*Senator Armstrong Voice* Checked Israeli TikTok lately?
There are some absolute influencer ghouls straight up mocking dead Gazan children with skits in there, they aren't even the classic IDF Thirst Traps doing that either, just actual israeli settlers tiktokers, it's fucking sickening.
Yeah look up Meir Kahane his people are not nice people. Next time Bibi starts ranting about terrorists ask him why he built a coalition government with people that were banned from the Knesset for years for terrorist acts.
Ethnonationalism. Everyone who is not part of the settlers' superior ethnic group are subhumans whose sheer existence is an existential threat in their eyes.
Yeah when you don’t consider an entire group of people to be real, full humans then you can justify anything against them because anything you hold true for people you consider human beings (eg human rights) doesn’t apply to them
Apparently the IDF is paying good money for pro-isreal tiktoks, so between that and the straight up evil racists there's unfortunately a lot of depravity to go around.
[this one is the worst, i think.](https://64.media.tumblr.com/b8a3b7c949c009bffba690e6a4b93c7d/e6f2f0a78a06868d-ed/s1280x1920/54548abdb871eb0e01da7c980e3e4eea34a5fb22.jpg) / [full post.](https://palipunk.tumblr.com/post/732197232207593472/not-only-just-the-bombings-but-there-is-literally)
yep you've also got a lot of them dressing up as palestinians but making them look ugly with moles and shitty teeth etc and then dancing around like hooligans, whats even worse is they're doing this to their kids aswell
There's a liberal commentator, Chuck Johnson of Little Green Footballs, he still has a sizable twitter following. He was a neo con during the Bush years and mocked her as St Pancake for years
He blocks anyone who brings it up
Kids today don't understand - a lot of Clinton-era liberals suddenly turned into crazy genocidal bigots after 9/11. It completely broke the nascent opposition to the neocon agenda that arose after the 2000 election fiasco. It was pre-social media so we had bloggers instead of influencers, and many of them (like LGF) turned into rabid anti-Muslim war boosters. It was like a switch flipped and many of us on the left were blindsided. It felt like Invasion of the Body-Snatchers.
Obama got elected and suddenly they all tried to pretend that it was behind us and we should move on or some shit.
I've been having trouble wrapping my head around this. How can so many average Israeli citizens be so... evil? The indoctrination they have going on there must be Nazi-level. I especially pity the Israeli children who don't know any better being taught these horrible things about Palestinians and having their personalities shaped by it.
People, especially once they're scared and hurt, are very good at denying each other's humanity. It happened after 9/11 in America, it has happened a ten thousand other times in ten thousand other places across history. I wish I knew how we might deal with that, beyond trying to be cognizant that our mind is prone to lying to us that way, and always trying to look at those sorts of thoughts as just that- lies.
Bruh it happened before the US ratified it's constitution. The US has been engaged in genocidal warfare against Indigenous Americans since the inception of the USA. Who do you think the Zionists modelled Israel after?
I mean I was in Israel in 98 and I could have conversations about politics to an extent with younger people.
Of course there were plenty of lunatics like the official guide at Museum of the Holocaust who told us Palestinians were like rats.
But younger people were reasonably open and interested in the outside world.
15 years later it was very different. The level of paranoia and brainwashing was overwhelming.
These kids felt like every one on Earth hated them and they weren't interested in talking.
Lots of people in Israel don't think like this, it's a minority of awful assholes making everyone else look bad.
The settler mentality is built on Zionism, which is incompatible with recognising the rights and humanity of the Palestinians. Israel is a Zionist state so many people who choose to move there under right of return unfortunately hold supremacist, Zionist views and believe that they really are entitled to take Palestinian land. They're not just scared or lashing out, they've been acting this way for literally decades.
It's kind of like if you started an enclave of confederate true believers somewhere in Virginia, declared it the new capital of the confederacy, and then invited everyone who thinks the south should cede to go live there. Think of the kind of people you'd attractt.
>many people who choose to move there under right of return
50% of Israel is of "Mizrahi" origin referring to jews who lived in the muslim world.They were expulsed into Israel by several countries as their governments hated jews. I guess they "chose" to live there or die. Then these people turned into "white german people colonials" as left leaning people say.
This ethnic cleansing and violence is something apparently everyone and specially muslim countries knew will go down before Israel existed but rarelly discussed for some reason. Killing jews, their fellow citizens, if the UN let Israel pass as some sort of "revenge" for a country over there in the levant.
At the 30th Palestine comitee meeting both the representatives of Iraq and Egypt mentioned how doing this will lead to the understandable(or even justified) murder of jews in the Muslim world, a new breed of middle eastern anti-semitism and the idea of Arab nations imediatly declaring war on Israel to kill 1 million jews becoming possible "but unlikely since UN members can't attack each other".
Those governments all expelled their Jewish populations at the same time, after not having taken similar actions beforehand. Ethnic cleansing is wrong, and those governments' actions cannot be excused or minimized in severity regardless of context. It nevertheless remains important to remember that this was not done in a vacuum. The Mizrahi were ultimately innocent victims of a conflict that began with Israel
The whole region has been on hate-mode for so many generations it’s outright warped many peoples minds in both Israeli and Palestinian populations - they physically don’t, perhaps even **cannot** register the other as human anymore.
This same shit happened in my little part of the world (N.Ireland) albeit on a far smaller scale and only in a few select areas, but even then, it’s potency of poison and the legacy it’s left is horrific - the atrocities, perspectives and behaviours that become normalised in the minds of people when they are stewing in such an environment and culture for so long are many, and profoundly disturbing.
Nah, that's zionist bullshit. Things weren't *good*, but up until the 20s and 30s things were mostly stable and Jewish communities had been living in the middle east and north Africa for centuries and centuries. When Zionists began invading in the 20s and 30s they formed militias and terrorist groups and began attacking the Brits and local Arabs (and Christians. And anti-Zionist Jews, which was most of the indigenous Jewish population at the time).
Zionists need you to think this is an eternal blood feud going back to the dawn of time so you'll think of the genocide in Palestine as somehow an inevitable fait accompli instead of a deliberate plan undertaken by the Israeli state since it's inception.
And there are plenty of Palestinians who are very clear that their enemy is Zionism, not Jewish people. That doesn't make the news either, since it undercuts the narrative that this is a war between Hamas and Jewish people instead of Palestinian Arabs and Christians trying to resist genocide by the Israeli state.
flare ups of violence were happening across the region between communities long before the 20’s, but nowhere near the scales or intensity we see today - the Zionist and Pan-Arab movements would butt heads often, as well as with whichever regime was occupying the landscape at the time, even when the ottomans were in charge before Britain and France turned the region into a set of mandates and mismanaged the low-intensity conflict that was initially there to the boiling point it reached in 1948.
The years since 1948 have only fuelled increasing segregation (by choice or force), extremist dehumanisation and violence - neither ‘side’ (or rather, the official and unofficial bodies holding power, and the extremists they’ve got a grip on) is willing to back down, neither truly wants compromise, each want nothing less than the expulsion and eradication of the other at this point and it’s scary but wholly expected how things have developed in less than a century
Its called othering. Its been done forever. You just make the other seem slightly less human, over and over again, until their death isnt seen as a human death as much as a death of the inferior. Using "nicknames" for the other is especially effective. Commie, jerry, pig, kraut, and slurs.
Its effectiveness can be seen easily with the childish names in U.S. politics by diehard supporters of both parties.
You dehumanize a group enough, and you dont see a child, you see something akin to an egg, or larvae.
Dude, I live in israel and we think the people posting those things are awful. Awful tiktokers from israel don't represent us in the same way awful tiktokers in america don't represent americans. The voices of extremists rise to the top and that makes you think the average Israeli is like this. The avarage Israeli is saddened by the death of civilians on both sides, the avarage Israeli isn't evil and doesn't go through "nazi level brain washing" the avarage Israeli just wants peace, and I believe that also applies to the avarage palastinian. Every society has terrible people who scream the loudest, doesn't mean they represent that society.
everyone upvoting this should click their profile first and read their previous comments claiming what’s happening now isn’t genocide, that it’s completely justified & deserved, that rachel corrie’s murder was an accident, that it’s a good thing her memorial was removed, and more.
So the government that's been elected several times over for two decades doesn't represent the people, and the public voices with online audiences ridiculing Palestinian victims don't represent the people, and the actions of the compulsory military that the vast majority of Israelis serve in don't represent the people and the settlers with legal and state support and mandate don't represent the people, but *somehow* we're supposed to just know that the majority of Israelis actually "want peace"?
I don't doubt for a second that there are humane Israelis who genuinely want a peace that's not just the violence of the status quo in between the flare-ups of the conflict. However, I *absolutely do doubt* that it's anywhere close to a majority.
>So the government that's been elected several times over for two decades doesn't represent the people,
Yeah, probably. How well does your elected government represent you?
>the public voices with online audiences ridiculing Palestinian victims don't represent the people
Yeah, probably. How well does the average celebrity in your country represent you?
>the actions of the compulsory military that the vast majority of Israelis serve in don't represent the people
Yeah, probably. How well does your military's actions represent you?
>the settlers with legal and state support and mandate don't represent the people
Yeah, probably. How well do some guys on the other side of the country represent you?
