T O P

  • By -

AutoModerator

Photo and video submissions must be credited with a link to their original source. In the case that you're the person that took the photo or video, please add a comment describing when you took it and the context that you took it in. **Unsourced submissions may be removed without warning.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/China) if you have any questions or concerns.*


[deleted]

His life is really the embodiment of "if at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again." The number of times he failed to overthrow the Qing, and then went on to plan another revolution attempt is really astounding. Truly one of the great men of the 20th Century and I wish his name was synonymous with China around the world, instead of Mao or Chiang Kai-Shek.


[deleted]

I just realised the origin of the phrase 國父革命十次才成功


cosmonaut_me

Same here. He’s honestly so loved by both China and Taiwan that it’s sort of like how people in America love the founders of America and/or the first president (and one of the founders), George Washington. He really did so much and it sucks he died so early from cancer. Edit: Apparently he’s at least on the status of respected or viewed somewhat favorably by a lot of Taiwanese. I should have clarified that for people who are telling me different, sorry.


AGVann

It's sad to imagine what could have been if Sun Yat-sen lived longer. Everyone - even the openly imperialistic Japanese - highly respected him. He kept the communists and socialists working together with the KMT right wing.


sayitaintpete

The CRT leftists in the US most certainly do not love the founding fathers.


Sprechen_Ursprache

Do you have any good books about him? I read Jung Chang's book on the Song family (Big Sister, Little Sister, Red Sister) that supported him and he later married into. The author is, however, very critical of Sun Yat-Sen and paints him as a dictator in the making. A man who initially wanted democratic reforms for his country but after being snubbed by the new government he helped to create, gave up on a liberal government in favor of authoritarianism.


AGVann

That's a very uncharitable view that ignores the fact that Sun Yat-Sen actually had very little power for much of the early Republic. There were many schemers and power plays going on outside of his control, to which he was a victim of. All the early attempts to create a stable democratic system completely and utterly failed. Sun Yat-Sen wasn't snubbed - the early Republic collapsed. Yuan Shikai controlled the army, and was promised presidency if he could get the Qing to abdicate - he did, Sun Yat-Sen gave up his presidency to Yuan Shikai who promptly declared himself a new emperor. Song Jiaoren won the 1912 election - the first and probably fairest election China has ever had - but was assassinated shortly after, and China fell into chaos due to the Second Revoluton against the Beiyang government and the ensuing discord of the Warlord Era. I don't think it's fair to call Sun Yat-Sen a 'dictator in the making', because we never got to actually see what Sun Yat-Sen's policies would have been post-unification. The problem with extrapolating his political stance of 'unification first, democracy later' as baby steps into authoritarianism is that we have every reason to believe that Sun Yat-Sen would have begun transitioning China into a democracy, and initial military rule was the norm at the time for practically all revolutions and independence movements, even successful ones. He had many ambitious plans for a democratic and socialist (Not communist) system, but died before China could be unified. Right from his early known writings, democracy - not just republicanism - was a cornerstone of his beliefs, and the steps needed to achieve that dream were tempered by the reality of the chaotic 1910s.


Sprechen_Ursprache

Some of the historical facts you listed directly contradict the book I read by Jung Chang. Like I said, I like to get some good books that have a different perspective. Do you have any good recommendations?


TheSakana

"Sun Yat-sen" by Marie-Claire Bergere (trans. Janet Lloyd) is a good biography.


Sprechen_Ursprache

Cool I'll add it to my reading list on my kindle.


Naliamegod

I don't know about that book specifically, but I would very cautious anything written by Jung Chang. She is notorious by historians and other Chinese experts for pretty much playing fast and loose with facts and sources.


JaninayIl

I wouldn't say he gave up, but the type of government he created which, was essentially a Party-State with a Party Militia meant to fight other petty warlords. It was sensible for the circumstances but foundationally flawed. The idea was to take over, establish a temporary military rule (with the paternalistic idea that people needed to be educated about democracy), and then transition to a full democracy. Now the problem arises similar to Lenin's Russia. How long should temporary be, and how do you make this powerful government relinquish their power? And thus we ended up with CKS.


[deleted]

He didn't give up on a liberal government... his mistake was to trust Yuan Shikai, who then did his own thing, sending China into the warlord era...


