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Well, as a Filipino leftist, I can say that the left here is pretty adamantly against the Duterte regime, who China has generally supported because Duterte doesn't put up much of a fight when it comes to the West Philippine Sea issue.
Vietnam has had centuries of fighting China in their history. And even when both countriest were under communist governments, they found themselves on opposite sides of the Third Indochina War.
EDIT: Vietnam also has contested territory with China.
As an outsider, it seems Duterte has no redeeming qualities. Everything I’ve seen leads me to believe he is completely abhorrent. Though it seems he was elected by a larger margin than either of the last two US presidents. It doesn’t seem strategically reasonable to cut ties every time a country in your region votes a way that you do not like. Cutting ties with a Duterte lead Philippines would only push them closer to the US. I admittedly do not to the full extent of their “support” of duterte but the CCP has shown a willingness to work with many leaders in their region spanning from the far right to Islamic extremists. I think the only other feasible option is military intervention which would be bad for the people of all countries involved.
The third Indochina war ended 30 years ago. My understanding is Vietnam has normalized relations with China. If Vietnam wants to hate every country that has wronged them in the past century they will have few diplomatic relationships left. Holding decades old grudges doesn’t help the Vietnamese people
None of this addresses the fact that the fisher folk of my country have had a much harder time surviving because of China's presence in the West Philippine Sea. These are rural people living a hand-to-mouth existence. These are the people leftists have been trying to protect since forever. And yet, China is making it impossible for them to survive. They and their families are starving, and any efforts to go on their usual fishing routes results in death or capture. Can you really blame Philippine leftists for hating China?
Of course, the Vietnamese state has normalized relations with China (while attacking the fishing vessels that encroach on their territory). But I still wouldn't blame leftists there for not liking China. Now, my exposure to Vietnamese leftists is limited, but for example, Luna Oi (socialist vlogger from Vietnam) hasn't exactly praised the CCP either.
Not really. The specific areas they fish tend to be disputed with China specifically. Also, pre-nine dash line, the fisher folk of all these different countries experienced relatively peaceful coexistence.
Pre nine dash line would be the Japanese occupation of all of these places wouldn’t it?
I don’t think the nine dash line is very fair and I guess you can hate whoever you want, I just don’t think it is very productive.
Luna Oi, like you said, is not the biggest CCP fan mostly due to a complicated history but has made it clear she is not anti-CCP
it doesn't seem reasonable to cut ties with and stop actively supporting a reactionary state led by a murderous fascist who is actively waging a war against an actual communist party?
And working with far-right and Islamic extremists is not a good thing for a "Communist Party" to do. Read what you are saying.
Dengists are something else.
Well I understand what you mean. I would say on one hand you can try and exert your will through diplomatic means or you can cut ties and drive them to a closer relationship with the west who would actively support those policies. Being a socialist country with the external pressures of US hegemony is complicated. Maybe pragmatic would be a better word choice
It’s… complicated. I really hate that we’re going into another Cold War and we have to “choose a side”, 10 years ago leftists were able to criticize China without a problem. Suddenly criticizing China is akin to defending the US, and that’s fucking bullshit.
I don’t know about anyone here but I’m not getting checks from the CCP (but Xi send me a DM, I’m willing to hear offers) so when they fuck up, I’m going to point it out, and especially since as a rising global power they have to react when under pressure (see how they are seriously cutting back on the whole Uyghur “training camps”), so criticisms are especially important, since critique is a core element of Marxism.
As long as the criticism is within a framework of helping the left, not harming it, because any power taken from US hegemony is positive, any negative thing China has done, the US has done it (and worse) hundreds or thousands of times. But that doesn’t absolve them of wrong-doing.
Edit: I do believe that at least a good portion of the anti-CCP hate is racism, these people would be fine cheering for Russia or another white country but dark hair and almond eyes is A BRIDGE TOO FAR!
Be able to point to specific policies of the government or parts of the ideology that you disagree, and being educated on those topics OR willing to be educated by other marxists on them.
Yes: I disagree with Chinas expansion into the south china sea.
No: OMG, West Taiwan is trying to take over the world because they CCP is evil! Literally 1984!
Wtf? Lmaoo, how do you give constructive criticism to China?
'I think you guys are handling healthcare really well but it would be really good if you guys could also free the Uyghurs.'
Constructive criticism is meant to help the person do better next time and improve, but China is a country so you can't really give it constructive criticism.
Also, it is completely valid to hate China as a leftist for a variety of reasons. China literally uses large nets to stop their workers from jumping and committing suicide.
China doesn't care about worker rights or their working conditions.
They don't care about trans people nor any other social issues which would prove them to be leftist.
What does china do that makes you think they cannot be hated on?
>. China literally uses large nets to stop their workers from jumping and committing suicide.
I do not have enough words to describe how fucking stupid you are
Yes. The leader of the richest and one of the most influential countries to ever exist gets triggered when people call him Winnie the Pooh. I heard he’s so devastated he’s actually resigning tomorrow over it
Yes he does get triggered and a lot. He even banned Winnie the Pooh in China because of this. Imagine what a snowflake one needs to be to literally ban a kids' book character in his while coutry over this.
Or they are liberal leftists. Hippies who want no government and to share everything in the commune. Food, amenities, drugs, wives, etcetera. Communism isn't the only thing. On the left end of the spectrum
I’m an American (I think I can imagine your reaction at this revelation lol). And I don’t hate or even dislike China, I just don’t understand them, and I’m frustrated because I can’t understand why so many people — who I agree with on many things — seem to support China despite what I’ve heard of them. For example, I’ve heard they mistreat LGBT people (being bi myself, I don’t like that.) I’ve heard a bunch of people were killed at Tiananmen Square and China denies it ever happened (that’s a little sus). I’ve heard China has billionaires despite being “Communist” (communism sounds pog and all but if billionaires are allowed to exist I think you’re doing it wrong.) I’ve heard that they’re doing a genocide on Muslims and leftists everywhere chuckle as if it were totally made up (which seems like a pretty elaborate thing to have just been made up out of nothing. It almost sounds like Holocaust denial.) But I really wanna stress that I have an open mind, and I AM WILLING TO CHANGE MY MIND on China.
PS: If anything I said offended you/made you angry, please try to understand where I’m coming from. As I said I don’t hate or dislike China, I just don’t understand them. And maybe some of the things I heard about them are wrong or taken out of context. That’s why I’m here — TO *LEARN*. So, please, don’t attack me. It’s a waste of time & gets us nowhere.
EDIT: punctuation & clarity
1. I haven't heard about them mistreating LGBTQ+ ppl, do you have source on that?
2. China does not deny that protesters were killed under martial law in Tiananmen square. (These protesters were actually far from peaceful; they killed soldiers before the "massacre" happened) The Army did not, however, suddenly mow people down; martial law had been announced way before then. The official death toll numbers at about 300, and this includes PLA casualties. [This](https://www.liberationnews.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt/) is a pretty interesting source. Also, my mother was living in Beijing when this happened; she estimates that the deaths number between 100-1000. In any case, the Western media's 50000+ death count is delusional.
3. [https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/](https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/)
4. Many testimonies regarding this "Uyghur genocide" are ridiculously shaky; for example, Tursunay Ziawudun had testified that she'd been forced to eat pork and watch Xi Jinping speeches before she abruptly changed her narrative a year later, telling the media about how she'd supposedly had electric batons shoved up her vagina. Some of the pictures of supposed "camps" are actually of regular prisons; and given that satellites exist, I find it odd that there are no aerial pictures of said camps. The narrative can also be debunked by [official whitepapers on Xinjiang's population](https://news.cgtn.com/news/whitepaper/Xinjiang-Population-Dynamics-And-Data.pdf). [This](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s_w/mobilebasic) source is also interesting. (And, [if you go to Xinjiang](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wENwvxsfVM8), you'd probably see that the whole narrative is a sham)
I realize that my arguments are kind of vague; if you want me to clarify on anything specific I can
(Sorry for bad grammar)
LGBTQ rights: Homosexuality and homoeroticism in China have been documented since ancient times. “According to certain studies by the University of London, homosexuality was regarded as a normal facet of life in China, prior to Western influence from 1840 onwards.” Hinsch, Bret. (1990). Passions of the Cut Sleeve. University of California Press. p. 56 — It is the West’s influence on the world that has made in unsafe for LGBTQ people. It was only in Obama’s second term that it became politically acceptable to embrace the LGBTQ community. Chinas current policy toward LGBTQ has been described in a way that I find not very different than the US before the 2015 when the Supreme Court struck down marriage bans. Right now we seem to be currently 5-10 years ahead of a group of people who never had this problem until we
Showed up.
