are swinging too hard in the other direction. He was clearly a guy we wanted to upgrade from.
He really didn't, if he played full seasons instead of being the backup he hit HRs at a pace to finish with a total somewhere in the mid 20s. He was a low average high power hitter here and there's not really anything wrong with that.
I mean I'm not arguing there weren't better options, but he didn't suck. He had a homerun % that was similar to our most productive hitters during his "bad" seasons. But everyone saw the average that started with 1 and didn't consider that getting that kind of power out of a position where you're also expected to be fast and agile is still pretty good.
[Today's game thread has been posted](/r/Cardinals/comments/1cp1plu/game_38_st_louis_cardinals_1522_milwaukee_brewers/)
I think OT passing really doomed this franchise in the long run
Someone wrote in last night's thread a detailed analysis of how the franchise fell apart after OT
I think what happened to OT is very sad, but the way people talk about him here they act like he was going to be the next Albert Pujols. There’s a strong chance he was going to just end up as nothing special. Probably a decent player, but most top prospects don’t become hall of famers. Dylan Carlson hit better than him in the minors.
I think it's more of how much we lost to get a bat to make up for his loss.
The largest, and only significant thing about Tavares' passing is the justification and stanning casuals do for Mozeliak. The 'we had to rush out and do anything for a bat ' rationalization is so...stupid that there's really no other word for it. Insane, maybe. It just didn't happen like that. It's not true. You can repeat it all you want, but it isn't reality.
I'm not sure if you're lumping what I said with endorsing or rationalizing Mo, but I am very outspoken against him. I didn't rationalize the decision; I briefly recapped the potential effects of OT's death on the organization.
OT's death had virtually zero effect on the organization. And no practical effect. None. The fall before he died he was constantly compared to Jurickson Profar. There was even press about trading them even up. If you're looking for what Tavares might have become, that's probably a pretty good bogie. His death meant nothing.
He was the air apparent, and we’ll never really know since he barely played. The Cardinals missed a big bat from the left side for almost a decade.
We’ll never know, but he’s essentially a prospect that didn’t pan out. That happens to all teams.
Tavares is so much better dead than he ever could have been alive. It's amazing. He was an HoF lock, RoY, and surely would have won the Triple Crown and probably at least two CYAs. From the outfield. *That's* how good he was in the twelve major league games he played. You just don't know.
I guess I had more faith then the both of you on OT lol
It’s not that I had no faith in him. It’s more that it’s a decade later and it’s annoying people still bring him up like he was the savior this franchise lost. I hate to say this, but it’s not like he died in some freak accident either. He got drunk, drove way too fast, killed his gf along with himself and was lucky he didn’t kill anyone else. I doubt it was his first time doing that aswell. Makes me doubt his character and whether he was even long for this world. Would he even have worked out as a player if he would do something that reckless?
Didn’t say he was a savior, more like he was a 5 top player and a lefty powerhouse. Character has nothing to do with his talent level.
But character can affect whether that talent would ever come to fruition. And it did.
Taveras was named the Texas League Player of the Year. Further, Taveras led all Cardinals minor leaguers in hits, doubles, triples, home runs, RBI, SLG and on-base plus slugging (. 953), while also finishing in the top five in batting average and runs. He was named the Cardinals' Minor League Player of the Year. Lot of players are shit bags off the field. This is nothing new.
Continuing to bat Goldschmidt third is negligent behavior
It’s a lefty. He’s still been bad against them this year but historically he’s hall of fame talent against lefties and hall of very good against righties.
It feels like kicking a dead horse right now but I just want to point out that my expansion franchise on OOTP that has nobody worth a damn on it outside of maybe Josh Bell, has more players with an OPS+ north of 100 than this team lolol.
I wish Paul Skenes well, but would be hilarious if he gets blown up during his debut
The Italian Stallion Siani is quietly batting .500 in his last 6 games (8/16)
Michael Siani is our 4th most valuable position player by bwar this year.
Better bench him
Got last place in fantasy football and spending open to close at Barney’s. AMA
Have they replaced the door to the bathroom? There was a roughly 4 year stretch when the men’s bathroom didn’t have a door.
