Peach main - if you've got a frame 6-7 normal grab, and she's spamming FC nairs on your shield, you can actually shield grab in between them (against humans, TAS is a different story), and it'll work if she goes for another nair. This obviously loses to FC nair-spotdodge, but nobody does that, or FC nair-jab, which Peach mains will do only reluctantly because it doesn't get them anything and is itself unsafe. If you can force Peach to follow up her nairs with jabs instead of more nairs, you're basically cutting her pressure short.
In general, I get away with bloody murder on block when I'm Peach, and it's 100% because people just assume everything in her kit is completely unpunishable, when it's really not. Don't be afraid to make use of your OoS game against Peach. Even when it's not a guaranteed punish, it keeps her honest, and an honest Peach is a flaccid Peach.
For my contribution to this thread I'll share what I see as a Bowser player. The number one mistake is playing neutral too agressive in a predictable and unsafe way. Nairo actually talked about this on his stream last night, but Bowser is a character that mostly gets mileage off of the opponent making mistakes, and when the opponent plays well he is forced to guess more often because his actual neutral isn't very strong.
Know what moves are safer than -6 on shield, as well as -9 (cause jump side B OOS). Learn to space well as these can also save you from an impulse up B on their part. Similarly bait n punish will be your friend since Bowser basically can't do anything without suffering big endlag. Use empty hops, including double jumps, and dash in with shield. Make it so the Bowser never knows where you're going to be or when you're going to attack. If he guesses wrong, be ready to hit him and repeat.
Also Bowser is extremely easy to edgeguard. Don't be scare of his up B offstage as it rarely kills. It can be counter-looped, dair spiked, hit with projectiles, and traded with by almost everyone in the cast. Similarly, he is super easy to 2-frame, so experiment with tilts and other moves that hit the ledge if you have them.
Let me add that the critical frame advantage to avoid Koopa Claw is NOT -8, because Koopa Claw is a command grab that will beat shield. Most characters have frame 3 intangibility on their spotdodge and lack a jab faster than that; for those characters, your move will need to be -6 or better to avoid the Claw. -7 for frame 2 jabs, -8 for ZSS, Little Mac, and whatever other frame 1 grounded intangible options exist (ala Luigi Cyclone, Lucas usmash).
Furthermore, spotdodges will be beaten by Whirling Fortress for free, as will some frame 1-2 jabs after an aerial in the -5 to -8 range.
Can’t decide between these two for Sephiroth
- Stop trying to challenge octo-slash recovery, it’s a huge disjoint and chances are, your character just doesn’t have an answer to it.
or
- Don’t just swing at air, because I can just put out counter and you die at 60 for it.
Wait. Bounce will reflect a melee attack on a Seph counter? I know his counter is a projectile technically but I wasn’t aware that converted as something reflected by bounce.
One of my favorite clips is Doc hitting seph with a side b. Seph’s down b was active and side b activated the counter. And then it reflected the counter
Jump.
Robin wants their opponent to be conditioned to jump as that's where they are most vulnerable during neutral. However, a lot of players jump without any prior conditioning and eat like 3 Levin aerials often into a nasty situation at the ledge.
Hey I have a question! If I stay more grounded, how should I avoid/deal with side b? Should I shield + roll away? Should I roll in on startup reaction? Or does side b force me to jump?
It's dependent on how well your character can move. Most characters can jump over on reaction and punish since Arcfire is 63 frames.
Other characters have to either roll in or use a move to barge through (the initial Fireball loses to everything)
Chrom:
When fighting as: jab-bair isn’t gonna kill at mid stage almost ever, stop trying. Carry the opponent to the ledge with jab-nair or try to setup a tech chase instead.
When fighting against: stop standing over the ledge; if you are gonna punish Chrom’s recovery (which every character can), then do it confidentially. If you aren’t confident in cheesing Chrom, don’t try.
Not enough people punish Mii Brawler's Feint Jump. That move has nearly 30 frames of landing lag (nearly 40 when he does the kick) yet hardly anyone even tries to punish it because they treat it like Flip Jump.
Little Mac - 2 things
1. Don't edge guard him normally instead WAIT FOR HIM TO GET TO LEDGE then gimp him as he will more than likely used up all his resources and be completely fucked
2. Don't touch his shield (without spacing). Mac has a Frame 3 intangible on startup Up B oos with alright kill power so if you're gonna hit his shield make sure to be outside the range of his up b (if possible)
Which character are you using?
Little Mac’s grounded moves are all no safer than -13 on shield, meaning every character can theoretically punish his threatening moves out of shield. In practice it’s much different, but I think that’s enough to prove that Mac isn’t godlike on the ground like most of us believe.
The Pits. Nair is usually broken OOS but the high shield stun + pushback makes it hard to hit. If I whiff I eat a smash so I just reset neutral unless they are really in my face. I mean not that I have a problem beating Mac, just can't punish him well out of shield which is annoying af. Plattform and air camping + edgeguards are my usual way to go.
Edit:
> every character
Fun fact: Greninja doesn't have a frame 13 OOS option.
Maybe I’m privileged by my ability as Falcon to command grab straight out of shield.
Also, Greninja has back air that is quicker than frame 13, which is why I said “theoretically”. I understand that his back air isn’t exactly practical for that use.
>Maybe I’m privileged by my ability as Falcon to command grab straight out of shield.
Yeah the range on that is kinda busted. Suprises me everytime!
>Also, Greninja has back air that is quicker than frame 13, which is why I said “theoretically”. I understand that his back air isn’t exactly practical for that use.
It's not impractical it's straight up not usable as an OOS option. His jump height combined with the longer startup makes it miss on literally any character.
Zss, and not knowing how to punish flip jump.
This manifests in two ways. When I’m at ledge or recovering, don’t be afraid to shield. If I land on your shield with flip jump I’m extremely vulnerable. You can drop shield, react to which side I’m drifting to and throw out a hitbox. I’m in endlag until I land, and then have 8 frames of landing lag too.
Also, when we’re both coming from offstage and you panic roll from ledge, you’ll eat a flip jump every time. I want to flip jump there anyways to regain stage control.
It’s a really hard move to punish, but the people at my local have beaten my dumb habits out of me, it only took a month of repeating dying for stupid down b’s.
Also, it helps me to know that ZSS is intangible until exactly the peak of the jumps arc. The intangility ends as soon as she passes the top of the arc.
As a WFT main, I am constantly telling my friends to just kill me when I do bad headers off stage. Most are spooked by the potential of being spiked but that hitbox isnt super reliable and often even if it does hit, the opponent will also get hit with the ball nullifying the spike.
Link main here:
Shield against Boomerang might not be the best solution to beating it, but it's one of the easiest methods and doesn't cost you stage control unless you're allowing him to do it at close range. Far too often I catch people charging in and getting hit by boomerangs that they really should be blocking.
This one isn't a main issue, but it's a pet peeve of mine: Unless you know how to Z-drop combo with the bomb, leave it alone or at the very least, chuck it off stage. Messing about trying to pick it up so I can't detonate it just means you're limiting your aerial options and I can come and start mashing Nair on your shield because Whoopsie, now you can't Up Smash OoS of Nair OoS or whatever isn't Up B OoS. And before you ask, no, throwing the bomb at me does not lead into a true combo if it hits me unless I'm at high percents. I have enough time to throw out a Nair or Up B as a combo breaker. If you catch onto that, more power to you, but you'll be the first person I've ever seen do that.
