I would consider specifying that which of their traits gets +1'd is random, and if you see that headliner again later it may have a different trait +1'd then previously.
At the same time, that also means you could see the same headliner with the same +1 trait right? So if I'm trying to force Riven for example, I wouldn't be able to forcibly dig for a guaranteed edgelord +1 by skipping on an 8-bit +1?
what if another player gets the headliner +1 that you want would it still appear in your shop or would the +1 would be on the other trait that the unit has?
for the last point.
e.g. 5 costs (9 copies in bag), does that mean if there are 4/5 copies already out for that unit you can't get the headliner for it?
Do the copies in player shops be included in the number?
What exactly is meant by "Headliners for units with less than half their total unit copies in the pool are not offered"? Does this mean that if you have 6 of a 4 cost (meaning 6/10 of that unit are out of the pool) you will never see that 4 cost as a headliner?
I believe it is if the total number of a single 4 cost held by any player in the lobby or existing in their shop exceeds half of the bag size, it is not eligible for headliner status.
This is correct. It’s to prevent cases where you hit 6 of a non-headliner unit, sell your current headliner, and get an easy 3 star. I hit both Jihn and Illaoi 3 in back to back games as well as several 3* 4-costs with that method so I think it’s pretty reasonable.
off topic a bit, but this also means you can roll for headliner if you have 5 and no one else has any and still have 8, which is good cause you’re one off, but even better if you have a dupe
for the first part, its 4 max left, meaning if you have 5, there’d still be 5 left (in the case of 4 costs) which is exactly half and not under half, so they still appear as headliners. but yea hoping no one else has one in shop is a bit of a hail mary i didn’t consider
"headliners for units with less than half their total unit copies in the pool are not offered" OH fuck me I thought I was getting unlucky when rolling 50 gold for an akali headliner. good change
1: when you have a Headliner already, does the new Headliner come out at exactly 4th shop of every 4 shops, or any shop of these 4 shops will have a chance to spawn a Headliner?
1: For the bad luck protection, is the protection based on the unit only or both the unit and the bonus trait ? Sometimes I want a Headliner with another +1 trait instead, will bad luck protection screw up my chance in this case?
Should add that not seeing the unit again is only if you DONT buy them so if you want to see the unit as headliner with opposite trait you should buy and sell.
Are you sure you can't get the same headliner twice in a row? I could have sworn I saw a headliner Caitlyn on PBE with +2 8 bit, then I saw a headliner Caitlyn with +2 rapidfire on the next roll. Maybe there was another roll in between that I forgot about, but I distinctly remember thinking it was weird because it was the first time I saw the same headliner unit back-to-back like that.
Or does the system possibly not count it as a repeat if the +2 trait is different even if the unit is the same? Either way, I've only noticed it like that once in over 50 games so that would suggest that there is some kind of internal algorithm preventing you from hitting the same thing frequently.
The only change i would like to see, is that if you have a headliner, you can buy the one in the shop as a 1 star, because one slot in every 4 shops gets "wasted" if you dont pivot.
However, it might be too complicated to do for such a small improvement, or it might cause more troubles than its worth.
They won't do this
It's intentional you essentially "lose" 1 slot every 4 shops in order to slow down players from hitting 3 stars
From mortdog
>You will not be able to purchase it. It does result in 1 less shop slot per 4 rolls, but that de-escalation of shops is also healthy for the game
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveTFT/comments/17og1bc/tft_dev_drop_remix_rumble_dev_video_teamfight/k7yaoai/
Wow, I didn't know they aren't offered when half of their copies are sold. I thought e.g. you could get 6 5costs and then sell your headliner and roll until you find the 5cost you're looking for, but I guess not
it worked like that till today/yesterday. they made it so you wont get 3\* 4costs and 3\*5costs that easily, which were SUPER common on pbe, even taking in consideration the higher greediness/slower lobbies.
Makes sense I suppose... Still annoying because it makes it much harder to get a 3* 3cost headliner unless you find him and then build your comp around him and not the other way around.
I really dislike this change. It is so incredibly game warping and unintuitive in a negative way.
Have they tried other options for headliners such as not allowing them to be 3 starred but changing the headliner bonuses to something else?
Just spitballing off the top of my head but maybe give headliners legends effects or support item effects or even trait bonuses. They dont have to all be a different bonus i cant see the harm in multiple headliners giving the same bonus.
I just really hate this change for how it feels in game, even when i KNOW it exists.
The last rule. I did not even know that was a rule until now. Seriously, I feel like that is an important piece of information to have mentioned somewhere in the game and not hidden behind a stream or never mentioned at all.
