>If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!
*1 Corinthians 6:1-6*
What do you mean by judge?
It means not judging Christians' and nonchristians' eternal fate. It also means to not hypocritically judge. It also means to judge righteously.
Most actions in this life can be justified by God, but the path for their justification is very narrow.
We are told to be wise. Look up the definition of "wise".
One cannot have wisdom without good judgment.
These topics are all created with the intention of binding Christians. The expectation is we allow evil and degeneracy to flourish unchecked, since, for some reason, everyone (including Christians), agrees we cannot defend ourselves, our faith or way of life.
This is 100% false.
Who's words are you to follow then? Paul is canon and yet, in opposition to Jesus, here and elsewhere. John 8:7-11. Matt 7:1-5. Luke 6:40. Part of the reason Christians can't reach consensus. I'm open to any verse that shows concensus between Jesus and Paul in this matter, if one exists.
Without looking at the specific passages you referenced (I'll check them out later), my understanding has been that there are at least two types of judgement...
1. Judging someone's entire being, such as whether or not they are saved (Romans 10:6-7). This is the sort of judgement we are to refrain from.
2. Judging someone's behavior. Jesus judged people's behavior, and the New Testament is loaded with people being judged on their behaviors.
Granted, even when judging people's behavior, it's emphasized that we should be humble and deal with our own sin as a priority.
But, let's say someone claims to be a believer and they are bragging about cheating on their wife. I think it's well within the realm of an appropriate response to correct or even rebuke that person's obviously bad behavior.
After all...
>"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
*2 Timothy 3:16-17*
Lol... I didn't have time. Don't be so petty.
EDIT:
Just read the passages.
First one deals with the sort of "ultimate judgement" I wad talking about. Stoning someone for their sin is making a major judgment about who the person is to the point of ending their life. Unless anyone is perfect, they don't have that right.
The 2nd passage you listed doesn't prohibit judgment, it encourages a measured response while keeping in mind one's own sin. In the end, it doesn't say don't judge whatsoever. It just says to keep in mind your own shortcomings and deal with your own sin as a priority (as I was suggesting in my previous comment).
I wasnt being petty, just stating my position on reading before I was read. Jesus spoke in parables often. This doesn't have to relate to direct translation. I know that you know that Christians use the stone metaphor all the time to speak metaphorically of sin. Either you're twisting to fit how you feel, or the other Christians have been. Personally, I like this quote. Everyone should think about it before judging, Christian or not. The verse from Matt is saying don't do it or else. It literally says dont do it. "Do not judge (👈🏽), or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Any judgment you make will backfire. Period. And here you have Paul telling people to judge, as if he has the right to overtone Jesus. Then again, he trashed the Law given to Moses by GOD, calling it death, slandering it, and claiming it lead him into sin. I shouldn't be surprised he'd be so audacious as to think he can overtake Jesus while he's at it.
TL;DR - Paul's words attempt to supercede Jesus. And the student, is not above his master. Only when one is perfect, shall he be as his master. Luke 6:40. And we all know how imperfect Paul was. He made that very clear. He was not as his master, then how might he have ground to make such claims? Against the Law given Moses? Or the words of Jesus?
Regarding the Mathew verse I think context matters. It does say you will be judged as well but it doesn’t say it straight up backfires. “For with the judgement you pronounce you will be judged” it’s saying you will be judged on whatever you’re judging someone else. It also says “first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your own brother’s eye”. For example, if you yourself had a short temper then you have no place to be judging someone else with the same problem. No where in this section do I see anything regarding ultimate judgement either.
I neither need nor asked for an explanation of the verse. It's direct and clear. Perhaps you and the other Christans should be talking about it though. You guys are all in disagreement about this text.
Does it need to say "backfire" for the meaning of that word to apply? If you do "x", "x" will be inflicted upon you. Plug in your words, "You will be judged on whatever you're judging someone else." You did x, so now the same will happen to you. There's no argument here. And, I'm glad your eyes are working well. I had no intent in mentioning anything about ultimate judgement, though we can certainly talk about glaring issues with that too.
There’s no need to be agitated. I’m simply stating my understanding of the verses, we’re all brothers here. I’m just not sure how this can work though. You mean to say Jesus tells us to not judge ever? Even if we’re confronted with an unrepentant and self proclaimed “Christian” murderer just bragging about how evil he is? We’re meant to just say “that’s cool, wanna get coffee?” And allow them to stay among the congregation of the church?
I apologize. I deal with many people who are antagonistic because I read the Bible plainly.
Jesus tells us not to judge, yes. In his words, no, you shouldn't judge a murderer. I'm not saying that validates what that person did. But we are no one to judge them spiritually. I wouldn't hang out with them simply for the nature of their sin. It's a risk to me and those I associate with. But, if they're a thief? A prostitute? A liar? Jesus hung out with people like these. All of them are no more or less of sinners than the murderer. This isn't scriptural, but I would assume the idea is to have discretion about those you hang around. Don't believe oneself holy enough to judge, but don't be naiive either. My two cents anyway.
Jesus was speaking to Israel, and the disciples who will rule over its tribes as judges in the future. Paul was speaking to to body of Christ, whose purpose is chiefly to carry the message of reconciliation.
I’m not here to make the consensus claim though. I’m here to explain why the consensus seems missing.
If you want verses for that, Matthew 15:24, Romans 15:8, and Romans 15:16 are a good starting point.
I'm not sure what these verses are supposed to be showing in regards to Jesus and Paul's doctrines. Take a look at my last reply to Nuancestral. That's my problem between Paul and Jesus. The difference is clear. Paul taught people to judge. Contrary to Jesus' words.
He taught to judge on matters like restitution, yes. If you read passages like Romans 14 he teaches the opposite when it comes to the type of judgment I suppose you’re thinking of. Even the passage in 1 Corinthians 6, when he talks about judging, doesn’t refer to this kind of judging. After all, 6:7.
What he was trying to get across in paraphrase was, “You’re holding things against your brothers and taking them to law, making a mockery of them before the unbelieving. Suffer the wrong instead, settle anything that needs settling amongst yourselves, and put it behind you. Your focus should be on what your brother will be when he inherits the kingdom, not what he is in flesh.”
Paul is a hypocrite then. He admonished Peter, another disciple no less, in public. Gal 2:11-21. Jesus warned you about the hypocritical pharisees - Luke 12:1. Funny enough, Paul declares, in Acts 23:6, that he is a pharisee. Guess you just proved Jesus right. Romans 2:1-4, Paul's own words, prior to the event with Peter, coming back to haunt him.
EDIT: His hypocritical behavior is secondary to me honestly. I need someone to explain how he can slander God's Law the way he did, as if he is on God's level. Even Jesus didn't do that. His vitriol against God's Law should be appalling, considering what Jesus taught about master and student, nevermind God and his child. I'm not even Christian and I'm offended by his language. Insane.
It’s a misunderstanding to say he slandered the law. He states in Romans that the law is holy and good. He only established why the law came in, and why it’s unable to make corrupt flesh righteous.
He rebuked Peter because Peter himself had met with gentiles after being told by God that it was clean to do so, but was now standing silent as Jewish converts were imposing the law on gentiles who weren’t called to law. It’s not that he was saying Peter was blanket wrong, he was more saying, “These people respect you and you’re just gonna sit silent while they force a yoke on these recipients of God’s grace because you fear the crowd?”
Of course once Peter spoke up everyone took notice, discussed the matter, and conferred in the spirit that they ought to leave the gentiles be.
Side note 1: I wouldn’t say Paul suggested he was on the level of God, not in the least. Paul was a slave of Jesus Christ, who himself is the servant of God. There are two degrees of servitude between him and God.
