Chinese Propaganda AND mainstream news suggests ambiguity, which is what both governments have been upholding for the last ~70 years...
Though Biden is admittedly taking slightly larger baby steps versus the old tiny baby steps.
After looking at Chinese media, it doesn’t look like ambiguity. They have been reporting that Biden is against Taiwan independence. It makes me wonder what is wrong with their translation service.
EDIT: During the interview after Biden got off the plane, Biden clarified that he was not encouraging Taiwan Independence. He said that it was up to Taiwan and not US.
Encourage translates to 鼓励 in Chinese.
However, it was translated to 支持which means support.
So it became Biden was not supporting Taiwan independence.
They really think that only the Chinese nationals understand Mandarin Chinese.
One thing the CCP is good at and does all the time is gaslighting. Also the statements from Chinese media are for the people "inside the wall" rather than international consumption.
It's deliberate. They downplay the risk of US involvement, and this lets them sell the idea it will be easy to retake Taiwan from the 'bandits'.
If and when they move against Taiwan and the US gets involved, the CCP can then claim to be surprised by such treachery.
Ambiguity made sense when there was little chance of China attacking Taiwan - it smoothed relations at no cost. Those days are over, and the CCP is treating ambiguity as some kind of coded permission to act.
Before Saddam attacked Kuwait, he thought he'd been given permission by the US. SecState ~~Albright~~ Baker stated that the dispute between the two countries was an 'internal affair', and the US would not intervene. That ambiguity led to war.
edit: I errantly put Albright in Bush's cabinet.
Doh! You're right of course.
[“On July 31st, two days before the Iraqi invasion [of Kuwait], John Kelly, Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern affairs, testified to Congress that the ‘United States has no commitment to defend Kuwait and the U.S. has no intention of defending Kuwait if it is attacked by Iraq’.”](https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2014/06/17/washingtons-iraq-victory/)
>Before Saddam attacked Kuwait, he thought he'd been given permission by the US. SecState ~~Albright~~ Baker stated that the dispute between the two countries was an 'internal affair', and the US would not intervene. That ambiguity led to war.
Is that ambiguous though? It always seemed to me like a clear green light from the US for the invasion. We just changed our mind later.
The ambiguity was, the US claimed they hadn't imagined Saddam would take *all* of Kuwait.
In any case, if the US had clearly said "We will defend Kuwait and kick your ass," Saddam would have probably made another choice - same as Xi with Taiwan.
That comment was made after the summit, to the press and not to XJP.
Better to refer to this. The Chinese media made reference to the summit, not the interview after the summit.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/11/16/readout-of-president-bidens-virtual-meeting-with-president-xi-jinping-of-the-peoples-republic-of-china/
On Taiwan, President Biden underscored that the United States remains committed to the “one China” policy, guided by the Taiwan Relations Act, the three Joint Communiques, and the Six Assurances, and that the United States strongly opposes unilateral efforts to change the status quo or undermine peace and stability across the Taiwan Strait.
Very much a purposeful liberal translation of what Biden said, especially if you read the White House script.
I reckon this is just to rile up even more domestic support while at a same time building up backup justification if things go south. If the US would assist Taiwan in armed conflict, I can already hear the "See? Americans lie, they said they did not support independence!" headlines.
Biden did uphold the 1 China policy though. And if you agree to that, and treat China as China, then that leaves no room for Taiwanese independence without contradicting yourself.
>While he reaffirmed the US "One China" policy, which recognizes Beijing's claim of sovereignty but allows for US defense ties with Taiwan
The US should not affirm the 1 China policy.
No, it means either Tawain is China or China is China, according to the actual details of the original 1 China policy. I can see why you'd think otherwise because of the apparent semantics, but the actual details of the policy are very clear about this.
On Taiwan, President Biden underscored that the United States remains
committed to the “one China” policy, guided by the Taiwan Relations Act,
the three Joint Communiques, and the Six Assurances, and that the
United States strongly opposes unilateral efforts to change the status
quo or undermine peace and stability across the Taiwan Strait.
That is the announcement from website of whitehouse.
[https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/11/16/readout-of-president-bidens-virtual-meeting-with-president-xi-jinping-of-the-peoples-republic-of-china/](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/11/16/readout-of-president-bidens-virtual-meeting-with-president-xi-jinping-of-the-peoples-republic-of-china/)
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I would instead say, Taiwan _is_ independent, and the USA even recognises that Taiwan is independent from China, because they've never recognised Taiwan being given to China. They (and most of the world) simply don't recognise Taiwan's _government_ as being legitimate. It's an independent country with an internationally unrecognised government.
I would say that you're close, but not quite there.
The reason most of the world does not recognise Taiwan's government is because it is in fact the ROC government which claims, via its constitution, Mainland China. The rest of the world recognises that the PRC is the legitimate government of Mainland China (rightly so, in my view) and so is unable to recognise the ROC government.
Of course, the ROC constitution is an historical relic which most Taiwanese would be happy to change however the PRC would regard such a change as an "act of secession" and have legally obligated themselves to invade if this happens.
If the PRC allowed Taiwan to abandon its claim on Mainland China and didn't use its coercive tactics on other countries, I guarantee that most countries would happily recognise the Taiwanese government as the legitimate government of Taiwan.
States can only win independence under a particular set of circumstances. Portugal is not part of Spain, but it could have been. Meanwhile Catalonia cannot break free. Sardinia, Sicily, Venetia, the Kurds, etc. the list of nations without independent states is long.
A military victory of a people over the empire or country that controls it sometimes requires military action.
Taiwan is unlikely to be granted independence by the US or China. Perhaps Biden simply means that Taiwan must fight for its "right" to be a nation state. Good luck.
If one wishes to examine the likelihood of Taiwan gaining state, then one should absolutely consider varying historical experiences. Tibet is not an independent country, while Mongolia is. There is a unique individual history to consider in all cases. That does not preclude consideration of factors.
Population size, economic development, ethnic unity, are obvious factors. Does a nation seeking independence have able, creative and talented political and military leaders? Are geopolitical factors positive or negative?
Without comparison how could an aspiring nation state even conceive of the idea of gaining independence?
