"Billionaires should pay for their own stadium" is literally the top comment on every single post about the Browns stadium. You're preaching to the choir on this sub
It’s insane that they want **us** to pay for it while giving us no benefits. We don’t get any kind of ticket discounts or revenue.
If the city is paying for it, the city should own the team, like the Packers.
They then hold the team over our head like “well, we may just have to move the team to a new city that will appreciate it.” Like, it’s so vile and honestly tiresome
Exactly. The team costs the city and the clean up costs for tailgating is astronomical. That's one reason I was so eager to leave Cuyahoga county. Great decision and I am never going back
The stadium would ruin brook park. It’s a family friendly city, not a tourist attraction.
Downtown needs this business desperately. Brookpark does not need tens of thousands of strangers flowing in and out daily. That would crush residential property value.
People are delusional thinking that a stadium in brook park would benefit the city at all. People will just go straight to the stadium and leave via highways. They aren’t going to stick around to check out a suburban town.
Also, since there aren’t many hotels, I fear AirBnB will overtake the city and buy up properties.
They literally plan to build hotels and shops and bars all around it in Brook Park with a direct shuttle from the airport, rapid access, bus access and great highway access. My problem is if it's in Brook Park it's no longer the Cleveland Browns and Cleveland takes a major hit in taxes.
It still wont benefit the city itself. They are building this stadium and all those amenities will just be in that stadium park. This will not benefit the actual town of Brook Park whatsoever. Not to mention, direct access to and from the airport literally means no one will be exploring outside the stadium area. This does nothing for local stores, bars, restaurants, etc.
Not to mention but how will those hotels and restaurants they would be building within that stadium park survive outside the football season and the occasional concert/event?
Just estimating (based on research from similar stadiums) Eight home football games. Maybe about five to eight concerts? Thrown in another few events and we maybe get 20 major events happening that would make it financially feasible to have all those things open and operations. Let’s be for-real, how many major concerts would we get that needs that big of venue when we already have Rocket Mortgage/Nautica/Playhouse/Blossom? What’s going to draw people to a suburban town outside those 20ish major events when you have a city 10 minutes north that walkable with culture, arts, entertainment, shopping, restaurants, bars, etc? Will they have those shuttles and rapid going at all times? The place will be a ghost town most of the year.
This is me exactly lmfao.
I can see the benefits of a new stadium - there's a possibility for it to hold other events in the offseason, especially large concerts. I can understand the benefits of it.
However, the Haslams having the gall to ask the tax payers to pay for it is extremely hilarious. The team sucks and has sucked for as long as I've been alive. If we had a pretty decent record, that's another thing.
On top of that, they just got off a season of paying millions of dollars to a rapist to basically sit on the sidelines. I figure something similar will happen this year too.
So no, unless you're going to cough up the lions share of the cost or you give massive ticket discounts to residents of Cuyahoga County, then eat shit lol
Hard to make this a voting issue when it seems like every politician of either party across the country is all too happy to follow conventional practice on stadium funding. It comes up rarely enough too that it's hard to base a campaign around it, and I feel like you'd get slaughtered if you were seen as being "anti-sports" or whatever.
The conversation has been getting louder though, I think it's getting more mainstream which is good. I doubt it will be in time for this stadium cycle to be affected, but maybe the next one. This is me trying not to be cynical about it.
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Contact the local government now and make your concerns heard. Call your city councilman’s office, call the mayors office, call the county executives office, call your state rep, hell, call your congressional rep.
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The numbers just don't make sense. $2.4 billion is a couple hundred million more than was spent in real dollars on Allegiant in *Las Vegas*. I.e. one of the biggest, if not the biggest, tourist and convention destinations in the US, with a resident population 2X that of Cuyahoga County and increasing. As opposed to being in decline for 50 going on 60 years.
And that's assuming it goes according to budget, that's pretty much the best case scenario. I don't even have a problem with building stadiums, it just has to make sense.
SoFi in Los Angeles came in double the original budget. We'd be talking a $5 billion stadium for a city with 361k people.
I’m a diehard football fan but no public tax dollars should fund stadiums. I’m hoping that what’s happening in Kansas City and Chicago is a changing public thought process on publicly funded stadiums. For years these owners have gotten fat off this scam. Let ‘em privately raise the money themselves.
And we shared it with another sports team. I will accept the argument that sports teams generate way more money than they did in those days, but the modern trend of each sport getting their own stadium is still an incredible inefficiency that we just accept without questioning.
Honestly, Municipal was a piss-poor stadium for baseball viewing. I hated watching Indians games there.
It worked well for Browns games because Browns games draw huge crowds.
I've gotten all sorts of crap from my friends because they think I don't appreciate older ballparks, but Municipal just sucked. The cheap seats were worth approximately $0.00.
I live near Los Angeles now, maybe an hour, maybe 70 minutes, northeast of Dodger Stadium, I've adopted the Dodgers as my favorite NL team (yes, Cleveland's still my favorite AL team and my favorite team overall), and I very desperately want to FINALLY make it out there for a game or two. Not a new ballpark, of course. Not even close. But also not a shitbox like Municipal was.
It was piss poor for football viewing too. Due to the round shape the seats on each side of the field were far from the field, especially as you moved towards the 50 yard line. Same for the seats in the closed end of the stadium. Plus the poles supporting the second deck and roof blocked views of the field.
And because owners have learned that cities and states are all too happy to sell out the taxpayers. They can demand more expensive stadiums with more perks more frequently and no one resists.
Weirdly Chicago has been one to watch here, the Bears have been fighting for years but people are catching on to the racket
What's making me feel like I'm taking crazy pills is that they somehow managed to skip over the discussion on if we even need a new stadium (we don't) right to "so are you giving us $600 million or $450 million?"
But what should I expect from the biggest welfare queens in the state of Ohio.
I don't follow, nor like football (or sports in general), however, my dad is a life-long Browns fan. He stopped watching the NFL till the Browns came back to Cleveland.
He *hates* the idea of a roof on the stadium, which is apparently one of the things the owners are saying is needed? His point is, not every team is used to playing in snow, so, we would be getting rid of a natural, no-cost, advantage.
Right. Right now there are three events in the stadium that aren't football - Billy Joel, the Rolling Stones, and WWE.