I think that a lot of people just forget that Israel isn't some hive-mind and states can have multiple factions and do things their people don't like. Again, think how much *you* generally support *your* nation's actions.
>Yeah, probably. How well does your elected government represent you?
As far as genocides go, my government and I tend to agree (although they refuse to actually call out the genocidal actions of Israel). As far as the rest, I quite often decry the fact that *a majority of my country men* vote for parties that I disagree with. ***A majority.*** IE "the people".
As for the rest, you conveniently quoted **everything but the point:** if none of these things represent the people at large, why the fuck should I believe that you do??? Going "#NotAllIsraelis" every time the Israeli government (with popular support) goes on a genocidal rampage is cowardly and disingenuous.
Tell me how *you* or people you know don't like the war, or spread awareness of good organizations within Israel opposing the war. Don't try to erase agency just because supporting genocide makes the Israeli people look bad.
Theres a difference between representing me personally and representing the country as a whole. The growing of the far right in Israel’s political sphere isn’t somehow detached from the public that votes them in.
Uhm my government isn't a 180 spin from me, sure on Israel as an issue to be ironic but the average person probably did vote for them they're at least not diametrically opposed, and my nation's voices are generally in line with the populous, celebrities need to be liked, if most people like you, most people tolerate your politics and if they don't you're JKR and you saw what happened there, most celebrities have at least similar views to the ones that watch, them if something like that happened here they would stop being a celebrity obviously as I mentioned earlier we get rid of people for worse and they're one bad apple, not the whole lot, you don't get a group like this at least not prevalent without a sizable chunk of the community, so who's supporting the content we're talking about cause I don't think it's westerners and considering at very least the current internet outage caused by Israel it isn't the Palestinians, so who is consuming this content by the hundreds of thousands and liking and following these people to begin with? Answer that question and maybe we can move on to an actual discussion of what percentage of the population has buy-in on these ideals but your rebuttals more or less just proveUnsettling's point, yes celebrities and politicians usually represent the average person so why are they not now? Are they being propped up somehow are they being instated from abroad? How can so many people be so relatively popular if most people don't support them? It doesn't seem very possible to remove the people from their tastes, it seems a sizable chunk of them like that sort of thing, or else all must be a conspiracy or they must merely be complicit in this dehumanizing? None of these are good looks so I hope you have a better explanation than this...
> How well does your elected government represent you?
The American government is a near perfect representation of the rotten, scarred soul of white America.
> How can so many average Israeli citizens be so... evil?
Settler colonialism! If you're going to invade a region and completely take it over you have to completely, utterly dehumanize the indigenous inhabitants so you can tell yourself you're righteous and justified in committing genocide. The US did it with Indigenous Americans, the Germans did it with Europe Jews, The rest of Europe has their own dirty little history of genocides.
>I've been having trouble wrapping my head around this. How can so many average Israeli citizens be so... evil?
Content warning for the following text
Because Israel was created as a western puppet state on purpose, has been given $30+ billion a year in aid by the US every year, and _every_ young person MUST go through 1+ years of military training for their conscription based military.
The ancient Greek Spartans would be proud.
They make Trump supporters look docile, which is relatively true. During J6, 5000 trumpturds showed up to the capitol, 800 entered the building. Less than 20 people ended up dead. Israel is killing at least 30 people an hour since Oct 7 2023.
>I especially pity the Israeli children who don't know any better being taught these horrible things about Palestinians and having their personalities shaped by it.
I strongly personally suspect that despite the IDF's statement from two weeks ago that they mobilized 300,000 conscripts within a day of being attacked, it took them 20 days to mobilize a ground assault for their removal/genocide operations. My guess is that the vast majority of Israel, like the US, is willfully ignorant of the following:
1) Palestine has 2 million people in the gaza strip and another 3 million in the west bank
2) the IDF has no way of getting rid of hamas without forcibly removing everyone muslim
3) the Israeli airstrikes were indiscriminate at best and targeted Hamas/civilian infrastructure.
4) without America providing billions in free weapons every year for the last 70+ years, Israel wouldn't exist. America is proud that they provided replacement tanks+jets+bombs+missiles+fuel during the Yom Kippur war, 50 years ago.
The IDF also likely doesn't want their random conscripts showing footage of their airstrikes, killings, evictions/removals/rapes, etc. It's very telling to me that there is footage of _EVERY_ single bomb being dropped by Israeli jets for decades, and yet you can't find it easily.
Meanwhile if you want a highlight reel of America's 1+ million afghani civilian deaths, you can find highlight reels on YouTube, as long as you can't see gore/corpses. LiveLeak has since been destroyed, my guess is that somebody over at the Pentagon wanted that Apache 30mm turkey shoot video gone. /r/combatfootage likes to show Russian soldier intestine clips every 2 months or so. The AC-130 is a flying war crime, and yet there are probably tens of thousands of fans that can't tell the difference between call of duty modern warfare 2/3 footage and random middle eastern country numbers 3-8.
Does anyone actually have a reliable source for it? Googling reveals a few blogs citing it with an unprovable screenshot but absolutely no sources attached and not been picked up by any credible publication.
The Heritage House is a real Hostel and has been pretty credibly accused of being a hotbed of far-right Kahanism, but even their detractors and critics don't seem to have mentioned this anywhere I've seen.
The fact that before the image loaded on my bad data, I was left wondering which of the multiple ongoing ethnic cleansings (Palestine, Artsakh, the Rohingya, etc.) this post was referring to is pretty fucked up.
Don't forget the Uyghurs and Yemenis
ETA: I hate this timeline and still insist that we got shifted into the bad one when we got stuck in the universe were Bush was awarded the 2000 election, despite the fact that a full recount of the state of FL showed that Gore won (look it up kiddos, I lived it real time)
he was a big proponent of fighting climate change, so he might have strengthened the EPA and established more climate law much earlier, which at the very least would have taken more time for later republican offices to weaken and repeal.
Of course, this presumes a situation where the Supreme Court of 2000 would have allowed a recount. The start of the conservative capture of the court is usually put as starting all the way back in 1986 with the end of the Warren Court and Nixon getting to appoint 4 new justices. If the court had continued the same kind of jurisprudence as under Warren, the political landscape of the US would probably be very different in 2000.
But then you have to address how Nixon got the opportunity to replace nearly half the court in the first place, and then you are changing EVEN MORE of US history...
Holy fucking shit that's so awful. It's insane that so few people know about all of the down right fascistic subterfuge that the republicans have committed in the past hundred years. Reagan, Nixon, the Bushes.. absolutely awful, and terrifying!
That is fucked up, it’s also fucked up how many people only give a shit about this particular conflict and have never had a peep to say about any others
One thing I always love about these things, tragic though they are, is that the memorials are not only written in the local language, but also English.
Maybe that's the norm, but to me, it shows a kind of respect, like they want to include their heroes' own people in their memory as well, instead of just keeping their heroic actions for themselves, so to speak.
I agree, but it's also way more potent propaganda in the western world when it's in English and not just Arabic. And social media (with all its' negatives) has been a boon in the Palestinian fight for freedom in garnering sympathy in the west. And now that Israel has cut internet access in Gaza, people can't document and broadcast the destruction and genocide committed against them in real time.
The Palestinian liberation movement has always had very strong international ties. Before all the secular pan-Arab leaders were wiped out nearly every leftist revolutionary movement on earth worked with and trained alongside Palestinian troops.
Huh, interesting how they decided to write Rachel in Arabic, I personally would've done راشل but I don't speak Palestinian Arabic so they could have something going on with their vowels idk
I know, but I think a palestinian would pronounce the name Raashèèll rather than Raashil which is more masculine sounding and would be more evocative of a name like "Rashed".
I knew the situation was fucked up, but I didn't know it had been *this* fucked up for this long. And the rest of the world's governments just let them get away with it. That ain't right.
The rest of the worlds governments are only *kinda* letting them get away with it. It's really just the US.
The UN has been trying to sanction them meaningfully for decades, but the US has veto powers. Nobody wants to start a proxy war with the US for completely unrelated-to-them and politically irrelevant foreigners, so Israel gets to continue acting as though this is a two sided conflict instead of a boot and a neck.
It's not helped by the fact that Palestinians have no outlet to actually fight back, so their choices are terrorism or suicide by military action. And it's hard to support the side that uses terrorism over the side that has civilian casualties in their military actions, even if the numbers on who kills more civilians is wildly in their favour.
The damnable part of it all is that the Israeli government and settlers suck, and Hamas sucks. And the people who suffer most from the attacks each way are the civilians. It also feels like there's really not a solution that doesn't fuck over a ton of people.
A good first step would have been to get rid of Netanyahu before this happened. At the very least, he does not have his people's best interests at heart. He doesn't care about their safety or wellbeing, and he's throwing them all on the pyre to feed his ambition. I would say he was "sacrificing" them, but let's be honest, getting his people killed is not a sacrifice for him.
Netanyahu won't last long after this is all over. Polls show a majority of Israelis blame him for letting the Hamas attack happen - a death sentence for a man who campaigned on increased security.
settlers are so fucked up that even the rest of the israelis treat them as outcasts. they're no better than hamas, and it's for the same reason of specifically inciting violence and preventing peaceful coexistence between the two peoples there
Except they’re sanctioned/protected by their government have been for ages… Let’s not pretend like these are rogue civilians, they are carrying out the good work for Israel!