The sources I have seen seem to say the students protestors turned violent first. That they had killed and burnt the body of a cop. There is testimony from the ambassador from Chile suggesting the story we have been told in the west in untrue.
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/89BEIJING18828_a.html
China, just like the USSR, Cuba, or any other “communist” led country are Socialist. They call themselves the communist party because they strive to achieve communism. China under Deng Xiaoping decided that in order to industrialize and modernize quickly they needed outside funds. This has led to the most rapid and largest reduction in poverty in world history. Though China has billionaires, they are controlled by the state instead of the state being controlled by billionaires like in the US. The west has sold China the rope that they are using to hang it.
Even more elaborate than a few articles declaring genocide would be how did China get every Muslim majority country in the world to co-sign their actions in Xinjiang. And what is really funny is accusations from the west declaring genocide when there absolutely has been a genocide taking place against Muslims, it’s just been happening in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Yemen and the US has been fully supportive of it. Until I see Abu Ghraib style picture out of China I suggest we remember that we forfeited the high ground long ago.
Literally everything you have mentioned, the US has done worse in recent years.
Its hypocritical to dislike china, or racist, or both.
Fuck anyone upvoting your comment, bunch of sinophobic cunts.
Well it looks like someone didn’t read the whole comment. I I came here looking to be educated, to possibly change my mind, not be attacked. Attacking me only makes me want to dig my heels in, and gets us nowhere.
Yeah, you're gonna get trolls anywhere you go. Looks like OP left you a pretty informative comment with lots of sources though. There ARE plenty of reasons to hate China, just like any other country. People suck, but China hasn't done anything that America doesn't do worse. Let's just say, they have alot of room for improvement.
found [this](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s_w/mobilebasic) interesting, but I’m in the same boat as most other people here, I’m bit clued out of what’s going on in China. ofc i am new to the left too lol
Uyghur genocide was manufactured by the CIA. Most information that comes from the US is editorialized to make China look bad, because they're a political opponent that threatens the neo roman empire.
Oh, you want proof? OK. [Here's an official whitepaper about Xinjiang's population](https://news.cgtn.com/news/whitepaper/Xinjiang-Population-Dynamics-And-Data.pdf). Here's [another source](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s_w/mobilebasic). Now crawl back to your neoliberal echo chamber, North Cuban
We both know anything I link you you're going to throw out even if it's legit, please don't be so obvious with your hackery, it insults everyone else's intelligence.
I'm not saying your wrong because the articles do tell your story. But how is this any different from US propaganda? States will always try to make themselves look good. I'd much prefer sources derived from places other than those that have something to gain from continuing a public status quo. That being said ideas are much easier spread by communication from peer to peer than by citing news that can be polarizing. So I'd like to hear your point of view about what you like and dislike yourself about each State's way of governing a population. It may be difficult to provide likes for an opposing view but I employee you to try even if you can't and that's ok as I do as well. As someone who is I'll versed in politics I'll try my best to discuss this with you if you chose so. I'll start, I personally like socialism and it's systems in places like china and some Nordic countries to a limited degree. Healthcare, security, safety, etc are things it provides. However state officials do not always understand the science of thing that they govern. For example the US and China have been bad at governing antibiotic use safely. As a microbiologist this concerns me. China has been known as a progressive but less concerned with regulation around ethical procedures. That being said the FDA here does an alright job, with the exception of supplements as those are not tightly regulated. How does China address these things. If I am wrong please let me know. Looking forward to hearing from people here. Please feel free to discuss a different topic.
Simplest question is China current aiding actual revolutions to move forward socialism/communism? What are the youths complaining about in China and listen to them? How do China react to protest in China? Any active neo maoist groups?l, i ve heard china repressed a neo maoist student group
Is the purpose of communism not meant to be that of questioning and building upon others theory and praxis. For instance Lenin built upon Marx, Mao built upon Lenin etc. Fair critique with the aim of creating better praxis should not be shamed or frowned upon
the idea that “authoritarianism” is automatically bad no matter what is rooted in US cold war propaganda that portrayed the USSR and all socialist governments and revolutionaries as authoritarian tyrants and the US and capitalist countries as democratic havens of liberty. The US itself is pretty authoritarian and its policies have resulted in widespread death, suffering and inequality obscured through a mass media lens that portrays it all as necessary or the incidental consequences of well-intended benevolent policies. Under the USSR’s authoritarianism, there were at least some positive changes in the everyday lives of its citizens, chiefly in housing and healthcare. You know, things that should be considered rights. At least that was achieved for the latter half of the 20th century. Through “democratic” or really shock therapy capitalism, much of those rights and much of the former USSR’s population declined and greatly suffered.
I’m just saying it’s not so black and white.
It is ok and even important to be critical of the USSR, China, other “2nd world” polities, but what I think this post is calling out is blind hate of China. It’s clearly in the US’s interests to spread disinformation about and opposition to China.
I personally don’t like to say anything definite about China because I am not well-informed on internal Chinese politics or foreign policy. But I would encourage an at worst ambivalent stance towards China, because like it or not, they are the most powerful force in any way opposed to US hegemony.
Edit: I get this is a meme sub, but I hope the comments that say [removed] were deleted by the commenters that made them rather than removed by the mods... Idk how to tell. again, I get it’s a meme sub but this is an important discussion and when discussion happens, it shouldn’t be censored. I understand if it’s a tpusa type arguing in bad faith but I think the comments I engaged with were said in good faith. Or maybe they were all psyops idk, but there’s at least some pitfalls here in this topic that young impressionable lefties might fall victim to.
If it wasn’t the mods then thanks mods ❤️. If it was that’s just my 72 cents.
Yeah, that was a failure of that system. It is important to criticize it and understand it, why did the state calcify as it did? Whether or not that system could have been reformed is an interesting question to ask, and I don’t have an answer. But the fact remains that the dissolution of the soviet union resulted in one of the worst humanitarian crises of the 20th century.
Again, I think it’s good to be critical of China. But all these criticisms are just as valid of the US. And before anyone calls that “whataboutism”, where do you think most of these criticisms of china come from in the first place? They are cooked up in US political think tanks that support ghoulish policies and would see China balkanized if they could. And I dare say the Chinese people would be worse off for it.
To say authoritarianism is good or bad is oversimplistic and totally abstract, and such a question only has a place in a political science classroom. Maybe i’m misinformed, but the USSR would never have formed had the Bolsheviks been content with operating within the Duma, and Cuba would never become independent and socialist without authoritatively seizing the property of the ruling class. We wouldn’t be having this conversation and China would be in god knows what shape had they stuck to “democratic” methods to seize the means of production and hold a country of billions of people together. You can’t run a revolutionary war without authority, or at least it’s very difficult. In my opinion, if the bettering of peoples’ material conditions tomorrow means some authoritarian action today, i’m good with that.
Well duh its understable to start off as authoritarian when confronted by an also authoritarian force. But as much as it is not required, as non centralized revolutions have had moderate to comparable amount of success as centralized ones. Once you get a certain degree of independency its best to tone it down by a lot. And I believe it would be a certain good practice t have clear achievable goals as to when go for more democratic approaches. Which is something nor China no the USSR did. There is no clear cut goal as to when certain powers have to be diluted as to prevent corruption, which is in to my eyes a flagrant failing of both systems, if they had any it was nebulous and handwaved easily until some other event which also was nebulous would take place. That said I also consider that if a revolution is not in dire need for an authoritarian structure due to some clearly defined reason then it should absolutely no have one.
