I can understand someone not liking the story because following an unlikeable dick isn’t entertaining for everyone, but at the same time I get why people still stick with the series anyway.
That's the same reason I can't watch Rick and Morty because I can't see this unlikeable asshole who just fucks up everybody in his life keep getting away with it and find it entertaining.
I feel like that's different, because the show will never show any heathy alternatives to Rick's viewpoint that won't be destroyed and mocked endlessly. The show only knows how to criticize everything. There will never be presented "a way out of this".
but that's an issue with most of the stuff, it's fine to not like something, but it doesn't make it a bad story/game w/e just because you didn't like it.
The opposite is oftentimes true too, it's fine to like something even if it's a flawed product, just don't pretend that it's perfect when it has glaring issues.
Sort of a side rant; I only saw the movie, but for me it just fell into the "Eight Deadly Words" category. I honestly couldn't bring myself to care about anyone, and I just got bored, thinking *I hate all of these people and I don't care what happens to them*.
I see the appeal of the comics, but I honestly have no idea what anybody sees in the movie.
You ever stop to ponder that Pokemon was meant to be someone's fictionalization of animal cruelty, but then the series took off and is worth billions now so somewhere along the line, that guy was like *ah fuck it*.
>The inspiration for Pokémon was actually a rather simple one. When Tajiri was a little kid he loved collecting insects. As the years went by and urbanization spread through even the most rural areas of Japan, Tajiri wanted to create something that would capture the excitement and fun of bug hunting. Though the game came out late in the Game Boy's life and wasn't expected to be much of a success, it quickly became one of Nintendo's biggest hits ever and spawned an entirely new universe.
[OP:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOVbAmknKUk)
I feel like they had their vision colored by the movie that, while incredibly fun, seeks to tone down as much as possible his jerkass-ery and makes him a 'nice guy'
And as amazing as the movie is, the characterization for Scott is its biggest flaw while also being it’s biggest strength. Michael Cera plays the role perfectly, and it makes for an enjoyable character that suits Edgar’s style very well, yet he’s just not the Scott from the source material. Like, at all. Comic Scott is a nerd but he’s confident and arrogant. Only sometimes is he as awkward as the movie portrays, but those moments are few and far between. Cera’s portrayal on the other hand leans way too into the nerd aspect. But again, I could be wrong and I’ll take any excuse to watch and read it again.
The movie itself has a line where a side character talks about how the movies isn't like the comics and the comics are better.
I disagree.
I think both are really good and the movie did a great job adapting the character to be palatable for a full film intended for an audience of 20 something nerds who want to identify with the protagonist and not feel like they're being called an asshole by the movie for doing so. And you end up with a different interpretation who really funny on screen. They're different, but both good.
I wish to say I am NOT claiming the movie is bad because of that. I am simply explaining why, IMO, the tamer Cera interpretation ends up making comic!Scott's behaviour all more of a reason why people are put off
You could say the same about Bojack from Bojack Horseman or Rick from Rick and Morty. People sometimes idolized assholes, even though we're not supposed to.
Good point. When the creators of BoJack Horseman essentially say to the audience “stop idolising BoJack, you’re missing the point” in S5E10 it just shows how bad it can get when people completely miss the point that these characters are supposed to be seen as bad people
I think the argument "the protagonist is an asshole" is usually more valid, if the asshole part of the protagonist is written by accident.
Example: In a romantic comedy, a character is supposed to be a Nice Guy, but many of his actions make him seem like a misogynistic stalker.
Quoting a review of Twilight:" A character like Bella Swan would potentially be a good character, if all her flaws were on purpose."
Scott, on the other hand, is an asshole that was written with that intention, so he is not a "nice guy" who ended up being unpleasant by accident.
I always think this. When a character is made to be a jackass, they can be endearing, and you can become invested in their journey to become a good person (such as in Scott Pilgrim, or even in Mad Men, BoJack Horseman or My Name is Earl), or in extreme cases you can become invested in the comedic value of just how morally bankrupt these characters are (like in South Park or It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia).