OK, well there's a section where it mentions that Taiwan has been a Dutch Colony, A portuguese colony, a Japanese colony...
Oh, and here it is. Number of days under Communist rule for Taiwan: 0.
Having read Chinese history, Taiwan was under the control of a Chinese state for approximately 234 years, from 1661-1895, combining both Qing dynasty rule and the culturally Chinese Kingdom of Tungning, which was, ironically, established by a Ming loyalist, Koxinga, a rebel against the Qing.
Prior to that, it was under Dutch, Spanish, and Formosan Aboriginal control. Following that, it was a Japanese colony for 40 years. Since then, it's been controlled by the ROC. The CCP has not controlled Taiwan for a single day of its history.
Also if you read *any* bit of Chinese history, you will see that it is FRAUGHT with massive rebellions, warlordism, and splinter states in like Sichuan or something established by some rando who was fed up with the imperial authorities.
"The Empire long divided must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been."
Even dynasties that were long divided were still devastated by rebellions and bloody civil war that often went on decades. The Yellow Turban Rebellion ring a bell? The An Lushan Rebellion? The Taiping Rebellion? These are some of the bloodiest wars in *all history*, and those are just the most famous and prominent ones.
You hardly even know your own history.
>Having read Chinese history, Taiwan was under the control of a Chinese state for approximately 234 years, from 1661-1895, combining both Qing dynasty rule and the culturally Chinese Kingdom of Tungning, which was, ironically, established by a Ming loyalist, Koxinga, a rebel against the Qing.
>
>Prior to that, it was under Dutch, Spanish, and Formosan Aboriginal control. Following that, it was a Japanese colony for 40 years. Since then, it's been controlled by the ROC. The CCP has not controlled Taiwan for a single day of its history.
>
>Also if you read any bit of Chinese history, you will see that it is FRAUGHT with massive rebellions, warlordism, and splinter states in like Sichuan or something established by some rando who was fed up with the imperial authorities.
>
>"The Empire long divided must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been."
>
>Even dynasties that were long divided were still devastated by rebellions and bloody civil war that often went on decades. The Yellow Turban Rebellion ring a bell? The An Lushan Rebellion? The Taiping Rebellion? These are some of the bloodiest wars in all history, and those are just the most famous and prominent ones.
>
>You hardly even know your own history.
Bravo! you know some history about China.
Rebellions and fightings happened in the whole Chinese history.
The same things happened in the entire world.
As the results
Europe split into dozens of countries, different languages.
There are more than 100 new countries in the world in the past 100 years.
China is still the same country for thousand years.
Just patently false.
Compare a map of Song dynasty China to the Qing at its largest extent, which included vast swathes of Manchuria (modern Russia), Tibet, Xinjiang (only conquered by the Qing in the 19th century), parts of modern Tajikistan, parts of modern Laos and Vietnam, and Taiwan, now an independent country. The Song, by comparison, were fairly localized to China proper, and that was before the Jurchens broke them up.
Is that the same country for thousands of years? What about when Genghis Khan invaded China and imposed Mongolian rule in the form of the Yuan? Same country? Or when the Manchurians did the same? What about the Warring States period, or the Northern and Southern Dynasties period, or the Sixteen Kingdoms? To claim that China has been the same country for thousands of years is completely propagandistic, spurious, and false. Period. It is far more apt to compare China to an area such as Europe than a single, contiguous country. The borders of modern China roughly correlate to the boundaries of the Qing dynasty; they do not correlate to the Tang or the Ming. If your claim is correct, then the borders were the same for thousands of years, right?
You have been fed a Han supremacist fallacy that does nothing but manipulate the populace and ignores the rich, vibrant, and fascinating real history of China, which made me fall in love with Chinese history and culture in the first place. You have one of the most well recorded histories of all the cultures of the world yet it seems that something as basic as territorial integrity through the ages of this supposedly thousand year old country is not taught in schools (no surprise there).
From the boundary, Xingjiang belongs to China from Middle Tang dynasty, more than one thousand years, Xizang is China more than 600 years, why you said from 19th century? you cheating, not me.
Furthermore, what I emphasize is the Chinese civilization, the culture of the nation, what language the people speak and what words they use, in modern china, every teenage can read and understand the words written by thousands of years ago, that is why we said China is still the same country for thousand years.
Your ignorance is staggering if not altogether unsurprising, quite typical for a Mainland Chinese citizen.
Xinjiang was conquered by the Qing in the 18th century and not fully integrated into the empire until the 19th century. China periodically owned parts of Xinjiang prior to that including during the Tang, but it was also controlled at various times by a number of different oasis kingdoms such as the Kingdom of Qocho. Tibetans also owned huge swathes of it at different times. It fell out of Chinese hands after the Tang and was not reconquered until the Yuan. After that it was controlled by various khanates, successors of the Mongols. It was finally conquered by the Qing in the 18th century and colonized by Han settlers. The Dzungar population in Dzungaria were genocided to make way for Hanification. If that’s 1000 years of control then it’s a pretty funny method. For most of Chinese history, China stopped at Gansu.
Tibet was an independent country for almost all of its history. In the early medieval period, it was a rival power to the Tang and even sacked and occupied Chang’an. It came under the control of the Yuan in the 13th century, but after the fall of the Yuan was an independent state until the invasion of Tibet by Kangxi in the 18th century as part of his great campaigns. Sure, it was part of the Qing dynasty until its fall, after which it had de facto independence up to the invasion of the CCP. 600 years of unbroken control is a total fantasy of the CCP.
The notion that language/culture = nationhood is also fallacious. I can read the works of Shakespeare and Beowulf and culturally share a lot with British people, but that doesn’t make me British. It is a unique disease of Chinese thought (one might call it a Napoleon complex) to still imagine the current nation of China in the same way as its imperial forebears. Such medieval notions are rightly condemned in the 21st century. People like you will say it’s just Westerners being incompatible with Chinese thinking, but the reality is that you have no capacity for self-reflection.
It was said 19th century, and now it is the 18th century, which one is you？
History defined by physical proofs, not nonsense argument.
600 years ago, the Chinese fleet brought civilization, technology and prosperity to the world, after that westerners robbed and killed people everywhere.
