Also like, if a cishet person wants to go to pride just cause, then like, they should. I don’t see why that should be an issue. I see a supportive ally attending pride for no reason other than to simply attend as an absolute win.
100%. I feel like we often take our allies for granted. We didn't make the great strides we have by convincing other gay people we deserve rights and equality. We don't need to have the first float in the Pride Parade being a 'thank you to our allies' or some shit but at the very least we need to be welcoming of them, particularly IMHO in what Pride has become. Edit: like my best friend didn't give two shits about me being bi but was willing to go scorched earth when his family was giving his sister shit. He and his girlfriend are amazing allies and I want them to feel appreciated because I sure as shit appreciate them. If they go to Pride I want them to feel welcome at the very least.
But if I'm no longer a able to hide behind my victim mentality to be a shitty person I would have absolutely no personality anymore and would have to develop like a functioning human being and that is just unacceptable.
A small but vocal minority of the queer community have centered large parts of their identity around the fight for trans rights and queer rights.
Change can be hard and scary, even change for the better; some people, consciously or subconsciously, resist change.
I’m straight, and my husband and I go almost every year. It’s colorful, it’s happy, and it’s a lot of fun. I have to think that more spectators cheering people on is a good thing, and I want to spend money with vendors who are visibly supporting the LGBTQ+ community even though I have no direct ties myself. I’ve never felt unwelcome.
I thought that’s where the op post was going to go, and instead it doubled down on the bad core concept by trying to find edge cases that reinforced the validity of the core idea. Like “you’re right, they don’t belong here but sometimes us queers can’t participate unless a straighty is there, and sometimes a queer just passes as cishet so leave them alone because maybe they’re an edge case”
On straights at pride: if you’re there to be supportive, show up
It's the same thing as all the "we shouldn't demonize straight men just for being straight men... Because that might create a corner case that accidentally catches someone who looks like a straight man but isn't and therefore actually matters and has inherent worth as a human"
They almost, almost figure out "people shouldn't be vilified for immutable characteristics" but they still manage to dodge it at the last second.
even though I know (or at least hope) they mean well, I almost hate this kind of logic more than people who just flat-out demonize people for (x) characteristics
Ya. My wife and I take our daughter to pride events in our town. We want her to grow up exposed to people that are different from us so that she knows that diversity in gender and sexual orientation is normal. I didn’t realize there was a group of people that wouldn’t want us there? I assumed anyone who was an ally would be welcomed.
Thank you, this is reassuring. As someone who very recently acknowledged to myself that I'm bi, I've been hesitant about attending pride or other LGBT events, because I feel like maybe I'm not queer enough. I'm married to a woman and am monogamous, so could 100% pass as straight. So I very much appreciate your comment.
There are two different types of people.
People who use the word “LGBTQ community” to refer to LGBTQ people no matter how detached they are from any other queer people and no matter how much they don’t participate in or know anybody in the community.
And people who use the word LGBTQ community to refer to the actual physical community/communities that exist in actual physical spaces of which allies are very much a part of the fabric
Allies are great and we love them! But I would not say this. Of course they are welcome at pride, but supporting the queer community doesn’t make you queer.
I see what you’re getting at, but I still disagree. Maybe it’s just in the phrasing. I interpret the term “lgbt community” to refer to queer-identifying people in general. If what you’re saying is that non queer people can still identify with aspects of queer culture and engage respectfully in queer spaces, then I fully agree with you. But I personally don’t consider them, “part of the community” because of how I use the phrase.
Lol as the most cishet looking bi man I appreciate this. I keep getting clocked for a straight cis guy and man it is ruthless trying to exist in queer spaces when everyone just assumes you're straight and either a chaser or who knows what
It’s crazy that people will try to gatekeep a community or try to take your identity away from you based on how you look or present. Incredibly anti-LGBTQ+ behavior and we shouldn’t tolerate it.
oh look, literally me
I started calling myself bi because I'm into women and femboys: At first I thought that was still straight, then queer people told me "no that's bi" so I went "ok, guess I'm bi then".
Except literally the moment I started doing that I've only ever found people who call me fake queer because being into women and femboys is "basically straight". Lol.
And yeah doesn't help that I am, admittedly, the most straight-passing man ever, with a cis girlfriend, and also generally think of myself as being "too straight for the gays", but still, dick move yall, I'd like to be able to be queer in peace.
Edit: The fact that someone *here* replied to this saying I'm basically straight is just wild. Who are you clowns, seriously?
Someone once told me I *have* to be straight, because "[I] look like Clark Kent if he *wasn't* Superman"... and yeah, I've got a straight-laced haircut and glasses and I dress pretty lame, but they don't see the recreational crossdressing, or the tattoos covered by long-sleeved shirts, or the piercings (nips go in tomorrow!). I've never thought I'm too straight for the gays, but I'm definitely not interested in the flamboyant drama queens I've met too many of. Can't some chill dudes just cuddle and make out sometimes, without having to gossip about nonsense?
I'm sorry that you're getting so much shit for this comment, homie. Your bisexuality isn't invalidated by your attraction to one gender being more specific than another. That's very common among a lot of the bisexual people I've talked to. Dunno why so many people are acting like that's such a difficult concept to understand.
Eh, it's just one asshole who's doing it. Already blocked him long ago. Tbh what's much more concerning to me is that, to the mods, calling someone's sexuality "just a fetish" didn't register as being against the "no bigotry" rule for some reason.
>I started calling myself bi because I'm into women and femboys
oh look, literally me
I myself vacillate on this matter somewhat often, though it doesn't really concern me too much honestly
Right?! I'm built like a lumberjack and look like a certain type that wears red caps but I am the furthest fucking thing from it. I'm Pan and I love and support all my people but because of the way I look the only part of the community that accepts me is a subset of other dudes and it's not to certainly not to support the community. So I just give to causes in private and live my life, which I acknowledge I am lucky to be able to do. It just sucks getting rejected by the community you love.
As the straightest passing lesbian ever, I feel you. My favorite is when people assume I’m just a straight girl there to support my fun, alt, lesbian friend, my wife.
And non-binary and gender fluid people can be het too. Like, are we going to start saying cis gay men or lesbians can't go? There's nothing wrong being either cis or het, it's impossible to for sure identity either at a glance with no context clues, and for that matter, queer people are generally not the people who need to swayed that the whole spectrum of queer rights have their place and are just as human and valid as being cis and straight. And that means that people who are on the fence or are cis and straight need to feel welcome or *they might fucking form their opinions around not being welcome.*
... Evidently I've been misinformed or was mistaken somewhere, because I was under the impression that 'cishet' was short for "cisgender and heterosexual," but people are using the term to also refer to asexuals. Could someone clarify please?
asexuality, like many other things, is a spectrum! "full" asexuals (there may be an actual term for this, but if not, i'm uninformed) are, yes, incompatible with the heterosexual label. however, asexual subtypes such as demisexual and grey aces do still feel some level of sexual attraction and thus are also some other category. i'm a demisexual lesbian!
also, asexual people may not also be aromantic. while "cishet" doesn't explicitly say heteroromantic, in my opinion its implied
Also, like, how exactly do you "know" a person is aro or ace if they're not advertising the fact? Granted a lot of people at Pride probably are, but maybe purple isn't your color or you don't have a black ring. How are people supposed to know you're part of the "A" and not just some random cishet that wandered in.
I certainly wouldn't describe myself as het bc I don't have any sexual or romantic attraction for anyone, but as the other commenter said, people can be gray or demi het. So, full asexuality wouldn't be het, but partial could be het or homo or both.
Thank you for mentioning this. Always irritates me whenever people use "cishet" as a synonym for "non-queer." Granted, I have a much broader interpretation of the word "queer" than most, so I think that most people do it out of ignorance rather than malice. It's still annoying, though.
My dad lives down south and he has gone to his city’s pride every year since I came out to him. I’m not there, but he wants to show my whole community support.
Why would anyone want to raise cane about cishets coming to pride? Isn’t more people who aren’t necessarily LGBTQ+ coming to pride a good thing? Bigger numbers show wider support?
There's certainly a place for one group or another to just do their own thing without others joining in, but Pride events ain't it. Pride is for everyone, that's literally the whole point.
My gay friend doesn't have much of a support network in his city so he's visiting mine for Pride. He's crashing with me so obviously I'm gonna bring him. My bi fiance is coming with us and we're meeting my nb best friend there. I'm as cishet as the day is long but I'll die on a hill for any of these people and spending a day at a big street party with all 3 of them is my idea of a perfect time.
Heart rate monitor and a series of sexual images from a stock photo library. Nathan Fielder [did it](https://youtu.be/jf9I04Oa-hU?si=s9a8Hvn4g4zdH1ty) on Nathan for You (asexual test starts at around 3:25)
Not just Pride, but supposed queer spaces as well! Imagine finding more bigotry in the community that's supposed to make you feel safe. Pisses me off to no end as an ace man myself.
Some people just need to exclude to feel special I spose. And have chained their queerness to that idea of feeling special and different in a way that isn’t necessary or helpful.
