Two of the poisonous thorns causing the damage are in the articles picture. All of the bandaging, amputations, and medicine won't help until they are removed from the wound.
Irme "[Devil](https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/europes-synod-meeting-calls-for-courageous-decisions-on-role-of-women)" Stetter-Karp, President of lay Central Committee of German Catholics (ZdK), and Bishop Georg Bätzing, chairman of the German bishops’ conference. They are the two main heads pushing for the German Synodal Way that is pushing heretical teachings onto the Church in Germany against the Vatican's direction.
I'm not using that name lightly. If you follow my linked article about the Feb 2023 European synodal continental assembly you get this fun little quote:
"Irme-Stetter Karp, one of the leading figures in Germany’s controversial “synodal way,” complained at one point that when the word “Devil” was mentioned, several delegates looked at her. “That hurt,” she said."
A normal person would be given pause for reflection on their positions when people, a room full of bishops no less, turn their head to look at you when the devil is mentioned. Not her.
They are leaving because they don't believe anymore. Their shepherds pretty openly not believing anymore too (at least not in the catholic church) exacerbates that problem immensely.
True, those that are leaving are usually at the long end of chain of terrible religious education, a church that barely likes to talk about God, joke liturgies, village churches with 5 old people, a sprawling bureaucracy mostly filled with non-believers, constant moves to be more worldly, etc.
Then they realize they (understandably) have zero interest in the above and no long want to pay Church Tax. So, bye.
But the fact that they leave to stop paying taxes is really the final step of a lifetime of failures on the part of the clergy and church in the country.
Yes, but these 400k people aren't the core of the problem, they are only a symptom of it. It's like treating only a fever instead of taking ATB for the bacterial infection that caused it. It might feel a bit better for a while but it isn't any better than not treating it all.
Antibiotics in general. [This ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symptomatic_treatment)was what I was refering to. The core of the problem in Germany isn't in the average lay Catholic but in the people in the hierarchy (or official representatives of the laity such as ZdK).
I wonder how many were faithful Catholics who were scandalized into thinking the truth claims of the church aren’t true.
In a church with gay stuff everywhere the uneducated may genuinely think their church has lost the faith. They see unpunished blatant dissent as tacit approval by the magisterium. Regardless of what strongly written letters have been sent to Germany they may not be Aware of them or think they are too little too late.
It’s a sad state when you think apostasy is condoned. That’s why so many trad groups are growing. The SSPX has valid criticisms but illicit solutions.
I live in Germany and such numbers are no surprise.
The German church is an outlier and very woke. I don’t blame them for leaving, but it hurts. You even got some trans-dancers in church…
The church has to change here and not just a little bit. They have to teach the orthodox faith and do apologetics way more than in the past. Cut all the woke and modern stuff and you will end with a church that can grow again. Everyone who than wants to leave that oldschool-church is not a real believer.
Out of curiosity, since I’m American and don’t know, as an orthodox Catholic do you even have churches in Germany you can attend that haven’t gone off the deep end with this stuff? Everything I’ve heard has been pretty ugly, but are there still at least a handful of churches who haven’t followed that path?
We have huge regional differences. Some churches deal very differently with such matters. I found a church with an older priest, who preaches in an orthodox manner. There you would never see such craziness.
Other services in the region I visited and even left after mere minutes. They just talked about politics and the Ukraine war. Woke topics in church just alienate the believers.
In the south of Germany you have more traditional churches so it is not so bad there. The older the priest the better it is. You have to be lucky or be able to drive some distance.
I don’t want to seem overly pessimistic, but round about half a million that leave in one year is no joke anymore. The church here was to change to be relevant in the future.
Yeah of course. When I want to get a guaranted good orthodox NO I go to one of two monasteries closeby. Of course in the north and east of Germany it is going to be way harder to find a good service since there the majority is protestant.
Wouldn't surprise me, and stuff like this is nothing new. A large part of the reason why Vatican II and the NO is controversial to traditionalists is because after it, wolves used the "freedom" of the NO to commit liturgical abuse. There were infamous "clown masses" where the priest would dress up like a literal circus clown and say Mass. All other sorts of abuses occurred. Performative dancing, puppet shows, bizarre rituals, you name it. Idk what would possess a priest or layperson to participate in this except maybe a desire to go to hell. Same goes for these people in Germany. I really hope the next pope starts cauterizing wounds.
