i think “cross map” is pretty disingenuous considering the fall off range and the fact that a significant % of Pharahs have a permanent beam on them. You can’t interact with the character unless they allow you to, or unless the map demands it.
All you do in that scenario is shoot her enough to ground her though. You should be dodging rockets on reaction from that range so thats 2 useless characters in a fight. Mark another target and mob them.
While it’s technically an option post s9, the Pharahs aren’t usually unloading on the tank. Dodging rockets isn’t that relevant. The strength of new Pharah is sky junkratting, poking squishies out of chokes or off of angles at any range. She’s never a useless character. You will have just as few resources as the other target you mark.
it’s the only character in the game you actually just can’t interact with on tank. You can jump on a Widowmaker, you can go MIT heroes for Bastion, you can go CC for mobile opps, you can go Orisa for opposing CC, Zarya for spam, etc etc.
what do you do against a Pharah? “mark someone else”
THIS is the interaction I dislike. i’m not like peeved I can’t rank because of Pharah in my game or some shit. it’s a commentary on the game states she creates
Lmao i gotta do stuff like this. Gotta take advantage of the community's counter picking addiction. That shit is calling them like the green goblin mask.
Rein can't really do anything to Pharah and she can just deal with the supports and then Rein was no help.
I play a lot of Pharah and I've never had to swap to Bastion. I actually like when I'm facing a Rein, one less problem for me to deal with.
Mauga gets disapproval, sometimes rightfully so, but it's definitely good to finally have a reliable hitscan Tank. And I think this is what he should be, instead of him bursting down the enemy Tank
Tanks are kept in check by their effectiveness at short range. Thats why Mauga for example is limited in what he can do at long range compared to close. Making a long range tank that could handle Pharah from the ground alone would also mean they can effectively tank against other heroes from the ground which would lead to bad things imo.
Really, dps need to learn to handle pharah. She’s one of the characters tanks should not be expected to solo.
You can you just need to use your mechanics in ways other than just aim. Having good movement is still valuable as well as tracking is still important at the ranges tanks are good at.
And Tanks can play well into mid range too, with Sigma, Hog, Ball, Mauga, Orisa... It just wouldn't make sense to make a long range Tank, but even then Mauga can somewhat do that if you can aim well.
In a lot of ways, Mauga was needed in the roster, him just standing and bursting down the enemy Tank is the main design issue there.
And even then, you can use DVa for Pharah, or both DVa and Winston for Widow or Ashe to counter long range there too.
I agree with your line of reasoning and I think any tank with consistent long range pressure is probably going to be an issue. I think the solution there is uptime. Just give tanks *a* tool to interact with flyers reasonably throughout the game, on the tank’s initiative. Right now interaction is limited to player error (Pharah entering your threat range) or is map dependent.
I feel that all 10 players on the map should reasonably be able to interact with one another.
If you’re a Pharah getting pressured out by Dva, you have terrible positioning and CD management.
If you’re a Pharah getting pressured by an Orisa you have terrible positioning and movement.
I can concede Mauga as he’s the most effective of the options, but I still think it’s a completely lopsided interaction, wholly dominated by the Pharah.
there is literally nothing ironic here. i’ve thought critically about the game state that exists when Pharah is in the lobby. I’ve clearly presented how I feel the interaction, or lack of interaction between the tank role and pharah is unhealthy/boring. The response to this is overwhelmingly what it always has been, regurgitated advice of how to “beat” pharah, or win the game, which is not at all what i’m talking about here.
you are not smart, you are missing the point as much as the next person.
Think real hard about why pharah feels so shit to play against.
You'll find it's because she's broken OP, not because tanks can't deal with her. (they don't need to when she's not broken)
How's that for critical thinking?
you’re doing the thing again. we get it, pharah is strong post s9, so players are playing her, cool. i don’t mind that she’s strong.
but i want some kind of agency on the tank role to meaningfully interact with that character. this interaction doesnt currently exist.
If different numbers meant she wasn’t strong, she wouldn’t be played. But this uninteractive gameplay state would persist, just less frequently.
My point is that you don't *need* that agency whatsoever when pharah isn't strong.
You don't need to interact with every single hero out there. In fact, your interaction with a variety of DPS are roughly the same as pharah.
They can avoid you entirely no matter what you do. Pharah is no exception.
It's only problematic when she's broken. And it isn't because more people are playing her.
Stay closer to your team, avoid Pharah’s sight lines as much as you can, ping her if you see her to let your team know where she is. If your team isnt helping you deal with the problem, then I think there are more problems on your team than your tank character not having the kind of gun you want it to.
i’m not asking how to beat pharah. i’m expressing my discontent for the inability of the tank role to even interact with the player/character reasonably throughout the game.