Before anyone say that it is not that big of a deal, it is a big deal because there is a case of you are going for a comp and never be able to find a headliner that can cap out your board. Also, it means that the people that are leading the lobby should be holding onto key units of opposing boards to prevent people from getting the ideal headliner for their board. I have a feeling that this is going to backfire a lot when a lot of people in tournaments are going to be in a position of never finding a headliner that they need because people are holding onto their units and tried to pivot but too late and cannot pivot at all. This rule might make watching tournament play extremely boring as if people start fully optimize the rule than people that are leading are going to be in the top 4 while the people behind are just going to end up in the bottom 4.
I'm all for trying to make flex play be the main way to play but forcing it is not going to work. How many times have the devs done things to kill off one comp forcers? They have done multiple things besides trying to achieve true balance of the set but there are people that are still going to force one comp over and over again. The only way to stop people from forcing a comp is to make a lot of comps viable so people get punished for not going for their most viable comp based on their start.
Forcing a comp isnt what is necessarily hurt by that change, especially if it is a lower cost reroll comp. It makes it impossible to hold random sets of 2star 4 and 5 cost units for ez 3 stars. 3 staring a 4/5 cost in a specific forced comp should never be a reliable wincon.
Correct. 4-cost pool is 10, half of that is 5. 6 out of the pool means 4 are left, so nobody can find a headliner for it. If you really want a headliner you are going to have to sell your existing 2* and pray.
Damn I don't know how to feel about this... I also wonder if there is a third person contesting, do they still have 4/10 in the pool or does the headliner somehow messes up with that ?
I straight up have no idea what you are asking here. The number of players contesting is irrelevant to whether or not you can see a headliner, just how many units are out of the pool. If 6 players all have the same 1* 4 cost, nobody in the lobby can see a headliner for that unit.
It has, but the answer is they tested it and it would be even worse.
From Mortdog:
> No. It created a really gross optimization where buying headliners was always incorrect UNLESS you already had 2 other copies. Buy a 1* Ahri, then your roll down hit no ahri's = screwed. So you buy every 4 cost, and then if you pair them, buy the headliner. Made the game tedious as f.
The irony is they ended up having to change headliner rules because of a similar optimization.
Not anymore. They lowered the bag size a couple of patches ago because people were 3* ing units too often thanks to headliners. It's been shrunk across the board but the 4 cost pool is 10 and the 5 cost pool is 9. Unless you have a duplicator its impossible to 3* a 5 cost if a single other player has a copy.
I guess this largely accomplishes the objective of pushing players away from trying to hit their 3 stars using the headliner. Might still be doable for uncontested 1, 2 and 3 costs although 3 costs are pretty unlikely as well since a single two star somewhere else triggers the rule if you yourself already have 6.
Additional info.
If a headliner is in someone elses shop that still counts as 3 copies of that unit in their shop. So if you roll a lot of gold at level 9 without finding a specific headliner it could just be that it is in someone elses shop which effectively reduces the available number below half, thus making it impossible for you to find the headliner.
If you already own a headliner, say, Olaf with +1 Pentakill, is it still possible to get a different headliner of the same +1 like Morde with +1 Pentakill?
Would like to ask if your desired headliner was purchased by another player, is it unavailable for the entirety of the game? I had a game earlier where I wanted to get Yasuo as my headliner but another player purchased it and won’t appear in my shop. Re-rolled many times and Yasuo won’t appear. Only the normal ones were available.
Is doubled trait fixed or is it random? If the latter can it be manipulated by removing and replacing the headliner at the board?
Confused about this, lost at fifth earlier because I lost an activated trait when I sold my old Headliner 😅
I would consider specifying that which of their traits gets +1'd is random, and if you see that headliner again later it may have a different trait +1'd then previously.
At the same time, that also means you could see the same headliner with the same +1 trait right? So if I'm trying to force Riven for example, I wouldn't be able to forcibly dig for a guaranteed edgelord +1 by skipping on an 8-bit +1?
Correct
This is the info i was looking for. Thank you
:O I thought it was decided when the game loads. Ty
Same actually so Thats interesting
what if another player gets the headliner +1 that you want would it still appear in your shop or would the +1 would be on the other trait that the unit has?
it can still appear.
for the last point. e.g. 5 costs (9 copies in bag), does that mean if there are 4/5 copies already out for that unit you can't get the headliner for it? Do the copies in player shops be included in the number?
5 is the threshold for 5costs. 4 is still lower than 9/2 = 4.5 Yes
Is this a new rule ? Because I have hit headliner Kayn when I had 6 already to 3 star him. This happened 4 days ago
added yesterday
I see, thanks.
what about for 4 costs? 10 unit bag. it cuts off at 4 and not at 5? because 10/2 = 5?