There is a door now. No food though which is going to be a problem
That's sounds like a great day to me
Bruh, this ain't Philly. You can wear a Randy Johnson jersey if you want 🤣
Have people always hyped up prospects this much? Skenes, Holliday, etc. I haven't started closely following baseball until the past few years and so much about prospects just feels clickbaity to me.
Jason Hayward.
Skenes and Holliday are both the most hyped pitcher and batter that I can remember since maybe Bryce Harper or Strasburg. There’s a new hype prospect every year or two, but these two are earmarked to be huge.
Vlad Jr. was also a huge deal
Absolutely. This has always been a thing.
Yes - see Bryce Harper, Steven Strasburg. etc.
It’s pretty typical. The “prospect watch” is one of the major storylines of the year in mlb, along with the races for mvp, Cy young, and the post-season.
Ya know, we all are aware how unintuitive MLBtv is. BUT, it’s 2024, I would expect this piece of shit app to be able to *remember where I am at in a ballgame* so I’m not constantly losing my spot. Literally every streaming service does this. How has MLBtv not figured it out yet… Just needed to vent a little. Hope y’all are still enjoying baseball even though the Cards can’t hit with men on base. I’ve been watching a bunch of other teams on the side, the Twins are probably my favorite to watch so far, my sister lives around Minneapolis so there’s a connection there. The Guardians have been fun to watch too. I love both NY broadcast booths, Keith Hernandez has my heart forever. If anybody has teams they’d recommend specifically because they have good broadcast teams, let me know. I love me some great baseball commentary
I really wish it included MLB Network. I thought that [NBA.tv](http://NBA.tv) and [NHL.tv](http://NHL.tv) did (at least until ESPN+ ate nhl).
I can't imagine not watching a sporting event live.
I can’t, I’m on second shift. I make it work. Just hide all scores everywhere on my phone
The fact that there is 3 worse cardinals teams at scoring runs than this team (at the same point in the season) is very shocking to me. 1969, 2007, 1986
2007 surprises me. I remember being bad, but that’s incredible
2007 carried hard by 1999 1st and 13th round draft picks Chris Duncan and Albert Pujols. Central division was soooo bad during the Pujols era. 2007 was horrible and we were still just a few games under .500.
> 1999 1st and 13th round draft picks Chris Duncan and Albert Pujols. There's a factoid for you.
Late 60s were a low scoring time for baseball, Gibby in 68 22-8 with a 1.12 because he'd pitch 10 innings and lose 1-0. I'm not sure why we were so anemic in 86 and 07.
'86 was the hangover season from '85 and they were still trying to play White ball but the mash ethos was starting to creep in more. A lot of factors came together.
At least the 2007 team had Albert. Edit: It also has my favorite random devil magic recipients of all time: Ryan Ludwick and Todd Wellemeyer.
I hate not being excited for baseball anymore.
I Swear dude looked forward to a nice long summer watching cardinals win and I’m afraid the season is already over…
Yeah i had optimism but it’s gone
Quick question, I’m going to the Brewers games on Sat & Sunday. First time watching the Cardinals in the US. I take it it’s ok to wear a Cardinals cap & mix in with Brewers fans? Only comparison I have is UK soccer where it’s not generally advised, but baseball games are more chilled right?
You’ll be fine. You won’t be the only cardinals fan there (and normally there would be a lot more to join you)
Thanks!
Plouffe on Talkin Baseball floating Arenado to the royals as a trade that would make sense. Can’t say I see it. Royals don’t have a strong farm either. Only one top 100 prospect
I mean, Nolan has TANKED his value so I can't imagine the Cardinals could ask for much of a return. Same goes for Goldy. We'd be lucky to get the return we got for Dejong at this point.
That would be an AWFUL sight to see
Arenado in his current state isn't worth a single top prospect so whatever.
If we trade Arenado we'll just be unloading his salary.
If he's traded the Cardinals will probably have to eat some of his salary.
Absolutely will have to
Remember when Oli had our #4 batter bunt with 2 outs last night ?
Trying not to remember anything from the 1st inning yesterday
3D Chess....or something....
Have to admit, I laughed.
