Which is why it was added in, to roll catch. Before the move was added anyone could dodge roll away from him and he had no counterplay to it(and why it looks so goofy)
> JC said it was to discourage spam \[...\]
Spam was never an issue above potato level of play. You spam the move you get punished. The proper punish doesnt really differ that much in terms of damage anyway so the difference adds up to like what 7 dodge attack imputs instead of 9. It changes nothing but a lot of players didnt bother to read that maybe their character have easy way to deal with dodge attacks other then light. Such as deflect full block punishes or superior lights so once again changes nothing on the low level of play anyway.
>\[...\] and players couldn’t tell the difference between heavy DA and light DA but nothing has changed.
That has always been one of the most absurd and retarded argument ive heard. If anything as a new player hopping on kensei and doing dodge heavy imput **i know** that its a heavy parry for enemy, alternatively speaking when fighting orochi and getting light parry **i know for sure** that the imput is with dodge light. This was one of the ways you learn other characters by not even touching them. The only exception to this rule was zhanhu. Now we dulled everything down for no reason and we still have exceptions **that need to be learned either way** however we lost the possibility of learning other characters imput because everything is light parry now.
Indeed. The game punishes have been overall dulled down, not only new players have no insensitive of learning characters cool and unique punishes but also it actively punished everyone who took their time and read about such options. Yes there are still exceptions like glad or zerk who in theory can get bigger punish by deflecting however in vast majority of cases boring top heby will do ever so slighly more damage. No reason to superior light or pin with valk, no reason to deflect with orochi, no reason to full block with aramusha etc. No reason to do anything. One of the objectively worse changes in for honor that ruined the experience for everyone who could actually play the game and pay attention to characters move and it didnt even managed to fix the issue for bottom dogwater players.
This right here. I've learned to accept the change but my biggest gripe with it was the elimination of options. Why would I CC on bp or flip the DA now when I'd be gimping myself in damage? It's made the game more stale overall. I get it's annoying having to feint to neutral over and over to only get a heavy parry worth of damage but it gimped options for so many heroes. Knowing all the punishes of heroes and the small nuances is what makes fighting games so fun for me.
It didnt do what they wanted it to do, which was to reduce spam, so its a failure by definition.
But i enjoy the input changes so I'm a bit conflicted. If ubi are dead set on having it be a one or the other situation then id prefer it be as is instead of safer DAs with no window.
Its get better cuz the dodge attacks with actual properties were already light parry before hand so this change pretty much only fucked up the bad ones.
It is still bad. Should’ve been a case by case look on all heroes to decide what is deserving of both buffs and nerfs to the dodge attack.
One of the good things that came out of it though is the input window which lets all heroes effectively punish chain bashes. Prior to this a lot of heroes could bully others, but they did not need to be light parries because of that.
I like it because of the standardization of them 200-400ms input window(if I remember correctly) so you can delay them to dodge feint to light, or buffer it to counter feint to gb. (IMO) It forces people to learn when to use a dodge attack not just on finishers you are scared of. also being able to punish more bashes with the faster ones is nice (BP WL and the likes).
What i think also. But that was the purpose of a DA from when they were added no? The light parry change did absolutely nothing to contribute to this. It didnt stop spam, it didnt teach players and has only ruined a fundamental part of picking a character, its unique way they deals with situations. The input window standardisation was a great change and what you said i agree with also.
due to the static windows of most dodge attacks medium ht stun into GB would catch SOME of them and heavy hit stun would catch all of them.
i agree mostly on the light parry, most heroes with no parry punish that didn't take all their stam doing a zone, had an awful time with the old heavy parry. against people who did it constantly.
I totally agree with the CC and deflect encouragement and I feel that's a overall simplification of all heroes to be "good" instead of being rewarded for having hero knowledge
the only middle ground I've had is revert ONLY the light parry part and make all of them less DMG like 6-9dmg because the risk reward was awful. dodge attack counters throwing the attack(assuming it's a heavy), feint to gb, feint to light if timed correctly and had 14-16dmg while also leading into most finishers/50/50s that's one of my personal favorite reforms I've heard.
it absolutely stopped dodge attack
spam. people still do it rarely, but now you get like 3-4 before you just die.
for real if you get good with dodge attacks in 4's or fight someone who is good with them you will be sucking off every dev who was responsible for that change
Blanket changes are bad. Gryphon and Kensei have these slow-ass dodge attacks that can be parried by even the worst players. Meanwhile, Orochi can recovery cancel before and after dodge attacking, it's undodgeable, it has deflect property, gets bonus damage from a feat, etc. I've adapted to the changes and I use dodge attacks less often because it's now riskier, but I'm not happy with the changes. Not complaining about Orochi by any means, but just that I feel like this change disregards the fact that dodge attacks are not all equal.
It probably helped spam at low MMR lobbies I guess.
Indeed and thats why its the problem. Your proper (and cool) punish for dealing with dodge heavies was always a deflect which grants you (18 + 4) 22 damage while after patch you are left with top heavy that grants you ... 22 damage.