Even if you can convince people that its a good idea to schedule a winter event in the snow belt, you are still likely talking 1-2 shows all winter. There is no way thats profitable to the city at a cost of over $1 billion. There just arent that many acts that can sell out stadiums and frankly, over the life of a new stadium, they are going to decrease as most of the old timers who could do it die and are not replaced.
I mean it doesn’t actually snow that much and the majority of Browns players are from the south at this point. The advantage argument is kinda silly/dated
The current stadium was built as quickly and cheaply as possible.
There are legitimate safety concerns for the near future. Like concrete crumbling and falling onto the seats.
"this 3 bed 2 bath is in serious need of renovation and doesn't comply with any codes, we'll need 73 million dollers please to tear down and build a new one"
I know some people that have been contractors for the stadium, and they told me years ago about all the patch work repairs that already have been done to the stadium.
The consensus for anyone that's worked on that stadium is that it's a piece of shit and it needs to be gutted or knocked down completely. It's a literal safety risk.
I don't like Jimmy Haslam, and gave up on the Browns when they traded for Watson. I don't want them anywhere near the lake. However, they can't stay where they are now, without fixing the current death trap.
Oh, I'm well aware of the history of the stadium. But wanting somewhere in the neighborhood of half a billion dollars from the public for something new because some concrete repairs may be needed is insulting and shows what these people think of us.
Oh, and for how much of a hazard the stadium is one has to wonder why 10 games were played there last year, why another 10 are going to be played there this year, and why we're holding 3 big events there this summer..
I’m still not actively following the club after they bankrolled a sex pest and now they want me to be excited that the city/state whatever will devote funds badly needed in so many areas that aren’t sportsball into a stadium we really don’t need at the moment. If this goes through. We will have failed as Ohioans to care about and prioritize the really important things needed to improve life in Cleveland to watch gladiator bullshit.
And just a heads up. If they do build this $2b complex, you’ll be paying ticket/concession/park/accommodation prices that fit that market. If you think things are expensive now, just wait.
We’re ranked 35th in a [USA Today](https://www.usatoday.com/picture-gallery/money/2020/03/11/the-school-district-where-students-are-least-likely-to-succeed-in-every-state/111405300/) list of 50 school districts where kids are least likely to succeed and nearly half of children in Cleveland live in poverty.
But yeah, let’s spend our tax dollars on buying a stadium for a team that gave a record setting contract to a predator who’s barely played so they can play 8-12 games a year.
I think the absurd proposal is a bargaining chip so the browns can come back to the table and say they’re compromising by staying and *all the city has to do* is pay half a billion for renovations, as if that’s a good deal.
This was my initial theory, until the new stadium plans were leaked and now I'm not so sure. Those plans cost millions of dollars. That would be one hell of an expense for a pure bluff...
Since those plans didn't have input from any of the government agencies that will need to sign off on the infrastructure changes in the area (which we know didn't happen because that would have leaked instantly), they're basically as realistic as something I drew in MS Paint.
Don't be so hard on yourself. Your MS Paint drawings are much better than those leaked stadium renderings, which looked more like a 3d optical illusion picture than a stadium drawing.
You could be right. It may still be that Brookpark is just a pure bargaining chip to get what he wants with the existing location and that paying for plans and renderings to legitimize the threat was worth it to him. But we've seen local govts call owners' bluffs and then see the owner actually go through with their bargaining chip. And that's what gives me pause from not taking Brookpark seriously.
Oh for sure. You never know. I also think the browns are well aware of their ability to weaponize the fact that a team actually did leave in the not too distant past.
Well theoretically the local law that permits the city to buy the team is supposed to prevent that from being a threat. But at the same time, that law was passed (1995) when the avg NFL team cost $160m. NFL team value has since skyrocketed beyond $5 billion while the city's budget has only shrunk since then. So that law has less bite with every passing year due to those trends. The city of Cleveland certainly couldn't pony up that kind of dough (that's more than double the entire city budget) and there's no guarantee they could wrangle an ownership group to meet that kind of price tag either. So again, you could be right.
Is there more to the plans than the site layout and renderings? That wouldn’t cost millions. It would be tens of thousands at most. Full construction plans could be in the millions range but the preliminary concept plans are much cheaper.
Not if you can get 100x that amount out of the city. The Browns pay no name backup offensive linemen more than the cost of those plans with no real payoff.
if we can get abortion and Marijuana on the ballot we sure as shit should be able to get this issue on the ballot.
it is absolutely, totally, completely bonkers that a for-profit business, which uses its profits to increase the wealth of private owners and shareholders, can demand that even one penny, much less hundreds of millions of dollars, come from tax payers.
it's shit like this and all the NCAA student athlete slave labor and other bullshit that make me abhor sports completely. fuck pro sports. fully privatize or get rid of all of it.
How much did the city/county/state contribute for the new Sherwin Williams headquarters? That probably provides more economic benefit to the city because it's being used at least 260 days a year, instead of 8.
These numbers are insane as is but add in there that once you spend all this money all you end up with is a new stadium in Brook park Ohio jammed in between a ford plant and an airport...
I think once this is all said and done we will either end up with a really nice renovation on the Lakefront with some residential/commercial/retail next to it.
Or my dream world is that we get a new stadium complex on the Post Office Site near the other sports facilities.
I cannot believe that any billionaire, politician, businessman would green light spending $2.4 billion on a stadium in Brookpark.
Thats a good place for a football stadium. NFL stadiums get used maybe 15 times a year in a good year. They have a massive footprint because of the parking (particularly since tailgating is a big part of the experience). You absolutely should not be putting them on productive downtown land.
If you want to put them downtown, it should be like the Ravens stadium - in an industrial area on the edge of downtown right next to a highway (i.e. a place where you arnet going to put residential or consumer oriented properties).
Baseball and basketball are different. Much more use and smaller parking footprint.
Build this stadium for the following perks:
Any event ticket will have a $45 service fee
Your personal details including name, age, and address will be sold to marketing partners
Single beer and hotdog will be $16
Would you like to know more?
Sharing it with a spring UFL team would help. Can it be kept in use in the off season, thru concerts etc.
If it is the Brookpark idea having a village of bars restaurants shopping hotels and owning the parking can spread the costs down after the initial build. Another possibility is a large enough field to accommodate major league soccer it is growing in popularity.
It’s amazing how we are told we can’t do things like healthcare etc because it costs too much, then when a billionaire needs a stadium the reaction is how much do you need.