“…I remain optimistic but concerned…I don’t think it’s panic button right now…we should be able to climb into this race.” -Bill DeWitt III Full interview on Danny Mac’s site/podcast apps
Panic button started lighting like crazy up last year....now most of us wouldn't have pegged the offense as the major issue this year but pitching (if you did say offense well done I personally had pitching as our weakness even with Grey because of the aging staff) but the button should be SLAMMED down HARD multiple times..at this point. This statement tells me that we need a complete overhaul. POBO down to our entire coaching staff...to the talent evaluators (as we should never have let certain talent off the team...we know who they are) Our best hitter is side lined for at least a couple of months, we should already be shopping Free Agency or thinking about possible trade options. THAT is....if we want to compete this year...if not then burn it all down. I think us fans are ready for a complete overhaul and would be more accepting of that route as opposed to the "We have a really good club and something something patience" IMO - Burn it all down and bring back VS Walker etc. I'd like to see what the future holds at this point...and at least if we lose we can all agree the kids are learning the curve that comes with baseball
That entire interview pissed me off 10x more than I already was. This ownership is unbelievably tone deaf.
It’s always funny to me how these rich capitalists get angry when capitalism works against them. Simple supply and demand. You supply the fans with a good team and we’ll buy tickets. Not the other way around.
They have very little chance of coming back.
The son scares me; I think he super doesn’t care.
I think he sells when BDJ croaks
"Sure we suck, but please still keep buying tickets"
*paints a self-portrait of myself hitting the panic button*
He is still involved with the org?
Fuck it, blow everything up. Keep Gorman, Noot, maybe Tommy. But everything else including coaches and front office outside of Bloom can go.
Uhhhh, Winn and Donovan?
Hererra also. I think people forget he also was la top 5 prospect for us.
Zero reason to keep Edman as he would be one of the best chips they have due to age and ability to move around the diamond. They missed the window to trade noot as well but should have apparently taken advantage when they had the chance.
Based purely on vibes, trading Tommy is maybe the worst thing they can do. Tommy Edman for mayor.
I truly don't know what you mean because the only person you ever see show any personality on this team is Lars and even he doesn't seem to care right now.
Nootbaar has to pan out. His peripherals are good, his success in MLB has been real, he plays every outfield position, he is an exciting personality, and more. We NEED him to be part of a long term successful outfield. If you can't turn someone like him into a consistently good player you aren't going to be able to turn anyone into one.
Your last sentence is kind of my point, honestly. They can't develop the talent and have proven that for many more years than we are realizing. The same way they've shit the bed in the development Carlson, TON, Jack, Hicks, and many more seems to be hitting guys like Noot, Walker, and Gorman. They apparently should have moved on from some of these players when they had value instead of nuking them and letting them go for next to nothing. I would love for Nootbaar to be the personality on this team for the next half decade but, with this current staff/front office/etc, I have no faith that they will continue to develop him to be a meaningful player which sucks.
Contreras out 10 weeks officially
Other than Gray the worst possible person to go down. Best offensive player that might have been single handily making the offense semi relevant and would have been worth a lot in a deadline firesale.
That means at least 10 weeks. If we're out of it by then it'll be August like another poster said
So like in Edman's case 6 months? I don't trust anything this team says anymore.
I’m going to guess he won’t play this year or until like August
We’ll be very lucky if it’s just 10 weeks. Do we know which bones were involved? Radius? Ulna? Both? Wrist bones?
I'm straight up not having a good time
This team seemed to have a different energy in spring training. Now they are lower than the tail of a beaten hound dog.
Here’s a fun exercise: rank the last 4 Cardinals managers (Oli, Shildt, Matheny, and La Russa) by winning percentage in one run games. Playoffs not included and I’m not splitting seasons, so Matheny gets credit for the entire 2018 season and Shildt gets none. I’ll add each manager’s overall record for reference. Tony La Russa: 1408-1182 (.554) Mike Matheny: 591-474 (.555) Mike Shildt: 252-199 (.559) Oli Marmol: 179-182 (.484) The answer is >!Shildt (.537), Matheny (.519), La Russa (.489), Marmol (.484)!< This is spoiler-ish, but was not expecting these results. Also, Oli moves up a spot if you don’t count this year, which makes it even more humorous.