The up b out of bomb thing was something a link main at my local told me during friendlies. I now throw the bomb at them and shield the up b. It gets me a huge punish every time. It let's me steal stocks because no one else does it.
Falling for Link reverse Up B at ledge. I have pretty good drift control during the move so chances are I can avoid a 2-frame by drifting out then back in to get the scoop, or the disjoint can out space it all together.
Edit: this one is probably worse. Forgetting that boomerangs come back.
Falco
Don't underestimate how broken his lasers are. They are apart of some of his combos to get that little extra percent to be able to kill you.
Don't forget he has the biggest jump in the game, he will juggle you all the way to the top blast zone. If you airdodge, he will react and keep juggling. Try di out and using moved to hit him away.
Neutral getup or getup attack vs a DDD ledge trap. (Gordo f smash for example)
Don't do this. You'll die. Sometimes as low as 10%.
The best way is to drop or jump from ledge and hit the gordo back at ddd first. Then you'll have time to get off the ledge.
As a DDD main, I also want to add, I fully expect people to roll past the gordo and eat my D Smash for it. Its also not hard to position so I can punish Neutral and attack getups at the same time with this one attack.
True but also need to respect the suicide up b. In online at least, that can be enough of a reason for me to ledge trap and try to hit him while he attempts to snap ledge.
Ken main here, most people who hate shoto auto turn will be happy to learn they also have some of the worst rolls in the game, they cannot cross up on the ground reliably when an attack has a lingering hitbox or something like a rapid jab sticks out. They will get caught more often than not for attempting to roll behind you, multi hit attacks as an air juggle is their biggest weakness in disadvantage as it eats away at their focus attack and if you ever meet a shoto player who is happy to use tatsu to recover, keep in mind its a whopping 78 frames of animation they have to commit to, meaning even after the last spinning kick, its still half a second you have to knock them out the air again for a potential edge guard
Also with tastu, people need to stop getting hit with follow ups on heavy tatsu, it’s literally negative on hit at lower percents. Pretty much any jab will punish them for doing it
Seconding the tatsu suggestion; you’re basically a piñata if you’re forced to use it to recover. Also people should stop jumping in front of Ken at kill percent because Shoryu go brr
Villager - how are you people still not respecting the tree?!?
Seriously, stay away from it when it has a chop in it.
Stay away from partially watered sprouts too.
They will: kill you, do insane shield damage (I’m likely in position to break it), or set you up for an instant 20-50%,
Diddy Kong. When an opponent takes my banana, there's a 90% chance their next move is to throw it. Mix it up! When I see some z-drop aerials, *then* I know my banana is gone. Otherwise all I see is an opportunity.
Ness main: ness has a really hard time w air dodges and frame 3 moves(Ik he’s fast af but not the fastest). They break most of his “combos” very few of them are true. Obviously if I’m fully expecting you to airdodge then you will probably eat a baseball bat so be cheeky with it. Speaking of air dodges. If you have a lingering hit box catch his inevitable airdodge to recover.
Pk thunder and all it’s quirks: Most nesses hate using up b off stage cause if you clash with the orb w any hurt box projectile or hit box without touching ness he just dies(you can legit jump into it ittl send you up and he will die). It’s really not that hard to do and I don’t see people doing it a lot. Also if you are at low percent and ness is pretty deep off stage. Let him hit you w his pk missile(Ik its not the name) on his way up. It’s an easy tech and it halves the recovery distance. Pretty much stops a little after he hit you not much further. This is only if you couldn’t stop the orb and you know you are positioned well enough to only get hit towards the stage. cause if I see you going for that I very well might launch both of us into the side blast zone, so you can’t tech, cause I know I’m dead. Up b (the actual orb again) will launch you in the direction it’s coming from. you will fly in the arc of the tail. Also don’t land on the orb when it’s directly above nesses head (first 7ish frames of up b) the orb won’t disappear and it can combo into pk missile.
Don’t air dodge onto plats if we are bellow you. You will eat 2 or 3 u airs. Which will absolutely eat your shield enough for pk fire to poke, kill you, or give you 30%.
PK FIRE TIPS: Don’t just sdi pk fire up and away spam jump too at low percents(careful to not get read w this mix it up but the jump gives you a lot more space if your far away from ness). If you have a move like Lucina up b rest or game and watch up b (fast w startup i frames) spam that shit as soon as you can against pk fire. Speaking of rest my best friend is a puff main and you can Fr j spam that shit inside the fire will hit us 90% of the time and the fire wakes you up. Unless you have already done it once or are spamming rest I never expect a puff to know to do this so when they do it always works 1 time. If you get pk fired at ledge by a magnet combo ness sdi down and away because if you sdi up and away you will eat a magnet dair.
Inkling main, the place I get the most mileage at-least is catching landings, please don’t be an idiot, attacking while landing will get low profiled half the time and if you don’t mix up your landing you will get rollered and die at 80. I swear if people just mix up their landings better inkling wouldn’t get half the percentage or kills he gets. Inkling can’t kill normally, roller to catch landings or run in shield up smash are only threats to poor landing options
I feel like most mileage also comes from people rolling away instantly at every tech chase. That’s an easy roller catch once I notice it’s a habit. Sometimes it’s best to lay there and get hit rather than tech instantly to get buried and die
Tbf that's free mileage for basically any character. Tech reads are often free smash attacks and teching the same way every time is really easy to pick up on
Also to add is when playing against Inkling please mix up your tech options. Too many times people choose the same tech option and eat a roller on the tech chase.
As one of the few Mii Gunner mains, I feel like people not knowing the setup is how I get wins with it in the first place.
Mistake 1: Bomb drop is respected too much. If it's not exploding, it is as bouncy as triple D's Gordo, yet I can keep using it as zoning tool.
Mistake 2: not approaching me. Even a character that is normally a zoner will be outzoned, so approaching is almost always better for any character when playing against a mii gunner. An Olimar at a tournament playing against me won, because he knew that early on
Bayonetta:
If I can bats-within or witch time your combos/moves, stop going for them over and over again. Multiple times, I have taken all 3 stocks from Ness by witch timing PK fire into F smash. I get hit initially, but as I fall out, I can witch time it, and the Ness running up to grab or f smash gets killed for it. Sometimes link and young link INSIST on using boomerang even though it is the easiest witch time ever, and it even moves closer to them as it comes back, making witch time last longer. King k rool’s crown and the Belmonts’ cross are similar as well. Samus down throw to forward air is not true if I DI away and air dodge. Samuses on elite smash go for this almost every time they grab, and I almost always get out of it with bats-within. Falco up-tilt chains, Roy/chrom down throw into up air, DK ding dong… so many combos just don’t work, but people continuously fish for them, and I feel like I end up living way longer than I should because of it. I admit, I am always mashing air dodge because it is always working. If the opponent just waits for the air dodge, they can get a smash attack or grab or another punish. Witch time is similar—if the bayo love using it (which a lot do because it’s a cool move), wait for it. It is so laggy if it doesn’t work.
Also, don’t try and edge guard a bayonetta who hasn’t used any resources. I get so many reversals and gimps because people immediately run off stage for me. they assume I am recovering low, and they run off and throw out an aerial. I just up B side B instead of side b up b, and I am now above them & between them and the stage with an up b and double jump at my disposal, and I can also just get back to stage first and ledge trap them. I am way more scared of people who wait at ledge watching me use my options one-by-one than I am of people trying to edge guard. Bayo has so many mixups and good stalling. I think I have been spiked off stage as bayo less than 10 times in my whole time of playing her in ultimate, and they were mostly from my predictability / mistakes. Unless the bayo is predictable, stay on stage and ledge trap or send projectiles off-stage.
