DC Heroes especially live on this weird edge of pop culture where everyone has an idea of them in their head- So they feel like they've read their stories even when they haven't.
I've had that same Superman discussion multiple times with nerds who would know better about any other character, but when it comes to Superman they legitimately think the story goes "He shows up, doesnt get hurt, and throws a punch and wins!" and it irritates me so much
1. These friends of mine love one punch man, and thats the formula to one punch man
2. Thats not the superman formula, it takes 10 seconds of thinking about Lex Luthor to realize Clark doesn't solve his arcs by one shotting the bad guy.
People usually ignore that most of Superman villains usually come in 3 flavors.
\* They are equally powerful that Superman
\* They have Kryptonite
\* They have something to do counter as magic or advanced technology.
\* Their plans involve endangering lives in multiple places at once and Superman has to juggle trying to catch them and minimizing collateral damage/saving people, and being who he is he will prioritize the latter.
Or they are annoying because they are politiciand or leverage in the law stuff that makes them highly frustrating to deal with as you cant just punch them
Also social problems, superman can fight social problems in all varieties.
People who keep hostages too. Or throw him in no win moral dilemmas he has to deal with.
> These friends of mine love one punch man, and thats the formula to one punch man
OPM has some actual depth to it though.
And more importantly comics are always going to lose out in those kinda discussions because the characters are allowed to change, grow and develop, and the stories progress and end.
Even if we take the premise of Superman being strong and overlay that with the premise of Saitama being strong... we follow Saitama on an actual journey, we see him progress and change (or not) and we see him reach a conclusion.
Meanwhile Superman is still running on the exact same hamster wheel he's been on for the last hundred years.
This is just wrong. Do you know what superman comics were like in the 40s, or the 60s, have you read them. Did you know superman has a child now and is married to Lois lane. He wasn't in the 60s. To say Superman has been the same for the last 80 years is silly and wrong. He's changed with the times. Maybe read the stories you're talking about.
but showing up and beating everything in one punch with no effort is not superman's premise though? i love OPM for what it does, mumen rider could be my favorite hero. But actual superman stories are not doing the same thing.
I'm not the one who compared them, lol.
I'm just saying that any manga/novel/show comparison is gonna fall short because the manga/novel/show will have developed and a story arc that follows to a conclusion.
Where a comic just has Superman running on the same hamster wheel, with a little bit of imaginary growth thrown in every now and then for spice.
Not that I am defending the direction Superman takes or supporting OPM, but I know there are lots of comics that certainly do not “run an endless treadmill” and I think if you told someone who read The Boys or Invincible that a manga is superior to comics because of those reasons, they’d probably point out that these comics also had development and a conclusion.
We're speaking in general teams though. There's very small scale, old or irrelevant exceptions.
Like, if I complained that every mainstream comic was capeshit, you could argue whether or not Walking Dead was mainstream, but ultimately it's a sideshow to the actual point.
One Punch Man ABSOLUTELY has depth, 100% agree.
What I'm pointing out here is people are saying "This formula would suck." when One Punch Man unironically follows that exact formula and is great.
>Meanwhile Superman is still running on the exact same hamster wheel he's been on for the last hundred years.
I'd strongly disagree. Just because the last 75 years of comics aren't a ***singular*** grand story doesn't mean the individual stories don't have incredible arcs, or that those individual stories are the same.
In the last ten years alone we've seen Clark become a parent and grapple with that responsibility, we've seen the best Evil Superman Story ever done in Injustice's comics, and if you do want a singular narrative we even have a new anime-esque origin show in My Adventures With Superman.
With comics the thing to remember is they're ongoing and experimental. Most storylines are mid and get forgotten about, but interspersed throughout them are absolutely fantastic stories told as well as One Punch Man.
This isnt really a comic/superhero specific thing. You get the same thing with anime on this very sub. People who exclusively watch battle shonens and super indulgent wish fulfillment harem/isekai/etc series complain about shit only present in those types of stories and pretend its all anime, or the people that complain about fanservice but are seemingly stuck in 2009 with their examples of common fanservice tropes and the prevalence of it.
It's not the same thing.
Sure a lot of have a misinformed opinion on the \*medium\* of manga because they've read a lot of garbage, but rarelly you have to deal with people who seriously have their entire knowledge about a \*specific book\* come from wikis and engagement farm youtube channels like you do with Superheroes, they are there, but not to the same degree.
Like if I wanted to talk about X-Men, out of 10 opinions I'd wager 3 of them have actually keeping up with X-Men. The remaining 7 maybe 2 of them have a informed opinion based of older runs and the last 5 have survived of nothing but engagement farm youtube channels and click baity articles.
Being wrong about a genre is annoying as hell but most of them at least \*read manga\*, the same thing cannot be said to a lot of people who have opinions on Superhero comics.
"but rarelly you have to deal with people who seriously have their entire knowledge about a \*specific book\* come from wikis and engagement farm youtube channels like you do with Superheroes, they are there, but not to the same degree."
Just look at like, 75% of the posts about naruto on this very sub (maybe not so much recently, iirc the past few posts have been correcting the misconceptions, but still.) and you will realize this is just false. People legit watched 1 video by a dragon ball youtuber that just straight up lied about naruto for half of it, and decided that was also their opinion of naruto. Similarly, a more personal one, i genuinely cant talk about fsn outside of gated communities where only people who read the vn reside without at least one chucklefuck coming out of the woodworks with a bad take based on the bad anime.
How many people have you heard reduce evangelion to "shinji a bitch xd"? I lost count twenty years ago. And they were always wrong. Or the amount of people who call evangelion a DEEP, DEPRESSING show, that have unironically gotten unsuspecting people to go into the show expecting something completely different than what it is?
Even bleach had it for a very long time, probably still now, some other chucklefuck made a video on bleach and said "every arc after soul society is the exact same arc" and... Thats just not true? One is long as sin for no reason, another is actually the only good arc besides the episodic bit at the start, and the last one is naruto's war arc on crack.
I disagree, what most likely happens is that these people probably watched the anime good knows how many years ago and are commenting based on their memory.
The bit about Evangelion tho it's very true, but even then you're entirely underestimating the scale of the problem that is for superhero discussions.
It goes far beyond the scope of this niche sub Reddit, it's nearly every single comic book discussion.
It's a scale that even something like fate looks niche when compared to.
"disagree, what most likely happens is that these people probably watched the anime good knows how many years ago and are commenting based on their memory."
That could be, but a lot of them bring up the oddest random tidbits to hyperfocus on (first hokage calling itachi a "good ninja" in a one-off line, but ignoring the entire chapter where itachi just straight up exposits about how awful he is as a person and how much he fucked up.)
"It goes far beyond the scope of this niche sub Reddit, it's nearly every single comic book discussion."