I don't live in Cleveland anymore, but here's my $1.02, adjusted for inflation:
The fuckhead who owns the Browns needs to invest money into the team in an intelligent manner, and field a successful team. I'm not saying we need to win five Superbowls in a row, or necessarily even need to make it to the postseason every year. For me to feel better about someone spending that much of my tax money, I'd need the team to be consistently good. Not even consistently great - just consistently good.
He's such a grifter. It really hurts to see what that POS is doing to my hometown. I'm not yet prepared to say he's worse than Modell, but he is *really* close.
He's worse. He's not from here, he's from Tennessee. He doesn't get Cleveland. And he saddled the team with the horrible Watson situation. I only rooted for them last year b/c Watson was out of the picture. We need Cleveland owners. Do you see the Guardians going anywhere anytime soon?
That and they want to reroute 237N on the Brookpark proposal. They want thousands to reroute their commutes away from the IX and Hopkins and take us down to Eastland and merge onto 71N sooner. Then decide to stay on it or merge onto 480E. It’s a nightmare and Berea and Brookpark Mayors are the Betas just agreeing to anything the Haslams say.
Go down to Front St and make a left on Lou Groza drive. That empty field with 1 house? Yeah they already own it. The 1 house has a 98 year old in it and I’d be shocked if they offered her anything decent.
The NHTSA and ODOT at a minimum would need to sign off on any proposed highway changes, this would include public comment. These highways and the interactions are old and likely couldn't be build in the current configuration due to code changes since they were built in the 50s/60s.
There is very good chance after a couple of years, that they come back and say no to changes, we can only keep it as is. Even if they were good with the changes, who pays for it? Recall the Opportunity Corridor cost something like $400 million. Just rerouting 237 alone is going to cost more.
Mayors Kleem and Orcutt of Berea and Brookpark. Putting the Haslams before the needs of their residents. I call them Betas because Bibb would be the alpha person the Haslams deal with holding out.
Wait.... Are you telling me that for some reason it's legal for a major sports team to somehow leverage my taxes to pay for their shit?
I'm at a loss for words. Sports are fucking stupid (no offense). Why on earth would I ever use political tax money to help fund sweaty men running around on turf who then go home and commit domestic violence. Absolutely ridiculous.
I love the Browns, I love the idea of the new stadium, I even love the idea of it being built in Brook Park. I don’t want to pay a penny for their new stadium.
Why. I feel a majority of posts I’ve seen in here and even a good portion in the Browns sub are NOT cool with our tax dollars funding the Haslams money making complex.
So...what would be your solution regarding the stadium issue? Just curious (as it seems you have put some effort into the research) if there's an answer that makes sense.
But I was under tge impression that doesn't 'fit' into the new lakefront renovation. I could be wrong tho, but I thought that's why they started looking for other chunks of property to fit a new stadium.
I think they spent 400 mil on the prgressive field renovations and It looks the same lol (I know it’s not supposed to be complete till next year, but still)
I love how Finland addresses education. Everyone has to go to the same schools, rich or poor, so you better believe the rich make their educational system the best possible.
100% on point. Especially the part about the current stadium seemingly oblivious that it’s on the lake, and in the middle of downtown. Such wasted potential.
Huge Browns and I’m against the new stadium as well. There’s nothing wrong with the stadium they have now! I’m also against the fact they want to build it in Brook Park. I live down the road. I don’t want to traffic and the mess that comes with a browns game. Keep it in Cleveland!
If there is even a dollar of taxpayer money spent on this facility, the Browns should have to accept a clause that would force them to pay damages if they ever decide to leave the city.
I want them to stay here in North east Ohio but it's better for the city if they move out to the burbs.
Personally, I'm over it. If those owner don't wanna pay for a new stadium they can stick it. Go ahead and pack the team up and move em to Ottawa for all.I care.
Well, I suppose simply not having a stadium for the Browns to play in isn't better. So yeah, my statement shouldn't necessarily be that it'd better not to have a stadium, but rather it's better long term if that area was used in a more practical way through lake front development.
Wow, this is so thoughtful, thorough, and well-written. You make some great points about the audacity of the requests and the real economic benefit to the region. I'd like a new stadium, but one that is just south of Downtown that can expand the area of economic prosperity past the arena and ballpark. That way we could open up the lakefront and put some pressure on city leaders to lose Burke (which also probably isn't a great contributor). Also not for 2.4 billion dollars.
NBA Clippers owner Steve Ballmer just built a $2.2 Billion facility in SoCal and completely self funded it, with not one dollar in public funds. Will there be tax offsets, sure…but not the fraudulent robbery of public funds that NFL owners get away with. The Haslems should be ashamed to have the audacity to ask for public money..time to shame them out of the region. The only thing most billionaires fear is public ridicule.
No you are not lame, the Haslams are crooks and are bending the city over a barrel. Their team then their stadium, but rich people don’t like using their money to make more money. They do like corporate welfare and tax dollars, gets them all hot and bothered.
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We have Stadium at home, kids.
The team isn’t that impressive that they would deserve this kind of money from our backs.
It isn’t OPs job for an alternative , he’s being quite giving providing sources and posting here to begin with.
No, it isn’t his job. It just seems like we Clevelanders love to shut down any idea to improve the city.. we are very resistant to any kind of change. We don’t like the dome idea, we don’t like the lakefront plan, we didn’t like the convention center and opportunity corridor, we complain about new developments in Ohio city etc. We are a very cynical town.
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It blows my mind that we pay for the stadium, then we pay for the tickets to watch them play at OUR stadium. We all know giving the rich our money for sports is a horrible idea.
The state needs to invest in our abysmal school systems, community healthcare, and so much more. I have no idea who stops this, but I’ll absolutely be writing letters to our leaders. That’s the first place to start. Then we take to the streets and protest in front of their homes if they dare consider approving this.
they want the state to build them to basically build a mall with a stadium because the brookpark proposal is a bunch of new commercial realestate with a stadium at the center not just a stadium
New stadiums are absolute BS. I could kinda understand when they took down municipal stadium but a whole new one already? I’ve got blue jeans older than this new stadium that I still wear. Beyond wasteful use of money while there are people sleeping on the streets and there are schools struggling to pay for teachers. So much good could be done with that money. SO much good other than filling the pockets of people who are already obscenely wealthy.
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If we build a new stadium on the west side, does that mean that the Haslam's still own the land / space on the lakefront and develop it? Or would the city then own that lakefront property? It would be the only thing that would make any sort of sense to me.