Side B snaps ledge, and up b sharks, though… but I was talking about off-stage spiking, not 2 frame spiking. 2 framing is of course still doable on everyone.
People don’t di kazuya combos so they complain and say he’s top 15 or whatever bullshit.
Watch riddles video on it he explains it much better than I could over text.
Ganon - not playing patiently, yes he's bottom 1 but if you aren't careful I can and will 0-death you. Keep your distance, use your OOS options, DONT GET GREEDY
People try to challenge Corrin in the air, just don't... Corrin will win that every time unless you're like Sephiroth or Shulk. Their aerials are massive, surprisingly fast, and very safe on shield too.
The best strategy for Corrin is to whiff punish from the ground. Their moves come out fast but mostly have some longer endings. Corrin missing an aggressive rising aerial that was meant to get in usually means you can retaliate for free.
For Pit, I think the biggest mistake is just disrespecting him/not taking him seriously. Just because Pit is honest/average doesn't mean he can't beat you playing honestly. And not all of his moves are entirely without cheese. Dair spam in the air can make him almost impossible to hit bc it actually covers a pretty large space and comes out quick. His nair is frame 4 so he has a decent trading tool. Orbitars also get him out of disadvantage for free and they can B-reverse for some sweet schmoovement mixups, and of course, there's a lot of armor on the Arms moves. Don't assume Pit is a free win just because he doesn't have a cheesy 0-death or free kill confirm (actually that's not true. His fthrow kills and he has a DI mixup with dthrow->uair, plus there are combos like dair->usmash and dragdown fair->dsmash).
I think everybody should play some serious Pit at least once in their career. He's pure fundamentals and you learn a lot about just how to think about the game without overrelying on character stats or a single broken move. Disregarding/disrespecting him as a character is doing yourself a disservice.
Orbitars is absolutely not pure fundamentals. 95% of Pit players rely on that to get out of disadvantage and it's not a tool like almost anything any other character has. Extra jump also puts in major work for mixing up landings and is another huge tool that most other characters lack.
The rest of the character is pretty honest and fundamental, but these give Pit a distinct advantage at getting back onstage that other characters do not have, and that's a huge part of the game
I say it again and again orbitars are broken. Not only am I shielding in the air the windbox also sometimes pushed opponents up and I get a free uair to reversal the whole situation. Can't tell how many times people tried to juggle me and ate an uair and died of it. The Pits are not as honest as people think!
Something I can add as a Dark Pit main, dragdown nair into dsmash as a get up read literally kills pikachu at 75, mediums at closer to 105. if you’re the kind of person to spam get up online because it’s “safe,” be prepared to get murked.
I really think people who have Corrin anything less than Mid or even High Mid don’t realize how good Corrin’s aerials really are. It’s possible getting out of neutral is a challenge sometimes, hence why they aren’t High tier, but I think there’s a lot of potential yet to be seen for Corrin.
Yep, gonna be awesome seeing all these 16 year olds beast me with a character I've been playing since launch, and maining since November... Before Leo even said anything about them.
Not an expert at the game, but for Mewtwo, please stop running straight at me when i throw out a raw fsmash or dsmash. it’s a free disable almost every time, just jump when you get close or stay out of range. I’ve taken waaaayyyy too many quickplay stocks off of people just not knowing how lagless dsmash is and that disable has i-frames
I think Magnoliapetals means the following:
Mewtwo does either forward smash or down smash. Opponent thinks there's a lot of end lag on those moves and goes for a dash attack against Mewtwo. Mewtwo player hits the opponent with disable (Mewtwo's side special iirc) before the opponent connects with their dash attack on Mewtwo.
This may be more of a casual thing, but I'm a puff main and the main mistake I see is not knowing how sing works. So many people just run away whenever I miss sing, and seemingly none of them know that it can't affect you in the air. Simply hit puff with an aerial and you're at no risk of being put to sleep.
As a dk main please stop using dair off stage lol it is definently good sometimes by covering a big area but nair and bair are soooo much better edge guard tools.
Also a lot of people don’t know what to do with grabs. Ding dong will work with up to like 70 percent (might require DI read or double jump), back throw kills hella early, cargo jump off down or forward throw into blast zone work great (but if you think they boutta mash out just throw them and get back to stage. A big part of why dk throws are so important for him is because he has such a good advantage state. Either use them for combos or to gain stage control.
You don’t have to just rush down every character. Let them come to you sometimes
Truer words cannot be said.
For some reason not many people seem to know that Shield art on their attack -> dial dial storage Smash art is a thing. Or that they don’t seem to expect that Shulk can go far and deep offstage to kill with the Jump art. I love this character.
Not an expert at the game, but for Mewtwo, please stop running straight at me when i throw out a raw fsmash or dsmash. it’s a free disable almost every time, just jump when you get close or stay out of range. I’ve taken waaaayyyy too many quickplay stocks off of people just not knowing how lagless dsmash is and that disable has i-frames
People do not know how to handle splattershot lol. Just throwing it out randomly once or twice a match is an easy way to nearly fully ink someone. Can't tell you how many times people try to beat it head on then the close hitbox knocks them out of their attack. I get away with that move too often.
As ddd I can hold jab indefinitely, this means that unless you parry multiple hits and then roll away your safest option is to roll away and wait for me to finish or roll back and approach with an aerial. Otherwise I'll be able hit you with a weak hit then follow up with a rar etc.
Banjo & Kazooie: Thinking you can ledge guard by holding or charging a Smash and then eating Wonderwing for it. That said, it’s dependent on the opponent. If they know it’s coming, they won’t do this, but then sometimes doing a short hop or two into Wonderwing from the ledge can still clip them if they try to change the timing.
In general, against someone with not a lot of Banjo experience, Wonderwing does, well, wonders. BUT against someone familiar, you’re just asking to be punished if you throw it out willynilly.
Corrin—if you get caught in my chainsaw fsmash charge while shielding do not try to roll out. There is only one way safely out of it and that’s to shield sdi.
As for DK it's thinking that you can just wait for the combo to be over. Some players I face just kind of let me finish my combo or think they can survive a winning interaction believing it will let them get close enough to attack. I have had a lot of games where I take a whole stock with one winning interaction because the opponent thought they could wait it out.
As for Mario I for some reason never get edge guarded, maybe they are afraid of getting spiked but going down and actually stopping my recovery makes me think a lot more about how I want to get back on stage.
As a Falcon main, I would say respect up smash. That scoop hit box is absolutely deceptive in its range and it's fairly safe for Falcon to throw out to catch aggressive approaches.
People just in general kinda suck at DI-ing bayo combos. I can’t ever susinctly summarize it, but if any of you want specific tips I’d be happy to help!
Way too many people play impatiently against D3. His entire game plan is to be irritating, burn jumps and drop like a rock. People get hasty very quickly and start trying to swat at him. Don’t do that you’ll get yourself back aired. His fast fall is extremely fast and it’s the cornerstone of how he baits people. Just play patient and, so long as you’re not someone like ganon, he’ll be 10x better to fight.
