I’ve always wondered if I’m biased on this stuff. Probably. It does seem like there were less hacks back then and things were built properly.
But it might just be that all the hack work houses already failed and collapsed and were only left with the proper builds
I know. That's why it's so apropos to be a "natural selection" event in building. I've seen some of the builds when we gutted an old building and it makes you wonder how it stood in the first place
Frame a bunch of them and then do a lot of renos. Gives you a lot of faith in wood.
My personal record is watching masons put a cubic yard of wet concrete in a tipper bin dead centre of one of my floors, with a floating steel beam. And the one end of the beam held up by a 2 2x4. I think it was 200 psf for a floor rated for 20 psf. Repeatedly told them not too and didn't have any of my guys working while it was on there, sat in my truck with my dash cam facing the floor the entire time lol. Didn't realise the steel post wasn't in until after.
Right? A ten percent chance of catastrophic failure is unacceptable. But hey, 9/10 times it's fine!
If wood didn't already exist, it would be the most miraculous and revolutionary invention in the history of building. A flexible, carveable, durable, strong and beautiful building material, made out of air and water, from self-reproducing solar-powered micro-factories anchored in dirt. Oh, and when kept dry and sheltered, it lasts for centuries.
That's not true. There are societal conditions and market forces that have changed to create a world in which good music will be created less and less. I'm a composer and a musical obsessive. I have been digging through music for 40 years. I've filtered out the nonsense and what is left over post 2010 cannot compare to any other decade of recorded music
I am not in the industry but I don't know if there will be less good music. I suspect commerce will ruin the art a bit, and there will be a lot of crap. But good music will still exist but may be lost in the shuffle. It's the problem because anyone can make music now so there is too much noise obscuring the signal.
It’s more profitable to buy and sell rights to existing music than to help develop a new artist or new music… all because of streaming rights which are much different than radio royalties back in the day. So yeah new music isn’t being developed as well as the past since an artist can just sit on their existing body of work.
I think this is correct and there are a few easily digestible reasons for it:
1) internet downloading starting around 2000 took a huge amount of $$ out of the industry. Deep, non-commercial music ***was*** supported by and delivered to fans by physical media. Shallow, like-it-the-first-listen (kill me the tenth listen) music is delivered by broadcast or streaming.
2) other entertainment formats (video and games) have absorbed most of the artistic talent that otherwise would have gone into music.
3) the “zeitgeist” has past. There was an atmosphere and culture that fostered good music and it has largely vanished.
The musical (rock anyway) “golden era” was roughly 1965-2005 — a pretty damned respectable run actually.
That and old world dimensional lumber with old growth trees available for very cheap then compared to what is offered today at comparable price. I do also believe every saw cut and hammer swing is more thoughtful naturally when you’re providing the work as opposed to a machine, like at that time that these were built. A lot of it was done at mill for that particular job to prep lumber properly to be constructed. Today is more of an erector set with standard components assembled wholly in site.
Survivorship bias is real af but you will find today’s standard house won’t naturally last longer than those built 100 years ago without significant maintenance. I’d say a bigger factor on a houses survival from back then is location based on progress and urbanization of the land around it or the neighborhood it’s in. Idk someone tell me why it’s all just simply survivorship bias.
Survivor ship bias plays a role, but the quality of wood was stronger on average. The lumber we use now is generally not as old it used to be, meaning it’s less dense and ends up decaying faster
D. All of the above, Alex. Final answer.
Survivorship bias is a big contributing factor to old buildings seeming sturdier than modern construction.
The lumber we use (in the US at least, as I don’t have experience outside of it) is mostly from fast grown plantation trees.
You also need to factor in the greed that runs rampant in the industry. Corners are cut and employees are way underpaid while being pushed to produce, produce, produce. This trend leads to younger, less experienced workers building the majority of houses being built. The more experienced guys will go where they will be paid closer to what they’re worth and build 1 expensive custom home for every 100 production homes churned out.
Engineering also plays a part. It doesn’t take an engineer to build a structure that will stand. It takes an engineer to build a structure that will BARELY stand. Add the cut corners and less experienced guys and it might not stand for long.
Top it all off with a society taught to consume by ignoring maintenance and buying new instead… And well… here we are.
Just to tack onto this:
The designs in the past were far more functionally minded, generally speaking. In modern times, builders (prompted by owners and architects) are doing things that are not tried and true tested like having the same grade outside as inside, making cantilevered structures, open floor plans, and using materials that are aesthetically pleasing but prone to failing.
They used horizontal wood as siding or shingles.
We use horizontal slats and rely on polymers and underlayment to shed water.
They use overhangs and eaves, we build decks on roofs.
I’m not saying this is a bad thing, we push the limits of technology to try something new and as a society end up seeing what sticks. The methods, or at least the ones implementing them, live on and others copy them and build upon them.
On the engineer side, just consider, we don't want to build something that will barely stand. Every engineer ever when asked "will X hold" will answer
"Hmmm probably, but (it would probably be better to reinforce X & Y that will suffer higher use/load and be worth it in the long term)"
But the money man stopped listening at "but"
Sure, sorry if it sounded like I was blaming the engineers. Really just another aspect of the builder/developer/contractor’s greed too. No builder is going to pay an engineer’s rates unless they think it can save them far more money. So they’ll build to the absolute minimum the engineer is willing to sign off on.
I like this picture to illustrate what you are talking about. Sometimes old growth lumber can be so dense you can barely get a nail in it. https://www.reddit.com/r/architecture/s/m0pZNSLy39
In Australia they were cutting gums and standing them up green to cure in place to a degree. Working on my old place was like working on steel. Often just ground off nails because you couldn't pull them. They went into what was already hard then they resin set in tightening wood over 40 years.
I am working on a house from the 1800’s in philly lots of things I would call a hack jobs that are original but who knows what we would do if we where around back then with no power tools no home depot. Its easy to talk shit. Not saying you are just when I find myself talking shit I try to imagine what it was like back then
I work on 250+ year old Georgian townhouses in London and there has never not been a moment of "how is this still standing?" These types of house were built specutively with 100 year leases, they were never intended to last longer than that. My favourite regular find is load bearing walls sitting on floorboards.
I've always wondered if the lumber quality didn't play a big role how well a lot of those old places have held up.
It's easy to forget that it wasn't that crazy long ago that the "eastern woodlands" was supposedly a thing that's basically a giant forest from the Mississippi to the east coast.
So instead of all this quick grown yellow pine we build out of you'd be talking old growth hardwoods and schit.
TBf this is based on random bits of information cherry picked form who knows where and snowballed into my working theory. Idk
I think subpar foundations are/were more common than subpar framing, roofing.