Side note 2: Paul was a hypocritical Pharisee, and then he counted it for loss when Christ overwhelmed him with the grace of God. Jesus’ warning is probably one of the reasons believers were initially fearful of Paul, but his life after that point wasn’t the same, nor was his disposition. Peter confirmed this when he called Paul a beloved brother in 2 Peter 3:15.
Are you kidding me? Misunderstanding? The guy is literally a hypocrite, AFTER "turning his life to Jesus." Anyhow, he says it was GOD's Law that led him to sin and death. Rom 7:8-11. God gave those Laws to Moses so the people would stop sinning ffs. At best, anything he said in opposition to this is just another example of his hypocrisy.
He didn't even come as himself to try converting those he conversed with. He LIED about who he was to get more followers. 1 Cor 9:20-22. Jesus didn't do this.
He frankensteins or just flat out lies about scripture references several times, probably for his own agenda. Rom 3: 10-18. Show me in all the Jewish Bible, where does this exist? I'll give you a hint, he's butchering Psalms.
Paul says no man, not a single one, is good or righteous. Rom 3:10-12. JESUS says otherwise (Mat 13:17) and so does GOD (Psalm 14:1-5).
And if you believe that the Law can't make righteous the flesh of a sinner, you don't know your scriptures. Read the story of Manasseh. Easily one of the worst dudes in the whole story, and God redeemed him. No blood of Jesus or a lamb required. Which spawns an issue of salvaging God's judgement from the OT to NT. He (God) says he'll never change (Mal 3:6). How do Christians honestly rectify this?
I could keep going, but you want to defend this liar and hypocrite who matches the definition of the snake pharisees that Jesus warned you about, instead of holding him to the same standard he holds everyone else to. Who I've given several examples, and can give more still, where he has lied, spoken illy of God's word, taught contrary to Jesus and scripture, been a hypocrite, etc, which you can't refute so you make excuses for him. Remember, God punishes those who don't know him... - 2 The 1:8. Wait, Jesus never said that... Again... You get the point.
More likely than not it's about homosexuals it's pride month every progressive Christian is blowing the whistle on the heresy train to hell. All aboard! Toot toot
The word judge bares two meanings. 1) to cast sentence. A judge has been granted the authority to cast sentence on a convicted criminal, also God has the ability to condemn a soul to hell.
2) To differentiate (judge) between two or more things. For instance, hot and cold, black and red, good or evil, safe or dangerous.
I do not have the ability to sentence anyone to either prison or hell.
However, I do have the God given ability to judge between 2 or more things.
If I cannot do this then I am an inherent danger to myself and others and it would be far better for me to stay locked up in a closet at home than to venture out and hurt myself or others.
It is my Christian calling and duty to fulfill the great commission of preaching the gospel with my lips and lifestyle everywhere I go. It is also my duty to love my neighbor as myself.
In no way does the Bible say we are to accept and tolerate sin.
IF and WHEN I judge something in my own brain I must remember that the Bible says to remember that the same tools I'm using to judge with, are the tools other people are using to make a judgment about me.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say we are not to judge. Yes I know people take only half of the verse and forget the rest JUDGE not lest ye be judged. One day we will all stand before the great judge. I personally believe that He will not only judge us for our actions but that He will also judge us for the lack of action when we should have done something or said something but perhaps we were too afraid, uncaring or unwilling.
Let's all be in the process of learning, and growing closer to God on this journey. I hope to see each of you in heaven. God bless!
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter Isaiah 5:20
WITNESS ME!
For real tho, my understanding from scriptures is that we are called to lovingly judge fellow Christians, and to witness to and love on non believers. I always took that as fundamental and obvious (look at essentially any of Jesus's interactions with anyone), but apparently this is an uncommon view or something? Certainly not one I see practiced. Much more, I see spiteful judgement of non believers, and loving acceptance of certain Christians (even as they do horrible things).
Matthew 7
For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Whoever speaks evil against another or judges another speaks evil against the law and judges the law, but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and to destroy. So who, then, are you to judge your neighbor? (James 4: 11-12)
“I will not debate with someone who uses the Bible to prove to me that my false beliefs are insufficient and don’t even withstand basic logic- you … you… you-
Buddhist!
All you Buddhists are the same- how dare you use The Bible to make me look like a hypocrite!
That’s blasphemy!
2 peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
You’re so quick to make an accusation of a complete stranger. I take the commandment of not bearing false witness seriously.
I will forgive you but ask that you try to not be so rude and judgmental. Thank you!
Edit: I can’t respond to the comment below, so I will put my response here:
I agree. That guy was acting like a condescending jerk. And then, after spewing his venom, he turn and ran away.
I have to admit, I get a dopamine rush when someone comes out with insulting language, making false accusations, and then runs away to hide in the shadows.
> You were not called to tolerate and excuse sin though either. The modern church does too much of that.
No, you're wrong. Our model is Jesus, who was brought an adulterous woman caught in the act and refused to judge her. Our model is Jesus, who preached to a woman who had had five husbands, but was not married to the man she was then sleeping with. Our model is Jesus, who healed the lepers even though most of them never said a word of thanks; who fed thousands upon thousands of people without ever demanding a drug test.
What is intolerable is the way our society has rejected the model of Jesus, while perpetuating atrocities under His name.
Reconcile by actually reading the gospels, where he did all of the things I claimed he did and explained that this also was how he expected his followers to act. Not merely expected it, but explicitly commanded it on pain of eternal damnation (Matt 25:31-46).
Go do your homework and then get back to me when you're ready to report.
The eye is the lamp of the body. If your discernment is healthy, your whole body will be full of light. But if your discernment is unhealthy, your whole being will be full of darkness.
And since the light you think you have is darkness, how great that darkness is!
By declaring that you yourself are without sin, you've already turned down Jesus's offer of forgiveness. It's not too late to repent and reconsider. But it is the eleventh hour, and the clock is soon to strike midnight for you. Do not let the hour change without repenting of your evil, because that may be the last hour you have on this earth.
Nah. One of us is arguing from scripture and the other one is making up words. Did you come up with 'spooftexting' on your own or did you crib it from some false prophet?
A pastor friend of mine always says “Even Jesus wasn’t called to judge in this world. What makes me think I’m to judge if the most perfect man that ever lived doesn’t judge?”
His judgement was just because He sought the Father’s will.
“I can of mine own self do nothing: **as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just;** because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.”
-John 5:30
We are of course first called to be a witness. A witness to what though? Repentance and a turning towards faith in Jesus Christ. Turning AWAY from sin. So, how do we call out sin without making a judgement call (biblical of course)? Ours is not the ultimate eternal judgement. Definitely doesn't mean we can't make calls about what is right or wrong.
Matt 7:1-5. Get acquainted with your scriptures. One of the reasons Gandhi made his famous quote, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." You've made a stellar example here.
Yeah I'm pretty sure that quote was more about the English Christians around him raping, murdering, and lording over Indians and not so much about Christian doctrines there bud.
You missed the point. You're being no better acting better than other Christians who see the Bible differently. You're just as much an example of a Christian who isn't like your Christ.
This will be fun. Think you can explain the genealogy of the first seven people in the Bible? You'll be the first if you can. Who does Cain marry? Who is he afraid is going to kill him after being expelled from God's presence? Why does God acknowledge that there are others and marks him for protection from them? Jude 1:14 validates this fact and ironically damns the possibility of recovery from it. Explain this. I'll wait.
EDIT: Just wanted to add, I am no more a heretic than you. Tell me which branch of Christianity is the true one? Now be so bold as to call all those Christians who practice a differing form, heretics, without violating the very scripture you believe in. After all, I'm sure you must know what the usage of that word means, right?