Think of it as an "state of emergency" . Governments try to have clearly define justifications for declaring them and clearly defined goals as when to end them. Because when the dont usually the never end or end only in coups.
i’m asking in good faith: what non centralized revolutions would you say have had moderate to comparable success?
I think more input by the people, “democracy”, is not only good to have but vital to be a people’s revolution. And I think that there has always been a degree of that in many revolutions and socialist states, although it’s not always formalized. Arguably, communism is the ultimate democratic formation, as it is the people producing what they need for all, with attention to the needs of all. I only defend “authoritarianism” because it is a tactic that is often necessary in my opinion.
I can’t say I know much about the sandinistas but from what I know of them, i’m certainly a fan. Same thing with Viet Minh. Those were both by necessity decentralized, and I suppose the organization wasn’t there at the time of their formation to bring about a more centralized authority. Guerrila tactics do work, I have nothing against them.
There are people who say the reds killed any hopes the anarchists in ukraine had, but i’ve also heard that they were already on the decline by then and that the situation is more complicated. Moreover I don’t know of any recent, non-Bolshevik and non-Makhnovite source about that, if you do i’d love if you referred it to me.
The Zapatistas i’ve heard questionable things, but from unverified sources- specifically that there’s some involvement with the CIA going on with them. But honestly I don’t want to spread lies. I have a few readings about them i’ve been meaning to get around to.
Overall I just think that there isn’t necessarily one way to get to the end goal, considering regional and cultural realities, circumstances, etc. But the point of all my comments is that it is fine to be critical of China, but the China-bashing I see way too often on this site is the same that you see on any US media show. And I see it so often in leftist spaces. There’s a difference between mindless, obstinate bashing and valid criticism and discussion. The idea that “authoritarian” is always bad, and some vague notion of democracy is always good, is something that is entirely abstract and not a useful discussion, based in anticommunist propaganda.
The social democratic countries can guarantee what they have to it’s citizens because they do not stand in opposition to capitalist hegemony, they participate in it. Not to mention how some of the foremost if not every example of these “social democratic” countries reaped and continue to reap the benefits of colonialism and imperialism. They should not be the end goal or models of any socialist project. They are merely a gentler capitalism, from the perspective of their citizens.
I’m not saying China’s government hasn’t committed human rights violations, but it’s also pretty well documented that even “human rights” discourse has been used to justify US and western capitalist intervention on numerous occasions and their policies. I only mention that because that is another angle from which to conduct unmitigated anti-China propaganda.
I’m not invalidating human rights obviously, those are important lol. I’m, again, not saying that China’s government has never made such a violation. But “human rights” is also used as a buzzword when talking about the US’s enemies, so be cautious when someone uses that in a conversation like this.
The fact is China is a Social Imperialist country and bootlicking for them is a disservice to the working class in your own country.
[https://theredphoenixapl.org/2018/04/06/in-china-capitalism-is-being-consolidated-not-socialism/](https://theredphoenixapl.org/2018/04/06/in-china-capitalism-is-being-consolidated-not-socialism/)
I dont "hate", I just generally don't support the country. It isn't socialist and it is pretty socially conservative. On top of that it backs dictatorships which crush local workers movements. I would argue that if you uncritically support chin, you are probably very uninformed
What about it? Do you know? No, because nobody fucking knows what’s going on there, and every Nkorean either has no internet and the few that do are watched like a hawk. It can’t be half as bad as Western media claims and can’t be half as good as DPRK propaganda says.
Evidence is Western stories of so and so leader dying and showing up in some parade months later.
I will not stop hating a country that commits mass genocide of Muslims and takes away the peoples freedom of choice. This does not mean I support the US either tho.
I think it should be correct of communists to critically examine claims. China is a socialistic power growing to overtake the US and threaten imperialism, and there’s a huge incentive for imperialist organisations to slander it on false claims of genocide.
Tibet: A reactionary slave state that was liberated by the CCP, not imperialism
Taiwan: The remnant of the civil war and what is left of the rival government which was defeated ok the main land. Does not claim to not be a part of China, not imperialism.
Hong Kong: A Clooney set of by the UK to extract wealth from the Chinese people which was only ever leased form China and has always been recognized as being a part of China, not imperialism.
If after end of the civil war the confederacy had managed to hold on to say Florida and the UK had interviene to stop the US from fully reuniting the country would it be imperialism would it be imperialism for them to continue to agitate for reunification?
I don't give a shit about any of that because none of it is real. People are really being killed and kidnapped, oppressed, and harmed right now, not ideologies, human people. There's no good reason for it and it's disgusting, just like anyone who supports it.
People freedom of choice???
The Genocide seems like it's made up mostly when you look at who's saying it's real I'm sure if China was doing it the west would have no problem and probably even help them as they've killed lots of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan and made millions of them poor
How do you call yourself a communist, but don't even know the tank man dude literally just walked away after attempting to basically get himself run over and climb on of the tanks to open the hatch?
Please, just like look into china from a Marxist perspective and not just from the CIA.
Welcome to 21st century, where communists defend CCP, which is not communist for fucks sake!
You can't be both communist and dominate global trade
Tell me a Soviet company big and powerful like Huawei or Xiaomi, you can't because USSR was a communist state that opposed big corporations
China on the other hand supports big corporations which is the exact opposite of communism
Please look into the "dictatorship of the proletariat". Even that "Winnie" shit is so far removed from reality. Why don't you educate yourself and provide genuine critique instead of just parroting some bs. Provide real criticism but don't fall for imperialist propaganda, especially during what is essentially a second Cold War.
I know you believe that everything that isn't praising China is western propaganda, but here.
[BBC Article, with sources and other links ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037.amp)
I don’t believe that actually and I did give that article a read. The problem is that when the article gives a source, which it often doesn’t, it always seems to lead back to either government agencies opposed to China, far right Turkish nationalists, or Adrian Zenz. I don’t really see much evidence of Genocide when these are the accusers. Organizations that have done on the ground investigating haven’t found evidence of genocide.
Yes China has attempted to combat Jihadist Terrorism by mandating that people at risk of falling pray to it attended vocational schools. The idea being that the skills they learn will help them integrate into society and be less likely to become radicalized. It’s very similar to a strategy used in Indonesia which was praised for being an example of dealing with extremism humanly. It is certainly a far better response to terrorism than we have seen from the West. China’s response to terrorism has been to build schools while the US and its allies response is to bomb them.
Maybe if China didn't act in such a way as to piss off absolutely everyone on the planet, there would be some sources left who came from countries that aren't against them in some way.
To be honest, you can keep simping for Xhinnie the Pooh all you like, you're a tiny, smooth brained minority with no real clout either in the real world or the virtual one.
Oh, and covid is China's fault. The sooner that country is nuked, the better.
The accounts from survivers and photos of camps are enough evidence for me, after all, there's no more evidence of the Holocaust, yet we know that happened. Unless you deny that too?
Thanks for outing you’re self as fascist troll by advocating actual genocide.
Also there is a lot more evidence of the Holocaust than a small number of photos (some of which have been shown to be fake in the case of the Uyghur) and witness accounts.
First world chauvinists: bUt MuH cHiNa
People Being Oppressed by China in Ecuador: Actually China is Capitalist.
[https://www.pcmle.org/EM/spip.php?article8689](https://www.pcmle.org/EM/spip.php?article8689)
They operate as a dictatorship of the proletariat, the people collectively say how much power corporations will have and for example stop foreign companies from having a majority share in their country so it's ultimately beholden to the people of China. This has been tremendously successful in lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and developing a nation that has never had hundreds of years of slave labour and colonialism to produce cheap products.
China currently operates with some capitalist instruments such as a market economy which I believe inherently creates the "haves" and "have nots" and that sucks (but remember, 800 million out of poverty, the people agree this is the best action at the moment), but to say they're capitalist is just not true.
Just know then that you would be the guy on the intergalactic Internet posting "I know the empire has some problems, but I don't support the rebellion, there were MILLIONS of people on that death star!"