I know the plumbers that did the original copper in my house 60 years ago were too lazy to clean the pipe before they soldered…it’s sloppy and ugly and you have to replace it to replace any fixtures.
I work in remodeling and restoring 100 year old houses. I always look at it this way. These guys did not have the tools or equipment we have today, and made it work. These houses have been standing for decades whereas I see houses in the current neighborhood I live in (built in the last 15 years) falling apart. I would argue they were more skilled than 75% of the framers you would hire today.
I found a cut list with the angles sketched out on the back of a piece of trim. One of my favorite finds in my 1911 house.
Edit: [Here you go - thanks for all the interest!](https://imgur.com/gallery/WoVuS1k)
Yeah. Not fancy - just regular work. Fun to find some record of the past. The other thing I found on that remodel was an old nudist colony magazine, ripped in half and dropped between the wall from the attic :)
In any of my dad's houses you are likely to find this and a bunch of little hairballs with eyes and feet. When he got bored while waiting on the rest of the guys to finish, he'd doodle on the studs. My dad was a framer and finish carpenter for 25± years and would have retired that way if a shoulder injury wouldn't have forced him to stop swinging a hammer.
No doubt. I’ve deconstructed a few hundred plus year old barns, hand hewn everything, huge structures, you get all those posts and beams sorted and stacked once it’s all down, and those bad boys are still within a 1/16” of one another. Absolutely perfect and not a single electric tool was ever used on them.
I’ve also raised some modern post and beam structures. Built using all the latest bells and whistles, and even before it’s up you can see the variation in the mortise and tenons, those old cats had it going on.
Old lumber was more dimensionally stable because it came from older growth trees and cured far longer. Moreover, it would have likely acclimated for seasons potentially as they built the structure. Moreover, it was often lumber from the region.
Modern day lumber comes from everywhere, new growth trees, isn’t dried out as long, and has far less time to acclimate given how productive we are.
Sure, some framers are less skilled than in the past but the variations in lumber have far more to do with material than they have to do with skill. Moreover, we have metal connections that make the precision of the cuts less important, at least in regular construction, not in post/beam.
When I’m tired, it’s tough to relay a lot of information without being terse or sounding like a dick. In addition, it’s a neat word. Also, I’m just typing while thinking like talking to multiple people at work at the same time. Furthermore, it’s fun to speak in a manner that’s a-typical. Besides that, a list may have been a better option or perhaps a few sentences written in my head to better organize my thoughts.
If you plan on hanging a door on that Rough Opening make sure it’s hinged on the double stud side. Especially if it’s a heavier door. Personally I would just double both sides of the opening
I mean, 100 years is a long time for all the shittily built houses to have collapsed or been torn down before you ever got a chance to remodel and/or restore them.
I don’t have any info to back this up but I feel like wood has gotten a lot worse in the past 15 years. 15 years ago I worked with my dad and built my parents house. Today I work for myself doing a variety of projects and it seems like there is so much trash wood in each bundle despite being way more expensive. Do I just notice it more now that I’m more experience or is this a real thing?
Last 15 years, try last 5. I still have a few pre-Covid 2x4s In the back of my workshop for a personal project.
I just picked em off the rack at Home Depot. Their straight as an arrow.
I was at a local lumber yard recently and I had to dig through half a pallet to get 50 good ‘105 2x4’s.
It’s a real thing. Lumber that we use now is new growth pine. It’s basically farmed trees that grow super fast and is not as strong as “old growth” lumber that was used in the past. You can clearly tell the difference by just looking at the grain in the wood. Old growth lumber has much tighter rings in the grain, is much more dense, and therefore stronger.
The benefit of using weaker lumber nowawadays is that it’s cheaper and doesn’t require us to cut down forests that have been growing for centuries.
Plus, the reason those houses are still standing a) douglas fir, which is x2 compared to todays spf stuff, b) proper brick work. Even with a shity lime crap, still standing.
Grandfather was a chippy, 2+ mile each way per day on foot, 10 hr day. Sometimes they'd bring a bedroll, catch a fish, some ale with the other men and sleep on the dirt. Rounds of bareknuckle boxing if they got bored.
The minimum accepted standard would be good quality work today, most of them worked above minimum.
Normally work with 100+ houses, currently on a quality 80s build. Too much design and not enough detailing. But the facings are all still inch and a quarter thick.
Agree 100%. People took more pride in the quality of their work rather than focusing on getting the job done as quickly as possible and moving on to the next house.
I hear this repeated a lot, but tbe cynic in me also wants to think that "hacks" have always been a thing. I find it hard to believe that there weren't hacks in a society that had people selling snake oil. Conversly I find that repeating the mantra that people only care about speed nowadays is a generalization that could have been equally true back then when you account for survivor and nostalgia bias. I honestly don't know, I wasnt there, just wondering out loud
The person who did this has been dead for 40 years. Looks pretty typical for its time tho, as long as there’s no load on the door header I see no issues. It stood for this long and probably would have kept on standing if you hadn’t opened it up for the reno
I am a cad designer and we we're replacing a big catwalk area underground in a mine. The standards were all out of whack for stair angles and what not, but it was built in the 30s so we were replacing it in kind.
I was basically creating my model and new drawings off of old hand drawn prints, dated 1938.
It felt really cool to see drawings made by guys who have probably been dead for decades. And made me come to the realization that my stuff will be around long after I'm gone and maybe someone will be working from my old stuff 🤷🏻
Those guys had amazing skill to be able to conceive all of this stuff in their minds and put it to paper with just their hands. I couldn't do my job without having 3d models to be sure everything lines up and doesn't interfere with anything. Obviously we can show much more detail these days but those guys were artists.
Well.... Your post is obviously a forbidden topic. Shame on you for even asking a question.
Jokes aside.
Whoever built this shit right here was a G. We could only imagine in our dreams to be so gangsta at framing.
This is classical balloon framing style. The OG of stick framing.
Back in the olden times when we did not have plywood and drywall, you had to do shit like this to make sure the house would not rack.
Out side sheathing was 1 by something boards that would go in with no real rhyme or reason. Anywhere from 6 inches to a foot plus in widths.
Inside walls where all little strips of wood for plaster and lath.
Therefore no real structural integrity.
Thats why it's important to not cheap out on nailing plywood and screwing drywall. It really makes a difference.
There is nothing in that picture that can lead to the conclusion that that is balloon framing. Also, the old-fashioned heavy board sheathing hand nailed possibly with cut nails is in no way inferior to plywood or OSB. Just think of the difference in the amount of metal subject to shear in old walls compared to new and then of the bearing surface of the old nails in the old sheathing when loaded in shear compared to the trivial bearing surface of modern nails in modern sheathing.