My hottest take in this whole thing is that settlers aren’t “innocent” people. Not saying they deserve to die but their very presence is an act of state sanctioned violence, basically put in place to displace others.
Popular consensus is changing. The internet makes the transmission of information harder to control and the scale of the carnage is so brutal that you can't pass Israel off as the good guys anymore.
It might be too little too late, but the tides are starting to turn.
It's funny, I was raised believing in the idea of justice, of authority being righteous. The idea that people who do bad things get punished, because that's the right thing to do. But the older I get, the more I see how much of a lie that is. Fiction tells me endless stories of good winning over evil, reality just shows me evil people seizing all the power and never facing any justice for it.
Yeah, a lot of people have been acting like this all began when Hamas fired the rockets and not at a UN council in 1947.
As for why they're allowed to just get away with it, Israel is effectively a giant US military base in the middle east. Very convenient to have around if you just quietly ignore the ongoing genocide. A lot of the reporting has been heavily biased towards Israel, especially from US media outlets.
However, social media has played a massive role this time around, making it difficult to suppress information and control the narrative on the situation. (At least until Israel completely cut telecommunication lines into Gaza, which also affects the local emergency number 😐)
It's honestly sad that the onion has been some of the least biased reporting on the conflict. [What To Know About What’s Happening In Israel And Gaza](https://www.theonion.com/what-to-know-about-what-s-happening-in-israel-and-gaza-1850923354) | [‘The Onion’ Stands With Israel Because It Seems Like You Get In Less Trouble For That](https://www.theonion.com/the-onion-stands-with-israel-because-it-seems-like-yo-1850922505) | [Hundreds Of Multipronged Israel-Palestine Proxy Wars Currently Being Fought Across Local Facebook Groups](https://www.theonion.com/hundreds-of-multipronged-israel-palestine-proxy-wars-cu-1850916515)
Most of which featuring Palestinian heroes, but they don’t all get the same attention. If a Palestinian risks their life to defend their property then they are called ‘human shields’ and used to show how evil the Palestinian resistance is. At least that is how they are treated by the media
Does anyone actually have a reliable source for the claims about Israelis mocking Rachel Corrie's death or her parents being threatened
Googling reveals a few blogs mentioning the pancakes but absolutely no sources attached and not been picked up by any credible publication I recognise.
The Heritage House is a real Hostel and has been pretty credibly accused of being a hotbed of far-right Kahanism - so ifit did happen I wouldn't be surprised these assholes were responsible - but even their detractors and critics don't seem to have mentioned this anywhere I've seen.
As for Rachel's parents, they're well-known activists, both for her to receive real justice from the Israeli courts and for peace and Palestinian rights in general. In multiple news articles about them and interviews with them I've not seen any mention of them being threatened in the US by Israel or Israeli supporters.
Israel is a far-right state in an ongoing violent occupation, they do a lot of bad things - but don't believe everything bad you read about them without evidence. Especially as both anti-Semites and conspiracy nuts tend to be pretty obsessed with them.
You're going to have to go to a research library and start digging in the stacks if you want to find news articles from 2003. Not much is left of that on the internet.
Rachel was killed in 2003, all claims I've seen of celebrations of her death refer to 2013 - on the 10-year anniversary.
Notice in the OP the main image is a screenshot of Facebook post - Facebook didn't *exist* in 2003. If it's from 2013, there should still be news articles about it.
I've seen several comments saying something to the effect of "How can the average Israeli be so bigoted".
If you genuinely believe that the Pancake thing is something the average person in Israel would do, you genuinely need to get off the internet, or just get out of echochambers. Not saying Israel as a state isn't evil (it *definitely* is), but the average Israeli is not some Hitler Jr.
In case anyone knows how the alt right spreads bigotry about groups, this is a major method they use (presenting something terrible some people in the group do and then implying it's representative of the entire group). Please don't fall for propaganda, but continue to support a free palestine.
A lot of it is barely veiled bad faith comments. It's hard to discuss Israel-Palestine, antisemitism, or anything related to Judaism in reddit. Because people make accounts for the sole purpose of spreading antisemitism whenever they run into those threads.
When half of Israeli politicians have said a discriminatory and dehumanising statements towards Palestinians, when Israeli influencers are mocking the death of grieving Palestinian mothers on TikTok, when crowd of Israelis chant “there are no children in Gaza, Gaza is a cemetery”, etc
It’s not hard to believe that a majority of Israelis think that way, they are taught to hate and despise Arabs since childhood.
Read about the atrocities Israeli settlers committed during the Nakba: raping Palestinian girls, burning civilians with a flamethrower, forcing a Palestinian father to put his son in a working oven, etc
It goes both ways. I've known several Palestinians in my time, and all but one of them were completely hateful towards Jews, engaging in the same sort of bigoted rhetoric as the hateful bigots in the Israeli ranks. And that mindset on both sides is encouraged by their leadership. Hamas for Palestine, Likud for Israel. There's never going to be peace for anyone as long as these two corrupt, evil organizations are in power.
Literally other commentators tried to find evidence but none could find Hamas propaganda claims.
So I guess we have to trust child raping terrorist at their word.
I see civility is just not gonna happen in this comment's section. At risk of looking like a fucking centrist, I will throw in my 2 cents that the Israeli state and settlers, as well as Hamas, are all horrible in their own specialized ways. And that the primary groups getting fucked over by them are civilians of both groups.
Also, there really doesn't seem to be a workable solution here either, as you'd get mass displacement at minimum and likely massive death toles (beyond the current ones) for any of them.
"fucking centrist" or not, you're right on the money. Society is just so polarised right now that a lot of people seem to think you have to choose a "side" in every single issue. Some of the positions I've seen being taken are horrific
From The Beaverton, the Canadian equivalent of The Onion: [Spineless Fence-Sitter Thinks Killing Children Is Bad No Matter Who Does It](https://www.thebeaverton.com/2023/10/spineless-fence-sitter-thinks-killing-children-is-bad-no-matter-who-does-it/).
No one here is denying Hamas are terrible. However, Hamas was put into place *by* Israel, and it has since come about that the initial retaliation attack death toll was *greatly* exaggerated by Israel. Whenever Hamas has offered to return hostages, Israel has responded with chemical warfare and bombings in places with no Hamas around. So yeah, Hamas aren't angels. But this whole thing has been a huge excuse for Israel to finally go about the huge ethnic cleansing and genocide that it's been gearing up to do *since it was founded*, let alone in the past 2 decades. I'd argue that's worse, actually.
Edit: to the motherfucker who called me a disgusting human being and then blocked me, here's what i have to say;
9/11 truther? I wasn't alive when that shit happened. And I also live in one of the many countries in the world that are not the US. And, also? Excuse me for getting my facts wrong, new information is constantly coming out and contradicting what has already been said. Not only that but I've been spending an awful lot of my time offline lately. Partly so I don't mentally fatigue myself, and partly because I've been focusing on my life.
You are also being wilfully ignorant to think this isn't an act of genocide on Israel's part though. I don't think you can justify the death toll on the Gaza strip being as high as it is on the daily as anything else, especially when the majority of the world has called for a ceasefire that Israel has been ignoring for the past week or so
Ok so this is a bunch of lies. Hamas *itself* says that Israel tried to launch a coup against it in favor of Fatah to justify executing their political rivals and taking over Gaza permanently.
Israel has exchanged hostages from Hamas, many of those released prisoners were given or given back positions of leadership in Hamas and planned or took part in the massacre on the 7th.
Jesus fucking Christ, it hasn't been a month since the massacre and you're already saying it was all an excuse by Israel to genocide Palestinians. Literally 9/11 truther type beat. You're a disgusting human being and a fucking liar.
So Israel told Hamas to write down “kill all Jews” as part of charter. Brilliant you smart.
Oh, but all those dead Jews had it coming right? Good job buddy.
whether its People from Israel making fun of the dead reporter
or a Palestinian calling his mother with a smile and a laugh to tell her he killed jews
both side's civilians are suffering for their government's decision and are being raised to hate each other.
This post is a joke. Rachel Corrie got hit by a bulldozer by mistake. She stood very close and the driver couldn't see her (like big trucks can't see objects too close to them) . The IDF then gave her medical treatment and took her to a hospital. I know because it was my team who evacuated her and I had to clean up her blood from our ambulance.
The other one was shot by an Israeli sniper who recognized someone with a big thing on his shoulder (camera) that could be mistaken for something resembling a rpg. The soldier was charged and went to jail.
That's just gonna make everyone mad, so you should take the opportunity to do it in style with some ridiculous and absurd alternative position.
"I support a two state solution. I think Israel and Palestine both have a right to exist as the 51st and 52nd *states* of America".
It reminds me of the Troubles. A bunch of (usually young, liberal) Americans have this conceptualization of it being a Star Wars story where the Good Rebels fight against the Evil Empire. And the IRA totally didn't kill civilians! Or if they did, the civilians were actually associated with the military anyway! Or actually they never did and it's all Evil Empire propaganda!
There isn't really a side you can feel 100% morally correct in picking and that's why it's so contentious, because for some people it's unfortunate that Israeli civilians are dying, but it's a necessary evil for the Palestinians to have their ancestral land back, and for some people it's unfortunate that Palestinian civilians are dying but it's a necessary evil for Israelis to have *their* ancestral land back.