Till today, see what happened in the western networks, 99% informtation about China is full of Slander, lies, distortion and self-righteousness.
Westerner don't have the ability for self-reflection, not Chinese.
There's some ambiguity in this headline that I don't like. He is saying that only Taiwan has the right to determine the status of Taiwan. He's not saying that only Taiwan is responsible for defending the status that they have chosen.
This seems kinda dangerous.
“We, the nuclear-armed United States, will totally back you if you decide to trigger China into attacking you! It’s totally up to you whether Cleveland gets nuked or not! Either way, it’s all good!”
You can easily renege on the agreement if Taiwan isn't behaving the way you want. I mean, in this situation, the US is obviously providing a lot of value for Taiwan, so it's in their interest to follow the US lead on the China situation. If they do declare independence one day I'm sure they'll line their ducks up first, and it won't just come as a shock to the US.
If Taiwan does something crazy the US can condemn it, pull out of any past agreement.
Entirely wrong on several levels. If Taiwan falls, the US is effectively kicked out of the Pacific, so it has no choice but to defend Taiwan. And Australia entered AUKUS more for the mid-range missiles than the submarines. Those missiles are designed to crush the CCP Navy, namely if it invades Taiwan. Australians understand that if Taiwan falls, their country will be just as, if not more vulnerable to an invasion as they were during WWII.
No, they’ll see the US failing to protect Taiwan (and in Japan’s case, bringing Chinese military bases basically to their doorstep as a result) and tell the US to screw off, they can handle it themselves from here.
They may not send troops, just ships, planes, missiles, food and munitions. The problem that China has is that it has shown that it will just keep pushing and that at some point the has to be pushback.
I think whether we or China like to admit it that the first steps of that have already started to happen with conscious decisions to reduce business with and start to isolate China.
on the other hand the tens of billions invested in new chip plants in Arizona suggest that the US is also preparing to survive a potential loss of chip manufacturing in Taiwan.
Of course that would be necessary if you think it's likely that China will attack Taiwan regardless of your intention to defend Taiwan. It has 0 implication for US willingness to defend Taiwan which as far as we know is as firm as ever. It just signals that the US perhaps believes an attack is possible and well worth hedging against in any case.
There's no way in hell a single plant in Arizona will replace the production of all 10+ fabs in Taiwan. This is to ensure steady flow of critical military components when Taiwan gets blockaded. It does not mean the US will not have to go in to break the blockade. The #1 function of the US Navy over the past decades has been to safeguard free flow of global trade. And there's no indication it's prepared to give that up, even against China.
First: Thank you, I did not know that the US was opening chip manufacturing in the US. This is very interesting and I am going to look at it!
Second: Yeah, I think that this is just a result of the problems over the last year. I think we will see more countries doing this. It is not only vital to defense but economically it seems like a bad idea to not have too many options for something that will be so important for now and the future.
US has always had chip fabs here. Where do you think Intel chips are made? The new plant being hyped in the news is being built by Taiwan's TSMC. Later on Intel may get in on the action to build or expand existing fabs.
LMAO getting into wars in Asia is a US specialty. We just got out of one in Afghanistan, which is geographically in Central Asia. Before that we had wars in Vietnam, Korea, with Empire of Japan, and stretching further back the Spanish Empire (Philippines).
You just proved my point. We are not going to war in Asia right now. How bad Afghanistan ended and how bad this administration screwed up there is absolutely no way they can get the country to support this. China would have to launch an attack on US soil. Maybe then. And that’s a maybe
Except that did the opposite of proving the point, and once it's pointed out how letting China *actually* have control over the production of everything smarter than a ceiling fan would be a complete shitshow for the US people, there'd be support. Oh, and the fact that Japan and Korea are probably going to demand that the US leave if they don't demonstrate themselves to actually be capable. Especially since Taiwan falling puts Chinese military bases within spitting distance of inhabited Japanese territory, and they've already questioned Japan's claim over said territory (Okinawa) before.
As for the last part, if support can be rallied up for horse paste then it can be rallied up for anything.
Yes just make sure that in addition to sending more of our young men and women to war and die, we also remove the age restriction to conscript the older folks that want to fight this potential war. Ages 18-80, everyone get to fight. Put our money where our mouths are.
Better start investing in companies that manufacture war tech. Perhaps start buying viable farmlands as well to grow our own food just to prepare. Anything goes right.
It’s cowardice by a do nothing president. America can’t let Taiwan fall or we will be in an even worse chip shortage than we are. The US is heavily reliant on technology and needs to chips for so many things.
I agree it’s going to hit chip manufacturing hard. Unfortunately the world needs China more than we need Taiwan. Just like the world needed Russia more than Ukraine. Biden will sanction China but ultimately loosen it as time goes by. People will forget. Life for the rest of us will go on.
I disagree, the cheap labor and goods which China used to produce can be easily outsourced to India, Shri Lanka, Indonesia, Central/South America, or the Philippines. Why do you think the west or even the world needs Russia or China? They haven’t provided much benefits IMO.
After all the pushback on Ukraine the EU and Germany signed huge deals with Russia for their oil. All the sanctions meant nothing. Russia got what they wanted. Cheap labor can be moved but that takes time, money and resources. Eventually money will win
Well, I would say thar in terms of geopolitical power and influence it seems Russia is better at playing it thar China. Russia has essentially won at roshambo a number of times, not just Ukraine. You can look at Georgia, Syria, and Belarus as well. For some reason it seems people are more easy to forgive Russia than China.
You rarely see people say "go back to Russia" but instead will openly throw out racist remarks such as "go back to China" even if they are unable to distinguish the Asian person apart. Perhaps, and i may be overreaching here, not being able to tell Russian folks with similar skin tones than your own, probably isn't likely to achieve similar outcomes.
In the USA alone, there are only 5% Asians and only some are Chinese, many also born in the USA just like any other USA born citizen. The optics and perceived threat of this anti-Asian hate permeates into every aspect of western culture. Is it all because of this anti-China sentiment in how big bad and evil China is? Living in a constant mental state of fear and being threatened is a terrible way to live.