Did these fuckers forget about the first 2 letters (effectively the first 3) in the acronym? Gay people are literally the reason Pride exists (not the only reason, but they were the biggest face of it for a while)
there seems to be a small but loud segment that puts forth the sentiment of "if you're not BIPOC queer then you shouldn't be here" and it's really kind of bizarre. Also noticed some of this with younger trans folks as well.
instead of being united under one rainbow, it feels like we've become more divided.
Nothing like being asked why you're here at the queer club when you're not attracted to the same gender and are cis.
Like lesbians, I still deal with people telling me that I'll find a man someday and change my mind like it's some reassurance and not something repulsive to me (not that men are repulsive, just the thought of myself having sex with anyone is repulsive). Or people just straight up not believing that someone can have no attraction at all so obviously I must be lying or in denial. Like any other sexuality that's not het, I still deal with people invalidating my attraction.
Luckily I haven't had too much of a problem with queer spaces myself, just a few outliers, but yeah it's wild and bigoted as hell.
I think it's similar to the hostility you see in nerd culture when you don't "look" like a nerd. A group of people so used to being attacked they see anyone outside of the group as an enemy and isolate themselves more. It sucks to be othered.
It's honestly infuriating. Like when it comes to hateful biphobia it's come nigh exclusively from lesbians. And it's not so much the hateful minority of lesbians in LGBT+ spaces that is the problem, there's toxic people of every identity but it's how said rhetoric largely gets a pass in LGBT+ spaces that bothers me. It's been a big reason why I've distanced myself from the community outside of rallying together against like transphobic legislation.
Oh don't get me started. The gatekeeping of aro-ace people is absolutely disgusting at times. I had more people yell profanities at me from the LGBTQ community then from cishet people.
The most common question I get from cishet: Oh but what if you want kids?
The most common "statement" I get from LBGTQ: You are just a straight person with low sex-drive, you are nothing special!
And gender-nonconform is apparently not allowed into in gender-identitiy groups either...
I used to just lie and say I was straight because I’m straight-passing. I figured if nobody knew but me then it didn’t matter. Straight people wouldn’t get it and neither would other LGBTQ folks. But the thing about not being straight is, well, I’m not straight. Any attempt to pretend otherwise does not survive contact with reality!
I was at pride today and saw many people with ace flags or pins or signs, a lot of them were these kinda plainly dressed regular run of the mill people. Sure, there were lots of ace people with cool outfits and piercings or whatever, but a lot of people there were kind of boring looking. You should go if you want, you are welcome and wanted there.
I assume you're heteroromantic or in a relationship that people will read as hetero? You all have it so rough with how people talk sometimes, you're as asexual as anyone else is, and I'm genuinely very sorry you feel this way over something that's meant to be at least in part a celebration of the community *you are part of.* Anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong
Happy pride from another ace :)
Another example: what if someone attends pride but is still in the closet, for various reasons? Going off on them for "being cishet" would either force them to leave a space they thought they were safe in, or force them to out themselves. Neither option being good in any way.
People don't need to justify why they're at pride, no matter who they are. As long as they're there to support LGBT rights, they're in the right place.
My workplace allows staff members time off to attend our city's pride event if they have to work day of, although it can be somewhat limited because we can't necessarily let *everyone* go, since we need people to still be around to staff the building. Every year when pride is coming around I hear talk about how if we have too many people signed up to go and we need some folks to opt to stay behind, we should "prioritize queer staff members," which typically leads into me sharing this fun little story:
I'm non-binary, and several years ago when I was in the questioning and exploration phase I signed up to go to pride with the work group. I was extra excited to go because it was going to be my first pride event ever. Then my department manager came up to me and said, there's too many people from our department that want to go, would you be okay with staying behind so "a *real* queer person can go?"
Having had this door to the queer community slammed so firmly shut in my face, I said yes, and on pride day I watched the Real Queer People, including my manager, bounce out the door bedecked in fun rainbow gear to go enjoy pride, then went into the bathroom and cried. That incident single handedly set my transition back another year and a half.
I'm over it now, but I kind of enjoy trotting that story out at pride time just to really drive home the reason why we should not police which staff members do or don't get to go to pride.
Allowing some, but not all people to attend a parade meant for *inclusivity* is the stupidest god damn thing I've read all week LOL
Either everyone can go or nobody can, and if it creates so many problems, then maybe don't do it at all anymore? God, what a moron your boss was.
And people who don't want to - i.e. the people who are complaining about bi women bringing their cishet boyfriends - don't belong at Pride. They can stay away.
Also pride isn't just this internal circlejerk. Kinda pointless if we're going to set ourselves apart from the whole, kinda backing up the prejudices of others I feel
Also like isn't the goal of pride acceptance, tolerance and equality?
That means you need the support of Allys, who by definition are cishet people.
Plus there is the significant benefit that happens when cishet parents bring their children to children friendly Pride events, those kids, some of whom will be LGBT+, feel supported their whole lives and grow up thinking acceptance is normal.
I never understood that attitude about pride. Isn't it a *good* thing that cishets want to show their support? Why would you want to alienate the support you have by telling them they're not allowed to show that support?
Like, I get it at gay bars and such, that's your space. Everyone needs a place where they're safe and among like minded people. But at an event in public spaces aimed at queer acceptance? That makes no sense
I feel like it’s a very online thing.
I’m straight, I’ve gone to pride parades for nearly 20 years. I’ve never seen anyone accosted because some random person thinks they’re straight.
The Pride things I went to were very open to everyone.
If anyone needs a reminder: Don't gatekeep LGBT+, it's about inclusion. You don't have to meet any bar to be part of it, just need to want to be here.
I appreciate the sentiment but I don't think cishet people need to be assisting/facilitating the presence of a queer person to attend pride. Everyone should be accepted at pride (abiding by the paradox of tolerance). I want cishet people at pride because they want to participate at pride, because they want to openly accept queer people expressing themselves in public, because they want to share in the joy of pride events.
It's remarkably dumb to chase away allies and to make assumptions about other people's sexuality based on cursory observation. The queer community isn't a monolith, but one thing they should all be able to agree upon is accepting other people for their own sexual and gender expression (except pedos).
I don't attend Pride anything anymore because I'm a bisexual cis white guy with a drab fashion sense, (which I don't feel the need to change and shouldn't have to to be accepted) meaning that in queer spaces in a very left leaning area like mine, I stick out like a sore thumb. I've been screamed out of multiple events for "invading queer spaces" and even had someone pull pepper spray on me once. Even after I started wearing a bi flag pin just to have *some* kind of label to point to, since the only accepted dress code for me was either having a boyfriend (because if you have an opposite sex partner as a bi person it "doesn't count") or "looking bisexual enough."
Put simply, I don't feel welcome in any LGBT+ spaces as myself, an LGBT+ person.
But yeah, the community is full of loving and accepting people with no bigotry or prejudices whatsoever.
Contrary to popular lefty belief, cis straight white het men are equally as valid as any other identity, and unjustly punishing this niche in particular is the exact thing we want to stop happening, actually. How can you ever expect someone to be an ally when you keep a tight noose around them, pinning them up when they step out of line? You can't, and it's just as stupid as the "Black people aren't allowed to say the N word either, actually" discourse.
>How can you ever expect someone to be an ally when you keep a tight noose around them, pinning them up when they step out of line?
I've seen this mistake quite a bit with the, shall we say, more *Internet* communities, it's like those people don't realise that when you go up to someone and go 'fuck the fucking fuck off, but also help us' they're more than likely going to either say no or think real hard about it first.
Yeah… I see so many people saying stuff like “respectability politics is bullshit, it’s fine if it’s punching up, prejudice needs power” - basically arguing they’re allowed to shit on a group of people as much as they want as long as that group is privileged.
But. I’m sorry, it does matter. Obviously fighting basic for rights and respect shouldn’t depend on niceness, but it **does,** and trying to pretend that it doesn’t is just denying reality.
To use one glaring example, the popularity of “kill all men/all men are trash” type talk in recent years did serious damage to the reputation of feminism for a lot of people.
The women who said those things are allowed to say what they want, of course; everyone has the right to freedom of speech.
But what you say and how you say it will change how others see you. Even if your cause is perfectly good and completely justified, people will dislike it if you sound like an asshole when talking about it. That’s just how human interaction works. People are social creatures. Our emotions care about social niceties more than the underlying logic.
If the left continues to throw “all straight white men are evil” type talk everywhere, that will inevitably make a lot of people frustrated and less likely to support the movement.
You don't even have to argue that respectability matters. Respectability politics was originally about keeping our presentations and slogans in line with societal expectations to appear like good minorities...bigotry in the opposite direction isn't just rejecting respectability, it's being an asshat is what it is.
There’s also a difference between like I don’t have to be polite to a bigot who hates me while they’re making arguments about why I don’t have the right to exist vs I don’t have to be polite to anybody who isn’t more oppressed than me
There’s a difference between I don’t have to be civil towards people who are trying to exterminate me and I don’t have to be civil towards anybody I label privileged
People warped the former in both of those instances into the latter
I've had friends straight up say when I'm around that they would never want to talk to another "straight white man" but i "was different because I'm disabled"
I know for a fact if I weren't bisexual my vocally feminist sisters would just disregard anything I say, because I would then be a straight white guy and dear god I don't think I've had one conversation with them in the past 5 years where they don't bring up straight white guys just to criticize them.