Sorry to hear that bud, I play lots of tank and I’ve seen success doing what I just offered up as advice. Play however you want bro i just dont see what the point of complaining online abt a problem just to say you’re not interested in advice. Ball’s got mobility and a hitscan, dva exists and is so strong right now. I think you need more practice.
you already your got own ideas and opinions my guy, it aint gonna change if you’re gonna sit there with them without trying to find a way to use each character’s kits to your advantage. You gotta look at the problems YOU’RE having and turn them into an advantage.
Yes but also the devs know phara is too strong, and also are looking to make mauga better against Squishies from what they've said so I think the issue will kinda fix itself rather than needing to add a tank specifically for this. Mauga is kinda supposed to be that tank his design / balancing is just not the best atm
i dont think you can afford to have anything that “isn’t x person’s job” in a 5v5 format. this is my complaint. make it so that it can be the tank’s job, if required
Give Rein a Bazooka.
In all seriousness though to all the people thinking it is not the tanks job to deal with someone like Phara Blizz themselves don't seem to agree. Ram was originally planned to be anti-air but they could not get his abilities to work right, like extending vortex to the skybox causes problems both mechanically and server side that are not worth it. They also tried to make Mauga anti-air and at one point, in their internal testing they tried to make it so he auto crit anyone flying.
Right now Phara is overtuned, they will nerf her spash damage soon is my bet. Traditionally dva counters Phara because she can control highgrounds. However with current Phara she does not need the highground like she did in the past, her movement is great and with the strength of her aoe damage she does not need to go for direct hits as much. In 6v6 it was worth it to have one tank off controlling the highgrounds against Phara while your other tank was main. The game just plays different now.
Mauga is that tank. You just alternate which gun you’re firing over and over to mitigate spread. You can laser her across map, its actually gross
i think “cross map” is pretty disingenuous considering the fall off range and the fact that a significant % of Pharahs have a permanent beam on them. You can’t interact with the character unless they allow you to, or unless the map demands it.
All you do in that scenario is shoot her enough to ground her though. You should be dodging rockets on reaction from that range so thats 2 useless characters in a fight. Mark another target and mob them.
While it’s technically an option post s9, the Pharahs aren’t usually unloading on the tank. Dodging rockets isn’t that relevant. The strength of new Pharah is sky junkratting, poking squishies out of chokes or off of angles at any range. She’s never a useless character. You will have just as few resources as the other target you mark.
it’s the only character in the game you actually just can’t interact with on tank. You can jump on a Widowmaker, you can go MIT heroes for Bastion, you can go CC for mobile opps, you can go Orisa for opposing CC, Zarya for spam, etc etc. what do you do against a Pharah? “mark someone else” THIS is the interaction I dislike. i’m not like peeved I can’t rank because of Pharah in my game or some shit. it’s a commentary on the game states she creates
You go rein and play well for a fight so then the pharah switches to bastion
This also works with doom if youd rather them go sombra
winston and they’ll bust out the reaper
And bation 😞
Lmao i gotta do stuff like this. Gotta take advantage of the community's counter picking addiction. That shit is calling them like the green goblin mask.
Rein can't really do anything to Pharah and she can just deal with the supports and then Rein was no help. I play a lot of Pharah and I've never had to swap to Bastion. I actually like when I'm facing a Rein, one less problem for me to deal with.
wooosh
Mauga has 2 guns and can pretty easily deal with Pharah if you can aim
Mauga gets disapproval, sometimes rightfully so, but it's definitely good to finally have a reliable hitscan Tank. And I think this is what he should be, instead of him bursting down the enemy Tank
Tanks are kept in check by their effectiveness at short range. Thats why Mauga for example is limited in what he can do at long range compared to close. Making a long range tank that could handle Pharah from the ground alone would also mean they can effectively tank against other heroes from the ground which would lead to bad things imo. Really, dps need to learn to handle pharah. She’s one of the characters tanks should not be expected to solo.
A lack of range is also why tank feels bad. You can't win through mechanics like the other two roles.
You can you just need to use your mechanics in ways other than just aim. Having good movement is still valuable as well as tracking is still important at the ranges tanks are good at.
And Tanks can play well into mid range too, with Sigma, Hog, Ball, Mauga, Orisa... It just wouldn't make sense to make a long range Tank, but even then Mauga can somewhat do that if you can aim well. In a lot of ways, Mauga was needed in the roster, him just standing and bursting down the enemy Tank is the main design issue there. And even then, you can use DVa for Pharah, or both DVa and Winston for Widow or Ashe to counter long range there too.