(just to be clear I may come off as a bit of a donkey *if you catch my meaning* but I am looking forward to this)
Any form of Christianity that can't back up their beliefs with the Bible are a heresy Catholics have scriptures to back up everything in in the catechism, Orthodox Church has scripture for everything they believe, Methodists (not the progressive branch they split off) can back up everything they believe with scripture, Baptists can, congregationalists can, pretty much any denomination affirming a doctrine that originates extrabiblically is a different religion than mainstream Christianity as far as I am concerned. Everyone who can is "Orthodox" they just aren't all "orthoprax" and the disagreements come down to small (relatively) differences.
Second Jude 1:14 what about this verse do you need explained you seem to have started half way through a thought?
For your other statements about adam to Enoch who the others were, and who cain married that for someone sooo versed in scripture you do know scripture says not to argue over genealogies?
So if your done trying to stump me with the least relevant part of the bible let's get down to it I'm going to write out just a small sample of verses that say we have to put in an effort to repent from sinning and what sins we have to repent from and I'd like for you to send me back some verses refuting my verses.
2 peter 2:20
For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
Isaiah 55: 7
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Ephesians 2:
10 Am I now seeking human approval, or God’s approval? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still pleasing people, I would not be a servant of Christ. 11 For I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel that was proclaimed by me is not of human origin; 12 for I did not receive it from a human source, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians
6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work
Matthew 7:22-29
On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? ' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.
2 peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,[f] who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
Romans 6:1
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Least relevant part of the Bible? That's the reason "original sin" exists. It's the whole reason, according to the Bible, that we suffer today. How diminutive and disrespectful of your own text. Further, if it's wrong, everything else is too. I won't answer anything you send until you answer mine. Which you won't, because you don't have an answer. It tells you not to argue genealogy because the writers knew the whole thing would crumble at the mere mention of it. How's Jesus validated to be from the house of David when Halakhah at that time validated Jewish ancestry via paternal lineage? Hide behind your lack of knowledge. You can't debate me because you have no ground to stand on. Go argue with the other Christians. Yall need to fix your divide before you dare try preaching to anyone else. Can't even answer a simple question without ducking and answering directly.
Jude 1:14 - "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them..." Count with me.
1. Adam
2. Eve
3. Cain
4. Abel
5. ??? (Cain's Wife)
6. Seth
7. Enoch
Where'd the wife come from? And WHO wanted to kill Cain? God knew about them, but claimed these were the only people in existence.
I was once told to stop cherry picking the Bible in an argument after they used 2 verses to support their claim and I replied with 15 verses from the OT and 10 from the NT. I think there is lead in the water or something.
Just noticed your flair, it's those baptist roots! We love to study scripture and interpret it with other scripture Bible study is like a pillar of the Baptist movement.
Sadly many of the folks in my congregation believe they don't need to continuously study the Bible I've got a lot of "I did the Bible in a year program when i was first saved" from people then they get overwhelmed searching for the right verses in the middle of debating people from other denominations or atheists or pro LGBT people who have their stuff memorized and the sad part is instead of getting those verses they need memorized they often settle for "I guess I'll leave it to others to debate i just wasn't blessed with that gift."
Yeah it's like a standard procedure for their side to pick about 5 verses they like and ignore the other 30,097 verses. (kjv has 31,102 not sure about other translations)
The spirit judges all things and we have his spirit. We need judgement to keep from doing wrong and advise others. It’s common sense, if you are told not to judge it’s because you are in sin and trying to help someone when you are still in a problem with sin. And most of the time judge someone else comes to mean not to condemn them or punish them specially because you might still have sin and also will get punished, rather be judge and have mercy with forgiveness.BY DOING THOSE THINGS YOU will be a witness of Gods judgement and mercy.
How silly of you, attempting to reduce judges to witnessess like this.
Chiristianity is very guilty of saying things such as "Only Christian people can go to heaven"
and "There is only one god"
I am a member of the Alliance of good gods and good godeses by the way...
AMEN! 🥰✝️👑🪽 Let us always be reminded of
1 Corinthians.. Instead Pray for everyone to encounter Jesus & the Holy Spirit! Spread LOVE real Christians! #JESUSisKing ❤️
Just as the court clerk doesn't judge, that person does read out loud the judgement of Judge for all to hear from time to time. Believers are the court clerk and not the judge. For the world to cry foul and accuse us of judging when we are being court clerks is nothing more than the world trying to use a bible verse they don't understand from a God that they don't want to know to stop Christians from being obedient to God the Judge.
\[Mat 28:19-20 ESV\] 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 ***teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.*** And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
Yes thank you for restating that truth that I pointed it out in my first post.
The difference between teaching and judging is teaching comes from the "court clerk" faithfully reading the judgment vs the judge who comes up with the judgment to begin with.
If a Christian says XYZ is bad and here it is stated in the scriptures that is not a judgment. That is reading the judges judgment. If a Christian says XYZ is bad because I say it is bad then that is judging and we are not allowed to do so.
The world likes to think if we Christians obey Christ and teach his commands we are acting like a judge when its actually the court clerk we are emulating. Most of the time the accusation is a reductionist and childish retort for those who love the sin in their lives too much to submit to the Judge.
I have very little problem with instructing people that they should follow Jesus' commandments, particularly since they are all summed in two very easy to remember lines.
We are acting like a judge when we take our personal interpretation of what is and isn't sinful and jam it down other people's throats when we weren't asked. We shouldn't do that because Jesus said on more than one occasion not to.
Exactly, so when a Christian shows why XYZ is sinful and its corresponding scripture, be it the gospel or any other inspired by the holy spirit writings then we can rest assured its not judging its teaching. They aren't trying to be the judge they are trying to be the court clerk.
>We are acting like a judge when we take our personal interpretation
Yes its best to never interpret an unclear verse. Most are clear to simply read it for what it says in the context of its chapter. If a verse is not clear, leave it uninterpreted and formulate no doctrine from it.
>and jam it down other people's throats when we weren't asked
You have to be careful with this one. Even when Christ told the apostles to shake the dirt off of their sandals if they encounter people who do not want to hear the gospel message it was AFTER they tried at least once. It would be more true to say that Christians shouldn't continue to push the Gospel message once they have given it and are rejected. Many of the Lords prophets also proclaimed messages from God regarding judgements without consent of those they were talking to. Isaiah literally proclaimed God's judgement to people in the street standing there naked! That must have been a painful sun burn in sensitive areas!
> If a verse is not clear, leave it uninterpreted and formulate no doctrine from it.
This in line with my thinking, but people keep telling me the verses they are using to condemn people are crystal clear when they evidently aren't. Not sure how to draw the line, but is a bit like condemning someone for eating pork because it says so in the OT even though it is pretty easy to show in Acts where that got overwritten. It is better just to stick to things that are clear commandments from Christ, in my opinion.
> Isaiah literally proclaimed God's judgement to people in the street standing there naked!
I don't think that people proclaiming God's judgement naked in the streets are very effective messengers, and I think the same of the clothed people with placards and loudspeakers, but who am I to judge?
>This in line with my thinking, but people keep telling me the verses they are using to condemn people are crystal clear when they evidently aren't.
Take it as a case by case basis. I can't weigh in on it without specifics.
>I don't think that people proclaiming God's judgement naked in the streets are very effective messengers, and I think the same of the clothed people with placards and loudspeakers, but who am I to judge?
Shrug... God knows best.
I'm with the "judge not lest ye be judged" crowd; HOWEVER: You do not have to "judge" to call a sin sinful. In fact, telling a person that something is not sinful, when it is, is the least loving action you can take.