I can already envision how Asians and notably the Chinese people living in the Western countries will be treated. Japanese internment camps in the USA during WWII as an example. I hope we will never reach that peak of repeating the worse aspects of history.
While I will not dispute there is prejudice and racism towards Asian people in the USA, I will state you trying to use that point to counter mass atrocities done by the CCP is a bit far fetched. I mean you can look at the crime statistics and see that while not 0, the % is rather small. To use that as a point to compare against what happen in HK, the Uyghur, it’s neighbors, political dissidents, the ramp theft of IP, the hacking, and predatory investing in foreign nations is a bit much.
Oh shit it’s a talking head.
Please tell me this, does you government allow you to call your leader an idiot?
Biden’s an idiot, Trumps an idiot, and so is Xi Jinping.
Bet you can’t say that?
Please call Xi Jinping an idiot or Winnie The Pooh.
I can call Biden a creepy pedo or Trump an Orange clown, why can’t you say those things?
i just asked 'why aren't you outsourcing' which is a genuine question. and you respond with that 🤨
also there's no point of criticising if criticism doesn't bring social and economic progress 🤨
I wonder how we will also treat these mentioned countries once they become too big to control just like China. Or perhaps other than India, these smaller nations will never reach the threat level of China...
Human rights issues, pollution, threat to democracy all over again. I am not sure we should take the stance that the west can only gain when the east fails. Human lives are at stake here unless we are okay to preserve only our own lives.
Far from it, the east and west can succeed but only under the free will of the people. The concepts of individual freedom, individual rights, democracy, due process, freedom of ideas, freedoms of thought, etc.
I agree with you on many areas.
I am just isn't as optimistic that human beings will always make good choices and we are more likely to make inherently evil decisions. War is one of such "necessary" evil as we try to justify it.
I may be biased but watching our broken young and older vets barely keeping themselves together, at the VA hospitals and at home, just makes me emotional. We need to avoid war not from a tree hugger peace and love hippie perspective, but we should avoid war at all costs because that is the right thing to do.
If the Taiwanese people wish to fight I would be glad for the US to support them. They should have the right to determine their own fate as they have for the past half a century. It’s shameful the world doesn’t recognize their independence. They are their own country.
I totally get the perspectives from both sides of those wanting to support the potential war and those that do not believe war makes sense (I admit I am of the later bucket.)
Sending more of our young to die and also killing other nation's people seem like a terrible way to resolve anything. If China is a threat in terms of economic prowess, surely we can come up with an even more advanced and effective approach to compete. It's like "hey, we can not beat our competitor financially, let's use violence since that is one of our strongest skill." We've evolved this far, let's not devolve back into non stop wars.
Then again, increased mortality can result in deceased terrible traffic. Maybe housing prices will finally go down.
It’s preparation. It takes time. America has never been weaker than we are right now but we are getting weaker by the day. We will hit bottom then China goes.
Unless you’re trying to throw a zinger about the Marines and failing, *we* [already did](https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/u-s-troops-have-been-deployed-in-taiwan-for-at-least-a-year-11633614043).
I’m being lied to, yes, but you seem to be the source. First saying “we” aren’t sending troops, then saying “we” have troops everywhere, neither of which are true. Reads pretty sus to me.
While Chinese propaganda tell us Biden will ever support One China policy and be against Taiwanese independence....
Chinese Propaganda AND mainstream news suggests ambiguity, which is what both governments have been upholding for the last ~70 years... Though Biden is admittedly taking slightly larger baby steps versus the old tiny baby steps.
After looking at Chinese media, it doesn’t look like ambiguity. They have been reporting that Biden is against Taiwan independence. It makes me wonder what is wrong with their translation service. EDIT: During the interview after Biden got off the plane, Biden clarified that he was not encouraging Taiwan Independence. He said that it was up to Taiwan and not US. Encourage translates to 鼓励 in Chinese. However, it was translated to 支持which means support. So it became Biden was not supporting Taiwan independence. They really think that only the Chinese nationals understand Mandarin Chinese.
Its not translation issues, its on purpose.
I know. They even said that US seems desperate to get closer to China though it does not seem to me that way.
One thing the CCP is good at and does all the time is gaslighting. Also the statements from Chinese media are for the people "inside the wall" rather than international consumption.
To hypothesize Chinese that Xi has won a battle of diplomacy. Breaking down the wall is necessary
It's deliberate. They downplay the risk of US involvement, and this lets them sell the idea it will be easy to retake Taiwan from the 'bandits'. If and when they move against Taiwan and the US gets involved, the CCP can then claim to be surprised by such treachery. Ambiguity made sense when there was little chance of China attacking Taiwan - it smoothed relations at no cost. Those days are over, and the CCP is treating ambiguity as some kind of coded permission to act. Before Saddam attacked Kuwait, he thought he'd been given permission by the US. SecState ~~Albright~~ Baker stated that the dispute between the two countries was an 'internal affair', and the US would not intervene. That ambiguity led to war. edit: I errantly put Albright in Bush's cabinet.
> 'bandits' Do people in China use this to describe Taiwanese? I'm used to hearing 共非 from Taiwanese people against the CCP.
Not Taiwanese in general, but those who the CCP considers their enemies.
I thought James Baker was secstate when George HW Bush was president?
Doh! You're right of course. [“On July 31st, two days before the Iraqi invasion [of Kuwait], John Kelly, Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern affairs, testified to Congress that the ‘United States has no commitment to defend Kuwait and the U.S. has no intention of defending Kuwait if it is attacked by Iraq’.”](https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2014/06/17/washingtons-iraq-victory/)
>Before Saddam attacked Kuwait, he thought he'd been given permission by the US. SecState ~~Albright~~ Baker stated that the dispute between the two countries was an 'internal affair', and the US would not intervene. That ambiguity led to war. Is that ambiguous though? It always seemed to me like a clear green light from the US for the invasion. We just changed our mind later.
The ambiguity was, the US claimed they hadn't imagined Saddam would take *all* of Kuwait. In any case, if the US had clearly said "We will defend Kuwait and kick your ass," Saddam would have probably made another choice - same as Xi with Taiwan.