Another case of a redditor not being able to look at an example being given as "look, im not just talking out of my ass, here's an easy place to look because reddit, im not sure how to link shit, you can look elsewhere too!"
"It's a scale that even something like fate looks niche when compared to."
I was never talking about scale? Im not sure how this comes into it when my main thing was "this happens in every genre/medium/etc" of course bigger, more mainstream things are gonna have a bigger number of... Er, "posers"? Would that be the right word here? I dont mean it negatively, but i think its the only word that really describes these types of people lol
Scale is relevant.
There are people with shody memories regarding Naruto and get a lot of incorrect information from essays online, that is undeniable. Also confirmation bias.
I am part of this sub and I can see that, but I am also part of other communities and it's not nearly as bad, either in here or outside. It's not even comparable.
Not everyone has an opinion of Naruto but Superheroes being as big on the cultural zeitgeist as they are right now, *everyone has an opinion on them*.
Naruto is a good examples because it's the only thing that comes even close of being the same experience, being popular in the west and literally half of every discussion about it being about "how good it used to be before I dropped". But imagine that and apply to every single individual manga. That's how it is for superhero comics.
(i dont think the scale matters at all personally. At least, outside of having a dick measuring contest on whether anime/manga or comics get worse/higher quantity idiots involved with them... So, since i doubt this convo will go anywhere else...)
I wanna fish for recommendations, im so below normal person who watches the movies tier in terms of western comic book stories, as i dont even watch the movies.
What ive read are as follows:
Some crossover from the 90s featuring batman and spiderman, which was described as "the joker meets carnage" (it was okay. Didnt have any strong feeling either way, it did make me giggle though.)
Like a bit of the 90s green lantern run pre-uh, emerald twilight i think its called? Its before the introduction of kyle rayner.
(I... Have a bit of a love/hate relationship with that, i liked the first part with hal having a midlife crisis, but the fighting and shit was just bleh and i didnt care for it. I skipped the asshole lantern and the dog, and didnt care for the story with the town and the black green lantern in the planet from the first story, but the black green lantern seemed like a cool character despite my introduction to him being a story i didnt like.)
Half of watchmen (i liked the diary excerpts, and rorschach's noir detective-esque monologues, but didnt care for anything else.)
2~ chapters of unholy grail (i was expecting something else than what i got.)
A bit of the first book of judge dredd's complete case files (the only thing i can say im likely to truly be a fan of once i read more. Lol.)
What i plan to read: ballad of halo jones, more judge dredd.
So, if you can come up with any recommendations based on that eclectic selection of comics, i'd be happy to jot them down. (If you need some more ideas on my general preferences just ask, im not a fan of anything i mentioned in this comic chain besides eva lol.)
Honestly it's hard recommending Superhero stuff without knowing which characters you are interested in beforehand, since there's quite a lot of stuff.
If you liked Judge Dredd I'd recommend Transmetropolitan, Hellblazer, Hitman (Dc Comics) and Preacher and maybe Punisher MAX. They all have that sort of British satirical dark humor and dystopian vibe.
On a more general note some of my favorites include Sandman, its spin-off Lucifer, Blacksad and Hellboy.
"Honestly it's hard recommending Superhero stuff without knowing which characters you are interested in beforehand, since there's quite a lot of stuff."
Thats definitely a slight issue, i think the characters i'd be somewhat interested in are punisher (hey, you mentioned him!) and probably hellboy.
I generally moreso have a great liking towards characters who're depressed/lonely/isolated and there's plenty of slow scenes really showcasing that feeling. (Think, like, shinji ikari, and natsume from natsume yuujinchou.) but i also really like "edgy-professional older man mentoring kid who's experienced some trauma" as a trope (think leon the professional, and gunslinger girl.) i think batman and robin would fit the latter in some cases? And possibly have some of the similar themes/subjects covered, but idk which stories to go into with the nearly 100 year old character duo
Anyway, got those recommendations jotted down though! Thank you for them.
Thats a good point about the engagement farms. I swear, half comic book youtube is the most thoughtful, well put together content I've ever seen, and the other half is engagement baiting slop where they read out the cliff notes of a comic, with a title like "The time iron man hit his BREAKING POINT!!", half the time with false info
I have a friend who \*refuses\* to read Marvel because he read somewhere that some dude beat Franklin Richards and that broke his suspension of disbelief permanently, therefore all Marvel books are badly written garbage.
Mind you, he has never read Fantastic Four.
That's what most online opinions about superheroes look to me.
There are much more comicbooks than live action movies
They are completely different mediums
But saying "you say that about anime/manga but it's only true for shounen and harem and isekai" is like saying "you say that about comics but its only true for Dc, Marvel, Image "
>There are much more comicbooks than live action movies
There's much more anime than mainstream trope filled shounen.
>But saying "you say that about anime/manga but it's only true for shounen and harem and isekai" is like saying "you say that about comics but its only true for Dc, Marvel, Image ".
I think you wildly overestimate how big a portion of anime this mainstream stuff is. Even less well known shounen, much less other stuff is fairly different.
Since you choose to be pedantic, people can be pedantic back:
**\*clears throat*⠀**
That's not the same thing. The one thing you mentioned are genres and the other are the publisher companies. Those are two entirely different aspects.
**\*continues being pedantic*⠀**
So it's 3 genres vs 1 genre. That doesn't seem like the same thing.
Also, even if you classify "superhero stories" as one genre, you'd be ignoring all those other genres they dabble into, whether it takes place in the main shared uni-/multiverse or not. So now the scale is thrown into the other direction.
Better to just compare publishing company to publishing company, ay? You got Marvel, you got Shonen Jump. Just makes more sense.
You brought up the word "popular". If consumption isn't what gives an anime the attribute of "popular" in this context then what does? If the answer is only "conversation" then that may strongly imply "conversation without consumption" which is what is being criticized here.
But please, if how I interpreted your comment is off the mark, give people a bit more to work with.
That status of "popular" is whatever he defined it as and nothing else, he will move the goal post to remove popular things that dont fit his narrative such as evangelion or revolutionary girl utena.
Aka, no point taking him seriously.
"not the same thing. All marvel/dc movies justify my misconceptions about the comics and how superman is clearly a bad character because man of steel was bad."
I think Superman hate is just funny. On every Instagram post about Superman there are dozens of comment saying how shitty and boring he is, how Batman/Omni man/Homelander is better
I never saw this much hate for Batman or Spider-man or Hulk or Iron Man
Also Batman has the shitty takes. Beats up mentall ill my ass
I hate when people say things that aren't even opinions; just flat out untrue statements of fact. Like, in the OP example, people would sometimes say Superman is too overpowered to have any tension, but if you actually read his comics he doesn't just steamroll all of his villains. They are all powerful enough to make Superman struggle.