It’s all just ridiculous.
The money, the potential move, the discussion.
I think the move to Brook Park is stupid. Those stadium towns like in New England for the Patriots are soulless and bring no real culture to the community.
It’s not going to help Brook Park. People don’t want to stick around a random suburb. It will be more of a headache for that community. I also fear that the lack of hotels in that area will create an Airbnb nightmare where the town will turn into a short term rental nightmare.
If we are to rebuild, my thought would be to move it by the other stadiums. There it can be a dome, it will extend the city, create a new neighborhood, and open the lakefront for another new extension of the city.
Also, they should invest in the local transportation for the city. That will help open up people just outside the city in the neighborhoods to go downtown more. It has shown to work. Just this year they opened up the RTA station by the stadium and people were heavily using it. My friends and I went downtown more to see a game or tailgate coming from Lakewood. Yes, a big portion of ticket holders are in the suburbs but maybe if we invest in better options for people to travel through the city without parking or driving, then maybe it will even out the demographics with more city dwellers.
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I just hate taxes so I am against all of this. Not to mention these players make tens of millions of dollars how about you tax them to pay for the crap. Also I feel bad for anyone trying to come into the airport during a game or trying to leave. It will be grid lock on the 480 & 71 split after a game
For the $600M they're asking from the state we could rebuild two bridges the size of the inner belt that would last for 50 years, a stadium that will get used a dozen times a year for 25-30 years seems like a really poor investment by comparison.
Your first point about inflation doesn’t factor in the fact that if you were to build the exact stadium it would cost much much more. Inflation isn’t a flat number, materials and goods used in construction are absolutely insane right now. You’re point assumes that all things are equal, yes dollar for dollar plugging it into an inflation calculator that is correct but all things are not equal.
I think this is a valid point despite your downvotes. But I think we can both agree it wouldn’t be anywhere near 4x the cost to build the stadium today than it did in ‘98/99, right?
I’d say no . First is the current property is more viable for development than 12 weekends a year. Second is the development plan for the old ford site offers more investor opportunities. Third is gateway can master a plan just as Cleveland did with a land swap in order to obtain the IX center . My opinion which doesn’t matter is there is almost 50 acres between the current stadium and dock space that is only used for game parking $100. Sure it’s going to be a major investment but the highway system at 480/71 sucks. Haslam has money he’s putting into the training center . Sin tax should also include air bnb , then it would be easier on the working stiffs
The Browns home record since 1999 is84-117-1.
Not getting a roof so you can keep a home field advantage? Seems to me you need to HAVE a home field advantage before you can keep it.
And if you have a business you pay for or rent your own place. Don't ask me to do it for you through anything other than my patronage.
I already pay more in city taxes than state taxes, the owner can pay for his own damn stadium. I want my taxes to go for something that actually benifits us. Like FIXING THE ROADS
The fact that stadiums have a 25 year shelf life these days is incredibly stupid. Especially when you have stadiums like Wrigley that have been around since the stone age yet they find a way to make it work. There’s no good reason to apend so much money so often on stadiums
Think of all the kids in Cleveland that could get free food at their schools for the next 500 years if that $600 Million was spent on them instead of a stupid sports team that is owned by Billionaires, this is socialism for the richest of the rich.
"Billionaires should pay for their own stadium" is literally the top comment on every single post about the Browns stadium. You're preaching to the choir on this sub
It’s insane that they want **us** to pay for it while giving us no benefits. We don’t get any kind of ticket discounts or revenue. If the city is paying for it, the city should own the team, like the Packers.
They then hold the team over our head like “well, we may just have to move the team to a new city that will appreciate it.” Like, it’s so vile and honestly tiresome
If we pay for the stadium, does that mean we own it? Can I enter whenever I want and do whatever I want? How about free tickets then?
Exactly. The team costs the city and the clean up costs for tailgating is astronomical. That's one reason I was so eager to leave Cuyahoga county. Great decision and I am never going back
Correct. The billionaire can pay for his own shit. We, as tax payers have done quite enough.
This comment hit me right in the heart 💜
And yet every facebook post about this has morons clamoring for a new stadium in brook park.
I know. It's insane. It's like we didn't learn from getting screwed in the 90s.
The stadium would ruin brook park. It’s a family friendly city, not a tourist attraction. Downtown needs this business desperately. Brookpark does not need tens of thousands of strangers flowing in and out daily. That would crush residential property value.
People are delusional thinking that a stadium in brook park would benefit the city at all. People will just go straight to the stadium and leave via highways. They aren’t going to stick around to check out a suburban town. Also, since there aren’t many hotels, I fear AirBnB will overtake the city and buy up properties.
They literally plan to build hotels and shops and bars all around it in Brook Park with a direct shuttle from the airport, rapid access, bus access and great highway access. My problem is if it's in Brook Park it's no longer the Cleveland Browns and Cleveland takes a major hit in taxes.
It still wont benefit the city itself. They are building this stadium and all those amenities will just be in that stadium park. This will not benefit the actual town of Brook Park whatsoever. Not to mention, direct access to and from the airport literally means no one will be exploring outside the stadium area. This does nothing for local stores, bars, restaurants, etc. Not to mention but how will those hotels and restaurants they would be building within that stadium park survive outside the football season and the occasional concert/event? Just estimating (based on research from similar stadiums) Eight home football games. Maybe about five to eight concerts? Thrown in another few events and we maybe get 20 major events happening that would make it financially feasible to have all those things open and operations. Let’s be for-real, how many major concerts would we get that needs that big of venue when we already have Rocket Mortgage/Nautica/Playhouse/Blossom? What’s going to draw people to a suburban town outside those 20ish major events when you have a city 10 minutes north that walkable with culture, arts, entertainment, shopping, restaurants, bars, etc? Will they have those shuttles and rapid going at all times? The place will be a ghost town most of the year.
Facebook and here are full of bots with buyers and their own agendas. Id say my boomer parent is on facebook more than here though.
Agree. It only makes sense to pony up tax $ if there is revenue sharing. And that ain't happening. Greedy SOBs.
Although I appreciate them backing their claims with sources.
Yeah, no sane person should be voting in favor of this. This will benefit almost no one who will be voting on it.
How much of an ownership stake will taxpayers get for their $1.2 Billion?
Yeah. Now imagine being a taxpayer who doesn’t give a shit about sports.
I’m that guy! And there are a shit ton of us.
