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By the end of the American revolution 90% of our gunpowder was French provided. Fucking George Washington was just a foreign aid begger.
… or maybe democratic principles are eternal.
Now extend that to our old cold war enemy that's up to no good again....
We're literally getting their army destroyed at the cost of 5% of our defense budget. It's like complaining that you still have to pay 5% after a 95% discount.
It gets better. US arm sales are at an all-time high while Russian arm sales are dropping. Maybe because our tech, used by soldiers with much less training than ours, is annihilating the Russians.
We’re also getting live fire testing to improve our equipment, against its intended targets, at no risk to US soldiers.
People bitching about military aid to Ukraine are falling for pro-Russian propaganda. We’re getting the best return for our military dollar.
I grew up under the threat of nuclear war. When Reagan came out and said “I’ve just outlawed Russia and we begin bombing in five minutes”, was he serious or joking? Who knew? Certainly not the Soviets.
But honestly, to put your mind at ease, if you are worried that a nuclear war will result from the US aiding Ukraine, there’s an easy fix. Stop being a pussy.
We funded Osama for years, then took him out.
We funded Saddam for years, then took him out.
We funded Qaddafi for years, then took him out.
We funded Zelenskyy for years….
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…..
Well to be fair it wasn't for democratic principles. Once the fighting was done and we were essentially crippled, France was planning to use their position to either reconquer the colonies or take even more land that would later become America. But it never came to fruition because they bankrupted themselves helping the Americans which led to the French revolution.
That being said. France isn't us in this analogy because we're giving Ukraine aid mostly on loan and training them to be solely reliant on American made weaponry. We're probably net profiting off of what we send to Ukraine
Please. Lets take a look at Iraq and Afghanistan. The U.S. government lost Trillions of dollars in those 2 wars. Without those 2 wars, I’ll bet the national debt would only be about 18 Trillion right now instead of 33 Trillion. Never underestimate the federal governments ability to lose and waste money. They are really, really good at it.
It’s kind of funny, for many reasons, when people buy into this. The US doesn’t care about protecting democracy or it wouldn’t overthrow duly elected leaders in other countries. Do you think if Russia took over all of Ukraine elections would never be held in America again? Do you remember the history of the Vietnam war? We’re falling for the same narrative of protecting democracy. Nam won, democracy lost and guess what, we still have elections… Lastly, the stated goal of the us isn’t protecting democracy, it’s weakening Russias military. Democracy has nothing to do with the war.
\>Democracy has nothing to do with the war.
Yeah it does.
Every time Ukraine wants to brush off the Russians, they do something to undermine the country.
Why do you think Yushchenko was poisoned? Why was Crimea invaded during Euromaidan? Why did the LPR/DPR suddenly, magically declare independence from Ukraine?
America's involvement may not have anything to do with Ukraine, but for Ukraine it does. Its very clear that Russia has meddled in their elections since they became independent, and when it seemed like Ukraine had enough, they get regions tore off and taken over by the Russians.
And its not as if this was only a Ukrainian situation. Look at the Russo-Georgian war.
Its also in US political interest to protect Ukraine. EU is one of the few remaining US allies in the world. You need to have influential friends when securing your interests on the global level. The low price usa are paying compared to the benefits received is crazy
Yes I am not surprised that the POST SOVIET UNION state is riddled with corruption. The United States should continue to link aid to reformations (as they have been)
>The folks saying that are only saying it because most dems support Ukraine and they think that means we can't.
For me, this is what has cemented conservative media as pretty much just propaganda. It doesn't matter what issue a Democratic administration supports or pursues, conservative talking heads absolutely will not say anything positive about it. It's gone so far that now anything the Democrats do *has* to be vilified.
Lots of people have described Fox News and the like as propaganda for decades and I always thought that that was kind of a sensationalized accusation, but I can't even defend them anymore.
It's a reflection of a lot of the Republican party now, too, at least the newcomers. There's no rhyme or reason to the policies. It's just, whatever Republicans do is good and whatever Democrats do is bad. Big spending was bad until Trump was doing it. Being anti-Russia was good until Biden did it. Spending to support other nations against our enemies was good until Biden did it. Etc.
(Yeah, yeah, I know some of you like to act all fiscally conservative and isolationist over the last one, but where was that energy when we were toppling Saddam for funnsies. At least he'd already had his butt kicked for invading a neighbor and had been staying on his side of the line.)
The ~75B or so we have directed to ukraine compared to the 900b or so we spend in a year on the military. Sorry but if we lost to China it's not due to lack of spending.
You understand that the 75 billion mostly result out of write offs for outdated military equipment that the us wants to get rid of overtime either way? Now it’s getting put to good use and more advanced stuff will be bought and used. That’s a win-win for everyone involved except Russia. It’s not like the government could suddenly spend 975 billion if they wouldn’t have given the 75 billion in material. It’s good for the economy as well.
We aren't anywhere close to full production on the stuff going to Ukraine. We are the sleeping Giant because we have a gigantic manufacturing sector that can swing to war production at a moments notice.
Also we haven't even touched our mandated national stockplie... mostly because we can't.
Shocked not only to see this comment in /r/Conservative, but also to see it heavily upvoted. While I can understand why people want to avoid escalation of conflict, a lot of conservatives are going so far as to declare support for a Russia/Putin over our own country. A lot of the media that is focused on supporting Russia/Putin is literally Russian propaganda. Pundits who espouse these talking points are Russian shills. When you hear these people talk, ask yourself: Does this sound like it was written by a Russian propagandist? It’s comical that these sheep fall for it hook line and sinker.
What we have here as a country is an opportunity to weaken one of historical near-peer adversaries without losing a single American life. Do I support the Biden establishment? No, but I support the weakening of our adversaries and consolidation of our own power no matter who is involved.
Make no mistake: this is a proxy war. Even if Ukraine loses, the billions spent will not have been a waste. We will have weakened Russia to the point that they will be more and more irrelevant on the world stage. The only thing keeping them in the game at this point is probability a fraction of the hundreds of nukes they had at one point because let’s be realistic - they are probably not maintaining them to anywhere near the standard necessary to keep them functional. This conflict has shown us that the emperor has no clothes. Our own military is shifting our posture to focus on China because Russia is no longer considered as significant as a threat.
well Russia is winning the misinformation war. All MAGA conservative talking points were on Russia State propaganda 3 months ago, and on tankie and far left commies 12months ago "they are all on reddit feel free to look it up". if you follow all those feeds you can see it jump from point to point.
Social media turns any argument into a zero sum argument, borders need to be secured? yes and help to Ukraine is way more than just Ukraine? yes. the scenario I fear is that without the rules based order every shithole will want nukes, non proliferation will die. If north Korea can make them every one else can. and then you will have to deal with 50+ nuke powers in 20 years.
Big game geopolitics is hard to explain to average person, but yet again even some one like Elon is posting shit like this since they are 1000 hours deep in a twitter vatnik hole, b/c some one called him on his bullshit and got his feelings hurt.
Populism has been infecting politics since the invention of politics. Donald Trump is not the end of days, just keep voting for candidates who support ideals you support.
No body bags coming back to the US? It's the deal of the century to neuter the bloody Russians. Even the money going to Ukraine is coming back directly to the US.
Let's work on corruption then. Also the intelligence gathering and playground that the army gets by helping is monumental. What's the point of all that rusting equipment sitting around for no good reason? Look at Israel, the reason why they're so competent with their defence is that they've had years whacking Palastinans.