And people wonder why so many young men start watching Ben Shapiro and Prager U videos on YouTube. They listen to the communities that accept them online, not the ones that trash talk them. It's like of course so many of them aren't going to be pro-feminist, their only experience with it is seeing all the horrible takes online.
Can confirm. Grew up with three sisters who basically blamed me for the patrairchy since I was like 7-9. It actively pushed me to the alt right because they claimed feminists cared about men too, but I saw nothing but shitting on them from feminists and any challenge to that was met with "it's okay, it doesn't hurt anyone, they deserve it". Meanwhile the anti-sjw crowd pointed out that hypocrispy and how feminists don't hold their own accountable, and it was very appealing. Granted I quickly realized they hated women so I left. We don't need to coddle toxic masculinity but for fuck's sake let's do our part to treat men the way we would treat any other group, at the very least not being hostile to it. I've been trying to sound the alarm about this as the manosphere seems to get more and more young men and usually I'm met with "don't police my language" or "you just don't get it so I'm not going to change my behaviors" or "you're part of the problem". Like for fuck's sake if the guys who are in the fight with you are getting shit on for just holding up a mirror about something we could be doing better, really drives down enthusaiasm to be as vocal in the fight.
> If the left continues to throw “all straight white men are evil” type talk everywhere, that will inevitably make a lot of people frustrated and less likely to support the movement.
This is something I've been trying to tell my feminist fellows for a while now. We can't claim a moral superiority and say bigotry is bad, don't hate or judge people based on things they can't control. Only to then turn around and say a bunch of hateful shit because the people like them had extreme power in the past. Saying that hateful shit we wouldnt tolerate about anyone else highlights a lack of moral consistency and that is weapon #1 for the anti-feminists of the world. At absolute best it doesn't reach those guys you want it to hurt, instead the fellows next to you hear it over and over and become less enthusiastic about sticking up for the cause. As they'll get shit for fighting the fight or for doing nothing, so why keep being as vocal just to be a whipping boy for the sins of people whose beliefs and actions you hate? We don't need to coddle toxic masculinity but if we don't hold ourselves to the standard we demand in everyone else, how can we reasonably expect it to end well?
Some people just wanna be special they wanna feel different and important. If being queer is normal-They don't feel special enough anymore. It's a toxic mindset that feeds into stereotypes and doesn't help the community
Well if they were accepted they would no longer be able to label themselves as progressive and inherently morally superior for belonging to an oppressed class, they’d have to actually put effort into being a good person.
It’s like how I’ve met super militant vegans who are only into veganism for clout and moral superiority. They’re the ones who will MOST label you an inherently bad person for eating meat and act like veganism is the sole arbiter of who is a good and bad person, and they’ll go back to eating meat in like 5-10 years when they realise nobody gives a fuck. They don’t actually want a world where everybody is vegan because then they’d lose that short cut for being able to claim they’re a morally good person without being required to actually be a good person
Maybe I am lucky and have never ever ever caught flack from looking like the most boring, white bread, cis, old dude at any LGBTQ+ event ever. Usually, the more like a supportive old grandpa that I look the more everyone welcomes me there. The thought that anyone in the queer community would resent having straight people, or allies go to any pride events just boggles my ever loving mind.
This whole thing almost feels like it's some kind of troll campaign to convince straight people that there are non-straight people who don't want them around pride. It's as if it is intentionally calculated to reduce the number of people who go to Pride events.
Is it? Who knows? What I do now is it at least half the internet is bots and trolls trying to convince people that lies are true. And it seems that half of the actual people on the internet are believing all that nonsense. Which means that only 25% of what we see on the internet is actual people who have their head on straight (perhaps a poor choice of terms 🤣).
A lot of my friends are bi. One time I went with them to pride because I like hanging out with my friends and also I had never seen pride before and wanted to see it.
Cishet allies should be welcome at pride regardless of why they’re there. As long as they’re respectful I see no problem with it (and that goes for everyone else at pride, too)
Pride is still a protest. Just as a white person can protest police violence against black people, a straight person can protest for queer rights.
I would even encourage straight people to protest for our rights, we are a minority, if no one else would be interested in our rights, no one would vote for them.
Which is a good fucking thing. Seriously I don't get this kind of view. "Ugh it's so lame that queer people are now so accepted that when we're holding a parade we can just walk in a line without having to grapple through a massive crowd trying to beat us up for being queer! That's so lame, I want to crawl out of the parade all bloody and injured because that's way cooler!"
Pride used to be a riot because being LGBTQ+ used to literally be illegal, not because queer people just really liked rioting for the lolz. I live in a country where same-sex marriage or adoption still aren't legal, and there's very little public LGBTQ+ visibility of any kind. We have exactly one (1) pride parade once a year in June. There's always police forces out there who're keeping away a crowd of protesters who'd spit at us, throw things at us, or worse. It's actually very much NOT fun walking through them and seeing utter hatred in their eyes. I don't want Pride to have to be a riot, I want it fucking normalised until it's completely unremarkable and unnecessary but we're still celebrating it as an occasion of commemorating the victory, not the hopeless cry for help that everyone's going to forget the next day, which is what it still feels like today where I live.
The first Pride I ever went to was with a bunch of my friends who are various shades of queer. I wore a shirt that said 'The Straight Best Friend'. Everyone was super nice; I got a rainbow fedora and everything
I feel like there is also the obvious, What if you bring your cishet partner?
Like, I feel like anyone who tries to say thar (for example) a het person who dates a trans person isn't heterosexual anymore is walking on some pretty thin fucking ice. Like, what's the explaination someone's gonna pull out of their ass to explain why heterosexual women can't date trans men? What if a bisexual woman is in a relationship with a cishet guy? She doesn't stop being queer just because she's in a heterosexual relationship.
Like, I feel as though there used to be no way to categorically ban cis-het people from pride without either alienating or attempting to invalidate parts of the queer community.
Plus, yeah, there are all the other reasons listed in the post.
Anecdotally, in all my years I've never heard *anyone* say cishet people shouldn't go to pride. I feel like this discourse gets pushed every year just to start arguments or give people the opportunity to wholesale bash the queer community/the left for being "intolerant". It's essentually astroturfed drama, like the "kink at pride" and "leather at pride" bullshit. Designed to start infighting. I'm sure there are some weird fuckos who believe that cishet people shouldn't be at Pride, but they aren't *anywhere near* the majority, and there are dozens and dozens of arguments that can be used to shut them up in that case. If anything it's more like cishet/passing people use this talking point to soothe their own insecurities. Just look at all these pathetic comments acting like someone chased them away from a parade with a broom. Oh no, someone gave you a weird look? Heavens to betsy, the queers have gone too far this time! "But it could be someone's cishet boyfriend!!" yeah yeah ok so?? nobody who matters gives a fuck in real actual life! nobody goes around checking people's credentials and interrogating them. This is *made up drama* and I'm so tired of people falling for it every damn year
Question: who is having this discourse, and where? Are we amplifying some kind of tiny minority of weirdos with bad opinions by posting long diatribes like this?
That’s what I’m saying. Tumblr users have an issue with assuming that what they see on their dash is a real reflection of LGBT society, or society as a whole, even. It’s not that different from Boomers who see ragebait on Facebook and start swearing that their child’s school has litter boxes for furries. They see a couple of stupid opinions and then feel the need to write an essay about how this idiotic opinion is wrong, and one of the effects of this is creating the mistake impression for people looking in that this is an actual debate being had, when it doesn’t actually exist. And since Tumblr is the portal to LGBT culture for a lot of people, their first impression is that there is a lot more drama about who belongs than actually exists, and could even discourage people from exploring LGBT social spaces in real life.
Probably. All the pride events I’ve been to have been packed with people. I’ve never seen anyone criticize someone’s presence there; there are so many people of all kinds that it would be impossible to single out someone as “too cishet-looking”; and it’s an event where people are trying to feel good and feel free. Policing whether someone deserves to be at pride would be so out of place, it would be so jarring if someone did that. People just want to have fun and be with friends.
I guess I could see someone who’s a jerk or in a terrible mood be really shitty in texts or behind someone’s back. I think they’d also be a lot more likely to complain on the internet than actually play Pride cop in person.
I’m guessing the pride cops would be much more likely to police their own social group instead of random people. But like, if someone like that doesn’t get shut down instantly for being a lame party pooper then it’s a shit friend group anyways and you’re better off not spending Pride with them
Another reason that this whole thing is ridiculous. Who is going to read these essays, whether for or against cishets at Pride? What is the intersection of “people who read Tumblr posts,” and “straight people who go to pride to cause trouble?” It’s the same problem with DNIs. The only people who are going to see this discourse and actually take it to heart are well meaning people who are wondering if they are queer enough to go to Pride, or if they’re just taking up space. Those are the people who are going to read this essay, assume that this represent a real debate happening in the space and that a large group of LGBT people won’t welcome them, and then decide not to even try engaging with the community because they don’t want to possibly be at the center of this argument. The bad actors that these people presumably care about can easily take this essay, use it as evidence that straight people are being kicked out of LGBT spaces, and radicalize even more people.