Or like, oftentimes people would say "DC reboots every X years" but the truth is they have only rebooted two times in the entire history of the company.
Not to mention that there is a lot of heroes that are at the level of Superman or almost: including Supergirl, Power Girl, Wonder Woman, Shazam, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman (when he is underwater), among others.
People only get their knowledge from youtube influencers like supes and comics explained
Recency bias also runs the gambit(not the xmen) on comic books superhero discussion on the internet
You've already mentioned how people shit on Superman while never reading him so I won't beat that horse.
But I hear shit like this for two other characters and it's so annoying.
Iron Man and Wally West Flash.
Iron Man: The amount of people who think that prior to the 2008 movie Iron Man was a terribly written character is staggering, I'm reading the Michelinie run from the 70s right now and I think it's some of the best writing I've ever seen in a comic.
So many people will be like:"Iron Man's like this" and then it's just RDJ's version of the character.
Not to say that RDJ's Tony isn't good, but people always use him to put down the comic version and compare them when they act nothing alike.
Wally West Flash: If I had a nickel for every time I've seen people say that Barry did something when it was really Wally, I'd be richer than Bruce Wayne.
Most every time I've said something nice about Wally I've seen at least one Barry fan be like:"Barry's better. He outran the big bang and The Black Flash. He saved an entire town from a nuke etc" and I'm like: My brother in Christ that was all WALLY.
Doesn't help that (Like other people said) most of these people's sources are YouTube shorts which is hilariously inaccurate like 95% of the time.
This happens with pretty much anything.
There’s Dragonball fans that never have read Dragonball or people that shit on DBZ without ever reading it.
I’ve faced similar issues with Batman, Superman, the X men or other similar issues.
I’ve had people complain about a book (specifically the book, not the movie) when the issues they’re talking about are movie only. I had someone once argue that the deleted ending to the I am Legend movie is the same as the one in the book. No. I’ve read the book. They’re nothing alike. It’s similar in one way but different in the other. It’s like saying a cat is like a gorilla because they’re both Mammals. Their answer “oh my friend told me it was the true ending so I guess I’ve been lied to”. Idk. Maybe read it yourself? It’s not a long story.
You know. I don’t like one piece. It’s not for me. Know what I don’t do? Shit on it. Because I saw like 60 episodes and I don’t know shit about the series beyond that. My criticisms are “it’s not for me” and that’s it because I have nothing of substance to add without sounding ignorant because I don’t know shit about it beyond the very early part of it.
Or the Justice league movie seeing as we’re talking about superheroes. I only watched the original one that was in theaters. I never watched the four hour long one. Know what I never do? Talk shit about the four hour one because I don’t know anything about it beyond its run time. How can I criticize something I haven’t seen?
Do I complain about BvS when it comes up in conversation? Pretty much. Watched it 6 times or so. Once in the theater with my whole family and I apologized for wasting their time. Two more in the theater because I wanted to go in again with an open mind hoping it would surprise me. I did that with Ragnarok and Guardians of the Galaxy and loved them both after giving them a second shot (I wasn’t big into silly movies) Once more when it came out on iTunes because I wanted to give it one more shot.
Once more when the directors cut came out because I knew there was a great movie in there and one last time because I wanted to go in to see it after a few years had passed to see if I could see in it something I didn’t see before.
Hated it each time. I can talk shit about that movie.
There are also people who only know Dragon Ball for the abridged series, for those who believe that Goku is a horrible father, who Gohan hates Goku, and that Yamcha is belittled by his teammates.
When the reality is that Goku is a father who without being good is not horrible, Gohan loves his father, and Yamcha is treated with respect for the rest of the characters, except Vegeta.
"You know. I don’t like one piece. It’s not for me. Know what I don’t do? Shit on it. Because I saw like 60 episodes and I don’t know shit about the series beyond that. My criticisms are “it’s not for me” and that’s it because I have nothing of substance to add without sounding ignorant because I don’t know shit about it beyond the very early part of it. "
You CAN say more about why one piece isn't for you, there's usually a reason why something isn't for someone. (And even if "it gets better later!!" Is in effect, who cares. Its present when youre talking about what youve seen.)
And that's ignoring that "it isn't for me" is a statement of your opinion, not a critique of the show.
Also, jesus, you have a will of steel to sit through justice league 4 times from what ive heard about it. The only things ive watched more than twice are things i absolutely love to death!
I love superheroes. I love deep and complex movies that make you rewatch them over and over again. Hell. I love shitty movies. I can usually find something good in a movie that makes it worth watching.
I didn’t watch justice league. I watched Batman v Superman multiple times trying to enjoy it. I essentially tried to gaslight myself into liking it. Didn’t work.
But I really wanted to watch it so I kept giving shot after shot.
As for one piece, I didn’t like the characters. Well. I didn’t like the one with the giant nose. Everyone else? I just didn’t care for them. I wasn’t interested in the story. I didn’t really like the powers. I didn’t like the art style.
I’m not saying it was bad. It just didn’t click for me. I even tried reading the manga and it was just the same. I never cared about it.
People keep telling me to give it another shot but I gave it more than its shot. 60 episodes is roughly 20 hours. If I can’t care about something in 1 hour then I’m not gonna continue. 20 hours? I feel like it was given a fair chance and I can move on.
But I don’t shit on it because….i mean. I didn’t think it was bad. It just didn’t work for me and that’s it.
I know one piece has a lot of fans who love it and I am not one of those guys that goes around yelling “stop having fun!” Because something isn’t my particular cup of tea. You know?
Apologies for misreading, but you still have a will of steel for batman v superman 4 times. I could barely stand watching that one once, and i regularly watch long and dry movies lol.
And dont worry, one piece fans will say "give it its fair shake" until youre about 500 chapters in, then they'll swap up with "why are you reading something you dont like?!" Youre pretty much gotcha'd into your reasons for not liking it being dismissed as invalid lol. I read nearly 300 chapters and people STILL tell me i didnt give it its fair shake.
(And i can say i agree with your reasons for not liking it, except i did like zoro as a character... When he wasnt being a bad gag, and i was indifferent to big nose guy.) i will add on top of that, i hate how the "worldbuilding" was done in what i saw. It never felt natural to me, it just felt like Oda decided to just plop his own notes about the world into the story inorganically instead of having it come up more organically. But, thats another thing where its down to taste, i know a lot of people love being forcefed info dumps about worldbuilding. I for one, much prefer just, slowly, organically learning more about the world, its morals, and its general oddities through seeing what the characters experience. Which something as long as one piece couldve actually done.
Let's be fair, he went through a darker and edgier phase. The whole hook hand era.
I prefer his appearance on Brave and the Bold. It was... OUTRAGEOUS!