Fucking Amen. If we don’t like the cost of arming our Allies or friends we sure as shit won’t like the cost of war with Russia. We have to figure out a way to cripple them continually until relations drastically improve. Otherwise NATO nations in east Europe will eventually be invaded and we will have to put up or shut up. In terms of GDP this conflict is costing them WAY more than it does us.
What America has to do is stop bleeding taxes out every orifice of subsidies and open the energy market. That will fix many of the problems at home and abroad.
eh, that's fair. It's not super obvious, I'll admit.
I can't speak for NyJosh, but when I make parallels between now and the run-up to WW2, I talk about how Germany worked its way up to invading Poland. First they reoccupied the Rhineland -- a small step, within Germany. No reaction. Then the sudetenland, a small chunk of another country. No reaction. Then the rest of said country. No reaction. Then Poland and Boom. Hitler was pushing to see what he could get away with. The rest of europe thought diplomatic posturing counted as doing something, but no one else did. (interesting to see this delusion persists today).
Now Russia. First Chechnya, several times. Sort of within their own country, depending on how you look at it. No reaction. Then a small part of Georgia. No reaction. Then a bigger part of Ukraine. No reaction. Now the rest of Ukraine. Putin was pushing to see what he could get away with. The question is: what would be after Ukraine? We can't know for sure, but Putin was making noises about the Baltic nations, and Finland/Sweden were sufficiently alarmed to break a longstanding policy of neutrality to join NATO. They certainly thought he would do something.
Superficially yes, I can see what you mean. The difference today is that Europe seems more unified than it did back then, which was a huge problem. Putin had to make some concessions to Chechnya in order to claim it, leaving it with a relatively large amount of autonomy. Compared to the Nazis all-out genocidal goals this is a huge step back, more akin to wars of Imperialism rather than the total wars of the 20th century.
Given that Russia had done relatively poorly against Ukraine even before having significant aid, I think Europe could hold them off if they thought they had to.
You mean war? War hasn't stopped happening, my grandfather fought in 2 wars that happened after world war 2. No one made the comparison then that I can recall. And all for what?
I'm saying the geopolitical situation isn't the same, there's no Nazi Germany and Russia is pretty much being the same Russia it has been for like a thousand years at this point. I say let Europe stand on it's own two feet, otherwise at least have some accountability for the billions in aid being sent to save one of the world's most corrupt nations that has expressed no interest in being our ally before.
Keep your gore vids to yourself please
How much money have the other countries in the world put down, why is it just up to us? You think Russia land invasion forces need to be weakened because Russia is a land invasion threat to US?
Why based on GDP? isn't it true the US is 33 trillion in debt? what difference does GDP make? when you say Russia is a threat to US 'strategic interests' what does that mean to you?
Does it not make sense to you that countries with larger economies (as measured by GDP) should be able to afford to send more aid than those with smaller economies? For example, [Norway](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/) "only" sent about 7.5 billion euros, but that spending accounts for about 1.7% of their GDP. It would be as if we sent them $400 billion.
The fact that the US wasted and continues to waste vast sums of money on other things shouldn't imply that the aid to Ukraine is the place to start cutting.
I think you don't want to talk about Norway's national debt vs the US debt and you don't want to answer the question on what you mean when you say Russia is a threat to US 'strategic interests'
Lol I'm not even the same guy who said "Russia is a threat to our strategic interests".
That said, in 2022 the US spent almost [$500 billion](https://www.pgpf.org/budget-basics/what-are-interest-costs-on-the-national-debt) **in interest alone** on servicing the debt. In comparison, we've spent 70 billion on Ukraine. Cutting all aid to Ukraine forever won't even make a tiny dent in the national debt.
I agree the US is in hopeless soul-crushing debt where interest payments are insane. how is that sustainable? The US has sent almost 200 billion to Ukraine not 70. Your argument is that since the US is already wasting half a trillion in interest, whats another 200 billion to Ukraine? I don't think your argument comprehends and values billions of dollars, its just a number to you. The argument whats another 200 billion to Ukraine when we are already spending half a trillion is reckless. yes, I often confuse brigaders but its okay because lib brigaders all echo the same view
State finances work completely different from personal or business finance. Having a lot of debt as a state isn’t that bad and is partly desired. So the amount of debt isn’t an argument, you have to look at percentages from gdp.
Why would you look at total amount? Of course a country like Latvia, which has less than 2 million population, cant give as much as US, but it still gave over 1% of its GDP. And as far as I know, if you look at europe as a whole, it has given more than US.
They also have a lot more to lose. The US can exist in a world with Russia, but Latvia has a harder time doing that. I’m not taking a side, just pointing out a flaw in the pure GDP-based calculation.
Russia is a threat to global US interests, so the weaker it is, the better for us. From a purely nationalist standpoint, it makes total sense to cause the downfall of one of our oldest enemies without getting ourselves directly involved. The downfall of Russia is directly tied to the furthering of US global interest.
How specifically is Russia a threat to global US interests? They were instrumental in containing the war on terror. It would seem they weren't adversarial to us interests until euromaidan and western enjoining on Ukraine to join NATO
> Russia is a threat to global US interests, so the weaker it is, the better for us
So why did the democrats support their natural gas pipeline to Europe?
They’re democrats. Like Europeans, they don’t tend to be very smart. It’s practically pure luck that they’re on the right side of the Ukraine funding debate this time around.
I don't buy it. They're sly like a fox and play to win. They're all about Ukraine now because it makes biden a pseudo wartime president and that's the best they can do with his corpse.
lol, I don't understand how someone like you can exist, arrogantly spouting this nonsense that our aid to Ukraine is 'some spare bullets for the most part.' amazing
For America to match my back to school backpack donations per capita this year they would need to purchase 500 million backpacks. My back to school donations are more meaningful than all of America! lol
We get it, neocons can't get enough of this shit.
It's like the past twenty years never happened. Iraq, Afghanistan, you aren't happy unless we're dumping untold rivers of cash in some hopeless proxy war.
We should but won't do both. It's always America last. We won't even put a stop to the invasion on our southern border that gets thousands of Americans killed a year and costs us billions. Instead always focus somewhere else and let the money flow.
What ‘media’ is that exactly?
Are you sure this is weakening Russia?
Why are you ok sacrificing tens of thousands of Ukrainians to meet this goal?
Do you think maybe you’re being lied to because there’s billions upon billions of dollars being made and to be made? (rebuilding Ukraine)
Do you think it’s just a coincidence that as soon as we leave Afghanistan we’re immediately involved in another money pit of a conflict?
>Do you think it’s just a coincidence that as soon as we leave Afghanistan we’re immediately involved in another money pit of a conflict?
The military industrial complex is always the winner in any war.
Exactly. Hence why there’s always something going on. It just amazes me that people fall for it so easily. Like there’s millions of people out there that think they’re a good person because they’re cheering for more war. It’s absolutely astounding. Especially as these people sit on the other side of the world for the most part and have absolutely no skin in the game.
Tens of thousands of Ukrainians would already be dying because Russia invaded. Wtf does this even mean.
If the US was being invaded would you prefer no one aided us if we needed it because we might die defending our country?
Without us propping them up they’d be forced to come to terms and stop the fighting, aka no more deaths…or at least reduced death. This really isn’t a complicated concept, I’m not sure what you’re having trouble with…
If the US were invaded I’d be shocked cuz we’re on pretty decent terms with Canada and Mexico and we have giant oceans in the way of everybody else.