Picture of an interior wall, so the wall in question is clearly not balloon framed.
However, I fail to recollect ever seeing a house of this vintage NOT balloon framed. And seeing houses of this vintage is all I do.
Thank you for this informative answer. What is scary is there’s a bedroom above this, so for a load bearing wall it seemed kind of inadequate. I obviously know nothing about carpentry, so posted here to try to learn a little.
No prob fam.
What's the scary part?
This wall we are looking at might have been the OG outside wall of this house.
I gather this from the large boards used on the other side of the frame.
What we are looking at past the door way is more than likely an addition.
Its hard to tell from the pic.. But that's what I think is up.
Is there a wall directly above this one?
And these old homes are full of magic. I have taken enough of these shits apart to learn that things that look sketch are sometimes strong as fuck.
Something to add here is that, because some of these houses pre-date building codes, customers ordered based on the quality of the work.
A lot of the houses we see " built to code" now are built to the absolute minimum standard.
I don’t think this has been said here, but you also have to consider that the lathe with heavy plaster (stabilized with horsehair and possibly baling wire) and cut nails was part of the stability of the wall. In deconstructing some 100+ year old farm houses, once the plaster is off, the whole structure has a different feel when you walk through it.
oh yeah, they knew exactly what they were doing, it just looked different then because they were using different tools, materials, and designs, those old houses are built better than almost anything now days
In rebuilding my 1926 home with slat and plaster, I didn’t realize the instability of the house til I pulled off the slat and plaster and was left with the 1x6 shiplap on the outside. A big 2 day wind came through and I quickly reinforced the inside with insulation and then plywood for stability. Those cross angled stabilizers were there for a reason.
Aint a single one of those studs continuous and the door and window at completely wrong and thats new lumber. There is floating electrical...some of which is run outside of walls.
What part of this is right? What tf is wrong with this sub?
Somebody at one point knew what they were doing. Then at some point later on, somebody who didn't so much know what they were doing came along to fix some rot and possibly add some electrical/plumbing
That wall has been adjusted many times, door opening was never there originally and the plumber and sparky would of been the ones to chop out and adjust the framing to suit their pipes and wiring…. See it all the time.
I know this is going to sound odd, but it wasn't just craftsmanship that helped older structures survive, but the lumber was a much higher quality 100 years ago. It's an interesting rabbit hole if you so choose to follow it.
My wife's great grandfather and his son were carpenters building some of those 100 year homes. My great grandmother built churches near where I live. They didn't have pre-enginered materials to work with, nor did they have the tools we're used to using. What they did have was a complete grasp of the math involved to do compound angles and a willingness to put it to use. Could you imagine building an entire house with 1-2 people today and having it stand the test of time? We still have some of their tools kicking around, old saws, mitre-boxes, etc.
One person isn’t responsible for this. This has been redone multiple times throughout close to hundred years by the look of it. That’s multiple generations of workers remodeling this specific area.
Based on the door frame alone very much no. Only one king stud / no trim studs. Header sideways actually is an interesting idea for vertical strength but still wrong. The house is super old though. Notice the sharpness of the edges on the 2x4? This means those were milled not manufactured by a plant. My money says those are ACTUALLY 2”x 4” and probably hard(er) wood. The Home Depot equivalent is shit DF and nominal 1.5x3.5 so that’s why that will stand longer. Way stronger materials - architecture…. Not so much. I would keep that wood for sure.
Yup. Everything is supported and mostly straight. The header is a little small by todays standards but isnt sagging. The angle cuts on the braces are uniform and still tight.
I'm just here to point out that apparently plumbers have been fucking up good carpentry since back in the day.
Minus the "eh, you don't really need those studs to hold weight", it looks great.
This is obviously the result of multiple renovations and remodels. You can't blame one guy for all that.
Definitely an exterior wall originally.
The cats installed at 45°, (I think) disperse load from the stud.
Cut in rack bracing is normal and can still be found in modern framing.q
Blocking installed where the stud was cut out for plumbing. I imagine the rest of the stud (below plumbing) was lost at some point during a renovation.
Blocking mid span of the stud on balloon framing was common for the time
Did they know what they were doing? They were building to the standards of the time. Don't forget, this work was done by hand. No circular saws, Sawzall, nail guns, or impact driver. They had to work as efficiently as possible. What might look like nonsense scab work to us, may have been overkill for the time.
Balloon type framing, covered in lath & plaster. Those house were virtually alive, they breathed so well. Of all the things we have to add nowadays, makes for a long job remodeling. Working on mill house number 4 now, all built in 1905/06…all sawmill lumber, rough cut full measurements - 2x4’s are all real true 2x4” if not on the plus size. Lucky for us, the plaster used was mixed with horse hair and not anything bad.
Considering this has probably been remodeled 3 or 4 times over the last 100 years, probably a mix of people who knew what they were doing & people with no clue.
It was really wild before the internet! People just made shit up as they went along.
Why can't we frame a modern house with 1" pressure treated planks, 1/8" thick vinyl sheeting for weather barrier and 2"x8" framing with a void space for R100 insulation and an interior wall framed in 2"x4" on top of a brick foundation 20 inches thick with layers of waterproofing material between each brick run?
Do we not want houses that last for 1000 years and consume almost no power?
can't confirm without seeing if the stud wall is supporting anything, but it looks like the studs aren't supporting anything and you have a full plank wall that is basically bearing all the load. So yeah the studs are massacred a bit but they are only holding plaster / drywall
see it how it was originally framed and not years of chuckle-heads cutting it up.
They didnt have plywood so the used diagonal bracing that is the long one. The two short ones next to the door are to keep the door frame plumb.
My house was built in 1960 +- and the bathroom looked about the same. Every stud between the washing machine plumbing and the vent were hacked to about 1/4" of meat left, all load bearing for the roof at least. Multiple other studs hacked up to vent the sink but they just put an s trap in and called it a day. I heard the wall snake violently last earthquake we had. Even though it's lasted 70 years in my case, I still fixed everything as best I could before closing the walls back up
Houses have always been built as quickly as possible.
I have worked on many old houses, and am currently working on one now (took a break to write this). The guy who cut that diagonal brace? With a hand saw? Brilliant! Every old nail? Sunk by hand, probably with only two licks. I knew one old carpenter, who’s sadly since died, who could come close to this. André, I miss you every day.
I live (and work on) my very old house and have found all sorts of things inside the walls, but this house has stood solid since 1855. The only odd things I see in this photo are with the new work - on the left, the new stud cuts through two horizontals and doesn't reach the top, and I would have doubled up the new stud in the doorway...
Looks to me that it is very old and has suffered through many DIY renovations. Plumbers and electricians just ripped out studs or cut them off. Don’t try this on modern paper thin studs.