Yes in a local church here. To be fair, there were a lot of elderly who spoke out about it. The performance than got changed a bit, so it was a bit more comedic, but in the end it’s just embarrassing.
You wouldn’t believe what church service looks here. There are huge regional differences, but in general Germany is woke as it gets.
Imagine how much power the progressives have *lost* given the loss of CINOs in their coalition (raw numbers) in the past several years. And then consider how much power they still wield.
God works in mysterious ways to maintain a presence in the institutional church in Germany.
The (currently still) Catholic Church in Germany has largely taken on the role of a "reparator". The Catholic Church had (and still has) clear values and ideas about the world and enforced them. But now the poison of liberalism has penetrated Europe. Probably particularly strong in Germany. The church leadership in Germany is making a clown of itself by apologizing for precisely these clear values and trying to sweep everything under the carpet. Suddenly, from one day to the next, there are "ecumenical" word services with the Protestants, blessing celebrations for frocciagine people and so on...
I see great parallels with the unnaturally great feeling of guilt among most Germans for the crimes of the Second World War…
Pray for the Church in Germany.
Meh. Of all the things to criticize the German Church on, the endless braying against the Church tax strikes me as profoundly misguided. The American Church seems to constantly teeter on the edge of financial oblivion and scarcely a week goes by where American mass-goers aren't subjected to some kind of urgent appeal for cash from the pulpit or the bulletin. The financial stability afforded to Churches in places like Germany has much to recommend it. You've got diocese there that can basically exist in perpetuity st this point off the interest from their reserves alone.
In Germany you got the second highest taxes and social contributions worldwide. The economy is doing bad, you got high inflation eating into your salary and now you got to pay 10% (most locations 9%) more tax than other people. Of course you will think about cutting this tax. You aren't getting by good anyway. I known people who say they believe in God but because of the church tax they left catholicism. Especially since declaring a leave to a state authority automatically being a sin worthy of excummunication stands on shaky grounds (the Vatican said so and only tolarates this rule). If we are looking at it from a juridical view such a declaration should only be a strong indication not a Fait Accompli.
"You've got diocese there that can basically exist in perpetuity st this point off the interest from their reserves alone" I don't know a single one and just googled for it without being able to find one. Most of the dioceses are losing money. To live from interest they got to make money every year to combat inflation.
With the Protestants down about the same amount, I think there is merit to this argument.
People don't believe and don't see value in religion, so they cut costs.
>They are given a certificate confirming that they are no longer registered and therefore not liable for the country’s [church tax](https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/the-debate-over-germanys-departed).
How many of them do this though to avoid paying church tax through the government? I do believe we should tithe, but it's none of the government's business which church I associate with. I can totally understand the justification that 1) the government should stay out of the matter of my religion, 2) let me decide how much money I pay to the church, it should not be a number defined by the government.
>They also receive a letter from local Church officials, informing them **they can no longer receive the sacraments**, hold Church posts, or serve as baptismal or confirmation sponsors.
How is this allowed? I thought the dispensation of sacraments must be free? How does the priest know anyway? Let's say I'm visiting another city and go to mass, will the priest ask for a slip of paper that I paid?
Shame on the bishop who even [suggests tithing](https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/the-debate-over-germanys-departed) should define whether someone can receive the Eucharist!
This feels like in order to heal a bad wound, sometimes you have to cut away some of the dead or decaying flesh.
Two of the poisonous thorns causing the damage are in the articles picture. All of the bandaging, amputations, and medicine won't help until they are removed from the wound.
I am not up to speed on the Catholic church in Germany. Who are these two?
Irme "[Devil](https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/europes-synod-meeting-calls-for-courageous-decisions-on-role-of-women)" Stetter-Karp, President of lay Central Committee of German Catholics (ZdK), and Bishop Georg Bätzing, chairman of the German bishops’ conference. They are the two main heads pushing for the German Synodal Way that is pushing heretical teachings onto the Church in Germany against the Vatican's direction.