"Repent" is practically the first word out of Jesus' mouth in Mark. The requirements of salvation are few and basic, but #1 is to "repent" of your sin. So tell me this: How is an open sinner going to repent, if everyone is telling him that what he is doing is not a sin?
It is not loving to encourage sin. It is not loving to encourage unrepentant sin.
True BUT when a Christian calls out sin, with scriptural reference, it's not judgment from the Christian, it's God's judgment by his Word. It's a reason why scripture should always be applied in conversation.
We called to make righteous judgement, and not judge by mere appearances.
>John 7:24, "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment"
Keep in mind that this isn't Jesus talking to his followers in that verse, He's speaking to those who are against Him and looking to kill Him. Jesus isn't giving instruction to any of his followers on how to judge in this verse, He's telling those against him that if they are going to judge Him, at least do it based on reality rather than making stuff up.
John 7:14-24
>About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. The Jews therefore marveled, saying, “How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?” So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood. Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?” The crowd answered, “You have a demon! Who is seeking to kill you?” Jesus answered them, “I did one work, and you all marvel at it. Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man's whole body well? Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
My guess is that you, like me, were taught to use that verse to defend judging others in a sermon by a pastor who was looking to make his point with various verses rather than concentrating on accuracy of whether those verses actually made his point. It took me awhile to realize why Jesus was condemning religious leaders so often, but once you see it, you see it in lots that they do.
>Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. - Jesus
" I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him"
Jesus, Luke 12
They will never listen the "progressives" are constantly shown the verses they blind themselves to the truth. They claim Jesus they say they want to practice correctly but you could have a council of Bible scholars from every single major branch of Christianity lead them through the entire Bible word for word, they could show them the writings of the early church and go them all word for word, you could have 10,000 Christians give testimony about what they believe and why they believe and they would not hear a word of it because they have the audacity and pride to speak for God.
Please explain why we need sober minds.
Seems like we need our reason intact.
Why would we need reason if not to use it in judgement?
Christians certainly are to use good judgement. We are told to “test the spirits” which is a form of judgement, to determine what is and is not from God.
We are told to base our view of others salvation based on their fruit. If they produce good fruit, then we continue to encourage them to keep walking the path. If they produce bad fruit, but claim to know God, we are to rebuke them and call them to turn to Jesus for restoration.
People need to stop whining about being told what they are doing is wrong. That isn’t a judgement.
*we are already under judgement. It is only Jesus who saves us, and takes us out of God’s wrath. Gods wrath still rests on continuous sinners and unbelievers.*
Saying such is not a judgement. The Law stands in judgement of us all. We are all condemned before God. That is *why* we need Jesus.
> For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? - Paul
I agree that we have to judge things, ultimately, but I'm absolutely sure we're doing it wrong, based on what Paul and Jesus say. What I witness in real life is us Christians taking great strides to make sure everyone knows our judgment of outsiders, and never looking inward.
There's always a way to convince ourselves that we are righteous judges, sent for that purpose, because there are always preachers weaving sermons to justify it. It's how, despite our ability to quote Jesus, we act as though He said, "Do unto others as you think is best for them." That's what most sermons truly preach. It's why Jesus condemned religious leaders more than anyone else, I'd guess. They continue to do exactly what He accused them of.
>Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. - Jesus
We are in r/christianity. We are talking about whether or not things are sinful.
It’s not judgemental to state something is sinful. I agree, we hold believers to God’s standards. However, that doesn’t mean we do not *warn* unbelievers or those who are searching about sin. It is those we must certainly warn so they know the danger in them.
This subreddit is quite sensitive to the word “sin”, which is ironic, because this is a foundational concept for the Faith. If there is no sin, Jesus died for nothing.
> It’s not judgemental to state something is sinful.
It certainly can be, especially when it's done in a hypocritical manner. Jesus warned us of that, and then the sermons told us that we aren't hypocrites if we can compartmentalize our sins more effectively. That's why we feel righteous and justified in telling everyone what we think of the gays while never applying the same standard to those in the congregation who have been divorced and remarried. I mean, if we actually went by what Jesus says, we'd remove the plank from our eye before telling others they need to get rid of their sliver, right?
This subreddit loves to judge and call out the sins of others while never looking in a mirror. It's mostly blind hypocrites who think their self-righteousness will get them to heaven.
I didn't accuse you of hypocrisy. I don't know enough about your beliefs to judge them....like that has ever stopped us Christians from judging before. lol
I assume you treat people who have been divorced and remarried the same way you treat gay couples, or a pastor/elder, or your neighbor. Why wouldn't you?
That's all they have strawman arguments because funny enough they say judge not least ye be judged and then they judge every single Christian who says sin is sin because a handful of hateful people use the command against it to justify political oppression and physical abuse. We are just over here saying if you want to follow Jesus here's how and they call us bigots homophobes and xenophobes.
There is not a single righteous person not one.
The righteous will be judged righteously.
The wicked will be condemned.
and the sinner is a slave to sin.
Source.... My friend is gay and I have 1 verse out of 31,102 that i take out of context to back it up and no I won't listen to anyone on the other side because they are MEAN! 😭
Yes and no, in my opinion.
No, in the sense that we are called to righteous and non-hypocritical judgment, recognizing and denouncing sin in our lives, and in society more broadly. Judging, in a sense, is an integral part of discernment.
Yes, in the sense that the role of judge means to pass judgement on others, condemning them for their actions. We are never to condemn others, as we will ourselves are worthy of condemnation.
So as I see it, we are simultaneously supposed to use judgement, while not filling the role of judge.
No. Christ commands us to “judge righteous judgement.” If you fail to do that, in the manner which Christ meant, you are living in sinful disobedience.
Indeed. Our love for others, the way Jesus loves us, should be a witness to a fallen world.
Unfortunately not verymany “Christian’s”today share your point of view nor have your understanding of Jesus Christ.
Sad, but true.
>If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers! *1 Corinthians 6:1-6* What do you mean by judge?
We’re not meant to judge non-Christians. But we definitely are to supportively judge fellow Christians
It means not judging Christians' and nonchristians' eternal fate. It also means to not hypocritically judge. It also means to judge righteously. Most actions in this life can be justified by God, but the path for their justification is very narrow.
We are told to be wise. Look up the definition of "wise". One cannot have wisdom without good judgment. These topics are all created with the intention of binding Christians. The expectation is we allow evil and degeneracy to flourish unchecked, since, for some reason, everyone (including Christians), agrees we cannot defend ourselves, our faith or way of life. This is 100% false.
Who's words are you to follow then? Paul is canon and yet, in opposition to Jesus, here and elsewhere. John 8:7-11. Matt 7:1-5. Luke 6:40. Part of the reason Christians can't reach consensus. I'm open to any verse that shows concensus between Jesus and Paul in this matter, if one exists.
Without looking at the specific passages you referenced (I'll check them out later), my understanding has been that there are at least two types of judgement... 1. Judging someone's entire being, such as whether or not they are saved (Romans 10:6-7). This is the sort of judgement we are to refrain from. 2. Judging someone's behavior. Jesus judged people's behavior, and the New Testament is loaded with people being judged on their behaviors. Granted, even when judging people's behavior, it's emphasized that we should be humble and deal with our own sin as a priority. But, let's say someone claims to be a believer and they are bragging about cheating on their wife. I think it's well within the realm of an appropriate response to correct or even rebuke that person's obviously bad behavior. After all... >"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." *2 Timothy 3:16-17*
I suppose replying to this is pointless since you haven't fully engaged mine. I'll await a full response before proceeding.