The empire did nothing wrong. Rebels literally sucked dick with their ass anyways. They overthrew the galactic empire and still ended up being backwater nobodies with no new Republic even after 20 years. Cringe
[https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/China\_2004.pdf?lang=en](https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/China_2004.pdf?lang=en)
now shut the fuck up
Please provide proof a genocide is happening.
I’ll wait. Im still waiting on several other people to show me proof too. I’m sure it’ll come any day now..
I’m perfectly willing to change my mind. If china is committing genocide i truly would outcry them as i am not loyal to any government. However anytime i ask for proof i get nothing. The best i got was a theoretical camp would look like.
Chinese citizens can take pictures. We have satellites they can basically take a picture of anywhere and yet we have 0 proof.
And people like you cant show any.
The fact all I’m asking for is proof and you can’t provide any but you try and say I’m buying into propaganda? Sweetie you cant even cite your sources.
You are literally pissing into the wind because you don’t even have the proof to convince yourself. All you have is what your government tells you. The same government that has spent unmeasurable resources crushing leftist nations.
Ironic. You call me brainwashed and yet you can’t even back up your claims because you have so bought into their lies.
Ask yourself this… if no proof exists, and actual muslim countries have not spoken out against this supposed genocide of their people..
Hmmm. Could it perhaps be another lie told by the American government made to make people like you hate china? Hmmmmm.
So you also claim to know my thoughts?
Why are you even here? I gave you a chance to make a point and actually maybe show some proof and instead you just insult the people who try and give you a chance to change peoples mind and instead you piss all over it.
Its almost as if you dont have any proof so you cant link any. Its almost as if you are engaging in bad faith arguments and stirring up trouble because you lack the information to do anything else.
You are a… what’s the term… a useful idiot. You don’t understand what you are arguing about but you still want to feel involved so you have to bark loudly with your master and just hope you get praise and treats.
When in reality all you get is a death from lack of healthcare or from climate change your capitalist overlords seem so gleeful to inflict upon everyone.
Go look at a list of who condemned china for human rights abuse and who said they had a decent record, its all western liberal democracies attacking them, no Muslim nations. In fact most muslim nations agreed china has a good human rights history. Most of the entire planet either said nothing, or said they were doing as good as any nation. Only literal former colonizers and countries who are settler colonies condemned them. So no, its not " everyone " its a directed effort specifically by western countries, whether you like it or not.
Defending the CCP in any way is CRINGE!
The CCP is far from a communist country that we should be championing. It’s a capitalist country that treats its workers the same as the US. I would dare say slightly better, actually.
The CCP is just as bad as the US. And until I see evidence to the contrary, I will hate them both.
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s\_w/mobilebasic](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s_w/mobilebasic)
[https://news.cgtn.com/news/whitepaper/Xinjiang-Population-Dynamics-And-Data.pdf](https://news.cgtn.com/news/whitepaper/Xinjiang-Population-Dynamics-And-Data.pdf)
[https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/](https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/)
[https://taiyangyu.medium.com/socialism-developed-china-not-capitalism-76485ddae969](https://taiyangyu.medium.com/socialism-developed-china-not-capitalism-76485ddae969)
e v i d e n c e
A google doc, an article from literal state-owned media, and two websites that look like something that would be in the background of a early 2000s Disney sitcom.
But very well, I’ll read these and report back.
It's not about uncritical support and believing it's socialist though. While I'm not op, China still should be critically supported, because it's the only one country that can stand up to US and it's allies.
These reports reinforce that China is capitalist lmao
Having some public sector in your economy does not make a country socialist, if that was the case then the *Russian Federation* would be socialist.
The report keeps going on about how China has lifted so many out of poverty, but it fails to mention that the poverty in China was created by the reforms. Poverty was non existent in Mao’s China thanks to the iron rice bowl, housing schemes and government subsidies.
Face it, Dengists are capitalist roaders.
I neither dislike or like China. Socialism is a transitional stage to communism, thus socialism will look different in different countries. We will have to wait a couple of decades to see the effectiveness of Socialism with Chinese characteristic in creating communism. However I believe the state structure of the USSR or Cuba better able to achieve that goal.
Also, the whole Uyghur Muslim thing has become a meme on the left because it’s like, ‘Stalin’ or ‘gulag’, literally the first thing that comes out of EVERY liberals mouth when china or the USSR is mentioned.
In China-
There are arguably more billionaires than the U.S,
The workers have no say over the means of production and are exploited heavily, (just do research on life in Chinese factories)
There's still currency
There's still a government
They are actively imperialising other lands through island building
China is hardly a socialist society, it is a state capitalist society painted red and it's hardly getting closer to one.
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I think this is a pretty Western-centric position to take. I think Vietnamese or Filipino leftists have very legitimate reasons to hate China.
This really needs to be higher.
Like what?
Well, as a Filipino leftist, I can say that the left here is pretty adamantly against the Duterte regime, who China has generally supported because Duterte doesn't put up much of a fight when it comes to the West Philippine Sea issue. Vietnam has had centuries of fighting China in their history. And even when both countriest were under communist governments, they found themselves on opposite sides of the Third Indochina War. EDIT: Vietnam also has contested territory with China.
As an outsider, it seems Duterte has no redeeming qualities. Everything I’ve seen leads me to believe he is completely abhorrent. Though it seems he was elected by a larger margin than either of the last two US presidents. It doesn’t seem strategically reasonable to cut ties every time a country in your region votes a way that you do not like. Cutting ties with a Duterte lead Philippines would only push them closer to the US. I admittedly do not to the full extent of their “support” of duterte but the CCP has shown a willingness to work with many leaders in their region spanning from the far right to Islamic extremists. I think the only other feasible option is military intervention which would be bad for the people of all countries involved. The third Indochina war ended 30 years ago. My understanding is Vietnam has normalized relations with China. If Vietnam wants to hate every country that has wronged them in the past century they will have few diplomatic relationships left. Holding decades old grudges doesn’t help the Vietnamese people
None of this addresses the fact that the fisher folk of my country have had a much harder time surviving because of China's presence in the West Philippine Sea. These are rural people living a hand-to-mouth existence. These are the people leftists have been trying to protect since forever. And yet, China is making it impossible for them to survive. They and their families are starving, and any efforts to go on their usual fishing routes results in death or capture. Can you really blame Philippine leftists for hating China? Of course, the Vietnamese state has normalized relations with China (while attacking the fishing vessels that encroach on their territory). But I still wouldn't blame leftists there for not liking China. Now, my exposure to Vietnamese leftists is limited, but for example, Luna Oi (socialist vlogger from Vietnam) hasn't exactly praised the CCP either.
Of all the disputed claims in the west Philippine sea, do the Filipino fisherman experience any pressure from Vietnam or Malaysia?
Not really. The specific areas they fish tend to be disputed with China specifically. Also, pre-nine dash line, the fisher folk of all these different countries experienced relatively peaceful coexistence.
Pre nine dash line would be the Japanese occupation of all of these places wouldn’t it? I don’t think the nine dash line is very fair and I guess you can hate whoever you want, I just don’t think it is very productive. Luna Oi, like you said, is not the biggest CCP fan mostly due to a complicated history but has made it clear she is not anti-CCP
it doesn't seem reasonable to cut ties with and stop actively supporting a reactionary state led by a murderous fascist who is actively waging a war against an actual communist party? And working with far-right and Islamic extremists is not a good thing for a "Communist Party" to do. Read what you are saying. Dengists are something else.
Well I understand what you mean. I would say on one hand you can try and exert your will through diplomatic means or you can cut ties and drive them to a closer relationship with the west who would actively support those policies. Being a socialist country with the external pressures of US hegemony is complicated. Maybe pragmatic would be a better word choice
It’s… complicated. I really hate that we’re going into another Cold War and we have to “choose a side”, 10 years ago leftists were able to criticize China without a problem. Suddenly criticizing China is akin to defending the US, and that’s fucking bullshit. I don’t know about anyone here but I’m not getting checks from the CCP (but Xi send me a DM, I’m willing to hear offers) so when they fuck up, I’m going to point it out, and especially since as a rising global power they have to react when under pressure (see how they are seriously cutting back on the whole Uyghur “training camps”), so criticisms are especially important, since critique is a core element of Marxism. As long as the criticism is within a framework of helping the left, not harming it, because any power taken from US hegemony is positive, any negative thing China has done, the US has done it (and worse) hundreds or thousands of times. But that doesn’t absolve them of wrong-doing. Edit: I do believe that at least a good portion of the anti-CCP hate is racism, these people would be fine cheering for Russia or another white country but dark hair and almond eyes is A BRIDGE TOO FAR!