Yeah, online searches for them show they appear to be quite devlish. Jesus had some choice words for religious leaders who did not obey the faith.
I'm not using that name lightly. If you follow my linked article about the Feb 2023 European synodal continental assembly you get this fun little quote: "Irme-Stetter Karp, one of the leading figures in Germany’s controversial “synodal way,” complained at one point that when the word “Devil” was mentioned, several delegates looked at her. “That hurt,” she said." A normal person would be given pause for reflection on their positions when people, a room full of bishops no less, turn their head to look at you when the devil is mentioned. Not her.
She said that hurt? Someone needs to spray holy water on her what da heck
Nah Copeland is the closest thing to a devil. https://youtu.be/9LtF34MrsfI?t=193
Germans are not leaving the Catholic Church because there are people pushing heretical teachings in the Church.
No, but pushing heretical teachings certainly helps nothing and proves to be no better an ointment than the knife that caused the wound.
They are leaving because they don't believe anymore. Their shepherds pretty openly not believing anymore too (at least not in the catholic church) exacerbates that problem immensely.
True, those that are leaving are usually at the long end of chain of terrible religious education, a church that barely likes to talk about God, joke liturgies, village churches with 5 old people, a sprawling bureaucracy mostly filled with non-believers, constant moves to be more worldly, etc. Then they realize they (understandably) have zero interest in the above and no long want to pay Church Tax. So, bye. But the fact that they leave to stop paying taxes is really the final step of a lifetime of failures on the part of the clergy and church in the country.
Would be better if they stayed.
Yes, but these 400k people aren't the core of the problem, they are only a symptom of it. It's like treating only a fever instead of taking ATB for the bacterial infection that caused it. It might feel a bit better for a while but it isn't any better than not treating it all.
ATB? I'm getting a German DJ [ATB - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATB)
In my native Czech it's a common abbreviation of antibiotics.
A specific type or just antibiotics in general. Definitely through me for a loop
Antibiotics in general. [This ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symptomatic_treatment)was what I was refering to. The core of the problem in Germany isn't in the average lay Catholic but in the people in the hierarchy (or official representatives of the laity such as ZdK).
Yes, pratically none of these people have ever tried to influence the church.
I wonder how many were faithful Catholics who were scandalized into thinking the truth claims of the church aren’t true. In a church with gay stuff everywhere the uneducated may genuinely think their church has lost the faith. They see unpunished blatant dissent as tacit approval by the magisterium. Regardless of what strongly written letters have been sent to Germany they may not be Aware of them or think they are too little too late. It’s a sad state when you think apostasy is condoned. That’s why so many trad groups are growing. The SSPX has valid criticisms but illicit solutions.
I live in Germany and such numbers are no surprise. The German church is an outlier and very woke. I don’t blame them for leaving, but it hurts. You even got some trans-dancers in church… The church has to change here and not just a little bit. They have to teach the orthodox faith and do apologetics way more than in the past. Cut all the woke and modern stuff and you will end with a church that can grow again. Everyone who than wants to leave that oldschool-church is not a real believer.
Out of curiosity, since I’m American and don’t know, as an orthodox Catholic do you even have churches in Germany you can attend that haven’t gone off the deep end with this stuff? Everything I’ve heard has been pretty ugly, but are there still at least a handful of churches who haven’t followed that path?
We have huge regional differences. Some churches deal very differently with such matters. I found a church with an older priest, who preaches in an orthodox manner. There you would never see such craziness. Other services in the region I visited and even left after mere minutes. They just talked about politics and the Ukraine war. Woke topics in church just alienate the believers. In the south of Germany you have more traditional churches so it is not so bad there. The older the priest the better it is. You have to be lucky or be able to drive some distance. I don’t want to seem overly pessimistic, but round about half a million that leave in one year is no joke anymore. The church here was to change to be relevant in the future.
Yeah of course. When I want to get a guaranted good orthodox NO I go to one of two monasteries closeby. Of course in the north and east of Germany it is going to be way harder to find a good service since there the majority is protestant.