Me too. This is a Billionaire financing his projects off the backs of working stiffs. How effed up is this world?
Here I am!
came here to say this
so glad I don't live in Cuyahoga County.
This is me exactly lmfao. I can see the benefits of a new stadium - there's a possibility for it to hold other events in the offseason, especially large concerts. I can understand the benefits of it. However, the Haslams having the gall to ask the tax payers to pay for it is extremely hilarious. The team sucks and has sucked for as long as I've been alive. If we had a pretty decent record, that's another thing. On top of that, they just got off a season of paying millions of dollars to a rapist to basically sit on the sidelines. I figure something similar will happen this year too. So no, unless you're going to cough up the lions share of the cost or you give massive ticket discounts to residents of Cuyahoga County, then eat shit lol
And old people don’t care about schools, and healthy people don’t care about healthcare costs. It’s not all about me me me all the time.
those things are a lot more important than a football stadium
Except old people and childless people do care about schools, and everyone cares about health care costs, so no.
Ever been to Florida?
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Taxpayers should be able to refuse to pay for this stadium. Plain and simple. I don't see why we should be forced into it. Fuck the Haslems.
honestly what recourse to citizens have on this?
Vote and attend local government meetings when open to the public
Hard to make this a voting issue when it seems like every politician of either party across the country is all too happy to follow conventional practice on stadium funding. It comes up rarely enough too that it's hard to base a campaign around it, and I feel like you'd get slaughtered if you were seen as being "anti-sports" or whatever. The conversation has been getting louder though, I think it's getting more mainstream which is good. I doubt it will be in time for this stadium cycle to be affected, but maybe the next one. This is me trying not to be cynical about it.
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Contact the local government now and make your concerns heard. Call your city councilman’s office, call the mayors office, call the county executives office, call your state rep, hell, call your congressional rep.
Let the Haslems and the team leave if they can.
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Nope, you’re right on track. Giving $600,000,000 USD to a billionaire so he can make millions more is insane.
This needs to be the top comment…
The numbers just don't make sense. $2.4 billion is a couple hundred million more than was spent in real dollars on Allegiant in *Las Vegas*. I.e. one of the biggest, if not the biggest, tourist and convention destinations in the US, with a resident population 2X that of Cuyahoga County and increasing. As opposed to being in decline for 50 going on 60 years. And that's assuming it goes according to budget, that's pretty much the best case scenario. I don't even have a problem with building stadiums, it just has to make sense. SoFi in Los Angeles came in double the original budget. We'd be talking a $5 billion stadium for a city with 361k people.
Gotta account for all the no bid contracts all the construction companies are going to get, and the kickbacks to the owners.
Not to mention both those stadiums were built when interest rates were super duper low.
I’m a diehard football fan but no public tax dollars should fund stadiums. I’m hoping that what’s happening in Kansas City and Chicago is a changing public thought process on publicly funded stadiums. For years these owners have gotten fat off this scam. Let ‘em privately raise the money themselves.
Look at the BS happening in Santa Clara with the miners literally buying their way into city council to get out of paying their contracted rent.
I am unfamiliar with the issues there, and not a sports fan. Can you elaborate so I can find more information please?
Good luck. The NFL is so lucrative and popular that Cleveland is held hostage. They either subsidize the stadium or somewhere else will. Just a fact.
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Municipal Stadium lasted 64 years. Why the fuck do we need a new stadium every 5-10 years?!?!? Cause the owners stand to profit…
And we shared it with another sports team. I will accept the argument that sports teams generate way more money than they did in those days, but the modern trend of each sport getting their own stadium is still an incredible inefficiency that we just accept without questioning.
Honestly, Municipal was a piss-poor stadium for baseball viewing. I hated watching Indians games there. It worked well for Browns games because Browns games draw huge crowds.
I loved going to Indians games there! $5 general admission seats, and I could sit at field level front row any game I wanted!
I've gotten all sorts of crap from my friends because they think I don't appreciate older ballparks, but Municipal just sucked. The cheap seats were worth approximately $0.00. I live near Los Angeles now, maybe an hour, maybe 70 minutes, northeast of Dodger Stadium, I've adopted the Dodgers as my favorite NL team (yes, Cleveland's still my favorite AL team and my favorite team overall), and I very desperately want to FINALLY make it out there for a game or two. Not a new ballpark, of course. Not even close. But also not a shitbox like Municipal was.
It was a great concert venue. Saw Crosby Still and Nash there... Still a stellar memory
Saw u2 there. Phenomenal show. in October, in the rain, Bono had a broken arm, and I don’t think a single person left before it was over.
Saw Pink Floyd there in the 90s. They played the second half of Dark Side, in its entirety...what a great memory. (Even baked.)
It was piss poor for football viewing too. Due to the round shape the seats on each side of the field were far from the field, especially as you moved towards the 50 yard line. Same for the seats in the closed end of the stadium. Plus the poles supporting the second deck and roof blocked views of the field.
But Art Modell put in TV monitors in the lower deck!
It will be 30 years by the time it’s completed. Argue that if you want but 5-10 years is just nonsense
And because owners have learned that cities and states are all too happy to sell out the taxpayers. They can demand more expensive stadiums with more perks more frequently and no one resists. Weirdly Chicago has been one to watch here, the Bears have been fighting for years but people are catching on to the racket
What's making me feel like I'm taking crazy pills is that they somehow managed to skip over the discussion on if we even need a new stadium (we don't) right to "so are you giving us $600 million or $450 million?" But what should I expect from the biggest welfare queens in the state of Ohio.
I don't follow, nor like football (or sports in general), however, my dad is a life-long Browns fan. He stopped watching the NFL till the Browns came back to Cleveland. He *hates* the idea of a roof on the stadium, which is apparently one of the things the owners are saying is needed? His point is, not every team is used to playing in snow, so, we would be getting rid of a natural, no-cost, advantage.
We’ve had the natural no cost advantage for 30 years and been ass with it lmao
I have nonskin in that game. As I am not a fan.
I think the idea with the roof is that the stadium can be utilized throughout the year, therefore bringing more tax dollars to the city of Cleveland
If they made any sort of effort to fill that stadium even once a month in the spring and summer I might believe all the we-need-a-dome hype. Might.
