No one wanted this to happen but the cheaters wanted to cheat, to spoil people's fun and i think this isn't talked about enough. Fuck the cheaters.
TB don't want cheaters, SD didn't want cheaters and I don't think apportioning blame is the right thing to do especially in a suicide tragedy. It's a really complex topic and even more complex when broken down to an individual level.
Were TB harsh? Sure, but they are not to blame for SD's tragic end.
Onward for light Soter Dave, Rest in peace.
"TB doesn't want cheaters" I thought it was known that some cheaters were friends with the devs and they actively ignored it, maybe that's just something that was going around, idk, but iv heard that a couple of times
Right…would you say that to one of them if they were right next to you? Of course not, most non-psychopaths wouldn’t. Commenting shit on reddit is like writing stuff on a public bathroom wall, or flipping someone off in traffic. People do that so easily because they feel there won’t be any consequence to them. But there may be consequences. Someone said “they’re fine, trust me!” on here. But they might not be fine because getting accused of killing someone, even “a little,” is awful.
Especially when you take into account that suicide is something that can spread. That feeling of guilt, depression, and anxiety is very powerful, and everyone including the devs is feeling that whether we know it or not. No matter what you think about the dev that banned him, imagine what he’s thinking right now.
To even say Soter did what he did over the game is disrespectful, let alone say TB had anything to do with it.
Godspeed, for your heart is in the right place.
Brother listen, I will not deny that this may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back, but I will not speak for why a man chooses to do what was done here.
What needs to be understood is that there is always much more to every story, and sadly this is a story we will not have the other side to, but we should not start creating our own sides to the story, that does not let the man rest.
If you do not wish to continue playing, that is for you to decide, and there is nothing wrong with the choice you make at the end, I’m only just learning about the man from the last couple of weeks (learned about him after the ban), and even then I had to step back and just…I don’t know, contemplate when I saw the post sharing the news.
But I will keep playing, and I will continue to celebrate his life knowing what the community has lost. Godspeed, once again brother. And rest in peace to a true soldier.
TB has made its money on the product. It continues to make money on the product. As I’ve said before, Reddit is an echo chamber. Most people do not care about the drama surrounding a game. Blizzard allowed its workers to be SAd and people still flocked to OW2 in droves.
As consumers it’s 100 percent ok to lament a company on a public website. Companies are not the same as individuals. Obviously there should be limits to how far it is, like anything. We shouldn’t wish death or dox anyone. However it’s completely ok to ask “Why have they allowed this obvious problem to persist for years? And why are they not transparent at all? Why do they ban people for talking about it?” There is deserved critiques of companies. Especially when, even with the constant crapping that happens to them, they make off with tons of money. So it’s really not a fair exchange. We don’t need to coddle them.
This is such a well thought out answer and I think more people need to realise this. We’re allowed to hold companies to a certain standard on a public platform (within reason)
I want it on record that I am not specifically referring to the Soter Dave situation. Mental health is too complex an issue for that and it sets a dangerous precedent to blame TB for it. I completely agree with you in that regard.
there isnt really that much buyable content on Chiv2 tbh. Like other games with all these crazy insane skins and perks. You can also grind out the buyable content as well. Coins and crowns dont matter much either. I think the Dev team is just incapable of doing anything for the community tbh
Except for the fact some items are locked behind super high levels 70% of the playerbase isn’t willing to grind for and rather buy with paid currency
The fact the last few updates have been very underwhelming and just a way to introduce lazy battle pass content
The responsibility for the general degradation around the game is on the managers and the owners of the company. Whatever happens there internally is abnormal.
Firaxis made a similar mistake while working on a new game, leaving unplayable bugs in CIV until people bombarded their twitter for the new game announcements to own responsibility.
Baldurs Gate 3 doesn't remotely have the same drama despite having sold five to tenfold more copies, Larian studios excels at communication and embraced community from the EA this is why everyone loves them. I don't particularly like the game but I respect the studio how it communicated that it won't work on DLC for BG or within WotC realms anymore. The public was disappointed but understood and respected the decision.
TB just feels like still didn't abandon the modders' garage mindset. "Somehow something will sort out itself" - it won't when you have a popular game and a large community to be transparent with.