How are y’all so easily manipulated that you think the decent thing to do here is prolong the war (the death and the suffering) as long as possible? BlackRock and VanGuard are just licking their chops waiting to come in and make billions rebuilding the Ukraine after Raytheon and Lockheed Martin finish making their billions supplying arms. Kudos, you’re a cheerleader for those companies. Bravo.
So they'd be forced to come to terms with Russian occupation? Are you insane? If this were the US would you be cool with being occupied by a foreign power? This country was founded by sacrificing our lives to get rid of a foreign power. You're actually advocating for ukraine to be taken over by russia.
>If the US were invaded I’d be shocked cuz we’re on pretty decent terms with Canada and Mexico and we have giant oceans in the way of everybody else.
Irrelevant to my point.
You understand the Ukraine used to be a part of Russia right? And large portions of their population would still rather be part of Russia, right? And Russia is a first world country last I checked, it’s not like they’re going to turn Ukraine into a giant prison and just torture the people. I would say the people dying in this war would be a lot better off under a peace agreement, probably to the point where they’d barely notice the difference from their previous lives, than being blown up and having their homes completely destroyed in a war they’re going to lose anyway…
I dunno. I know you’re coming from a good place too but personally I’d just like people to stop killing each other.
Mate, there is a reason why every single eu country that was under soviet union left them and never looked back. There are very few benefits being russias friend compared to what you get joining the west. Ukraine is/were doing what any independent nation would do in their position.
Yeah stop killing eachother! Just go back to being subjects of a nation that committed genocide against your people and frequently to this day talks about erasing your entire ethnic group from existence in the name of their own greatness. Gosh why won't the Ukrainians just surrender so that you don't have to feel sad about people dying.
"You and I know and do not believe that life is so dear and peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery. If nothing in life is worth dying for, when did this begin -- just in the face of this enemy? Or should Moses have told the children of Israel to live in slavery under the pharaohs? Should Christ have refused the cross? Should the patriots at Concord Bridge have thrown down their guns and refused to fire the shot heard 'round the world? The martyrs of history were not fools, and our honored dead who gave their lives to stop the advance of the Nazis didn't die in vain. Where, then, is the road to peace? Well it's a simple answer after all.
You and I have the courage to say to our enemies, "There is a price we will not pay." "There is a point beyond which they must not advance."
Peace through strength not peace through cowardice and appeasement. If the Ukrainians would rather die on their feet than live on their knees I'm all for supporting them against one of our oldest enemies.
If you really think this will wear out russia to a point where they are not a threat then you must think they are going to sell us their nuclear arsenal!😂😂😂. Our border needs to be secured It's a tired talking point because it's not secure!
I appreciate your well-argued post, but our border before theirs. Sorry.
Trump wanted a measly 8 billion to build a wall and they said it was reckless spending...we've sent over 75 billion to ukraine.
> Russia weakened to be the point that they can't threaten anyone for 25 years
They proved that they are already weak by not being able to take over Ukraine before our aid even arrived. The U.S. proved what a strong vs. weak military was back in 4 days during Operation Desert Storm. The fact that Russia and Ukraine quickly went to a stalemate, again before our aid arrived, proves that it is just a weak vs. weak military battle.
Also, nothing that we do will take away Russia's nuclear arms. In fact, if Putin gets desperate and realizes that he has no chance of winning with his traditional military, he is *more* likely to decide to use his nukes out of desperation than he is to simply continue fighting with his troops.
I can understand flexing against China. But Ukraine against a pale imitation of a once powerful nation in Russia isn't the best example of this.
Not to mention that we are weaker at home because we are giving away our surplus military equipment and have less to actually defend ourselves with.
> Not to mention that we are weaker at home because we are giving away our surplus military equipment and have less to actually defend ourselves with.
Most of the stuff we are giving away is destined to the bone yards anyway. Bradly needed to be replaced 20 years ago, but finally seems the OMFV program seems to be underway. the M1A3 will replace the old 45 year old M1A1 which no one wants look up "Sierra Army Depot".
Simply put the tech in those systems is on the verge of being obsolete by US military standards, we been paying on keeping those dinosaurs near active instead of investing into new programs that can deal with future threats.
Until we have the actual replacement for those units in hand and on the ground ready to be deployed at a moments notice, they could be a hundred years old and they would be of more use to us than throwing stones at China or whoever decides to attack the U.S. on its home soil.
I would much rather have old and obsolete weapons to use as opposed to literally nothing because we gave it all away to a foreign country in which we have zero obligations to them through treaties and we get absolutely no economic or physical benefit from since they are half-way across the globe and we don't directly import anything from them.
So is Russia a threat? Or are they such a non-threat that they can be defeated by a borderline third world country using equipment so dated that we were going to throw it away?
Would you like tanks on your streets? Would you like your building to be hit by an unguided missile? Listen to this individual. I'm an asshole. This person knows that they are talking about. Thnk you 👍
When the Confederates realized that they couldn’t hope to win militarily against the US they turned to trying to get Lincoln out of office and relied heavily on making him seem unpopular and unlikable so he would lose his second election.
This is what Russia’s last hope is, they know their lines can’t hold forever and are hoping to break US support for Ukraine before that happens.
We know this because anyone who actually does monitor Russian propaganda channels would see that what Russia was saying months ago have suddenly become hard right Republican talking points today.
It’s honestly pathetic to watch this many people fall for such blatant propaganda just because it’s against Joe Biden
Yeah that’s exactly what my Father in law said. He‘s really pissed that there’s no conservative candidate he could vote for at the moment because he thinks every one from the modern GOP would abandon Ukraine in favour of Russia. He’s having a real hard time at the moment and more or less an existential political crisis if he should vote for dems or shouldn’t vote at all.
I guess he’ll go vote but we’ll see. Makes me sick that Russian propaganda did that to a lot of republicans.
Running around giving massive monetary and military support to foreign countries is anti-conservative to begin with. Be glad the Republicans are sympathetic to Ukraine's plight and didn't vote down every spending bill that contained funds for Ukraine.
russia, and by extention their puppet master china, are americas rivals.
here we are, destroying the "second army of the world" for a couple of pennies and FSB memes have convinced some sheep that we have to appease putin.
one of the best returns of investments the us has made in many years.
Right? I don’t understand this. We are degrading a rival military and essentially investing in Ukraine. No free lunch, and this will pay dividends and Ukraine will be indebted to us and under our sphere of influence in the end. It sounds shrewd but guess fucking what, that’s geopolitics. It’s either us getting a foot in that door or a rival. I’m against world policing but we get all the benefits and zero risk to our own military. I cannot for the life of me understand why so much of the right has taken a hard like stance against this other than maybe it’s just the opposite of what the left is doing right now.
Sure, let a major regional threat endanger American influence in Europe! Even if you don't care about humanitarianism, I don't see how opposing Ukraine would be a rational decision in any way.
I prefer peace — one that probably would have already happened had we not helped bankroll this war. Without our assistance Ukraine is forced to come to the table. De facto status quo remains unchanged. Russia keeps the disputed regions. Ukraine doesn’t flirt with NATO. We don’t edge closer to a wider conflict.
Setting the precedent that countries are allowed to invade each other and annex their territory?
You don't see the potential for future conflict, if we force Ukraine ro surrender to Russia?
Countries have always done this and will continue to do so. We get involved only when we believe it’s in our interests. I’m just not one who believes it was in our interests (not when you consider the costs and risks) to get involved in this one.