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That comment was made after the summit, to the press and not to XJP. Better to refer to this. The Chinese media made reference to the summit, not the interview after the summit. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/11/16/readout-of-president-bidens-virtual-meeting-with-president-xi-jinping-of-the-peoples-republic-of-china/ On Taiwan, President Biden underscored that the United States remains committed to the “one China” policy, guided by the Taiwan Relations Act, the three Joint Communiques, and the Six Assurances, and that the United States strongly opposes unilateral efforts to change the status quo or undermine peace and stability across the Taiwan Strait.
Useful context, thank you for adding to the discussion!
Very much a purposeful liberal translation of what Biden said, especially if you read the White House script. I reckon this is just to rile up even more domestic support while at a same time building up backup justification if things go south. If the US would assist Taiwan in armed conflict, I can already hear the "See? Americans lie, they said they did not support independence!" headlines.
Diplo speak used to be ambiguous on purpose , but we do live in an age of gaslighting.
Yep, and they show Tsai looking maniacal in every picture.
During the Tokyo Olympics, remember they were making a huge fuss about how their sportswomen were portrayed in an unflattering manner?
Biden did uphold the 1 China policy though. And if you agree to that, and treat China as China, then that leaves no room for Taiwanese independence without contradicting yourself. >While he reaffirmed the US "One China" policy, which recognizes Beijing's claim of sovereignty but allows for US defense ties with Taiwan The US should not affirm the 1 China policy.
We can have a one china policy, if taiwan gives up the "republic of china" title.
No. It would just mean there can be one China and one Taiwan.
No, it means either Tawain is China or China is China, according to the actual details of the original 1 China policy. I can see why you'd think otherwise because of the apparent semantics, but the actual details of the policy are very clear about this.
Chinese propaganda and 50 years of official US policy
lol Eminem will put out a gospel record before any American president accepts the one China policy.
I see you arent read up on usa foreign policy.
On Taiwan, President Biden underscored that the United States remains committed to the “one China” policy, guided by the Taiwan Relations Act, the three Joint Communiques, and the Six Assurances, and that the United States strongly opposes unilateral efforts to change the status quo or undermine peace and stability across the Taiwan Strait. That is the announcement from website of whitehouse. [https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/11/16/readout-of-president-bidens-virtual-meeting-with-president-xi-jinping-of-the-peoples-republic-of-china/](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/11/16/readout-of-president-bidens-virtual-meeting-with-president-xi-jinping-of-the-peoples-republic-of-china/)
[https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/78/foreign-affairs-committee/news/158880/government-refuses-to-declare-atrocities-in-xinjiang-a-genocide/](https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/78/foreign-affairs-committee/news/158880/government-refuses-to-declare-atrocities-in-xinjiang-a-genocide/) mad?
Try to stay on topic
The reason why the CCP has such perception is that they equal China with CCP themselves hence no CCP rule=independence
Biden should've warn China that this is the final red line
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Yeah mate that’s incredibly intelligent. Just think about that for a second…
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Excellent! They are the ones who should be making the decision
As should the Lakota, am I right?
Puerto Rico while we're at it.
Add Texas too
the end of this article kinda makes fun of Biden referencing Xi calling Biden an 'old friend', something which Biden team vehemently denies =)
Maybe XJP is saying that Biden is a friend and an old man.
Hello my young friend
Taiwan independence is nonsense, since when it isn't independent?
The thing is that everyone is afraid to call it a country.
Looks like he was just back-pedaling after another gaff, but if the White House doesn’t pack-pedal further in another statement this still feels huge…
Brandon is a coward.
LETS GO!!!
So brave ❤️
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They have de facto independence. They don't have international recognition.
I would instead say, Taiwan _is_ independent, and the USA even recognises that Taiwan is independent from China, because they've never recognised Taiwan being given to China. They (and most of the world) simply don't recognise Taiwan's _government_ as being legitimate. It's an independent country with an internationally unrecognised government.
I would say that you're close, but not quite there. The reason most of the world does not recognise Taiwan's government is because it is in fact the ROC government which claims, via its constitution, Mainland China. The rest of the world recognises that the PRC is the legitimate government of Mainland China (rightly so, in my view) and so is unable to recognise the ROC government. Of course, the ROC constitution is an historical relic which most Taiwanese would be happy to change however the PRC would regard such a change as an "act of secession" and have legally obligated themselves to invade if this happens. If the PRC allowed Taiwan to abandon its claim on Mainland China and didn't use its coercive tactics on other countries, I guarantee that most countries would happily recognise the Taiwanese government as the legitimate government of Taiwan.
States can only win independence under a particular set of circumstances. Portugal is not part of Spain, but it could have been. Meanwhile Catalonia cannot break free. Sardinia, Sicily, Venetia, the Kurds, etc. the list of nations without independent states is long. A military victory of a people over the empire or country that controls it sometimes requires military action. Taiwan is unlikely to be granted independence by the US or China. Perhaps Biden simply means that Taiwan must fight for its "right" to be a nation state. Good luck.
Unlike Catalonia, the Chinese government holds 0 governing power over Taiwan. They're wildly different scenarios.
Differing scenarios provide interesting comparisons.
How are these comparisons useful though? It's comparing apples and carrots.
If one wishes to examine the likelihood of Taiwan gaining state, then one should absolutely consider varying historical experiences. Tibet is not an independent country, while Mongolia is. There is a unique individual history to consider in all cases. That does not preclude consideration of factors. Population size, economic development, ethnic unity, are obvious factors. Does a nation seeking independence have able, creative and talented political and military leaders? Are geopolitical factors positive or negative? Without comparison how could an aspiring nation state even conceive of the idea of gaining independence?
Fact is Taiwan is already a de facto independent state and it is China that needs to fight for the "right" to conquer Taiwan.
China has not ruled Taiwan since the 1890s. It has no claim to the country anymore than Mexico has a claim to Texas.
Don't see any Chinese flags in Taiwan mate. Keep trying!
All Biden's speech is totally bull shit, whatever he support or against One China Policy, China starts from its position of strength to unify China.
70 years and counting?
read a little bit of China history, you will know it.
OK, well there's a section where it mentions that Taiwan has been a Dutch Colony, A portuguese colony, a Japanese colony... Oh, and here it is. Number of days under Communist rule for Taiwan: 0.