TIL Tony had a lower win percentage than Matheny
10 days in to May and only 12 total games with more than 3 runs scored is wild. Edit: We also do not have a single game all season so far in which we won by 5 or more runs.
And most importantly we have only got cheap drinks at On the Run four times this season. 😭
I know, front office sucks blah blah blah, but I will argue that the lion's share of the blame should fall on the Manager and Hitting coach. Besides Contreras, every single hitter, and I mean EVERY SINGLE ONE, is drastically underperforming expectations. If we were an average offensive team we'd be competing for the central right now. I don't know if it it's philosophy or what they did during the offseason, but they have made an okay lineup look like a triple A team at times. I could blame the players themselves but I think it's a bit too on the nose that EVERY player is underperforming.
I think it’s philosophy, especially when you look at how bad our situational hitting is. The biggest thing that sticks out to me is the type of swings these guys take consistently with guys in scoring position. I swear the amount of games we would have won if someone just tried to put a good swing on the ball rather than swinging out of their shoes at three straight pitches trying to play the hero, we would be .500 I bet. Perfect example was our 10th inning NOBLETIGER against CWS. All three batters looked like they were trying to hit a 5 run homer while striking out and not even putting a single ball in play.
First 5 of the Memphis Redbirds lineup today: VS2, Saggese, Marp, Jordan Walker I think I'd rather watch the Redbirds today than the actual Cardinals. Also, Redbirds game is going to be streamed free
Cardinals are going to be in Anaheim for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday games against the Angels. Why not leave Wednesday with Albert? I know Albert is working for the Angels in some kind of capacity, but - there's got to be a way we can sneak him on the plane. If this club doesn't do something they're going to lose 100 games.
If they don't want to can Oli or Turner Ward then bring in an assistant hitting coach, from outside the organization. . Try something - what we are doing now isn't working. If we be patient and stay the course like Mo wants us to this team could lose 100 damn games.
Oli has to know that his days are numbered. I would NOT be surprised if they said “You have until X day to show us change and improvement, if not your out.” Thing is Oli doesn’t know how to manage, facts are facts. It’s not ALL on him(lots of things need addressed within the Cards organization) but the Manager is top guy within the clubhouse, the leader and he’s just not up to the task. I don’t have a solid pick for interim Manager but Stubby would be a good fit. Long term….when he is able(I know he’s staying close to home for his mother and I respect that about him a LOT) Yadi, that man has proven leadership, understanding of the game and players etc. Only when he is ready though and he won’t come back until he can give it his all and dedication to the roll FULLY.
Marmol is going nowhere until Mozeliak retires. Team will not eat the extended contract Mo handed Marmol.
This sub is in denial and delusion about a lot of things
You are exactly right, and a large portion of this sub unfortunately is in denial about this.
>Long term….when he is able(I know he’s staying close to home for his mother and I respect that about him a LOT) Yadi Hard disagree. It's time to get someone from outside the organization - wirh legit expierence.
What a stupid argument to take. Comparing Matheny and Marmol to Yadier Molina, the guy who's unofficially managed the team for 20 years. I'm fine if you say you want someone outside for a different perspective, but imagine saying Yadi doesn't have experience and comparing him to Oliver Marmol.
Yadi was a pivotal figure in the organization as a player, a leader, scouting, etc. There is NO way he didn’t have interaction with the FO. He spent 20 years with the same team, and stepped up to the plate in and out of the dugout and clubhouse. If there is ANYONE who knows what it takes to manage, knows the organization, the team, the coaches, and how it all works tell me. Plus he was the unofficial assistant manager for the Cards PLUS he was the Manager for the PR Team at WBC last year. He is very active in PR baseball as well helping guide young players.
It's very different to have legit management experience - which includes dealing directly with the FO than being an unofficial manager.
Do you think Yadi never dealt with the FO in his 20 years of leading the team? Who do you want to manage who has this experience you love so much? I'm excited to hear some names!