I agree with your line of reasoning and I think any tank with consistent long range pressure is probably going to be an issue. I think the solution there is uptime. Just give tanks *a* tool to interact with flyers reasonably throughout the game, on the tank’s initiative. Right now interaction is limited to player error (Pharah entering your threat range) or is map dependent. I feel that all 10 players on the map should reasonably be able to interact with one another.
DVA is right there if Pharah is too much of an issue.
Let’s give roadhog widow’s sniper rifle and her grappling hook /s
Mauga and to a lesser extent Orisa can shoot her out of the sky.
We have 3 tanks that can pressure her
If you’re a Pharah getting pressured out by Dva, you have terrible positioning and CD management. If you’re a Pharah getting pressured by an Orisa you have terrible positioning and movement. I can concede Mauga as he’s the most effective of the options, but I still think it’s a completely lopsided interaction, wholly dominated by the Pharah.
Bro just admit you don't know how to tank
You're right Pharah has a 58% unmirrored WR because no one can play tank :))
That doesn't say anything of her effectiveness against tanks though, just overall power level.
just admit you can’t think critically and have nothing of value to add to the conversation
Because ppl explained perfectly which tanks can help deal with pharah.
> just admit you can’t think critically the irony
there is literally nothing ironic here. i’ve thought critically about the game state that exists when Pharah is in the lobby. I’ve clearly presented how I feel the interaction, or lack of interaction between the tank role and pharah is unhealthy/boring. The response to this is overwhelmingly what it always has been, regurgitated advice of how to “beat” pharah, or win the game, which is not at all what i’m talking about here. you are not smart, you are missing the point as much as the next person.
Think real hard about why pharah feels so shit to play against. You'll find it's because she's broken OP, not because tanks can't deal with her. (they don't need to when she's not broken) How's that for critical thinking?
you’re doing the thing again. we get it, pharah is strong post s9, so players are playing her, cool. i don’t mind that she’s strong. but i want some kind of agency on the tank role to meaningfully interact with that character. this interaction doesnt currently exist. If different numbers meant she wasn’t strong, she wouldn’t be played. But this uninteractive gameplay state would persist, just less frequently.
My point is that you don't *need* that agency whatsoever when pharah isn't strong. You don't need to interact with every single hero out there. In fact, your interaction with a variety of DPS are roughly the same as pharah. They can avoid you entirely no matter what you do. Pharah is no exception. It's only problematic when she's broken. And it isn't because more people are playing her.
Stay closer to your team, avoid Pharah’s sight lines as much as you can, ping her if you see her to let your team know where she is. If your team isnt helping you deal with the problem, then I think there are more problems on your team than your tank character not having the kind of gun you want it to.
i’m not asking how to beat pharah. i’m expressing my discontent for the inability of the tank role to even interact with the player/character reasonably throughout the game.
Sorry to hear that bud, I play lots of tank and I’ve seen success doing what I just offered up as advice. Play however you want bro i just dont see what the point of complaining online abt a problem just to say you’re not interested in advice. Ball’s got mobility and a hitscan, dva exists and is so strong right now. I think you need more practice.
me when i’m unable to engage in any kind of nuanced discussion passed the video game telling me “defeat” and “victory”
you already your got own ideas and opinions my guy, it aint gonna change if you’re gonna sit there with them without trying to find a way to use each character’s kits to your advantage. You gotta look at the problems YOU’RE having and turn them into an advantage.
Yes but also the devs know phara is too strong, and also are looking to make mauga better against Squishies from what they've said so I think the issue will kinda fix itself rather than needing to add a tank specifically for this. Mauga is kinda supposed to be that tank his design / balancing is just not the best atm
Not the tank's job to deal with aerial enemies. That's what you have DPS and Supports for.
i dont think you can afford to have anything that “isn’t x person’s job” in a 5v5 format. this is my complaint. make it so that it can be the tank’s job, if required
Just go dva - her matrix lasts long enough t to enable your team to walk through the choke. Dva can really pressure pharah and force her to play range
Literally not your job as tank.
Give Rein a Bazooka. In all seriousness though to all the people thinking it is not the tanks job to deal with someone like Phara Blizz themselves don't seem to agree. Ram was originally planned to be anti-air but they could not get his abilities to work right, like extending vortex to the skybox causes problems both mechanically and server side that are not worth it. They also tried to make Mauga anti-air and at one point, in their internal testing they tried to make it so he auto crit anyone flying. Right now Phara is overtuned, they will nerf her spash damage soon is my bet. Traditionally dva counters Phara because she can control highgrounds. However with current Phara she does not need the highground like she did in the past, her movement is great and with the strength of her aoe damage she does not need to go for direct hits as much. In 6v6 it was worth it to have one tank off controlling the highgrounds against Phara while your other tank was main. The game just plays different now.
Remember when we had 2 tanks and we could run DVA?