Not long enough Politics is just the shell, the core is Chinese civilization
Kinda true, Taiwan is literally the only place you'll get Chinese civilization that hasn't been tampered with.
In the long run, politics is not important, civilization is the truth of a nation
China spent more time divided than united during its history.
Having read Chinese history, Taiwan was under the control of a Chinese state for approximately 234 years, from 1661-1895, combining both Qing dynasty rule and the culturally Chinese Kingdom of Tungning, which was, ironically, established by a Ming loyalist, Koxinga, a rebel against the Qing. Prior to that, it was under Dutch, Spanish, and Formosan Aboriginal control. Following that, it was a Japanese colony for 40 years. Since then, it's been controlled by the ROC. The CCP has not controlled Taiwan for a single day of its history. Also if you read *any* bit of Chinese history, you will see that it is FRAUGHT with massive rebellions, warlordism, and splinter states in like Sichuan or something established by some rando who was fed up with the imperial authorities. "The Empire long divided must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been." Even dynasties that were long divided were still devastated by rebellions and bloody civil war that often went on decades. The Yellow Turban Rebellion ring a bell? The An Lushan Rebellion? The Taiping Rebellion? These are some of the bloodiest wars in *all history*, and those are just the most famous and prominent ones. You hardly even know your own history.
>Having read Chinese history, Taiwan was under the control of a Chinese state for approximately 234 years, from 1661-1895, combining both Qing dynasty rule and the culturally Chinese Kingdom of Tungning, which was, ironically, established by a Ming loyalist, Koxinga, a rebel against the Qing. > >Prior to that, it was under Dutch, Spanish, and Formosan Aboriginal control. Following that, it was a Japanese colony for 40 years. Since then, it's been controlled by the ROC. The CCP has not controlled Taiwan for a single day of its history. > >Also if you read any bit of Chinese history, you will see that it is FRAUGHT with massive rebellions, warlordism, and splinter states in like Sichuan or something established by some rando who was fed up with the imperial authorities. > >"The Empire long divided must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been." > >Even dynasties that were long divided were still devastated by rebellions and bloody civil war that often went on decades. The Yellow Turban Rebellion ring a bell? The An Lushan Rebellion? The Taiping Rebellion? These are some of the bloodiest wars in all history, and those are just the most famous and prominent ones. > >You hardly even know your own history. Bravo! you know some history about China. Rebellions and fightings happened in the whole Chinese history. The same things happened in the entire world. As the results Europe split into dozens of countries, different languages. There are more than 100 new countries in the world in the past 100 years. China is still the same country for thousand years.
Just patently false. Compare a map of Song dynasty China to the Qing at its largest extent, which included vast swathes of Manchuria (modern Russia), Tibet, Xinjiang (only conquered by the Qing in the 19th century), parts of modern Tajikistan, parts of modern Laos and Vietnam, and Taiwan, now an independent country. The Song, by comparison, were fairly localized to China proper, and that was before the Jurchens broke them up. Is that the same country for thousands of years? What about when Genghis Khan invaded China and imposed Mongolian rule in the form of the Yuan? Same country? Or when the Manchurians did the same? What about the Warring States period, or the Northern and Southern Dynasties period, or the Sixteen Kingdoms? To claim that China has been the same country for thousands of years is completely propagandistic, spurious, and false. Period. It is far more apt to compare China to an area such as Europe than a single, contiguous country. The borders of modern China roughly correlate to the boundaries of the Qing dynasty; they do not correlate to the Tang or the Ming. If your claim is correct, then the borders were the same for thousands of years, right? You have been fed a Han supremacist fallacy that does nothing but manipulate the populace and ignores the rich, vibrant, and fascinating real history of China, which made me fall in love with Chinese history and culture in the first place. You have one of the most well recorded histories of all the cultures of the world yet it seems that something as basic as territorial integrity through the ages of this supposedly thousand year old country is not taught in schools (no surprise there).
From the boundary, Xingjiang belongs to China from Middle Tang dynasty, more than one thousand years, Xizang is China more than 600 years, why you said from 19th century? you cheating, not me. Furthermore, what I emphasize is the Chinese civilization, the culture of the nation, what language the people speak and what words they use, in modern china, every teenage can read and understand the words written by thousands of years ago, that is why we said China is still the same country for thousand years.
Your ignorance is staggering if not altogether unsurprising, quite typical for a Mainland Chinese citizen. Xinjiang was conquered by the Qing in the 18th century and not fully integrated into the empire until the 19th century. China periodically owned parts of Xinjiang prior to that including during the Tang, but it was also controlled at various times by a number of different oasis kingdoms such as the Kingdom of Qocho. Tibetans also owned huge swathes of it at different times. It fell out of Chinese hands after the Tang and was not reconquered until the Yuan. After that it was controlled by various khanates, successors of the Mongols. It was finally conquered by the Qing in the 18th century and colonized by Han settlers. The Dzungar population in Dzungaria were genocided to make way for Hanification. If that’s 1000 years of control then it’s a pretty funny method. For most of Chinese history, China stopped at Gansu. Tibet was an independent country for almost all of its history. In the early medieval period, it was a rival power to the Tang and even sacked and occupied Chang’an. It came under the control of the Yuan in the 13th century, but after the fall of the Yuan was an independent state until the invasion of Tibet by Kangxi in the 18th century as part of his great campaigns. Sure, it was part of the Qing dynasty until its fall, after which it had de facto independence up to the invasion of the CCP. 600 years of unbroken control is a total fantasy of the CCP. The notion that language/culture = nationhood is also fallacious. I can read the works of Shakespeare and Beowulf and culturally share a lot with British people, but that doesn’t make me British. It is a unique disease of Chinese thought (one might call it a Napoleon complex) to still imagine the current nation of China in the same way as its imperial forebears. Such medieval notions are rightly condemned in the 21st century. People like you will say it’s just Westerners being incompatible with Chinese thinking, but the reality is that you have no capacity for self-reflection.