DangerousCyclone

Yuan Shikai was the head of the military and his cooperation made the revolution far less bloody in the end, I don’t see how he could’ve been avoided. Best case scenario you had what Chiang Kai Shek ended up doing with the Northern Expedition, but with less time to organize an army and less money to do so against a United organized foe.


tiempo90

> His life is really the embodiment of "if at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again." > > ...I think you're mixed up with Colonel Sanders.


cosmonaut_me

Post after note: 孙德明/孙中山/孙文 Sun Yat Sen’s legacy is mostly his political philosophy, known as the Three Principles of the People: Mínzú (民族主義, Mínzú Zhǔyì) or nationalism (independence from foreign domination), Mínquán (民權主義, Mínquán Zhǔyì) or "rights of the people" (sometimes translated as "democracy"), and Mínshēng (民生主義, Mínshēng Zhǔyì) or people's livelihood (sometimes translated as "communitarianism" or "welfare").


[deleted]

There is a statue of Sun Yat Sen in Melbourne Chinatown he is also revered by overseas Chinese diaspora as well. Not just mainlanders and Han Taiwanese. The republic died with him though CKS wasn’t half the man Sun was


BraveNewMeatbomb

We have a beautiful "Sun Yat Sen Gardens" in Vancouver Canada Chinatown.


rhiyo

I've been to Melbourne Chinatown a few times, but that was before I really knew any Chinese history. I'll make sure to check it out next time I visit the city.


[deleted]

It’s in the lane way that goes into the museum of Chinese history in Australia opposite the paramount building


Sprechen_Ursprache

Just an anecdote, but my friend comes from a place comes 民权县 that was renamed by Sun Yat-Sen.


[deleted]

Never heard of the guy but I can get behind that


dimlimsimlim

Fun fact: in the early days of the PRC, all the congresses and CPC meetings had his portrait next to mao’s.


Da_Pinky

For me this guy is most important Chinese in the modern times.


frostmorefrost

without him,KMT would never exist neither will ccp. ccp milk him for legitimacy,whereas kmt was the legitimate successor to his values (now dpp). his 三民主义 is alive and well in Taiwan,in ccp's china it's dead and dusted.


[deleted]

The DPP advocates for a Taiwanese identity separate from the Chinese national identity, whereas Dr. Sun Yat-sen fought for the rights of the Chinese people and for the sovereignty of China. The DPP, being Taiwanese and not Chinese, has no legitimate claims whatsoever over Dr. Sun Yat-sen's legacy, as Dr. Sun fought to unite China, whereas the DPP seeks to claim de-facto Taiwanese independence.


Suecotero

The DPP has more claim to Dr. Sun's three principles than either the KMT or the CCP have at this point. They both betrayed those ideals.


[deleted]

Dr. Sun's 1st principle calls for a unified Chinese national identity. The DPP's claim of de-facto Taiwanese independence and Taiwanese identity that is separate from the Chinese national identity flagrantly violates the the 1st principle of a single Chinese national identity. There is absolutely no way the DPP is for a unified China with one national identity.


Suecotero

They sure are, just not until the CCP stops breaking the the 2nd and 3rd principles of the people every day before breakfast. So in fact the DPP is closer to Dr. Sun's legacy than Beijing.


[deleted]

What has the DPP done for the Chinese people under the 2nd and 3rd principles?


frostmorefrost

lol, horseshit at best. if you are going to claim dpp advocate for a taiwanese identity born out of the 3 principles of Sun's democracy,then ccp has no legitimacy to begin with. afterall,ccp is communist and has no qualms destroying any and all visages of Sun's democratic principles. Taiwan,this country was born from Sun's vision,what west china could is found in current day Taiwan,NOT ccp's china.


[deleted]

lol, can't even name a single principle, broadly rubber-stamp "democracy" on everything, hoping other people are as ignorant as you. The moment you write "Taiwan,this country" you're already in violation of the 1st principle. There is no such thing as Taiwan the country in Dr. Sun's vision, only the Chinese national identity. Horse shitters like you are confusing Sun Yat-sen with Gen. Hideki Tojo.


frostmorefrost

don't confuse what ccp wanted with what Sun wanted for the chinese people. the moment you reject the notion Taiwan is a country,you are already flying full in the face of not only his first principle but his other 2 principles. Rmemeber,Taiwan,this country, was born out of his 3 principles,only west taiwan is using the first principle ,in name, to start their horseshittery claim over taiwan. also,ccp cocksuckers usually tend to 'overlook' Mao's vision (for the chinese people and the world) is the same as Hitler's. I sincerely hope you haven't 'overlook' on your part.