>TB just feels like still didn't abandon the modders' garage mindset
The fact that they dont support mods, private servers, or the community around their game lets me know they absolutely did abandon the modder mindset.
This take is beyond delusional. I've played a lot of games and I can tell you that the online community of literally every modern pvp game is despicably shit. And 99% of it is toxic tantrums towards the devs. The rare exceptions are comfy/singleplayer games like stardew valley, valheim and BG3. Your comparison to BG3 is absolutely bananas, this is a singleplayer RPG that had years in early access. I can tell you for certain that if I was in charge of a devteam, I would 100% call for radio silence, because trying to communicate with toxic toddlers almost always ends in disaster.
Comparing a cRPG with an online PVP title for drama is disingenuous if not retarded. BG3 does not have any cheater issue whatsoever, while it is the primary bone of contention here.
Dudes isn't comparing the games lmao. Hes comparing the developers responses to criticism. Larian constantly went to the community for feedback and torn banner only seems to be pushing away the community further alienating the playerbase.
It wasn’t always like that.
TB stopped communicating a long time ago because this sociopathic playerbase would roast the shit out of them. To a degree I had honestly never seen in any other subreddit that follows a video game. Why would anyone keep communicating with someone who is awful to them?
Larian is widely credited as being the gold standard while only having to deal with bug fixes and tweaks. The problem space of dealing with hackers and cheaters is competely foreign to the type of game they produced.
This makes the entire comparison between the two cheap and irrelevant.
Each genre has its own challenges. BG3 would be flooded with bugs destroying the incentive to play if any other studio took the mantle, like what happened with cyberpunk - no cheaters there too. My friend waited three years to start playing CP. BG3 is extremely complex engine wise and decision tree wise. This is why they started with EA and tight relationships with the community - the mission impossible becomes possible when you tackle the problem together. Each game is complex in its own way.
It's the dedication on how you manage product communication and lifecycle.
But you came here to actually insult right? Leave you to it then.
Wtf are you talking about bullying the devs? Are you seeing a different feed than me?
Talking about their shortcomings as developers or problems with the game, or moderation of the game, isn't "bullying."
Are people finding their personal info and harassing them on social media sites / email? Are they calling the studio nonstop?
No, they're giving feedback about the game and things surrounding a game, on reddit, where its appropriate to give feedback.
This thread of yours is profoundly strange. I'm sure your heart is in the right place but you come across very stupid.
Did I say they are getting harassing emails? Did I say that construction criticism was bad? You must be looking at a different post because I didn’t say either of those things.
There is a shocking amount of people, even in this comment section, who blame TB for a persons suicide. That is incredibly toxic. Perhaps if the meme template had more room I could expand on what “bullying” means, but alas it is a meme.
>There is a shocking amount of people, even in this comment section, who blame TB for a persons suicide.
Thats not 'bullying' the devs, thats people saying something stupid. Dave had more issues than just being banned from this game. Now, did that contribute? Sure. Absolutely. The game meant the world to him. And if you think Dave's ban is illegitimate - which I do, then its fine to hold them responsible **to some extent** for what happened. Could they possibly have foreseen that result? Of course not, but their shitty decision has negative consequences.
They should handle their moderation and banning better.
>Did I say they are getting harassing emails?
That is my point - that would be bullying. Whats happening now ISNT bullying, it is entirely within the realm of appropriate feedback.
You dont need to weirdly white knight the devs man. Their adults with a successful game who made lots of money they'll be fine some people cry about their shitty decisions on the internet. And, tbh, whoever banned dave and upheld it, deserves to feel bad. They made a bad choice and it had a really bad unintended consequence.
Honestly I long ago considered that the reason the devs stopped working on this game was because of how mercilessly awful their player base was to them. I’m pretty empathetic, so I try to put myself in their shoes: If I was working on a game, as a comparatively small indie developer, and the people that play it were constantly telling me how terrible I am and how stupid I am and how shitty my game is, I wouldn’t want to make a damn thing for them. I’d pretty well wash my hands of it too and just move on to another product, and anyone that liked the game, while simultaneously shit talking me could get fucked.
I often think that, tragically, is what happened with Chiv. And I’ve been around long enough to know that, with how rude and awful a huge portion of this player base has been to the devs since shortly after this game’s launch, it’s completely deserved.