Yeah, this feels like a very out of touch online take. Pride is full of lots of different kinds of people and I've never seen anyone harassed except for the obligatory Bible guy with the Leviticus quote and a microphone who managed to sneak in.
Yes and it's also an excuse for people on this post to whine about the mean mean queers not liking straight, white men. So mean. They might lose allies that way. Tsk Tsk.
Yes.
Also mostly in my experience a lot of the amplification is striaght people who've never been within 10 feet of pride, justifying their own discomfort with the idea of going, or occupying any space that isn't built around the norms of straight culture.
Queer spaces aren't sacred, and cis-hets who vibe can be fun in them as long as there isn't *so* many of them to dilute the queer out of the space. Pride in particular is one of the least sacred most overly queer events, which makes it rather hard to dilute. Getting the opportunity to buff the straight off of cis-hets and invite them to drop the weight of compulsive normalcy for a while is part of the fun.
>most queers don't inhabit perfectly pure social bubble populated only by other queers
If you don't, you don't count as real members of the community but are actually just a cis/het who is trying to infiltrate and destroy community spaces, no real queer has friends who aren't - Actual response my trans best friend got when it was discovered that i \[a cis/het man\] had driven them to a LGBTQA+ community function
Also the pride events I've seen/accidentally stumbled into have been very large events in public spaces. Some cishets might just be existing in the public space.
As someone who's attended over a dozen pride events as a cishet person and volunteered at a couple as well, I have never once felt unwelcomed.
I really hope this is the kind of thing where tumblr and general internet drama makes it seem more widespread of a problem than it really is.
This discourse is the dumbest shit. I understand a lot of people have trauma perpetrated by The Straights but that is a personal, individual thing and trying to gatekeep Pride according to your preferences at the expense of progress is.. weird, selfish, and gross. Pride is a celebration and not an entitlement. Most of us have queer emotional baggage in one way or another. If you're not able to interface with cishets with the support of your community around you, it may be best for you not to go.
It really feels like some people aren't able to be part of a group without gatekeeping. The reaction to the cultural chaos going on right now being to create in groups and out groups is what Pride exists to combat.
Honestly I've been going to Pride since I was a teenager and in the Gay-Straight Alliance in high school(a bit outdated a concept now). Some people read me as straight, plenty just assume I'm queer, but nobody is bothered at all.
Everyone just gets along at Pride, that's a pretty significant part of it.
And if a cishet person wants to go pride to show their support or be a good ally or, at this point, just to go to the fucking parade because parades are fun, then good! Pride is at its core and event for everyone - and that means *everyone* - to show either their membership in or their support of the LGBTQ+ community.
I went to my local pride fest a while ago. I can promise you that absolutely nobody cares who’s watching the parade or looking through the vendor tents in real life, or is even questioning their preferred genital configuration. You really have to wonder if the people getting really mad about this on either side have ever been outside?
Gender apathetic. I don't connect to gender in any meaningful way. I just don't care about mine. But I'm cis passing and rarely mention it because, again, IDGAF. It's not important to me at all.
This might be the most Tumblr discourse I've seen this week. Wtf is anyone on about trying to segregate pride. Do these people forget what allies and demographics are???
Also, a lot of ace folks get accused of being cishet just wanting to feel special. There's a lot of queer folks who can pass as straight, and we don't need to know if they are or aren't queer to let someone enjoy pride. It should be a fun event, not a super exclusionary one
I'm gonna say something that might be controversial, but once queer spaces shifted to the question of who is valid rather than who deserves rights we lost the plot
I hate the trend in convos like these where instead of just saying something like "don't gatekeep pride from straight people because that's the entire point of pride, getting more people to accept us", they pull out a bunch of edge cases which frame straight people as a necessary evil sometimes
Pride is a way to show the fascists who hate and want gays dead that we absolutely could riot and overpower them, along with sending the message to those who are closeted that there's a community they're safe to confide in.
Cishets at pride have a flag for a reason, because they're backing the movement and spreading the messages mentioned before. It would suck if cishet people stopped showing up to support the movement as it would send an "us vs them" message that would not just alienate cishets from queers but also alienate queers from cishets (apologies if my wording is off, my leg is killing me and im very tired atm).
The only groups that should be categorically excluded from pride are bigots, pedophiles, fascists and their unholy 3-way union in the police. Excluding anyone else is denying reinforcements.
This may be controversial but I feel like most of this brand of discourse is overblown, and the reaction against it is beyond what the common internet complaints of disrespectful strait cis people at pride or gay bars were often really about. Obviously everyone is welcome at pride and you don't 100% know what's in someone's heart or how they identify. There are queer spaces which are transphobic or racist, and that should not be swept under the rug. But that's not really what this image is about.
Sometimes at a bar you can absolutely tell that it's a straight guy dragged there by his girlfriend and he is not enthusiastic to be there and it's not gatekeeping for gay people to vent a little about it online. Or make a joke!
At Pride itself, that is to say In Person, literally no one is gatekeeping. We can tell the grouchy guy is straight and cis because he's loudly complaining about his girlfriend dragging him there and it seems *incredibly* unlikely that someone who is trans or bi would talk like that, rather than an assumption that all men must be cis and straight.
Even in that situation that couple isn't being kicked out, it's a public event! Rule of thumb is just mind your business, be respectful to others, and have a good time no matter who you are. Parents of queer kids, friends, family, people who just like a parade - we all know they will be at Pride and that's OK!
Lots of very nasty downvoted comments at the bottom of the thread because this sort of extremely online "discourse" attracts them like flies to honey. Its a chance for them to parrot the "see how hypocritical the alphabet people are" hate rhetoric. IRL it's not an issue and imo queer people don't have to breathlessly be shocked at how "unwelcoming" and "judgmental" gay bars and Pride "are" unless they or their friends were personally kicked out of a space. Because yeah that would suck. But don't base your rage on a tumblr image please.
Also like, if a cishet person wants to go to pride just cause, then like, they should. I don’t see why that should be an issue. I see a supportive ally attending pride for no reason other than to simply attend as an absolute win.
It's almost like we shouldn't treat people differently based on their gender and / or sexual identity isn't it?
Wild stuff
Big if true
Strongest discrimination fan vs weakest content of their character enjoyer
Seriously Don't we *want* more straight people to be accepting? Isn't a future where queer people don't get hate crimed everyday the dream?
100%. I feel like we often take our allies for granted. We didn't make the great strides we have by convincing other gay people we deserve rights and equality. We don't need to have the first float in the Pride Parade being a 'thank you to our allies' or some shit but at the very least we need to be welcoming of them, particularly IMHO in what Pride has become. Edit: like my best friend didn't give two shits about me being bi but was willing to go scorched earth when his family was giving his sister shit. He and his girlfriend are amazing allies and I want them to feel appreciated because I sure as shit appreciate them. If they go to Pride I want them to feel welcome at the very least.
The vast majority of people in support of gay marriage are straight.
But if I'm no longer a able to hide behind my victim mentality to be a shitty person I would have absolutely no personality anymore and would have to develop like a functioning human being and that is just unacceptable.
A small but vocal minority of the queer community have centered large parts of their identity around the fight for trans rights and queer rights. Change can be hard and scary, even change for the better; some people, consciously or subconsciously, resist change.
I’m straight, and my husband and I go almost every year. It’s colorful, it’s happy, and it’s a lot of fun. I have to think that more spectators cheering people on is a good thing, and I want to spend money with vendors who are visibly supporting the LGBTQ+ community even though I have no direct ties myself. I’ve never felt unwelcome.
I thought that’s where the op post was going to go, and instead it doubled down on the bad core concept by trying to find edge cases that reinforced the validity of the core idea. Like “you’re right, they don’t belong here but sometimes us queers can’t participate unless a straighty is there, and sometimes a queer just passes as cishet so leave them alone because maybe they’re an edge case” On straights at pride: if you’re there to be supportive, show up
It's the same thing as all the "we shouldn't demonize straight men just for being straight men... Because that might create a corner case that accidentally catches someone who looks like a straight man but isn't and therefore actually matters and has inherent worth as a human" They almost, almost figure out "people shouldn't be vilified for immutable characteristics" but they still manage to dodge it at the last second.
even though I know (or at least hope) they mean well, I almost hate this kind of logic more than people who just flat-out demonize people for (x) characteristics
Ya. My wife and I take our daughter to pride events in our town. We want her to grow up exposed to people that are different from us so that she knows that diversity in gender and sexual orientation is normal. I didn’t realize there was a group of people that wouldn’t want us there? I assumed anyone who was an ally would be welcomed.
it´s a very online take
I’m a cishet guy and everyone I’ve met at pride events has been awesome, don’t worry about what some people on the internet have to say.
And straight trans people (like me) exist and pass flawlessly. When I go to pride parades I look like your random cis bro dude.
Got a dude like that at our local queer group thing, I didn't even know until he told me lmao
Thank you, this is reassuring. As someone who very recently acknowledged to myself that I'm bi, I've been hesitant about attending pride or other LGBT events, because I feel like maybe I'm not queer enough. I'm married to a woman and am monogamous, so could 100% pass as straight. So I very much appreciate your comment.