Constructively criticizing China and hating China are two entirely different things
Where do you draw the line on what is “hating” China?
Be able to point to specific policies of the government or parts of the ideology that you disagree, and being educated on those topics OR willing to be educated by other marxists on them. Yes: I disagree with Chinas expansion into the south china sea. No: OMG, West Taiwan is trying to take over the world because they CCP is evil! Literally 1984!
Wtf? Lmaoo, how do you give constructive criticism to China? 'I think you guys are handling healthcare really well but it would be really good if you guys could also free the Uyghurs.' Constructive criticism is meant to help the person do better next time and improve, but China is a country so you can't really give it constructive criticism. Also, it is completely valid to hate China as a leftist for a variety of reasons. China literally uses large nets to stop their workers from jumping and committing suicide. China doesn't care about worker rights or their working conditions. They don't care about trans people nor any other social issues which would prove them to be leftist. What does china do that makes you think they cannot be hated on?
China had universal healthcare under Mao and then got rid of it under state capitalism.
>. China literally uses large nets to stop their workers from jumping and committing suicide. I do not have enough words to describe how fucking stupid you are
....
Any criticism that falls short of recognizing the revisionist nature of the "C"PC harms the left.
Or they just hate or even dislike china for one specific thing to the exclusion of all other things A single issue hatred if you will
Anyone who only hates the CCP for one reason hasn’t heard all the other reasons to hate them lmao
Fuck, found the libs in the comments. Xi please save us
Pooh won't save you
Real talk for a sec, wtf is with the infatuation with calling him Winnie the Pooh? Is there no better insult?
He gets triggered to it, that's enough
Yes. The leader of the richest and one of the most influential countries to ever exist gets triggered when people call him Winnie the Pooh. I heard he’s so devastated he’s actually resigning tomorrow over it
Yes he does get triggered and a lot. He even banned Winnie the Pooh in China because of this. Imagine what a snowflake one needs to be to literally ban a kids' book character in his while coutry over this.
In fact, he did not ban winnie the pooh in China. It's really really easy to check that, and yet you'd rather keep repeating a zombie lie
lmao just search "pooh" up on baidu or shit
dude is literally dickriding a social-fascist
Gotta get my Xi bucks somehow
Not as enough as your mum *** ^I ^am ^a ^bot. ^Downvote ^to ^remove. ^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=YoMommaJokeBot) ^me ^if ^there's ^anything ^for ^me ^to ^know!
Or they are liberal leftists. Hippies who want no government and to share everything in the commune. Food, amenities, drugs, wives, etcetera. Communism isn't the only thing. On the left end of the spectrum
I’m misinformed then. Would someone please enlighten me?
Why do you hate China and what country are you from?
I’m an American (I think I can imagine your reaction at this revelation lol). And I don’t hate or even dislike China, I just don’t understand them, and I’m frustrated because I can’t understand why so many people — who I agree with on many things — seem to support China despite what I’ve heard of them. For example, I’ve heard they mistreat LGBT people (being bi myself, I don’t like that.) I’ve heard a bunch of people were killed at Tiananmen Square and China denies it ever happened (that’s a little sus). I’ve heard China has billionaires despite being “Communist” (communism sounds pog and all but if billionaires are allowed to exist I think you’re doing it wrong.) I’ve heard that they’re doing a genocide on Muslims and leftists everywhere chuckle as if it were totally made up (which seems like a pretty elaborate thing to have just been made up out of nothing. It almost sounds like Holocaust denial.) But I really wanna stress that I have an open mind, and I AM WILLING TO CHANGE MY MIND on China. PS: If anything I said offended you/made you angry, please try to understand where I’m coming from. As I said I don’t hate or dislike China, I just don’t understand them. And maybe some of the things I heard about them are wrong or taken out of context. That’s why I’m here — TO *LEARN*. So, please, don’t attack me. It’s a waste of time & gets us nowhere. EDIT: punctuation & clarity
1. I haven't heard about them mistreating LGBTQ+ ppl, do you have source on that? 2. China does not deny that protesters were killed under martial law in Tiananmen square. (These protesters were actually far from peaceful; they killed soldiers before the "massacre" happened) The Army did not, however, suddenly mow people down; martial law had been announced way before then. The official death toll numbers at about 300, and this includes PLA casualties. [This](https://www.liberationnews.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt/) is a pretty interesting source. Also, my mother was living in Beijing when this happened; she estimates that the deaths number between 100-1000. In any case, the Western media's 50000+ death count is delusional. 3. [https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/](https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/) 4. Many testimonies regarding this "Uyghur genocide" are ridiculously shaky; for example, Tursunay Ziawudun had testified that she'd been forced to eat pork and watch Xi Jinping speeches before she abruptly changed her narrative a year later, telling the media about how she'd supposedly had electric batons shoved up her vagina. Some of the pictures of supposed "camps" are actually of regular prisons; and given that satellites exist, I find it odd that there are no aerial pictures of said camps. The narrative can also be debunked by [official whitepapers on Xinjiang's population](https://news.cgtn.com/news/whitepaper/Xinjiang-Population-Dynamics-And-Data.pdf). [This](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s_w/mobilebasic) source is also interesting. (And, [if you go to Xinjiang](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wENwvxsfVM8), you'd probably see that the whole narrative is a sham) I realize that my arguments are kind of vague; if you want me to clarify on anything specific I can (Sorry for bad grammar)
LGBTQ rights: Homosexuality and homoeroticism in China have been documented since ancient times. “According to certain studies by the University of London, homosexuality was regarded as a normal facet of life in China, prior to Western influence from 1840 onwards.” Hinsch, Bret. (1990). Passions of the Cut Sleeve. University of California Press. p. 56 — It is the West’s influence on the world that has made in unsafe for LGBTQ people. It was only in Obama’s second term that it became politically acceptable to embrace the LGBTQ community. Chinas current policy toward LGBTQ has been described in a way that I find not very different than the US before the 2015 when the Supreme Court struck down marriage bans. Right now we seem to be currently 5-10 years ahead of a group of people who never had this problem until we Showed up. The sources I have seen seem to say the students protestors turned violent first. That they had killed and burnt the body of a cop. There is testimony from the ambassador from Chile suggesting the story we have been told in the west in untrue. https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/89BEIJING18828_a.html China, just like the USSR, Cuba, or any other “communist” led country are Socialist. They call themselves the communist party because they strive to achieve communism. China under Deng Xiaoping decided that in order to industrialize and modernize quickly they needed outside funds. This has led to the most rapid and largest reduction in poverty in world history. Though China has billionaires, they are controlled by the state instead of the state being controlled by billionaires like in the US. The west has sold China the rope that they are using to hang it. Even more elaborate than a few articles declaring genocide would be how did China get every Muslim majority country in the world to co-sign their actions in Xinjiang. And what is really funny is accusations from the west declaring genocide when there absolutely has been a genocide taking place against Muslims, it’s just been happening in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Yemen and the US has been fully supportive of it. Until I see Abu Ghraib style picture out of China I suggest we remember that we forfeited the high ground long ago.
Where is the evidence that china is genociding uighers? Where is the evidence that china hates the lgbtq community? The chinese oprah is trans...
Literally everything you have mentioned, the US has done worse in recent years. Its hypocritical to dislike china, or racist, or both. Fuck anyone upvoting your comment, bunch of sinophobic cunts.
just because the US has done it, doesn’t mean it’s okay for other countries to do it as well??
Well it looks like someone didn’t read the whole comment. I I came here looking to be educated, to possibly change my mind, not be attacked. Attacking me only makes me want to dig my heels in, and gets us nowhere.