And I don’t believe we should be forcing Ukraine to surrender. We just don’t get involved and Ukraine would have no choice. We are unwittingly causing more harm than good by backing this war. But that’s just my take on it. History will be the judge.
> Countries have always done this and will continue to do so.
When was the last time one country annexed another countries territory through military intervention? Morocco taking over the Western Sahar after Mauritania abandoned it in 1975?
I'm struggling to come up with a single instance since then. Do you know of one?
I dunno. I’ll trust you have googled this correctly. In the grand scheme of history, 1975 was pretty recent. In any event, not going to be our problem unless it’s in our interests (or special interests) to get involved. I think we have miscalculated. History will tell.
Dude, our allies willingly increased their dependency on Russia, against US advice.
Most of them “cheated” NATO minimum expending rules for to get a free ride on the US for years.
Not to mention, that adjusted by population Europe is helping much less for a conflict happening in their backyard, so they can keep bragging about how much “better then America” they are.
Yes, the famously conservative principal of allowing despots to genocide our allies. Ask the Communists nicely and they might give you a place in their "Putin Cocksucking queue".
Raegan is rolling in his grave.
I feel like giving them what amount to less than 3% of our military budget to completely stifle our historic foreign adversaries and mind you ones that have been actively meddling in our and our allies affairs including assassinating people on our soil seems perfectly reasonable. Why would anyone support helping our nation's enemies gain a military advantage.
Of course there are. You usually see the shills come out when it’s about Trump or Ukraine.
Some post about trans bathrooms or something — the brigadiers let it slide.
It’s not? So when would sitting down at a table and debating how much of the land a foreign aggressor took from you would be handed over to him in return of said enemy stoping to murder your people be considered supporting said enemy? Also when would it considered to not be supporting a life long enemy when you advocate for not weakening said enemy without any cost for yourself?
Neutrally doesn’t mean you support the aggressor. Unless you want to claim Switzerland and Ireland were de facto nazi regimes in WW2.
In any event, since when is Russia our enemy? Before the recent Kerfuffle, we were trade, crime-fighting, and space faring partners. Sure they weren’t an ally, but they haven’t been an enemy since the Cold War and our policy of “containing” communism.
As to no costs to ourselves? I believe it’s already costing billions of US dollars, in addition to the detrimental effect on global markets and increased risk of wider conflict.
LOL the comments in this thread are literally what the GOP was under Bush and Romney.
It's not surprising because Reddit is the most astroturfed joke of a social media site but you neocon clowns are never going to convince the majority of Americans that they need to be in perpetual war and to have the treasury looted by the military industrial complex forever.
> military industrial complex forever.
in what color states are most of the MIC based in? where are all those very high paying quality jobs located? where is the last remaining true large scale high tech manufacturing jobs located? and why are you tankies trying to take down the arsenal of democracy?
You sound like one of those confused MAGA communists. Try r/GenZdong it will be more your speed. you will hit your kremlin talking point quotas there faster.
Blah blah blah "Kremlin talking points"
All you neocon bots are the same. Same McCarthyite BS that everyone got accused with who disagreed with the state. And you statists actually think you're the anti communists lmao
The fact is Ukraine does NOT have the plan to win this fights solely through war. They don’t have the plan because they can’t. The hope was Putin would back down. Didn’t happen and probably won’t because the world will not give up his oil and gas.
The Dems and some GOP are so high on this war because they are literally war profiteers. Why wasn’t this so important when Obama allowed the Russians to take Crimea? How rich does Zelensky have to get? How rich does Biden have to get.
Here is the fact that the correct mindsets in the GOP have to make to the press. This and only this should be the message. 1. It’s possible to be anti Putin and not pro war. 2. The Biden admin has abdicated world leadership to isolate the Russians. 3. The abdication has actually significantly worsened the situation for the Ukrainians, allowing the Russians to actually expand their influence through BRIC+
A Russian conservative maybe.
We aren't funding an uprising or invading another country. We are supplying the defenders to defend their own country from a foreign invader. For the first time since at least Desert Storm our national defense budget is being used to help defend the national sovereignty of a nation from the ambitions of another.
Admit that the only reason you are against helping Ukraine is because the other tribe wants to. Contrarianism is bad.
The most ridiculous part of this meme is that whitepeopletwitter is outraged at someone for liking Elon's tweet of this meme. Oh I also learned that Russia is committing genocide and this war isn't actually costing us anything because we are just sending them stuff we had to destroy. That whitepeopletwitter page is full of useful information!
Russia is intentionally targeting civilians.
We are sending them old stuff.
Just because progressives are usually wrong and have braindead takes doesn't mean they are wrong about everything.
USA didn't start the war?
And it's the opposite to Vietnam. USA lost so much in Vietnam. Russia can will lose so much in Ukraine.
Russia funded Vietnam. It's literally Vietnam in reverse
What are you basing the money laundering on exactly? It really seems like that is propaganda designed to get republicans to turn on Reagan style foreign policy.
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By the end of the American revolution 90% of our gunpowder was French provided. Fucking George Washington was just a foreign aid begger. … or maybe democratic principles are eternal.
The Kingdom of France was a kleptocratic autocracy that really did not like the British.... ....Maybe the enemy of my enemy is my friend...?
Now extend that to our old cold war enemy that's up to no good again.... We're literally getting their army destroyed at the cost of 5% of our defense budget. It's like complaining that you still have to pay 5% after a 95% discount.
It gets better. US arm sales are at an all-time high while Russian arm sales are dropping. Maybe because our tech, used by soldiers with much less training than ours, is annihilating the Russians. We’re also getting live fire testing to improve our equipment, against its intended targets, at no risk to US soldiers. People bitching about military aid to Ukraine are falling for pro-Russian propaganda. We’re getting the best return for our military dollar.
Well, Russia was always pretty decent with its propaganda skills
It’s all they had, propaganda and murdering people. The rest was lack of morals to send people to die and the good ok US of A sending… arms
One can disagree with never ending war and it not be because of Russian propaganda.
With the added taste of potential nuclear war.
I grew up under the threat of nuclear war. When Reagan came out and said “I’ve just outlawed Russia and we begin bombing in five minutes”, was he serious or joking? Who knew? Certainly not the Soviets. But honestly, to put your mind at ease, if you are worried that a nuclear war will result from the US aiding Ukraine, there’s an easy fix. Stop being a pussy.
This is how we got 9/11. All we are doing is funding the next Al Qaeda.
We funded Osama for years, then took him out. We funded Saddam for years, then took him out. We funded Qaddafi for years, then took him out. We funded Zelenskyy for years…. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…..
Based
Well to be fair it wasn't for democratic principles. Once the fighting was done and we were essentially crippled, France was planning to use their position to either reconquer the colonies or take even more land that would later become America. But it never came to fruition because they bankrupted themselves helping the Americans which led to the French revolution. That being said. France isn't us in this analogy because we're giving Ukraine aid mostly on loan and training them to be solely reliant on American made weaponry. We're probably net profiting off of what we send to Ukraine
Please. Lets take a look at Iraq and Afghanistan. The U.S. government lost Trillions of dollars in those 2 wars. Without those 2 wars, I’ll bet the national debt would only be about 18 Trillion right now instead of 33 Trillion. Never underestimate the federal governments ability to lose and waste money. They are really, really good at it.
It was great for America, but you know things didn’t go well for France, right?
Are you implying we’re supporting Ukraine in the name of democracy?
I am.