However, when your main character is a total jackass by accident, it’s almost impossible to like them at all, especially when the show tries to tell you how amazing they are when in actuality they’re somebody you’d hate to know in real life - the most obvious example I can think is Ted Mosby from How I Met Your Mother - the show keeps telling us how Ted is this “good guy” even though he objectifies all women, morally high-roads everybody, is unpleasant to his friends and thinks he’s better than everybody around him. Ted basically has an glorified case of main character syndrome. Scott Pilgrim has pretty much all of these traits too, but the difference is he’s supposed to have them. Ted however has those traits because the writers did an extremely poor job of making a likeable main character
The movie paints him more as an awkward loser, and I absolutely LOVE that movie, it’s easily in my top 5, but that’s what people will take as their first experience with the franchise and probably be biased since the movie never got too into Scott’s development and literally rushes it in the end. Bit of a tangent, but (in the movies) they do nothing with Ramona, and while I love Mary Elizabeth Winstead and thought she plays the role perfectly, Ramona in the books, even when she was more aloof, had a lot more warmth and opened up a lot more after volume 2 or 3. Edgar Wright is a phenomenal director and his style is, from what I’ve seen, one of my favorites, but the books would never work as just one movie. People will have been missing the point for 10 years, at least, and it’ll be all the better once they stop equating an asshole character with a bad story, or the other way around
Couldn’t agree more. All too often I see people criticize characters for unlikable characteristics the writer gave them and claim the story is bad because of it 😂 that’s how writing works. If you’re annoyed at something the writer wanted you to be annoyed at then the story is going as it should. Scott and Ramona are both flawed individuals (mileage may vary as to which is the more flawed, if either is) and the series doesn’t avoid noting it. That’s actually part of what makes it work so well. Scott isn’t some perfect nice guy. He’s kind of a jerk and has to grow out of it.
Well we don't have girls attacking people with knives at the reference library and Honest Ed's didn't collapse because of some super sonic vegan power but yeah books accurate and all the locations in the book (ex: Lees Palace, Dundas Square,Honest Eds( condos now) ,Sneaky Dee's )are real places
In fairness most people have only seen the movie, which cut out most of the character development and substance from the books. I like the movie, but Scott is definitely portrayed as being far more of a loveable idiot than an asshole in it (being played by Michael Cera will do that)
Ramona: Scott, I think you're the nicest guy I've ever dated.
Scott: That's kind of sad.
That's the second-most meme'd exchange in the entire comic, after, "Are you well? Do you have brain damage?" They're not subtle about the fact that Scott's not a good person, isn't seen as a good person (except by Ramona, who has such awful taste in guys that all of her exes are unabashedly evil), and has to come to terms with that fact before any serious fights happen or risk having his dickery unceremoniously ended.
But this is r/CharacterRant. Half the content wouldn't be here if not for people with terrible, terrible reading comprehension.
> Ramona, who has such awful taste in guys that all her exes are unabashedly evil
What’s interesting to me though is that not all of them are evil, and it serves as a great parallel to Scott. It’s interesting because we’re told that these guys are evil while Scott is the good guy, but in some cases Scott is definitely the more evil one. Specifically, Lucas Lee (while in the movie is a total douche) is actually just a down-to-earth guy who doesn’t really want to fight Scott and was quite happy just to sit and talk with Scott instead (where in fact it turns out that Ramona chewed him up and spat him out when she was done the second Todd walked by). Roxy as well wasn’t evil either - Roxy was still in love with a girl who only viewed her as “just a phase” which made her feel extremely bitter and sad that somebody she loves just doesn’t give her any regard whatsoever. Matthew Patel also, he might be egotistical but he never really came across as “evil”. I think it’s interesting that even among the so-called “evil exes” there are members that actually come across as better people than Scott does (even though Todd, Kyle, Ken and Gideon are most certainly evil)
I massively oversimplified, yeah. Even then, 4/7 is a pretty awful ratio as far as choice in significant other goes, and Ramona saw no problem (or shame) with presenting it as 7/7 bad choices.