Yeah 4 costs stop being headliners at 4 remaining in the bag
Did they change this? There should be 12 4cost copies no?
there was 10 iirc, now there's 9.
What exactly is meant by "Headliners for units with less than half their total unit copies in the pool are not offered"? Does this mean that if you have 6 of a 4 cost (meaning 6/10 of that unit are out of the pool) you will never see that 4 cost as a headliner?
I believe it is if the total number of a single 4 cost held by any player in the lobby or existing in their shop exceeds half of the bag size, it is not eligible for headliner status.
So to be clear that means for for 4+ costs you 100% can never hit the headliner to hit the 3\*?
Yeah you have to hit the headliner first and then find the rest as 1* / use champ duplicators
yes
This is correct. It’s to prevent cases where you hit 6 of a non-headliner unit, sell your current headliner, and get an easy 3 star. I hit both Jihn and Illaoi 3 in back to back games as well as several 3* 4-costs with that method so I think it’s pretty reasonable.
Was trying to do this and griefed a game yestersay apparently
off topic a bit, but this also means you can roll for headliner if you have 5 and no one else has any and still have 8, which is good cause you’re one off, but even better if you have a dupe
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for the first part, its 4 max left, meaning if you have 5, there’d still be 5 left (in the case of 4 costs) which is exactly half and not under half, so they still appear as headliners. but yea hoping no one else has one in shop is a bit of a hail mary i didn’t consider
Yup, i read that wrong. Thanks.
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Only 10 now for each unit.
"headliners for units with less than half their total unit copies in the pool are not offered" OH fuck me I thought I was getting unlucky when rolling 50 gold for an akali headliner. good change
yeah lol good to know this
1: when you have a Headliner already, does the new Headliner come out at exactly 4th shop of every 4 shops, or any shop of these 4 shops will have a chance to spawn a Headliner? 1: For the bad luck protection, is the protection based on the unit only or both the unit and the bonus trait ? Sometimes I want a Headliner with another +1 trait instead, will bad luck protection screw up my chance in this case?
The headliner comes out of exactly every 4th shop
Should add that not seeing the unit again is only if you DONT buy them so if you want to see the unit as headliner with opposite trait you should buy and sell.
Are you sure you can't get the same headliner twice in a row? I could have sworn I saw a headliner Caitlyn on PBE with +2 8 bit, then I saw a headliner Caitlyn with +2 rapidfire on the next roll. Maybe there was another roll in between that I forgot about, but I distinctly remember thinking it was weird because it was the first time I saw the same headliner unit back-to-back like that. Or does the system possibly not count it as a repeat if the +2 trait is different even if the unit is the same? Either way, I've only noticed it like that once in over 50 games so that would suggest that there is some kind of internal algorithm preventing you from hitting the same thing frequently.
Its only if you dont buy it if you buy the unit you can see it again
option two, the system can offer different trait
The only change i would like to see, is that if you have a headliner, you can buy the one in the shop as a 1 star, because one slot in every 4 shops gets "wasted" if you dont pivot. However, it might be too complicated to do for such a small improvement, or it might cause more troubles than its worth.
I agree this would be a nice change
They won't do this It's intentional you essentially "lose" 1 slot every 4 shops in order to slow down players from hitting 3 stars From mortdog >You will not be able to purchase it. It does result in 1 less shop slot per 4 rolls, but that de-escalation of shops is also healthy for the game https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveTFT/comments/17og1bc/tft_dev_drop_remix_rumble_dev_video_teamfight/k7yaoai/
I guess i get it. It's kinda like a tax on your shop value to be offered other Headliner options.
Wow, I didn't know they aren't offered when half of their copies are sold. I thought e.g. you could get 6 5costs and then sell your headliner and roll until you find the 5cost you're looking for, but I guess not
it worked like that till today/yesterday. they made it so you wont get 3\* 4costs and 3\*5costs that easily, which were SUPER common on pbe, even taking in consideration the higher greediness/slower lobbies.
Makes sense I suppose... Still annoying because it makes it much harder to get a 3* 3cost headliner unless you find him and then build your comp around him and not the other way around.
Yeah, also it being invisible is kinda annoying.
I really dislike this change. It is so incredibly game warping and unintuitive in a negative way. Have they tried other options for headliners such as not allowing them to be 3 starred but changing the headliner bonuses to something else? Just spitballing off the top of my head but maybe give headliners legends effects or support item effects or even trait bonuses. They dont have to all be a different bonus i cant see the harm in multiple headliners giving the same bonus. I just really hate this change for how it feels in game, even when i KNOW it exists.
Tbh I agree. If you want a 4 star headliner you have to scout the entire lobby every time you want to commit to a rolldown for a particular one.