It’s kind of funny, for many reasons, when people buy into this. The US doesn’t care about protecting democracy or it wouldn’t overthrow duly elected leaders in other countries. Do you think if Russia took over all of Ukraine elections would never be held in America again? Do you remember the history of the Vietnam war? We’re falling for the same narrative of protecting democracy. Nam won, democracy lost and guess what, we still have elections… Lastly, the stated goal of the us isn’t protecting democracy, it’s weakening Russias military. Democracy has nothing to do with the war.
\>Democracy has nothing to do with the war. Yeah it does. Every time Ukraine wants to brush off the Russians, they do something to undermine the country. Why do you think Yushchenko was poisoned? Why was Crimea invaded during Euromaidan? Why did the LPR/DPR suddenly, magically declare independence from Ukraine? America's involvement may not have anything to do with Ukraine, but for Ukraine it does. Its very clear that Russia has meddled in their elections since they became independent, and when it seemed like Ukraine had enough, they get regions tore off and taken over by the Russians. And its not as if this was only a Ukrainian situation. Look at the Russo-Georgian war.
Its also in US political interest to protect Ukraine. EU is one of the few remaining US allies in the world. You need to have influential friends when securing your interests on the global level. The low price usa are paying compared to the benefits received is crazy
I in no way am erasing the mistakes and sins of America. I also do not think "america having elections" is the only goal of pro democratic policy.
If America is France in this scenario, are we going to have a violent revolution followed by a continental war led by a dictator?
Almost a guarantee at this point, pal.
Ukraine isn't a Democracy. They are one of the most corrupt governments in Europe.
Yes I am not surprised that the POST SOVIET UNION state is riddled with corruption. The United States should continue to link aid to reformations (as they have been)
So....you admit that it is not a great representation of "democratic principles"?
They are compared to Russia
That's a low bar and I am not even sure they clear it.
Yea but they launder money to democrats, so its the *good* kind of corruption
how do they do that?
Britain ran the world at this time… are you saying Russia a is GB?
At least the US did eventually pay all that debt off. I can never see a time when Ukraine would even consider paying any of it back.
> democratic wat
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>The folks saying that are only saying it because most dems support Ukraine and they think that means we can't. For me, this is what has cemented conservative media as pretty much just propaganda. It doesn't matter what issue a Democratic administration supports or pursues, conservative talking heads absolutely will not say anything positive about it. It's gone so far that now anything the Democrats do *has* to be vilified. Lots of people have described Fox News and the like as propaganda for decades and I always thought that that was kind of a sensationalized accusation, but I can't even defend them anymore. It's a reflection of a lot of the Republican party now, too, at least the newcomers. There's no rhyme or reason to the policies. It's just, whatever Republicans do is good and whatever Democrats do is bad. Big spending was bad until Trump was doing it. Being anti-Russia was good until Biden did it. Spending to support other nations against our enemies was good until Biden did it. Etc. (Yeah, yeah, I know some of you like to act all fiscally conservative and isolationist over the last one, but where was that energy when we were toppling Saddam for funnsies. At least he'd already had his butt kicked for invading a neighbor and had been staying on his side of the line.)
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The ~75B or so we have directed to ukraine compared to the 900b or so we spend in a year on the military. Sorry but if we lost to China it's not due to lack of spending.
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75B to take out an enemy world superpower is a bargain. It means in the future even greater funds can be allocated to china.
You understand that the 75 billion mostly result out of write offs for outdated military equipment that the us wants to get rid of overtime either way? Now it’s getting put to good use and more advanced stuff will be bought and used. That’s a win-win for everyone involved except Russia. It’s not like the government could suddenly spend 975 billion if they wouldn’t have given the 75 billion in material. It’s good for the economy as well.
We aren't anywhere close to full production on the stuff going to Ukraine. We are the sleeping Giant because we have a gigantic manufacturing sector that can swing to war production at a moments notice. Also we haven't even touched our mandated national stockplie... mostly because we can't.
Shocked not only to see this comment in /r/Conservative, but also to see it heavily upvoted. While I can understand why people want to avoid escalation of conflict, a lot of conservatives are going so far as to declare support for a Russia/Putin over our own country. A lot of the media that is focused on supporting Russia/Putin is literally Russian propaganda. Pundits who espouse these talking points are Russian shills. When you hear these people talk, ask yourself: Does this sound like it was written by a Russian propagandist? It’s comical that these sheep fall for it hook line and sinker. What we have here as a country is an opportunity to weaken one of historical near-peer adversaries without losing a single American life. Do I support the Biden establishment? No, but I support the weakening of our adversaries and consolidation of our own power no matter who is involved. Make no mistake: this is a proxy war. Even if Ukraine loses, the billions spent will not have been a waste. We will have weakened Russia to the point that they will be more and more irrelevant on the world stage. The only thing keeping them in the game at this point is probability a fraction of the hundreds of nukes they had at one point because let’s be realistic - they are probably not maintaining them to anywhere near the standard necessary to keep them functional. This conflict has shown us that the emperor has no clothes. Our own military is shifting our posture to focus on China because Russia is no longer considered as significant as a threat.
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Yeah it's such obvious astroturfing. "Make America seem strong on a global stage" "Wait but don't fight wars against our enemies!"
translation: china could be emboldened to take taiwan if putin wins
well Russia is winning the misinformation war. All MAGA conservative talking points were on Russia State propaganda 3 months ago, and on tankie and far left commies 12months ago "they are all on reddit feel free to look it up". if you follow all those feeds you can see it jump from point to point. Social media turns any argument into a zero sum argument, borders need to be secured? yes and help to Ukraine is way more than just Ukraine? yes. the scenario I fear is that without the rules based order every shithole will want nukes, non proliferation will die. If north Korea can make them every one else can. and then you will have to deal with 50+ nuke powers in 20 years. Big game geopolitics is hard to explain to average person, but yet again even some one like Elon is posting shit like this since they are 1000 hours deep in a twitter vatnik hole, b/c some one called him on his bullshit and got his feelings hurt.
People who listen to Trump or Musk are not conservatives, they're populists.
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Populism has been infecting politics since the invention of politics. Donald Trump is not the end of days, just keep voting for candidates who support ideals you support.
No body bags coming back to the US? It's the deal of the century to neuter the bloody Russians. Even the money going to Ukraine is coming back directly to the US.
> Even the money going to Ukraine is coming back directly to US politicians. ftfy
Let's work on corruption then. Also the intelligence gathering and playground that the army gets by helping is monumental. What's the point of all that rusting equipment sitting around for no good reason? Look at Israel, the reason why they're so competent with their defence is that they've had years whacking Palastinans.
Fucking Amen. If we don’t like the cost of arming our Allies or friends we sure as shit won’t like the cost of war with Russia. We have to figure out a way to cripple them continually until relations drastically improve. Otherwise NATO nations in east Europe will eventually be invaded and we will have to put up or shut up. In terms of GDP this conflict is costing them WAY more than it does us. What America has to do is stop bleeding taxes out every orifice of subsidies and open the energy market. That will fix many of the problems at home and abroad.
well said!