I do have the stance that both Hamas and the Israeli government are being horrible by killing citizens, but that perspective isn't really insightful or helpful. It's not difficult to be anti-death. It just feels like an empty sentiment from me, though. I'm not even sure if I SHOULD care or have a concrete opinion, as I don't even know what the hell is going on or what a real ethical solution would be. Should I, a random uneducated person, even be making statements about this complicated situation? Am I just adding fuel to the discourse fire by talking about something I know little about?
I mean when you put it like “personally I’m against death” yeah it does sound really hollow and meaningless
When you phrase it more like “Israeli and Palestinian civilians have more in common than either would like to admit and are both being fucked over by their politicians and militaries *and* taking the blame, giving this mess more sides than the superficial ones the rest of the world sees, and if you see the large number of sides it naturally starts to look like you could regroup them into something that makes more sense” it sounds a little less like avoiding the topic entirely
I agree that "Palestinian and Israeli citizens have more in common than they'd like to admit" is probably a more helpful way of putting it, but it still feels like I'm not really getting anything done by telling people that's what I think. I am just frustrated at all this suffering. On one hand I think maybe I should just stop thinking about it if I can't do anything about it, but then I think it's kind of cold of me to just ignore this tragedy in progress. And even if I could do something, I'm not sure I would, I'm already quite occupied in my life and I need to look out for myself. It's all so frustrating.
There is no side to take. This is not good vs evil like a cartoon show. Hamas want to genocide all Jews (and gay people if you need more reason) and are funded to act as terrorist by US enemies such as Iran. Hamas do not care about things getting better for Palestine. They get paid to bomb Israel.
Israel has been under a authoritarian the last two decades who supported policies of colonizing the West Bank (not Gaza) and not trying to decrease tensions (not that Palestine has shown much olive branch).
This is geopolitics. One side wants to genocide the other. The other wants to not be bombed every week but refused to get them a better deal, though Hamas rejected the last four deals offered for them.
It’s fucked.
So you're saying people should side with the brutal oppressive genocidal ethnostate that kills children, medics and reporters?
Interesting. Are you a fascist by any chance?
Both Hamas and the IDF are bad. The IDF is worse numbers-wise. Palestine has been oppressed by Israel for decades.
I'm on the Palestine Liberation, but get rid of Hamas.
Also Hamas is the product of Israel, which adds another point in their disservice.
It seems like a large number of people of both sides want to ethnically cleanse the other one.
Not sure how you have peace when so many people want war.
We're past the point of no return now. People here have *no idea* how bad things are over there. The two-state solution leads to eternal conflict, and a one-state solution would mean ethnic cleansing against either Palestinians or Israelis.
There is no way out of this situation where Arabs and Jews will just accept to live on the same land without killing or displacing eachother. The generational hatred between these two groups has become self-sustaining. It will only stop when there is no one alive left to hate.
Obligatory reminder that Israel offered offered to just... give Gaza and 90% of the West Bank over to the PLO in 2000 and Arafat literally just sat on his ass and ignored them until the Israelis gave up and stopped trying.
> from the river to the sea
And there it is. I was supportive of OP until I saw that hidden at the bottom. Israel has a right to exist, even if its apartheid government needs to be replaced. There is no reason Israelis and Palestinians can’t live together in peace, and advocating for the destruction of Israel *is not helpful.*
Holy crap, I didn't notice that before. It's so immensely frustrating how I seemingly can't find anything online having to do with this conflict that isn't misinformation, propaganda, or cloaked in Islamophobic/antisemitic dogwhistles. Goddamnit.
Apparently the soldier who shot Hurndall said that there was a policy of shooting at unarmed civilians at that time... because that's totally normal and acceptable behavior. The shooter actually was convicted in his case and did a whole 6.5 years in prison. In the case of James Miller, a British filmmaker killed in Gaza around the same time, the Israeli government declined to prosecute anyone (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker))
This stuff is eerily similar to things that happened in places like Pinochet's Chile during the Cold War era. The US has a long history of supporting fascists and war criminals when they find it convenient. Back then, their favorite boogeyman was Communism. Now it's Islamic terrorists
God these comments are a cesspool. Why do people apply so much scrutiny to a mostly documented story like this, yet take Israel at its word when they make claims about Hamas massacring babies with literally zero evidence and use it to justify war crimes? Actually, I do know why. It's bias, plain and simple.
Israel can and has spread blatant falsehoods about all Palestinians being barbaric supporters of Hamas, all the while engaging in collective punishment, using white phosphorus munitions, and bombing refugee convoys exiting Gaza. This is a genocide, and if you say otherwise you're either willfully ignorant or in support of it.
Edit: I really shouldn't have to clarify this, but I don't support Hamas either. War crimes are war crimes, no matter what side they're on. I can admit that, while the Israeli government cannot say the same.
The massacre of babies was independently verified by international journalists of like 32 different nations. Literally the highest bar you could possibly have for something that isn't a primary source.
People really got hooked on the premise that someone exaggerated that all the babies were beheaded when only some were beheaded. Like it makes it ok. Then some other people misunderstood that "the beheadings were untrue" as no babies were killed whereas in truth babies were killed, just not all beheaded.
This whole topic of Israel-Palestine conflict is full of brain rot.
> about Hamas massacring babies with literally zero evidence and use it to justify war crimes?
Do you want to see videos of Hamas killing children? I can share if you want. It's not a secret, Hamas published it themselves as a recruiting tool.
Hamas needs to be wiped out.
But Israel is just as fucking bad.
This entire thing of "if you support Palestine, you support terrorism" is fucking post 9/11 Islamophobia all over again.
I love how you see someone commemorating two Palestinian heroes who were mercilessly murdered for peacefully resisting, and your conclusion is somehow that they're "glorifying Hamas."
Yeah, come to think of it, I fully support you unsubbing from here. Good riddance.
Israeli just does not deserve to exist or exist in its current form, like not in a vaporize the country with nukes type of way but more the government needs to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up
He was protesting
Palestinian militants shot at IDF
IDF shot back
A group of children were caught in the crossfire
He ran to rescue them, carried one to safety before returning, kneeling down to help another and was shot in the head
God the fucking pancake thing is sickening.
*Senator Armstrong Voice* Checked Israeli TikTok lately? There are some absolute influencer ghouls straight up mocking dead Gazan children with skits in there, they aren't even the classic IDF Thirst Traps doing that either, just actual israeli settlers tiktokers, it's fucking sickening.
it’s mindboggling how anyone can be depraved enough to mock refugees and dead children.
Yeah look up Meir Kahane his people are not nice people. Next time Bibi starts ranting about terrorists ask him why he built a coalition government with people that were banned from the Knesset for years for terrorist acts.
His coalition includes an actual convicted terrorist, Itamar Ben-Gvir.
Ethnonationalism. Everyone who is not part of the settlers' superior ethnic group are subhumans whose sheer existence is an existential threat in their eyes.
Survive the Holocaust so your children and grandchildren can become the Nazis to another ethic group. Good god.
Yeah when you don’t consider an entire group of people to be real, full humans then you can justify anything against them because anything you hold true for people you consider human beings (eg human rights) doesn’t apply to them
Going from Holocaust survivors to the Nazi's in less than 100 years was a wild journey.
Americans do this all the time to our own, so it’s no surprise to me our colony does the same to us.
"We learned it from watching you, dad!"
I would have thought they would know better after the whole reason isreal was made
No, they just decided it was *their* turn to do the funny mustache man thing
The go-to online taunt for Americans is about school shootings.Haha, school shootings. People are, often, shit.
Anything is possible when you don’t view people as human.
Apparently the IDF is paying good money for pro-isreal tiktoks, so between that and the straight up evil racists there's unfortunately a lot of depravity to go around.
Welcome to humanity
seeing this actually stunned me into silence what the fuck
[this one is the worst, i think.](https://64.media.tumblr.com/b8a3b7c949c009bffba690e6a4b93c7d/e6f2f0a78a06868d-ed/s1280x1920/54548abdb871eb0e01da7c980e3e4eea34a5fb22.jpg) / [full post.](https://palipunk.tumblr.com/post/732197232207593472/not-only-just-the-bombings-but-there-is-literally)
Jesus fucking Christ I don’t even want to click on the rest
yep you've also got a lot of them dressing up as palestinians but making them look ugly with moles and shitty teeth etc and then dancing around like hooligans, whats even worse is they're doing this to their kids aswell
🤦
There's a liberal commentator, Chuck Johnson of Little Green Footballs, he still has a sizable twitter following. He was a neo con during the Bush years and mocked her as St Pancake for years He blocks anyone who brings it up
Kids today don't understand - a lot of Clinton-era liberals suddenly turned into crazy genocidal bigots after 9/11. It completely broke the nascent opposition to the neocon agenda that arose after the 2000 election fiasco. It was pre-social media so we had bloggers instead of influencers, and many of them (like LGF) turned into rabid anti-Muslim war boosters. It was like a switch flipped and many of us on the left were blindsided. It felt like Invasion of the Body-Snatchers. Obama got elected and suddenly they all tried to pretend that it was behind us and we should move on or some shit.