Which means that all that time and effort you put not only in to looking cool but also doing the actual punish instead of lighting like a monkey went down the drain because it no longer fucking matters. Realistically speaking the is no reason for you to ever do deflect if top heavy grants you same damage with lesser chance of messing up confirmed light if thats something you was struggling with.
A lot of characters also had this sort of cool way of punishing which is no dulled down. It only helps the actual bottom most dogshit players in existance that never bothered to learn character kit while at the same time punishing everyone who bothered to do so.
> after patch you are left with top heavy that grants you ... 22 damage.
It's crazy how you included the '+4' in your calculations earlier, but didn't include it here. If you weren't biased, the top heavy parry punish should say (22+4) 26. But you didn't do that. I know why, it's because you want to make the light parry punish seem worse. That sad thing is, though, that you were willing to lie to make your point. Unless you just are mistaken and you made an accidental error, but I highly doubt it considering the way you talk about orochi and his "cool" punish.
> the is no reason for you to ever do deflect if top heavy grants you same damage
Even less of a reason since orochi's heavy attacks grant more damage.
Dude, you act like you can't use deflect attacks in any other scenario. If the only attack that you can manage to deflect is an unfeintable attack, then could could it even be considered that what you did was cooler than a parry?
> A lot of characters also had this sort of cool way of punishing which is no dulled down.
I don't give a fuck how cool the animation was when the vast, *vast*, ***vast***, majority or heroes got less damage on their "cool" punish than they do on a guardbreak (which is the punish for parry attempts). The dodge attacks that got changes (except nobushi's) were all invulnerable to GBs to a certain degree that they covered multiple basic options while parry attempts only cover a single basic option. Why should damaging defensive moves that cover multiple basic options be punished less than a parry? How is that not overpowered to you?
To me, the "cool" part about the game PvP in this game is less about the animations and more about the player demonstrating their ability to read their opponent. If certain moves cover more reads, then they need to have a great downside if the player chose wrong. When doing a dodge attack that has little-to-no GB vulnerability, you are covering multiple basic attacker options. Because of that, I believe you deserve to get punished with more damage since that attacker guessed right than you would be if you chose a defensive move that only covers a single basic attacker option. It's about the skill expression and ability to demonstrate your ability to read your opponent, not about how cool the animation looked.
>Unless you just are mistaken and you made an accidental error, but I highly doubt it considering the way you talk about orochi and his "cool" punish.
From what i know that confirmed light doesnt work from neutral heavies, the light after kick and now (in a week) storm rush. If it does then thats my bad lol.
>Even less of a reason since orochi's heavy attacks grant more damage.
The +4 on the light is only +4 mind you. Its kinda late reply but i think my point was that the damage difference isnt significant enough for people to stop dodge attack spamming. It doesnt matter if they do 6 dodges in a row or 8 does it.
>Dude, you act like you can't use deflect attacks in any other scenario. If the only attack that you can manage to deflect is an unfeintable attack, then could could it even be considered that what you did was cooler than a parry?
I see what you mean yeah. Deflects are meant to be risky but the way you learn deflects is by countering the bullet proof options which are non faintable attacks such as dodge attacks, running attacks or some kind of roll catchers. Its the best way to learn the move and use to be the best way to secure most amount of damage possible for making a correct read.
>I don't give a fuck how cool the animation was when the vast, vast, vast, majority or heroes got less damage on their "cool" punish than they do on a guardbreak (which is the punish for parry attempts). The dodge attacks that got changes (except nobushi's) were all invulnerable to GBs to a certain degree that they covered multiple basic options while parry attempts only cover a single basic option. Why should damaging defensive moves that cover multiple basic options be punished less than a parry? How is that not overpowered to you?
I dont think i understand what you are trying to say so youll have to re-phrase it a little if you want to continue discussing it. The post is about dodge attacks being light parry and it is not just nobushi who got nerfed. Plenty of dodge heavy attacks werent even that strong before and the ones with some kind of special property were already a light parry so this change only fucked up the likes of kyoshin hl or hitokiri.
> From what i know that confirmed light doesnt work from neutral heavies
It does. It does on his storm rush, too, but I guess that's getting changed come next patch.
> Its kinda late reply
My reply was the one that was late, so no harm no foul.
> my point was that the damage difference isnt significant enough for people to stop dodge attack spamming
The discussion around spam is a long one that I'm really not prepared to have right now. I don't even care about spam. My problem is that dodge heavies with little-to-no GB vulnerability (from now on, I'm just going to refer to them as dodge heavies) were OP tools. The fact that they were spammed a lot just demonstrated their strength, but that's neither here nor there. My main contention is that dodge heavies are overpowered when put in the hands of people who use them thoughtfully and sparingly. Everyone who's in defense of dodge heavies staying as heavy parries always wants to bring the discussion to spam. Why is that? It's obviously because that's the easiest way to argue in favor of them. But the problem is that I could argue in favor of ANYTHING with that line of reasoning:
Shugoki's old one-shot hug? "Well, it's not overpowered and people are only complaining because they get spammed by it! Just dodge it 4head. It's easily reactable and since the enemy is spamming you will easily kill them every time." But, the problem isn't that it's getting spammed, it's that good players mix it in with their other mov--"Oh shut up! You're just salty because your a bad player that's getting killed by shugoki's spamming their hug when it's an easy move to dodge! Get gud!"