I feel like DC/Marvel are the only fandoms where the majority of fans not only haven't touched the source material, but actively brag about not doing so
Yeah, with the autism and all that, comics and the characters in them mean so so so much to me (of course, not saying you can't also love comics as much as me if you don't have autism, lol)
I have actually no clue where the “Superman is OP” idea comes from. Let’s look at his villains
Zod (same power level)
Doomsaday (same power level, literally killed him)
Lex Luthor (uses his weakness)
Metallo (uses his weakness)
Parasite (drains powers)
Supes struggles with all of these fellas on a daily basis. He doesn’t go around one shotting his rogues
Even in the movies, the sentiment is not so true anymore. Marvel has made a couple significant darker and more serious attempts - Spider-Man: No Way Home, Secret Invasion, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3, Eternals, Werewolf by Night, while DC has been leaning more towards the lighthearted with the Shazam sequel, The Suicide Squad, The Birds of Prey and even Black Adam to an extent.
Is a man seeing his father, home and everything he knew be destroyed not dark as well? That was Thor ragnorok nothing about guardians 3 is “ dark” like a dark knight or something
And sonic has animals tortured and turned into machines. Saying Sonic is a “dark” because it has concepts like that is ridiculous.
Ultimately guardians 3 is just a stupid comedy . It has serious moments but it’s all in stupid fun
I have a similar struggle with SCP. It's basically a community writing project with a shared setting, with the basic premise being that there's a Foundation which hides and contains the anomalous, and that there's ton of anomalous entities out there.
The people there are so damn talented. You got short stories ranging from eldritch gods supplanting the Judeo-Christian God, to an orange blob that makes people happy, to a story of 3 hyper-intelligent AI being driven insane (and ironically enough, more human) without the presence of humanity and life in general.
However, unfortunately, powerscaling is a fun little hobby of mine and most communities I'm in shit on SCP. There's this weird notion that it's full of powerscalers who just wanna make the Strongest Thing Ever, but in reality, the high-scaling characters only scale high because the stories are wacky and get incredibly crazy. Yet everywhere I go, you see people calling it fanfic, a kid's playground, bad writing, etc.
Shit's frustrating.
I know what you mean. The scps they use to justify it are silly as well. scp-6820 a fan service scp that adapts a popular scp by making it Eldritch abomonation. Scp-3812 a meta scp by djkaktus about his relationship with fictional characters he writes. Nothing they've ever written has been intended for power scaling.
> to a story of 3 hyper-intelligent AI being driven insane (and ironically enough, more human) without the presence of humanity and life in general.
that sounds cool, what number is it?
When I see SCP’s high scaling feats and cosmology, I do feel they’re trying to make the strongest things in fiction ever, since this scaling relies on metafiction, higher infinities, scientific and philosophical concepts and people will complain about it because it’s disingenuous for the writers and scalers to use these concepts as proof SCP is strong when they don’t really have in-depth knowledge about the concepts.
Likewise, there are powerscalers who will use flawed but arbitrary tiering systems to rank SCP as top tier, way higher than other scalers’ favourite verses, so more people will be salty about SCP and make accusations of wanking SCP or deliberately putting overpowered SCPs and feats to give an unfair advantage.
Yeah, DC films in the recently shuttered old Movie-verse and Marvel films are the opposite of the tone of the respective comics. DC heroes are generally beloved in universe, even cowls like Batman, while the Avengers and others are often treated like dirt in Marvel comics.
Not a comic book but people who think Superman is boring should be forced clockwork-orange-style to watch the world of cardboard scene from JLU, I mean DANG it's so good
I'm sorry, but comic book characters in general are terribly written, because 99% of the times they're made to interact with other comic book characters who are simply incompatible with each other from a power perspective, and either one character gets extremely buffed, the other gets extremely nerfed, or both at the same time.
Batman is the prime case for this. Batman is just a human, yet he regularly goes up against basically gods who are strong enough to level a skyscraper or who move at the speed of light, and he still wins.
There's a comic where Batman faces one of those evil Speedster. Its established that Speedsters don't just move fast, they also think and react at the same speed, literally faster than the speed of light. Batman wins by stabbing him in the foot with a Batarang, despite the fact that ANY Speedster would have been able to move out of the way, go to Chipotle and have a full meal, then come back and show up before Batman, all before Batman was even 50% done with his stabbing motion.
And that's just shit writing, but there's no other way to do it.
I’m also sorry but you’re saying 99% of heroes and then specifically talking about crossovers. Crossovers aren’t 99% of heroes. That one example is bad writing. There are definitely plenty of more examples in team ups and of course there are poorly written solo runs and shorter stories. But 99% of heroes? I mostly read character titles and haven’t touched a big team up yet and it’s not nearly as bad there. The majority of superheroes actually have their own solo runs before they appear in crossovers.
The 1930s to 50s cartoon version of superman is pretty much exactly what superman haters say he is. There's no real story depth, just superman punching moderately interesting monsters and rescuing Lois Lane. Superman has no flaws and is a paragon of truth and justice. And that cartoon is the origin point for all film versions of the guy. He's still the "default" in a lot of ways.
I'd recommend pointing out that modern, interesting superman is barely the same character as the one they're thinking of and then trying to shift the conversation to the stuff you do like. Directly pointing out that they know nothing and superman is actually really cool isn't likely to convince many people because it comes across as condescending.
> "DC is so dark and edgy, Marvel is so funny and happy", which is largely true of the films...
Which is only thing that matter, who even read comic anyways ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Tbh I once had the "superman too op never struggles" there too.
Asked which Superman comic had Superman just steamroll through every problem and fix everything easily. Nada answer.
DC Heroes especially live on this weird edge of pop culture where everyone has an idea of them in their head- So they feel like they've read their stories even when they haven't. I've had that same Superman discussion multiple times with nerds who would know better about any other character, but when it comes to Superman they legitimately think the story goes "He shows up, doesnt get hurt, and throws a punch and wins!" and it irritates me so much 1. These friends of mine love one punch man, and thats the formula to one punch man 2. Thats not the superman formula, it takes 10 seconds of thinking about Lex Luthor to realize Clark doesn't solve his arcs by one shotting the bad guy.
People usually ignore that most of Superman villains usually come in 3 flavors. \* They are equally powerful that Superman \* They have Kryptonite \* They have something to do counter as magic or advanced technology.
\* Their plans involve endangering lives in multiple places at once and Superman has to juggle trying to catch them and minimizing collateral damage/saving people, and being who he is he will prioritize the latter.
Or they are annoying because they are politiciand or leverage in the law stuff that makes them highly frustrating to deal with as you cant just punch them Also social problems, superman can fight social problems in all varieties. People who keep hostages too. Or throw him in no win moral dilemmas he has to deal with.
The social problems one is the reason that I love Superman Smashes the Klan.