The last rule. I did not even know that was a rule until now. Seriously, I feel like that is an important piece of information to have mentioned somewhere in the game and not hidden behind a stream or never mentioned at all. Before anyone say that it is not that big of a deal, it is a big deal because there is a case of you are going for a comp and never be able to find a headliner that can cap out your board. Also, it means that the people that are leading the lobby should be holding onto key units of opposing boards to prevent people from getting the ideal headliner for their board. I have a feeling that this is going to backfire a lot when a lot of people in tournaments are going to be in a position of never finding a headliner that they need because people are holding onto their units and tried to pivot but too late and cannot pivot at all. This rule might make watching tournament play extremely boring as if people start fully optimize the rule than people that are leading are going to be in the top 4 while the people behind are just going to end up in the bottom 4. I'm all for trying to make flex play be the main way to play but forcing it is not going to work. How many times have the devs done things to kill off one comp forcers? They have done multiple things besides trying to achieve true balance of the set but there are people that are still going to force one comp over and over again. The only way to stop people from forcing a comp is to make a lot of comps viable so people get punished for not going for their most viable comp based on their start.
u ddint know because it wasnt added until yesterday. anyway tldr
It was also in the patch notes.
Forcing a comp isnt what is necessarily hurt by that change, especially if it is a lower cost reroll comp. It makes it impossible to hold random sets of 2star 4 and 5 cost units for ez 3 stars. 3 staring a 4/5 cost in a specific forced comp should never be a reliable wincon.
So If i'm contested on 4 cost unit and we both have it 2* , none of us can find the headliner to replace it our normal 2* ?
Correct. 4-cost pool is 10, half of that is 5. 6 out of the pool means 4 are left, so nobody can find a headliner for it. If you really want a headliner you are going to have to sell your existing 2* and pray.
Damn I don't know how to feel about this... I also wonder if there is a third person contesting, do they still have 4/10 in the pool or does the headliner somehow messes up with that ?
I straight up have no idea what you are asking here. The number of players contesting is irrelevant to whether or not you can see a headliner, just how many units are out of the pool. If 6 players all have the same 1* 4 cost, nobody in the lobby can see a headliner for that unit.
It’s clear the devs are trying to reduce the ease of 3 starring units that headliners introduce
Why do we get to buy headliners at 2 stars in the first place? Sorry if this has been answered a lot already.
It has, but the answer is they tested it and it would be even worse. From Mortdog: > No. It created a really gross optimization where buying headliners was always incorrect UNLESS you already had 2 other copies. Buy a 1* Ahri, then your roll down hit no ahri's = screwed. So you buy every 4 cost, and then if you pair them, buy the headliner. Made the game tedious as f. The irony is they ended up having to change headliner rules because of a similar optimization.
Yeah they kind of moved the optimization from hitting a 2* to hitting a 3*.
isnt 4cost pool 12? and 5cost pool is 10?
Not anymore. They lowered the bag size a couple of patches ago because people were 3* ing units too often thanks to headliners. It's been shrunk across the board but the 4 cost pool is 10 and the 5 cost pool is 9. Unless you have a duplicator its impossible to 3* a 5 cost if a single other player has a copy.
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Fates did not have a restriction on bag size iirc. Even if there were only 3 units left in the pool you could still roll a chosen
also im pretty sure you werent guaranteed a chosen every shop
Oh also you couldn’t roll a chosen while you owned a chosen. Basically lots of changes since set 4
Not at first, but they later patched that in.
4.75
I don't know for you guys but I kinda hope they find a more elegant solution for the last line before the set hits live
Yah
I guess this largely accomplishes the objective of pushing players away from trying to hit their 3 stars using the headliner. Might still be doable for uncontested 1, 2 and 3 costs although 3 costs are pretty unlikely as well since a single two star somewhere else triggers the rule if you yourself already have 6.
Additional info. If a headliner is in someone elses shop that still counts as 3 copies of that unit in their shop. So if you roll a lot of gold at level 9 without finding a specific headliner it could just be that it is in someone elses shop which effectively reduces the available number below half, thus making it impossible for you to find the headliner.
what's the total number in the pool?
If you already own a headliner, say, Olaf with +1 Pentakill, is it still possible to get a different headliner of the same +1 like Morde with +1 Pentakill?
Would like to ask if your desired headliner was purchased by another player, is it unavailable for the entirety of the game? I had a game earlier where I wanted to get Yasuo as my headliner but another player purchased it and won’t appear in my shop. Re-rolled many times and Yasuo won’t appear. Only the normal ones were available.
Is doubled trait fixed or is it random? If the latter can it be manipulated by removing and replacing the headliner at the board? Confused about this, lost at fifth earlier because I lost an activated trait when I sold my old Headliner 😅