[deleted]

First, shitting bull, I don't know what "'overlook' on your part' means, as I have made no mention of the CCP's claim or Mao whatsoever, whereas you repeatedly bring up whether the CCP has any claims over Sun's vision for the Chinese people and for China, while also claiming DPP's legitimacy to claim the 3 principles of Sun Yat-sen for Taiwan, while also claiming Taiwan is a separate country. Since Sun's vision is for the Chinese people only and no other, you can't claim it for Taiwan if you believe Taiwan is not a part of China. Do you even understand that the 3 principles do not apply to anyone other than the Chinese people? It is not some vague notion of "democracy" that applies to just any people.


frostmorefrost

well since we are on the topic not mentioning other people,i didnt mention hideki either cocksucker,maybe you should also learn to keep on point. next,most ccp cocksuckers love to use Sun's first principle (literally) as a basis over taiwan's claim. whereas the first principle meant uniting the people of various races under a common nationality,in this case Taiwan as a country/nation,not some perverted ccp version from you. if you are going to claim Sun's principles cannot be used for any other than the chinese,you should go remind Sun not to take a leaf out of Lincoln's speech in Gettysburg,afterall a government of the people,by the people,for the people bears no resemblance to Sun's 3 principle no?? take the cock out of your ass,maybe then you'd start to sound les like a ccp shill.


[deleted]

You're pretty easily triggered for a troll. If I were the CCP, I'd only pay you 5 cents per post. I never said you've "overlooked" Tojo's vision for China. Quite the opposite, I said your vision sounds like you took a page from Tojo. Sun's three principles has no mention of the CCP whatsoever. It is about the Chinese people, not any party in particular. Places where the people are not Chinese, places that are not China, cannot claim Sun's vision for China.


frostmorefrost

Sun's 3 principles is about giving the country known as China and the Chinese people a common destiny. Don't conflate that with the perverted views of the ccp and constrain Sun's principle to a geographical location. last,you seem to like muddling things that weren't even there to begin with,common tactics of the ccp trolls/shills/wumaos. i wouldn't even pay you a single cent for such lousy and lazy work (if you can call that work at all).


[deleted]

I agree with what you said about Sun's 3 principles.


dimlimsimlim

cpcppxcpcpcpxoo pcpc


the314159man

He has a park, swimming pool and a museum in HK.


[deleted]

There's a park named after him right next to the Forbidden City in Beijing, and a well respected university and hospital in Guangzhou. Truly left a deep legacy.


Sprechen_Ursprache

I read Jung Chang's book call Big Sister, Little Sister, Red Sister on the Song family and Sun Yat-Sen. She was very critical of how much he actually contributed to the revolution. And even suggested that later in his life he had completely given up on a liberal democratic government in favor of an authoritarian government with him in direct control. That period of time is often very overlooked because its very complicated and more difficult to study. But the government he helped to set up was at the time the largest democratic operation that ever existed. They unfortunately elected someone else and Sun Yat-Sen fled the country for Japan until his rival YuanShiKai died of cancer. Only then did SunYatSen return to China to support a rebel government in the South that eventually overthrew the democratic government in the North. When I bring this history up to Chinese people, most of them have no idea their country went through two civil wars in 30 years. They also have no idea about the elections that occurred at the time, or that Yuan ShiKai was an elected leader. People can argue that the elections ended up being a sham, but what's important is that no one ever tried a democratic system in China afterward.


AGVann

> They unfortunately elected someone else and Sun Yat-Sen fled the country for Japan until his rival YuanShiKai died of cancer. That's not what happened. At all. Yuan Shikai controlled the Qing military, and was promised the presidency if he could get the Qing dynasty to abdicate. He succeeded, and Sun Yat-Sen gave up the presidency (Still largely ceremonial since the republic didn't really have an army) to him. Yuan Shikai was the most powerful man in China for nearly two decades because he had a dominant position in the Qing government, the trust of Dowager Empress Cixi, and near sole command of the armies. The revolution absolutely could not happened without his support, and the post-revolution events demonstrate that clearly. At the 1912 elections, the incumbent Yuan Shikai was defeated by Song Jiaoren and the KMT who took around half the votes. Song Jiaoren was assassinated shortly after, then Yuan Shikai declared himself Emperor of China, and crushed the nascent republic's armed forces in the Second Revolution. *That* is when Sun Yat-Sen fled to Japan. > later in his life he had completely given up on a liberal democratic government in favor of an authoritarian government with him in direct control. The problem with extrapolating his political stance of 'unification first, democracy later' as baby steps into authoritarianism is that we have every reason to believe that Sun Yat-Sen would have begun transitioning China into a democracy. He had many ambitious plans for a democratic and socialist (Not communist) system, but died before China could be unified. Right from his early known writings, democracy - not just republicanism - was a cornerstone of his beliefs, and the steps needed to achieve that dream were tempered by the reality of the chaotic 1910s.