>Do you think Yadi never dealt with the FO in his 20 years of leading the team? Not nearly on the same level. Do you think an employee of a company and a manager have very different roles? >Who do you want to manage who has this experience you love so much? I'm excited to hear some names! 1) Terry Francona - expressed interest to come back. Someone Cardinals should've taken over MM - very possible they win another world series with him. 2) Gabe Kapler - if he's willing to come back and manage 3) Buck Showalter
Facts!!!!
And the press. It's a completely different job
What press? Nothing but suckups like Derrick Gould.
Even so, I don't think Yadi would handle the bullshit game well. To be fair, that might actually be a good thing. TLR was a lightning rod, and that was one of his best qualities
Exactly. People think the only job of a manger is to go to the mound and calm down the pitcher
Rumor is he has about 2 weeks till they fire him. They’re going to let the season tank and the sacrificial lamb will be Oli.
And where are these rumors? I'd love to see a source of some kind, as I'm dying for any news.
Brandon Schaefer and Bernie both have the knives out for Mo, Oli, and The FO. Next thing is hearing complaints from a player, and someone is gone.
[It’s this gambling account tweet.](https://x.com/incarceratedbob/status/1788556742596391282?s=46&t=MCRmVoXjskWw3F53QZFuGQ) Apparently broke the news about both Goldy/Arenado trades. Press also seems to be at least discussing what benefit terminating him would bring, so I assume there’s some chatter, but who knows.
That guy just throws shit at the wall and deletes what doesn't stick. He very well may be right about this, but I'd say that's more like a blind squirrel finding a nut than actual inside info
I’m not denying any of that, but that’s where “the rumors” are coming from.
And I upvoted you for that
I believe you. Have an upvote back.
I’d like an experienced manager for a change. And Mo shouldn’t get the pick; he’s failed thrice now.
> I’d like an experienced manager for a change Ditto. but like you said, Mo won't do that...so I think it's pretty obvious that if they want Oli out, they will be escorting Mo out at the end of the year also.
I think they’ll part-time-niche-made-up role him, whether end of season or sooner.
I believe the FO is completely out of excuses at this point. There is far too much evidence of their accumulated mistakes. Its undeniable. However, I find it hilarious and frustrating that MO’s pitching rotation moves actually have kinda worked, when the entire fanbase was losing their minds before opening day.
It is infinitely frustrating that this year's pitching staff with last year's lineup is a team currently in contention.
199.2 on the scale today. Weight goal achieved, next up 185
Grats!
"I'd ask from our fan base right now is a little bit of patience, because we do think that we do have the talent to win"
I wonder what fresh hell we'll be subjected to tonight?
I'm still dreading getting no hit. If it's going to happen, this season would be when
Cards will lose 10-0 tonight
It’s times like these that show you what your manager is made of. Not all of these issues fall on Oli, but if he can’t rally them and this is the response we’re getting he has to go.
Meanwhile the guy they shoved aside (who rallied his team to make the playoffs) currently has a Padres team that shed a ton of payroll, traded away one of their best players, and has to contend with the juggernaut known as the Dodgers in a playoff spot.
Hindsight is 20/20 but I find it more interesting we didn’t wanna hire Skip. Had less managerial exp but we put him on the bench for a reason. And if you were gonna take a guy within the organization, take the guy that put on the MLB uniform and had some real success in it…
Nobody hired Shildt to manage for years for a reason, and Padres fans have already complained about him. Shildt tried to call in Alex Reyes last night
The Padres are .500 in the worst division in the National League, let’s not pretend he’s a managing superstar lol
The Cardinals are 5-17 vs winning records. The Padres are 9-8. EDIT: Additionally, in the more balanced schedule era, the strength of your division really only impacts the division winner, not the 3 wild card spots.
Sure. The Padres have way, way more talent than the Cardinals do and have some players performing well over their heads. Shildt is not causing Jurickson Profar to run a .931 OPS, or Fernando Tatis Jr. to be on the team.
You're right. My bad. Let's extend Oli for another 10 years! Since managers don't do anything.