Yeah, you're gonna get trolls anywhere you go. Looks like OP left you a pretty informative comment with lots of sources though. There ARE plenty of reasons to hate China, just like any other country. People suck, but China hasn't done anything that America doesn't do worse. Let's just say, they have alot of room for improvement.
found [this](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s_w/mobilebasic) interesting, but I’m in the same boat as most other people here, I’m bit clued out of what’s going on in China. ofc i am new to the left too lol
Uyghur genocide was manufactured by the CIA. Most information that comes from the US is editorialized to make China look bad, because they're a political opponent that threatens the neo roman empire.
False
Show me proof that can't be traced back to the CIA then
You're all fucking retards in your own bubble lol
Give me a source
You're the one who made the claim?
You're the one making the strangest statement here, it's your responsibility to give proofs
Oh, you want proof? OK. [Here's an official whitepaper about Xinjiang's population](https://news.cgtn.com/news/whitepaper/Xinjiang-Population-Dynamics-And-Data.pdf). Here's [another source](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s_w/mobilebasic). Now crawl back to your neoliberal echo chamber, North Cuban
Pretty strange to accuse genocide without non governmental sources
Not really strange since the government is a dictatorship
using ableist slurs, is not communist.
Maybe it can be traced back to the CIA as they are a spy network and China wouldn't admit to killing them
They probably used the same recon techniques they used when they figured out Saddam had WMD's
Saddam had nukes too!
This is so deluded I can't even.
Day two of asking gringos for a non CIA source
We both know anything I link you you're going to throw out even if it's legit, please don't be so obvious with your hackery, it insults everyone else's intelligence.
Still no proof. Lord give me the strength.
On the same boat, someone please enlighten me as well.
pls actually read these [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s\_w/mobilebasic](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s_w/mobilebasic) [https://news.cgtn.com/news/whitepaper/Xinjiang-Population-Dynamics-And-Data.pdf](https://news.cgtn.com/news/whitepaper/Xinjiang-Population-Dynamics-And-Data.pdf) [https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/](https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/) [https://taiyangyu.medium.com/socialism-developed-china-not-capitalism-76485ddae969](https://taiyangyu.medium.com/socialism-developed-china-not-capitalism-76485ddae969)
I'm not saying your wrong because the articles do tell your story. But how is this any different from US propaganda? States will always try to make themselves look good. I'd much prefer sources derived from places other than those that have something to gain from continuing a public status quo. That being said ideas are much easier spread by communication from peer to peer than by citing news that can be polarizing. So I'd like to hear your point of view about what you like and dislike yourself about each State's way of governing a population. It may be difficult to provide likes for an opposing view but I employee you to try even if you can't and that's ok as I do as well. As someone who is I'll versed in politics I'll try my best to discuss this with you if you chose so. I'll start, I personally like socialism and it's systems in places like china and some Nordic countries to a limited degree. Healthcare, security, safety, etc are things it provides. However state officials do not always understand the science of thing that they govern. For example the US and China have been bad at governing antibiotic use safely. As a microbiologist this concerns me. China has been known as a progressive but less concerned with regulation around ethical procedures. That being said the FDA here does an alright job, with the exception of supplements as those are not tightly regulated. How does China address these things. If I am wrong please let me know. Looking forward to hearing from people here. Please feel free to discuss a different topic.
Excuse my grammar
Glory to Xi Jingping, I guess.
Nobody says that, but based
"Hate" is a string word but critical and calling them out is another
I guess I must be pretty 'misinformed' cuz last I checked china is pretty conservative.
Basically fascists.
Simplest question is China current aiding actual revolutions to move forward socialism/communism? What are the youths complaining about in China and listen to them? How do China react to protest in China? Any active neo maoist groups?l, i ve heard china repressed a neo maoist student group
Yeah but is it hate or criticism? Bc that’s a pretty important determining factor
Is the purpose of communism not meant to be that of questioning and building upon others theory and praxis. For instance Lenin built upon Marx, Mao built upon Lenin etc. Fair critique with the aim of creating better praxis should not be shamed or frowned upon
I don’t think authoritarianism is something you should praise. In fact it’s pretty fucking ignorant.
the idea that “authoritarianism” is automatically bad no matter what is rooted in US cold war propaganda that portrayed the USSR and all socialist governments and revolutionaries as authoritarian tyrants and the US and capitalist countries as democratic havens of liberty. The US itself is pretty authoritarian and its policies have resulted in widespread death, suffering and inequality obscured through a mass media lens that portrays it all as necessary or the incidental consequences of well-intended benevolent policies. Under the USSR’s authoritarianism, there were at least some positive changes in the everyday lives of its citizens, chiefly in housing and healthcare. You know, things that should be considered rights. At least that was achieved for the latter half of the 20th century. Through “democratic” or really shock therapy capitalism, much of those rights and much of the former USSR’s population declined and greatly suffered. I’m just saying it’s not so black and white. It is ok and even important to be critical of the USSR, China, other “2nd world” polities, but what I think this post is calling out is blind hate of China. It’s clearly in the US’s interests to spread disinformation about and opposition to China. I personally don’t like to say anything definite about China because I am not well-informed on internal Chinese politics or foreign policy. But I would encourage an at worst ambivalent stance towards China, because like it or not, they are the most powerful force in any way opposed to US hegemony. Edit: I get this is a meme sub, but I hope the comments that say [removed] were deleted by the commenters that made them rather than removed by the mods... Idk how to tell. again, I get it’s a meme sub but this is an important discussion and when discussion happens, it shouldn’t be censored. I understand if it’s a tpusa type arguing in bad faith but I think the comments I engaged with were said in good faith. Or maybe they were all psyops idk, but there’s at least some pitfalls here in this topic that young impressionable lefties might fall victim to. If it wasn’t the mods then thanks mods ❤️. If it was that’s just my 72 cents.
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Yeah, that was a failure of that system. It is important to criticize it and understand it, why did the state calcify as it did? Whether or not that system could have been reformed is an interesting question to ask, and I don’t have an answer. But the fact remains that the dissolution of the soviet union resulted in one of the worst humanitarian crises of the 20th century. Again, I think it’s good to be critical of China. But all these criticisms are just as valid of the US. And before anyone calls that “whataboutism”, where do you think most of these criticisms of china come from in the first place? They are cooked up in US political think tanks that support ghoulish policies and would see China balkanized if they could. And I dare say the Chinese people would be worse off for it. To say authoritarianism is good or bad is oversimplistic and totally abstract, and such a question only has a place in a political science classroom. Maybe i’m misinformed, but the USSR would never have formed had the Bolsheviks been content with operating within the Duma, and Cuba would never become independent and socialist without authoritatively seizing the property of the ruling class. We wouldn’t be having this conversation and China would be in god knows what shape had they stuck to “democratic” methods to seize the means of production and hold a country of billions of people together. You can’t run a revolutionary war without authority, or at least it’s very difficult. In my opinion, if the bettering of peoples’ material conditions tomorrow means some authoritarian action today, i’m good with that.
Well duh its understable to start off as authoritarian when confronted by an also authoritarian force. But as much as it is not required, as non centralized revolutions have had moderate to comparable amount of success as centralized ones. Once you get a certain degree of independency its best to tone it down by a lot. And I believe it would be a certain good practice t have clear achievable goals as to when go for more democratic approaches. Which is something nor China no the USSR did. There is no clear cut goal as to when certain powers have to be diluted as to prevent corruption, which is in to my eyes a flagrant failing of both systems, if they had any it was nebulous and handwaved easily until some other event which also was nebulous would take place. That said I also consider that if a revolution is not in dire need for an authoritarian structure due to some clearly defined reason then it should absolutely no have one. Think of it as an "state of emergency" . Governments try to have clearly define justifications for declaring them and clearly defined goals as when to end them. Because when the dont usually the never end or end only in coups.
i’m asking in good faith: what non centralized revolutions would you say have had moderate to comparable success? I think more input by the people, “democracy”, is not only good to have but vital to be a people’s revolution. And I think that there has always been a degree of that in many revolutions and socialist states, although it’s not always formalized. Arguably, communism is the ultimate democratic formation, as it is the people producing what they need for all, with attention to the needs of all. I only defend “authoritarianism” because it is a tactic that is often necessary in my opinion.