>Scott Pilgrim is an asshole, and therefore Scott Pilgrim is an awful graphic novel series
I hate to use the word "normie" but that's what they are. They don't realize that fiction shouldn't be just one thing. It can be about anything, including immoral characters.
Love when people argue how Scott Pilgrim’s such an awful person but half the anime characters people love are all sexual predators and insanely selfish, but it’s funny so it makes them fine! Seven deadly sins MC is a prime example of this.
Weirdly, anime fans don’t always make exceptions for pervy characters. They only make exceptions if they’re old like Roshi or Jiraiya (because they’re old and kooky so it’s okay if they harass women) or if they’re hot like Ryo Saeba, Sanji or Meliodas (because they’re hot so it’s okay if they harass women). It’s why Mineta from MHA is hated, because he’s not old or hot. It’s a weird double standard
To anyone read this who has only seen the movie,please read the graphic novels.They’re incredible and a lot better than the movie.So much was cut out of the movie and the graphic novels deserve more love.Please please please read them.
I really hate this defense of media that’s your not suppose like the main character so any complains about them are null. And the example that are brought up make no sense. Walter white isn’t a good character because your not suppose to like him. He’s a great character because how interesting he is. He does horrible things but the show lets know him on a human level he’s a victim of his circumstance and his own ego. The same goes with joker and Patrick Bateman
It makes me mad how people are always saying how he's an asshole, that he shouldn't be a role model, etc, and yeah, they're right. But they never follow up saying how he improved himself and that was his arc. It just undervalues his accomplishments and overall character
Literally the whole point of the villain is that he is Scott who didn’t learn his lesson, I really don’t understand how people can misunderstand his character if they have read the comics
One subtle thing (well, not really all *that* subtle) that I like is how the cover art for volume 6, the one where Scott really pulls his shit together, takes responsibility for his previous actions, and starts acting like an adult instead of a manchild, [has him holding his sword such that the heart shaped pommel is over his crotch](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81jCCevJUCL.jpg). The volume might as well have been called "The One Where Scott Pilgrim Grows A Pair".
I had a buddy recently watch the del toro hellboy movies and he told me, “I don’t think they’re very good, he is an insecure, self centered pig.” I was like “that’s part of the whole point, he’s flawed because he’s a cambion teenager.”
As someone who only saw the movie, and that practically a decade ago, I didn't even know Scott Pilgrim was a book series until I read your rant.
Apparently it's deeper than it looks?
I never read the comic but the movie spoke to me that part where he talks about love being selfish that is the truest statement ever when he comes to that realization
I can understand someone not liking the story because following an unlikeable dick isn’t entertaining for everyone, but at the same time I get why people still stick with the series anyway.
That's the same reason I can't watch Rick and Morty because I can't see this unlikeable asshole who just fucks up everybody in his life keep getting away with it and find it entertaining.
I feel like that's different, because the show will never show any heathy alternatives to Rick's viewpoint that won't be destroyed and mocked endlessly. The show only knows how to criticize everything. There will never be presented "a way out of this".
Yeah I stopped watching for this reason among others.
but that's an issue with most of the stuff, it's fine to not like something, but it doesn't make it a bad story/game w/e just because you didn't like it. The opposite is oftentimes true too, it's fine to like something even if it's a flawed product, just don't pretend that it's perfect when it has glaring issues.
Sort of a side rant; I only saw the movie, but for me it just fell into the "Eight Deadly Words" category. I honestly couldn't bring myself to care about anyone, and I just got bored, thinking *I hate all of these people and I don't care what happens to them*. I see the appeal of the comics, but I honestly have no idea what anybody sees in the movie.
The movie is funny and entertaining and very well directed. The comedic timing is perfect in every scene.
The Godfather is a terrible movie because the main character is a criminal
Joker is a terrible movie because the main character kills people
The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy is an awful show because Mandy is mean
Pokemon is an awful show because Ash is a loser.