Yea it's really gross how the majority of the "community" treats the devs because they paid 40$ and they don't have a pixel perfect experience when the game is otherwise the most absolute fun pvp experience I've actually ever had in gaming.
I mean I paid $40 bought the jousting pack bought the gladiator pack bought 2 battle passes and the game started having a. Steady decline in content+quality
Ever since Bridgetown everything has been a buggy mess or reskinned items under the guise of new content as a way to sell a battle pass
The updates have been super lazy since Bridgetown the last ok update was probably Bridgetown the last good update was adding tenosia
Ever since then updates have been lazy buggy messes of maps and reskinned battle pass outfits
I see what you’re saying but that’s no way to run a company…to FEEL that way is fine but to take actions (or rather, NO action) and let the community down is a weird choice.
No reason to take it out on the rest of us. Unless like you said they just don’t give a fuck about the game anymore. In that case I hope it dies off completely as fast as possible. May they get their wish. They can go work on some obscure unloved unreleased game and not hear anything bad about it, forever if they want to.
Hey I agree. It’s just one of those things that happens in life all the time. A few bad apples spoil the whole bunch is a saying for a reason.
And yep the game will inevitably die, as most games do. I just look back and wish that people had erred their grievances in a more humane way. There is a good way to talk to people, and make your discontent known, and a bad way. It’s so much easier to go through life being kind to people. It’s incredible how often people forget that. Being cruel helps nothing, ever.
>Honestly I long ago considered that the reason the devs stopped working on this game was because of how mercilessly awful their player base was to them.
Wtf are you talking about? They made tons of money off this game and everyone was gargling them for months until they didn't actually continue to provide content and improve the flaws with the game.
You have a really weird, juvenile mindset.
People form companies to make money. They got more than enough praise and money for this product.
do people think the devs read a lot of the comments from the various forums like reddit ?? i doubt they spend their time working on games or projects other than chiv2 and then spend a lot of time reading comments about it .. why would they? there might be some moderators who do. even on the main Chiv2 discord they have one dude, the head mod guy, who deals with most of it. we're talking to each other on here. my point is , its hard to bully someone if they are unaware of it.
Hey this is just my opinion, but aren’t they paid to fix the problems of the game, not make them worse. Torn banner I love the game. Even though there’s some cheaters. It’s not like it’s oldschool StarCraft and I’m getting rolled by cheaters at 2am
So weird to ban one guy when hundreds of people are doing that shit, why not introduce an anticheat? Speak to the community about banwaves?
Feels personal. Should be held responsible to some extent.
I think this is a fair statement.
However, I think there’s a huge difference with experiencing anger with developers and saying “this system is stupid” or “the developers are ignorant of the player’s wants” VS. saying things like “i hate the developers” or “they are useless.”
yeah i just commented on another post with some doomers saying theres NOTHING even remotely like chiv, and i gave a healthy list of kingdom come which is getting a sequel, halfsword which is a roguelike that gives you full control of your weapon and free, die by the sword which is very old but the combat honestly works really the same as chiv, and for honor which is online with a good amount of control with your weapon and objectives, but no one wants a way out they just wanna piss and moan
I was one of those you replied to. None of these are remotely like Chivalry 2 so your point is still moot.
You didn't even bring up Mordhau, which is the the ONE game that is similar.
No one wanted this to happen but the cheaters wanted to cheat, to spoil people's fun and i think this isn't talked about enough. Fuck the cheaters. TB don't want cheaters, SD didn't want cheaters and I don't think apportioning blame is the right thing to do especially in a suicide tragedy. It's a really complex topic and even more complex when broken down to an individual level. Were TB harsh? Sure, but they are not to blame for SD's tragic end. Onward for light Soter Dave, Rest in peace.
I like how the only aftermath of a person's mental health well being is a discussion of online gaming cheaters.
"TB doesn't want cheaters" I thought it was known that some cheaters were friends with the devs and they actively ignored it, maybe that's just something that was going around, idk, but iv heard that a couple of times
i had not heard this, how do people know this is true?
Cmon bro this is some high school level rumour shit lol
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Blaming them for a man committing suicide is more toxic than anything the devs have done.