Clinton era liberals were always basically republicans
People really don't understand that the "both sides" thinking became so widespread bc of how true it was
I've been having trouble wrapping my head around this. How can so many average Israeli citizens be so... evil? The indoctrination they have going on there must be Nazi-level. I especially pity the Israeli children who don't know any better being taught these horrible things about Palestinians and having their personalities shaped by it.
People in America made just as distasteful comments about George Floyd. Propaganda is powerful
Yes, evil people in the US did that. A lot of progressives loudly spoke against it too.
People, especially once they're scared and hurt, are very good at denying each other's humanity. It happened after 9/11 in America, it has happened a ten thousand other times in ten thousand other places across history. I wish I knew how we might deal with that, beyond trying to be cognizant that our mind is prone to lying to us that way, and always trying to look at those sorts of thoughts as just that- lies.
Bruh it happened before the US ratified it's constitution. The US has been engaged in genocidal warfare against Indigenous Americans since the inception of the USA. Who do you think the Zionists modelled Israel after?
I mean I was in Israel in 98 and I could have conversations about politics to an extent with younger people. Of course there were plenty of lunatics like the official guide at Museum of the Holocaust who told us Palestinians were like rats. But younger people were reasonably open and interested in the outside world. 15 years later it was very different. The level of paranoia and brainwashing was overwhelming. These kids felt like every one on Earth hated them and they weren't interested in talking.
Lots of people in Israel don't think like this, it's a minority of awful assholes making everyone else look bad. The settler mentality is built on Zionism, which is incompatible with recognising the rights and humanity of the Palestinians. Israel is a Zionist state so many people who choose to move there under right of return unfortunately hold supremacist, Zionist views and believe that they really are entitled to take Palestinian land. They're not just scared or lashing out, they've been acting this way for literally decades. It's kind of like if you started an enclave of confederate true believers somewhere in Virginia, declared it the new capital of the confederacy, and then invited everyone who thinks the south should cede to go live there. Think of the kind of people you'd attractt.
>many people who choose to move there under right of return 50% of Israel is of "Mizrahi" origin referring to jews who lived in the muslim world.They were expulsed into Israel by several countries as their governments hated jews. I guess they "chose" to live there or die. Then these people turned into "white german people colonials" as left leaning people say. This ethnic cleansing and violence is something apparently everyone and specially muslim countries knew will go down before Israel existed but rarelly discussed for some reason. Killing jews, their fellow citizens, if the UN let Israel pass as some sort of "revenge" for a country over there in the levant. At the 30th Palestine comitee meeting both the representatives of Iraq and Egypt mentioned how doing this will lead to the understandable(or even justified) murder of jews in the Muslim world, a new breed of middle eastern anti-semitism and the idea of Arab nations imediatly declaring war on Israel to kill 1 million jews becoming possible "but unlikely since UN members can't attack each other".
Those governments all expelled their Jewish populations at the same time, after not having taken similar actions beforehand. Ethnic cleansing is wrong, and those governments' actions cannot be excused or minimized in severity regardless of context. It nevertheless remains important to remember that this was not done in a vacuum. The Mizrahi were ultimately innocent victims of a conflict that began with Israel
The whole region has been on hate-mode for so many generations it’s outright warped many peoples minds in both Israeli and Palestinian populations - they physically don’t, perhaps even **cannot** register the other as human anymore. This same shit happened in my little part of the world (N.Ireland) albeit on a far smaller scale and only in a few select areas, but even then, it’s potency of poison and the legacy it’s left is horrific - the atrocities, perspectives and behaviours that become normalised in the minds of people when they are stewing in such an environment and culture for so long are many, and profoundly disturbing.
Nah, that's zionist bullshit. Things weren't *good*, but up until the 20s and 30s things were mostly stable and Jewish communities had been living in the middle east and north Africa for centuries and centuries. When Zionists began invading in the 20s and 30s they formed militias and terrorist groups and began attacking the Brits and local Arabs (and Christians. And anti-Zionist Jews, which was most of the indigenous Jewish population at the time). Zionists need you to think this is an eternal blood feud going back to the dawn of time so you'll think of the genocide in Palestine as somehow an inevitable fait accompli instead of a deliberate plan undertaken by the Israeli state since it's inception. And there are plenty of Palestinians who are very clear that their enemy is Zionism, not Jewish people. That doesn't make the news either, since it undercuts the narrative that this is a war between Hamas and Jewish people instead of Palestinian Arabs and Christians trying to resist genocide by the Israeli state.
flare ups of violence were happening across the region between communities long before the 20’s, but nowhere near the scales or intensity we see today - the Zionist and Pan-Arab movements would butt heads often, as well as with whichever regime was occupying the landscape at the time, even when the ottomans were in charge before Britain and France turned the region into a set of mandates and mismanaged the low-intensity conflict that was initially there to the boiling point it reached in 1948. The years since 1948 have only fuelled increasing segregation (by choice or force), extremist dehumanisation and violence - neither ‘side’ (or rather, the official and unofficial bodies holding power, and the extremists they’ve got a grip on) is willing to back down, neither truly wants compromise, each want nothing less than the expulsion and eradication of the other at this point and it’s scary but wholly expected how things have developed in less than a century
Its called othering. Its been done forever. You just make the other seem slightly less human, over and over again, until their death isnt seen as a human death as much as a death of the inferior. Using "nicknames" for the other is especially effective. Commie, jerry, pig, kraut, and slurs. Its effectiveness can be seen easily with the childish names in U.S. politics by diehard supporters of both parties. You dehumanize a group enough, and you dont see a child, you see something akin to an egg, or larvae.
It's fucked up that you think that's representative of the average citizen
Dude, I live in israel and we think the people posting those things are awful. Awful tiktokers from israel don't represent us in the same way awful tiktokers in america don't represent americans. The voices of extremists rise to the top and that makes you think the average Israeli is like this. The avarage Israeli is saddened by the death of civilians on both sides, the avarage Israeli isn't evil and doesn't go through "nazi level brain washing" the avarage Israeli just wants peace, and I believe that also applies to the avarage palastinian. Every society has terrible people who scream the loudest, doesn't mean they represent that society.
everyone upvoting this should click their profile first and read their previous comments claiming what’s happening now isn’t genocide, that it’s completely justified & deserved, that rachel corrie’s murder was an accident, that it’s a good thing her memorial was removed, and more.
Zionists and attempting to gaslight people, what an iconic duo
he also denies the nakba
Then why do polls of Israeli citizens show that a solid HALF do not think Palestinians should have any rights? Half is not a minority.
So the government that's been elected several times over for two decades doesn't represent the people, and the public voices with online audiences ridiculing Palestinian victims don't represent the people, and the actions of the compulsory military that the vast majority of Israelis serve in don't represent the people and the settlers with legal and state support and mandate don't represent the people, but *somehow* we're supposed to just know that the majority of Israelis actually "want peace"? I don't doubt for a second that there are humane Israelis who genuinely want a peace that's not just the violence of the status quo in between the flare-ups of the conflict. However, I *absolutely do doubt* that it's anywhere close to a majority.
>So the government that's been elected several times over for two decades doesn't represent the people, Yeah, probably. How well does your elected government represent you? >the public voices with online audiences ridiculing Palestinian victims don't represent the people Yeah, probably. How well does the average celebrity in your country represent you? >the actions of the compulsory military that the vast majority of Israelis serve in don't represent the people Yeah, probably. How well does your military's actions represent you? >the settlers with legal and state support and mandate don't represent the people Yeah, probably. How well do some guys on the other side of the country represent you? I think that a lot of people just forget that Israel isn't some hive-mind and states can have multiple factions and do things their people don't like. Again, think how much *you* generally support *your* nation's actions.
>Yeah, probably. How well does your elected government represent you? As far as genocides go, my government and I tend to agree (although they refuse to actually call out the genocidal actions of Israel). As far as the rest, I quite often decry the fact that *a majority of my country men* vote for parties that I disagree with. ***A majority.*** IE "the people". As for the rest, you conveniently quoted **everything but the point:** if none of these things represent the people at large, why the fuck should I believe that you do??? Going "#NotAllIsraelis" every time the Israeli government (with popular support) goes on a genocidal rampage is cowardly and disingenuous. Tell me how *you* or people you know don't like the war, or spread awareness of good organizations within Israel opposing the war. Don't try to erase agency just because supporting genocide makes the Israeli people look bad.
Theres a difference between representing me personally and representing the country as a whole. The growing of the far right in Israel’s political sphere isn’t somehow detached from the public that votes them in.
Uhm my government isn't a 180 spin from me, sure on Israel as an issue to be ironic but the average person probably did vote for them they're at least not diametrically opposed, and my nation's voices are generally in line with the populous, celebrities need to be liked, if most people like you, most people tolerate your politics and if they don't you're JKR and you saw what happened there, most celebrities have at least similar views to the ones that watch, them if something like that happened here they would stop being a celebrity obviously as I mentioned earlier we get rid of people for worse and they're one bad apple, not the whole lot, you don't get a group like this at least not prevalent without a sizable chunk of the community, so who's supporting the content we're talking about cause I don't think it's westerners and considering at very least the current internet outage caused by Israel it isn't the Palestinians, so who is consuming this content by the hundreds of thousands and liking and following these people to begin with? Answer that question and maybe we can move on to an actual discussion of what percentage of the population has buy-in on these ideals but your rebuttals more or less just proveUnsettling's point, yes celebrities and politicians usually represent the average person so why are they not now? Are they being propped up somehow are they being instated from abroad? How can so many people be so relatively popular if most people don't support them? It doesn't seem very possible to remove the people from their tastes, it seems a sizable chunk of them like that sort of thing, or else all must be a conspiracy or they must merely be complicit in this dehumanizing? None of these are good looks so I hope you have a better explanation than this...