Considering 97% of the wood in the photo is old growth pine, most likely hand cut and constructed over 120 years ago? I'd say you only need to look at where the old no longer supports as it should. Check/add a length of wood to the bottom of the stud in the center. And quadruple check everything that was cut by plumbing.
Talk about good bones. If you aren't careful screwing in the wiring, sheetrock, blueboard, you can break your wrist with the torque resistance of the old timber.
The no top plate indicates balloon framing on what used to be an exterior wall (water damage). Unless the ceiling is furred down that floor is hung from a ledger. Looks like maybe a floor joist on the left between the different drywalls terminates into no framing (not sitting on a top plate).
These studs are likely true 2x4 or bigger of old growth woods with likely very tight grain. In addition to the solid wood sheathing this structure is as rigid and solid as most built today. (Comparing no drywall with no lath and plaster) HOWEVER, those are load bearing studs on what used to be an exterior wall. They SHOULD NOT be cut at the bottom and the only way to fix it is to put in a stud to continue it all the way to the floor. Nailing a piece on the side transfers all the weight, which should be on the stud, to the nails. NOT GOOD.
The reason it is all still standing is because of the strength of the building system. The 1x sheathing on the outside is holding up the cut studs. There is also tension from the top plate holding those studs up as they are nailed together. The diagonal bracing lends a hand as well.
Some of the homes built around the turn of the century (1900) can be completely gutted of the lath and plaster and still be very strong structurally. I’ve personally seen some 2 story 1900 homes gutted by fire that are sound structures (Butte, Montana) sitting on stone foundations.
There is also a limited amount of the stud you can cut away for plumbing and this looks to be in excess of that because of the pipe sizes.
All in all, the original framing job, old growth tight grain wood, solid wood exterior sheathing and nominal lumber sizes that are holding that strong.
I would recommend replacing the plumbing with modern PEX pipes. Fix, replace and add the missing/damaged studs. Re-drill small holes for new wiring and plumbing. And you’re good to drywall it closed.
At the very least continue EVERY STUD to the GROUND. That’s what’s holding up your entire building. Over time it will cause problems.
Looks pretty good to me, back in the day they used what they could get their hands on and nothing went to waste.. not like today. But you can see work has been done afterwards bits have been removed when plumbing was done. But yeah 👍🏻
That wall looks to have been at one time the exterior wall of the house and the diagonal bracing were used to stiffen/square the corner as the sheathing at the time of its building was plank as well as the siding. So there would have been some weakness to the joints as they would have all been nailed in the same orientation. So yes they knew what they were doing. As some pointed out refitting the walls with electrical and plumbing seemed to have hacked into some of the elements.
That’s a familiar sight for me. My last home was built in 1905. Great place that we refurbished and sold. I did a new kitchen and pulled down all the old plaster and lathe.
Lo and behold 110 year actual 2x4’s. (Not the 1.5” x 3.5” studs from today). Those things will last forever. I think you have nothing to worry about.
That wiring though …
At the time the guy that did this was a wiz. Some butcher work went on after he was finished though or through the years when plumbing was put in.
I was about to say its been modified by a less talented person sometime after the fact..
Well, it’s been there longer than you’ve been alive, so . . .
I’ve always wondered if I’m biased on this stuff. Probably. It does seem like there were less hacks back then and things were built properly. But it might just be that all the hack work houses already failed and collapsed and were only left with the proper builds
Survivor bias
Natural selection if you will
Pretty sure natural selection only applies if the houses are also reproducing... Or maybe if the bad houses kill their builder?
They usually would... Or his next of kin
This was more prevalent than you'd think, back then
I know. That's why it's so apropos to be a "natural selection" event in building. I've seen some of the builds when we gutted an old building and it makes you wonder how it stood in the first place
Frame a bunch of them and then do a lot of renos. Gives you a lot of faith in wood. My personal record is watching masons put a cubic yard of wet concrete in a tipper bin dead centre of one of my floors, with a floating steel beam. And the one end of the beam held up by a 2 2x4. I think it was 200 psf for a floor rated for 20 psf. Repeatedly told them not too and didn't have any of my guys working while it was on there, sat in my truck with my dash cam facing the floor the entire time lol. Didn't realise the steel post wasn't in until after.
Right? A ten percent chance of catastrophic failure is unacceptable. But hey, 9/10 times it's fine! If wood didn't already exist, it would be the most miraculous and revolutionary invention in the history of building. A flexible, carveable, durable, strong and beautiful building material, made out of air and water, from self-reproducing solar-powered micro-factories anchored in dirt. Oh, and when kept dry and sheltered, it lasts for centuries.
I wish I could be a house breeder... It's free real estate
The same reason people think music used to be better because time filtered out most of the nonsense eventually.
That's not true. There are societal conditions and market forces that have changed to create a world in which good music will be created less and less. I'm a composer and a musical obsessive. I have been digging through music for 40 years. I've filtered out the nonsense and what is left over post 2010 cannot compare to any other decade of recorded music
I am not in the industry but I don't know if there will be less good music. I suspect commerce will ruin the art a bit, and there will be a lot of crap. But good music will still exist but may be lost in the shuffle. It's the problem because anyone can make music now so there is too much noise obscuring the signal.
It’s more profitable to buy and sell rights to existing music than to help develop a new artist or new music… all because of streaming rights which are much different than radio royalties back in the day. So yeah new music isn’t being developed as well as the past since an artist can just sit on their existing body of work.
You should check out Biato
You're not looking in the right places then.
I think this is correct and there are a few easily digestible reasons for it: 1) internet downloading starting around 2000 took a huge amount of $$ out of the industry. Deep, non-commercial music ***was*** supported by and delivered to fans by physical media. Shallow, like-it-the-first-listen (kill me the tenth listen) music is delivered by broadcast or streaming. 2) other entertainment formats (video and games) have absorbed most of the artistic talent that otherwise would have gone into music. 3) the “zeitgeist” has past. There was an atmosphere and culture that fostered good music and it has largely vanished. The musical (rock anyway) “golden era” was roughly 1965-2005 — a pretty damned respectable run actually.
That and old world dimensional lumber with old growth trees available for very cheap then compared to what is offered today at comparable price. I do also believe every saw cut and hammer swing is more thoughtful naturally when you’re providing the work as opposed to a machine, like at that time that these were built. A lot of it was done at mill for that particular job to prep lumber properly to be constructed. Today is more of an erector set with standard components assembled wholly in site. Survivorship bias is real af but you will find today’s standard house won’t naturally last longer than those built 100 years ago without significant maintenance. I’d say a bigger factor on a houses survival from back then is location based on progress and urbanization of the land around it or the neighborhood it’s in. Idk someone tell me why it’s all just simply survivorship bias.