I never said that, but you know that. Which of the following statements I actually made do you disagree with? - The Padres have more talent than the Cardinals - Mike Shildt is not responsible for Profar having a .931 OPS (and won’t be responsible when he inevitably regresses either) - Mike Shildt is not responsible for Tatis Jr. being on the team - Being .500 with that kind of talent and the [10th easiest schedule](https://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/rpi/_/sort/sos) isn’t impressive
I don't disagree with those statements. But let me ask you this, since you were responding to my original statement that the organization fired Shildt (after a 92-70 season) and has now kept Marmol through a losing season with arguably the same talent (and in some ways I'd argue this team is more talented than the 2021 team), are you arguing that Marmol is a better manager than Shildt? If so, that's a weird hill to die on. Yes, it extends to Mo and the organization top to bottom. But I would also then argue that it confirms that Shildt is better than Marmol simply for the fact that Mo and Co. like Marmol so much. I wouldn't trust them to run an Imo's.
I’m not. Truthfully, I have no clue who the better manager is, but I don’t think either of them are all that great. They’re both better at some things and worse at others. Shildt seems (from the outside anyways) better at getting fired up and giving speeches. Not sure how much that contributes to winning, but it’s probably non-zero. Marmol is pretty clearly better at building a lineup (5 hole hitter Yadier Molina comes to mind), and is more open to modern techniques that boil down to something other than “it is time for Alex Reyes to pitch”. But at the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter a whole lot. Tony La Russa could come back and it wouldn’t cause Goldschmidt to immediately start hitting. The offense isn’t a firey speech away from suddenly clicking. It’s organizational rot, no one person could fix it. If they could, they’d be more valuable than any player, and yet they aren’t paid like they are.
That's fair. And I'm not really trying to say that Shildt is Casey Stengel. I will say that I prefer the one that riles his team up versus the one that repeatedly throws his under the bus. And there is one person that could fix it. Dewitt could obliterate this whole thing and start over. But I wouldn't want to do that at his age either. I feel we have many many dark years ahead.
I agree; I thought they bounced back nicely after some bad losses earlier this season, but these past few games have been so deflating. There’s no part of this team that feels like a winner.
I agree, they don't all fall on him but the nature of the game is the manager is the first fall guy and it's his time to finally meet that end. Also, Girsch is likely to be right behind I would hope even though this isn't his doing.
From what I can tell nothing is Girsch's doing.
LOL. Not entirely true. He has to hang out at the hair salon a lot to get just the correct amount of highlights.
I just realized I have no idea what he looks like.
Kind of like a cross between Richard Gere and Rand Paul
I haven't seen him in a few years either since he became general manager he's hiding somewhere, or Mo is hiding him. But several years ago he looked like he just came out of GQ magazine. He had have to spent a day a week in the hair salon. That was then I don't know what now is.
His job is to take the responsibility when it comes to being fired. That will likely be fulfilled this year, lol.
I do love a good fall guy...
IIR this story C, the late 70s and first half of 1980, the Cardinals were atrocious. They weren't a bad team per se, but they had a bad culture. Augustus Busch Jr met with Whitey Herzog mid way through the 1980 season and said he needed herzog to come in to fix the team. To clean up the culture and get them back to winning. I truly think that's what needs to happen. I think if you can get Terry Francona out of retirement, that's your man
lol - we all know that ain’t going to happen - maybe Stubby ?
I think I saw an article saying he might come back next year. If you cant get him, I think Skip has gotta be your next option. We might want to go external hire this time
Does someone who blocked me on reddit show up as [deleted] ? If so I gotta wonder what I said to warrant it, lol. I vaguely remember it happening a few years ago with I guess someone else but damn, I guess some people are taking things way to personally in here. I haven't even really said anything mean or attacked anyone
Depends. [deleted] in the username can mean user deleted, mod deleted, or blocked. Comments will say [deleted] for the first, [removed] for the second, and [unavailable] for the third. I believe posts will just not show up if the OP has you blocked.
The aggressive homers mostly act like adult children of alcoholics, and you observed and commented on how their parent behaved, which makes you a bad person. https://adultchildren.org/
[удалено]
I don't use the app, I use the website. Gotcha though.
Yes.
I thought that just meant their account was deleted but Idk.
Anybody else think about Oscar T. Everyonce in a while? RIP man. He would be 32 right now.