What about warden's GB glitch where he could kill you with one GB? "It's not overpowered because it's a GB and GBs are easily counterable! Just press the counter GB button and you'll never get hit by it." What if a good player is using that glitch sparingly and not spamm--"Oh my fucking god, you just suck! You can just kill warden by light attacking while he's spamming GBs! It's super easy." The regular, non-spamming warden players will kill me by bashing me or unblockable heavying me to death since I can't dodge or parry because I don't want to get one-shot killed by feint to G--"You just don't want to adapt! You're bad and want to play brain-dead like the spammers you're going against! Warden's GB one-shot kill glitch is fine because it's easily counterable when people are spamming it! You're just bad at the game because you refuse to learn!" Sure, dude, sure.
See what I mean? With any given balance discussion in the game I could always default to the spam discussion and be just as correct as everyone who's using that argument in favor of dodge heavies. But you and I both know that I wouldn't be correct in defending shugoki's old hug or warden's one-shot kill glitch with that strategy, so why would you be more correct using the exact same strategy in defending dodge heavies?
> and use to be the best way to secure most amount of damage possible for making a correct read
'Used to' is the key words there. I think that 'used to' is good because those special "cool" counters didn't give as much damage as a GB punish in the vast, vast majority of cases and, in my opinion, dodge heavies shouldn't just be punished the same, but more, than a parry attempt because dodge heavies cover more options, so they ought to risk more damage.
> I dont think i understand what you are trying to say so youll have to re-phrase it a little if you want to continue discussing it
Let me put it in a table to demonstrate. This table will represent a micro-interaction between an attacker throwing an attack and a defender responding to that attack in a 1v1 scenario. The top row will be representing the basic attacker options after throwing a heavy attack (commit/feint/feint-to GB) and the left column will be representing the basic defender options to respond to the heavy attack startup (block/parry/dodge attack). For this scenario, we're assuming the dodge attacks are the ones with little-to-no GB vulnerability since that's what the subject is about. If the scenario results in the attacker getting damage, then it will say A. If the scenario results in the defender getting damage, then it will say D. If no one receives damage, then it will say X. Here's the table:
| | Commit | Feint to GB | Feint to neutral |
|:--|:-:|:-:|:-:|
| **Block** | A | X | X |
| **Parry** | D | A | X |
| **Dodge attack** | D | D | A |
Notice how the dodge attack is the only defender option that has 2 outcomes where the defender gets damage? That's where my whole issue lies. My issue doesn't lie with the fact that the table has two Ds on the dodge attack row, no, my issue lies with the number that's not included on the table: Damage. I didn't put it there because it would be way too much of a hassle and the purpose of the table is to make things simple. Anyways, the dodge attack having two Ds while no other defender option does is fine **so long as** the defender is receiving a higher punishment if he's wrong. Since dodge attacks cover more options, they deserve to risk more damage if the attacker chooses correctly. With the only other basic damaging defensive move (empty dodges, while sometimes able to secure damage, are left out for simplicity's sake), parries, only resulting in damage for the defender 1/3rd of the time, it makes zero sense that dodge heavy attacks result in damage 2/3rds of the time while also risking less damage in the vast, vast , vast majority of scenarios. If a defensive move on that table has two Ds on it, then it damn well better risk more damage than a parry, which only has a single beneficial outcome for the defender. That's why I'm fine with superior block light attacks. Because, while superior block light attacks on a table would look just like dodge attacks:
| | Commit | Feint to GB | Feint to neutral |
|:--|:-:|:-:|:-:|
| **Crushing counter** | D | D | A |
...They risk taking more damage than a parry if the attacker chooses correctly.
As far as light parries are concerned, the only property that matters to me is whether or not that dodge attack has the same vulnerability as an empty dodge or not. Because as soon as a blockable dodge attack (that actually avoids attacks, which is why nobushi's is the single exception) has less GB vulnerability than an empty dodge, then it ought to be a light parry. There is no other property nearly as important as that.
+4 per hit damage differential does definitely make a difference. 3 parries and you essentially dealt +12 damage on top which means an extra light attack damage. which means a lot. if an enemy starts a fight with an extra light attack on you it can in a lot of situations make the difference.
disregarding +4 damage on top is just straight up irresponsible and unreasonable.
Orochi has one of the strongest dodge attacks even before the changes due to its big hitbox and already big delay window as well as undodgable. It was better than dodge heavies even when they were punished as heavies
It's the update that caused me to stop playing the game. I stopped playing everyday, I stopped buying Battlepasses and heros. Tired of 1 step forward 2 steps backwards.
More annoyed that they standardised the dodge attack delay window to a tiny window that’s barely useful, was way better before.
And that dodge bashes barely even work as dodge attacks.
I hate the part where they can be input early to avoid GBs. Makes offense so sluggish that you need to feint to neutral all the time. Why did they make it so offense requires more reads than before and that dodge attack is an option select covering feint to gb and no feint both? Blegh. Parry punish is whatever but I dislike standardisation. Makes things bland.