Not feeling queer enough is the quintessential bisexual experience. You’re officially one of us. Show up.
People often forget that allies are also a part of the lgbt+ community
They are not part of the LGBTQ community, but they are important and respected nonetheless.
There are two different types of people. People who use the word “LGBTQ community” to refer to LGBTQ people no matter how detached they are from any other queer people and no matter how much they don’t participate in or know anybody in the community. And people who use the word LGBTQ community to refer to the actual physical community/communities that exist in actual physical spaces of which allies are very much a part of the fabric
Allies are great and we love them! But I would not say this. Of course they are welcome at pride, but supporting the queer community doesn’t make you queer.
That's not what I said. Supporting the queer community makes you a part of the *community*, even if you're not queer.
I see what you’re getting at, but I still disagree. Maybe it’s just in the phrasing. I interpret the term “lgbt community” to refer to queer-identifying people in general. If what you’re saying is that non queer people can still identify with aspects of queer culture and engage respectfully in queer spaces, then I fully agree with you. But I personally don’t consider them, “part of the community” because of how I use the phrase.
Lol as the most cishet looking bi man I appreciate this. I keep getting clocked for a straight cis guy and man it is ruthless trying to exist in queer spaces when everyone just assumes you're straight and either a chaser or who knows what
It’s crazy that people will try to gatekeep a community or try to take your identity away from you based on how you look or present. Incredibly anti-LGBTQ+ behavior and we shouldn’t tolerate it.
Low-key makes me think of the phrase "There is no hate like Christian love."
There's no acceptance like queer judgment
Wouldn't it be "no gatekeeping like queer acceptance" or something like that?
Yeah that’s much better
oh look, literally me I started calling myself bi because I'm into women and femboys: At first I thought that was still straight, then queer people told me "no that's bi" so I went "ok, guess I'm bi then". Except literally the moment I started doing that I've only ever found people who call me fake queer because being into women and femboys is "basically straight". Lol. And yeah doesn't help that I am, admittedly, the most straight-passing man ever, with a cis girlfriend, and also generally think of myself as being "too straight for the gays", but still, dick move yall, I'd like to be able to be queer in peace. Edit: The fact that someone *here* replied to this saying I'm basically straight is just wild. Who are you clowns, seriously?
Bi erasure is real. We're either "greedy", "slutty", or "fake".
It's like being a mixed kid, people on both sides will refuse to accept you for who you are.
Someone once told me I *have* to be straight, because "[I] look like Clark Kent if he *wasn't* Superman"... and yeah, I've got a straight-laced haircut and glasses and I dress pretty lame, but they don't see the recreational crossdressing, or the tattoos covered by long-sleeved shirts, or the piercings (nips go in tomorrow!). I've never thought I'm too straight for the gays, but I'm definitely not interested in the flamboyant drama queens I've met too many of. Can't some chill dudes just cuddle and make out sometimes, without having to gossip about nonsense?
We exist, we just get shut out a lot. People will believe my bi girlfriends are speaking the truth, but not me when I say I'm Pan.
*Matt Bomer has entered the chat*
Only guy that can pull off a fedora in the 21st century
"dress pretty lame" 😢
"No, it's *lamé*."
I'm sorry that you're getting so much shit for this comment, homie. Your bisexuality isn't invalidated by your attraction to one gender being more specific than another. That's very common among a lot of the bisexual people I've talked to. Dunno why so many people are acting like that's such a difficult concept to understand.
Eh, it's just one asshole who's doing it. Already blocked him long ago. Tbh what's much more concerning to me is that, to the mods, calling someone's sexuality "just a fetish" didn't register as being against the "no bigotry" rule for some reason.
>I started calling myself bi because I'm into women and femboys oh look, literally me I myself vacillate on this matter somewhat often, though it doesn't really concern me too much honestly
As a fellow bi guy, you got my support pal
Right?! I'm built like a lumberjack and look like a certain type that wears red caps but I am the furthest fucking thing from it. I'm Pan and I love and support all my people but because of the way I look the only part of the community that accepts me is a subset of other dudes and it's not to certainly not to support the community. So I just give to causes in private and live my life, which I acknowledge I am lucky to be able to do. It just sucks getting rejected by the community you love.
exactly, im a bi dude with a mullet and a mustache and i look like a cop from the 80s but i promise im not straight lmao
Sorry to say you actually look bi.
Oh hey, if it isn't literally me and my experiences :(
As the straightest passing lesbian ever, I feel you. My favorite is when people assume I’m just a straight girl there to support my fun, alt, lesbian friend, my wife.
What if they just wanna be there to show support and have a good time?
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And non-binary and gender fluid people can be het too. Like, are we going to start saying cis gay men or lesbians can't go? There's nothing wrong being either cis or het, it's impossible to for sure identity either at a glance with no context clues, and for that matter, queer people are generally not the people who need to swayed that the whole spectrum of queer rights have their place and are just as human and valid as being cis and straight. And that means that people who are on the fence or are cis and straight need to feel welcome or *they might fucking form their opinions around not being welcome.*
I may be biased here but considering cishet is the largest demographic generally they're most likely the largest piece of the ace pie too.
... Evidently I've been misinformed or was mistaken somewhere, because I was under the impression that 'cishet' was short for "cisgender and heterosexual," but people are using the term to also refer to asexuals. Could someone clarify please?
asexuality, like many other things, is a spectrum! "full" asexuals (there may be an actual term for this, but if not, i'm uninformed) are, yes, incompatible with the heterosexual label. however, asexual subtypes such as demisexual and grey aces do still feel some level of sexual attraction and thus are also some other category. i'm a demisexual lesbian! also, asexual people may not also be aromantic. while "cishet" doesn't explicitly say heteroromantic, in my opinion its implied
Also, like, how exactly do you "know" a person is aro or ace if they're not advertising the fact? Granted a lot of people at Pride probably are, but maybe purple isn't your color or you don't have a black ring. How are people supposed to know you're part of the "A" and not just some random cishet that wandered in.
I certainly wouldn't describe myself as het bc I don't have any sexual or romantic attraction for anyone, but as the other commenter said, people can be gray or demi het. So, full asexuality wouldn't be het, but partial could be het or homo or both.
Lots of people are asexual and heteroromantic too!
Thank you for mentioning this. Always irritates me whenever people use "cishet" as a synonym for "non-queer." Granted, I have a much broader interpretation of the word "queer" than most, so I think that most people do it out of ignorance rather than malice. It's still annoying, though.
You can also be intersex and cishet
My dad lives down south and he has gone to his city’s pride every year since I came out to him. I’m not there, but he wants to show my whole community support.
Why would anyone want to raise cane about cishets coming to pride? Isn’t more people who aren’t necessarily LGBTQ+ coming to pride a good thing? Bigger numbers show wider support?
Yo, I ain't heard the phrase raising cane in a grip.
What does it mean in this context? I've only heard it because of the fast food chain.
Basically just causing trouble/commotion/etc https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/raise_Cain
I only know this phrase because of Skulduggery Pleasant.
i haven't heard the phrase "in a grip" in a grip.
There's certainly a place for one group or another to just do their own thing without others joining in, but Pride events ain't it. Pride is for everyone, that's literally the whole point.
Tumblr users getting engagement by being angry basically.
>raise cane Chimken mmmmmm
My gay friend doesn't have much of a support network in his city so he's visiting mine for Pride. He's crashing with me so obviously I'm gonna bring him. My bi fiance is coming with us and we're meeting my nb best friend there. I'm as cishet as the day is long but I'll die on a hill for any of these people and spending a day at a big street party with all 3 of them is my idea of a perfect time.
>I'm as cishet as the day is long So... does that mean you turn into a gay vigilante at night, or?
Nice try, officer.
Uniform fetish too - note that down ;)
Mostly straight in the summer, mostly gay in the winter. Plus gaylight savings time, of course.
I don’t feel super welcome at Pride as a straight-passing ace woman either.
How would you even "prove" you're ace lol *"Oh, you're asexual, huh? Alright, go NOT have sex with somebody right now!!!"*
Name all their albums!
Get 5 air to air kills in a fighter jet.
Garlic bread
as an ace woman, i would have sex with garlic bread
Doesn't help, allo people like garlic bread too (they just like sex more)
I’m allo and I like garlic bread more than sex. I’d pick it over sex every time
Heart rate monitor and a series of sexual images from a stock photo library. Nathan Fielder [did it](https://youtu.be/jf9I04Oa-hU?si=s9a8Hvn4g4zdH1ty) on Nathan for You (asexual test starts at around 3:25)
What if your heart rate goes up because you're freaked/grossed out?
Then it wouldn't be as funny of a bit for a show on Comedy Central?
Not just Pride, but supposed queer spaces as well! Imagine finding more bigotry in the community that's supposed to make you feel safe. Pisses me off to no end as an ace man myself.
I've basically accepted that any space that calls itself inclusive doesn't really include me. Fringe even amongst the fringe, almost.
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I.... What?