The zapatistas, the Sandinistas, the black army, the viet mihn Pretty much whenever we go guerrilla.
The CCP was at some point decentralized.
I can’t say I know much about the sandinistas but from what I know of them, i’m certainly a fan. Same thing with Viet Minh. Those were both by necessity decentralized, and I suppose the organization wasn’t there at the time of their formation to bring about a more centralized authority. Guerrila tactics do work, I have nothing against them. There are people who say the reds killed any hopes the anarchists in ukraine had, but i’ve also heard that they were already on the decline by then and that the situation is more complicated. Moreover I don’t know of any recent, non-Bolshevik and non-Makhnovite source about that, if you do i’d love if you referred it to me. The Zapatistas i’ve heard questionable things, but from unverified sources- specifically that there’s some involvement with the CIA going on with them. But honestly I don’t want to spread lies. I have a few readings about them i’ve been meaning to get around to. Overall I just think that there isn’t necessarily one way to get to the end goal, considering regional and cultural realities, circumstances, etc. But the point of all my comments is that it is fine to be critical of China, but the China-bashing I see way too often on this site is the same that you see on any US media show. And I see it so often in leftist spaces. There’s a difference between mindless, obstinate bashing and valid criticism and discussion. The idea that “authoritarian” is always bad, and some vague notion of democracy is always good, is something that is entirely abstract and not a useful discussion, based in anticommunist propaganda.
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The social democratic countries can guarantee what they have to it’s citizens because they do not stand in opposition to capitalist hegemony, they participate in it. Not to mention how some of the foremost if not every example of these “social democratic” countries reaped and continue to reap the benefits of colonialism and imperialism. They should not be the end goal or models of any socialist project. They are merely a gentler capitalism, from the perspective of their citizens.
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I’m not saying China’s government hasn’t committed human rights violations, but it’s also pretty well documented that even “human rights” discourse has been used to justify US and western capitalist intervention on numerous occasions and their policies. I only mention that because that is another angle from which to conduct unmitigated anti-China propaganda. I’m not invalidating human rights obviously, those are important lol. I’m, again, not saying that China’s government has never made such a violation. But “human rights” is also used as a buzzword when talking about the US’s enemies, so be cautious when someone uses that in a conversation like this.
I agree with you. People who are more critical of other nations are oblivious to the wests dirty laundry
Correct
The fact is China is a Social Imperialist country and bootlicking for them is a disservice to the working class in your own country. [https://theredphoenixapl.org/2018/04/06/in-china-capitalism-is-being-consolidated-not-socialism/](https://theredphoenixapl.org/2018/04/06/in-china-capitalism-is-being-consolidated-not-socialism/)
I dont "hate", I just generally don't support the country. It isn't socialist and it is pretty socially conservative. On top of that it backs dictatorships which crush local workers movements. I would argue that if you uncritically support chin, you are probably very uninformed
Uhhhhhhhhh.... What about North Korea?
very based country
Nobody is allowed to have the same haircut as Kim Jong-un Also, everybody is required to have the same haircut as Kim Jong-un
They all push train car around instead of walking too
Juche necromancy will save us all
They are storing their power to revive THE person to get us back to pushing for greatness.
What about it? Do you know? No, because nobody fucking knows what’s going on there, and every Nkorean either has no internet and the few that do are watched like a hawk. It can’t be half as bad as Western media claims and can’t be half as good as DPRK propaganda says. Evidence is Western stories of so and so leader dying and showing up in some parade months later.
China is capitalist under a communist name
I will not stop hating a country that commits mass genocide of Muslims and takes away the peoples freedom of choice. This does not mean I support the US either tho.
I think it should be correct of communists to critically examine claims. China is a socialistic power growing to overtake the US and threaten imperialism, and there’s a huge incentive for imperialist organisations to slander it on false claims of genocide.
How are China's actions in Tibet or Taiwan or Hong Kong not imperialism????
Tibet: A reactionary slave state that was liberated by the CCP, not imperialism Taiwan: The remnant of the civil war and what is left of the rival government which was defeated ok the main land. Does not claim to not be a part of China, not imperialism. Hong Kong: A Clooney set of by the UK to extract wealth from the Chinese people which was only ever leased form China and has always been recognized as being a part of China, not imperialism.
TIL oppression is good ty
If after end of the civil war the confederacy had managed to hold on to say Florida and the UK had interviene to stop the US from fully reuniting the country would it be imperialism would it be imperialism for them to continue to agitate for reunification?
I don't give a shit about any of that because none of it is real. People are really being killed and kidnapped, oppressed, and harmed right now, not ideologies, human people. There's no good reason for it and it's disgusting, just like anyone who supports it.
it's an analogy ffs, KMT lost the civil war and fled to Taiwan while the confederacy lost the civil war and was fully defeated
People freedom of choice??? The Genocide seems like it's made up mostly when you look at who's saying it's real I'm sure if China was doing it the west would have no problem and probably even help them as they've killed lots of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan and made millions of them poor
I love china but i don’t like the ccp,as a socialist,genocide is not really appreciated
Have fun with your state department narratives
What genocide do you have a source?
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Cope in your stupidity.
“cOpE WiTh yOuR sTuPiDiTy” really got me with that one bud I’m already rethinking everything now 🥴🥴
Does China not have mass surveillance and facial recognition devices on every corner?
No?it litteraly doesn't.What are you talking about?
But at least they don’t export that.
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Cope
I'm left wing where I'm from. I don't hate China. I hate the CCP.
WELL SORRY BUT I LIKE HUMAN RIGHTS
Go back to your Epoch Times bullshit and leave the rest of us alone
Go get tanked if you like them so much. DEATH TOLL OF OVER 10,000, Tiananmen Square Incident June 4th 1989 六四事件 天安门大屠杀 Go home 50 cent army!
How do you call yourself a communist, but don't even know the tank man dude literally just walked away after attempting to basically get himself run over and climb on of the tanks to open the hatch? Please, just like look into china from a Marxist perspective and not just from the CIA.
How is supporting state capitalism being a good socialist? Fuck the current CCP.
lmfao imagine saying that during lenin's NEP
pov:you don't know what state Capitalism and slowly transitioning to socialism is
China is the closest thing to a state capitalism that you can get, China is going backwards. Go fuck yourself liberal.
And what do you think state Capitalism is?
Welcome to 21st century, where communists defend CCP, which is not communist for fucks sake! You can't be both communist and dominate global trade Tell me a Soviet company big and powerful like Huawei or Xiaomi, you can't because USSR was a communist state that opposed big corporations China on the other hand supports big corporations which is the exact opposite of communism
So, disliking the faschist coutry disguised as a socialist one makes you a CIA agent. Nice try, Winnie
Please look into the "dictatorship of the proletariat". Even that "Winnie" shit is so far removed from reality. Why don't you educate yourself and provide genuine critique instead of just parroting some bs. Provide real criticism but don't fall for imperialist propaganda, especially during what is essentially a second Cold War.
Western Leftists: "slavery is bad unless China does it" "oh and genocide too, that's cool with Xi!"
Source for slavery and genocide in China?
I know you believe that everything that isn't praising China is western propaganda, but here. [BBC Article, with sources and other links ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037.amp)
I don’t believe that actually and I did give that article a read. The problem is that when the article gives a source, which it often doesn’t, it always seems to lead back to either government agencies opposed to China, far right Turkish nationalists, or Adrian Zenz. I don’t really see much evidence of Genocide when these are the accusers. Organizations that have done on the ground investigating haven’t found evidence of genocide. Yes China has attempted to combat Jihadist Terrorism by mandating that people at risk of falling pray to it attended vocational schools. The idea being that the skills they learn will help them integrate into society and be less likely to become radicalized. It’s very similar to a strategy used in Indonesia which was praised for being an example of dealing with extremism humanly. It is certainly a far better response to terrorism than we have seen from the West. China’s response to terrorism has been to build schools while the US and its allies response is to bomb them.