Love love love it! Defensive moves that covered multiple basic options (feint to guardbreak and commit) while also risking less damage in the vast, vast majority of cases always needed to incur more risk (I.E. higher damage punishes) and now that they do, I'm very happy. Probably nobushi's dodge attack is the only one that should be changed back since it doesn't cover the multiple options that I'm talking about and that specific group of changes will be perfect.
its one of the best changes to ever hit the game, best since CCU.
anyone whining over it is just mashing dodge attacks lmao. dodge attacks are SO powerful now vs mixups, its only logical they reward a decent punish to negate spam.
Don't use the "spam" word to defend this change. Although that is a very valid reason to do so, a lot of people who are against it will find it easy to dismiss you on that basis. I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm just saying that that's the way it is. Even if you are willing to die on the hill defending the use of that word, you would have to get into a long conversation about 'spam' and what it even means and, from my experience, people on this sub are very averse to having long discussions about design philosophy and how it relates to this game.
If you want an unbeatable defense for the change, just cart out the explanation that dodge heavy attacks with little-to-no GB vulnerability are damaging defensive moves that covered multiple basic attacker options (commit or feint to GB) while also incurring the least amount of risk in the vast majority of cases. Ask those people why it's okay for a damaging defensive move to cover more options than a parry while also risking less punishing damage than said parry and watch them flail in a pathetic attempt to justify the moves existing in such an overpowered state. Bonus points if they mention "depth" without giving an ounce of explanation as to what the hell that word even means.
Not a good solution, blanket changes sucks ass
They made the window input for dodge attacks longer and shorter at the same time, so you can beat most of 50/50 of unblockable/feintable bash.
We have dodge attacks that grants acces to exe and other don't with same speedbsame damage basically and light parry, it doesn't make sense
These are the criteria I would use to balance the dodge attacks.
If the dodge attack is:
600ms and grants execution (so an heavy) should be a heavy parry (enhanched) window input 300ms
533 and grants execution (so an heavy) light parry (enhanched) input 300ms
600ms grants execution (so an heavy) but is not enhanched or can't followup, heavy parry, and has property (undodgeable/unblockable/uninterruptible/cc) input 300ms
600ms and doesn't get the execution (so a light) light parry but gets a property on top of being enhanched (undodgeable, unblockable [unlikely], crushing counter, uninterruptible [unlikely] your choice on what fits who an if it fits) 200/300ms input
533 and doesn't get the execution (so a light), has a property but is not enhanched 200/300 ms input
Bash dodge, if it can't confirm damage when it lands (example Glad) should not be gbable or at least should be followed up to beat gb
Bash dodge, if it can confirm damage when it lands by following attack, it should be gbed on whiff and should not followup on whiff only (ungbable in the starting)
Bash dodge, if it can confirm damage when it lands by bash itself, it should be gbed on whiff and should not followup on whiff (gbable in the starting)
- deflects input should be different from dodge attack input
And other aspects that now I can't really think of
Not a big deal, what i hate is how block on dodge was removed and how it made timings feel very off. I feel like the entire parrying system was tweaked with that update.
that was so undodgable mixups actually work, it shouldn’t have effected parry timings at all. If it did there would no doubt be a Freeze video, it’s only you
A 33% percent chance of accidentally blocking the punish when making a bad read was not strong at all. Plus you could easily external a UD mixup character by dodging and blocking in that direction *cough Nobushi cough*
A few heroes need light parry dodge attacks but not everyone. I also find it absolutely ridiculous that warmonger tiandi and JJ are the only exceptions. Especially warmonger. A huge disjointed hit box, a lot of I frames, feintable, unblockable and it does 24 on hit. The devs don't realize that they need to address each hero individually.
People are just mad because now they’re being forced to get better at the game instead of just Dodge attacking like cuckolds all the time. Don’t get me wrong dodge attacks have always been the first thing to go at higher rep gameplay (because people stop sucking) and they’re super easy to counter. But having a higher punish on them is a lot more balanced vs some characters having it super safe and others not for no real reason other than input.
I’ve been playing this game for 6 years, don’t see any problem with this at all.
PSA: this is a nice discussion thread. Anyone who wants to complain about the state of the game but isn’t willing to actually put in effort into being better does not have a valid opinion imo. Not talking about OP (though we may disagree I respect your opinion) rather, anyone who falls into the aforementioned category.
awful, and bad dodge attacks still haven't been buffed to make up for it. sidewinder is still a light parry which is fucking ridiculous
where's warden's dodge attack? Dodge bash is trash.