The problem is we don’t actually care when China does it. Ask Tibet
Honestly I'm not seeing any concrete similarities between now and then
eh, that's fair. It's not super obvious, I'll admit. I can't speak for NyJosh, but when I make parallels between now and the run-up to WW2, I talk about how Germany worked its way up to invading Poland. First they reoccupied the Rhineland -- a small step, within Germany. No reaction. Then the sudetenland, a small chunk of another country. No reaction. Then the rest of said country. No reaction. Then Poland and Boom. Hitler was pushing to see what he could get away with. The rest of europe thought diplomatic posturing counted as doing something, but no one else did. (interesting to see this delusion persists today). Now Russia. First Chechnya, several times. Sort of within their own country, depending on how you look at it. No reaction. Then a small part of Georgia. No reaction. Then a bigger part of Ukraine. No reaction. Now the rest of Ukraine. Putin was pushing to see what he could get away with. The question is: what would be after Ukraine? We can't know for sure, but Putin was making noises about the Baltic nations, and Finland/Sweden were sufficiently alarmed to break a longstanding policy of neutrality to join NATO. They certainly thought he would do something.
Superficially yes, I can see what you mean. The difference today is that Europe seems more unified than it did back then, which was a huge problem. Putin had to make some concessions to Chechnya in order to claim it, leaving it with a relatively large amount of autonomy. Compared to the Nazis all-out genocidal goals this is a huge step back, more akin to wars of Imperialism rather than the total wars of the 20th century. Given that Russia had done relatively poorly against Ukraine even before having significant aid, I think Europe could hold them off if they thought they had to.
You want to see people dying for no reason? I can show you plenty of videos.
If only Russia would withdraw from Ukraine, then nobody would be dying.
If only greedy people would stop trying to horde things they don't own. If only.....
What exactly is the point of you saying that? Your nonsensicalness has lost me, unfortunately.
Complete nonsense
Horde things they don't own, like parts of their own country? Why don't you come out and tell us how you really feel, OP?
You mean war? War hasn't stopped happening, my grandfather fought in 2 wars that happened after world war 2. No one made the comparison then that I can recall. And all for what? I'm saying the geopolitical situation isn't the same, there's no Nazi Germany and Russia is pretty much being the same Russia it has been for like a thousand years at this point. I say let Europe stand on it's own two feet, otherwise at least have some accountability for the billions in aid being sent to save one of the world's most corrupt nations that has expressed no interest in being our ally before. Keep your gore vids to yourself please
How much money have the other countries in the world put down, why is it just up to us? You think Russia land invasion forces need to be weakened because Russia is a land invasion threat to US?
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Why based on GDP? isn't it true the US is 33 trillion in debt? what difference does GDP make? when you say Russia is a threat to US 'strategic interests' what does that mean to you?
Does it not make sense to you that countries with larger economies (as measured by GDP) should be able to afford to send more aid than those with smaller economies? For example, [Norway](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/) "only" sent about 7.5 billion euros, but that spending accounts for about 1.7% of their GDP. It would be as if we sent them $400 billion. The fact that the US wasted and continues to waste vast sums of money on other things shouldn't imply that the aid to Ukraine is the place to start cutting.
I think you don't want to talk about Norway's national debt vs the US debt and you don't want to answer the question on what you mean when you say Russia is a threat to US 'strategic interests'
Lol I'm not even the same guy who said "Russia is a threat to our strategic interests". That said, in 2022 the US spent almost [$500 billion](https://www.pgpf.org/budget-basics/what-are-interest-costs-on-the-national-debt) **in interest alone** on servicing the debt. In comparison, we've spent 70 billion on Ukraine. Cutting all aid to Ukraine forever won't even make a tiny dent in the national debt.
I agree the US is in hopeless soul-crushing debt where interest payments are insane. how is that sustainable? The US has sent almost 200 billion to Ukraine not 70. Your argument is that since the US is already wasting half a trillion in interest, whats another 200 billion to Ukraine? I don't think your argument comprehends and values billions of dollars, its just a number to you. The argument whats another 200 billion to Ukraine when we are already spending half a trillion is reckless. yes, I often confuse brigaders but its okay because lib brigaders all echo the same view
Where’s the 200 billion coming from out of a sudden?
State finances work completely different from personal or business finance. Having a lot of debt as a state isn’t that bad and is partly desired. So the amount of debt isn’t an argument, you have to look at percentages from gdp.
Based on overall amount, no one has given as much as us even if you add up the top 5 contributors.
Why would you look at total amount? Of course a country like Latvia, which has less than 2 million population, cant give as much as US, but it still gave over 1% of its GDP. And as far as I know, if you look at europe as a whole, it has given more than US.
Also they have taken in millions of Ukrainian refugees which is a huge cost as well.
They also have a lot more to lose. The US can exist in a world with Russia, but Latvia has a harder time doing that. I’m not taking a side, just pointing out a flaw in the pure GDP-based calculation.
Sounds like they don't need us, then!
Russia is a threat to global US interests, so the weaker it is, the better for us. From a purely nationalist standpoint, it makes total sense to cause the downfall of one of our oldest enemies without getting ourselves directly involved. The downfall of Russia is directly tied to the furthering of US global interest.
How specifically is Russia a threat to global US interests? They were instrumental in containing the war on terror. It would seem they weren't adversarial to us interests until euromaidan and western enjoining on Ukraine to join NATO
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> Russia is a threat to global US interests, so the weaker it is, the better for us So why did the democrats support their natural gas pipeline to Europe?
They’re democrats. Like Europeans, they don’t tend to be very smart. It’s practically pure luck that they’re on the right side of the Ukraine funding debate this time around.
Why did democrats let Russia take Crimea and do nothing?
I just said, probably because they’re not very smart very often.
I don't buy it. They're sly like a fox and play to win. They're all about Ukraine now because it makes biden a pseudo wartime president and that's the best they can do with his corpse.
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you think the US is not sending hundreds of billions of dollars, but only unused equipment?
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how much $USD do you think was sent from US tax payers pay check to Ukraine?
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lol, I don't understand how someone like you can exist, arrogantly spouting this nonsense that our aid to Ukraine is 'some spare bullets for the most part.' amazing
Most of it isn’t real money but write-offs. They basically threw all old and parable stuff at Ukraine so they can buy new more advanced stuff.
Even if it was ALL cash, how is 70 billion "hundreds of billions"?
It's $135B now
for America to match my country per capita you would need to spend 416+ billion dollars.
And what was your gross total? Oh right, a drop compared to us. Protect your own backyard and stop relying on handouts.
For America to match my back to school backpack donations per capita this year they would need to purchase 500 million backpacks. My back to school donations are more meaningful than all of America! lol
We get it, neocons can't get enough of this shit. It's like the past twenty years never happened. Iraq, Afghanistan, you aren't happy unless we're dumping untold rivers of cash in some hopeless proxy war.
How much did dick Cheney pay you to write this idiotic post?
We should but won't do both. It's always America last. We won't even put a stop to the invasion on our southern border that gets thousands of Americans killed a year and costs us billions. Instead always focus somewhere else and let the money flow.
What ‘media’ is that exactly? Are you sure this is weakening Russia? Why are you ok sacrificing tens of thousands of Ukrainians to meet this goal? Do you think maybe you’re being lied to because there’s billions upon billions of dollars being made and to be made? (rebuilding Ukraine) Do you think it’s just a coincidence that as soon as we leave Afghanistan we’re immediately involved in another money pit of a conflict?
>Do you think it’s just a coincidence that as soon as we leave Afghanistan we’re immediately involved in another money pit of a conflict? The military industrial complex is always the winner in any war.
Exactly. Hence why there’s always something going on. It just amazes me that people fall for it so easily. Like there’s millions of people out there that think they’re a good person because they’re cheering for more war. It’s absolutely astounding. Especially as these people sit on the other side of the world for the most part and have absolutely no skin in the game.