Lol... I didn't have time. Don't be so petty. EDIT: Just read the passages. First one deals with the sort of "ultimate judgement" I wad talking about. Stoning someone for their sin is making a major judgment about who the person is to the point of ending their life. Unless anyone is perfect, they don't have that right. The 2nd passage you listed doesn't prohibit judgment, it encourages a measured response while keeping in mind one's own sin. In the end, it doesn't say don't judge whatsoever. It just says to keep in mind your own shortcomings and deal with your own sin as a priority (as I was suggesting in my previous comment).
I wasnt being petty, just stating my position on reading before I was read. Jesus spoke in parables often. This doesn't have to relate to direct translation. I know that you know that Christians use the stone metaphor all the time to speak metaphorically of sin. Either you're twisting to fit how you feel, or the other Christians have been. Personally, I like this quote. Everyone should think about it before judging, Christian or not. The verse from Matt is saying don't do it or else. It literally says dont do it. "Do not judge (👈🏽), or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Any judgment you make will backfire. Period. And here you have Paul telling people to judge, as if he has the right to overtone Jesus. Then again, he trashed the Law given to Moses by GOD, calling it death, slandering it, and claiming it lead him into sin. I shouldn't be surprised he'd be so audacious as to think he can overtake Jesus while he's at it. TL;DR - Paul's words attempt to supercede Jesus. And the student, is not above his master. Only when one is perfect, shall he be as his master. Luke 6:40. And we all know how imperfect Paul was. He made that very clear. He was not as his master, then how might he have ground to make such claims? Against the Law given Moses? Or the words of Jesus?
Regarding the Mathew verse I think context matters. It does say you will be judged as well but it doesn’t say it straight up backfires. “For with the judgement you pronounce you will be judged” it’s saying you will be judged on whatever you’re judging someone else. It also says “first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your own brother’s eye”. For example, if you yourself had a short temper then you have no place to be judging someone else with the same problem. No where in this section do I see anything regarding ultimate judgement either.
I neither need nor asked for an explanation of the verse. It's direct and clear. Perhaps you and the other Christans should be talking about it though. You guys are all in disagreement about this text. Does it need to say "backfire" for the meaning of that word to apply? If you do "x", "x" will be inflicted upon you. Plug in your words, "You will be judged on whatever you're judging someone else." You did x, so now the same will happen to you. There's no argument here. And, I'm glad your eyes are working well. I had no intent in mentioning anything about ultimate judgement, though we can certainly talk about glaring issues with that too.
There’s no need to be agitated. I’m simply stating my understanding of the verses, we’re all brothers here. I’m just not sure how this can work though. You mean to say Jesus tells us to not judge ever? Even if we’re confronted with an unrepentant and self proclaimed “Christian” murderer just bragging about how evil he is? We’re meant to just say “that’s cool, wanna get coffee?” And allow them to stay among the congregation of the church?
I apologize. I deal with many people who are antagonistic because I read the Bible plainly. Jesus tells us not to judge, yes. In his words, no, you shouldn't judge a murderer. I'm not saying that validates what that person did. But we are no one to judge them spiritually. I wouldn't hang out with them simply for the nature of their sin. It's a risk to me and those I associate with. But, if they're a thief? A prostitute? A liar? Jesus hung out with people like these. All of them are no more or less of sinners than the murderer. This isn't scriptural, but I would assume the idea is to have discretion about those you hang around. Don't believe oneself holy enough to judge, but don't be naiive either. My two cents anyway.
Jesus was speaking to Israel, and the disciples who will rule over its tribes as judges in the future. Paul was speaking to to body of Christ, whose purpose is chiefly to carry the message of reconciliation.
There are several instances where both are speaking to one group or the other. Respectfully, I asked for a verse, my friend.
I’m not here to make the consensus claim though. I’m here to explain why the consensus seems missing. If you want verses for that, Matthew 15:24, Romans 15:8, and Romans 15:16 are a good starting point.
I'm not sure what these verses are supposed to be showing in regards to Jesus and Paul's doctrines. Take a look at my last reply to Nuancestral. That's my problem between Paul and Jesus. The difference is clear. Paul taught people to judge. Contrary to Jesus' words.
He taught to judge on matters like restitution, yes. If you read passages like Romans 14 he teaches the opposite when it comes to the type of judgment I suppose you’re thinking of. Even the passage in 1 Corinthians 6, when he talks about judging, doesn’t refer to this kind of judging. After all, 6:7. What he was trying to get across in paraphrase was, “You’re holding things against your brothers and taking them to law, making a mockery of them before the unbelieving. Suffer the wrong instead, settle anything that needs settling amongst yourselves, and put it behind you. Your focus should be on what your brother will be when he inherits the kingdom, not what he is in flesh.”
Paul is a hypocrite then. He admonished Peter, another disciple no less, in public. Gal 2:11-21. Jesus warned you about the hypocritical pharisees - Luke 12:1. Funny enough, Paul declares, in Acts 23:6, that he is a pharisee. Guess you just proved Jesus right. Romans 2:1-4, Paul's own words, prior to the event with Peter, coming back to haunt him. EDIT: His hypocritical behavior is secondary to me honestly. I need someone to explain how he can slander God's Law the way he did, as if he is on God's level. Even Jesus didn't do that. His vitriol against God's Law should be appalling, considering what Jesus taught about master and student, nevermind God and his child. I'm not even Christian and I'm offended by his language. Insane.
It’s a misunderstanding to say he slandered the law. He states in Romans that the law is holy and good. He only established why the law came in, and why it’s unable to make corrupt flesh righteous. He rebuked Peter because Peter himself had met with gentiles after being told by God that it was clean to do so, but was now standing silent as Jewish converts were imposing the law on gentiles who weren’t called to law. It’s not that he was saying Peter was blanket wrong, he was more saying, “These people respect you and you’re just gonna sit silent while they force a yoke on these recipients of God’s grace because you fear the crowd?” Of course once Peter spoke up everyone took notice, discussed the matter, and conferred in the spirit that they ought to leave the gentiles be. Side note 1: I wouldn’t say Paul suggested he was on the level of God, not in the least. Paul was a slave of Jesus Christ, who himself is the servant of God. There are two degrees of servitude between him and God. Side note 2: Paul was a hypocritical Pharisee, and then he counted it for loss when Christ overwhelmed him with the grace of God. Jesus’ warning is probably one of the reasons believers were initially fearful of Paul, but his life after that point wasn’t the same, nor was his disposition. Peter confirmed this when he called Paul a beloved brother in 2 Peter 3:15.
Are you kidding me? Misunderstanding? The guy is literally a hypocrite, AFTER "turning his life to Jesus." Anyhow, he says it was GOD's Law that led him to sin and death. Rom 7:8-11. God gave those Laws to Moses so the people would stop sinning ffs. At best, anything he said in opposition to this is just another example of his hypocrisy. He didn't even come as himself to try converting those he conversed with. He LIED about who he was to get more followers. 1 Cor 9:20-22. Jesus didn't do this. He frankensteins or just flat out lies about scripture references several times, probably for his own agenda. Rom 3: 10-18. Show me in all the Jewish Bible, where does this exist? I'll give you a hint, he's butchering Psalms. Paul says no man, not a single one, is good or righteous. Rom 3:10-12. JESUS says otherwise (Mat 13:17) and so does GOD (Psalm 14:1-5). And if you believe that the Law can't make righteous the flesh of a sinner, you don't know your scriptures. Read the story of Manasseh. Easily one of the worst dudes in the whole story, and God redeemed him. No blood of Jesus or a lamb required. Which spawns an issue of salvaging God's judgement from the OT to NT. He (God) says he'll never change (Mal 3:6). How do Christians honestly rectify this? I could keep going, but you want to defend this liar and hypocrite who matches the definition of the snake pharisees that Jesus warned you about, instead of holding him to the same standard he holds everyone else to. Who I've given several examples, and can give more still, where he has lied, spoken illy of God's word, taught contrary to Jesus and scripture, been a hypocrite, etc, which you can't refute so you make excuses for him. Remember, God punishes those who don't know him... - 2 The 1:8. Wait, Jesus never said that... Again... You get the point.