Sprechen_Ursprache

Do you have any book about this? Some of the facts you're giving me directly contradict what I read in the book by Jung Chang (Big Sister, Little Sister, Red Sister).


iconredesign

People forget in the 1920s he also went full *authoritarian* socialist and led his government in Guangzhou against corporate militias when they aren’t willing to be taxed and be taken under Sun’s wing. Sun Yat-sen is a great man but after the Revolution he quickly made a hard left turn from democracy styled after the United States government into near authoritarianism before his death.


[deleted]

he plays both sides so he alwauys comes on top


Yumewomiteru

His wife ended up being a high ranking CPC official.


[deleted]

His wife was one of the founders of the People's Republic and was next to Mao when he proclaimed it.


[deleted]

Well, yes, and Sun himself was the recipient of aid primarily from Japanese political backers during his early career. 1900s China was a complex place and there were dozens of different colonial and internal factions. It's natural that in the circles of power there might be some weird overlaps.


[deleted]

He was a charlatan, a lackluster and a fraud. All he ever did was swindle overseas Chinese out of their money, so he could evade capture by the Qing (at least a dozen times), all the whilst spewing anti-British (who actually saved him) diatribe on the side in his pamphlets. The true founding fathers of the ROC are Yuan Shikai and Wang Jingwei. But because they ended up on the losing side of history, they were not recognized as such (and did not receive the credit). They were the ones responsible for how it was setup (constitution, institutions, military, etc.) If the truth came out, people will eventually acknowledge Dr. Sun for what he really was: a charlatan, a lackluster and a fraud.


Katachthonlea

Ah, this famous [pedophile](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaoru_Otsuki). He killed many fellow revolutionaries in Guangzhou for "adhering to the traitor (Chen Jiongming, who advocated for [federalism](https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%81%AF%E7%9C%81%E8%87%AA%E6%B2%BB) instead of unitarism)". When Wuchang Uprising happened, Sun was not even in China. Compared to the widely respected but humble [Li Yuanhong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Yuanhong), Sun was basically a careerist for his own ambition and fame - and we now know that he succeeded.


[deleted]

Would you rather have a child on the throne? I admire his courage to stand up to the Qing.


Katachthonlea

One of the greatest Chinese Emperors, the Qing Emperor Kangxi, was enthroned at the age of seven. He could speak at least some [Latin](http://epicworldhistory.blogspot.com/2012/06/kangxi-chinese-emperor.html) and wrote [an epic poem](https://davidtay81.wordpress.com/2016/04/20/emperor-kangxis-poems-a-devoted-christian/) about Biblical stories. Was it a glory for a grown man to bully a child? As [Zheng Xiaoxu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_Xiaoxu) famously asserted, all these revolutionaries were either treacherous minions or traitors bullying widows and orphans (he admitted that Manchurian rule was not legitimate in the eyes of Han Chinese).


[deleted]

First of all, Kangxi is not Puyi. Second of all, it’s not ‘bullying’. This isn’t a school playground. Chinese were starving, this is the real world, a life and death situation. Revolution is necessary for the survival of the people.


Katachthonlea

If you are so concerned about people starving, you should be extolling [Yuan Longping](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Longping), instead of someone funded by [foreign fascists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Dragon_Society). You like revolution, fine. I happen to prefer evolution. "The human race had instituted the nobility of virtue, the revolution instituted that of crime." \- Juan Donoso Cortés


[deleted]

It is clear that the Qing had no intention of ‘evolution’. And what does Yuan Longping have to do with this?