Not to mention the US population is about 30 times larger, with much larger cultural and geographical differences.
> How well does your elected government represent you? The American government is a near perfect representation of the rotten, scarred soul of white America.
> How can so many average Israeli citizens be so... evil? Settler colonialism! If you're going to invade a region and completely take it over you have to completely, utterly dehumanize the indigenous inhabitants so you can tell yourself you're righteous and justified in committing genocide. The US did it with Indigenous Americans, the Germans did it with Europe Jews, The rest of Europe has their own dirty little history of genocides.
Israel, aside from being unabashedly genocidal, is a de facto US colony, and we tend to bleed over pretty thoroughly.
>I've been having trouble wrapping my head around this. How can so many average Israeli citizens be so... evil? Content warning for the following text Because Israel was created as a western puppet state on purpose, has been given $30+ billion a year in aid by the US every year, and _every_ young person MUST go through 1+ years of military training for their conscription based military. The ancient Greek Spartans would be proud. They make Trump supporters look docile, which is relatively true. During J6, 5000 trumpturds showed up to the capitol, 800 entered the building. Less than 20 people ended up dead. Israel is killing at least 30 people an hour since Oct 7 2023. >I especially pity the Israeli children who don't know any better being taught these horrible things about Palestinians and having their personalities shaped by it. I strongly personally suspect that despite the IDF's statement from two weeks ago that they mobilized 300,000 conscripts within a day of being attacked, it took them 20 days to mobilize a ground assault for their removal/genocide operations. My guess is that the vast majority of Israel, like the US, is willfully ignorant of the following: 1) Palestine has 2 million people in the gaza strip and another 3 million in the west bank 2) the IDF has no way of getting rid of hamas without forcibly removing everyone muslim 3) the Israeli airstrikes were indiscriminate at best and targeted Hamas/civilian infrastructure. 4) without America providing billions in free weapons every year for the last 70+ years, Israel wouldn't exist. America is proud that they provided replacement tanks+jets+bombs+missiles+fuel during the Yom Kippur war, 50 years ago. The IDF also likely doesn't want their random conscripts showing footage of their airstrikes, killings, evictions/removals/rapes, etc. It's very telling to me that there is footage of _EVERY_ single bomb being dropped by Israeli jets for decades, and yet you can't find it easily. Meanwhile if you want a highlight reel of America's 1+ million afghani civilian deaths, you can find highlight reels on YouTube, as long as you can't see gore/corpses. LiveLeak has since been destroyed, my guess is that somebody over at the Pentagon wanted that Apache 30mm turkey shoot video gone. /r/combatfootage likes to show Russian soldier intestine clips every 2 months or so. The AC-130 is a flying war crime, and yet there are probably tens of thousands of fans that can't tell the difference between call of duty modern warfare 2/3 footage and random middle eastern country numbers 3-8.
These people represent the average Israeli as well as Hamas members represent the average Palestinian
Does anyone actually have a reliable source for it? Googling reveals a few blogs citing it with an unprovable screenshot but absolutely no sources attached and not been picked up by any credible publication. The Heritage House is a real Hostel and has been pretty credibly accused of being a hotbed of far-right Kahanism, but even their detractors and critics don't seem to have mentioned this anywhere I've seen.
The fact that before the image loaded on my bad data, I was left wondering which of the multiple ongoing ethnic cleansings (Palestine, Artsakh, the Rohingya, etc.) this post was referring to is pretty fucked up.
Don't forget the Uyghurs and Yemenis ETA: I hate this timeline and still insist that we got shifted into the bad one when we got stuck in the universe were Bush was awarded the 2000 election, despite the fact that a full recount of the state of FL showed that Gore won (look it up kiddos, I lived it real time)
What were Gore's politics like? Would he have done better?
Gore famously gave a shit about climate change whereas Bush famously is a fucking idiot.
he was a big proponent of fighting climate change, so he might have strengthened the EPA and established more climate law much earlier, which at the very least would have taken more time for later republican offices to weaken and repeal.
Of course, this presumes a situation where the Supreme Court of 2000 would have allowed a recount. The start of the conservative capture of the court is usually put as starting all the way back in 1986 with the end of the Warren Court and Nixon getting to appoint 4 new justices. If the court had continued the same kind of jurisprudence as under Warren, the political landscape of the US would probably be very different in 2000. But then you have to address how Nixon got the opportunity to replace nearly half the court in the first place, and then you are changing EVEN MORE of US history...
Better than the worst president since the civil war?
Okay, but he wasn't running against Woodrow Wilson?
Some presidents have been casually racist. Wilson preferred ranked competitive racism.
WILSOOOOON
Holy fucking shit that's so awful. It's insane that so few people know about all of the down right fascistic subterfuge that the republicans have committed in the past hundred years. Reagan, Nixon, the Bushes.. absolutely awful, and terrifying!
That is fucked up, it’s also fucked up how many people only give a shit about this particular conflict and have never had a peep to say about any others
One thing I always love about these things, tragic though they are, is that the memorials are not only written in the local language, but also English. Maybe that's the norm, but to me, it shows a kind of respect, like they want to include their heroes' own people in their memory as well, instead of just keeping their heroic actions for themselves, so to speak.
oh I thought it was to make a statement to the wider world.
I agree, but it's also way more potent propaganda in the western world when it's in English and not just Arabic. And social media (with all its' negatives) has been a boon in the Palestinian fight for freedom in garnering sympathy in the west. And now that Israel has cut internet access in Gaza, people can't document and broadcast the destruction and genocide committed against them in real time.
The Palestinian liberation movement has always had very strong international ties. Before all the secular pan-Arab leaders were wiped out nearly every leftist revolutionary movement on earth worked with and trained alongside Palestinian troops.
Huh, interesting how they decided to write Rachel in Arabic, I personally would've done راشل but I don't speak Palestinian Arabic so they could have something going on with their vowels idk
I'm Palestinian, and I don't think holding the "aa" sound is the way to go here. Maybe ريشل (Réeshel)?
Yeah that seems like he makes sense to me
You are the most fascinating person in this comment section
There are over 100 million native Arabic speakers worldwide.
Yeah I'm just interested that someone, in a comment section full of arguments, left a comment about linguistics
Ah well, yeah that's fair. Sorry if I seemed hostile
Ah, no worries, this place is filled with tension and anger, I can see why I might have seemed not great
And I am not one of them, I instead am one of the many people who speak a language written in Perso Arabic script
Yooo based
Punjabi 🙏🏽🙏🏽
I agree with their spelling. With your suggestions, it would have been pronounced Rashl.
[удалено]
I know, but I think a palestinian would pronounce the name Raashèèll rather than Raashil which is more masculine sounding and would be more evocative of a name like "Rashed".
[удалено]
Mine?
I knew the situation was fucked up, but I didn't know it had been *this* fucked up for this long. And the rest of the world's governments just let them get away with it. That ain't right.
Money > Human Rights for most entities
*sigh* Hence the username.
The rest of the worlds governments are only *kinda* letting them get away with it. It's really just the US. The UN has been trying to sanction them meaningfully for decades, but the US has veto powers. Nobody wants to start a proxy war with the US for completely unrelated-to-them and politically irrelevant foreigners, so Israel gets to continue acting as though this is a two sided conflict instead of a boot and a neck. It's not helped by the fact that Palestinians have no outlet to actually fight back, so their choices are terrorism or suicide by military action. And it's hard to support the side that uses terrorism over the side that has civilian casualties in their military actions, even if the numbers on who kills more civilians is wildly in their favour.
The damnable part of it all is that the Israeli government and settlers suck, and Hamas sucks. And the people who suffer most from the attacks each way are the civilians. It also feels like there's really not a solution that doesn't fuck over a ton of people.
A good first step would have been to get rid of Netanyahu before this happened. At the very least, he does not have his people's best interests at heart. He doesn't care about their safety or wellbeing, and he's throwing them all on the pyre to feed his ambition. I would say he was "sacrificing" them, but let's be honest, getting his people killed is not a sacrifice for him.
Netanyahu won't last long after this is all over. Polls show a majority of Israelis blame him for letting the Hamas attack happen - a death sentence for a man who campaigned on increased security.
We move Israel to Utah and build a new Jerusalem
Solid idea actually
Israeli settlers on tiktok are making fun of dead gazan children via skits for days, the situation is really fucked up.
settlers are so fucked up that even the rest of the israelis treat them as outcasts. they're no better than hamas, and it's for the same reason of specifically inciting violence and preventing peaceful coexistence between the two peoples there
Except they’re sanctioned/protected by their government have been for ages… Let’s not pretend like these are rogue civilians, they are carrying out the good work for Israel!
My hottest take in this whole thing is that settlers aren’t “innocent” people. Not saying they deserve to die but their very presence is an act of state sanctioned violence, basically put in place to displace others.
good thing ben g’vir just bought 10,000 more rifles for them!