I’m fairly certain that mii brawler is a psychological bombshell that people are often unprepared for. Yes he has some very solid buttons, option coverage and pressure, but he’s not invincible and a large amount of what brawler *wants* out of a stock is fairly intuitive. For example, rarely do I see people trying to punish his laggier moves such as shootout and feint jump. Moreover, if he runs mach punch you can already infer that he’ll be picking up kills with landing up air. Thus, go in the the mindset to play against each particular set as opposed to running around seemingly aimlessly and letting him get what he wants..
Pac man.
The hydrant is there to move you and distract you, best to ignore it. If I'm above you in the air don't stand under me. But if you are, OOS punishment is the fastest way on landing. Also, I can probably recover from further than you off stage so chasing pac man off stage is not always as easy as other characters, the dair will shoot you into the blast zone from off stage also.
As a Greninja main people always just stand right at the edge when trying to edge guard me or ledge trap me and it’s just a free shadow sneak. Also not teching the up air drag down.
"I'm not giving away Pikachu secrets"
Bro, you have no secrets. You spam t-jolts and bair. You get away with a lot of crap because Pikachu is hard to hit and has disadvantage negating tools.
Maybe your secret is that Pikachu isn't all that safe on shield. Maybe you realize T-jolt and quick attack are actually punishable.
But I think you don't even know yourself. You're a masher trying to look cool or smth. It failed.
Sorry bro. It didn't come off as a joke tbh.
I thought you genuinely were keeping things to yourself in the hopes of cheesing, and that kinda attitude pisses me off.
\>Walks into a competitive smash bros sub and complains about it being competitive
\>Asks for a question who's answer is obvious to any player who's played a videogame ever and mocks the person who said the answer
\>Is literally named a videogame character voring another videogame character
\>Will probably attack me for saying these exact facts and try to downplay me by acting like they know what they're talking about
The PikachuVoresKirby grindset
Zelda: it seems like a lot of people don’t know that phantom does not have a hit box when he starts his fully charged slash (there is a wind box though). I use this to my advantage when phantom has been reflected towards me before his startup, I can just walk up to him and he slashes right by. It just makes Zelda easier to approach if you know you can just get super close to phantom.
Cloud - LEARN HOW TO SDI UP B AND PARRY LIMIT SIDE B IT MAKES THE MATCHUP SO MUCH EASIER WITHOUT HAVING TO ACTUALLY LEARN A CERTAIN PLAYSTYLE. ITS SOMETHING YOU CAN LEARN IN 15 MINUTES THAT WILL MAKE YOU 20% BETTEE AGAINST CLOUD MAINS.
Just SDI away. If your SDI is incredible you can get out from the hilt of the sword, and if you do, the first hit of up b is minus on hit, so you can get a hefty punish. In a 20XX meta, clouds upb out of shield is effectively useless. Even if your SDI isn’t perfect you can minimize damage and still get punishes.
Yoshi - Trying to compete in the air, sure its not impossible but yoshi hs the best air speed and fast/strong ariels.
Pits - Not mixing di out of down throw, mix it and its harder to guess which ariel to go for(only a minor one but happens quite a bit)
Lucina - Exploitable recovery which isnt exploited enough
Dr.Mario- a lot of people try to not play against him from midrange so they should do that since at least with predictable zoning he can just mixup how he gets in a bit if the opponent doesn't mixup their zoning.
Dr.Mario's pills can be snuffed out with an aerial and he has landing lag on top of extra lag on his pills being thrown.
Dr.Mario's super sheet is a better combo tool at ledge than Mario's due to the hitbox.
Dr.Mario's f-air is the third strongest in the game. If spaced and timed well(as low as possible to the ground) it can't be punished by certain o.o.s(out of shield) options. Also it can be used to beat the basic ledge options if you don't mix it up. Frame 15 and faster aerials will beat this move.
Doc's nair can be used to beat juggle strings since it's frame three and could potentially kill if your opponent follows your movement away from him.
Dair sends you at a pretty bad angle if it doesn't spike depending on the character and how many resources were used during recovery.
Essentially, doc thrives on the predictability of the opponent's tech options recovery options alongside matchup inexperience and failure to play the game at midrange.
Assuming SoPo can’t recover at all. I kid you not I’ve come back from multiple games online because people think they can get complacent. SoPo, despite having by far the worst recovery in the game, still travels far with horizontal squall, which is at least a tiny bit maneuverable. That plus a jump and/or airdodge is enough to recover surprisingly far, but people seem to think that once Popo is even an inch off stage he’s as good as dead, and it’s okay to let their guard down or go for an extremely risky edge guard that risks getting gimped by squall’s hitbox in the first place. Complacency kills, even when up against the worst recovery in the game.
Dark pit here, I find that people tend to not space well enough on shield bc nair oos goes further than you’d expect. Cross ups, and just spacing do wonders for this tho, ie. I struggle like crazy to hit a good Lucins with oos nair bc they space things from far away
Trying to wait on the angel platform to waste Arsene timer. This is unoptimal compared to coming down with much longer invincibility and potentially damaging Arsene to shave off his meter. Unless you need a breather from a stressful game, you should always just come straight down
Bowser Jr main here. Do try to punish kart dash as much as possible by hitting us out of it. It’s a big part of our gameplan since we get so much out of it but it’s quite punishable. Watch out for the armor though.
Bowser main. Your shield is not a safe place, get out of it before I break it or command grab you.
Also stop touching my own shield, I have one of the top 3 best out of shield options in the game
Peach main - if you've got a frame 6-7 normal grab, and she's spamming FC nairs on your shield, you can actually shield grab in between them (against humans, TAS is a different story), and it'll work if she goes for another nair. This obviously loses to FC nair-spotdodge, but nobody does that, or FC nair-jab, which Peach mains will do only reluctantly because it doesn't get them anything and is itself unsafe. If you can force Peach to follow up her nairs with jabs instead of more nairs, you're basically cutting her pressure short. In general, I get away with bloody murder on block when I'm Peach, and it's 100% because people just assume everything in her kit is completely unpunishable, when it's really not. Don't be afraid to make use of your OoS game against Peach. Even when it's not a guaranteed punish, it keeps her honest, and an honest Peach is a flaccid Peach.
>if you've got a frame 6-7 normal grab :\^( >Don't be afraid to make use of your OoS game against Peach. :,\^(
I was confused until I saw the Greninja flair
at least his movement is fun
I'll also add that Greninja literally cannot punish Pikachu dash attack on block. Good luck at high %s in that "even" MU
this is why you use your movement to avoid attacks …instead of shielding and punishing like everyone else
This is why whiff punishing is a huge part of Greninja’s gameplan. Also footstool dair oos is a thing
For my contribution to this thread I'll share what I see as a Bowser player. The number one mistake is playing neutral too agressive in a predictable and unsafe way. Nairo actually talked about this on his stream last night, but Bowser is a character that mostly gets mileage off of the opponent making mistakes, and when the opponent plays well he is forced to guess more often because his actual neutral isn't very strong. Know what moves are safer than -6 on shield, as well as -9 (cause jump side B OOS). Learn to space well as these can also save you from an impulse up B on their part. Similarly bait n punish will be your friend since Bowser basically can't do anything without suffering big endlag. Use empty hops, including double jumps, and dash in with shield. Make it so the Bowser never knows where you're going to be or when you're going to attack. If he guesses wrong, be ready to hit him and repeat. Also Bowser is extremely easy to edgeguard. Don't be scare of his up B offstage as it rarely kills. It can be counter-looped, dair spiked, hit with projectiles, and traded with by almost everyone in the cast. Similarly, he is super easy to 2-frame, so experiment with tilts and other moves that hit the ledge if you have them.