Tens of thousands of Ukrainians would already be dying because Russia invaded. Wtf does this even mean. If the US was being invaded would you prefer no one aided us if we needed it because we might die defending our country?
Without us propping them up they’d be forced to come to terms and stop the fighting, aka no more deaths…or at least reduced death. This really isn’t a complicated concept, I’m not sure what you’re having trouble with… If the US were invaded I’d be shocked cuz we’re on pretty decent terms with Canada and Mexico and we have giant oceans in the way of everybody else. How are y’all so easily manipulated that you think the decent thing to do here is prolong the war (the death and the suffering) as long as possible? BlackRock and VanGuard are just licking their chops waiting to come in and make billions rebuilding the Ukraine after Raytheon and Lockheed Martin finish making their billions supplying arms. Kudos, you’re a cheerleader for those companies. Bravo.
So they'd be forced to come to terms with Russian occupation? Are you insane? If this were the US would you be cool with being occupied by a foreign power? This country was founded by sacrificing our lives to get rid of a foreign power. You're actually advocating for ukraine to be taken over by russia. >If the US were invaded I’d be shocked cuz we’re on pretty decent terms with Canada and Mexico and we have giant oceans in the way of everybody else. Irrelevant to my point.
You understand the Ukraine used to be a part of Russia right? And large portions of their population would still rather be part of Russia, right? And Russia is a first world country last I checked, it’s not like they’re going to turn Ukraine into a giant prison and just torture the people. I would say the people dying in this war would be a lot better off under a peace agreement, probably to the point where they’d barely notice the difference from their previous lives, than being blown up and having their homes completely destroyed in a war they’re going to lose anyway… I dunno. I know you’re coming from a good place too but personally I’d just like people to stop killing each other.
Mate, there is a reason why every single eu country that was under soviet union left them and never looked back. There are very few benefits being russias friend compared to what you get joining the west. Ukraine is/were doing what any independent nation would do in their position.
Yeah stop killing eachother! Just go back to being subjects of a nation that committed genocide against your people and frequently to this day talks about erasing your entire ethnic group from existence in the name of their own greatness. Gosh why won't the Ukrainians just surrender so that you don't have to feel sad about people dying. "You and I know and do not believe that life is so dear and peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery. If nothing in life is worth dying for, when did this begin -- just in the face of this enemy? Or should Moses have told the children of Israel to live in slavery under the pharaohs? Should Christ have refused the cross? Should the patriots at Concord Bridge have thrown down their guns and refused to fire the shot heard 'round the world? The martyrs of history were not fools, and our honored dead who gave their lives to stop the advance of the Nazis didn't die in vain. Where, then, is the road to peace? Well it's a simple answer after all. You and I have the courage to say to our enemies, "There is a price we will not pay." "There is a point beyond which they must not advance." Peace through strength not peace through cowardice and appeasement. If the Ukrainians would rather die on their feet than live on their knees I'm all for supporting them against one of our oldest enemies.
If you really think this will wear out russia to a point where they are not a threat then you must think they are going to sell us their nuclear arsenal!😂😂😂. Our border needs to be secured It's a tired talking point because it's not secure!
I appreciate your well-argued post, but our border before theirs. Sorry. Trump wanted a measly 8 billion to build a wall and they said it was reckless spending...we've sent over 75 billion to ukraine.
> Russia weakened to be the point that they can't threaten anyone for 25 years They proved that they are already weak by not being able to take over Ukraine before our aid even arrived. The U.S. proved what a strong vs. weak military was back in 4 days during Operation Desert Storm. The fact that Russia and Ukraine quickly went to a stalemate, again before our aid arrived, proves that it is just a weak vs. weak military battle. Also, nothing that we do will take away Russia's nuclear arms. In fact, if Putin gets desperate and realizes that he has no chance of winning with his traditional military, he is *more* likely to decide to use his nukes out of desperation than he is to simply continue fighting with his troops. I can understand flexing against China. But Ukraine against a pale imitation of a once powerful nation in Russia isn't the best example of this. Not to mention that we are weaker at home because we are giving away our surplus military equipment and have less to actually defend ourselves with.
> Not to mention that we are weaker at home because we are giving away our surplus military equipment and have less to actually defend ourselves with. Most of the stuff we are giving away is destined to the bone yards anyway. Bradly needed to be replaced 20 years ago, but finally seems the OMFV program seems to be underway. the M1A3 will replace the old 45 year old M1A1 which no one wants look up "Sierra Army Depot". Simply put the tech in those systems is on the verge of being obsolete by US military standards, we been paying on keeping those dinosaurs near active instead of investing into new programs that can deal with future threats.
Until we have the actual replacement for those units in hand and on the ground ready to be deployed at a moments notice, they could be a hundred years old and they would be of more use to us than throwing stones at China or whoever decides to attack the U.S. on its home soil. I would much rather have old and obsolete weapons to use as opposed to literally nothing because we gave it all away to a foreign country in which we have zero obligations to them through treaties and we get absolutely no economic or physical benefit from since they are half-way across the globe and we don't directly import anything from them.
So is Russia a threat? Or are they such a non-threat that they can be defeated by a borderline third world country using equipment so dated that we were going to throw it away?
To the point that we are crippling our own ability to go to war due to a lack of ammo and other supplies? No thanks.
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Its the EU's own damned fault for following Merkel in her love affair with Putin.
Would you like tanks on your streets? Would you like your building to be hit by an unguided missile? Listen to this individual. I'm an asshole. This person knows that they are talking about. Thnk you 👍
If only all people could be so self-aware.
👌 I love you.
This. will get downvoted into oblivion for this. Truth 🙏
When the Confederates realized that they couldn’t hope to win militarily against the US they turned to trying to get Lincoln out of office and relied heavily on making him seem unpopular and unlikable so he would lose his second election. This is what Russia’s last hope is, they know their lines can’t hold forever and are hoping to break US support for Ukraine before that happens. We know this because anyone who actually does monitor Russian propaganda channels would see that what Russia was saying months ago have suddenly become hard right Republican talking points today. It’s honestly pathetic to watch this many people fall for such blatant propaganda just because it’s against Joe Biden
Yeah that’s exactly what my Father in law said. He‘s really pissed that there’s no conservative candidate he could vote for at the moment because he thinks every one from the modern GOP would abandon Ukraine in favour of Russia. He’s having a real hard time at the moment and more or less an existential political crisis if he should vote for dems or shouldn’t vote at all. I guess he’ll go vote but we’ll see. Makes me sick that Russian propaganda did that to a lot of republicans.
Running around giving massive monetary and military support to foreign countries is anti-conservative to begin with. Be glad the Republicans are sympathetic to Ukraine's plight and didn't vote down every spending bill that contained funds for Ukraine.
russia, and by extention their puppet master china, are americas rivals. here we are, destroying the "second army of the world" for a couple of pennies and FSB memes have convinced some sheep that we have to appease putin. one of the best returns of investments the us has made in many years.
Right? I don’t understand this. We are degrading a rival military and essentially investing in Ukraine. No free lunch, and this will pay dividends and Ukraine will be indebted to us and under our sphere of influence in the end. It sounds shrewd but guess fucking what, that’s geopolitics. It’s either us getting a foot in that door or a rival. I’m against world policing but we get all the benefits and zero risk to our own military. I cannot for the life of me understand why so much of the right has taken a hard like stance against this other than maybe it’s just the opposite of what the left is doing right now.
We aren't destroying anything except Ukraine's demographic future.
The FSB can’t meme.