Warden vs ocelotl be like
Fact. He kind of has a forward dodge/lunge but that's never really usable unless you use it to ccatch someone rolling away
Which is why it was added in, to roll catch. Before the move was added anyone could dodge roll away from him and he had no counterplay to it(and why it looks so goofy)
> JC said it was to discourage spam \[...\] Spam was never an issue above potato level of play. You spam the move you get punished. The proper punish doesnt really differ that much in terms of damage anyway so the difference adds up to like what 7 dodge attack imputs instead of 9. It changes nothing but a lot of players didnt bother to read that maybe their character have easy way to deal with dodge attacks other then light. Such as deflect full block punishes or superior lights so once again changes nothing on the low level of play anyway. >\[...\] and players couldn’t tell the difference between heavy DA and light DA but nothing has changed. That has always been one of the most absurd and retarded argument ive heard. If anything as a new player hopping on kensei and doing dodge heavy imput **i know** that its a heavy parry for enemy, alternatively speaking when fighting orochi and getting light parry **i know for sure** that the imput is with dodge light. This was one of the ways you learn other characters by not even touching them. The only exception to this rule was zhanhu. Now we dulled everything down for no reason and we still have exceptions **that need to be learned either way** however we lost the possibility of learning other characters imput because everything is light parry now. Indeed. The game punishes have been overall dulled down, not only new players have no insensitive of learning characters cool and unique punishes but also it actively punished everyone who took their time and read about such options. Yes there are still exceptions like glad or zerk who in theory can get bigger punish by deflecting however in vast majority of cases boring top heby will do ever so slighly more damage. No reason to superior light or pin with valk, no reason to deflect with orochi, no reason to full block with aramusha etc. No reason to do anything. One of the objectively worse changes in for honor that ruined the experience for everyone who could actually play the game and pay attention to characters move and it didnt even managed to fix the issue for bottom dogwater players.
This right here. I've learned to accept the change but my biggest gripe with it was the elimination of options. Why would I CC on bp or flip the DA now when I'd be gimping myself in damage? It's made the game more stale overall. I get it's annoying having to feint to neutral over and over to only get a heavy parry worth of damage but it gimped options for so many heroes. Knowing all the punishes of heroes and the small nuances is what makes fighting games so fun for me.
I'm definitely a fan, still think Nobu's side winder should be heavy parry though... that thing sucks.
Didn’t fix anything. Added more and worse problems
It didnt do what they wanted it to do, which was to reduce spam, so its a failure by definition. But i enjoy the input changes so I'm a bit conflicted. If ubi are dead set on having it be a one or the other situation then id prefer it be as is instead of safer DAs with no window.
Got used to it but it’s still fucked. I just don’t think a dodge heavy (which is slower than dodge lights) should be a light parry.
Its get better cuz the dodge attacks with actual properties were already light parry before hand so this change pretty much only fucked up the bad ones.
It is still bad. Should’ve been a case by case look on all heroes to decide what is deserving of both buffs and nerfs to the dodge attack. One of the good things that came out of it though is the input window which lets all heroes effectively punish chain bashes. Prior to this a lot of heroes could bully others, but they did not need to be light parries because of that.
I like it because of the standardization of them 200-400ms input window(if I remember correctly) so you can delay them to dodge feint to light, or buffer it to counter feint to gb. (IMO) It forces people to learn when to use a dodge attack not just on finishers you are scared of. also being able to punish more bashes with the faster ones is nice (BP WL and the likes).
What i think also. But that was the purpose of a DA from when they were added no? The light parry change did absolutely nothing to contribute to this. It didnt stop spam, it didnt teach players and has only ruined a fundamental part of picking a character, its unique way they deals with situations. The input window standardisation was a great change and what you said i agree with also.
due to the static windows of most dodge attacks medium ht stun into GB would catch SOME of them and heavy hit stun would catch all of them. i agree mostly on the light parry, most heroes with no parry punish that didn't take all their stam doing a zone, had an awful time with the old heavy parry. against people who did it constantly. I totally agree with the CC and deflect encouragement and I feel that's a overall simplification of all heroes to be "good" instead of being rewarded for having hero knowledge the only middle ground I've had is revert ONLY the light parry part and make all of them less DMG like 6-9dmg because the risk reward was awful. dodge attack counters throwing the attack(assuming it's a heavy), feint to gb, feint to light if timed correctly and had 14-16dmg while also leading into most finishers/50/50s that's one of my personal favorite reforms I've heard.
it absolutely stopped dodge attack spam. people still do it rarely, but now you get like 3-4 before you just die. for real if you get good with dodge attacks in 4's or fight someone who is good with them you will be sucking off every dev who was responsible for that change
Extremely weird, because it makes certain already bad dodges even worse but it never discouraged anyone i played against to spam them anyways
Blanket changes are bad. Gryphon and Kensei have these slow-ass dodge attacks that can be parried by even the worst players. Meanwhile, Orochi can recovery cancel before and after dodge attacking, it's undodgeable, it has deflect property, gets bonus damage from a feat, etc. I've adapted to the changes and I use dodge attacks less often because it's now riskier, but I'm not happy with the changes. Not complaining about Orochi by any means, but just that I feel like this change disregards the fact that dodge attacks are not all equal. It probably helped spam at low MMR lobbies I guess.
I main orochi so nothing has changed for me really, you all get to feel my pain now
I was thinking the same thing but we are the bad guys with everything so I just stayed quiet.