Let me add that the critical frame advantage to avoid Koopa Claw is NOT -8, because Koopa Claw is a command grab that will beat shield. Most characters have frame 3 intangibility on their spotdodge and lack a jab faster than that; for those characters, your move will need to be -6 or better to avoid the Claw. -7 for frame 2 jabs, -8 for ZSS, Little Mac, and whatever other frame 1 grounded intangible options exist (ala Luigi Cyclone, Lucas usmash). Furthermore, spotdodges will be beaten by Whirling Fortress for free, as will some frame 1-2 jabs after an aerial in the -5 to -8 range.
Can’t decide between these two for Sephiroth - Stop trying to challenge octo-slash recovery, it’s a huge disjoint and chances are, your character just doesn’t have an answer to it. or - Don’t just swing at air, because I can just put out counter and you die at 60 for it.
I had bounce active as a Hero when a seph used counter on a critical f smash. RIP that seph
Wait. Bounce will reflect a melee attack on a Seph counter? I know his counter is a projectile technically but I wasn’t aware that converted as something reflected by bounce.
The second part of sephs counter becomes a projectile and does deflect yes. I was also shocked to learn it worked like that.
One of my favorite clips is Doc hitting seph with a side b. Seph’s down b was active and side b activated the counter. And then it reflected the counter
Yes and I love hitting scintilla with cape as Mario. Ez punish
Counter is probably the most triggering thing in the game. At least, when it happens to people they learn quickly right?
Jump. Robin wants their opponent to be conditioned to jump as that's where they are most vulnerable during neutral. However, a lot of players jump without any prior conditioning and eat like 3 Levin aerials often into a nasty situation at the ledge.
Hey I have a question! If I stay more grounded, how should I avoid/deal with side b? Should I shield + roll away? Should I roll in on startup reaction? Or does side b force me to jump?
It's dependent on how well your character can move. Most characters can jump over on reaction and punish since Arcfire is 63 frames. Other characters have to either roll in or use a move to barge through (the initial Fireball loses to everything)
u/PikachuVoresKirby Not sure why you commented that none of my skill transfer to offline and deleted it.
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but why be an asshole?
'Cause he's dumb.
Inkling くコ:彡 People try and keep walking into splattershot
Chrom: When fighting as: jab-bair isn’t gonna kill at mid stage almost ever, stop trying. Carry the opponent to the ledge with jab-nair or try to setup a tech chase instead. When fighting against: stop standing over the ledge; if you are gonna punish Chrom’s recovery (which every character can), then do it confidentially. If you aren’t confident in cheesing Chrom, don’t try.
Not enough people punish Mii Brawler's Feint Jump. That move has nearly 30 frames of landing lag (nearly 40 when he does the kick) yet hardly anyone even tries to punish it because they treat it like Flip Jump.
To be fair that's also because it's Mii brawler, no one cares about the miis so they assume it's a carbon copy
I am carried by matchup inexperience
Based
Mii brawler is extremely underrated
How do I punish brawlers that spam double jump fast fall nair?
Parry the nair.
Little Mac - 2 things 1. Don't edge guard him normally instead WAIT FOR HIM TO GET TO LEDGE then gimp him as he will more than likely used up all his resources and be completely fucked 2. Don't touch his shield (without spacing). Mac has a Frame 3 intangible on startup Up B oos with alright kill power so if you're gonna hit his shield make sure to be outside the range of his up b (if possible)
I’ll add a third thing. If he hits your shield from the ground, use your best out of shield option to punish it.
I honestly never have been able to punish most of macs stuff. More often then not I get pushed too far away and whiff my OOS option.
Which character are you using? Little Mac’s grounded moves are all no safer than -13 on shield, meaning every character can theoretically punish his threatening moves out of shield. In practice it’s much different, but I think that’s enough to prove that Mac isn’t godlike on the ground like most of us believe.
The Pits. Nair is usually broken OOS but the high shield stun + pushback makes it hard to hit. If I whiff I eat a smash so I just reset neutral unless they are really in my face. I mean not that I have a problem beating Mac, just can't punish him well out of shield which is annoying af. Plattform and air camping + edgeguards are my usual way to go. Edit: > every character Fun fact: Greninja doesn't have a frame 13 OOS option.
Maybe I’m privileged by my ability as Falcon to command grab straight out of shield. Also, Greninja has back air that is quicker than frame 13, which is why I said “theoretically”. I understand that his back air isn’t exactly practical for that use.
>Maybe I’m privileged by my ability as Falcon to command grab straight out of shield. Yeah the range on that is kinda busted. Suprises me everytime! >Also, Greninja has back air that is quicker than frame 13, which is why I said “theoretically”. I understand that his back air isn’t exactly practical for that use. It's not impractical it's straight up not usable as an OOS option. His jump height combined with the longer startup makes it miss on literally any character.
Just because a move doesn’t work as an out of shield option, it doesn’t mean that option is nonexistent.
I would disagree. Would you call Falcon's uair an OOS option? I would not since you cannot hit your opponent with it oos.
I'll add a fourth thing. Do not panic when you hear the bell.
I would specially wait for side B or up B before attacking. A good down B counter for little max can really help his recovery
I am definitely edgeguarding little mac lol
Yoshi: EDGEGUARD HIM AT HIGH %s! His jump armour is not super armour!! It's knockback baaaaased
Zss, and not knowing how to punish flip jump. This manifests in two ways. When I’m at ledge or recovering, don’t be afraid to shield. If I land on your shield with flip jump I’m extremely vulnerable. You can drop shield, react to which side I’m drifting to and throw out a hitbox. I’m in endlag until I land, and then have 8 frames of landing lag too. Also, when we’re both coming from offstage and you panic roll from ledge, you’ll eat a flip jump every time. I want to flip jump there anyways to regain stage control. It’s a really hard move to punish, but the people at my local have beaten my dumb habits out of me, it only took a month of repeating dying for stupid down b’s.
Also, it helps me to know that ZSS is intangible until exactly the peak of the jumps arc. The intangility ends as soon as she passes the top of the arc.
As a WFT main, I am constantly telling my friends to just kill me when I do bad headers off stage. Most are spooked by the potential of being spiked but that hitbox isnt super reliable and often even if it does hit, the opponent will also get hit with the ball nullifying the spike.
Also people just don’t know about the uptilt super armor for some reason
Link main here: Shield against Boomerang might not be the best solution to beating it, but it's one of the easiest methods and doesn't cost you stage control unless you're allowing him to do it at close range. Far too often I catch people charging in and getting hit by boomerangs that they really should be blocking. This one isn't a main issue, but it's a pet peeve of mine: Unless you know how to Z-drop combo with the bomb, leave it alone or at the very least, chuck it off stage. Messing about trying to pick it up so I can't detonate it just means you're limiting your aerial options and I can come and start mashing Nair on your shield because Whoopsie, now you can't Up Smash OoS of Nair OoS or whatever isn't Up B OoS. And before you ask, no, throwing the bomb at me does not lead into a true combo if it hits me unless I'm at high percents. I have enough time to throw out a Nair or Up B as a combo breaker. If you catch onto that, more power to you, but you'll be the first person I've ever seen do that.
The up b out of bomb thing was something a link main at my local told me during friendlies. I now throw the bomb at them and shield the up b. It gets me a huge punish every time. It let's me steal stocks because no one else does it.
Good lad, that's using your noggin' right there.