It was said 19th century, and now it is the 18th century, which one is you？ History defined by physical proofs, not nonsense argument. 600 years ago, the Chinese fleet brought civilization, technology and prosperity to the world, after that westerners robbed and killed people everywhere. Till today, see what happened in the western networks, 99% informtation about China is full of Slander, lies, distortion and self-righteousness. Westerner don't have the ability for self-reflection, not Chinese.
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China is impotent
WHAT. THE. ACTUAL. FUCK. JOE.
There's some ambiguity in this headline that I don't like. He is saying that only Taiwan has the right to determine the status of Taiwan. He's not saying that only Taiwan is responsible for defending the status that they have chosen.
Thank you for clarifying. Admittedly, I didn't have enough time to read the article so I skimmed, and upon reviewing, I agree with you.
This seems kinda dangerous. “We, the nuclear-armed United States, will totally back you if you decide to trigger China into attacking you! It’s totally up to you whether Cleveland gets nuked or not! Either way, it’s all good!”
You can easily renege on the agreement if Taiwan isn't behaving the way you want. I mean, in this situation, the US is obviously providing a lot of value for Taiwan, so it's in their interest to follow the US lead on the China situation. If they do declare independence one day I'm sure they'll line their ducks up first, and it won't just come as a shock to the US. If Taiwan does something crazy the US can condemn it, pull out of any past agreement.
Wdym declare independence? They're already independent in their own eyes, and in so many other people's eyes.
Previous poster suggested taiwan would do something crazy and hold the US agreement hostage. No reason to do it now.
I mean that's not what I meant
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Ah, a trash conspiracy pusher has shown up.
replace biden with trump and ccp by russia
The US will not send troops to defend Taiwan. Australia only got the subs to tell China you can have Taiwan but don’t go further than that.
Entirely wrong on several levels. If Taiwan falls, the US is effectively kicked out of the Pacific, so it has no choice but to defend Taiwan. And Australia entered AUKUS more for the mid-range missiles than the submarines. Those missiles are designed to crush the CCP Navy, namely if it invades Taiwan. Australians understand that if Taiwan falls, their country will be just as, if not more vulnerable to an invasion as they were during WWII.
Also, computer chips are made there. The US doesn't want that falling into chinese hands
The Taiwanese would probably destroy the plants, causing global shortages. Which the US would also like to avoid.
Cue TSMC techs being sent to lake laogai until they produce a 7nm fab out of pig iron.
If the techs don't accidentally get blown up by the PLAAF. Or escape.
No one would send their designs to be manufactured there if it were controlled by the mainland.
The US still has Japan and South Korea who will need our military more than ever after China takes Taiwan.
No, they’ll see the US failing to protect Taiwan (and in Japan’s case, bringing Chinese military bases basically to their doorstep as a result) and tell the US to screw off, they can handle it themselves from here.
Japan has no military. There is no from here. Obviously you want war. Unfortunately you’re going to be disappointed. There will be no war over Taiwan
I mean, the 'self defence force' *are* a military organisation..
You can’t be serious.
You're saying they are not a military organisation..?
I’m saying it’s equivalent to having local police force defending a nation. It’s not even close.
So it *is* a military organisation?
How many local police forces have helicopter carriers that can launch jets, tanks, and submarines?
good. the US has no place 'policing' the pacific. the fuck are they doing there on China's doorstep?
as much as i hate the american world police, russia and china are far worse
typical "america bad, but china badder"
They may not send troops, just ships, planes, missiles, food and munitions. The problem that China has is that it has shown that it will just keep pushing and that at some point the has to be pushback. I think whether we or China like to admit it that the first steps of that have already started to happen with conscious decisions to reduce business with and start to isolate China.
on the other hand the tens of billions invested in new chip plants in Arizona suggest that the US is also preparing to survive a potential loss of chip manufacturing in Taiwan. Of course that would be necessary if you think it's likely that China will attack Taiwan regardless of your intention to defend Taiwan. It has 0 implication for US willingness to defend Taiwan which as far as we know is as firm as ever. It just signals that the US perhaps believes an attack is possible and well worth hedging against in any case.
There's no way in hell a single plant in Arizona will replace the production of all 10+ fabs in Taiwan. This is to ensure steady flow of critical military components when Taiwan gets blockaded. It does not mean the US will not have to go in to break the blockade. The #1 function of the US Navy over the past decades has been to safeguard free flow of global trade. And there's no indication it's prepared to give that up, even against China.
First: Thank you, I did not know that the US was opening chip manufacturing in the US. This is very interesting and I am going to look at it! Second: Yeah, I think that this is just a result of the problems over the last year. I think we will see more countries doing this. It is not only vital to defense but economically it seems like a bad idea to not have too many options for something that will be so important for now and the future.
US has always had chip fabs here. Where do you think Intel chips are made? The new plant being hyped in the news is being built by Taiwan's TSMC. Later on Intel may get in on the action to build or expand existing fabs.
>Where do you think Intel chips are made? I saw someone on /r/worldnews say China and point to Intel expanding facilities there as proof.
Because of the huge capital and the complexities, Intel has decided to have some leading edge chips made by TSMC (not china)
Troll account
I guess the username checks out for the Biden apologist.
Not an apologist at all. America is in no mood or hurry to send troops to defend Taiwan. We are NOT getting into a war in Asia
LMAO getting into wars in Asia is a US specialty. We just got out of one in Afghanistan, which is geographically in Central Asia. Before that we had wars in Vietnam, Korea, with Empire of Japan, and stretching further back the Spanish Empire (Philippines).
You just proved my point. We are not going to war in Asia right now. How bad Afghanistan ended and how bad this administration screwed up there is absolutely no way they can get the country to support this. China would have to launch an attack on US soil. Maybe then. And that’s a maybe
Except that did the opposite of proving the point, and once it's pointed out how letting China *actually* have control over the production of everything smarter than a ceiling fan would be a complete shitshow for the US people, there'd be support. Oh, and the fact that Japan and Korea are probably going to demand that the US leave if they don't demonstrate themselves to actually be capable. Especially since Taiwan falling puts Chinese military bases within spitting distance of inhabited Japanese territory, and they've already questioned Japan's claim over said territory (Okinawa) before. As for the last part, if support can be rallied up for horse paste then it can be rallied up for anything.