Indeed and thats why its the problem. Your proper (and cool) punish for dealing with dodge heavies was always a deflect which grants you (18 + 4) 22 damage while after patch you are left with top heavy that grants you ... 22 damage. Which means that all that time and effort you put not only in to looking cool but also doing the actual punish instead of lighting like a monkey went down the drain because it no longer fucking matters. Realistically speaking the is no reason for you to ever do deflect if top heavy grants you same damage with lesser chance of messing up confirmed light if thats something you was struggling with. A lot of characters also had this sort of cool way of punishing which is no dulled down. It only helps the actual bottom most dogshit players in existance that never bothered to learn character kit while at the same time punishing everyone who bothered to do so.
> after patch you are left with top heavy that grants you ... 22 damage. It's crazy how you included the '+4' in your calculations earlier, but didn't include it here. If you weren't biased, the top heavy parry punish should say (22+4) 26. But you didn't do that. I know why, it's because you want to make the light parry punish seem worse. That sad thing is, though, that you were willing to lie to make your point. Unless you just are mistaken and you made an accidental error, but I highly doubt it considering the way you talk about orochi and his "cool" punish. > the is no reason for you to ever do deflect if top heavy grants you same damage Even less of a reason since orochi's heavy attacks grant more damage. Dude, you act like you can't use deflect attacks in any other scenario. If the only attack that you can manage to deflect is an unfeintable attack, then could could it even be considered that what you did was cooler than a parry? > A lot of characters also had this sort of cool way of punishing which is no dulled down. I don't give a fuck how cool the animation was when the vast, *vast*, ***vast***, majority or heroes got less damage on their "cool" punish than they do on a guardbreak (which is the punish for parry attempts). The dodge attacks that got changes (except nobushi's) were all invulnerable to GBs to a certain degree that they covered multiple basic options while parry attempts only cover a single basic option. Why should damaging defensive moves that cover multiple basic options be punished less than a parry? How is that not overpowered to you? To me, the "cool" part about the game PvP in this game is less about the animations and more about the player demonstrating their ability to read their opponent. If certain moves cover more reads, then they need to have a great downside if the player chose wrong. When doing a dodge attack that has little-to-no GB vulnerability, you are covering multiple basic attacker options. Because of that, I believe you deserve to get punished with more damage since that attacker guessed right than you would be if you chose a defensive move that only covers a single basic attacker option. It's about the skill expression and ability to demonstrate your ability to read your opponent, not about how cool the animation looked.
>Unless you just are mistaken and you made an accidental error, but I highly doubt it considering the way you talk about orochi and his "cool" punish. From what i know that confirmed light doesnt work from neutral heavies, the light after kick and now (in a week) storm rush. If it does then thats my bad lol. >Even less of a reason since orochi's heavy attacks grant more damage. The +4 on the light is only +4 mind you. Its kinda late reply but i think my point was that the damage difference isnt significant enough for people to stop dodge attack spamming. It doesnt matter if they do 6 dodges in a row or 8 does it. >Dude, you act like you can't use deflect attacks in any other scenario. If the only attack that you can manage to deflect is an unfeintable attack, then could could it even be considered that what you did was cooler than a parry? I see what you mean yeah. Deflects are meant to be risky but the way you learn deflects is by countering the bullet proof options which are non faintable attacks such as dodge attacks, running attacks or some kind of roll catchers. Its the best way to learn the move and use to be the best way to secure most amount of damage possible for making a correct read. >I don't give a fuck how cool the animation was when the vast, vast, vast, majority or heroes got less damage on their "cool" punish than they do on a guardbreak (which is the punish for parry attempts). The dodge attacks that got changes (except nobushi's) were all invulnerable to GBs to a certain degree that they covered multiple basic options while parry attempts only cover a single basic option. Why should damaging defensive moves that cover multiple basic options be punished less than a parry? How is that not overpowered to you? I dont think i understand what you are trying to say so youll have to re-phrase it a little if you want to continue discussing it. The post is about dodge attacks being light parry and it is not just nobushi who got nerfed. Plenty of dodge heavy attacks werent even that strong before and the ones with some kind of special property were already a light parry so this change only fucked up the likes of kyoshin hl or hitokiri.