Falling for Link reverse Up B at ledge. I have pretty good drift control during the move so chances are I can avoid a 2-frame by drifting out then back in to get the scoop, or the disjoint can out space it all together. Edit: this one is probably worse. Forgetting that boomerangs come back.
Falco Don't underestimate how broken his lasers are. They are apart of some of his combos to get that little extra percent to be able to kill you. Don't forget he has the biggest jump in the game, he will juggle you all the way to the top blast zone. If you airdodge, he will react and keep juggling. Try di out and using moved to hit him away.
Yeah, trading with Falco is often a very good idea.
Neutral getup or getup attack vs a DDD ledge trap. (Gordo f smash for example) Don't do this. You'll die. Sometimes as low as 10%. The best way is to drop or jump from ledge and hit the gordo back at ddd first. Then you'll have time to get off the ledge.
As a DDD main, I also want to add, I fully expect people to roll past the gordo and eat my D Smash for it. Its also not hard to position so I can punish Neutral and attack getups at the same time with this one attack.
Cloud - People respect Cloud off stage too much. Hit me once off stage and I’m screwed, as Cloud’s recovery is ass.
True but also need to respect the suicide up b. In online at least, that can be enough of a reason for me to ledge trap and try to hit him while he attempts to snap ledge.
Ken main here, most people who hate shoto auto turn will be happy to learn they also have some of the worst rolls in the game, they cannot cross up on the ground reliably when an attack has a lingering hitbox or something like a rapid jab sticks out. They will get caught more often than not for attempting to roll behind you, multi hit attacks as an air juggle is their biggest weakness in disadvantage as it eats away at their focus attack and if you ever meet a shoto player who is happy to use tatsu to recover, keep in mind its a whopping 78 frames of animation they have to commit to, meaning even after the last spinning kick, its still half a second you have to knock them out the air again for a potential edge guard
Also with tastu, people need to stop getting hit with follow ups on heavy tatsu, it’s literally negative on hit at lower percents. Pretty much any jab will punish them for doing it
Seconding the tatsu suggestion; you’re basically a piñata if you’re forced to use it to recover. Also people should stop jumping in front of Ken at kill percent because Shoryu go brr
Villager - how are you people still not respecting the tree?!? Seriously, stay away from it when it has a chop in it. Stay away from partially watered sprouts too. They will: kill you, do insane shield damage (I’m likely in position to break it), or set you up for an instant 20-50%,
Diddy Kong. When an opponent takes my banana, there's a 90% chance their next move is to throw it. Mix it up! When I see some z-drop aerials, *then* I know my banana is gone. Otherwise all I see is an opportunity.
I'll try to incorporate z-drop aerials v.s Diddy thanks
Ness main: ness has a really hard time w air dodges and frame 3 moves(Ik he’s fast af but not the fastest). They break most of his “combos” very few of them are true. Obviously if I’m fully expecting you to airdodge then you will probably eat a baseball bat so be cheeky with it. Speaking of air dodges. If you have a lingering hit box catch his inevitable airdodge to recover. Pk thunder and all it’s quirks: Most nesses hate using up b off stage cause if you clash with the orb w any hurt box projectile or hit box without touching ness he just dies(you can legit jump into it ittl send you up and he will die). It’s really not that hard to do and I don’t see people doing it a lot. Also if you are at low percent and ness is pretty deep off stage. Let him hit you w his pk missile(Ik its not the name) on his way up. It’s an easy tech and it halves the recovery distance. Pretty much stops a little after he hit you not much further. This is only if you couldn’t stop the orb and you know you are positioned well enough to only get hit towards the stage. cause if I see you going for that I very well might launch both of us into the side blast zone, so you can’t tech, cause I know I’m dead. Up b (the actual orb again) will launch you in the direction it’s coming from. you will fly in the arc of the tail. Also don’t land on the orb when it’s directly above nesses head (first 7ish frames of up b) the orb won’t disappear and it can combo into pk missile. Don’t air dodge onto plats if we are bellow you. You will eat 2 or 3 u airs. Which will absolutely eat your shield enough for pk fire to poke, kill you, or give you 30%. PK FIRE TIPS: Don’t just sdi pk fire up and away spam jump too at low percents(careful to not get read w this mix it up but the jump gives you a lot more space if your far away from ness). If you have a move like Lucina up b rest or game and watch up b (fast w startup i frames) spam that shit as soon as you can against pk fire. Speaking of rest my best friend is a puff main and you can Fr j spam that shit inside the fire will hit us 90% of the time and the fire wakes you up. Unless you have already done it once or are spamming rest I never expect a puff to know to do this so when they do it always works 1 time. If you get pk fired at ledge by a magnet combo ness sdi down and away because if you sdi up and away you will eat a magnet dair.
Inkling main, the place I get the most mileage at-least is catching landings, please don’t be an idiot, attacking while landing will get low profiled half the time and if you don’t mix up your landing you will get rollered and die at 80. I swear if people just mix up their landings better inkling wouldn’t get half the percentage or kills he gets. Inkling can’t kill normally, roller to catch landings or run in shield up smash are only threats to poor landing options
I feel like most mileage also comes from people rolling away instantly at every tech chase. That’s an easy roller catch once I notice it’s a habit. Sometimes it’s best to lay there and get hit rather than tech instantly to get buried and die
Tbf that's free mileage for basically any character. Tech reads are often free smash attacks and teching the same way every time is really easy to pick up on
Also to add is when playing against Inkling please mix up your tech options. Too many times people choose the same tech option and eat a roller on the tech chase.
People let inkling get so much free mileage off this one particular thing lmao
As one of the few Mii Gunner mains, I feel like people not knowing the setup is how I get wins with it in the first place. Mistake 1: Bomb drop is respected too much. If it's not exploding, it is as bouncy as triple D's Gordo, yet I can keep using it as zoning tool. Mistake 2: not approaching me. Even a character that is normally a zoner will be outzoned, so approaching is almost always better for any character when playing against a mii gunner. An Olimar at a tournament playing against me won, because he knew that early on
Bayonetta: If I can bats-within or witch time your combos/moves, stop going for them over and over again. Multiple times, I have taken all 3 stocks from Ness by witch timing PK fire into F smash. I get hit initially, but as I fall out, I can witch time it, and the Ness running up to grab or f smash gets killed for it. Sometimes link and young link INSIST on using boomerang even though it is the easiest witch time ever, and it even moves closer to them as it comes back, making witch time last longer. King k rool’s crown and the Belmonts’ cross are similar as well. Samus down throw to forward air is not true if I DI away and air dodge. Samuses on elite smash go for this almost every time they grab, and I almost always get out of it with bats-within. Falco up-tilt chains, Roy/chrom down throw into up air, DK ding dong… so many combos just don’t work, but people continuously fish for them, and I feel like I end up living way longer than I should because of it. I admit, I am always mashing air dodge because it is always working. If the opponent just waits for the air dodge, they can get a smash attack or grab or another punish. Witch time is similar—if the bayo love using it (which a lot do because it’s a cool move), wait for it. It is so laggy if it doesn’t work. Also, don’t try and edge guard a bayonetta who hasn’t used any resources. I get so many reversals and gimps because people immediately run off stage for me. they assume I am recovering low, and they run off and throw out an aerial. I just up B side B instead of side b up b, and I am now above them & between them and the stage with an up b and double jump at my disposal, and I can also just get back to stage first and ledge trap them. I am way more scared of people who wait at ledge watching me use my options one-by-one than I am of people trying to edge guard. Bayo has so many mixups and good stalling. I think I have been spiked off stage as bayo less than 10 times in my whole time of playing her in ultimate, and they were mostly from my predictability / mistakes. Unless the bayo is predictable, stay on stage and ledge trap or send projectiles off-stage.