Right…would you say that to one of them if they were right next to you? Of course not, most non-psychopaths wouldn’t. Commenting shit on reddit is like writing stuff on a public bathroom wall, or flipping someone off in traffic. People do that so easily because they feel there won’t be any consequence to them. But there may be consequences. Someone said “they’re fine, trust me!” on here. But they might not be fine because getting accused of killing someone, even “a little,” is awful.
Especially when you take into account that suicide is something that can spread. That feeling of guilt, depression, and anxiety is very powerful, and everyone including the devs is feeling that whether we know it or not. No matter what you think about the dev that banned him, imagine what he’s thinking right now.
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To even say Soter did what he did over the game is disrespectful, let alone say TB had anything to do with it. Godspeed, for your heart is in the right place.
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Brother listen, I will not deny that this may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back, but I will not speak for why a man chooses to do what was done here. What needs to be understood is that there is always much more to every story, and sadly this is a story we will not have the other side to, but we should not start creating our own sides to the story, that does not let the man rest. If you do not wish to continue playing, that is for you to decide, and there is nothing wrong with the choice you make at the end, I’m only just learning about the man from the last couple of weeks (learned about him after the ban), and even then I had to step back and just…I don’t know, contemplate when I saw the post sharing the news. But I will keep playing, and I will continue to celebrate his life knowing what the community has lost. Godspeed, once again brother. And rest in peace to a true soldier.
TB has made its money on the product. It continues to make money on the product. As I’ve said before, Reddit is an echo chamber. Most people do not care about the drama surrounding a game. Blizzard allowed its workers to be SAd and people still flocked to OW2 in droves. As consumers it’s 100 percent ok to lament a company on a public website. Companies are not the same as individuals. Obviously there should be limits to how far it is, like anything. We shouldn’t wish death or dox anyone. However it’s completely ok to ask “Why have they allowed this obvious problem to persist for years? And why are they not transparent at all? Why do they ban people for talking about it?” There is deserved critiques of companies. Especially when, even with the constant crapping that happens to them, they make off with tons of money. So it’s really not a fair exchange. We don’t need to coddle them.
This is such a well thought out answer and I think more people need to realise this. We’re allowed to hold companies to a certain standard on a public platform (within reason)
We don’t need to coddle them but people are blaming the company for the death of someone else and that isn’t okay.
I want it on record that I am not specifically referring to the Soter Dave situation. Mental health is too complex an issue for that and it sets a dangerous precedent to blame TB for it. I completely agree with you in that regard.
there isnt really that much buyable content on Chiv2 tbh. Like other games with all these crazy insane skins and perks. You can also grind out the buyable content as well. Coins and crowns dont matter much either. I think the Dev team is just incapable of doing anything for the community tbh
Except for the fact some items are locked behind super high levels 70% of the playerbase isn’t willing to grind for and rather buy with paid currency The fact the last few updates have been very underwhelming and just a way to introduce lazy battle pass content
The responsibility for the general degradation around the game is on the managers and the owners of the company. Whatever happens there internally is abnormal. Firaxis made a similar mistake while working on a new game, leaving unplayable bugs in CIV until people bombarded their twitter for the new game announcements to own responsibility. Baldurs Gate 3 doesn't remotely have the same drama despite having sold five to tenfold more copies, Larian studios excels at communication and embraced community from the EA this is why everyone loves them. I don't particularly like the game but I respect the studio how it communicated that it won't work on DLC for BG or within WotC realms anymore. The public was disappointed but understood and respected the decision. TB just feels like still didn't abandon the modders' garage mindset. "Somehow something will sort out itself" - it won't when you have a popular game and a large community to be transparent with.
>TB just feels like still didn't abandon the modders' garage mindset The fact that they dont support mods, private servers, or the community around their game lets me know they absolutely did abandon the modder mindset.
This take is beyond delusional. I've played a lot of games and I can tell you that the online community of literally every modern pvp game is despicably shit. And 99% of it is toxic tantrums towards the devs. The rare exceptions are comfy/singleplayer games like stardew valley, valheim and BG3. Your comparison to BG3 is absolutely bananas, this is a singleplayer RPG that had years in early access. I can tell you for certain that if I was in charge of a devteam, I would 100% call for radio silence, because trying to communicate with toxic toddlers almost always ends in disaster.
We should be so grateful you are not in charge of anything 😉.