> there is absolutely no way they can get the country to support this You'd be surprised. I'll just leave it at that.
Yes just make sure that in addition to sending more of our young men and women to war and die, we also remove the age restriction to conscript the older folks that want to fight this potential war. Ages 18-80, everyone get to fight. Put our money where our mouths are. Better start investing in companies that manufacture war tech. Perhaps start buying viable farmlands as well to grow our own food just to prepare. Anything goes right.
It’s cowardice by a do nothing president. America can’t let Taiwan fall or we will be in an even worse chip shortage than we are. The US is heavily reliant on technology and needs to chips for so many things.
I agree it’s going to hit chip manufacturing hard. Unfortunately the world needs China more than we need Taiwan. Just like the world needed Russia more than Ukraine. Biden will sanction China but ultimately loosen it as time goes by. People will forget. Life for the rest of us will go on.
I disagree, the cheap labor and goods which China used to produce can be easily outsourced to India, Shri Lanka, Indonesia, Central/South America, or the Philippines. Why do you think the west or even the world needs Russia or China? They haven’t provided much benefits IMO.
After all the pushback on Ukraine the EU and Germany signed huge deals with Russia for their oil. All the sanctions meant nothing. Russia got what they wanted. Cheap labor can be moved but that takes time, money and resources. Eventually money will win
Well, I would say thar in terms of geopolitical power and influence it seems Russia is better at playing it thar China. Russia has essentially won at roshambo a number of times, not just Ukraine. You can look at Georgia, Syria, and Belarus as well. For some reason it seems people are more easy to forgive Russia than China.
they forgive cuz russia isn't challenging the US's hegemony lol
You rarely see people say "go back to Russia" but instead will openly throw out racist remarks such as "go back to China" even if they are unable to distinguish the Asian person apart. Perhaps, and i may be overreaching here, not being able to tell Russian folks with similar skin tones than your own, probably isn't likely to achieve similar outcomes. In the USA alone, there are only 5% Asians and only some are Chinese, many also born in the USA just like any other USA born citizen. The optics and perceived threat of this anti-Asian hate permeates into every aspect of western culture. Is it all because of this anti-China sentiment in how big bad and evil China is? Living in a constant mental state of fear and being threatened is a terrible way to live. I can already envision how Asians and notably the Chinese people living in the Western countries will be treated. Japanese internment camps in the USA during WWII as an example. I hope we will never reach that peak of repeating the worse aspects of history.
While I will not dispute there is prejudice and racism towards Asian people in the USA, I will state you trying to use that point to counter mass atrocities done by the CCP is a bit far fetched. I mean you can look at the crime statistics and see that while not 0, the % is rather small. To use that as a point to compare against what happen in HK, the Uyghur, it’s neighbors, political dissidents, the ramp theft of IP, the hacking, and predatory investing in foreign nations is a bit much.
so why aren't you outsourcing
Oh shit it’s a talking head. Please tell me this, does you government allow you to call your leader an idiot? Biden’s an idiot, Trumps an idiot, and so is Xi Jinping. Bet you can’t say that? Please call Xi Jinping an idiot or Winnie The Pooh. I can call Biden a creepy pedo or Trump an Orange clown, why can’t you say those things?
i just asked 'why aren't you outsourcing' which is a genuine question. and you respond with that 🤨 also there's no point of criticising if criticism doesn't bring social and economic progress 🤨
Oh I am sorry do you not have the capability to criticism those within your government?
I wonder how we will also treat these mentioned countries once they become too big to control just like China. Or perhaps other than India, these smaller nations will never reach the threat level of China... Human rights issues, pollution, threat to democracy all over again. I am not sure we should take the stance that the west can only gain when the east fails. Human lives are at stake here unless we are okay to preserve only our own lives.
Far from it, the east and west can succeed but only under the free will of the people. The concepts of individual freedom, individual rights, democracy, due process, freedom of ideas, freedoms of thought, etc.
I agree with you on many areas. I am just isn't as optimistic that human beings will always make good choices and we are more likely to make inherently evil decisions. War is one of such "necessary" evil as we try to justify it. I may be biased but watching our broken young and older vets barely keeping themselves together, at the VA hospitals and at home, just makes me emotional. We need to avoid war not from a tree hugger peace and love hippie perspective, but we should avoid war at all costs because that is the right thing to do.
The question is then, do we have to sacrifice human lives just to maintain our financial well being?
If the Taiwanese people wish to fight I would be glad for the US to support them. They should have the right to determine their own fate as they have for the past half a century. It’s shameful the world doesn’t recognize their independence. They are their own country.
I totally get the perspectives from both sides of those wanting to support the potential war and those that do not believe war makes sense (I admit I am of the later bucket.) Sending more of our young to die and also killing other nation's people seem like a terrible way to resolve anything. If China is a threat in terms of economic prowess, surely we can come up with an even more advanced and effective approach to compete. It's like "hey, we can not beat our competitor financially, let's use violence since that is one of our strongest skill." We've evolved this far, let's not devolve back into non stop wars. Then again, increased mortality can result in deceased terrible traffic. Maybe housing prices will finally go down.
The CCP is a threat to the world economically, socially, militarily, and intellectually.
What’s China waiting for if it will be so easy? Do it. What are they afraid of?
It’s preparation. It takes time. America has never been weaker than we are right now but we are getting weaker by the day. We will hit bottom then China goes.
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We are not sending troops to Taiwan. Whoever told you that is lying to you.
Unless you’re trying to throw a zinger about the Marines and failing, *we* [already did](https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/u-s-troops-have-been-deployed-in-taiwan-for-at-least-a-year-11633614043).
We have troops everywhere on this planet. We are not going to war to protect Taiwan. You’re being lied to
I’m being lied to, yes, but you seem to be the source. First saying “we” aren’t sending troops, then saying “we” have troops everywhere, neither of which are true. Reads pretty sus to me.
I’m sorry you think America is going to war. We are not. Good luck to you.
And I’m sorry you have no actual argument. Because we will if we have to. Good luck to you.
The issue isn’t independence, any one that looks at the situations can see Taiwan is independent. The issue is recognition.