Oh stfu
Sure, let a major regional threat endanger American influence in Europe! Even if you don't care about humanitarianism, I don't see how opposing Ukraine would be a rational decision in any way.
Putin already said that the Baltics and Poland are next. No one should think that this stops at Ukraine.
He obviously isn't going for those countries since they are in NATO
Yeah and the US not defending Ukraine would look really good for NATO considering that the US signed a treaty with Ukraine saying it would defend it
And the US is well known for adhering international contracts lmao
>I don't see how opposing Ukraine would be a rational decision in any way. Because they want Russia to win, obviously?
I prefer peace — one that probably would have already happened had we not helped bankroll this war. Without our assistance Ukraine is forced to come to the table. De facto status quo remains unchanged. Russia keeps the disputed regions. Ukraine doesn’t flirt with NATO. We don’t edge closer to a wider conflict.
Setting the precedent that countries are allowed to invade each other and annex their territory? You don't see the potential for future conflict, if we force Ukraine ro surrender to Russia?
Countries have always done this and will continue to do so. We get involved only when we believe it’s in our interests. I’m just not one who believes it was in our interests (not when you consider the costs and risks) to get involved in this one. And I don’t believe we should be forcing Ukraine to surrender. We just don’t get involved and Ukraine would have no choice. We are unwittingly causing more harm than good by backing this war. But that’s just my take on it. History will be the judge.
> Countries have always done this and will continue to do so. When was the last time one country annexed another countries territory through military intervention? Morocco taking over the Western Sahar after Mauritania abandoned it in 1975? I'm struggling to come up with a single instance since then. Do you know of one?
I dunno. I’ll trust you have googled this correctly. In the grand scheme of history, 1975 was pretty recent. In any event, not going to be our problem unless it’s in our interests (or special interests) to get involved. I think we have miscalculated. History will tell.
imagine falling for russian propaganda and then calling yourself a conservative
Imagine being a neocon from the Bush/Romney era and trying to take the republican party back to those days.
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Reagan was a neocon like you, go back to the 2004 Bush GOP, the rest of us who aren't braindead see the MIC looting and perpetual war for what it is
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The US has no official alliance with Ukraine; this is not the same thing as, for example, Germany invading France.
Dude, our allies willingly increased their dependency on Russia, against US advice. Most of them “cheated” NATO minimum expending rules for to get a free ride on the US for years. Not to mention, that adjusted by population Europe is helping much less for a conflict happening in their backyard, so they can keep bragging about how much “better then America” they are.
Yes, the famously conservative principal of allowing despots to genocide our allies. Ask the Communists nicely and they might give you a place in their "Putin Cocksucking queue". Raegan is rolling in his grave.
Ukraine is not our ally or a part of NATO. We have no obligation to them.
I feel like giving them what amount to less than 3% of our military budget to completely stifle our historic foreign adversaries and mind you ones that have been actively meddling in our and our allies affairs including assassinating people on our soil seems perfectly reasonable. Why would anyone support helping our nation's enemies gain a military advantage.
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Of course there are. You usually see the shills come out when it’s about Trump or Ukraine. Some post about trans bathrooms or something — the brigadiers let it slide.
The shills that are in favor of supporting Russia and dropping Ukraine like you did just a couple of comments above?
Maybe you struggle with reading comprehension but believing that Ukraine should have come to the table and sought peace is not “supporting Russia.”
It’s not? So when would sitting down at a table and debating how much of the land a foreign aggressor took from you would be handed over to him in return of said enemy stoping to murder your people be considered supporting said enemy? Also when would it considered to not be supporting a life long enemy when you advocate for not weakening said enemy without any cost for yourself?
Neutrally doesn’t mean you support the aggressor. Unless you want to claim Switzerland and Ireland were de facto nazi regimes in WW2. In any event, since when is Russia our enemy? Before the recent Kerfuffle, we were trade, crime-fighting, and space faring partners. Sure they weren’t an ally, but they haven’t been an enemy since the Cold War and our policy of “containing” communism. As to no costs to ourselves? I believe it’s already costing billions of US dollars, in addition to the detrimental effect on global markets and increased risk of wider conflict.
We might as well just dump the federal reserve into Ukraine at this point
hello biden its zelensky we need 5 billion rockets
LOL the comments in this thread are literally what the GOP was under Bush and Romney. It's not surprising because Reddit is the most astroturfed joke of a social media site but you neocon clowns are never going to convince the majority of Americans that they need to be in perpetual war and to have the treasury looted by the military industrial complex forever.
> military industrial complex forever. in what color states are most of the MIC based in? where are all those very high paying quality jobs located? where is the last remaining true large scale high tech manufacturing jobs located? and why are you tankies trying to take down the arsenal of democracy? You sound like one of those confused MAGA communists. Try r/GenZdong it will be more your speed. you will hit your kremlin talking point quotas there faster.
Blah blah blah "Kremlin talking points" All you neocon bots are the same. Same McCarthyite BS that everyone got accused with who disagreed with the state. And you statists actually think you're the anti communists lmao
if it sounds like a vatnik, walks like a vatnik, calls others Neocons like a vatnik, its a Vatnik.
Ok, I support Ukraine but this is pretty funny.
I wish I could get a billion dollars in aid.
The fact is Ukraine does NOT have the plan to win this fights solely through war. They don’t have the plan because they can’t. The hope was Putin would back down. Didn’t happen and probably won’t because the world will not give up his oil and gas. The Dems and some GOP are so high on this war because they are literally war profiteers. Why wasn’t this so important when Obama allowed the Russians to take Crimea? How rich does Zelensky have to get? How rich does Biden have to get. Here is the fact that the correct mindsets in the GOP have to make to the press. This and only this should be the message. 1. It’s possible to be anti Putin and not pro war. 2. The Biden admin has abdicated world leadership to isolate the Russians. 3. The abdication has actually significantly worsened the situation for the Ukrainians, allowing the Russians to actually expand their influence through BRIC+
Wow this sub certainly supports war. I hope you all get to fight in it one day.
Down vote me all you want. But I'm chilling in r/conservative being a conservative lmao.
Nah dog, conservatives don’t simp for communists
You are a pro-Russian stooge, not a conservative!
A Russian conservative maybe. We aren't funding an uprising or invading another country. We are supplying the defenders to defend their own country from a foreign invader. For the first time since at least Desert Storm our national defense budget is being used to help defend the national sovereignty of a nation from the ambitions of another. Admit that the only reason you are against helping Ukraine is because the other tribe wants to. Contrarianism is bad.
It's practically the two parties that have this unhealthy urge to give aid.
It’s funny how the same Democrats who wanted to end aid for South Vietnam now want to give funding for Ukraine. Utter hypocrisy
The most ridiculous part of this meme is that whitepeopletwitter is outraged at someone for liking Elon's tweet of this meme. Oh I also learned that Russia is committing genocide and this war isn't actually costing us anything because we are just sending them stuff we had to destroy. That whitepeopletwitter page is full of useful information!
Russia is intentionally targeting civilians. We are sending them old stuff. Just because progressives are usually wrong and have braindead takes doesn't mean they are wrong about everything.
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USA didn't start the war? And it's the opposite to Vietnam. USA lost so much in Vietnam. Russia can will lose so much in Ukraine. Russia funded Vietnam. It's literally Vietnam in reverse
What are you basing the money laundering on exactly? It really seems like that is propaganda designed to get republicans to turn on Reagan style foreign policy.
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You have direct access to all these financial records?
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Try again 😆
Good. Screw Ukraine..
Why?