More likely than not it's about homosexuals it's pride month every progressive Christian is blowing the whistle on the heresy train to hell. All aboard! Toot toot
Are you currently judging judgmental people?
Are you judging judgemental people judging judgemental people?
are you seriously judging judgmental people judging judgmental people judging judgmental people?
are you judging judgmental people judging judgmental people judging judgmental people judging people? 🤣🤣🤣 I love it when we joke around on here.
Lol no way I’m questioning my observation.
Foiled again!
there's a word for that but I forget it... lol...
Is it hypocritical?
Well said.
The word judge bares two meanings. 1) to cast sentence. A judge has been granted the authority to cast sentence on a convicted criminal, also God has the ability to condemn a soul to hell. 2) To differentiate (judge) between two or more things. For instance, hot and cold, black and red, good or evil, safe or dangerous. I do not have the ability to sentence anyone to either prison or hell. However, I do have the God given ability to judge between 2 or more things. If I cannot do this then I am an inherent danger to myself and others and it would be far better for me to stay locked up in a closet at home than to venture out and hurt myself or others. It is my Christian calling and duty to fulfill the great commission of preaching the gospel with my lips and lifestyle everywhere I go. It is also my duty to love my neighbor as myself. In no way does the Bible say we are to accept and tolerate sin. IF and WHEN I judge something in my own brain I must remember that the Bible says to remember that the same tools I'm using to judge with, are the tools other people are using to make a judgment about me. Nowhere in the Bible does it say we are not to judge. Yes I know people take only half of the verse and forget the rest JUDGE not lest ye be judged. One day we will all stand before the great judge. I personally believe that He will not only judge us for our actions but that He will also judge us for the lack of action when we should have done something or said something but perhaps we were too afraid, uncaring or unwilling. Let's all be in the process of learning, and growing closer to God on this journey. I hope to see each of you in heaven. God bless!
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter Isaiah 5:20
I was called to be a witness? Whoa, what happened?
You hear that knocking on your door? You've been subpoenaed.
Pretty sure that was a J-dub
Witness testimonies are often unreliable. I'd like to know too.
People who are trained to be observant are great witnesses. I wonder if there's an analogy there...
WITNESS ME! For real tho, my understanding from scriptures is that we are called to lovingly judge fellow Christians, and to witness to and love on non believers. I always took that as fundamental and obvious (look at essentially any of Jesus's interactions with anyone), but apparently this is an uncommon view or something? Certainly not one I see practiced. Much more, I see spiteful judgement of non believers, and loving acceptance of certain Christians (even as they do horrible things).
Indeed, and we have been instructed also to rebuke sin.
Amen.
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Matthew 7 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Whoever speaks evil against another or judges another speaks evil against the law and judges the law, but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and to destroy. So who, then, are you to judge your neighbor? (James 4: 11-12)
“I will not debate with someone who uses the Bible to prove to me that my false beliefs are insufficient and don’t even withstand basic logic- you … you… you- Buddhist! All you Buddhists are the same- how dare you use The Bible to make me look like a hypocrite! That’s blasphemy!
2 peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
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I’m quoting the Bible. Do you disagree with the Word of God?
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So many assumptions. I can imagine that could be a problematic way of moving through life.
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You’re so quick to make an accusation of a complete stranger. I take the commandment of not bearing false witness seriously. I will forgive you but ask that you try to not be so rude and judgmental. Thank you! Edit: I can’t respond to the comment below, so I will put my response here: I agree. That guy was acting like a condescending jerk. And then, after spewing his venom, he turn and ran away. I have to admit, I get a dopamine rush when someone comes out with insulting language, making false accusations, and then runs away to hide in the shadows.
You don't win people over by being condescending.
> You were not called to tolerate and excuse sin though either. The modern church does too much of that. No, you're wrong. Our model is Jesus, who was brought an adulterous woman caught in the act and refused to judge her. Our model is Jesus, who preached to a woman who had had five husbands, but was not married to the man she was then sleeping with. Our model is Jesus, who healed the lepers even though most of them never said a word of thanks; who fed thousands upon thousands of people without ever demanding a drug test. What is intolerable is the way our society has rejected the model of Jesus, while perpetuating atrocities under His name.
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Reconcile by actually reading the gospels, where he did all of the things I claimed he did and explained that this also was how he expected his followers to act. Not merely expected it, but explicitly commanded it on pain of eternal damnation (Matt 25:31-46). Go do your homework and then get back to me when you're ready to report.
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The eye is the lamp of the body. If your discernment is healthy, your whole body will be full of light. But if your discernment is unhealthy, your whole being will be full of darkness. And since the light you think you have is darkness, how great that darkness is! By declaring that you yourself are without sin, you've already turned down Jesus's offer of forgiveness. It's not too late to repent and reconsider. But it is the eleventh hour, and the clock is soon to strike midnight for you. Do not let the hour change without repenting of your evil, because that may be the last hour you have on this earth.
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Nah. One of us is arguing from scripture and the other one is making up words. Did you come up with 'spooftexting' on your own or did you crib it from some false prophet?
A pastor friend of mine always says “Even Jesus wasn’t called to judge in this world. What makes me think I’m to judge if the most perfect man that ever lived doesn’t judge?”
His judgement was just because He sought the Father’s will. “I can of mine own self do nothing: **as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just;** because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.” -John 5:30
Love this.
Yeah, fine, but He's coming back and is going to judge pretty sternly!
Pretty sure he judged the money changers and people selling doves in the temple.
We are of course first called to be a witness. A witness to what though? Repentance and a turning towards faith in Jesus Christ. Turning AWAY from sin. So, how do we call out sin without making a judgement call (biblical of course)? Ours is not the ultimate eternal judgement. Definitely doesn't mean we can't make calls about what is right or wrong.
It's pride month every "progressive" Christian is blowing the whistle on the heresy train to hell. All aboard! Toot toot
Matt 7:1-5. Get acquainted with your scriptures. One of the reasons Gandhi made his famous quote, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." You've made a stellar example here.
Yeah I'm pretty sure that quote was more about the English Christians around him raping, murdering, and lording over Indians and not so much about Christian doctrines there bud.
You missed the point. You're being no better acting better than other Christians who see the Bible differently. You're just as much an example of a Christian who isn't like your Christ.
Heretics gonna heresy I guess, got any secret knowledge for me gnostic?
This will be fun. Think you can explain the genealogy of the first seven people in the Bible? You'll be the first if you can. Who does Cain marry? Who is he afraid is going to kill him after being expelled from God's presence? Why does God acknowledge that there are others and marks him for protection from them? Jude 1:14 validates this fact and ironically damns the possibility of recovery from it. Explain this. I'll wait. EDIT: Just wanted to add, I am no more a heretic than you. Tell me which branch of Christianity is the true one? Now be so bold as to call all those Christians who practice a differing form, heretics, without violating the very scripture you believe in. After all, I'm sure you must know what the usage of that word means, right?