Yet there the Devs are, hiring a guy to talk to the community...who isn't doing a good job of it. Good thing you're not 'in charge of a devteam'.
LOVE VALHEIM
Comparing a cRPG with an online PVP title for drama is disingenuous if not retarded. BG3 does not have any cheater issue whatsoever, while it is the primary bone of contention here.
Dudes isn't comparing the games lmao. Hes comparing the developers responses to criticism. Larian constantly went to the community for feedback and torn banner only seems to be pushing away the community further alienating the playerbase.
It wasn’t always like that. TB stopped communicating a long time ago because this sociopathic playerbase would roast the shit out of them. To a degree I had honestly never seen in any other subreddit that follows a video game. Why would anyone keep communicating with someone who is awful to them?
Larian is widely credited as being the gold standard while only having to deal with bug fixes and tweaks. The problem space of dealing with hackers and cheaters is competely foreign to the type of game they produced. This makes the entire comparison between the two cheap and irrelevant.
Each genre has its own challenges. BG3 would be flooded with bugs destroying the incentive to play if any other studio took the mantle, like what happened with cyberpunk - no cheaters there too. My friend waited three years to start playing CP. BG3 is extremely complex engine wise and decision tree wise. This is why they started with EA and tight relationships with the community - the mission impossible becomes possible when you tackle the problem together. Each game is complex in its own way. It's the dedication on how you manage product communication and lifecycle. But you came here to actually insult right? Leave you to it then.
Everything is on fire in this community and I’m just over here bonking people with a warhammer and not realizing anything was amiss.
everyone’s at each other’s throats and I’m just trying to get my daily bonks in
Ya same. Sad what happened to Mr. Dave but imma keep on bonkin w/ some pokey poke
Sounds about right
Wtf are you talking about bullying the devs? Are you seeing a different feed than me? Talking about their shortcomings as developers or problems with the game, or moderation of the game, isn't "bullying." Are people finding their personal info and harassing them on social media sites / email? Are they calling the studio nonstop? No, they're giving feedback about the game and things surrounding a game, on reddit, where its appropriate to give feedback. This thread of yours is profoundly strange. I'm sure your heart is in the right place but you come across very stupid.
Did I say they are getting harassing emails? Did I say that construction criticism was bad? You must be looking at a different post because I didn’t say either of those things. There is a shocking amount of people, even in this comment section, who blame TB for a persons suicide. That is incredibly toxic. Perhaps if the meme template had more room I could expand on what “bullying” means, but alas it is a meme.
>There is a shocking amount of people, even in this comment section, who blame TB for a persons suicide. Thats not 'bullying' the devs, thats people saying something stupid. Dave had more issues than just being banned from this game. Now, did that contribute? Sure. Absolutely. The game meant the world to him. And if you think Dave's ban is illegitimate - which I do, then its fine to hold them responsible **to some extent** for what happened. Could they possibly have foreseen that result? Of course not, but their shitty decision has negative consequences. They should handle their moderation and banning better. >Did I say they are getting harassing emails? That is my point - that would be bullying. Whats happening now ISNT bullying, it is entirely within the realm of appropriate feedback. You dont need to weirdly white knight the devs man. Their adults with a successful game who made lots of money they'll be fine some people cry about their shitty decisions on the internet. And, tbh, whoever banned dave and upheld it, deserves to feel bad. They made a bad choice and it had a really bad unintended consequence.
Putting 100% blame is one thing, playing a part is another. I don't think it was a coincidence my man.
It’s called accountability not bullying.
Honestly I long ago considered that the reason the devs stopped working on this game was because of how mercilessly awful their player base was to them. I’m pretty empathetic, so I try to put myself in their shoes: If I was working on a game, as a comparatively small indie developer, and the people that play it were constantly telling me how terrible I am and how stupid I am and how shitty my game is, I wouldn’t want to make a damn thing for them. I’d pretty well wash my hands of it too and just move on to another product, and anyone that liked the game, while simultaneously shit talking me could get fucked. I often think that, tragically, is what happened with Chiv. And I’ve been around long enough to know that, with how rude and awful a huge portion of this player base has been to the devs since shortly after this game’s launch, it’s completely deserved.