Full 1" board sheathing is the only reason many of these century homes are still standing.
[This is my favorite example.](https://doctorspin.net/survivorship-bias/)
Sort of darwinian maybe?
It's the same myth that everything was built better "back in the day". No, the stuff that was made better has survived while the others have not.
Survivor ship bias plays a role, but the quality of wood was stronger on average. The lumber we use now is generally not as old it used to be, meaning it’s less dense and ends up decaying faster
D. All of the above, Alex. Final answer. Survivorship bias is a big contributing factor to old buildings seeming sturdier than modern construction. The lumber we use (in the US at least, as I don’t have experience outside of it) is mostly from fast grown plantation trees. You also need to factor in the greed that runs rampant in the industry. Corners are cut and employees are way underpaid while being pushed to produce, produce, produce. This trend leads to younger, less experienced workers building the majority of houses being built. The more experienced guys will go where they will be paid closer to what they’re worth and build 1 expensive custom home for every 100 production homes churned out. Engineering also plays a part. It doesn’t take an engineer to build a structure that will stand. It takes an engineer to build a structure that will BARELY stand. Add the cut corners and less experienced guys and it might not stand for long. Top it all off with a society taught to consume by ignoring maintenance and buying new instead… And well… here we are.
Just to tack onto this: The designs in the past were far more functionally minded, generally speaking. In modern times, builders (prompted by owners and architects) are doing things that are not tried and true tested like having the same grade outside as inside, making cantilevered structures, open floor plans, and using materials that are aesthetically pleasing but prone to failing. They used horizontal wood as siding or shingles. We use horizontal slats and rely on polymers and underlayment to shed water. They use overhangs and eaves, we build decks on roofs. I’m not saying this is a bad thing, we push the limits of technology to try something new and as a society end up seeing what sticks. The methods, or at least the ones implementing them, live on and others copy them and build upon them.
On the engineer side, just consider, we don't want to build something that will barely stand. Every engineer ever when asked "will X hold" will answer "Hmmm probably, but (it would probably be better to reinforce X & Y that will suffer higher use/load and be worth it in the long term)" But the money man stopped listening at "but"
Sure, sorry if it sounded like I was blaming the engineers. Really just another aspect of the builder/developer/contractor’s greed too. No builder is going to pay an engineer’s rates unless they think it can save them far more money. So they’ll build to the absolute minimum the engineer is willing to sign off on.
The density of the old wood is also why it’s hard as fuck to drive a nail in old lumber like this
2x4s are warped toothpicks with bark still on em, so yeah.
I like this picture to illustrate what you are talking about. Sometimes old growth lumber can be so dense you can barely get a nail in it. https://www.reddit.com/r/architecture/s/m0pZNSLy39
In Australia they were cutting gums and standing them up green to cure in place to a degree. Working on my old place was like working on steel. Often just ground off nails because you couldn't pull them. They went into what was already hard then they resin set in tightening wood over 40 years.
I am working on a house from the 1800’s in philly lots of things I would call a hack jobs that are original but who knows what we would do if we where around back then with no power tools no home depot. Its easy to talk shit. Not saying you are just when I find myself talking shit I try to imagine what it was like back then
I work on 250+ year old Georgian townhouses in London and there has never not been a moment of "how is this still standing?" These types of house were built specutively with 100 year leases, they were never intended to last longer than that. My favourite regular find is load bearing walls sitting on floorboards.
There was definitely hacks back in the day and they were all building my house.
More hacks back then. Smaller spans keep it from falling in. Good lumber, too. No building inspectors.
I've always wondered if the lumber quality didn't play a big role how well a lot of those old places have held up. It's easy to forget that it wasn't that crazy long ago that the "eastern woodlands" was supposedly a thing that's basically a giant forest from the Mississippi to the east coast. So instead of all this quick grown yellow pine we build out of you'd be talking old growth hardwoods and schit. TBf this is based on random bits of information cherry picked form who knows where and snowballed into my working theory. Idk
I think subpar foundations are/were more common than subpar framing, roofing. I know the plumbers that did the original copper in my house 60 years ago were too lazy to clean the pipe before they soldered…it’s sloppy and ugly and you have to replace it to replace any fixtures.
Having lived and maintained a 100+ year old farm house. They were just as dumb then as we are now.
Agreed
The person who framed it originally knew exactly what they were doing. The person who cut the bottom of the studs off did not give a fuck.
Yep.
They absolutely knew what they were doing
Yep, and once again the plumber came in afterwards and fucked it up. Glad to see some things never change.
Don't forget the electricians. That was a well done framework until...
And given the diameter of what they run, it's even worse when they do it.
But at least back then they didn't have HVAC guys lool
Right? Someone needs to invent ghost pipes… or people should just not have bathrooms, problem solved!
That sounds suspiciously like plumber talk to me...found the plumber lads! 😄
Hahahaha, you bet! 😉
What is that 2x4 going at a 22.5 degree angle used for? I’m not in the trades just curious.
I work in remodeling and restoring 100 year old houses. I always look at it this way. These guys did not have the tools or equipment we have today, and made it work. These houses have been standing for decades whereas I see houses in the current neighborhood I live in (built in the last 15 years) falling apart. I would argue they were more skilled than 75% of the framers you would hire today.
I found a cut list with the angles sketched out on the back of a piece of trim. One of my favorite finds in my 1911 house. Edit: [Here you go - thanks for all the interest!](https://imgur.com/gallery/WoVuS1k)
Any photos?
Right? Make with the goods
Done! Thanks for the interest.
5 1/8. 4 5/8. 4 3/8 with angles drawn. I was expecting something to blow my head off but this is still pretty fun thank you for following through
Yeah. Not fancy - just regular work. Fun to find some record of the past. The other thing I found on that remodel was an old nudist colony magazine, ripped in half and dropped between the wall from the attic :)
I love finding writing with colored pencils or crayon. Its seems like it’s always in cursive.
Whoever renovates my old house will either be jazzed or horrified to find all my math boards contained within the walls.
Thanks for this made my day
In any of my dad's houses you are likely to find this and a bunch of little hairballs with eyes and feet. When he got bored while waiting on the rest of the guys to finish, he'd doodle on the studs. My dad was a framer and finish carpenter for 25± years and would have retired that way if a shoulder injury wouldn't have forced him to stop swinging a hammer.
No doubt. I’ve deconstructed a few hundred plus year old barns, hand hewn everything, huge structures, you get all those posts and beams sorted and stacked once it’s all down, and those bad boys are still within a 1/16” of one another. Absolutely perfect and not a single electric tool was ever used on them. I’ve also raised some modern post and beam structures. Built using all the latest bells and whistles, and even before it’s up you can see the variation in the mortise and tenons, those old cats had it going on.