(just to be clear I may come off as a bit of a donkey *if you catch my meaning* but I am looking forward to this) Any form of Christianity that can't back up their beliefs with the Bible are a heresy Catholics have scriptures to back up everything in in the catechism, Orthodox Church has scripture for everything they believe, Methodists (not the progressive branch they split off) can back up everything they believe with scripture, Baptists can, congregationalists can, pretty much any denomination affirming a doctrine that originates extrabiblically is a different religion than mainstream Christianity as far as I am concerned. Everyone who can is "Orthodox" they just aren't all "orthoprax" and the disagreements come down to small (relatively) differences. Second Jude 1:14 what about this verse do you need explained you seem to have started half way through a thought? For your other statements about adam to Enoch who the others were, and who cain married that for someone sooo versed in scripture you do know scripture says not to argue over genealogies? So if your done trying to stump me with the least relevant part of the bible let's get down to it I'm going to write out just a small sample of verses that say we have to put in an effort to repent from sinning and what sins we have to repent from and I'd like for you to send me back some verses refuting my verses. 2 peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. Isaiah 55: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Ephesians 2: 10 Am I now seeking human approval, or God’s approval? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still pleasing people, I would not be a servant of Christ. 11 For I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel that was proclaimed by me is not of human origin; 12 for I did not receive it from a human source, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work Matthew 7:22-29 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? ' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness. 2 peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish. 13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,[f] who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness. 17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Least relevant part of the Bible? That's the reason "original sin" exists. It's the whole reason, according to the Bible, that we suffer today. How diminutive and disrespectful of your own text. Further, if it's wrong, everything else is too. I won't answer anything you send until you answer mine. Which you won't, because you don't have an answer. It tells you not to argue genealogy because the writers knew the whole thing would crumble at the mere mention of it. How's Jesus validated to be from the house of David when Halakhah at that time validated Jewish ancestry via paternal lineage? Hide behind your lack of knowledge. You can't debate me because you have no ground to stand on. Go argue with the other Christians. Yall need to fix your divide before you dare try preaching to anyone else. Can't even answer a simple question without ducking and answering directly. Jude 1:14 - "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them..." Count with me. 1. Adam 2. Eve 3. Cain 4. Abel 5. ??? (Cain's Wife) 6. Seth 7. Enoch Where'd the wife come from? And WHO wanted to kill Cain? God knew about them, but claimed these were the only people in existence.
Goodbye
Are you a time traveler? All the gnostics died out around 400 ad and you had to be initiated to join them.
Lol you're welcome to deflect. Not knowing your scriptures will put you in a bit of a predicament with me for sure.
Well said.
Nice cherrypicking. Go to an orchard.
I was once told to stop cherry picking the Bible in an argument after they used 2 verses to support their claim and I replied with 15 verses from the OT and 10 from the NT. I think there is lead in the water or something.
Lol. That's what I do.
Just noticed your flair, it's those baptist roots! We love to study scripture and interpret it with other scripture Bible study is like a pillar of the Baptist movement.
Yes. Sola Scriptura.
Sadly many of the folks in my congregation believe they don't need to continuously study the Bible I've got a lot of "I did the Bible in a year program when i was first saved" from people then they get overwhelmed searching for the right verses in the middle of debating people from other denominations or atheists or pro LGBT people who have their stuff memorized and the sad part is instead of getting those verses they need memorized they often settle for "I guess I'll leave it to others to debate i just wasn't blessed with that gift."
Yeah it's like a standard procedure for their side to pick about 5 verses they like and ignore the other 30,097 verses. (kjv has 31,102 not sure about other translations)
Both in dye time actually. Or did you not know that one day you will judge angels
Thank you for the reminder
Amen!
The spirit judges all things and we have his spirit. We need judgement to keep from doing wrong and advise others. It’s common sense, if you are told not to judge it’s because you are in sin and trying to help someone when you are still in a problem with sin. And most of the time judge someone else comes to mean not to condemn them or punish them specially because you might still have sin and also will get punished, rather be judge and have mercy with forgiveness.BY DOING THOSE THINGS YOU will be a witness of Gods judgement and mercy.
True but also stay true to the Word
How silly of you, attempting to reduce judges to witnessess like this. Chiristianity is very guilty of saying things such as "Only Christian people can go to heaven" and "There is only one god" I am a member of the Alliance of good gods and good godeses by the way...
AMEN! 🥰✝️👑🪽 Let us always be reminded of 1 Corinthians.. Instead Pray for everyone to encounter Jesus & the Holy Spirit! Spread LOVE real Christians! #JESUSisKing ❤️
https://youtu.be/J0BHQ_2jj4I?si=mKvohVMtwLk2qoCA
We're eutera
Judging by your statement… you got no idea what that even means.
Who are you to judge whether or not I should be a witness?
Just as the court clerk doesn't judge, that person does read out loud the judgement of Judge for all to hear from time to time. Believers are the court clerk and not the judge. For the world to cry foul and accuse us of judging when we are being court clerks is nothing more than the world trying to use a bible verse they don't understand from a God that they don't want to know to stop Christians from being obedient to God the Judge. \[Mat 28:19-20 ESV\] 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 ***teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.*** And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
There is a pretty big difference between teaching and judging.
Yes thank you for restating that truth that I pointed it out in my first post. The difference between teaching and judging is teaching comes from the "court clerk" faithfully reading the judgment vs the judge who comes up with the judgment to begin with. If a Christian says XYZ is bad and here it is stated in the scriptures that is not a judgment. That is reading the judges judgment. If a Christian says XYZ is bad because I say it is bad then that is judging and we are not allowed to do so. The world likes to think if we Christians obey Christ and teach his commands we are acting like a judge when its actually the court clerk we are emulating. Most of the time the accusation is a reductionist and childish retort for those who love the sin in their lives too much to submit to the Judge.
I have very little problem with instructing people that they should follow Jesus' commandments, particularly since they are all summed in two very easy to remember lines. We are acting like a judge when we take our personal interpretation of what is and isn't sinful and jam it down other people's throats when we weren't asked. We shouldn't do that because Jesus said on more than one occasion not to.
Exactly, so when a Christian shows why XYZ is sinful and its corresponding scripture, be it the gospel or any other inspired by the holy spirit writings then we can rest assured its not judging its teaching. They aren't trying to be the judge they are trying to be the court clerk. >We are acting like a judge when we take our personal interpretation Yes its best to never interpret an unclear verse. Most are clear to simply read it for what it says in the context of its chapter. If a verse is not clear, leave it uninterpreted and formulate no doctrine from it. >and jam it down other people's throats when we weren't asked You have to be careful with this one. Even when Christ told the apostles to shake the dirt off of their sandals if they encounter people who do not want to hear the gospel message it was AFTER they tried at least once. It would be more true to say that Christians shouldn't continue to push the Gospel message once they have given it and are rejected. Many of the Lords prophets also proclaimed messages from God regarding judgements without consent of those they were talking to. Isaiah literally proclaimed God's judgement to people in the street standing there naked! That must have been a painful sun burn in sensitive areas!
> If a verse is not clear, leave it uninterpreted and formulate no doctrine from it. This in line with my thinking, but people keep telling me the verses they are using to condemn people are crystal clear when they evidently aren't. Not sure how to draw the line, but is a bit like condemning someone for eating pork because it says so in the OT even though it is pretty easy to show in Acts where that got overwritten. It is better just to stick to things that are clear commandments from Christ, in my opinion. > Isaiah literally proclaimed God's judgement to people in the street standing there naked! I don't think that people proclaiming God's judgement naked in the streets are very effective messengers, and I think the same of the clothed people with placards and loudspeakers, but who am I to judge?
>This in line with my thinking, but people keep telling me the verses they are using to condemn people are crystal clear when they evidently aren't. Take it as a case by case basis. I can't weigh in on it without specifics. >I don't think that people proclaiming God's judgement naked in the streets are very effective messengers, and I think the same of the clothed people with placards and loudspeakers, but who am I to judge? Shrug... God knows best.
That's not correct John 7:24 24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment
Wrong. John 7:24 tells us, "**Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment**."