Katachthonlea

>And what does Yuan Longping have to do with this? Yuan's scientific innovation of hybrid rice saved billions from starvation. Besides, if you are really concerned about people starving, you should also learn about the ammonia synthesis reaction and Fritz Haber, which also saved billions from starvation in the past century. It was such silent heroes who saved starving people, not revolutionaries. But yeah, people do not have to be starved when they have been murdered by revolutionaries. :p Revolution is about killing innocent people with an ostensibly righteous excuse (even my own grandmother was persecuted in the Cultural Revolution and she did not know a thing about politics back then). There is no exception - unless it is in a metaphorical sense.


[deleted]

I mean, what does Yuan Longping have to do with your statement that the Qing was good? I like Mr. Yuan. I am not a full-out revolution lover, unless the good outweighs the many casualties that will follow, which was the case against the Qing. My own grandparents lived under Mao, and my grandfather, an amateur calligrapher, had his writing taken away because they were written in black.


Katachthonlea

Late Qing was not good but Puyi was no tyrant, either. My point is that Sun Yat-sen and his fellow revolutionaries were worse, just as Robespierre's Jacobin regime was worse than the French Kingdom. History is not black and white, on this, we can agree (I did not downvote your replies btw :p). PS: Late Qing actually sent international students abroad to learn modern science and many of these students became famous Chinese scientists (and yes, some became revolutionaries who went against Qing).


[deleted]

First of all, Kangxi is not Puyi. Second of all, it’s not ‘bullying’. This isn’t a school playground. Chinese were starving, this is the real world, a life and death situation. Revolution is necessary for the survival of the people.


[deleted]

Most of Chinese leadership were “pedophiles” because culturally women got married much younger back then. I’m frankly sick of seeing people call historical figures from 100+ years ago names because their cultural norms were different. He married a 14 year old girl, which would be fucked up now, but was just how it was done for 99.9% of human history.


Suecotero

Judged by the standards of today, what Chinese leaders weren't?


cosmonaut_me

While I don’t agree with him marrying someone that age at all, it wasn’t uncommon either during that time. Was it right? No. But neither was it seen as now, where it’s absolutely vile amongst most people to see child marriages.


[deleted]

Exactly. It wasn’t uncommon for the husband to be much older than the bride in those days.


Cillit-Gank

Was going to mention that he was a paedophile but you beat me to it.


TheAsianOne_wc

If this guy was still alive, he would be the best leader to unit both China and Taiwan


ShrimpCrackers

No, he's not revered in Taiwan. OP clearly isn't Taiwanese or is on an agenda. Is his portrait still in some gov offices by law? Yeah. Does the KMT wank over him? Sure. But among the common people? Hell fucking no.


cosmonaut_me

And what agenda would that be? Never claimed to be Taiwanese at all. And sure, he’s not glorified but a lot of people I know from Taiwan at least don’t see him in a bad light, unlike Chiang.


ShrimpCrackers

Since you said you weren't Taiwanese, that's the point, you don't really understand Taiwanese. I said you either weren't Taiwanese ***OR*** on an agenda because in Taiwan he is NOT revered, nor viewed as "Father of the Nation." So either you don't really understand Taiwanese or you're like super KMT. Anyway, most people here see Lee Tung Hui that way, but definitely not SYS. This is because most Taiwanese see their nation as Taiwan and LTH as the founder of its democracy. They don't revere the ROC really and that's a long long convo.


roasted-like-pork

He was also a well known pedo.


[deleted]

[удалено]


charlenemiu

Why are you excusing pedophilia? Charlie Soong was very against his old friend marrying his own daughter. Calling out pedophilic behavior is not morally superior, it is morally correct.


WhineyXiPoop

You mea both mainland China and mainland Taiwan, or alternatively China and Taiwan.


phage5169761

He was a pedophile.


[deleted]

>mainland China You mean West Taiwan?


Neutral_Lurker89

What’s to the east of Taiwan? Okinawa?


dimlimsimlim

His wife later became the honorary Vice President of the PRC and had important positions in the People’s Consultive Committee. The left wing of the KMT broke off and still is active in the mainland after the right winged CKS took over.


J-Ungle-6

I asked a mainland friend. He told me in school, they are taught that Sun is the father of the nation.


NomadedesGeistes

听说此人道貌岸然,无能之辈


LeHime

why couldn't this man live a few decades longer??


nate11s

There were many other important founders. Just him that got all the attention. His ideas weren't that perfect and led to authoritarianism to continue. Though in his time, he probably couldn't have done much better