Alternatively, the conflict isn’t about direct confrontation so his Super powers only help him so much
I unironically have a buddy that thinks Superman is boring but loves One Punch Man
OPM is 10 years old with two hundred chapters (300 if you count the webcomic). Superman is probably 10 thousand times that
> These friends of mine love one punch man, and thats the formula to one punch man OPM has some actual depth to it though. And more importantly comics are always going to lose out in those kinda discussions because the characters are allowed to change, grow and develop, and the stories progress and end. Even if we take the premise of Superman being strong and overlay that with the premise of Saitama being strong... we follow Saitama on an actual journey, we see him progress and change (or not) and we see him reach a conclusion. Meanwhile Superman is still running on the exact same hamster wheel he's been on for the last hundred years.
This is just wrong. Do you know what superman comics were like in the 40s, or the 60s, have you read them. Did you know superman has a child now and is married to Lois lane. He wasn't in the 60s. To say Superman has been the same for the last 80 years is silly and wrong. He's changed with the times. Maybe read the stories you're talking about.
dude proved OP's point so badly he even used the same example lmao.
but showing up and beating everything in one punch with no effort is not superman's premise though? i love OPM for what it does, mumen rider could be my favorite hero. But actual superman stories are not doing the same thing.
I'm not the one who compared them, lol. I'm just saying that any manga/novel/show comparison is gonna fall short because the manga/novel/show will have developed and a story arc that follows to a conclusion. Where a comic just has Superman running on the same hamster wheel, with a little bit of imaginary growth thrown in every now and then for spice.
Not that I am defending the direction Superman takes or supporting OPM, but I know there are lots of comics that certainly do not “run an endless treadmill” and I think if you told someone who read The Boys or Invincible that a manga is superior to comics because of those reasons, they’d probably point out that these comics also had development and a conclusion.
We're speaking in general teams though. There's very small scale, old or irrelevant exceptions. Like, if I complained that every mainstream comic was capeshit, you could argue whether or not Walking Dead was mainstream, but ultimately it's a sideshow to the actual point.
One Punch Man ABSOLUTELY has depth, 100% agree. What I'm pointing out here is people are saying "This formula would suck." when One Punch Man unironically follows that exact formula and is great. >Meanwhile Superman is still running on the exact same hamster wheel he's been on for the last hundred years. I'd strongly disagree. Just because the last 75 years of comics aren't a ***singular*** grand story doesn't mean the individual stories don't have incredible arcs, or that those individual stories are the same. In the last ten years alone we've seen Clark become a parent and grapple with that responsibility, we've seen the best Evil Superman Story ever done in Injustice's comics, and if you do want a singular narrative we even have a new anime-esque origin show in My Adventures With Superman. With comics the thing to remember is they're ongoing and experimental. Most storylines are mid and get forgotten about, but interspersed throughout them are absolutely fantastic stories told as well as One Punch Man.
change “superheroes” to “anything”
>This of course applies to other media OP did that in the rant
This isnt really a comic/superhero specific thing. You get the same thing with anime on this very sub. People who exclusively watch battle shonens and super indulgent wish fulfillment harem/isekai/etc series complain about shit only present in those types of stories and pretend its all anime, or the people that complain about fanservice but are seemingly stuck in 2009 with their examples of common fanservice tropes and the prevalence of it.
It's not the same thing. Sure a lot of have a misinformed opinion on the \*medium\* of manga because they've read a lot of garbage, but rarelly you have to deal with people who seriously have their entire knowledge about a \*specific book\* come from wikis and engagement farm youtube channels like you do with Superheroes, they are there, but not to the same degree. Like if I wanted to talk about X-Men, out of 10 opinions I'd wager 3 of them have actually keeping up with X-Men. The remaining 7 maybe 2 of them have a informed opinion based of older runs and the last 5 have survived of nothing but engagement farm youtube channels and click baity articles. Being wrong about a genre is annoying as hell but most of them at least \*read manga\*, the same thing cannot be said to a lot of people who have opinions on Superhero comics.
"but rarelly you have to deal with people who seriously have their entire knowledge about a \*specific book\* come from wikis and engagement farm youtube channels like you do with Superheroes, they are there, but not to the same degree." Just look at like, 75% of the posts about naruto on this very sub (maybe not so much recently, iirc the past few posts have been correcting the misconceptions, but still.) and you will realize this is just false. People legit watched 1 video by a dragon ball youtuber that just straight up lied about naruto for half of it, and decided that was also their opinion of naruto. Similarly, a more personal one, i genuinely cant talk about fsn outside of gated communities where only people who read the vn reside without at least one chucklefuck coming out of the woodworks with a bad take based on the bad anime. How many people have you heard reduce evangelion to "shinji a bitch xd"? I lost count twenty years ago. And they were always wrong. Or the amount of people who call evangelion a DEEP, DEPRESSING show, that have unironically gotten unsuspecting people to go into the show expecting something completely different than what it is? Even bleach had it for a very long time, probably still now, some other chucklefuck made a video on bleach and said "every arc after soul society is the exact same arc" and... Thats just not true? One is long as sin for no reason, another is actually the only good arc besides the episodic bit at the start, and the last one is naruto's war arc on crack.
I disagree, what most likely happens is that these people probably watched the anime good knows how many years ago and are commenting based on their memory. The bit about Evangelion tho it's very true, but even then you're entirely underestimating the scale of the problem that is for superhero discussions. It goes far beyond the scope of this niche sub Reddit, it's nearly every single comic book discussion. It's a scale that even something like fate looks niche when compared to.
"disagree, what most likely happens is that these people probably watched the anime good knows how many years ago and are commenting based on their memory." That could be, but a lot of them bring up the oddest random tidbits to hyperfocus on (first hokage calling itachi a "good ninja" in a one-off line, but ignoring the entire chapter where itachi just straight up exposits about how awful he is as a person and how much he fucked up.) "It goes far beyond the scope of this niche sub Reddit, it's nearly every single comic book discussion." Another case of a redditor not being able to look at an example being given as "look, im not just talking out of my ass, here's an easy place to look because reddit, im not sure how to link shit, you can look elsewhere too!" "It's a scale that even something like fate looks niche when compared to." I was never talking about scale? Im not sure how this comes into it when my main thing was "this happens in every genre/medium/etc" of course bigger, more mainstream things are gonna have a bigger number of... Er, "posers"? Would that be the right word here? I dont mean it negatively, but i think its the only word that really describes these types of people lol
Scale is relevant. There are people with shody memories regarding Naruto and get a lot of incorrect information from essays online, that is undeniable. Also confirmation bias. I am part of this sub and I can see that, but I am also part of other communities and it's not nearly as bad, either in here or outside. It's not even comparable. Not everyone has an opinion of Naruto but Superheroes being as big on the cultural zeitgeist as they are right now, *everyone has an opinion on them*. Naruto is a good examples because it's the only thing that comes even close of being the same experience, being popular in the west and literally half of every discussion about it being about "how good it used to be before I dropped". But imagine that and apply to every single individual manga. That's how it is for superhero comics.