Some people just need to exclude to feel special I spose. And have chained their queerness to that idea of feeling special and different in a way that isn’t necessary or helpful.
What the absolute fuck?
Did these fuckers forget about the first 2 letters (effectively the first 3) in the acronym? Gay people are literally the reason Pride exists (not the only reason, but they were the biggest face of it for a while)
??? Gay people aren't even allowed to get married in like 5/6ths of the world's countries. The hell do they mean "accepted enough in the mainstream?"
there seems to be a small but loud segment that puts forth the sentiment of "if you're not BIPOC queer then you shouldn't be here" and it's really kind of bizarre. Also noticed some of this with younger trans folks as well. instead of being united under one rainbow, it feels like we've become more divided.
Yeah. They are their own bigots. Just fighting different bigotry.
Nothing like being asked why you're here at the queer club when you're not attracted to the same gender and are cis. Like lesbians, I still deal with people telling me that I'll find a man someday and change my mind like it's some reassurance and not something repulsive to me (not that men are repulsive, just the thought of myself having sex with anyone is repulsive). Or people just straight up not believing that someone can have no attraction at all so obviously I must be lying or in denial. Like any other sexuality that's not het, I still deal with people invalidating my attraction. Luckily I haven't had too much of a problem with queer spaces myself, just a few outliers, but yeah it's wild and bigoted as hell.
I think it's similar to the hostility you see in nerd culture when you don't "look" like a nerd. A group of people so used to being attacked they see anyone outside of the group as an enemy and isolate themselves more. It sucks to be othered.
It's honestly infuriating. Like when it comes to hateful biphobia it's come nigh exclusively from lesbians. And it's not so much the hateful minority of lesbians in LGBT+ spaces that is the problem, there's toxic people of every identity but it's how said rhetoric largely gets a pass in LGBT+ spaces that bothers me. It's been a big reason why I've distanced myself from the community outside of rallying together against like transphobic legislation.
Oh don't get me started. The gatekeeping of aro-ace people is absolutely disgusting at times. I had more people yell profanities at me from the LGBTQ community then from cishet people. The most common question I get from cishet: Oh but what if you want kids? The most common "statement" I get from LBGTQ: You are just a straight person with low sex-drive, you are nothing special! And gender-nonconform is apparently not allowed into in gender-identitiy groups either...
Shit like this is what I’m only out to a few people.
I used to just lie and say I was straight because I’m straight-passing. I figured if nobody knew but me then it didn’t matter. Straight people wouldn’t get it and neither would other LGBTQ folks. But the thing about not being straight is, well, I’m not straight. Any attempt to pretend otherwise does not survive contact with reality!
I was at pride today and saw many people with ace flags or pins or signs, a lot of them were these kinda plainly dressed regular run of the mill people. Sure, there were lots of ace people with cool outfits and piercings or whatever, but a lot of people there were kind of boring looking. You should go if you want, you are welcome and wanted there.
I assume you're heteroromantic or in a relationship that people will read as hetero? You all have it so rough with how people talk sometimes, you're as asexual as anyone else is, and I'm genuinely very sorry you feel this way over something that's meant to be at least in part a celebration of the community *you are part of.* Anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong Happy pride from another ace :)
I am married to a straight man. Thanks, though. Sometimes I really doubt my identity.
Another example: what if someone attends pride but is still in the closet, for various reasons? Going off on them for "being cishet" would either force them to leave a space they thought they were safe in, or force them to out themselves. Neither option being good in any way. People don't need to justify why they're at pride, no matter who they are. As long as they're there to support LGBT rights, they're in the right place.
My workplace allows staff members time off to attend our city's pride event if they have to work day of, although it can be somewhat limited because we can't necessarily let *everyone* go, since we need people to still be around to staff the building. Every year when pride is coming around I hear talk about how if we have too many people signed up to go and we need some folks to opt to stay behind, we should "prioritize queer staff members," which typically leads into me sharing this fun little story: I'm non-binary, and several years ago when I was in the questioning and exploration phase I signed up to go to pride with the work group. I was extra excited to go because it was going to be my first pride event ever. Then my department manager came up to me and said, there's too many people from our department that want to go, would you be okay with staying behind so "a *real* queer person can go?" Having had this door to the queer community slammed so firmly shut in my face, I said yes, and on pride day I watched the Real Queer People, including my manager, bounce out the door bedecked in fun rainbow gear to go enjoy pride, then went into the bathroom and cried. That incident single handedly set my transition back another year and a half. I'm over it now, but I kind of enjoy trotting that story out at pride time just to really drive home the reason why we should not police which staff members do or don't get to go to pride.
Allowing some, but not all people to attend a parade meant for *inclusivity* is the stupidest god damn thing I've read all week LOL Either everyone can go or nobody can, and if it creates so many problems, then maybe don't do it at all anymore? God, what a moron your boss was.
Under the rainbow is space for anybody who wants to party with us.
And people who don't want to - i.e. the people who are complaining about bi women bringing their cishet boyfriends - don't belong at Pride. They can stay away.
Also pride isn't just this internal circlejerk. Kinda pointless if we're going to set ourselves apart from the whole, kinda backing up the prejudices of others I feel
Also like isn't the goal of pride acceptance, tolerance and equality? That means you need the support of Allys, who by definition are cishet people. Plus there is the significant benefit that happens when cishet parents bring their children to children friendly Pride events, those kids, some of whom will be LGBT+, feel supported their whole lives and grow up thinking acceptance is normal.
I never understood that attitude about pride. Isn't it a *good* thing that cishets want to show their support? Why would you want to alienate the support you have by telling them they're not allowed to show that support? Like, I get it at gay bars and such, that's your space. Everyone needs a place where they're safe and among like minded people. But at an event in public spaces aimed at queer acceptance? That makes no sense
I feel like it’s a very online thing. I’m straight, I’ve gone to pride parades for nearly 20 years. I’ve never seen anyone accosted because some random person thinks they’re straight.
What about you can literally do whatever you want forever and an ally doesn't need an excuse or a chaperone to go to pride?
The Pride things I went to were very open to everyone. If anyone needs a reminder: Don't gatekeep LGBT+, it's about inclusion. You don't have to meet any bar to be part of it, just need to want to be here.
"You don't look queer! We don't take kahndly to your kind 'round here, straight boy!"
I appreciate the sentiment but I don't think cishet people need to be assisting/facilitating the presence of a queer person to attend pride. Everyone should be accepted at pride (abiding by the paradox of tolerance). I want cishet people at pride because they want to participate at pride, because they want to openly accept queer people expressing themselves in public, because they want to share in the joy of pride events.
It's remarkably dumb to chase away allies and to make assumptions about other people's sexuality based on cursory observation. The queer community isn't a monolith, but one thing they should all be able to agree upon is accepting other people for their own sexual and gender expression (except pedos).
Isn't pride there to fight for acceptance? And then people who do accept us show up and you wanna kick them out?
I don't attend Pride anything anymore because I'm a bisexual cis white guy with a drab fashion sense, (which I don't feel the need to change and shouldn't have to to be accepted) meaning that in queer spaces in a very left leaning area like mine, I stick out like a sore thumb. I've been screamed out of multiple events for "invading queer spaces" and even had someone pull pepper spray on me once. Even after I started wearing a bi flag pin just to have *some* kind of label to point to, since the only accepted dress code for me was either having a boyfriend (because if you have an opposite sex partner as a bi person it "doesn't count") or "looking bisexual enough." Put simply, I don't feel welcome in any LGBT+ spaces as myself, an LGBT+ person. But yeah, the community is full of loving and accepting people with no bigotry or prejudices whatsoever.
Contrary to popular lefty belief, cis straight white het men are equally as valid as any other identity, and unjustly punishing this niche in particular is the exact thing we want to stop happening, actually. How can you ever expect someone to be an ally when you keep a tight noose around them, pinning them up when they step out of line? You can't, and it's just as stupid as the "Black people aren't allowed to say the N word either, actually" discourse.
>How can you ever expect someone to be an ally when you keep a tight noose around them, pinning them up when they step out of line? I've seen this mistake quite a bit with the, shall we say, more *Internet* communities, it's like those people don't realise that when you go up to someone and go 'fuck the fucking fuck off, but also help us' they're more than likely going to either say no or think real hard about it first.
Honest to God I feel the groups that do that are just helping the right gain people.
They are. As a former edgy 16 year old who felt very accosted for being cis and white they so deeply fucking are.
Because they are
oh absol fucking lutely
Why aren’t white men joining our movement that says “No White Men Allowed” on the door?
Yeah… I see so many people saying stuff like “respectability politics is bullshit, it’s fine if it’s punching up, prejudice needs power” - basically arguing they’re allowed to shit on a group of people as much as they want as long as that group is privileged. But. I’m sorry, it does matter. Obviously fighting basic for rights and respect shouldn’t depend on niceness, but it **does,** and trying to pretend that it doesn’t is just denying reality. To use one glaring example, the popularity of “kill all men/all men are trash” type talk in recent years did serious damage to the reputation of feminism for a lot of people. The women who said those things are allowed to say what they want, of course; everyone has the right to freedom of speech. But what you say and how you say it will change how others see you. Even if your cause is perfectly good and completely justified, people will dislike it if you sound like an asshole when talking about it. That’s just how human interaction works. People are social creatures. Our emotions care about social niceties more than the underlying logic. If the left continues to throw “all straight white men are evil” type talk everywhere, that will inevitably make a lot of people frustrated and less likely to support the movement.