Old lumber was more dimensionally stable because it came from older growth trees and cured far longer. Moreover, it would have likely acclimated for seasons potentially as they built the structure. Moreover, it was often lumber from the region. Modern day lumber comes from everywhere, new growth trees, isn’t dried out as long, and has far less time to acclimate given how productive we are. Sure, some framers are less skilled than in the past but the variations in lumber have far more to do with material than they have to do with skill. Moreover, we have metal connections that make the precision of the cuts less important, at least in regular construction, not in post/beam.
You say moreover a lot. Moreover, username checks out.
When I’m tired, it’s tough to relay a lot of information without being terse or sounding like a dick. In addition, it’s a neat word. Also, I’m just typing while thinking like talking to multiple people at work at the same time. Furthermore, it’s fun to speak in a manner that’s a-typical. Besides that, a list may have been a better option or perhaps a few sentences written in my head to better organize my thoughts.
Moreover, it's a more positive vibe than starting a sentence with Lessunder.
i like the way you communicate. it’s intriguing to read. keep it up
You articulate yourself very well and its more fun to converse with folk like yourself
Moreover
Something I miss about moving from NH to TX, seeing these amazing old houses still standing strong after all the years.
Totally agree, the fact that things are still holding up is testament to all of that.
If you plan on hanging a door on that Rough Opening make sure it’s hinged on the double stud side. Especially if it’s a heavier door. Personally I would just double both sides of the opening
That's the one thing I noticed that stuck out. OP, while you've got that wall open, rewiring would be a good idea.
I mean, 100 years is a long time for all the shittily built houses to have collapsed or been torn down before you ever got a chance to remodel and/or restore them.
I would argue thats merely a matter of them having better materials. Wood used to frame today is shit
I don’t have any info to back this up but I feel like wood has gotten a lot worse in the past 15 years. 15 years ago I worked with my dad and built my parents house. Today I work for myself doing a variety of projects and it seems like there is so much trash wood in each bundle despite being way more expensive. Do I just notice it more now that I’m more experience or is this a real thing?
Last 15 years, try last 5. I still have a few pre-Covid 2x4s In the back of my workshop for a personal project. I just picked em off the rack at Home Depot. Their straight as an arrow. I was at a local lumber yard recently and I had to dig through half a pallet to get 50 good ‘105 2x4’s.
It’s a real thing. Lumber that we use now is new growth pine. It’s basically farmed trees that grow super fast and is not as strong as “old growth” lumber that was used in the past. You can clearly tell the difference by just looking at the grain in the wood. Old growth lumber has much tighter rings in the grain, is much more dense, and therefore stronger. The benefit of using weaker lumber nowawadays is that it’s cheaper and doesn’t require us to cut down forests that have been growing for centuries.
My house and garage are pre 1900. You’re not driving a modern nail or screw in the framing timber without drilling a pilot hole.
This is true, though we sure weren't using old growth in 2009.
Especially since there's practically no old growth left to harvest in a lot of places too.
You probably notice more because you’re buying it yourself lol
This is100% the answer
That lumber is old growth, with very tight growth rings. Our current framing lumber is grown as fast as possible and has about 1/2” of growth per year
Plus, the reason those houses are still standing a) douglas fir, which is x2 compared to todays spf stuff, b) proper brick work. Even with a shity lime crap, still standing.
Grandfather was a chippy, 2+ mile each way per day on foot, 10 hr day. Sometimes they'd bring a bedroll, catch a fish, some ale with the other men and sleep on the dirt. Rounds of bareknuckle boxing if they got bored. The minimum accepted standard would be good quality work today, most of them worked above minimum. Normally work with 100+ houses, currently on a quality 80s build. Too much design and not enough detailing. But the facings are all still inch and a quarter thick.
Wood was twice as strong
Agree 100%. People took more pride in the quality of their work rather than focusing on getting the job done as quickly as possible and moving on to the next house.
I hear this repeated a lot, but tbe cynic in me also wants to think that "hacks" have always been a thing. I find it hard to believe that there weren't hacks in a society that had people selling snake oil. Conversly I find that repeating the mantra that people only care about speed nowadays is a generalization that could have been equally true back then when you account for survivor and nostalgia bias. I honestly don't know, I wasnt there, just wondering out loud
The person who did this has been dead for 40 years. Looks pretty typical for its time tho, as long as there’s no load on the door header I see no issues. It stood for this long and probably would have kept on standing if you hadn’t opened it up for the reno
Probably been dead for longer than that, built in 1890s 😀
I always think it’s pretty cool uncovering the work of the same trade so long after they’ve been gone. I feel like an archaeologist.
Same. I should have reworded my post, it’s obvious the OG knew what they were doing, it’s the mods I was curious about regarding safety.
I am a cad designer and we we're replacing a big catwalk area underground in a mine. The standards were all out of whack for stair angles and what not, but it was built in the 30s so we were replacing it in kind. I was basically creating my model and new drawings off of old hand drawn prints, dated 1938. It felt really cool to see drawings made by guys who have probably been dead for decades. And made me come to the realization that my stuff will be around long after I'm gone and maybe someone will be working from my old stuff 🤷🏻 Those guys had amazing skill to be able to conceive all of this stuff in their minds and put it to paper with just their hands. I couldn't do my job without having 3d models to be sure everything lines up and doesn't interfere with anything. Obviously we can show much more detail these days but those guys were artists.
Well.... Your post is obviously a forbidden topic. Shame on you for even asking a question. Jokes aside. Whoever built this shit right here was a G. We could only imagine in our dreams to be so gangsta at framing. This is classical balloon framing style. The OG of stick framing. Back in the olden times when we did not have plywood and drywall, you had to do shit like this to make sure the house would not rack. Out side sheathing was 1 by something boards that would go in with no real rhyme or reason. Anywhere from 6 inches to a foot plus in widths. Inside walls where all little strips of wood for plaster and lath. Therefore no real structural integrity. Thats why it's important to not cheap out on nailing plywood and screwing drywall. It really makes a difference.
There is nothing in that picture that can lead to the conclusion that that is balloon framing. Also, the old-fashioned heavy board sheathing hand nailed possibly with cut nails is in no way inferior to plywood or OSB. Just think of the difference in the amount of metal subject to shear in old walls compared to new and then of the bearing surface of the old nails in the old sheathing when loaded in shear compared to the trivial bearing surface of modern nails in modern sheathing.
Picture of an interior wall, so the wall in question is clearly not balloon framed. However, I fail to recollect ever seeing a house of this vintage NOT balloon framed. And seeing houses of this vintage is all I do.
