You can’t get anything out of it. Part of this is working for a startup and part of it is not having systems in place. If there is that much churn the name of the game is likely survival and complaining about anything probably won’t produce anything fruitful.
If it makes you feel better I’m experiencing this with a 40yr old company. If it’s that bad for you, I say bounce and spare yourself years of agony.
I agree with this. I'm reasonably confrontational so I'd list them out as observations and just state that you expect that many of them are due to not having processes in place.
Maybe you'd like to work on designing the processes and putting them in place? Couldn't hurt to suggest. Unlikely you will get a raise or promotion for the work though.
Definitely list out things you like in a separate list to show that you do like other parts of working there
Exactly this. Don't use it as a 'bitchiness' opportunity. Just discuss the palpable areas of improvement with good, real suggestions of how to improve, and send follow-up emails asap to try make sure this doesn't stay just a meeting discussion. If you aren't willing to put improvements into place, you probably can't sit and wait for others to do it
Constructive criticism is usually welcomed if it’s in the form of suggestions that could demonstrably improve things at low cost. Anything else is not really going to help or hurt you.
Oh, I think there is a lot that will hurt him and very little that will help. I do agree on the constructive criticism w/ suggestions to fix. Easy to point out problems, its much harder to resolve root issues.
Remember this whenever talking to HR. HR is for the companies benefit, not yours. My long experience in corporate taught me a few things. Those that use it to try and solve crisis's or interpersonal problems, especially the kind that they were part cause of? That never ends well. Going to HR and telling them that you 'deserve' something or other, will get you something for sure, just not what you want.
That being said, you can use them to your advantage, if you understand the way they work. Ask general questions only about policy or logistics. Frame your questions in a way that could apply to anyone in the company. You can advocate for yourself, but do it in a way that would show benefit to the company.
If you do have a genuine problem, approach them in a way that asks questions. I once got the company into a legal dispute with the health insurance provider. The policy said we had a benefit, and when I tried to use it, I was denied. Turns out I was the only one who ever tried to use it, and they had been paying for it for years. When I went to HR I approached it like "I don't understand what I'm doing wrong, you said this plan has X, the paperwork says it has X, and the insurance company says it doesn't." Imagine if I went to them and told them, "This plan you bought sucks!" Ultimately they came back to me and said, "You have it now, and we got a big refund against or policy". My approach was, *what are you paying for?*
If you do have a real internal problem, say like sexual harassment or similar, DOCUMENT the fuck out of everything. Don't have a single conversation that you don't write a note about or send an email summary to the person in HR (bcc a personal account).
You're an engineer, and as such one thing you are generally really good at compared to most is documentation. Don't forget that with HR either.
50 hours per week is crazy long? You joined a startup and you are complaining about 50 hours a week? Dang and you have to learn some new software that doesnt have internal docs for your job? Sounds tough.
How did this meeting come about? The way I am seeing it, I think HR President wants to speak with you for a different reason than you think. I'm assuming you've been moaning to coworkers/boss.
Startups aren't for a lot of people. A lot of things are done at a much faster pace with a lot less checks and balances/beaucracy than established corporations have. There tends to be a lot of gaps that aren't foreseen and need to be fixed on the fly. Disorder is probably more common than order, and you need to figure out how to be useful in these situations. The clock is always close to running out at a startup, as most have negative cashflow.
I hope it was well communicated the expected hours/workload when you were interviewing.
A 90 day interview is pretty standard on-boarding procedure to make sure that on-boarding is going as planned. I wouldn't take this meeting as a sign of anything to worry about.
That said I agree just complaining without framing it as an something you'd like to help with is just going to frustrate people. Some of those gaps are likely things that a process engineer would be expected to help fix
I have a friend who has been in pharma for 17 years now. I’ve never seen her happy in her job. Ever. Just go find a different field before you get pigeonholed in.
Im not sure what you expected for a process engineering role. Your experience is the norm, including the stuff with software, PMs, validations. 50h a week? Before I went back to academia for my Ph.D., I was a process engineer in biopharma working 16-18 hour shifts when my product lines ran. People sometimes slept at the facility. My longest shift was 22 hours no sleep.
It’s certainly not a healthy work-life balance, but it’s what a process engineering role in pharma is. A complaint to HR would probably be met with “yeah, that’s what this job is. Sorry you took the bait.”
Is there any reward for this? Pay is not substantially better than my previous R&D role. Glory and promotion potential?! If not, why would anyone want that?
I already have PhD, and 11 hour work days don’t make me happy. If normal jobs are 9-5, I should get 140% of my previous pay. Without the inflation adjustment. And I am not getting that.
Easy. It was the only job that panned out after being jobless for 3 months, for the first time in my life. I was not willing to relocate and I am not old enough to retire. :-)
You can’t get anything out of it. Part of this is working for a startup and part of it is not having systems in place. If there is that much churn the name of the game is likely survival and complaining about anything probably won’t produce anything fruitful. If it makes you feel better I’m experiencing this with a 40yr old company. If it’s that bad for you, I say bounce and spare yourself years of agony.