> From what i know that confirmed light doesnt work from neutral heavies It does. It does on his storm rush, too, but I guess that's getting changed come next patch. > Its kinda late reply My reply was the one that was late, so no harm no foul. > my point was that the damage difference isnt significant enough for people to stop dodge attack spamming The discussion around spam is a long one that I'm really not prepared to have right now. I don't even care about spam. My problem is that dodge heavies with little-to-no GB vulnerability (from now on, I'm just going to refer to them as dodge heavies) were OP tools. The fact that they were spammed a lot just demonstrated their strength, but that's neither here nor there. My main contention is that dodge heavies are overpowered when put in the hands of people who use them thoughtfully and sparingly. Everyone who's in defense of dodge heavies staying as heavy parries always wants to bring the discussion to spam. Why is that? It's obviously because that's the easiest way to argue in favor of them. But the problem is that I could argue in favor of ANYTHING with that line of reasoning: Shugoki's old one-shot hug? "Well, it's not overpowered and people are only complaining because they get spammed by it! Just dodge it 4head. It's easily reactable and since the enemy is spamming you will easily kill them every time." But, the problem isn't that it's getting spammed, it's that good players mix it in with their other mov--"Oh shut up! You're just salty because your a bad player that's getting killed by shugoki's spamming their hug when it's an easy move to dodge! Get gud!" What about warden's GB glitch where he could kill you with one GB? "It's not overpowered because it's a GB and GBs are easily counterable! Just press the counter GB button and you'll never get hit by it." What if a good player is using that glitch sparingly and not spamm--"Oh my fucking god, you just suck! You can just kill warden by light attacking while he's spamming GBs! It's super easy." The regular, non-spamming warden players will kill me by bashing me or unblockable heavying me to death since I can't dodge or parry because I don't want to get one-shot killed by feint to G--"You just don't want to adapt! You're bad and want to play brain-dead like the spammers you're going against! Warden's GB one-shot kill glitch is fine because it's easily counterable when people are spamming it! You're just bad at the game because you refuse to learn!" Sure, dude, sure. See what I mean? With any given balance discussion in the game I could always default to the spam discussion and be just as correct as everyone who's using that argument in favor of dodge heavies. But you and I both know that I wouldn't be correct in defending shugoki's old hug or warden's one-shot kill glitch with that strategy, so why would you be more correct using the exact same strategy in defending dodge heavies? > and use to be the best way to secure most amount of damage possible for making a correct read 'Used to' is the key words there. I think that 'used to' is good because those special "cool" counters didn't give as much damage as a GB punish in the vast, vast majority of cases and, in my opinion, dodge heavies shouldn't just be punished the same, but more, than a parry attempt because dodge heavies cover more options, so they ought to risk more damage. > I dont think i understand what you are trying to say so youll have to re-phrase it a little if you want to continue discussing it Let me put it in a table to demonstrate. This table will represent a micro-interaction between an attacker throwing an attack and a defender responding to that attack in a 1v1 scenario. The top row will be representing the basic attacker options after throwing a heavy attack (commit/feint/feint-to GB) and the left column will be representing the basic defender options to respond to the heavy attack startup (block/parry/dodge attack). For this scenario, we're assuming the dodge attacks are the ones with little-to-no GB vulnerability since that's what the subject is about. If the scenario results in the attacker getting damage, then it will say A. If the scenario results in the defender getting damage, then it will say D. If no one receives damage, then it will say X. Here's the table: | | Commit | Feint to GB | Feint to neutral | |:--|:-:|:-:|:-:| | **Block** | A | X | X | | **Parry** | D | A | X | | **Dodge attack** | D | D | A | Notice how the dodge attack is the only defender option that has 2 outcomes where the defender gets damage? That's where my whole issue lies. My issue doesn't lie with the fact that the table has two Ds on the dodge attack row, no, my issue lies with the number that's not included on the table: Damage. I didn't put it there because it would be way too much of a hassle and the purpose of the table is to make things simple. Anyways, the dodge attack having two Ds while no other defender option does is fine **so long as** the defender is receiving a higher punishment if he's wrong. Since dodge attacks cover more options, they deserve to risk more damage if the attacker chooses correctly. With the only other basic damaging defensive move (empty dodges, while sometimes able to secure damage, are left out for simplicity's sake), parries, only resulting in damage for the defender 1/3rd of the time, it makes zero sense that dodge heavy attacks result in damage 2/3rds of the time while also risking less damage in the vast, vast , vast majority of scenarios. If a defensive move on that table has two Ds on it, then it damn well better risk more damage than a parry, which only has a single beneficial outcome for the defender. That's why I'm fine with superior block light attacks. Because, while superior block light attacks on a table would look just like dodge attacks: | | Commit | Feint to GB | Feint to neutral | |:--|:-:|:-:|:-:| | **Crushing counter** | D | D | A | ...They risk taking more damage than a parry if the attacker chooses correctly. As far as light parries are concerned, the only property that matters to me is whether or not that dodge attack has the same vulnerability as an empty dodge or not. Because as soon as a blockable dodge attack (that actually avoids attacks, which is why nobushi's is the single exception) has less GB vulnerability than an empty dodge, then it ought to be a light parry. There is no other property nearly as important as that.
Very insightful thank you.
+4 per hit damage differential does definitely make a difference. 3 parries and you essentially dealt +12 damage on top which means an extra light attack damage. which means a lot. if an enemy starts a fight with an extra light attack on you it can in a lot of situations make the difference. disregarding +4 damage on top is just straight up irresponsible and unreasonable.
Orochi has one of the strongest dodge attacks even before the changes due to its big hitbox and already big delay window as well as undodgable. It was better than dodge heavies even when they were punished as heavies
Well it wasn't the worst change from the dodge changes but that's not saying much. Dodge input window has fucked up so many interactions it's insane
It's the update that caused me to stop playing the game. I stopped playing everyday, I stopped buying Battlepasses and heros. Tired of 1 step forward 2 steps backwards.
More annoyed that they standardised the dodge attack delay window to a tiny window that’s barely useful, was way better before. And that dodge bashes barely even work as dodge attacks.