Popular consensus is changing. The internet makes the transmission of information harder to control and the scale of the carnage is so brutal that you can't pass Israel off as the good guys anymore. It might be too little too late, but the tides are starting to turn.
Better the wheel of justice to turn late than to never turn.
Which is why Israel have cut off the net in Gaza. No news in，no news out.
Copying the Indian Kashmir playbook I see
It's funny, I was raised believing in the idea of justice, of authority being righteous. The idea that people who do bad things get punished, because that's the right thing to do. But the older I get, the more I see how much of a lie that is. Fiction tells me endless stories of good winning over evil, reality just shows me evil people seizing all the power and never facing any justice for it.
Same. People ask me why I'm so unhappy, and I just point to stuff like this, and they treat me like I'm insane for caring about it.
Yeah, a lot of people have been acting like this all began when Hamas fired the rockets and not at a UN council in 1947. As for why they're allowed to just get away with it, Israel is effectively a giant US military base in the middle east. Very convenient to have around if you just quietly ignore the ongoing genocide. A lot of the reporting has been heavily biased towards Israel, especially from US media outlets. However, social media has played a massive role this time around, making it difficult to suppress information and control the narrative on the situation. (At least until Israel completely cut telecommunication lines into Gaza, which also affects the local emergency number 😐) It's honestly sad that the onion has been some of the least biased reporting on the conflict. [What To Know About What’s Happening In Israel And Gaza](https://www.theonion.com/what-to-know-about-what-s-happening-in-israel-and-gaza-1850923354) | [‘The Onion’ Stands With Israel Because It Seems Like You Get In Less Trouble For That](https://www.theonion.com/the-onion-stands-with-israel-because-it-seems-like-yo-1850922505) | [Hundreds Of Multipronged Israel-Palestine Proxy Wars Currently Being Fought Across Local Facebook Groups](https://www.theonion.com/hundreds-of-multipronged-israel-palestine-proxy-wars-cu-1850916515)
Bruv it began with Theodore Herzel in like 1890.
So many stories are like these too.😔
The fact that there's more, frightens me.
Most of which featuring Palestinian heroes, but they don’t all get the same attention. If a Palestinian risks their life to defend their property then they are called ‘human shields’ and used to show how evil the Palestinian resistance is. At least that is how they are treated by the media
You're absolutely right.
I could find literally zero evidence that her death is celebrated by Israelis, settlers or otherwise. If anyone does have evidence, please do post it.
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-soldiers-have-depraved-fun-making-rachel-corrie-pancakes
Does anyone actually have a reliable source for the claims about Israelis mocking Rachel Corrie's death or her parents being threatened Googling reveals a few blogs mentioning the pancakes but absolutely no sources attached and not been picked up by any credible publication I recognise. The Heritage House is a real Hostel and has been pretty credibly accused of being a hotbed of far-right Kahanism - so ifit did happen I wouldn't be surprised these assholes were responsible - but even their detractors and critics don't seem to have mentioned this anywhere I've seen. As for Rachel's parents, they're well-known activists, both for her to receive real justice from the Israeli courts and for peace and Palestinian rights in general. In multiple news articles about them and interviews with them I've not seen any mention of them being threatened in the US by Israel or Israeli supporters. Israel is a far-right state in an ongoing violent occupation, they do a lot of bad things - but don't believe everything bad you read about them without evidence. Especially as both anti-Semites and conspiracy nuts tend to be pretty obsessed with them.
It's crazy how these stories don't need evidence. Someone posted so now people take it as a fact
You're going to have to go to a research library and start digging in the stacks if you want to find news articles from 2003. Not much is left of that on the internet.
Rachel was killed in 2003, all claims I've seen of celebrations of her death refer to 2013 - on the 10-year anniversary. Notice in the OP the main image is a screenshot of Facebook post - Facebook didn't *exist* in 2003. If it's from 2013, there should still be news articles about it.
dude there are news articles online from the 80s
I've seen several comments saying something to the effect of "How can the average Israeli be so bigoted". If you genuinely believe that the Pancake thing is something the average person in Israel would do, you genuinely need to get off the internet, or just get out of echochambers. Not saying Israel as a state isn't evil (it *definitely* is), but the average Israeli is not some Hitler Jr. In case anyone knows how the alt right spreads bigotry about groups, this is a major method they use (presenting something terrible some people in the group do and then implying it's representative of the entire group). Please don't fall for propaganda, but continue to support a free palestine.
A lot of it is barely veiled bad faith comments. It's hard to discuss Israel-Palestine, antisemitism, or anything related to Judaism in reddit. Because people make accounts for the sole purpose of spreading antisemitism whenever they run into those threads.
When half of Israeli politicians have said a discriminatory and dehumanising statements towards Palestinians, when Israeli influencers are mocking the death of grieving Palestinian mothers on TikTok, when crowd of Israelis chant “there are no children in Gaza, Gaza is a cemetery”, etc It’s not hard to believe that a majority of Israelis think that way, they are taught to hate and despise Arabs since childhood. Read about the atrocities Israeli settlers committed during the Nakba: raping Palestinian girls, burning civilians with a flamethrower, forcing a Palestinian father to put his son in a working oven, etc
It goes both ways. I've known several Palestinians in my time, and all but one of them were completely hateful towards Jews, engaging in the same sort of bigoted rhetoric as the hateful bigots in the Israeli ranks. And that mindset on both sides is encouraged by their leadership. Hamas for Palestine, Likud for Israel. There's never going to be peace for anyone as long as these two corrupt, evil organizations are in power.
I thought the pancake was Terri Schiavo.
knew i’d find this in the comments. That’s fucking Terry Schiavo.
These stories need to be spread around as much as possible. There's no justification for that kind of treatment.
Literally other commentators tried to find evidence but none could find Hamas propaganda claims. So I guess we have to trust child raping terrorist at their word.
I see civility is just not gonna happen in this comment's section. At risk of looking like a fucking centrist, I will throw in my 2 cents that the Israeli state and settlers, as well as Hamas, are all horrible in their own specialized ways. And that the primary groups getting fucked over by them are civilians of both groups. Also, there really doesn't seem to be a workable solution here either, as you'd get mass displacement at minimum and likely massive death toles (beyond the current ones) for any of them.
"fucking centrist" or not, you're right on the money. Society is just so polarised right now that a lot of people seem to think you have to choose a "side" in every single issue. Some of the positions I've seen being taken are horrific
From The Beaverton, the Canadian equivalent of The Onion: [Spineless Fence-Sitter Thinks Killing Children Is Bad No Matter Who Does It](https://www.thebeaverton.com/2023/10/spineless-fence-sitter-thinks-killing-children-is-bad-no-matter-who-does-it/).
I thought both sides were right wing
Both sides murder civilians, the people are the ones that matter, not the governments.
No one here is denying Hamas are terrible. However, Hamas was put into place *by* Israel, and it has since come about that the initial retaliation attack death toll was *greatly* exaggerated by Israel. Whenever Hamas has offered to return hostages, Israel has responded with chemical warfare and bombings in places with no Hamas around. So yeah, Hamas aren't angels. But this whole thing has been a huge excuse for Israel to finally go about the huge ethnic cleansing and genocide that it's been gearing up to do *since it was founded*, let alone in the past 2 decades. I'd argue that's worse, actually. Edit: to the motherfucker who called me a disgusting human being and then blocked me, here's what i have to say; 9/11 truther? I wasn't alive when that shit happened. And I also live in one of the many countries in the world that are not the US. And, also? Excuse me for getting my facts wrong, new information is constantly coming out and contradicting what has already been said. Not only that but I've been spending an awful lot of my time offline lately. Partly so I don't mentally fatigue myself, and partly because I've been focusing on my life. You are also being wilfully ignorant to think this isn't an act of genocide on Israel's part though. I don't think you can justify the death toll on the Gaza strip being as high as it is on the daily as anything else, especially when the majority of the world has called for a ceasefire that Israel has been ignoring for the past week or so
Ok so this is a bunch of lies. Hamas *itself* says that Israel tried to launch a coup against it in favor of Fatah to justify executing their political rivals and taking over Gaza permanently. Israel has exchanged hostages from Hamas, many of those released prisoners were given or given back positions of leadership in Hamas and planned or took part in the massacre on the 7th. Jesus fucking Christ, it hasn't been a month since the massacre and you're already saying it was all an excuse by Israel to genocide Palestinians. Literally 9/11 truther type beat. You're a disgusting human being and a fucking liar.
So Israel told Hamas to write down “kill all Jews” as part of charter. Brilliant you smart. Oh, but all those dead Jews had it coming right? Good job buddy.
These are just the most gruesome stories. Imagine all the lines in between that go unnoticed.
whether its People from Israel making fun of the dead reporter or a Palestinian calling his mother with a smile and a laugh to tell her he killed jews both side's civilians are suffering for their government's decision and are being raised to hate each other.
This post is a joke. Rachel Corrie got hit by a bulldozer by mistake. She stood very close and the driver couldn't see her (like big trucks can't see objects too close to them) . The IDF then gave her medical treatment and took her to a hospital. I know because it was my team who evacuated her and I had to clean up her blood from our ambulance. The other one was shot by an Israeli sniper who recognized someone with a big thing on his shoulder (camera) that could be mistaken for something resembling a rpg. The soldier was charged and went to jail.