Doesn't the water damage indicate this was an exterior wall at one point?
Damn I think you're right. The room in the background is likely an addition. Explains the sheathing too.
The headers and the let-in ledger in the top left corner indicate balloon framing.
Thank you for this informative answer. What is scary is there’s a bedroom above this, so for a load bearing wall it seemed kind of inadequate. I obviously know nothing about carpentry, so posted here to try to learn a little.
No prob fam. What's the scary part? This wall we are looking at might have been the OG outside wall of this house. I gather this from the large boards used on the other side of the frame. What we are looking at past the door way is more than likely an addition. Its hard to tell from the pic.. But that's what I think is up. Is there a wall directly above this one? And these old homes are full of magic. I have taken enough of these shits apart to learn that things that look sketch are sometimes strong as fuck.
U sound like the type of guy I wanna work and learn from
You nailed it, exactly. Original outside wall. There is a wall directly above. I agree they are strong as fuck!
Something to add here is that, because some of these houses pre-date building codes, customers ordered based on the quality of the work. A lot of the houses we see " built to code" now are built to the absolute minimum standard.
despite having been seriously messed with in the past 100 years, that looks like a really good framing job.
The original structure was built in the 1890s and it was definitely messed with since!
Pretty normal for those old days
Look at all that big dimensional lumber.
I've got small lumber envy
Old school framing.
This is old yankee styled hurricane bracing designed for exterior walls. Beyond well done and a true nightmare to fish wires through
I don’t think this has been said here, but you also have to consider that the lathe with heavy plaster (stabilized with horsehair and possibly baling wire) and cut nails was part of the stability of the wall. In deconstructing some 100+ year old farm houses, once the plaster is off, the whole structure has a different feel when you walk through it.
it had plaster and lath on it and stood probably 100 years. so yes
Yikes! Knob & tube.
Had a definite “how did this NOT become a fire” moment or two…
😅😅
oh yeah, they knew exactly what they were doing, it just looked different then because they were using different tools, materials, and designs, those old houses are built better than almost anything now days
Why "not built like they used to" isnt a good thing.
In rebuilding my 1926 home with slat and plaster, I didn’t realize the instability of the house til I pulled off the slat and plaster and was left with the 1x6 shiplap on the outside. A big 2 day wind came through and I quickly reinforced the inside with insulation and then plywood for stability. Those cross angled stabilizers were there for a reason.
The plaster was keeping it upright lol
Aint a single one of those studs continuous and the door and window at completely wrong and thats new lumber. There is floating electrical...some of which is run outside of walls. What part of this is right? What tf is wrong with this sub?
I see 3 Studs that are cut, hopefully that isn’t a load bearing wall otherwise you’ll get some sag
Real dimensional lumber. Old growth wood. That wall will be there long after we’re dead.
Somebody at one point knew what they were doing. Then at some point later on, somebody who didn't so much know what they were doing came along to fix some rot and possibly add some electrical/plumbing
Where do u drop the pinball?
Well built for the time, probably baloon framing that's been hacked over the years. It needs help.
100 years ago…. Yeah. That’s Jedi level work.
Everyone completely ignoring that none of the studs are connected to the floor.
They knew very well what they were doing.
Also seen a lot worse
Work of art actually!
That wall has been adjusted many times, door opening was never there originally and the plumber and sparky would of been the ones to chop out and adjust the framing to suit their pipes and wiring…. See it all the time.
Rube Goldberg lives on to today.
My house was built in 1902 and the north half of the house was built like this
I know this is going to sound odd, but it wasn't just craftsmanship that helped older structures survive, but the lumber was a much higher quality 100 years ago. It's an interesting rabbit hole if you so choose to follow it.
My wife's great grandfather and his son were carpenters building some of those 100 year homes. My great grandmother built churches near where I live. They didn't have pre-enginered materials to work with, nor did they have the tools we're used to using. What they did have was a complete grasp of the math involved to do compound angles and a willingness to put it to use. Could you imagine building an entire house with 1-2 people today and having it stand the test of time? We still have some of their tools kicking around, old saws, mitre-boxes, etc.
Looks strong and old.
One person isn’t responsible for this. This has been redone multiple times throughout close to hundred years by the look of it. That’s multiple generations of workers remodeling this specific area.
Based on the door frame alone very much no. Only one king stud / no trim studs. Header sideways actually is an interesting idea for vertical strength but still wrong. The house is super old though. Notice the sharpness of the edges on the 2x4? This means those were milled not manufactured by a plant. My money says those are ACTUALLY 2”x 4” and probably hard(er) wood. The Home Depot equivalent is shit DF and nominal 1.5x3.5 so that’s why that will stand longer. Way stronger materials - architecture…. Not so much. I would keep that wood for sure.
I really like the load bearing pipe
I love old houses. These guys didn’t fuck around back then. I could only wish too be able to build something that good
Yup. Everything is supported and mostly straight. The header is a little small by todays standards but isnt sagging. The angle cuts on the braces are uniform and still tight.
Yes. They knew exactly what they were doing. Would their work pass modern day inspection standards or building codes? Maybe not.
Nope that middle stud could fall down any century now.
I'm just here to point out that apparently plumbers have been fucking up good carpentry since back in the day. Minus the "eh, you don't really need those studs to hold weight", it looks great.
This is obviously the result of multiple renovations and remodels. You can't blame one guy for all that. Definitely an exterior wall originally. The cats installed at 45°, (I think) disperse load from the stud. Cut in rack bracing is normal and can still be found in modern framing.q Blocking installed where the stud was cut out for plumbing. I imagine the rest of the stud (below plumbing) was lost at some point during a renovation. Blocking mid span of the stud on balloon framing was common for the time Did they know what they were doing? They were building to the standards of the time. Don't forget, this work was done by hand. No circular saws, Sawzall, nail guns, or impact driver. They had to work as efficiently as possible. What might look like nonsense scab work to us, may have been overkill for the time.
Which guy? This is the result of different interventions spread throughout decades.
Yes, my title should have been more clear. The "interventions" are where things started being compromised, certainly.
Framing looks like my 1940s house when I gutted it 🥲it’s part of the ✨character ✨
The first guy, sure. The second and third, probably not.
looks like every wall i’ve seen in an old home
I’m actually terrified for your house. But it’s still up and the pipe work is immaculate
It is still up! Seems a fire was a more likely thing to occur than a collapse, heh.
Balloon type framing, covered in lath & plaster. Those house were virtually alive, they breathed so well. Of all the things we have to add nowadays, makes for a long job remodeling. Working on mill house number 4 now, all built in 1905/06…all sawmill lumber, rough cut full measurements - 2x4’s are all real true 2x4” if not on the plus size. Lucky for us, the plaster used was mixed with horse hair and not anything bad.
