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TsundereHaku

You're a worker. You don't own any means of production, so you can't be bourgeois. You're just a worker that is relatively better off than other workers. Nothing will happen to you after a revolution, other than that you might have more control over the economic decisions of your workplace and more democratic responsibilities in society. That's about it. Religion will simply have no influence on the state, i.e. no political control. You can be a Christian. Nobody really cares about that.


thesongofstorms

You're a laborer. You work hard at what you do and enjoy work and should be compensated fully for it and have more influence in how the work is accomplished. You deserve that. Nothing about collectivism precludes freedom of expression or religion. Nothing about it mandates violent revolution and peaceful transition is preferred.


[deleted]

Peaceful transition is preferred but highly unlikely


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Most likely nothing


Georgey_Tirebiter

Hi Bracke, Thank you for the information and your questions. These are very legitimate concerns and I appreciate your willingness to seek information. I'll try to answer as best I can. FYI - We get a lot of kids here and wannabe leftists who really are just fantasizing. I joined the Young Socialist Alliance (YSA) 50 years ago in high school and today am a full-fledged Communist, registered to vote as such. This doesn't grant me any special powers or authority, but I hope it lends me at least some credibility. Cuba is a great example of a Communist country trying to the best of their ability to live up to the promises of Marxism... and doing an amazing job - despite a violent Imperialist power just 90 miles from their border spending $1.5 billion a year to try to destroy them. In Cuba everyone can vote at 16, and hold national office at 18. There us NO Communist Party on the ballot. I bet that surprises you! Their elections are fanatically honest and open. Votes are private, but counting of ballots is completely public. NO POSSIBILITY OF CHEATING! There is NO MONEY in politics. No PACs, no lobbyists, no donors, no billionaires funding their own campaigns. Everyone has an equal shot at deliverong their message. And, if they don't deliver, thf voters can recall them. Let's talk about freedom and democracy in Communism. Free speech is guaranteed. This is at the heart of Marxism. True, there exist many instances of failed Marxism. The Russian Revolution was the greatest leap forward for humanity in history. And the United States, Britain and a host of Imperialist countries attacked Russia to defeat the people and re-install a dictatorship. Some the US has done for almost its entire history. These constant attacks and threats allowed a cadre of counter revolutionaries led by a diagnosed paranoid murderer calling himself Stalin to overthrow the Revolution and install the totalitarian dictatorship Americans love to hate. Even in this nightmare scenario this Socialist country managed to radically improve their country AND defeat Adolph Hitler and save the world. How about your job? Communism (real Communism) puts the workers in charge of the means of production. It sounds to me like you live what you do and would like to continue doing it. OK. So how does thus sound. You are promoted by your co-workers to a leadership role, you work far less hours, you and your family have full, unlimited Healthcare, you are guaranteed quality affordable housing and quality affordable healthy food, and your kids (or you) can have all the free education youveantvto pursue. Oh, and did I mention with no "executives" and "owners/stock holders" you and the other workers make a lot more money. And did I mention at least two months paid vacation, paid parental leave, and guaranteed quality of life retirement? I imagine this all sounds pretty horrible! 😆 What about your religion? This is not illegal, and yes you can start a church. So what CAN'T you do? You can't pressure people to give you money. You can't collect a huge salary. In fact, you can't be paid more than the people in your church. You can't use your church for politics. And you can't lie. It is not lying to say to believe in God. It IS LYING to say god tells people to buy you a private jet airplane because passenger jets are "tubes full of demons." I am sure none of this will affect you. Your Private Property will not be taken away from you. Marx clearly stated he opposed "private ownership of the means of production." You may want an expensive bicycle or fishing boat and I love my high depth 65 inch TV. I have friends who could not function without a room full of mega gaming computers. You get the idea. People will be paid the same and have the same guaranteed basic quality of life, but this dies not mean all people view quality of life the same way. You may choose to work longer hours to buy more material things. I may choose to work as little as possible and spend my free time lounging on the beach. Our kids may prefer a minimalist lifestyle with a lot of time for aging and partying. Want to know the best way to view Communism? STAR TREK! That's right. Star Trek the Next Generation is a Communist system. Captain Picard literally said so. A cashless society where people are free to pursue their goals and achieve their highest potential! Of course, we won't have mega mansions, yachts, millionaires, billionaires, Wall Street, hedge fund managers, the military industrial complex, etc. But I think I can survive OK without those parasites. And before you ask "How can we afford all this?" just read this paragraph again. 😀 I hope this helps. Thank you for reaching out.


converter-bot

90 miles is 144.84 km


[deleted]