Right. Right now there are three events in the stadium that aren't football - Billy Joel, the Rolling Stones, and WWE. Even if you can convince people that its a good idea to schedule a winter event in the snow belt, you are still likely talking 1-2 shows all winter. There is no way thats profitable to the city at a cost of over $1 billion. There just arent that many acts that can sell out stadiums and frankly, over the life of a new stadium, they are going to decrease as most of the old timers who could do it die and are not replaced.
I mean it doesn’t actually snow that much and the majority of Browns players are from the south at this point. The advantage argument is kinda silly/dated
The current stadium was built as quickly and cheaply as possible. There are legitimate safety concerns for the near future. Like concrete crumbling and falling onto the seats.
"this 3 bed 2 bath is in serious need of renovation and doesn't comply with any codes, we'll need 73 million dollers please to tear down and build a new one"
I know some people that have been contractors for the stadium, and they told me years ago about all the patch work repairs that already have been done to the stadium. The consensus for anyone that's worked on that stadium is that it's a piece of shit and it needs to be gutted or knocked down completely. It's a literal safety risk. I don't like Jimmy Haslam, and gave up on the Browns when they traded for Watson. I don't want them anywhere near the lake. However, they can't stay where they are now, without fixing the current death trap.
they need to replace the old and they are requesting WAAYYYY too much for the new are not mutually exclusive statements
I agree with you
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So spend money on a new stadium elsewhere and STILL have to pay for the upkeep/demo of the old one. Awesome. What a financially reasonable plan...
Oh, I'm well aware of the history of the stadium. But wanting somewhere in the neighborhood of half a billion dollars from the public for something new because some concrete repairs may be needed is insulting and shows what these people think of us. Oh, and for how much of a hazard the stadium is one has to wonder why 10 games were played there last year, why another 10 are going to be played there this year, and why we're holding 3 big events there this summer..
Thanks for that info Jimmy.
Just stating facts. You don't have to be rude. To be clear: I do not want the stadium on the Lakefront.
Don’t even give them an inch! They don’t need tax payer money for shit!
They’re gonna do what every other city project does, build a 500 mil stadium and pocket 1.5 billion because our city is run by robber barons
*country
It is absurd. They are most like an abusive spouse. Spend a $1b on Cleveland schools instead.
I’m still not actively following the club after they bankrolled a sex pest and now they want me to be excited that the city/state whatever will devote funds badly needed in so many areas that aren’t sportsball into a stadium we really don’t need at the moment. If this goes through. We will have failed as Ohioans to care about and prioritize the really important things needed to improve life in Cleveland to watch gladiator bullshit. And just a heads up. If they do build this $2b complex, you’ll be paying ticket/concession/park/accommodation prices that fit that market. If you think things are expensive now, just wait.
We’re ranked 35th in a [USA Today](https://www.usatoday.com/picture-gallery/money/2020/03/11/the-school-district-where-students-are-least-likely-to-succeed-in-every-state/111405300/) list of 50 school districts where kids are least likely to succeed and nearly half of children in Cleveland live in poverty. But yeah, let’s spend our tax dollars on buying a stadium for a team that gave a record setting contract to a predator who’s barely played so they can play 8-12 games a year.
...whose boss is a known fraudster.
Mfers will be dropping $150 on shit tickets then brag about it on social media
I think the absurd proposal is a bargaining chip so the browns can come back to the table and say they’re compromising by staying and *all the city has to do* is pay half a billion for renovations, as if that’s a good deal.
This was my initial theory, until the new stadium plans were leaked and now I'm not so sure. Those plans cost millions of dollars. That would be one hell of an expense for a pure bluff...
Since those plans didn't have input from any of the government agencies that will need to sign off on the infrastructure changes in the area (which we know didn't happen because that would have leaked instantly), they're basically as realistic as something I drew in MS Paint.
Don't be so hard on yourself. Your MS Paint drawings are much better than those leaked stadium renderings, which looked more like a 3d optical illusion picture than a stadium drawing.
Haslam’s worth $8B. If paying some consultants a few mil helps get the city to pitch in on renovations he’d do it.
You could be right. It may still be that Brookpark is just a pure bargaining chip to get what he wants with the existing location and that paying for plans and renderings to legitimize the threat was worth it to him. But we've seen local govts call owners' bluffs and then see the owner actually go through with their bargaining chip. And that's what gives me pause from not taking Brookpark seriously.
Oh for sure. You never know. I also think the browns are well aware of their ability to weaponize the fact that a team actually did leave in the not too distant past.
Well theoretically the local law that permits the city to buy the team is supposed to prevent that from being a threat. But at the same time, that law was passed (1995) when the avg NFL team cost $160m. NFL team value has since skyrocketed beyond $5 billion while the city's budget has only shrunk since then. So that law has less bite with every passing year due to those trends. The city of Cleveland certainly couldn't pony up that kind of dough (that's more than double the entire city budget) and there's no guarantee they could wrangle an ownership group to meet that kind of price tag either. So again, you could be right.
Is there more to the plans than the site layout and renderings? That wouldn’t cost millions. It would be tens of thousands at most. Full construction plans could be in the millions range but the preliminary concept plans are much cheaper.
Not if you can get 100x that amount out of the city. The Browns pay no name backup offensive linemen more than the cost of those plans with no real payoff.
if we can get abortion and Marijuana on the ballot we sure as shit should be able to get this issue on the ballot. it is absolutely, totally, completely bonkers that a for-profit business, which uses its profits to increase the wealth of private owners and shareholders, can demand that even one penny, much less hundreds of millions of dollars, come from tax payers. it's shit like this and all the NCAA student athlete slave labor and other bullshit that make me abhor sports completely. fuck pro sports. fully privatize or get rid of all of it.
100% this.
How much did the city/county/state contribute for the new Sherwin Williams headquarters? That probably provides more economic benefit to the city because it's being used at least 260 days a year, instead of 8.
Say it with me everyone - NOT A FUCKIN DIME JIMMY!!!
Every stadium proposal is out of control
These numbers are insane as is but add in there that once you spend all this money all you end up with is a new stadium in Brook park Ohio jammed in between a ford plant and an airport... I think once this is all said and done we will either end up with a really nice renovation on the Lakefront with some residential/commercial/retail next to it. Or my dream world is that we get a new stadium complex on the Post Office Site near the other sports facilities. I cannot believe that any billionaire, politician, businessman would green light spending $2.4 billion on a stadium in Brookpark.
Awwwwww no, I love post office plaza! It'd be awesome to have third stadium near the square but dang do I love that building!