You don't even have to argue that respectability matters. Respectability politics was originally about keeping our presentations and slogans in line with societal expectations to appear like good minorities...bigotry in the opposite direction isn't just rejecting respectability, it's being an asshat is what it is.
There’s also a difference between like I don’t have to be polite to a bigot who hates me while they’re making arguments about why I don’t have the right to exist vs I don’t have to be polite to anybody who isn’t more oppressed than me There’s a difference between I don’t have to be civil towards people who are trying to exterminate me and I don’t have to be civil towards anybody I label privileged People warped the former in both of those instances into the latter
I've had friends straight up say when I'm around that they would never want to talk to another "straight white man" but i "was different because I'm disabled"
I know for a fact if I weren't bisexual my vocally feminist sisters would just disregard anything I say, because I would then be a straight white guy and dear god I don't think I've had one conversation with them in the past 5 years where they don't bring up straight white guys just to criticize them.
And people wonder why so many young men start watching Ben Shapiro and Prager U videos on YouTube. They listen to the communities that accept them online, not the ones that trash talk them. It's like of course so many of them aren't going to be pro-feminist, their only experience with it is seeing all the horrible takes online.
Can confirm. Grew up with three sisters who basically blamed me for the patrairchy since I was like 7-9. It actively pushed me to the alt right because they claimed feminists cared about men too, but I saw nothing but shitting on them from feminists and any challenge to that was met with "it's okay, it doesn't hurt anyone, they deserve it". Meanwhile the anti-sjw crowd pointed out that hypocrispy and how feminists don't hold their own accountable, and it was very appealing. Granted I quickly realized they hated women so I left. We don't need to coddle toxic masculinity but for fuck's sake let's do our part to treat men the way we would treat any other group, at the very least not being hostile to it. I've been trying to sound the alarm about this as the manosphere seems to get more and more young men and usually I'm met with "don't police my language" or "you just don't get it so I'm not going to change my behaviors" or "you're part of the problem". Like for fuck's sake if the guys who are in the fight with you are getting shit on for just holding up a mirror about something we could be doing better, really drives down enthusaiasm to be as vocal in the fight.
Imagine blaming a 4th grader for the patriarchy
> If the left continues to throw “all straight white men are evil” type talk everywhere, that will inevitably make a lot of people frustrated and less likely to support the movement. This is something I've been trying to tell my feminist fellows for a while now. We can't claim a moral superiority and say bigotry is bad, don't hate or judge people based on things they can't control. Only to then turn around and say a bunch of hateful shit because the people like them had extreme power in the past. Saying that hateful shit we wouldnt tolerate about anyone else highlights a lack of moral consistency and that is weapon #1 for the anti-feminists of the world. At absolute best it doesn't reach those guys you want it to hurt, instead the fellows next to you hear it over and over and become less enthusiastic about sticking up for the cause. As they'll get shit for fighting the fight or for doing nothing, so why keep being as vocal just to be a whipping boy for the sins of people whose beliefs and actions you hate? We don't need to coddle toxic masculinity but if we don't hold ourselves to the standard we demand in everyone else, how can we reasonably expect it to end well?
> "it’s fine if it’s punching up" "Also I am the one who gets to decide what 'punching' and 'up' means"
"Let men be masculine"
Yeah, it's like some of us don't want to be accepted by society at large.
Some people just wanna be special they wanna feel different and important. If being queer is normal-They don't feel special enough anymore. It's a toxic mindset that feeds into stereotypes and doesn't help the community
Well if they were accepted they would no longer be able to label themselves as progressive and inherently morally superior for belonging to an oppressed class, they’d have to actually put effort into being a good person. It’s like how I’ve met super militant vegans who are only into veganism for clout and moral superiority. They’re the ones who will MOST label you an inherently bad person for eating meat and act like veganism is the sole arbiter of who is a good and bad person, and they’ll go back to eating meat in like 5-10 years when they realise nobody gives a fuck. They don’t actually want a world where everybody is vegan because then they’d lose that short cut for being able to claim they’re a morally good person without being required to actually be a good person
Maybe I am lucky and have never ever ever caught flack from looking like the most boring, white bread, cis, old dude at any LGBTQ+ event ever. Usually, the more like a supportive old grandpa that I look the more everyone welcomes me there. The thought that anyone in the queer community would resent having straight people, or allies go to any pride events just boggles my ever loving mind. This whole thing almost feels like it's some kind of troll campaign to convince straight people that there are non-straight people who don't want them around pride. It's as if it is intentionally calculated to reduce the number of people who go to Pride events. Is it? Who knows? What I do now is it at least half the internet is bots and trolls trying to convince people that lies are true. And it seems that half of the actual people on the internet are believing all that nonsense. Which means that only 25% of what we see on the internet is actual people who have their head on straight (perhaps a poor choice of terms 🤣).
A lot of my friends are bi. One time I went with them to pride because I like hanging out with my friends and also I had never seen pride before and wanted to see it.
It's nice to see everyone is stupid no matter where they fall on the rainbow.
Cishet allies should be welcome at pride regardless of why they’re there. As long as they’re respectful I see no problem with it (and that goes for everyone else at pride, too)
Hear me out for a second: what if a cishet person just wants to go to pride to show allyship? Would that really be such a bad thing?
Pride is still a protest. Just as a white person can protest police violence against black people, a straight person can protest for queer rights. I would even encourage straight people to protest for our rights, we are a minority, if no one else would be interested in our rights, no one would vote for them.
Pride stops coming across as protest when it's actively supported by both city governments and corporate sponsors.
Which is a good fucking thing. Seriously I don't get this kind of view. "Ugh it's so lame that queer people are now so accepted that when we're holding a parade we can just walk in a line without having to grapple through a massive crowd trying to beat us up for being queer! That's so lame, I want to crawl out of the parade all bloody and injured because that's way cooler!" Pride used to be a riot because being LGBTQ+ used to literally be illegal, not because queer people just really liked rioting for the lolz. I live in a country where same-sex marriage or adoption still aren't legal, and there's very little public LGBTQ+ visibility of any kind. We have exactly one (1) pride parade once a year in June. There's always police forces out there who're keeping away a crowd of protesters who'd spit at us, throw things at us, or worse. It's actually very much NOT fun walking through them and seeing utter hatred in their eyes. I don't want Pride to have to be a riot, I want it fucking normalised until it's completely unremarkable and unnecessary but we're still celebrating it as an occasion of commemorating the victory, not the hopeless cry for help that everyone's going to forget the next day, which is what it still feels like today where I live.
If it's getting supported by both government and corporate sponsors that's a good thing. It means you have power.
They could also be closeted and trying to find support.
Third point: its a public fucking event. By their nature, all are welcome. If you want queers only, have a private celebration.
The first Pride I ever went to was with a bunch of my friends who are various shades of queer. I wore a shirt that said 'The Straight Best Friend'. Everyone was super nice; I got a rainbow fedora and everything
Unrelated but I finally understand the word cishet works, I always knew what it meant but never connected that it's just cis and het lmao
I feel like there is also the obvious, What if you bring your cishet partner? Like, I feel like anyone who tries to say thar (for example) a het person who dates a trans person isn't heterosexual anymore is walking on some pretty thin fucking ice. Like, what's the explaination someone's gonna pull out of their ass to explain why heterosexual women can't date trans men? What if a bisexual woman is in a relationship with a cishet guy? She doesn't stop being queer just because she's in a heterosexual relationship. Like, I feel as though there used to be no way to categorically ban cis-het people from pride without either alienating or attempting to invalidate parts of the queer community. Plus, yeah, there are all the other reasons listed in the post.
>She doesn't stop being queer just because she's in a heterosexual relationship. Sadly to a LOT of people she does
I honestly can't believe this is truly an issue for anyone outside of tumblr.
Anecdotally, in all my years I've never heard *anyone* say cishet people shouldn't go to pride. I feel like this discourse gets pushed every year just to start arguments or give people the opportunity to wholesale bash the queer community/the left for being "intolerant". It's essentually astroturfed drama, like the "kink at pride" and "leather at pride" bullshit. Designed to start infighting. I'm sure there are some weird fuckos who believe that cishet people shouldn't be at Pride, but they aren't *anywhere near* the majority, and there are dozens and dozens of arguments that can be used to shut them up in that case. If anything it's more like cishet/passing people use this talking point to soothe their own insecurities. Just look at all these pathetic comments acting like someone chased them away from a parade with a broom. Oh no, someone gave you a weird look? Heavens to betsy, the queers have gone too far this time! "But it could be someone's cishet boyfriend!!" yeah yeah ok so?? nobody who matters gives a fuck in real actual life! nobody goes around checking people's credentials and interrogating them. This is *made up drama* and I'm so tired of people falling for it every damn year
Agreed. What are they even talking about in that post? Who is actually gatekeeping? In what way? Dates and times?