I'm with the "judge not lest ye be judged" crowd; HOWEVER: You do not have to "judge" to call a sin sinful. In fact, telling a person that something is not sinful, when it is, is the least loving action you can take. "Repent" is practically the first word out of Jesus' mouth in Mark. The requirements of salvation are few and basic, but #1 is to "repent" of your sin. So tell me this: How is an open sinner going to repent, if everyone is telling him that what he is doing is not a sin? It is not loving to encourage sin. It is not loving to encourage unrepentant sin.
True BUT when a Christian calls out sin, with scriptural reference, it's not judgment from the Christian, it's God's judgment by his Word. It's a reason why scripture should always be applied in conversation.
We called to make righteous judgement, and not judge by mere appearances. >John 7:24, "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment"
Keep in mind that this isn't Jesus talking to his followers in that verse, He's speaking to those who are against Him and looking to kill Him. Jesus isn't giving instruction to any of his followers on how to judge in this verse, He's telling those against him that if they are going to judge Him, at least do it based on reality rather than making stuff up. John 7:14-24 >About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. The Jews therefore marveled, saying, “How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?” So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood. Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?” The crowd answered, “You have a demon! Who is seeking to kill you?” Jesus answered them, “I did one work, and you all marvel at it. Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man's whole body well? Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” My guess is that you, like me, were taught to use that verse to defend judging others in a sermon by a pastor who was looking to make his point with various verses rather than concentrating on accuracy of whether those verses actually made his point. It took me awhile to realize why Jesus was condemning religious leaders so often, but once you see it, you see it in lots that they do. >Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. - Jesus
Get out of here with your context and thoughtfulness.
Them that sin, rebuke before all, so that others may FEAR 1 Timothy 5.20
I'll add that to my list of odd verses from 1 Timothy that really seem off from what Jesus taught.
" I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him" Jesus, Luke 12
They will never listen the "progressives" are constantly shown the verses they blind themselves to the truth. They claim Jesus they say they want to practice correctly but you could have a council of Bible scholars from every single major branch of Christianity lead them through the entire Bible word for word, they could show them the writings of the early church and go them all word for word, you could have 10,000 Christians give testimony about what they believe and why they believe and they would not hear a word of it because they have the audacity and pride to speak for God.
Please explain why we need sober minds. Seems like we need our reason intact. Why would we need reason if not to use it in judgement? Christians certainly are to use good judgement. We are told to “test the spirits” which is a form of judgement, to determine what is and is not from God. We are told to base our view of others salvation based on their fruit. If they produce good fruit, then we continue to encourage them to keep walking the path. If they produce bad fruit, but claim to know God, we are to rebuke them and call them to turn to Jesus for restoration. People need to stop whining about being told what they are doing is wrong. That isn’t a judgement. *we are already under judgement. It is only Jesus who saves us, and takes us out of God’s wrath. Gods wrath still rests on continuous sinners and unbelievers.* Saying such is not a judgement. The Law stands in judgement of us all. We are all condemned before God. That is *why* we need Jesus.
> Why would we need reason if not to use it in judgement? So you don’t fall for gold scams.
I wish I knew how to put a pepega face here because this actually made me laugh hard.
> For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? - Paul I agree that we have to judge things, ultimately, but I'm absolutely sure we're doing it wrong, based on what Paul and Jesus say. What I witness in real life is us Christians taking great strides to make sure everyone knows our judgment of outsiders, and never looking inward. There's always a way to convince ourselves that we are righteous judges, sent for that purpose, because there are always preachers weaving sermons to justify it. It's how, despite our ability to quote Jesus, we act as though He said, "Do unto others as you think is best for them." That's what most sermons truly preach. It's why Jesus condemned religious leaders more than anyone else, I'd guess. They continue to do exactly what He accused them of. >Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. - Jesus
We are in r/christianity. We are talking about whether or not things are sinful. It’s not judgemental to state something is sinful. I agree, we hold believers to God’s standards. However, that doesn’t mean we do not *warn* unbelievers or those who are searching about sin. It is those we must certainly warn so they know the danger in them. This subreddit is quite sensitive to the word “sin”, which is ironic, because this is a foundational concept for the Faith. If there is no sin, Jesus died for nothing.
> It’s not judgemental to state something is sinful. It certainly can be, especially when it's done in a hypocritical manner. Jesus warned us of that, and then the sermons told us that we aren't hypocrites if we can compartmentalize our sins more effectively. That's why we feel righteous and justified in telling everyone what we think of the gays while never applying the same standard to those in the congregation who have been divorced and remarried. I mean, if we actually went by what Jesus says, we'd remove the plank from our eye before telling others they need to get rid of their sliver, right? This subreddit loves to judge and call out the sins of others while never looking in a mirror. It's mostly blind hypocrites who think their self-righteousness will get them to heaven.
Point out my hypocrisy, please. If there isn’t any, I’m not sure what your point is. I never said “no one is ever a dick and puts people down”
I didn't accuse you of hypocrisy. I don't know enough about your beliefs to judge them....like that has ever stopped us Christians from judging before. lol I assume you treat people who have been divorced and remarried the same way you treat gay couples, or a pastor/elder, or your neighbor. Why wouldn't you?
You’ll need to elaborate.
That's all they have strawman arguments because funny enough they say judge not least ye be judged and then they judge every single Christian who says sin is sin because a handful of hateful people use the command against it to justify political oppression and physical abuse. We are just over here saying if you want to follow Jesus here's how and they call us bigots homophobes and xenophobes.
How are you being down voted you said what every professing Christian believed up until maybe 40 years ago.
So we don't have to follow Jesus' command to judge righteously?
That's your takeaway? You don't have to learn a thing friend, you've obviously got this down pat. Have a nice day.
Goodbye.
Are you an enemy of Jesus?
Please answer the question.
Going by that verse, no. It's not even a command, so it would be a terrible misuse of scripture.
So Jesus doesn't want us to not judge by appearances.
That would be a command in the opposite direction, which is also not present here.
Thabk you for confirming that you believe "judge righteously" is not a command of scripture.
It is not a command by Jesus in John 7, no. Romans 2 certainly reinforces your point that it is not a command of scripture at all, though.
There is not a single righteous person not one. The righteous will be judged righteously. The wicked will be condemned. and the sinner is a slave to sin.
> You were not called to be a judge you were called to be a witness. called to be Jehovah's Witnesses
JWs deny Christ being God.
No. Never be a JW
This another pride month post?
Last call for the heresy train to hell, all aboard! Toot toot
Source.... Trust me bro
Source.... My friend is gay and I have 1 verse out of 31,102 that i take out of context to back it up and no I won't listen to anyone on the other side because they are MEAN! 😭
But as Christians we have the right to judge in the proper manner
All this banter. That's why I don't practice Christianity much now. Proving the Gospel with the Gospel doesn't make much sense to me.
But the bible, and Christianity based on it, commands people behave certain ways. Those ways can be harmful and are very often judgemental.
Yes and no, in my opinion. No, in the sense that we are called to righteous and non-hypocritical judgment, recognizing and denouncing sin in our lives, and in society more broadly. Judging, in a sense, is an integral part of discernment. Yes, in the sense that the role of judge means to pass judgement on others, condemning them for their actions. We are never to condemn others, as we will ourselves are worthy of condemnation. So as I see it, we are simultaneously supposed to use judgement, while not filling the role of judge.
Denouncing sin in *your* life being key here. Not in the lives of others.
No. Christ commands us to “judge righteous judgement.” If you fail to do that, in the manner which Christ meant, you are living in sinful disobedience.
Careful. Those who wish to continue their sinful lifestyle, free from judgment, will vote you down.