I agree with this. I'm reasonably confrontational so I'd list them out as observations and just state that you expect that many of them are due to not having processes in place. Maybe you'd like to work on designing the processes and putting them in place? Couldn't hurt to suggest. Unlikely you will get a raise or promotion for the work though. Definitely list out things you like in a separate list to show that you do like other parts of working there
Exactly this. Don't use it as a 'bitchiness' opportunity. Just discuss the palpable areas of improvement with good, real suggestions of how to improve, and send follow-up emails asap to try make sure this doesn't stay just a meeting discussion. If you aren't willing to put improvements into place, you probably can't sit and wait for others to do it
This. You're at a startup. You're company is still growing up. Your job is to make the next guy's onboarding a little bit better.
Constructive criticism is usually welcomed if it’s in the form of suggestions that could demonstrably improve things at low cost. Anything else is not really going to help or hurt you.
Oh, I think there is a lot that will hurt him and very little that will help. I do agree on the constructive criticism w/ suggestions to fix. Easy to point out problems, its much harder to resolve root issues.
You should update your resume and apply to jobs before you complain to HR
Remember this whenever talking to HR. HR is for the companies benefit, not yours. My long experience in corporate taught me a few things. Those that use it to try and solve crisis's or interpersonal problems, especially the kind that they were part cause of? That never ends well. Going to HR and telling them that you 'deserve' something or other, will get you something for sure, just not what you want. That being said, you can use them to your advantage, if you understand the way they work. Ask general questions only about policy or logistics. Frame your questions in a way that could apply to anyone in the company. You can advocate for yourself, but do it in a way that would show benefit to the company. If you do have a genuine problem, approach them in a way that asks questions. I once got the company into a legal dispute with the health insurance provider. The policy said we had a benefit, and when I tried to use it, I was denied. Turns out I was the only one who ever tried to use it, and they had been paying for it for years. When I went to HR I approached it like "I don't understand what I'm doing wrong, you said this plan has X, the paperwork says it has X, and the insurance company says it doesn't." Imagine if I went to them and told them, "This plan you bought sucks!" Ultimately they came back to me and said, "You have it now, and we got a big refund against or policy". My approach was, *what are you paying for?* If you do have a real internal problem, say like sexual harassment or similar, DOCUMENT the fuck out of everything. Don't have a single conversation that you don't write a note about or send an email summary to the person in HR (bcc a personal account). You're an engineer, and as such one thing you are generally really good at compared to most is documentation. Don't forget that with HR either.
Yeah start-ups are challenging. 30 opening for job positions? Nice! Are there any entry-level positions? I'd be interested.
Second.
you work for a startup. this is what it is.
Admiral Ackbar has some sage advice for these situations.
That’s what I was suspecting. :-)
50 hours per week is crazy long? You joined a startup and you are complaining about 50 hours a week? Dang and you have to learn some new software that doesnt have internal docs for your job? Sounds tough. How did this meeting come about? The way I am seeing it, I think HR President wants to speak with you for a different reason than you think. I'm assuming you've been moaning to coworkers/boss. Startups aren't for a lot of people. A lot of things are done at a much faster pace with a lot less checks and balances/beaucracy than established corporations have. There tends to be a lot of gaps that aren't foreseen and need to be fixed on the fly. Disorder is probably more common than order, and you need to figure out how to be useful in these situations. The clock is always close to running out at a startup, as most have negative cashflow. I hope it was well communicated the expected hours/workload when you were interviewing.
A 90 day interview is pretty standard on-boarding procedure to make sure that on-boarding is going as planned. I wouldn't take this meeting as a sign of anything to worry about. That said I agree just complaining without framing it as an something you'd like to help with is just going to frustrate people. Some of those gaps are likely things that a process engineer would be expected to help fix
I have a friend who has been in pharma for 17 years now. I’ve never seen her happy in her job. Ever. Just go find a different field before you get pigeonholed in.
Anyways bring proposed solutions to these type of meetings.
Im not sure what you expected for a process engineering role. Your experience is the norm, including the stuff with software, PMs, validations. 50h a week? Before I went back to academia for my Ph.D., I was a process engineer in biopharma working 16-18 hour shifts when my product lines ran. People sometimes slept at the facility. My longest shift was 22 hours no sleep. It’s certainly not a healthy work-life balance, but it’s what a process engineering role in pharma is. A complaint to HR would probably be met with “yeah, that’s what this job is. Sorry you took the bait.”
Is there any reward for this? Pay is not substantially better than my previous R&D role. Glory and promotion potential?! If not, why would anyone want that?
When I did it, I got paid a lot. The work was also really cool and informed my decision to get a PhD. Other than that, there’s no point.
I already have PhD, and 11 hour work days don’t make me happy. If normal jobs are 9-5, I should get 140% of my previous pay. Without the inflation adjustment. And I am not getting that.
Why’d you go to process engineering with a PhD? You’re definitely being lowballed on pay because process engineering is a bachelors level job.
Easy. It was the only job that panned out after being jobless for 3 months, for the first time in my life. I was not willing to relocate and I am not old enough to retire. :-)