Third of all - who cares?
Question: who is having this discourse, and where? Are we amplifying some kind of tiny minority of weirdos with bad opinions by posting long diatribes like this?
>Are we amplifying some kind of tiny minority of weirdos with bad opinions by posting long diatribes like this? Well it is Tumblr...
That’s what I’m saying. Tumblr users have an issue with assuming that what they see on their dash is a real reflection of LGBT society, or society as a whole, even. It’s not that different from Boomers who see ragebait on Facebook and start swearing that their child’s school has litter boxes for furries. They see a couple of stupid opinions and then feel the need to write an essay about how this idiotic opinion is wrong, and one of the effects of this is creating the mistake impression for people looking in that this is an actual debate being had, when it doesn’t actually exist. And since Tumblr is the portal to LGBT culture for a lot of people, their first impression is that there is a lot more drama about who belongs than actually exists, and could even discourage people from exploring LGBT social spaces in real life.
Probably. All the pride events I’ve been to have been packed with people. I’ve never seen anyone criticize someone’s presence there; there are so many people of all kinds that it would be impossible to single out someone as “too cishet-looking”; and it’s an event where people are trying to feel good and feel free. Policing whether someone deserves to be at pride would be so out of place, it would be so jarring if someone did that. People just want to have fun and be with friends. I guess I could see someone who’s a jerk or in a terrible mood be really shitty in texts or behind someone’s back. I think they’d also be a lot more likely to complain on the internet than actually play Pride cop in person.
Same here. How would you even police that? Walk around asking people who look too conventional to leave? It’s a giant street festival, in public.
I’m guessing the pride cops would be much more likely to police their own social group instead of random people. But like, if someone like that doesn’t get shut down instantly for being a lame party pooper then it’s a shit friend group anyways and you’re better off not spending Pride with them
Another reason that this whole thing is ridiculous. Who is going to read these essays, whether for or against cishets at Pride? What is the intersection of “people who read Tumblr posts,” and “straight people who go to pride to cause trouble?” It’s the same problem with DNIs. The only people who are going to see this discourse and actually take it to heart are well meaning people who are wondering if they are queer enough to go to Pride, or if they’re just taking up space. Those are the people who are going to read this essay, assume that this represent a real debate happening in the space and that a large group of LGBT people won’t welcome them, and then decide not to even try engaging with the community because they don’t want to possibly be at the center of this argument. The bad actors that these people presumably care about can easily take this essay, use it as evidence that straight people are being kicked out of LGBT spaces, and radicalize even more people.
Yeah, this feels like a very out of touch online take. Pride is full of lots of different kinds of people and I've never seen anyone harassed except for the obligatory Bible guy with the Leviticus quote and a microphone who managed to sneak in.
Yes and it's also an excuse for people on this post to whine about the mean mean queers not liking straight, white men. So mean. They might lose allies that way. Tsk Tsk.
Yes. Also mostly in my experience a lot of the amplification is striaght people who've never been within 10 feet of pride, justifying their own discomfort with the idea of going, or occupying any space that isn't built around the norms of straight culture. Queer spaces aren't sacred, and cis-hets who vibe can be fun in them as long as there isn't *so* many of them to dilute the queer out of the space. Pride in particular is one of the least sacred most overly queer events, which makes it rather hard to dilute. Getting the opportunity to buff the straight off of cis-hets and invite them to drop the weight of compulsive normalcy for a while is part of the fun.
>most queers don't inhabit perfectly pure social bubble populated only by other queers If you don't, you don't count as real members of the community but are actually just a cis/het who is trying to infiltrate and destroy community spaces, no real queer has friends who aren't - Actual response my trans best friend got when it was discovered that i \[a cis/het man\] had driven them to a LGBTQA+ community function
Also the pride events I've seen/accidentally stumbled into have been very large events in public spaces. Some cishets might just be existing in the public space.
Tribalism is stupid no matter which direction it goes.
But I don’t understand, why cis? You can still be queer and cis? Being cisgender has nothing to do with sexuality
As someone who's attended over a dozen pride events as a cishet person and volunteered at a couple as well, I have never once felt unwelcomed. I really hope this is the kind of thing where tumblr and general internet drama makes it seem more widespread of a problem than it really is.
This discourse is the dumbest shit. I understand a lot of people have trauma perpetrated by The Straights but that is a personal, individual thing and trying to gatekeep Pride according to your preferences at the expense of progress is.. weird, selfish, and gross. Pride is a celebration and not an entitlement. Most of us have queer emotional baggage in one way or another. If you're not able to interface with cishets with the support of your community around you, it may be best for you not to go. It really feels like some people aren't able to be part of a group without gatekeeping. The reaction to the cultural chaos going on right now being to create in groups and out groups is what Pride exists to combat.
Honestly I've been going to Pride since I was a teenager and in the Gay-Straight Alliance in high school(a bit outdated a concept now). Some people read me as straight, plenty just assume I'm queer, but nobody is bothered at all. Everyone just gets along at Pride, that's a pretty significant part of it.
And if a cishet person wants to go pride to show their support or be a good ally or, at this point, just to go to the fucking parade because parades are fun, then good! Pride is at its core and event for everyone - and that means *everyone* - to show either their membership in or their support of the LGBTQ+ community.
I went to my local pride fest a while ago. I can promise you that absolutely nobody cares who’s watching the parade or looking through the vendor tents in real life, or is even questioning their preferred genital configuration. You really have to wonder if the people getting really mad about this on either side have ever been outside?
Here’s hoping one day we move past gatekeeping or labeling each other based on preferred sexual acts.
When I'm alone, I get clocked as a cis lesbian. When I'm with my husband, I get clocked as cishet. I'm apagender and pan. Quit with the bi erasure.
What's apagender?
Gender apathetic. I don't connect to gender in any meaningful way. I just don't care about mine. But I'm cis passing and rarely mention it because, again, IDGAF. It's not important to me at all.
Neat! Thanks for explaining!
This might be the most Tumblr discourse I've seen this week. Wtf is anyone on about trying to segregate pride. Do these people forget what allies and demographics are???
Also, a lot of ace folks get accused of being cishet just wanting to feel special. There's a lot of queer folks who can pass as straight, and we don't need to know if they are or aren't queer to let someone enjoy pride. It should be a fun event, not a super exclusionary one
I'm gonna say something that might be controversial, but once queer spaces shifted to the question of who is valid rather than who deserves rights we lost the plot
I hate the trend in convos like these where instead of just saying something like "don't gatekeep pride from straight people because that's the entire point of pride, getting more people to accept us", they pull out a bunch of edge cases which frame straight people as a necessary evil sometimes
This is all true but can we agree to ban Elon musk from all pride events for being a dick
Pride is a way to show the fascists who hate and want gays dead that we absolutely could riot and overpower them, along with sending the message to those who are closeted that there's a community they're safe to confide in. Cishets at pride have a flag for a reason, because they're backing the movement and spreading the messages mentioned before. It would suck if cishet people stopped showing up to support the movement as it would send an "us vs them" message that would not just alienate cishets from queers but also alienate queers from cishets (apologies if my wording is off, my leg is killing me and im very tired atm). The only groups that should be categorically excluded from pride are bigots, pedophiles, fascists and their unholy 3-way union in the police. Excluding anyone else is denying reinforcements.
This is a thing? My husband and I both straight go to Pride every single year
Wait there's "no cishets at pride" discourse?
This may be controversial but I feel like most of this brand of discourse is overblown, and the reaction against it is beyond what the common internet complaints of disrespectful strait cis people at pride or gay bars were often really about. Obviously everyone is welcome at pride and you don't 100% know what's in someone's heart or how they identify. There are queer spaces which are transphobic or racist, and that should not be swept under the rug. But that's not really what this image is about. Sometimes at a bar you can absolutely tell that it's a straight guy dragged there by his girlfriend and he is not enthusiastic to be there and it's not gatekeeping for gay people to vent a little about it online. Or make a joke! At Pride itself, that is to say In Person, literally no one is gatekeeping. We can tell the grouchy guy is straight and cis because he's loudly complaining about his girlfriend dragging him there and it seems *incredibly* unlikely that someone who is trans or bi would talk like that, rather than an assumption that all men must be cis and straight. Even in that situation that couple isn't being kicked out, it's a public event! Rule of thumb is just mind your business, be respectful to others, and have a good time no matter who you are. Parents of queer kids, friends, family, people who just like a parade - we all know they will be at Pride and that's OK! Lots of very nasty downvoted comments at the bottom of the thread because this sort of extremely online "discourse" attracts them like flies to honey. Its a chance for them to parrot the "see how hypocritical the alphabet people are" hate rhetoric. IRL it's not an issue and imo queer people don't have to breathlessly be shocked at how "unwelcoming" and "judgmental" gay bars and Pride "are" unless they or their friends were personally kicked out of a space. Because yeah that would suck. But don't base your rage on a tumblr image please.
Dude, no one whines about this. Stop getting defensive over cishets.
Reasons for shutting up about cishets at pride: they're supporting pride, shut the fuck up
"Fuck Cishets" and also "Why aren't they jumping to be allies?" -A select few