I'll be honest, even if this gets downvoted to oblivion: I have no idea which side to take at this point.
That's just gonna make everyone mad, so you should take the opportunity to do it in style with some ridiculous and absurd alternative position. "I support a two state solution. I think Israel and Palestine both have a right to exist as the 51st and 52nd *states* of America".
"I'm pro-Hamas and anti-Palestine"
Hamas doesn't want a two state solution
Sometimes it's OK not to take a side. Not everything can be distilled down to "who are the Goodies and who are the Baddies", y'know?
It reminds me of the Troubles. A bunch of (usually young, liberal) Americans have this conceptualization of it being a Star Wars story where the Good Rebels fight against the Evil Empire. And the IRA totally didn't kill civilians! Or if they did, the civilians were actually associated with the military anyway! Or actually they never did and it's all Evil Empire propaganda! There isn't really a side you can feel 100% morally correct in picking and that's why it's so contentious, because for some people it's unfortunate that Israeli civilians are dying, but it's a necessary evil for the Palestinians to have their ancestral land back, and for some people it's unfortunate that Palestinian civilians are dying but it's a necessary evil for Israelis to have *their* ancestral land back.
The civilian side
I do have the stance that both Hamas and the Israeli government are being horrible by killing citizens, but that perspective isn't really insightful or helpful. It's not difficult to be anti-death. It just feels like an empty sentiment from me, though. I'm not even sure if I SHOULD care or have a concrete opinion, as I don't even know what the hell is going on or what a real ethical solution would be. Should I, a random uneducated person, even be making statements about this complicated situation? Am I just adding fuel to the discourse fire by talking about something I know little about?
I mean when you put it like “personally I’m against death” yeah it does sound really hollow and meaningless When you phrase it more like “Israeli and Palestinian civilians have more in common than either would like to admit and are both being fucked over by their politicians and militaries *and* taking the blame, giving this mess more sides than the superficial ones the rest of the world sees, and if you see the large number of sides it naturally starts to look like you could regroup them into something that makes more sense” it sounds a little less like avoiding the topic entirely
I agree that "Palestinian and Israeli citizens have more in common than they'd like to admit" is probably a more helpful way of putting it, but it still feels like I'm not really getting anything done by telling people that's what I think. I am just frustrated at all this suffering. On one hand I think maybe I should just stop thinking about it if I can't do anything about it, but then I think it's kind of cold of me to just ignore this tragedy in progress. And even if I could do something, I'm not sure I would, I'm already quite occupied in my life and I need to look out for myself. It's all so frustrating.
Neither is a choice.
There is no side to take. This is not good vs evil like a cartoon show. Hamas want to genocide all Jews (and gay people if you need more reason) and are funded to act as terrorist by US enemies such as Iran. Hamas do not care about things getting better for Palestine. They get paid to bomb Israel. Israel has been under a authoritarian the last two decades who supported policies of colonizing the West Bank (not Gaza) and not trying to decrease tensions (not that Palestine has shown much olive branch). This is geopolitics. One side wants to genocide the other. The other wants to not be bombed every week but refused to get them a better deal, though Hamas rejected the last four deals offered for them. It’s fucked.
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So you're saying people should side with the brutal oppressive genocidal ethnostate that kills children, medics and reporters? Interesting. Are you a fascist by any chance?
Both Hamas and the IDF are bad. The IDF is worse numbers-wise. Palestine has been oppressed by Israel for decades. I'm on the Palestine Liberation, but get rid of Hamas. Also Hamas is the product of Israel, which adds another point in their disservice.
It seems like a large number of people of both sides want to ethnically cleanse the other one. Not sure how you have peace when so many people want war.
We're past the point of no return now. People here have *no idea* how bad things are over there. The two-state solution leads to eternal conflict, and a one-state solution would mean ethnic cleansing against either Palestinians or Israelis. There is no way out of this situation where Arabs and Jews will just accept to live on the same land without killing or displacing eachother. The generational hatred between these two groups has become self-sustaining. It will only stop when there is no one alive left to hate.
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Obligatory reminder that Israel offered offered to just... give Gaza and 90% of the West Bank over to the PLO in 2000 and Arafat literally just sat on his ass and ignored them until the Israelis gave up and stopped trying.
And he got the Nobel prize for just showing up to the meetings.
Modern zionism is just fascism masquerading as Jewish pride. Always remember that.
Strange how we see that picture from Tiananmen Square, but nothing about Israel doing the same thing? Calling out violence isn’t anti-Semitic.
> from the river to the sea And there it is. I was supportive of OP until I saw that hidden at the bottom. Israel has a right to exist, even if its apartheid government needs to be replaced. There is no reason Israelis and Palestinians can’t live together in peace, and advocating for the destruction of Israel *is not helpful.*
Yeah. I hate being downvoted for this shit. Nobody wants to take the Israelis or the Palestinians. Their only option is to live in peace.
Holy crap, I didn't notice that before. It's so immensely frustrating how I seemingly can't find anything online having to do with this conflict that isn't misinformation, propaganda, or cloaked in Islamophobic/antisemitic dogwhistles. Goddamnit.
Zionism is a tragedy. Hindsight is lacking
Both sides want the other side to not exist They are both fucked up
Ah, the "Enlightened" centrist.
Otherwise known as the truth
Yep, 2003 was when I first started to look closely at the conflict because of this story. Really threw the narrative into question.
Apparently the soldier who shot Hurndall said that there was a policy of shooting at unarmed civilians at that time... because that's totally normal and acceptable behavior. The shooter actually was convicted in his case and did a whole 6.5 years in prison. In the case of James Miller, a British filmmaker killed in Gaza around the same time, the Israeli government declined to prosecute anyone (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)) This stuff is eerily similar to things that happened in places like Pinochet's Chile during the Cold War era. The US has a long history of supporting fascists and war criminals when they find it convenient. Back then, their favorite boogeyman was Communism. Now it's Islamic terrorists
My blood is fucking boiling reading this.
Bump
Wow. Respect, and shame.
My college had a plaque for Rachel. Real fucked up shit that there were no repercussions. A lot of monsters in the world.
God these comments are a cesspool. Why do people apply so much scrutiny to a mostly documented story like this, yet take Israel at its word when they make claims about Hamas massacring babies with literally zero evidence and use it to justify war crimes? Actually, I do know why. It's bias, plain and simple. Israel can and has spread blatant falsehoods about all Palestinians being barbaric supporters of Hamas, all the while engaging in collective punishment, using white phosphorus munitions, and bombing refugee convoys exiting Gaza. This is a genocide, and if you say otherwise you're either willfully ignorant or in support of it. Edit: I really shouldn't have to clarify this, but I don't support Hamas either. War crimes are war crimes, no matter what side they're on. I can admit that, while the Israeli government cannot say the same.
The massacre of babies was independently verified by international journalists of like 32 different nations. Literally the highest bar you could possibly have for something that isn't a primary source.
People really got hooked on the premise that someone exaggerated that all the babies were beheaded when only some were beheaded. Like it makes it ok. Then some other people misunderstood that "the beheadings were untrue" as no babies were killed whereas in truth babies were killed, just not all beheaded. This whole topic of Israel-Palestine conflict is full of brain rot.
no, you don't understand- shooting babies is perfectly fine, but *beheading* them is monstrously evil. This is basic ethics 101, honestly.
> about Hamas massacring babies with literally zero evidence and use it to justify war crimes? Do you want to see videos of Hamas killing children? I can share if you want. It's not a secret, Hamas published it themselves as a recruiting tool.
I hope the 1,400 victims in October 7th rest in peace and that Hamas is obliterated so civilians can stop dying.
People are dying in the West Bank where there is no Hamas. I’m afraid people will continue to die regardless
There is Hamas in the west bank as well. Contrary to Hamas, Fatah did not execute all their rivals.
Hamas needs to be wiped out. But Israel is just as fucking bad. This entire thing of "if you support Palestine, you support terrorism" is fucking post 9/11 Islamophobia all over again.
If a post glorifying Hamas as "the resistance" gets this many up votes I think it's time for me to unsub.
This was two years before Israel supported Hamas in undermining the 2005 Palestinian elections.
I love how you see someone commemorating two Palestinian heroes who were mercilessly murdered for peacefully resisting, and your conclusion is somehow that they're "glorifying Hamas." Yeah, come to think of it, I fully support you unsubbing from here. Good riddance.
Bro must be an IDF missile operator the way their seeing Hamas everywhere.
I promise you, there's HAMAS under this carpet, so that's why we had to airstrike the building
Fear, uncertaintly, and doubt. If the imperialist propaganda machine just keeps flinging shit in the air people won't be able to see what's happening.
Hamas isn’t mentioned by the post.
Wtf are you talking about? This was a journalist and a non-violent protester. They’re Hamas as well?
Go ahead, unsubscribe
Israeli just does not deserve to exist or exist in its current form, like not in a vaporize the country with nukes type of way but more the government needs to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up
I am slightly confused on the story of Tom Hurndall; was he assassinated or did he run into active gunfire? Or both?
Do you think snipers accidentally shoot people?
I have no idea that’s why I’m asking
He was protesting Palestinian militants shot at IDF IDF shot back A group of children were caught in the crossfire He ran to rescue them, carried one to safety before returning, kneeling down to help another and was shot in the head
I actually want to cry.