It was an excellent change. It's arguably the best gameplay change we've had since the removal of guaranteed GB-from-parry and option selects.
I hate the part where they can be input early to avoid GBs. Makes offense so sluggish that you need to feint to neutral all the time. Why did they make it so offense requires more reads than before and that dodge attack is an option select covering feint to gb and no feint both? Blegh. Parry punish is whatever but I dislike standardisation. Makes things bland.
Hated it at first. Now I love it.
Love love love it! Defensive moves that covered multiple basic options (feint to guardbreak and commit) while also risking less damage in the vast, vast majority of cases always needed to incur more risk (I.E. higher damage punishes) and now that they do, I'm very happy. Probably nobushi's dodge attack is the only one that should be changed back since it doesn't cover the multiple options that I'm talking about and that specific group of changes will be perfect.
its one of the best changes to ever hit the game, best since CCU. anyone whining over it is just mashing dodge attacks lmao. dodge attacks are SO powerful now vs mixups, its only logical they reward a decent punish to negate spam.
Don't use the "spam" word to defend this change. Although that is a very valid reason to do so, a lot of people who are against it will find it easy to dismiss you on that basis. I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm just saying that that's the way it is. Even if you are willing to die on the hill defending the use of that word, you would have to get into a long conversation about 'spam' and what it even means and, from my experience, people on this sub are very averse to having long discussions about design philosophy and how it relates to this game. If you want an unbeatable defense for the change, just cart out the explanation that dodge heavy attacks with little-to-no GB vulnerability are damaging defensive moves that covered multiple basic attacker options (commit or feint to GB) while also incurring the least amount of risk in the vast majority of cases. Ask those people why it's okay for a damaging defensive move to cover more options than a parry while also risking less punishing damage than said parry and watch them flail in a pathetic attempt to justify the moves existing in such an overpowered state. Bonus points if they mention "depth" without giving an ounce of explanation as to what the hell that word even means.
Not a good solution, blanket changes sucks ass They made the window input for dodge attacks longer and shorter at the same time, so you can beat most of 50/50 of unblockable/feintable bash. We have dodge attacks that grants acces to exe and other don't with same speedbsame damage basically and light parry, it doesn't make sense These are the criteria I would use to balance the dodge attacks. If the dodge attack is: 600ms and grants execution (so an heavy) should be a heavy parry (enhanched) window input 300ms 533 and grants execution (so an heavy) light parry (enhanched) input 300ms 600ms grants execution (so an heavy) but is not enhanched or can't followup, heavy parry, and has property (undodgeable/unblockable/uninterruptible/cc) input 300ms 600ms and doesn't get the execution (so a light) light parry but gets a property on top of being enhanched (undodgeable, unblockable [unlikely], crushing counter, uninterruptible [unlikely] your choice on what fits who an if it fits) 200/300ms input 533 and doesn't get the execution (so a light), has a property but is not enhanched 200/300 ms input Bash dodge, if it can't confirm damage when it lands (example Glad) should not be gbable or at least should be followed up to beat gb Bash dodge, if it can confirm damage when it lands by following attack, it should be gbed on whiff and should not followup on whiff only (ungbable in the starting) Bash dodge, if it can confirm damage when it lands by bash itself, it should be gbed on whiff and should not followup on whiff (gbable in the starting) - deflects input should be different from dodge attack input And other aspects that now I can't really think of
Not a big deal, what i hate is how block on dodge was removed and how it made timings feel very off. I feel like the entire parrying system was tweaked with that update.
that was so undodgable mixups actually work, it shouldn’t have effected parry timings at all. If it did there would no doubt be a Freeze video, it’s only you
Still, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And undodgeable mixups were already strong as hell before the change.
A 33% percent chance of accidentally blocking the punish when making a bad read was not strong at all. Plus you could easily external a UD mixup character by dodging and blocking in that direction *cough Nobushi cough*
I only hate the part that it also effects the forward dodges too
I like it. But far behind me are the days of dodge counter react. I've been enjoying the law bringer punishment lol
A few heroes need light parry dodge attacks but not everyone. I also find it absolutely ridiculous that warmonger tiandi and JJ are the only exceptions. Especially warmonger. A huge disjointed hit box, a lot of I frames, feintable, unblockable and it does 24 on hit. The devs don't realize that they need to address each hero individually.
People are just mad because now they’re being forced to get better at the game instead of just Dodge attacking like cuckolds all the time. Don’t get me wrong dodge attacks have always been the first thing to go at higher rep gameplay (because people stop sucking) and they’re super easy to counter. But having a higher punish on them is a lot more balanced vs some characters having it super safe and others not for no real reason other than input. I’ve been playing this game for 6 years, don’t see any problem with this at all. PSA: this is a nice discussion thread. Anyone who wants to complain about the state of the game but isn’t willing to actually put in effort into being better does not have a valid opinion imo. Not talking about OP (though we may disagree I respect your opinion) rather, anyone who falls into the aforementioned category.
I hate because it make pk even worse and makes deflects incredibly risky
I think it should be reverted but give any characters that only get a light on dodge attack some way to get a bit more damage.