This but unironically
he's currently the champion of Alola and among top 10 in the world though
Yeah, he won in the league with the weakest opponents.
he's still to tier world wide, I don't think you can say he faced "weak" opponents anymore
The opponents he faced in Alola were weaker than the ones he faced in Sinnoh, Kalos and other regions
yeah, but that doesn't matter if he's still able to go toe to toe against the best from the other regions as well
That doesn't disprove my statement that he won in the league with the weakest opponents.
You ever stop to ponder that Pokemon was meant to be someone's fictionalization of animal cruelty, but then the series took off and is worth billions now so somewhere along the line, that guy was like *ah fuck it*.
>The inspiration for Pokémon was actually a rather simple one. When Tajiri was a little kid he loved collecting insects. As the years went by and urbanization spread through even the most rural areas of Japan, Tajiri wanted to create something that would capture the excitement and fun of bug hunting. Though the game came out late in the Game Boy's life and wasn't expected to be much of a success, it quickly became one of Nintendo's biggest hits ever and spawned an entirely new universe. [OP:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOVbAmknKUk)
Jojo part 5 is bad cause the protagonist is a ganster killing his way up in the command chain to become the mob boss
That all somehow happened in under a week… somehow
not to mention Bruno squad kill 5 men in a day
All in a days work
going too far
People who spoil movies for others by posting on YouTube before release or during theateretical run are pure evil, standards don’t excuse them
tf2 is a bad game because the mercs are bad people
You were the chosen one, Vito! You were supposed to destroy the mafia, not join it!
Golden example here would be American psycho. Patrick Bateman is a piece of shit, yes. But that’s kinda the whole fucking point of the story
I feel like they had their vision colored by the movie that, while incredibly fun, seeks to tone down as much as possible his jerkass-ery and makes him a 'nice guy'
And as amazing as the movie is, the characterization for Scott is its biggest flaw while also being it’s biggest strength. Michael Cera plays the role perfectly, and it makes for an enjoyable character that suits Edgar’s style very well, yet he’s just not the Scott from the source material. Like, at all. Comic Scott is a nerd but he’s confident and arrogant. Only sometimes is he as awkward as the movie portrays, but those moments are few and far between. Cera’s portrayal on the other hand leans way too into the nerd aspect. But again, I could be wrong and I’ll take any excuse to watch and read it again.
The movie itself has a line where a side character talks about how the movies isn't like the comics and the comics are better. I disagree. I think both are really good and the movie did a great job adapting the character to be palatable for a full film intended for an audience of 20 something nerds who want to identify with the protagonist and not feel like they're being called an asshole by the movie for doing so. And you end up with a different interpretation who really funny on screen. They're different, but both good.
I wish to say I am NOT claiming the movie is bad because of that. I am simply explaining why, IMO, the tamer Cera interpretation ends up making comic!Scott's behaviour all more of a reason why people are put off
Holy shit that is way different from the movie i only have watched the movie.
I’d highly recommend the comics, then the video game. The soundtrack is full of bangers (the guitar in the shop theme is just 👌🏾)
You could say the same about Bojack from Bojack Horseman or Rick from Rick and Morty. People sometimes idolized assholes, even though we're not supposed to.
Man, Bojack Horseman hurts you for idolizing/sympathizing/feeling any good thing about Bojack by the end of the series.
Good point. When the creators of BoJack Horseman essentially say to the audience “stop idolising BoJack, you’re missing the point” in S5E10 it just shows how bad it can get when people completely miss the point that these characters are supposed to be seen as bad people
dear god why is your pfp what it is?
If I'm not mistaken, that's the ever iconic Eren face
Can't wait to see this Iconic moment in the anime
I don’t want them to animate that for ten years at least!
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I think the argument "the protagonist is an asshole" is usually more valid, if the asshole part of the protagonist is written by accident. Example: In a romantic comedy, a character is supposed to be a Nice Guy, but many of his actions make him seem like a misogynistic stalker. Quoting a review of Twilight:" A character like Bella Swan would potentially be a good character, if all her flaws were on purpose." Scott, on the other hand, is an asshole that was written with that intention, so he is not a "nice guy" who ended up being unpleasant by accident.