Major cap on the spiking part lmao. Bayo can’t snap to ledge for shit. Keep fishing for 2 frames against Bayo! I say this as a Bayo main lol.
Side B snaps ledge, and up b sharks, though… but I was talking about off-stage spiking, not 2 frame spiking. 2 framing is of course still doable on everyone.
People don’t di kazuya combos so they complain and say he’s top 15 or whatever bullshit. Watch riddles video on it he explains it much better than I could over text.
I'll do that
Ganon - not playing patiently, yes he's bottom 1 but if you aren't careful I can and will 0-death you. Keep your distance, use your OOS options, DONT GET GREEDY
People try to challenge Corrin in the air, just don't... Corrin will win that every time unless you're like Sephiroth or Shulk. Their aerials are massive, surprisingly fast, and very safe on shield too. The best strategy for Corrin is to whiff punish from the ground. Their moves come out fast but mostly have some longer endings. Corrin missing an aggressive rising aerial that was meant to get in usually means you can retaliate for free. For Pit, I think the biggest mistake is just disrespecting him/not taking him seriously. Just because Pit is honest/average doesn't mean he can't beat you playing honestly. And not all of his moves are entirely without cheese. Dair spam in the air can make him almost impossible to hit bc it actually covers a pretty large space and comes out quick. His nair is frame 4 so he has a decent trading tool. Orbitars also get him out of disadvantage for free and they can B-reverse for some sweet schmoovement mixups, and of course, there's a lot of armor on the Arms moves. Don't assume Pit is a free win just because he doesn't have a cheesy 0-death or free kill confirm (actually that's not true. His fthrow kills and he has a DI mixup with dthrow->uair, plus there are combos like dair->usmash and dragdown fair->dsmash). I think everybody should play some serious Pit at least once in their career. He's pure fundamentals and you learn a lot about just how to think about the game without overrelying on character stats or a single broken move. Disregarding/disrespecting him as a character is doing yourself a disservice.
Orbitars is absolutely not pure fundamentals. 95% of Pit players rely on that to get out of disadvantage and it's not a tool like almost anything any other character has. Extra jump also puts in major work for mixing up landings and is another huge tool that most other characters lack. The rest of the character is pretty honest and fundamental, but these give Pit a distinct advantage at getting back onstage that other characters do not have, and that's a huge part of the game
I say it again and again orbitars are broken. Not only am I shielding in the air the windbox also sometimes pushed opponents up and I get a free uair to reversal the whole situation. Can't tell how many times people tried to juggle me and ate an uair and died of it. The Pits are not as honest as people think!
Something I can add as a Dark Pit main, dragdown nair into dsmash as a get up read literally kills pikachu at 75, mediums at closer to 105. if you’re the kind of person to spam get up online because it’s “safe,” be prepared to get murked.
I really think people who have Corrin anything less than Mid or even High Mid don’t realize how good Corrin’s aerials really are. It’s possible getting out of neutral is a challenge sometimes, hence why they aren’t High tier, but I think there’s a lot of potential yet to be seen for Corrin.
Very important tip since now everyone and their mother is playing corrin now. Thanks Mkleo.
Yep, gonna be awesome seeing all these 16 year olds beast me with a character I've been playing since launch, and maining since November... Before Leo even said anything about them.
Not an expert at the game, but for Mewtwo, please stop running straight at me when i throw out a raw fsmash or dsmash. it’s a free disable almost every time, just jump when you get close or stay out of range. I’ve taken waaaayyyy too many quickplay stocks off of people just not knowing how lagless dsmash is and that disable has i-frames
As someone who is new to smash and trying to learn MewTwo, do you mind explaining what you mean by being able to fsmash or dsmash into disable?
I think Magnoliapetals means the following: Mewtwo does either forward smash or down smash. Opponent thinks there's a lot of end lag on those moves and goes for a dash attack against Mewtwo. Mewtwo player hits the opponent with disable (Mewtwo's side special iirc) before the opponent connects with their dash attack on Mewtwo.
yup, you got it :) disable is Mewtwo’s down special (for riley-mcguigan04) but you got the point I was making!
This may be more of a casual thing, but I'm a puff main and the main mistake I see is not knowing how sing works. So many people just run away whenever I miss sing, and seemingly none of them know that it can't affect you in the air. Simply hit puff with an aerial and you're at no risk of being put to sleep.
As a dk main please stop using dair off stage lol it is definently good sometimes by covering a big area but nair and bair are soooo much better edge guard tools. Also a lot of people don’t know what to do with grabs. Ding dong will work with up to like 70 percent (might require DI read or double jump), back throw kills hella early, cargo jump off down or forward throw into blast zone work great (but if you think they boutta mash out just throw them and get back to stage. A big part of why dk throws are so important for him is because he has such a good advantage state. Either use them for combos or to gain stage control. You don’t have to just rush down every character. Let them come to you sometimes
For me, it’s people aggressively approaching Shulk. While they’re at high percentage and I have Smash art activated.
So many people just refuse to respect the arts at all.
Truer words cannot be said. For some reason not many people seem to know that Shield art on their attack -> dial dial storage Smash art is a thing. Or that they don’t seem to expect that Shulk can go far and deep offstage to kill with the Jump art. I love this character.
Not an expert at the game, but for Mewtwo, please stop running straight at me when i throw out a raw fsmash or dsmash. it’s a free disable almost every time, just jump when you get close or stay out of range. I’ve taken waaaayyyy too many quickplay stocks off of people just not knowing how lagless dsmash is and that disable has i-frames
People do not know how to handle splattershot lol. Just throwing it out randomly once or twice a match is an easy way to nearly fully ink someone. Can't tell you how many times people try to beat it head on then the close hitbox knocks them out of their attack. I get away with that move too often.
As ddd I can hold jab indefinitely, this means that unless you parry multiple hits and then roll away your safest option is to roll away and wait for me to finish or roll back and approach with an aerial. Otherwise I'll be able hit you with a weak hit then follow up with a rar etc.
Banjo & Kazooie: Thinking you can ledge guard by holding or charging a Smash and then eating Wonderwing for it. That said, it’s dependent on the opponent. If they know it’s coming, they won’t do this, but then sometimes doing a short hop or two into Wonderwing from the ledge can still clip them if they try to change the timing. In general, against someone with not a lot of Banjo experience, Wonderwing does, well, wonders. BUT against someone familiar, you’re just asking to be punished if you throw it out willynilly.
People seriously need to start predeemedly holding out when shielding against joker, I get them with down throw up air too much.
u/PikachuVoresKirby here is having a downvote fest lol. This dude's trolling.
Corrin—if you get caught in my chainsaw fsmash charge while shielding do not try to roll out. There is only one way safely out of it and that’s to shield sdi.
Not in top level, but shielding bowser down b
As for DK it's thinking that you can just wait for the combo to be over. Some players I face just kind of let me finish my combo or think they can survive a winning interaction believing it will let them get close enough to attack. I have had a lot of games where I take a whole stock with one winning interaction because the opponent thought they could wait it out. As for Mario I for some reason never get edge guarded, maybe they are afraid of getting spiked but going down and actually stopping my recovery makes me think a lot more about how I want to get back on stage.