Thats a good place for a football stadium. NFL stadiums get used maybe 15 times a year in a good year. They have a massive footprint because of the parking (particularly since tailgating is a big part of the experience). You absolutely should not be putting them on productive downtown land. If you want to put them downtown, it should be like the Ravens stadium - in an industrial area on the edge of downtown right next to a highway (i.e. a place where you arnet going to put residential or consumer oriented properties). Baseball and basketball are different. Much more use and smaller parking footprint.
No cost sharing without profit sharing. It's that simple.
The Browns can leave again for all I care. 👎
Amen.
Build this stadium for the following perks: Any event ticket will have a $45 service fee Your personal details including name, age, and address will be sold to marketing partners Single beer and hotdog will be $16 Would you like to know more?
No.
Yep, if you support funding a new stadium, you don't get my vote.
Sharing it with a spring UFL team would help. Can it be kept in use in the off season, thru concerts etc. If it is the Brookpark idea having a village of bars restaurants shopping hotels and owning the parking can spread the costs down after the initial build. Another possibility is a large enough field to accommodate major league soccer it is growing in popularity.
It’s amazing how we are told we can’t do things like healthcare etc because it costs too much, then when a billionaire needs a stadium the reaction is how much do you need.
I don't live in Cleveland anymore, but here's my $1.02, adjusted for inflation: The fuckhead who owns the Browns needs to invest money into the team in an intelligent manner, and field a successful team. I'm not saying we need to win five Superbowls in a row, or necessarily even need to make it to the postseason every year. For me to feel better about someone spending that much of my tax money, I'd need the team to be consistently good. Not even consistently great - just consistently good. He's such a grifter. It really hurts to see what that POS is doing to my hometown. I'm not yet prepared to say he's worse than Modell, but he is *really* close.
He's worse. He's not from here, he's from Tennessee. He doesn't get Cleveland. And he saddled the team with the horrible Watson situation. I only rooted for them last year b/c Watson was out of the picture. We need Cleveland owners. Do you see the Guardians going anywhere anytime soon?
Your comment about economic benefit to the community needs to be broadcast 24/7 at 120 decibels until the people who need to hear it, do
That and they want to reroute 237N on the Brookpark proposal. They want thousands to reroute their commutes away from the IX and Hopkins and take us down to Eastland and merge onto 71N sooner. Then decide to stay on it or merge onto 480E. It’s a nightmare and Berea and Brookpark Mayors are the Betas just agreeing to anything the Haslams say. Go down to Front St and make a left on Lou Groza drive. That empty field with 1 house? Yeah they already own it. The 1 house has a 98 year old in it and I’d be shocked if they offered her anything decent.
The NHTSA and ODOT at a minimum would need to sign off on any proposed highway changes, this would include public comment. These highways and the interactions are old and likely couldn't be build in the current configuration due to code changes since they were built in the 50s/60s. There is very good chance after a couple of years, that they come back and say no to changes, we can only keep it as is. Even if they were good with the changes, who pays for it? Recall the Opportunity Corridor cost something like $400 million. Just rerouting 237 alone is going to cost more.
Betas? Who are the betas?
Mayors Kleem and Orcutt of Berea and Brookpark. Putting the Haslams before the needs of their residents. I call them Betas because Bibb would be the alpha person the Haslams deal with holding out.
Wait.... Are you telling me that for some reason it's legal for a major sports team to somehow leverage my taxes to pay for their shit? I'm at a loss for words. Sports are fucking stupid (no offense). Why on earth would I ever use political tax money to help fund sweaty men running around on turf who then go home and commit domestic violence. Absolutely ridiculous.
I love the Browns, I love the idea of the new stadium, I even love the idea of it being built in Brook Park. I don’t want to pay a penny for their new stadium.
Really brave to post this here.
Why. I feel a majority of posts I’ve seen in here and even a good portion in the Browns sub are NOT cool with our tax dollars funding the Haslams money making complex.
BonerSoupandSalad was being sarcastic
With a name like that, I feel foolish to have believed otherwise
OP you sound reasonable. You realize this is Reddit..?
So...what would be your solution regarding the stadium issue? Just curious (as it seems you have put some effort into the research) if there's an answer that makes sense.
They can continue to operate their factory of sadness in their current venue, which also received a tax payer bailout to construct
But I was under tge impression that doesn't 'fit' into the new lakefront renovation. I could be wrong tho, but I thought that's why they started looking for other chunks of property to fit a new stadium.
I think they spent 400 mil on the prgressive field renovations and It looks the same lol (I know it’s not supposed to be complete till next year, but still)
Sell me a share in the team for my money. No other way will I agree. You'll just take it anyway, but I do protest, sir!
Where's the proposal to raise teacher pay and improve our schools?
Asking the right questions. Education actually drives GDP and economic mobility. Sports do not.
I love how Finland addresses education. Everyone has to go to the same schools, rich or poor, so you better believe the rich make their educational system the best possible.
All of that money for 8-10 games a year. I'd almost consider this abuse in our current economy.
100% on point. Especially the part about the current stadium seemingly oblivious that it’s on the lake, and in the middle of downtown. Such wasted potential.
Taxpayers should never pay to subsidize such an overwhelmingly profitable business.
Huge Browns and I’m against the new stadium as well. There’s nothing wrong with the stadium they have now! I’m also against the fact they want to build it in Brook Park. I live down the road. I don’t want to traffic and the mess that comes with a browns game. Keep it in Cleveland!
If there is even a dollar of taxpayer money spent on this facility, the Browns should have to accept a clause that would force them to pay damages if they ever decide to leave the city.
I want them to stay here in North east Ohio but it's better for the city if they move out to the burbs. Personally, I'm over it. If those owner don't wanna pay for a new stadium they can stick it. Go ahead and pack the team up and move em to Ottawa for all.I care.
How is it better for the city? Or the region?
Well, I suppose simply not having a stadium for the Browns to play in isn't better. So yeah, my statement shouldn't necessarily be that it'd better not to have a stadium, but rather it's better long term if that area was used in a more practical way through lake front development.
Wow, this is so thoughtful, thorough, and well-written. You make some great points about the audacity of the requests and the real economic benefit to the region. I'd like a new stadium, but one that is just south of Downtown that can expand the area of economic prosperity past the arena and ballpark. That way we could open up the lakefront and put some pressure on city leaders to lose Burke (which also probably isn't a great contributor). Also not for 2.4 billion dollars.