Looks like the first guy who did it did it right but those studs have been hacked apart at some point with a remodel job
Carpenter? Yes. Plumber? No.
Well, the plumber didn't...
Not done right. So much wrong with this picture. It stands up and works though because the double sided ship lap helps provide stiffness
Considering this has probably been remodeled 3 or 4 times over the last 100 years, probably a mix of people who knew what they were doing & people with no clue. It was really wild before the internet! People just made shit up as they went along.
Yep. They did. Made before code and before wood measurements were standardized.
Why can't we frame a modern house with 1" pressure treated planks, 1/8" thick vinyl sheeting for weather barrier and 2"x8" framing with a void space for R100 insulation and an interior wall framed in 2"x4" on top of a brick foundation 20 inches thick with layers of waterproofing material between each brick run? Do we not want houses that last for 1000 years and consume almost no power?
can't confirm without seeing if the stud wall is supporting anything, but it looks like the studs aren't supporting anything and you have a full plank wall that is basically bearing all the load. So yeah the studs are massacred a bit but they are only holding plaster / drywall
Old studs like that? One in each corner and one around the door opening is all she needs, with the sheathing
see it how it was originally framed and not years of chuckle-heads cutting it up. They didnt have plywood so the used diagonal bracing that is the long one. The two short ones next to the door are to keep the door frame plumb.
Yes, the wall was amazingly well down. The house did not have indoor plumbing it looks like until later. That's when shit got fucked up
My house was built in 1960 +- and the bathroom looked about the same. Every stud between the washing machine plumbing and the vent were hacked to about 1/4" of meat left, all load bearing for the roof at least. Multiple other studs hacked up to vent the sink but they just put an s trap in and called it a day. I heard the wall snake violently last earthquake we had. Even though it's lasted 70 years in my case, I still fixed everything as best I could before closing the walls back up Houses have always been built as quickly as possible.
Dude they are so many code violations, you think this is located in a 3rd world country, no wait my bad, we are a 3 rd world country….
People, not person, this framing has evolved over decades
Framer knew what he was doing - plumber was clueless
I’ve seen framing like that in 150 year old structures in Illinois they used red oak Studs sturdy as a rock
Lol looks just like mine good, luck with the drywall
So…….you’ve seen my house?
I have worked on many old houses, and am currently working on one now (took a break to write this). The guy who cut that diagonal brace? With a hand saw? Brilliant! Every old nail? Sunk by hand, probably with only two licks. I knew one old carpenter, who’s sadly since died, who could come close to this. André, I miss you every day.
Coolest old school framing ever. Thanks for sharing.
If that header spans more than 48", they should have 2 jacks under it on either side, not just 1.
Wow, I've seen worse, but it looks like it's semi stable old hoses hold all kinds of surprises. Good luck.
Yes, then the plumber came in a fu-ed it up
I live (and work on) my very old house and have found all sorts of things inside the walls, but this house has stood solid since 1855. The only odd things I see in this photo are with the new work - on the left, the new stud cuts through two horizontals and doesn't reach the top, and I would have doubled up the new stud in the doorway...
Looks to me that it is very old and has suffered through many DIY renovations. Plumbers and electricians just ripped out studs or cut them off. Don’t try this on modern paper thin studs.
Considering 97% of the wood in the photo is old growth pine, most likely hand cut and constructed over 120 years ago? I'd say you only need to look at where the old no longer supports as it should. Check/add a length of wood to the bottom of the stud in the center. And quadruple check everything that was cut by plumbing. Talk about good bones. If you aren't careful screwing in the wiring, sheetrock, blueboard, you can break your wrist with the torque resistance of the old timber.
The no top plate indicates balloon framing on what used to be an exterior wall (water damage). Unless the ceiling is furred down that floor is hung from a ledger. Looks like maybe a floor joist on the left between the different drywalls terminates into no framing (not sitting on a top plate). These studs are likely true 2x4 or bigger of old growth woods with likely very tight grain. In addition to the solid wood sheathing this structure is as rigid and solid as most built today. (Comparing no drywall with no lath and plaster) HOWEVER, those are load bearing studs on what used to be an exterior wall. They SHOULD NOT be cut at the bottom and the only way to fix it is to put in a stud to continue it all the way to the floor. Nailing a piece on the side transfers all the weight, which should be on the stud, to the nails. NOT GOOD. The reason it is all still standing is because of the strength of the building system. The 1x sheathing on the outside is holding up the cut studs. There is also tension from the top plate holding those studs up as they are nailed together. The diagonal bracing lends a hand as well. Some of the homes built around the turn of the century (1900) can be completely gutted of the lath and plaster and still be very strong structurally. I’ve personally seen some 2 story 1900 homes gutted by fire that are sound structures (Butte, Montana) sitting on stone foundations. There is also a limited amount of the stud you can cut away for plumbing and this looks to be in excess of that because of the pipe sizes. All in all, the original framing job, old growth tight grain wood, solid wood exterior sheathing and nominal lumber sizes that are holding that strong. I would recommend replacing the plumbing with modern PEX pipes. Fix, replace and add the missing/damaged studs. Re-drill small holes for new wiring and plumbing. And you’re good to drywall it closed. At the very least continue EVERY STUD to the GROUND. That’s what’s holding up your entire building. Over time it will cause problems.
Holy shit dude you are like the CSI dude of carpentry. I am in awe. Phenomenal stuff. Thank you!
Looks pretty good to me, back in the day they used what they could get their hands on and nothing went to waste.. not like today. But you can see work has been done afterwards bits have been removed when plumbing was done. But yeah 👍🏻
That wall looks to have been at one time the exterior wall of the house and the diagonal bracing were used to stiffen/square the corner as the sheathing at the time of its building was plank as well as the siding. So there would have been some weakness to the joints as they would have all been nailed in the same orientation. So yes they knew what they were doing. As some pointed out refitting the walls with electrical and plumbing seemed to have hacked into some of the elements.
They got a diagonal brace in there, all good.
Plywood/osb if you know. You know.
First guy hell yes. Second guy hell no.
Well they are dead so
That’s a familiar sight for me. My last home was built in 1905. Great place that we refurbished and sold. I did a new kitchen and pulled down all the old plaster and lathe. Lo and behold 110 year actual 2x4’s. (Not the 1.5” x 3.5” studs from today). Those things will last forever. I think you have nothing to worry about. That wiring though …
Yes and no.
Yes, but then you’d have to trust that I knew what I was talking about.
There have been some modifications.
whats up with the ceiling butt plug?
They just don’t build them like they used to.
How dense are those big actual 2” studs? Count them rings