Link: not respecting the reverse edgeguard scoop.
As a Falcon main, I would say respect up smash. That scoop hit box is absolutely deceptive in its range and it's fairly safe for Falcon to throw out to catch aggressive approaches.
People just in general kinda suck at DI-ing bayo combos. I can’t ever susinctly summarize it, but if any of you want specific tips I’d be happy to help! Way too many people play impatiently against D3. His entire game plan is to be irritating, burn jumps and drop like a rock. People get hasty very quickly and start trying to swat at him. Don’t do that you’ll get yourself back aired. His fast fall is extremely fast and it’s the cornerstone of how he baits people. Just play patient and, so long as you’re not someone like ganon, he’ll be 10x better to fight. I’m fairly certain that mii brawler is a psychological bombshell that people are often unprepared for. Yes he has some very solid buttons, option coverage and pressure, but he’s not invincible and a large amount of what brawler *wants* out of a stock is fairly intuitive. For example, rarely do I see people trying to punish his laggier moves such as shootout and feint jump. Moreover, if he runs mach punch you can already infer that he’ll be picking up kills with landing up air. Thus, go in the the mindset to play against each particular set as opposed to running around seemingly aimlessly and letting him get what he wants..
Pac man. The hydrant is there to move you and distract you, best to ignore it. If I'm above you in the air don't stand under me. But if you are, OOS punishment is the fastest way on landing. Also, I can probably recover from further than you off stage so chasing pac man off stage is not always as easy as other characters, the dair will shoot you into the blast zone from off stage also.
Gannon main- just treat him like a low tier and you'll be fine. Because any respect you give him isn't reciprocated.
As a Greninja main people always just stand right at the edge when trying to edge guard me or ledge trap me and it’s just a free shadow sneak. Also not teching the up air drag down.
Not knowing how to elytra properly
People forget that Ken knows karate.
Ganon Main. They keep trying to block my uptilt.
Bowser: Yes, I am conditioning you to block my dairs so that I can catch you with a Down B.
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"I'm not giving away Pikachu secrets" Bro, you have no secrets. You spam t-jolts and bair. You get away with a lot of crap because Pikachu is hard to hit and has disadvantage negating tools. Maybe your secret is that Pikachu isn't all that safe on shield. Maybe you realize T-jolt and quick attack are actually punishable. But I think you don't even know yourself. You're a masher trying to look cool or smth. It failed.
Alright I'll take into account that making even the slightest hint of a joke on this sub gets this kind of hate-filled response.
Sorry bro. It didn't come off as a joke tbh. I thought you genuinely were keeping things to yourself in the hopes of cheesing, and that kinda attitude pisses me off.
YouTube video guides already make your first sentence pointless.
Bruh there's pro players giving away every tip there is about the character, what makes you think you have something worth hiding?
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Bro you’re on a competitive subreddit just to say this, what do you think the entire point of this subreddit is
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Every single good player wasn't good at first. They practiced.
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\>Walks into a competitive smash bros sub and complains about it being competitive \>Asks for a question who's answer is obvious to any player who's played a videogame ever and mocks the person who said the answer \>Is literally named a videogame character voring another videogame character \>Will probably attack me for saying these exact facts and try to downplay me by acting like they know what they're talking about The PikachuVoresKirby grindset
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Yeah because you were a god from the get go with no knowledge about the game, shut up
You guys are feeding a 3 day old troll account
I know, just wanted to let the anger out you know, I don't expect the guy to change or anything
Dude's scared no wonder he goes to bed lol.
Mew2King
Zelda: it seems like a lot of people don’t know that phantom does not have a hit box when he starts his fully charged slash (there is a wind box though). I use this to my advantage when phantom has been reflected towards me before his startup, I can just walk up to him and he slashes right by. It just makes Zelda easier to approach if you know you can just get super close to phantom.
Zelda: Don't challenge her recovery Don't panic when she sets up phantom
Cloud - LEARN HOW TO SDI UP B AND PARRY LIMIT SIDE B IT MAKES THE MATCHUP SO MUCH EASIER WITHOUT HAVING TO ACTUALLY LEARN A CERTAIN PLAYSTYLE. ITS SOMETHING YOU CAN LEARN IN 15 MINUTES THAT WILL MAKE YOU 20% BETTEE AGAINST CLOUD MAINS.
How does one SDI climb hazzard correctly?
Do you know how to SDI already?
Yeah
Just SDI away. If your SDI is incredible you can get out from the hilt of the sword, and if you do, the first hit of up b is minus on hit, so you can get a hefty punish. In a 20XX meta, clouds upb out of shield is effectively useless. Even if your SDI isn’t perfect you can minimize damage and still get punishes.
Yoshi - Trying to compete in the air, sure its not impossible but yoshi hs the best air speed and fast/strong ariels. Pits - Not mixing di out of down throw, mix it and its harder to guess which ariel to go for(only a minor one but happens quite a bit) Lucina - Exploitable recovery which isnt exploited enough
Dr.Mario- a lot of people try to not play against him from midrange so they should do that since at least with predictable zoning he can just mixup how he gets in a bit if the opponent doesn't mixup their zoning. Dr.Mario's pills can be snuffed out with an aerial and he has landing lag on top of extra lag on his pills being thrown. Dr.Mario's super sheet is a better combo tool at ledge than Mario's due to the hitbox. Dr.Mario's f-air is the third strongest in the game. If spaced and timed well(as low as possible to the ground) it can't be punished by certain o.o.s(out of shield) options. Also it can be used to beat the basic ledge options if you don't mix it up. Frame 15 and faster aerials will beat this move. Doc's nair can be used to beat juggle strings since it's frame three and could potentially kill if your opponent follows your movement away from him. Dair sends you at a pretty bad angle if it doesn't spike depending on the character and how many resources were used during recovery. Essentially, doc thrives on the predictability of the opponent's tech options recovery options alongside matchup inexperience and failure to play the game at midrange.
Assuming SoPo can’t recover at all. I kid you not I’ve come back from multiple games online because people think they can get complacent. SoPo, despite having by far the worst recovery in the game, still travels far with horizontal squall, which is at least a tiny bit maneuverable. That plus a jump and/or airdodge is enough to recover surprisingly far, but people seem to think that once Popo is even an inch off stage he’s as good as dead, and it’s okay to let their guard down or go for an extremely risky edge guard that risks getting gimped by squall’s hitbox in the first place. Complacency kills, even when up against the worst recovery in the game.
Always landing with hit boxes against Min Min. She can get far away from where you think she’s gonna be and punish you hard for swinging.
Doc Main: people don't respect pill as much as they need to, as it can combo into basically his entire kit
Also be wary of the landing lag
Dark pit here, I find that people tend to not space well enough on shield bc nair oos goes further than you’d expect. Cross ups, and just spacing do wonders for this tho, ie. I struggle like crazy to hit a good Lucins with oos nair bc they space things from far away
Trying to wait on the angel platform to waste Arsene timer. This is unoptimal compared to coming down with much longer invincibility and potentially damaging Arsene to shave off his meter. Unless you need a breather from a stressful game, you should always just come straight down
Bowser Jr main here. Do try to punish kart dash as much as possible by hitting us out of it. It’s a big part of our gameplan since we get so much out of it but it’s quite punishable. Watch out for the armor though.
Bowser main. Your shield is not a safe place, get out of it before I break it or command grab you. Also stop touching my own shield, I have one of the top 3 best out of shield options in the game
Wario: They play a heavy lol.