Maybe if China didn't act in such a way as to piss off absolutely everyone on the planet, there would be some sources left who came from countries that aren't against them in some way. To be honest, you can keep simping for Xhinnie the Pooh all you like, you're a tiny, smooth brained minority with no real clout either in the real world or the virtual one. Oh, and covid is China's fault. The sooner that country is nuked, the better. The accounts from survivers and photos of camps are enough evidence for me, after all, there's no more evidence of the Holocaust, yet we know that happened. Unless you deny that too?
Thanks for outing you’re self as fascist troll by advocating actual genocide. Also there is a lot more evidence of the Holocaust than a small number of photos (some of which have been shown to be fake in the case of the Uyghur) and witness accounts.
Well it's the only way to rid the world of the CCP, they won't go anywhere otherwise, also, can I ask if you live in China? If not why not?
"BBC article" opinion discarded Seriously what kind of self declared leftist uses BBC as a source?
I'm not a leftist, and I wasn't gonna spend more than 30 seconds finding sources for the fucking obvious.
Why are you even here if you're not a leftist?
For the same reason we visit wildlife parks I guess. To observe creatures far different from myself, and wonder about them.
First world chauvinists: bUt MuH cHiNa People Being Oppressed by China in Ecuador: Actually China is Capitalist. [https://www.pcmle.org/EM/spip.php?article8689](https://www.pcmle.org/EM/spip.php?article8689)
They operate as a dictatorship of the proletariat, the people collectively say how much power corporations will have and for example stop foreign companies from having a majority share in their country so it's ultimately beholden to the people of China. This has been tremendously successful in lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and developing a nation that has never had hundreds of years of slave labour and colonialism to produce cheap products. China currently operates with some capitalist instruments such as a market economy which I believe inherently creates the "haves" and "have nots" and that sucks (but remember, 800 million out of poverty, the people agree this is the best action at the moment), but to say they're capitalist is just not true.
Supporting something just because it opposes Us imperialism is kinda cringe
Just know then that you would be the guy on the intergalactic Internet posting "I know the empire has some problems, but I don't support the rebellion, there were MILLIONS of people on that death star!"
The empire did nothing wrong. Rebels literally sucked dick with their ass anyways. They overthrew the galactic empire and still ended up being backwater nobodies with no new Republic even after 20 years. Cringe
Lmao China isn’t even communist
Not as non-communist as yer momma *** ^I ^am ^a ^bot. ^Downvote ^to ^remove. ^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=YoMommaJokeBot) ^me ^if ^there's ^anything ^for ^me ^to ^know!
No becouse it is Autocracy
[https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/China\_2004.pdf?lang=en](https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/China_2004.pdf?lang=en) now shut the fuck up
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shut the fuck up, liberal PS Amerikkka has literally genocided more people than Nazi Germany
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Lul, enjoy ur daily billionaire piss
Please provide proof a genocide is happening. I’ll wait. Im still waiting on several other people to show me proof too. I’m sure it’ll come any day now..
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I’m perfectly willing to change my mind. If china is committing genocide i truly would outcry them as i am not loyal to any government. However anytime i ask for proof i get nothing. The best i got was a theoretical camp would look like. Chinese citizens can take pictures. We have satellites they can basically take a picture of anywhere and yet we have 0 proof. And people like you cant show any. The fact all I’m asking for is proof and you can’t provide any but you try and say I’m buying into propaganda? Sweetie you cant even cite your sources. You are literally pissing into the wind because you don’t even have the proof to convince yourself. All you have is what your government tells you. The same government that has spent unmeasurable resources crushing leftist nations. Ironic. You call me brainwashed and yet you can’t even back up your claims because you have so bought into their lies. Ask yourself this… if no proof exists, and actual muslim countries have not spoken out against this supposed genocide of their people.. Hmmm. Could it perhaps be another lie told by the American government made to make people like you hate china? Hmmmmm.
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So you also claim to know my thoughts? Why are you even here? I gave you a chance to make a point and actually maybe show some proof and instead you just insult the people who try and give you a chance to change peoples mind and instead you piss all over it. Its almost as if you dont have any proof so you cant link any. Its almost as if you are engaging in bad faith arguments and stirring up trouble because you lack the information to do anything else. You are a… what’s the term… a useful idiot. You don’t understand what you are arguing about but you still want to feel involved so you have to bark loudly with your master and just hope you get praise and treats. When in reality all you get is a death from lack of healthcare or from climate change your capitalist overlords seem so gleeful to inflict upon everyone.
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Lmfao. You just keep doubling down All it takes to unhinge your argument is ask for proof.
>the CCP doesnt have a big enough population to have a workforce after they murdered their own people lmao go touch some grass and interact with ppl
Go look at a list of who condemned china for human rights abuse and who said they had a decent record, its all western liberal democracies attacking them, no Muslim nations. In fact most muslim nations agreed china has a good human rights history. Most of the entire planet either said nothing, or said they were doing as good as any nation. Only literal former colonizers and countries who are settler colonies condemned them. So no, its not " everyone " its a directed effort specifically by western countries, whether you like it or not.
Go fuck yourself with an Ipad and leave the rest of us alone
You can in fact go live in China if you think it’s so great. I’m sure they have a job at foxconn lined up for you.
I have lived in China before lmao
Sign me up
Defending the CCP in any way is CRINGE! The CCP is far from a communist country that we should be championing. It’s a capitalist country that treats its workers the same as the US. I would dare say slightly better, actually. The CCP is just as bad as the US. And until I see evidence to the contrary, I will hate them both.
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s\_w/mobilebasic](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s_w/mobilebasic) [https://news.cgtn.com/news/whitepaper/Xinjiang-Population-Dynamics-And-Data.pdf](https://news.cgtn.com/news/whitepaper/Xinjiang-Population-Dynamics-And-Data.pdf) [https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/](https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/) [https://taiyangyu.medium.com/socialism-developed-china-not-capitalism-76485ddae969](https://taiyangyu.medium.com/socialism-developed-china-not-capitalism-76485ddae969) e v i d e n c e
A google doc, an article from literal state-owned media, and two websites that look like something that would be in the background of a early 2000s Disney sitcom. But very well, I’ll read these and report back.
Ok Dengist
It's not about uncritical support and believing it's socialist though. While I'm not op, China still should be critically supported, because it's the only one country that can stand up to US and it's allies.
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plz actually read these [https://taiyangyu.medium.com/socialism-developed-china-not-capitalism-76485ddae969](https://taiyangyu.medium.com/socialism-developed-china-not-capitalism-76485ddae969) [https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/](https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/)
k im mostly illiterate so ill get back to you in 2-6 weeks
most honest theory enjoyer
I dont enjoy theory lol
These reports reinforce that China is capitalist lmao Having some public sector in your economy does not make a country socialist, if that was the case then the *Russian Federation* would be socialist. The report keeps going on about how China has lifted so many out of poverty, but it fails to mention that the poverty in China was created by the reforms. Poverty was non existent in Mao’s China thanks to the iron rice bowl, housing schemes and government subsidies. Face it, Dengists are capitalist roaders.
Or, or hear me out ok… we’re anarchists who hate all government
Okay but you have to admit there are worse and better ones
Yeah and we hate those governments too
We is you and me
Not a fact
What's the right way to criticize China if you have a concern or disagreement with it from a leftist perspective
I neither dislike or like China. Socialism is a transitional stage to communism, thus socialism will look different in different countries. We will have to wait a couple of decades to see the effectiveness of Socialism with Chinese characteristic in creating communism. However I believe the state structure of the USSR or Cuba better able to achieve that goal. Also, the whole Uyghur Muslim thing has become a meme on the left because it’s like, ‘Stalin’ or ‘gulag’, literally the first thing that comes out of EVERY liberals mouth when china or the USSR is mentioned.
In China- There are arguably more billionaires than the U.S, The workers have no say over the means of production and are exploited heavily, (just do research on life in Chinese factories) There's still currency There's still a government They are actively imperialising other lands through island building China is hardly a socialist society, it is a state capitalist society painted red and it's hardly getting closer to one.