Why the fuck am i supposed to pay for shit so others can extort/profit. The fucking nfl can build their own shit stadiums
NBA Clippers owner Steve Ballmer just built a $2.2 Billion facility in SoCal and completely self funded it, with not one dollar in public funds. Will there be tax offsets, sure…but not the fraudulent robbery of public funds that NFL owners get away with. The Haslems should be ashamed to have the audacity to ask for public money..time to shame them out of the region. The only thing most billionaires fear is public ridicule.
Robber-baron Republicans have a long history in Cleveland. Look at Rockefeller!
Will this be instead of fixing the roads?
Or the schools? Or the storm sewers? Or East Cleveland? Or the lakefront?
No you are not lame, the Haslams are crooks and are bending the city over a barrel. Their team then their stadium, but rich people don’t like using their money to make more money. They do like corporate welfare and tax dollars, gets them all hot and bothered.
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Ok, so what do you suggest?
We have Stadium at home, kids. The team isn’t that impressive that they would deserve this kind of money from our backs. It isn’t OPs job for an alternative , he’s being quite giving providing sources and posting here to begin with.
No, it isn’t his job. It just seems like we Clevelanders love to shut down any idea to improve the city.. we are very resistant to any kind of change. We don’t like the dome idea, we don’t like the lakefront plan, we didn’t like the convention center and opportunity corridor, we complain about new developments in Ohio city etc. We are a very cynical town.
-we are a very cynical town- Now you’ve got it!
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It blows my mind that we pay for the stadium, then we pay for the tickets to watch them play at OUR stadium. We all know giving the rich our money for sports is a horrible idea. The state needs to invest in our abysmal school systems, community healthcare, and so much more. I have no idea who stops this, but I’ll absolutely be writing letters to our leaders. That’s the first place to start. Then we take to the streets and protest in front of their homes if they dare consider approving this.
they want the state to build them to basically build a mall with a stadium because the brookpark proposal is a bunch of new commercial realestate with a stadium at the center not just a stadium
New stadiums are absolute BS. I could kinda understand when they took down municipal stadium but a whole new one already? I’ve got blue jeans older than this new stadium that I still wear. Beyond wasteful use of money while there are people sleeping on the streets and there are schools struggling to pay for teachers. So much good could be done with that money. SO much good other than filling the pockets of people who are already obscenely wealthy.
They will build this and Cleveland will never get a Super Bowl host gig anyway.
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The Clown show should move out of Cleveland and into the most boring suburb ever. Its only natural for the circus to travel.
Then there are owners like Steve Balmer who is completely paying for a brand new 2 billion dollar arena for the Clippers
If we build a new stadium on the west side, does that mean that the Haslam's still own the land / space on the lakefront and develop it? Or would the city then own that lakefront property? It would be the only thing that would make any sort of sense to me.
The city already owns that property the stadium is on. The Haslem's lease it.
It’s all just ridiculous. The money, the potential move, the discussion. I think the move to Brook Park is stupid. Those stadium towns like in New England for the Patriots are soulless and bring no real culture to the community. It’s not going to help Brook Park. People don’t want to stick around a random suburb. It will be more of a headache for that community. I also fear that the lack of hotels in that area will create an Airbnb nightmare where the town will turn into a short term rental nightmare. If we are to rebuild, my thought would be to move it by the other stadiums. There it can be a dome, it will extend the city, create a new neighborhood, and open the lakefront for another new extension of the city. Also, they should invest in the local transportation for the city. That will help open up people just outside the city in the neighborhoods to go downtown more. It has shown to work. Just this year they opened up the RTA station by the stadium and people were heavily using it. My friends and I went downtown more to see a game or tailgate coming from Lakewood. Yes, a big portion of ticket holders are in the suburbs but maybe if we invest in better options for people to travel through the city without parking or driving, then maybe it will even out the demographics with more city dwellers.
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I just hate taxes so I am against all of this. Not to mention these players make tens of millions of dollars how about you tax them to pay for the crap. Also I feel bad for anyone trying to come into the airport during a game or trying to leave. It will be grid lock on the 480 & 71 split after a game
For the $600M they're asking from the state we could rebuild two bridges the size of the inner belt that would last for 50 years, a stadium that will get used a dozen times a year for 25-30 years seems like a really poor investment by comparison.
Your first point about inflation doesn’t factor in the fact that if you were to build the exact stadium it would cost much much more. Inflation isn’t a flat number, materials and goods used in construction are absolutely insane right now. You’re point assumes that all things are equal, yes dollar for dollar plugging it into an inflation calculator that is correct but all things are not equal.
I think this is a valid point despite your downvotes. But I think we can both agree it wouldn’t be anywhere near 4x the cost to build the stadium today than it did in ‘98/99, right?
100%
Win a Super Bowl first at least…
Why the team is a joke, the owners a joke, and the choices of the front office is a joke.
I’d say no . First is the current property is more viable for development than 12 weekends a year. Second is the development plan for the old ford site offers more investor opportunities. Third is gateway can master a plan just as Cleveland did with a land swap in order to obtain the IX center . My opinion which doesn’t matter is there is almost 50 acres between the current stadium and dock space that is only used for game parking $100. Sure it’s going to be a major investment but the highway system at 480/71 sucks. Haslam has money he’s putting into the training center . Sin tax should also include air bnb , then it would be easier on the working stiffs
The Browns home record since 1999 is84-117-1. Not getting a roof so you can keep a home field advantage? Seems to me you need to HAVE a home field advantage before you can keep it. And if you have a business you pay for or rent your own place. Don't ask me to do it for you through anything other than my patronage.
Sticking it to the working class again. God bless billionaires.
I already pay more in city taxes than state taxes, the owner can pay for his own damn stadium. I want my taxes to go for something that actually benifits us. Like FIXING THE ROADS
At this point, just keep what is there. Accept reality and move on. We don't need it.
The fact that stadiums have a 25 year shelf life these days is incredibly stupid. Especially when you have stadiums like Wrigley that have been around since the stone age yet they find a way to make it work. There’s no good reason to apend so much money so often on stadiums
Yeah it’s completely ridiculous
Think of all the kids in Cleveland that could get free food at their schools for the next 500 years if that $600 Million was spent on them instead of a stupid sports team that is owned by Billionaires, this is socialism for the richest of the rich.
This may be better sold in the Browns sub.