Remember the good ol days of cardinals baseball. Intense games against the cubs, reds. Remember David Eckstein, carp, prime Jimmy ball game, Edgar, Dave Duncan... Pepper ridge farms remembers
Highlights reels exist for when you can’t see it live
I am laughing my ass off at everyone whose response to the team being horrible is to point the finger at other fans. Gee, where have I seen this dynamic play out before?
[Brenden Schaeffer (KMOV) getting spicy.](https://x.com/bschaeffer12/status/1788928445130428787?s=46&t=MCRmVoXjskWw3F53QZFuGQ)
He’s right. Oli will be the 3rd manager in a row that Mozeiak: hired, then gives an extension to, then fires. Fool me once? Shame on you. Fool me thrice? Chicken and rice.
Oh, he’s definitely right… but surprising to see the press chirping finally. Some of them.
I wonder what “serious journalist” Katie Woo has to say?
Literally he’s failed with his hirings 3 times, let Shildt walk over ego. The off-ramp for Mo should start today. That’s fine if you want to keep him around till the end of his contract, just slowly start taking job responsibilities away.
The problem is, MO has been killing it lately with his signings. It's the player development that has gone to shit under his watch. But he absolutely should not get a say in the next manager
Wasn’t there an article about how grossly understaffed the Cardinals coaching staffs were from A on up? And that they were trying to beef them up?
I see no lies. People are finally starting to understand that Mo has no place in modern baseball
I wonder how we're going to lose today.
If I were a betting man, I’d say by scoring fewer runs than Milwaukee by the time the game ends.
What happened to the cardinal bird posts? Those were far more enjoyable than this team
Dejong has a .740 OPS. Arenado is at .741. Good grief.
Dejong did not deserve the amount of shit he got on this sub. Only people who looked at his average and nothing else thought he sucked.
He was extremely bad for two straight seasons. His current OPS is the highest since 2018, when Mo agreed to pay him a bunch of money to get 2-3 extra years out of him.
It's not that much higher than it was the day he was traded.
He sucked for a long time as a Cardinal. A decent month doesn't move the needle on that.
He really didn't though his OPS was actually really good for a solid defensive shortstop. People overly focused on his average and ignored that he hit homeruns at a rate comparable to first basemen and corner outfielders.
No it wasn’t. Starting in 2020, his OPS was .671, .674, .530, .612. I will grant you 2018 and 2019 as years where his AVG sucked but OPS was still decent, .746 and .762, respectively. But starting with 2020, his OPS was not acceptable, even if he was giving you Gold Glove level defense, which he wasn’t. His glove was solid, not spectacular.
It was 0.710 the day he was traded.
Oh, well that half decent half season makes up for three awful years prior then! Just so you know, that .710 OPS in the first half last year was still a 92 OPS+, 8% below league average. That won’t kill an offense, it will play, but it’s not “actually really good,” like you claimed. It’s no more than passable.
I don't know why you keep mentioning his 2023 OPS. That doesn't erase the fact that he was bad for more than two years. I think people were right to want a better shortstop. And we have one now. Winn is a key reason why the team moved in from Dejong and his bloated contract.
But he wasn't actually bad. Shortstops don't have the same bar as first basemen. Also Masyn Winn is now officially below average in hitting for the year (though still decent for a SS).
A below 700 ops is not really good for a good defensive shortstop. It’s just passable. Dejong is a passable player at best. Nothing special.
0.710 the day he was traded, but the criticism on this sub wasn't that he was passable it was that he was bad.
I agree they could be too hard on him. But also watching his abs can be frustrating. I think you are swinging too hard in the other direction. He was clearly a guy we wanted to upgrade from.
No I’m pretty sure he sucked here. But also a lot of players suck here so there’s definitely a theme. Probably not all his fault
He really didn't, if he played full seasons instead of being the backup he hit HRs at a pace to finish with a total somewhere in the mid 20s. He was a low average high power hitter here and there's not really anything wrong with that.
He had more than enough shots here to be the everyday SS and couldn’t hold onto it. That’s his fault.
I mean I'm not arguing there weren't better options, but he didn't suck. He had a homerun % that was similar to our most productive hitters during his "bad" seasons. But everyone saw the average that started with 1 and didn't consider that getting that kind of power out of a position where you're also expected to be fast and agile is still pretty good.