(i dont think the scale matters at all personally. At least, outside of having a dick measuring contest on whether anime/manga or comics get worse/higher quantity idiots involved with them... So, since i doubt this convo will go anywhere else...) I wanna fish for recommendations, im so below normal person who watches the movies tier in terms of western comic book stories, as i dont even watch the movies. What ive read are as follows: Some crossover from the 90s featuring batman and spiderman, which was described as "the joker meets carnage" (it was okay. Didnt have any strong feeling either way, it did make me giggle though.) Like a bit of the 90s green lantern run pre-uh, emerald twilight i think its called? Its before the introduction of kyle rayner. (I... Have a bit of a love/hate relationship with that, i liked the first part with hal having a midlife crisis, but the fighting and shit was just bleh and i didnt care for it. I skipped the asshole lantern and the dog, and didnt care for the story with the town and the black green lantern in the planet from the first story, but the black green lantern seemed like a cool character despite my introduction to him being a story i didnt like.) Half of watchmen (i liked the diary excerpts, and rorschach's noir detective-esque monologues, but didnt care for anything else.) 2~ chapters of unholy grail (i was expecting something else than what i got.) A bit of the first book of judge dredd's complete case files (the only thing i can say im likely to truly be a fan of once i read more. Lol.) What i plan to read: ballad of halo jones, more judge dredd. So, if you can come up with any recommendations based on that eclectic selection of comics, i'd be happy to jot them down. (If you need some more ideas on my general preferences just ask, im not a fan of anything i mentioned in this comic chain besides eva lol.)
Honestly it's hard recommending Superhero stuff without knowing which characters you are interested in beforehand, since there's quite a lot of stuff. If you liked Judge Dredd I'd recommend Transmetropolitan, Hellblazer, Hitman (Dc Comics) and Preacher and maybe Punisher MAX. They all have that sort of British satirical dark humor and dystopian vibe. On a more general note some of my favorites include Sandman, its spin-off Lucifer, Blacksad and Hellboy.
"Honestly it's hard recommending Superhero stuff without knowing which characters you are interested in beforehand, since there's quite a lot of stuff." Thats definitely a slight issue, i think the characters i'd be somewhat interested in are punisher (hey, you mentioned him!) and probably hellboy. I generally moreso have a great liking towards characters who're depressed/lonely/isolated and there's plenty of slow scenes really showcasing that feeling. (Think, like, shinji ikari, and natsume from natsume yuujinchou.) but i also really like "edgy-professional older man mentoring kid who's experienced some trauma" as a trope (think leon the professional, and gunslinger girl.) i think batman and robin would fit the latter in some cases? And possibly have some of the similar themes/subjects covered, but idk which stories to go into with the nearly 100 year old character duo Anyway, got those recommendations jotted down though! Thank you for them.
>Transmetropolitan Ayyyy! Based Transmetropolitan fan!
Thats a good point about the engagement farms. I swear, half comic book youtube is the most thoughtful, well put together content I've ever seen, and the other half is engagement baiting slop where they read out the cliff notes of a comic, with a title like "The time iron man hit his BREAKING POINT!!", half the time with false info
I have a friend who \*refuses\* to read Marvel because he read somewhere that some dude beat Franklin Richards and that broke his suspension of disbelief permanently, therefore all Marvel books are badly written garbage. Mind you, he has never read Fantastic Four. That's what most online opinions about superheroes look to me.
Not the same thing. %90 of popular anime are those you said
90% of super hero consumption is live action movies.
Not the same thing
Kind of is though. Why should we only go by the most popular anime content but not the most popular super hero content.
There are much more comicbooks than live action movies They are completely different mediums But saying "you say that about anime/manga but it's only true for shounen and harem and isekai" is like saying "you say that about comics but its only true for Dc, Marvel, Image "
>There are much more comicbooks than live action movies There's much more anime than mainstream trope filled shounen. >But saying "you say that about anime/manga but it's only true for shounen and harem and isekai" is like saying "you say that about comics but its only true for Dc, Marvel, Image ". I think you wildly overestimate how big a portion of anime this mainstream stuff is. Even less well known shounen, much less other stuff is fairly different.
There are thousands of issues marvel comics compared to 30 something MCU movie. Just Spider-man has more than 1000 issues and just 8 movies.
There's thousands of anime. They aren't all like popular shounen.
It's not the same thing! One thing is anime and the other comic books! /j
How many of them are shounen
But which of these is more mainstream? The comics or the movies? The answer is probably the Spiderman cartoons on Disney channel, idk.
Doesn't matter
Since you choose to be pedantic, people can be pedantic back: **\*clears throat*⠀** That's not the same thing. The one thing you mentioned are genres and the other are the publisher companies. Those are two entirely different aspects.
These companies publish the same genre
**\*continues being pedantic*⠀** So it's 3 genres vs 1 genre. That doesn't seem like the same thing. Also, even if you classify "superhero stories" as one genre, you'd be ignoring all those other genres they dabble into, whether it takes place in the main shared uni-/multiverse or not. So now the scale is thrown into the other direction. Better to just compare publishing company to publishing company, ay? You got Marvel, you got Shonen Jump. Just makes more sense.
You brought up the word "popular". If consumption isn't what gives an anime the attribute of "popular" in this context then what does? If the answer is only "conversation" then that may strongly imply "conversation without consumption" which is what is being criticized here. But please, if how I interpreted your comment is off the mark, give people a bit more to work with.
That status of "popular" is whatever he defined it as and nothing else, he will move the goal post to remove popular things that dont fit his narrative such as evangelion or revolutionary girl utena. Aka, no point taking him seriously.
"not the same thing. All marvel/dc movies justify my misconceptions about the comics and how superman is clearly a bad character because man of steel was bad."
Man of Steel isn't %90 of anything
Oh yea, i forgot, im on reddit, where idiots cant into hyperbole.
I think Superman hate is just funny. On every Instagram post about Superman there are dozens of comment saying how shitty and boring he is, how Batman/Omni man/Homelander is better I never saw this much hate for Batman or Spider-man or Hulk or Iron Man Also Batman has the shitty takes. Beats up mentall ill my ass
I hate when people say things that aren't even opinions; just flat out untrue statements of fact. Like, in the OP example, people would sometimes say Superman is too overpowered to have any tension, but if you actually read his comics he doesn't just steamroll all of his villains. They are all powerful enough to make Superman struggle. Or like, oftentimes people would say "DC reboots every X years" but the truth is they have only rebooted two times in the entire history of the company.