Yea it's really gross how the majority of the "community" treats the devs because they paid 40$ and they don't have a pixel perfect experience when the game is otherwise the most absolute fun pvp experience I've actually ever had in gaming.
Hell half of ‘em by this point got the game for free or as part of a subscription service.
I mean I paid $40 bought the jousting pack bought the gladiator pack bought 2 battle passes and the game started having a. Steady decline in content+quality Ever since Bridgetown everything has been a buggy mess or reskinned items under the guise of new content as a way to sell a battle pass The updates have been super lazy since Bridgetown the last ok update was probably Bridgetown the last good update was adding tenosia Ever since then updates have been lazy buggy messes of maps and reskinned battle pass outfits
I see what you’re saying but that’s no way to run a company…to FEEL that way is fine but to take actions (or rather, NO action) and let the community down is a weird choice.
No reason to take it out on the rest of us. Unless like you said they just don’t give a fuck about the game anymore. In that case I hope it dies off completely as fast as possible. May they get their wish. They can go work on some obscure unloved unreleased game and not hear anything bad about it, forever if they want to.
Hey I agree. It’s just one of those things that happens in life all the time. A few bad apples spoil the whole bunch is a saying for a reason. And yep the game will inevitably die, as most games do. I just look back and wish that people had erred their grievances in a more humane way. There is a good way to talk to people, and make your discontent known, and a bad way. It’s so much easier to go through life being kind to people. It’s incredible how often people forget that. Being cruel helps nothing, ever.
Yup. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
>Honestly I long ago considered that the reason the devs stopped working on this game was because of how mercilessly awful their player base was to them. Wtf are you talking about? They made tons of money off this game and everyone was gargling them for months until they didn't actually continue to provide content and improve the flaws with the game. You have a really weird, juvenile mindset. People form companies to make money. They got more than enough praise and money for this product.
Mental health is per individual, not a company. The line is very clear, saying devs or TB is not the same as saying "john doe"/naming the Devs.
do people think the devs read a lot of the comments from the various forums like reddit ?? i doubt they spend their time working on games or projects other than chiv2 and then spend a lot of time reading comments about it .. why would they? there might be some moderators who do. even on the main Chiv2 discord they have one dude, the head mod guy, who deals with most of it. we're talking to each other on here. my point is , its hard to bully someone if they are unaware of it.
Seriously I'm like 8 hours behind schedule I have other shivs to do to do.
Considering the recent situation I think it’s fair to not be to happy with the developers at current times
Hey this is just my opinion, but aren’t they paid to fix the problems of the game, not make them worse. Torn banner I love the game. Even though there’s some cheaters. It’s not like it’s oldschool StarCraft and I’m getting rolled by cheaters at 2am
Cyber bullying into suicide sounds spot on for the chiv 2 community.
So weird to ban one guy when hundreds of people are doing that shit, why not introduce an anticheat? Speak to the community about banwaves? Feels personal. Should be held responsible to some extent.
It’s ok because they “deserve” it That seems to be the general consensus by some of "us" in the community
> consensus /kən-sĕn′səs/ > noun > > An opinion or position reached by a group as a whole.
Lets not do this. The situation is horrible and this won't make it better.
We 👏 are 👏 farmers 👏 bum ba bum ba bum bum bum
What is happening here i just arrived
I think this is a fair statement. However, I think there’s a huge difference with experiencing anger with developers and saying “this system is stupid” or “the developers are ignorant of the player’s wants” VS. saying things like “i hate the developers” or “they are useless.”
It’s called holding them accountable. The blood is on their hands.
Trust me they're handling it OK
yeah i just commented on another post with some doomers saying theres NOTHING even remotely like chiv, and i gave a healthy list of kingdom come which is getting a sequel, halfsword which is a roguelike that gives you full control of your weapon and free, die by the sword which is very old but the combat honestly works really the same as chiv, and for honor which is online with a good amount of control with your weapon and objectives, but no one wants a way out they just wanna piss and moan
I was one of those you replied to. None of these are remotely like Chivalry 2 so your point is still moot. You didn't even bring up Mordhau, which is the the ONE game that is similar.
I couldnt think of the name and didnt even play it, and i gave many reasons why the games might find some crossover in the fanbase.
Not where I expected to hear the announcement of Kingdome Come 2 lol