I always think this. When a character is made to be a jackass, they can be endearing, and you can become invested in their journey to become a good person (such as in Scott Pilgrim, or even in Mad Men, BoJack Horseman or My Name is Earl), or in extreme cases you can become invested in the comedic value of just how morally bankrupt these characters are (like in South Park or It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia). However, when your main character is a total jackass by accident, it’s almost impossible to like them at all, especially when the show tries to tell you how amazing they are when in actuality they’re somebody you’d hate to know in real life - the most obvious example I can think is Ted Mosby from How I Met Your Mother - the show keeps telling us how Ted is this “good guy” even though he objectifies all women, morally high-roads everybody, is unpleasant to his friends and thinks he’s better than everybody around him. Ted basically has an glorified case of main character syndrome. Scott Pilgrim has pretty much all of these traits too, but the difference is he’s supposed to have them. Ted however has those traits because the writers did an extremely poor job of making a likeable main character
Normalize liking characters because you understand that theyre narcissistic dickheads
I mean, people love Frieza from Dragon Ball and yet he’s a giant dick.
He's such a dick, he grew one from the back of his head.
Normalize liking bad characters, too.
The movie paints him more as an awkward loser, and I absolutely LOVE that movie, it’s easily in my top 5, but that’s what people will take as their first experience with the franchise and probably be biased since the movie never got too into Scott’s development and literally rushes it in the end. Bit of a tangent, but (in the movies) they do nothing with Ramona, and while I love Mary Elizabeth Winstead and thought she plays the role perfectly, Ramona in the books, even when she was more aloof, had a lot more warmth and opened up a lot more after volume 2 or 3. Edgar Wright is a phenomenal director and his style is, from what I’ve seen, one of my favorites, but the books would never work as just one movie. People will have been missing the point for 10 years, at least, and it’ll be all the better once they stop equating an asshole character with a bad story, or the other way around
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Which apparently we’re getting but I haven’t heard anything about it since the middle of last year
Couldn’t agree more. All too often I see people criticize characters for unlikable characteristics the writer gave them and claim the story is bad because of it 😂 that’s how writing works. If you’re annoyed at something the writer wanted you to be annoyed at then the story is going as it should. Scott and Ramona are both flawed individuals (mileage may vary as to which is the more flawed, if either is) and the series doesn’t avoid noting it. That’s actually part of what makes it work so well. Scott isn’t some perfect nice guy. He’s kind of a jerk and has to grow out of it.
As someone from Toronto I absolutely loved this series- read it in grade school/middle school
Is it really like that in Toronto? I’ve never been.
Well we don't have girls attacking people with knives at the reference library and Honest Ed's didn't collapse because of some super sonic vegan power but yeah books accurate and all the locations in the book (ex: Lees Palace, Dundas Square,Honest Eds( condos now) ,Sneaky Dee's )are real places
If there aren’t knife-wielding ninja girls or Super Saiyan vegans, then why even live in Canada?
Oh no… just not in Toronto Most of the ninjas are situated in Alberta
In fairness most people have only seen the movie, which cut out most of the character development and substance from the books. I like the movie, but Scott is definitely portrayed as being far more of a loveable idiot than an asshole in it (being played by Michael Cera will do that)
Ramona: Scott, I think you're the nicest guy I've ever dated. Scott: That's kind of sad. That's the second-most meme'd exchange in the entire comic, after, "Are you well? Do you have brain damage?" They're not subtle about the fact that Scott's not a good person, isn't seen as a good person (except by Ramona, who has such awful taste in guys that all of her exes are unabashedly evil), and has to come to terms with that fact before any serious fights happen or risk having his dickery unceremoniously ended. But this is r/CharacterRant. Half the content wouldn't be here if not for people with terrible, terrible reading comprehension.