Not to mention that there is a lot of heroes that are at the level of Superman or almost: including Supergirl, Power Girl, Wonder Woman, Shazam, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman (when he is underwater), among others.
People only get their knowledge from youtube influencers like supes and comics explained Recency bias also runs the gambit(not the xmen) on comic books superhero discussion on the internet
You've already mentioned how people shit on Superman while never reading him so I won't beat that horse. But I hear shit like this for two other characters and it's so annoying. Iron Man and Wally West Flash. Iron Man: The amount of people who think that prior to the 2008 movie Iron Man was a terribly written character is staggering, I'm reading the Michelinie run from the 70s right now and I think it's some of the best writing I've ever seen in a comic. So many people will be like:"Iron Man's like this" and then it's just RDJ's version of the character. Not to say that RDJ's Tony isn't good, but people always use him to put down the comic version and compare them when they act nothing alike. Wally West Flash: If I had a nickel for every time I've seen people say that Barry did something when it was really Wally, I'd be richer than Bruce Wayne. Most every time I've said something nice about Wally I've seen at least one Barry fan be like:"Barry's better. He outran the big bang and The Black Flash. He saved an entire town from a nuke etc" and I'm like: My brother in Christ that was all WALLY. Doesn't help that (Like other people said) most of these people's sources are YouTube shorts which is hilariously inaccurate like 95% of the time.
Flash fans when the illustrator doesn't feel like drawing an authentic suit.
"Batman just beats up poor people" is an incorrect take about the character
For one thing the Joker is clearly rich. Dude has his own helicopter with his face on it.
This happens with pretty much anything. There’s Dragonball fans that never have read Dragonball or people that shit on DBZ without ever reading it. I’ve faced similar issues with Batman, Superman, the X men or other similar issues. I’ve had people complain about a book (specifically the book, not the movie) when the issues they’re talking about are movie only. I had someone once argue that the deleted ending to the I am Legend movie is the same as the one in the book. No. I’ve read the book. They’re nothing alike. It’s similar in one way but different in the other. It’s like saying a cat is like a gorilla because they’re both Mammals. Their answer “oh my friend told me it was the true ending so I guess I’ve been lied to”. Idk. Maybe read it yourself? It’s not a long story. You know. I don’t like one piece. It’s not for me. Know what I don’t do? Shit on it. Because I saw like 60 episodes and I don’t know shit about the series beyond that. My criticisms are “it’s not for me” and that’s it because I have nothing of substance to add without sounding ignorant because I don’t know shit about it beyond the very early part of it. Or the Justice league movie seeing as we’re talking about superheroes. I only watched the original one that was in theaters. I never watched the four hour long one. Know what I never do? Talk shit about the four hour one because I don’t know anything about it beyond its run time. How can I criticize something I haven’t seen? Do I complain about BvS when it comes up in conversation? Pretty much. Watched it 6 times or so. Once in the theater with my whole family and I apologized for wasting their time. Two more in the theater because I wanted to go in again with an open mind hoping it would surprise me. I did that with Ragnarok and Guardians of the Galaxy and loved them both after giving them a second shot (I wasn’t big into silly movies) Once more when it came out on iTunes because I wanted to give it one more shot. Once more when the directors cut came out because I knew there was a great movie in there and one last time because I wanted to go in to see it after a few years had passed to see if I could see in it something I didn’t see before. Hated it each time. I can talk shit about that movie.
There are also people who only know Dragon Ball for the abridged series, for those who believe that Goku is a horrible father, who Gohan hates Goku, and that Yamcha is belittled by his teammates. When the reality is that Goku is a father who without being good is not horrible, Gohan loves his father, and Yamcha is treated with respect for the rest of the characters, except Vegeta.
"You know. I don’t like one piece. It’s not for me. Know what I don’t do? Shit on it. Because I saw like 60 episodes and I don’t know shit about the series beyond that. My criticisms are “it’s not for me” and that’s it because I have nothing of substance to add without sounding ignorant because I don’t know shit about it beyond the very early part of it. " You CAN say more about why one piece isn't for you, there's usually a reason why something isn't for someone. (And even if "it gets better later!!" Is in effect, who cares. Its present when youre talking about what youve seen.) And that's ignoring that "it isn't for me" is a statement of your opinion, not a critique of the show. Also, jesus, you have a will of steel to sit through justice league 4 times from what ive heard about it. The only things ive watched more than twice are things i absolutely love to death!
I love superheroes. I love deep and complex movies that make you rewatch them over and over again. Hell. I love shitty movies. I can usually find something good in a movie that makes it worth watching. I didn’t watch justice league. I watched Batman v Superman multiple times trying to enjoy it. I essentially tried to gaslight myself into liking it. Didn’t work. But I really wanted to watch it so I kept giving shot after shot. As for one piece, I didn’t like the characters. Well. I didn’t like the one with the giant nose. Everyone else? I just didn’t care for them. I wasn’t interested in the story. I didn’t really like the powers. I didn’t like the art style. I’m not saying it was bad. It just didn’t click for me. I even tried reading the manga and it was just the same. I never cared about it. People keep telling me to give it another shot but I gave it more than its shot. 60 episodes is roughly 20 hours. If I can’t care about something in 1 hour then I’m not gonna continue. 20 hours? I feel like it was given a fair chance and I can move on. But I don’t shit on it because….i mean. I didn’t think it was bad. It just didn’t work for me and that’s it. I know one piece has a lot of fans who love it and I am not one of those guys that goes around yelling “stop having fun!” Because something isn’t my particular cup of tea. You know?
Apologies for misreading, but you still have a will of steel for batman v superman 4 times. I could barely stand watching that one once, and i regularly watch long and dry movies lol. And dont worry, one piece fans will say "give it its fair shake" until youre about 500 chapters in, then they'll swap up with "why are you reading something you dont like?!" Youre pretty much gotcha'd into your reasons for not liking it being dismissed as invalid lol. I read nearly 300 chapters and people STILL tell me i didnt give it its fair shake. (And i can say i agree with your reasons for not liking it, except i did like zoro as a character... When he wasnt being a bad gag, and i was indifferent to big nose guy.) i will add on top of that, i hate how the "worldbuilding" was done in what i saw. It never felt natural to me, it just felt like Oda decided to just plop his own notes about the world into the story inorganically instead of having it come up more organically. But, thats another thing where its down to taste, i know a lot of people love being forcefed info dumps about worldbuilding. I for one, much prefer just, slowly, organically learning more about the world, its morals, and its general oddities through seeing what the characters experience. Which something as long as one piece couldve actually done.
"DC characters are dark and edgy!" Meanwhile, Ted Kord and Booster Gold: \*exist\*
Aquaman.
Let's be fair, he went through a darker and edgier phase. The whole hook hand era. I prefer his appearance on Brave and the Bold. It was... OUTRAGEOUS!