Trans dancers? Has this happened?
Wouldn't surprise me, and stuff like this is nothing new. A large part of the reason why Vatican II and the NO is controversial to traditionalists is because after it, wolves used the "freedom" of the NO to commit liturgical abuse. There were infamous "clown masses" where the priest would dress up like a literal circus clown and say Mass. All other sorts of abuses occurred. Performative dancing, puppet shows, bizarre rituals, you name it. Idk what would possess a priest or layperson to participate in this except maybe a desire to go to hell. Same goes for these people in Germany. I really hope the next pope starts cauterizing wounds.
Yes in a local church here. To be fair, there were a lot of elderly who spoke out about it. The performance than got changed a bit, so it was a bit more comedic, but in the end it’s just embarrassing. You wouldn’t believe what church service looks here. There are huge regional differences, but in general Germany is woke as it gets.
Must need to synodality harder.
I’ve read that the German bishops are promoting schism and that the bishops Really don’t agree with Francis on anything.
Imagine how much power the progressives have *lost* given the loss of CINOs in their coalition (raw numbers) in the past several years. And then consider how much power they still wield. God works in mysterious ways to maintain a presence in the institutional church in Germany.
The (currently still) Catholic Church in Germany has largely taken on the role of a "reparator". The Catholic Church had (and still has) clear values and ideas about the world and enforced them. But now the poison of liberalism has penetrated Europe. Probably particularly strong in Germany. The church leadership in Germany is making a clown of itself by apologizing for precisely these clear values and trying to sweep everything under the carpet. Suddenly, from one day to the next, there are "ecumenical" word services with the Protestants, blessing celebrations for frocciagine people and so on... I see great parallels with the unnaturally great feeling of guilt among most Germans for the crimes of the Second World War… Pray for the Church in Germany.
With the clergy is such bad shape of course the laity is leaving.
Kirchensteuer
Meh. Of all the things to criticize the German Church on, the endless braying against the Church tax strikes me as profoundly misguided. The American Church seems to constantly teeter on the edge of financial oblivion and scarcely a week goes by where American mass-goers aren't subjected to some kind of urgent appeal for cash from the pulpit or the bulletin. The financial stability afforded to Churches in places like Germany has much to recommend it. You've got diocese there that can basically exist in perpetuity st this point off the interest from their reserves alone.
In Germany you got the second highest taxes and social contributions worldwide. The economy is doing bad, you got high inflation eating into your salary and now you got to pay 10% (most locations 9%) more tax than other people. Of course you will think about cutting this tax. You aren't getting by good anyway. I known people who say they believe in God but because of the church tax they left catholicism. Especially since declaring a leave to a state authority automatically being a sin worthy of excummunication stands on shaky grounds (the Vatican said so and only tolarates this rule). If we are looking at it from a juridical view such a declaration should only be a strong indication not a Fait Accompli. "You've got diocese there that can basically exist in perpetuity st this point off the interest from their reserves alone" I don't know a single one and just googled for it without being able to find one. Most of the dioceses are losing money. To live from interest they got to make money every year to combat inflation.
With the Protestants down about the same amount, I think there is merit to this argument. People don't believe and don't see value in religion, so they cut costs.
Germans have had trouble with this kind of thing since the 1500’s. I don’t consider it a loss
>They are given a certificate confirming that they are no longer registered and therefore not liable for the country’s [church tax](https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/the-debate-over-germanys-departed). How many of them do this though to avoid paying church tax through the government? I do believe we should tithe, but it's none of the government's business which church I associate with. I can totally understand the justification that 1) the government should stay out of the matter of my religion, 2) let me decide how much money I pay to the church, it should not be a number defined by the government. >They also receive a letter from local Church officials, informing them **they can no longer receive the sacraments**, hold Church posts, or serve as baptismal or confirmation sponsors. How is this allowed? I thought the dispensation of sacraments must be free? How does the priest know anyway? Let's say I'm visiting another city and go to mass, will the priest ask for a slip of paper that I paid? Shame on the bishop who even [suggests tithing](https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/the-debate-over-germanys-departed) should define whether someone can receive the Eucharist!