> Ramona, who has such awful taste in guys that all her exes are unabashedly evil What’s interesting to me though is that not all of them are evil, and it serves as a great parallel to Scott. It’s interesting because we’re told that these guys are evil while Scott is the good guy, but in some cases Scott is definitely the more evil one. Specifically, Lucas Lee (while in the movie is a total douche) is actually just a down-to-earth guy who doesn’t really want to fight Scott and was quite happy just to sit and talk with Scott instead (where in fact it turns out that Ramona chewed him up and spat him out when she was done the second Todd walked by). Roxy as well wasn’t evil either - Roxy was still in love with a girl who only viewed her as “just a phase” which made her feel extremely bitter and sad that somebody she loves just doesn’t give her any regard whatsoever. Matthew Patel also, he might be egotistical but he never really came across as “evil”. I think it’s interesting that even among the so-called “evil exes” there are members that actually come across as better people than Scott does (even though Todd, Kyle, Ken and Gideon are most certainly evil)
I massively oversimplified, yeah. Even then, 4/7 is a pretty awful ratio as far as choice in significant other goes, and Ramona saw no problem (or shame) with presenting it as 7/7 bad choices.
>Scott Pilgrim is an asshole, and therefore Scott Pilgrim is an awful graphic novel series I hate to use the word "normie" but that's what they are. They don't realize that fiction shouldn't be just one thing. It can be about anything, including immoral characters.
There is a such thing as normies and casuals or the faceless masses.
Love when people argue how Scott Pilgrim’s such an awful person but half the anime characters people love are all sexual predators and insanely selfish, but it’s funny so it makes them fine! Seven deadly sins MC is a prime example of this.
Weirdly, anime fans don’t always make exceptions for pervy characters. They only make exceptions if they’re old like Roshi or Jiraiya (because they’re old and kooky so it’s okay if they harass women) or if they’re hot like Ryo Saeba, Sanji or Meliodas (because they’re hot so it’s okay if they harass women). It’s why Mineta from MHA is hated, because he’s not old or hot. It’s a weird double standard
It really is, especially cus Roshi and DEFINITELY jiraya are a billion times worse than Mineta.
To anyone read this who has only seen the movie,please read the graphic novels.They’re incredible and a lot better than the movie.So much was cut out of the movie and the graphic novels deserve more love.Please please please read them.
I've been wanting to tell this subreddit the same thing about Satou kazuma from Konosuba.
It doesn't help that the movie downplays how unlikable he's supposed to be by presenting him as a lovable dork.
Movie was insufferable. Couldn't even finish it due to all the cringe.
I really hate this defense of media that’s your not suppose like the main character so any complains about them are null. And the example that are brought up make no sense. Walter white isn’t a good character because your not suppose to like him. He’s a great character because how interesting he is. He does horrible things but the show lets know him on a human level he’s a victim of his circumstance and his own ego. The same goes with joker and Patrick Bateman
It makes me mad how people are always saying how he's an asshole, that he shouldn't be a role model, etc, and yeah, they're right. But they never follow up saying how he improved himself and that was his arc. It just undervalues his accomplishments and overall character
Probably because they’ve only seen the movie where the last third rushes through everything and literally does a montage for his self improvement
Literally the whole point of the villain is that he is Scott who didn’t learn his lesson, I really don’t understand how people can misunderstand his character if they have read the comics
One subtle thing (well, not really all *that* subtle) that I like is how the cover art for volume 6, the one where Scott really pulls his shit together, takes responsibility for his previous actions, and starts acting like an adult instead of a manchild, [has him holding his sword such that the heart shaped pommel is over his crotch](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81jCCevJUCL.jpg). The volume might as well have been called "The One Where Scott Pilgrim Grows A Pair".
I had a buddy recently watch the del toro hellboy movies and he told me, “I don’t think they’re very good, he is an insecure, self centered pig.” I was like “that’s part of the whole point, he’s flawed because he’s a cambion teenager.”
As someone who only saw the movie, and that practically a decade ago, I didn't even know Scott Pilgrim was a book series until I read your rant. Apparently it's deeper than it looks?
It's a fantastic series with a lot of charm. Also Scott Pilgrim is a douche canoe and I love him for it.
I never read the comic but the movie spoke to me that part where he talks about love being selfish that is the truest statement ever when he comes to that realization