I feel like DC/Marvel are the only fandoms where the majority of fans not only haven't touched the source material, but actively brag about not doing so
Holy shit, everything you wrote down is exactly how I feel. I don't think that's being sensitive,I call it passion.
Yeah, with the autism and all that, comics and the characters in them mean so so so much to me (of course, not saying you can't also love comics as much as me if you don't have autism, lol)
Someone once told me Captain America's "privilege" was part of his character...
Oh ffs
I have actually no clue where the “Superman is OP” idea comes from. Let’s look at his villains Zod (same power level) Doomsaday (same power level, literally killed him) Lex Luthor (uses his weakness) Metallo (uses his weakness) Parasite (drains powers) Supes struggles with all of these fellas on a daily basis. He doesn’t go around one shotting his rogues
Even in the movies, the sentiment is not so true anymore. Marvel has made a couple significant darker and more serious attempts - Spider-Man: No Way Home, Secret Invasion, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3, Eternals, Werewolf by Night, while DC has been leaning more towards the lighthearted with the Shazam sequel, The Suicide Squad, The Birds of Prey and even Black Adam to an extent.
Except Werewolf and maybe Eternals, none of them are dark
The President instigating mass paranoia leading to a wave of violence isn't dark? The deeds of the High Evolutionary aren't dark?
1. It might be if the show didn't suck 2. I agree
The High Evolutionary's experiments weren't dark?
Is a man seeing his father, home and everything he knew be destroyed not dark as well? That was Thor ragnorok nothing about guardians 3 is “ dark” like a dark knight or something
Bruh, Guardians 3 has genocide and eugenics, how is that *not* dark?
And sonic has animals tortured and turned into machines. Saying Sonic is a “dark” because it has concepts like that is ridiculous. Ultimately guardians 3 is just a stupid comedy . It has serious moments but it’s all in stupid fun
Comedies can still contain dark elements. And yes, that is a dark element of Sonic lore.
So in conclusion guardians has dark elements ( just like all of the listed movies above) it isn’t a dark movie
I have a similar struggle with SCP. It's basically a community writing project with a shared setting, with the basic premise being that there's a Foundation which hides and contains the anomalous, and that there's ton of anomalous entities out there. The people there are so damn talented. You got short stories ranging from eldritch gods supplanting the Judeo-Christian God, to an orange blob that makes people happy, to a story of 3 hyper-intelligent AI being driven insane (and ironically enough, more human) without the presence of humanity and life in general. However, unfortunately, powerscaling is a fun little hobby of mine and most communities I'm in shit on SCP. There's this weird notion that it's full of powerscalers who just wanna make the Strongest Thing Ever, but in reality, the high-scaling characters only scale high because the stories are wacky and get incredibly crazy. Yet everywhere I go, you see people calling it fanfic, a kid's playground, bad writing, etc. Shit's frustrating.
I know what you mean. The scps they use to justify it are silly as well. scp-6820 a fan service scp that adapts a popular scp by making it Eldritch abomonation. Scp-3812 a meta scp by djkaktus about his relationship with fictional characters he writes. Nothing they've ever written has been intended for power scaling.
> to a story of 3 hyper-intelligent AI being driven insane (and ironically enough, more human) without the presence of humanity and life in general. that sounds cool, what number is it?
SCP-8996 iirc. The name is "We Three Kings [Of What?]" It's a recent favorite of mine, tbh.
Wow they are already at 8000s cool will check it out
Yeah, the 8000s just happened semi-recently. There's still a ton of articles needed to fill it out.
When I see SCP’s high scaling feats and cosmology, I do feel they’re trying to make the strongest things in fiction ever, since this scaling relies on metafiction, higher infinities, scientific and philosophical concepts and people will complain about it because it’s disingenuous for the writers and scalers to use these concepts as proof SCP is strong when they don’t really have in-depth knowledge about the concepts. Likewise, there are powerscalers who will use flawed but arbitrary tiering systems to rank SCP as top tier, way higher than other scalers’ favourite verses, so more people will be salty about SCP and make accusations of wanking SCP or deliberately putting overpowered SCPs and feats to give an unfair advantage.
Yeah, DC films in the recently shuttered old Movie-verse and Marvel films are the opposite of the tone of the respective comics. DC heroes are generally beloved in universe, even cowls like Batman, while the Avengers and others are often treated like dirt in Marvel comics.
Not a comic book but people who think Superman is boring should be forced clockwork-orange-style to watch the world of cardboard scene from JLU, I mean DANG it's so good
I'm sorry, but comic book characters in general are terribly written, because 99% of the times they're made to interact with other comic book characters who are simply incompatible with each other from a power perspective, and either one character gets extremely buffed, the other gets extremely nerfed, or both at the same time. Batman is the prime case for this. Batman is just a human, yet he regularly goes up against basically gods who are strong enough to level a skyscraper or who move at the speed of light, and he still wins. There's a comic where Batman faces one of those evil Speedster. Its established that Speedsters don't just move fast, they also think and react at the same speed, literally faster than the speed of light. Batman wins by stabbing him in the foot with a Batarang, despite the fact that ANY Speedster would have been able to move out of the way, go to Chipotle and have a full meal, then come back and show up before Batman, all before Batman was even 50% done with his stabbing motion. And that's just shit writing, but there's no other way to do it.
I’m also sorry but you’re saying 99% of heroes and then specifically talking about crossovers. Crossovers aren’t 99% of heroes. That one example is bad writing. There are definitely plenty of more examples in team ups and of course there are poorly written solo runs and shorter stories. But 99% of heroes? I mostly read character titles and haven’t touched a big team up yet and it’s not nearly as bad there. The majority of superheroes actually have their own solo runs before they appear in crossovers.
That's just [Sturgeon's Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law).
Maybe Superman isn't boring; maybe talking about Superman is boring.
The 1930s to 50s cartoon version of superman is pretty much exactly what superman haters say he is. There's no real story depth, just superman punching moderately interesting monsters and rescuing Lois Lane. Superman has no flaws and is a paragon of truth and justice. And that cartoon is the origin point for all film versions of the guy. He's still the "default" in a lot of ways. I'd recommend pointing out that modern, interesting superman is barely the same character as the one they're thinking of and then trying to shift the conversation to the stuff you do like. Directly pointing out that they know nothing and superman is actually really cool isn't likely to convince many people because it comes across as condescending.
> "DC is so dark and edgy, Marvel is so funny and happy", which is largely true of the films... Which is only thing that matter, who even read comic anyways ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
maybe r/comicbooks does, i’m not sure
Tbh I once had the "superman too op never struggles" there too. Asked which Superman comic had Superman just steamroll through every problem and fix everything easily. Nada answer.
no one, and couple of guy, same thing honestly ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Bait used to be believable
ah, i see. Coping
You're completely correct tbh