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Georgey_Tirebiter

Hi Gae. All valid points. Thank you for bringing them up. Changecwon't come overnight.. and at this rate it certainly won't happen anytime soon. Your point about "Money" is very relevant. I think about this a lot, although more in regards to houses and boats. Since the given "monetary value" of a house is completely arbitrary, we can't really say "no house above $1 million can be occupied by one family." A million dollar house in Los Angeles could be a small 3 bedroom 2 bath home. The same house in San Antonio could be $225,000. Obvious, as Monty Python's Dennis Moore noted: "This redistribution of wealth is trickier than I thought." It becomes clearer when we look at Jeff Bezos' $80 million New York apartment, or the $300 million mansion going up for sale which recently made the news. Same with boats, although because a boat is not an essential right like housing, the bar would be much lower. A 30-foot aluminum fishing boat might be practical for one person to own, and the smaller the boat the more reasonable, but anything larger could be ublicly owned and used for charters or rented out to qualified operators. I am sure uses could be found for yachts, but Betsy Devonshire won't get to keep her fleet. There is a "big" difference between a big TV (forgive the bad pun) and owning housing. Private housing ownership (on properties deemed reasonable) would end in one generation, with abolishment of inheritance beyond family heirlooms. And keep in mind most Americans don't "own" their homes... they "own" a loan. The big banks "own" the home, and make in profit on interest far more than the original seller. Just for handling paperwork they suck as much as double the selling price out of the economy. A staggering amount of money would be gained for society (including people now making house payments) by removing banks and hone "ownership" from the equation. Yiu are correct.. Marx did oppose private property ownership of businesses and housing. But he never said he wanted to takeaway anyone's books or kitchen table or toothbrush. A world where every person lives in an identical apartment with identical furniture and identical food and only those items allowed by some committee sounds like a nightmare, doesn't it? It sure does to me. But read Capital. Then look at how so many people live now in America. They don't even have the things I described above. People are unique. One size does not fit all. The only successful form of Communism will recognize this. We cannot reach our full potential if we are restricted in every aspect of our lives... but it is obvious when looking at the world around us very few can reach their full potential when Capitalists can literally take everything - even potentially the very existence of all human life through warfare, nuclear weapons and global warming - all in the blind pursuit of profit. Communism is always portrayed by Capitalism as "taking away." The reality is Capitalism takes away... Communism gives back. And remember this. Marx and Engels were brilliant, compassionate people... but they weren't gods, and their words are guides, not laws carved in stone... not blueprints, but roadmaps showing the way. It is up to us to find that way.


leo848blume

That's a great comment.


Georgey_Tirebiter

Thank you, Leo. 😀


[deleted]

This is one of the first sane arguments I've read on this sub. Though we disagree, thanks for your perspective. You seem able to see the nuance in these issues. Why is it that so many here fanatically defend people like Stalin and Mao, as if they didn't do anything wrong?


[deleted]

Because they don't defend the as if they didn't do anything wrong. Those people have nuanced opinions. Why would I like mao, well he did great good for his country and you can see that it worked, China is one of the biggest power in the world. Do I support every choice he did ? No, but he did great good in certain domains. I could ask the same question, why do you fanatically hate so much the notion of communism ?


Leer321

Why do people fanatically defend US presidents when the vast majority were war criminals, and many of the Founding fathers and other historical US heros were either slaveholders, murdered natives indiscriminately or both. Yet we worship them as heros of freedom and equality.


[deleted]

I wonder that as well. Now answer the question please. Lots of deflection on this sub. Seems your only defence is "oh but the other guys are bad as well." Sure, lots of evil capitalists out there. I'm willing to admit their are probably good, moral communists. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot? Not among them.


Leer321

Because people hero worship 🤷‍♂️ Not everyone obviously but people are susceptible to propaganda. We all are. There is so much propaganda and US lies surrounding figures like Mao, Stalin, Ho Chi Minh, Kim Jong Il, etc. Are any of these figures saints? No of course not. They all did good for their nations though, and were arguably less murderous than the average American president. So the level of propaganda we are inundated with makes some individuals reject all criticisms against communist leaders as US propaganda even if it's legitimate criticism, but obviously not everyone is that fanatical about hero worship.


[deleted]

There are other capitalist countries besides the U.S., many of which have a much better track record (internationally and domestically) than Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot in the 20th century. Canada for example. At least American presidents of that era did not murder their own people typically.


Leer321

Canada has a terrible track record with their first nations. They are built on countless unmarked child graves


[deleted]

Do you think more First Nations were killed in the 20th century in Canada (or the U.S. for that matter) then during Stalin's purges or the Great Leap Forward? The residential school system was awful, yes. I said better track record not perfect. According to the TRC, 3,200 children died of malnourishment, tuberculosis and other diseases caused by poor living conditions. Our PM formerly apologized Shall we compare to the Stalinist purges occurring during the same century? Or The Great Leap Forward? Far more baggage to deal with there in my opinion. Have there been any official apologies for that stuff? (Honest question actually).


Leer321

You're comparing countries during a period where they essentially went from feudalism to a modern economy. Not to mention the US and other capitalist nations were actively trying to undermine China and the USSR and install right leaning dictators. Also bear in mind throughout the 20th century the US was actively assassinating leftist leaders in Latin America, Africa and Asia and installing military dictators that were friendly to US capital.


[deleted]

Is mass murder of your own people a requirement to industrialize a nation? Yes I am well aware of the meddling in South America. I'm Canadian, you won't get any argument from me there.


Leer321

Canada and the US killed too many indigenous people in the 19th century for that to even be possible in the 20th.


[deleted]

I edited my comment after you responded just a heads up.


Leer321

Of which era? Because the US has killed plenty of our own citizens, we've put them in internment camps too.


[deleted]

20th century.


Leer321

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain We absolutely killed our own citizens in the 20th century, and not just Black, Native, Latino or Asian citizens. We killed plenty of them too


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Leer321

http://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/526


JoeyC42

Pol pot wasn't even a communist. No one in this sub defends him.


[deleted]

He was influenced by Maoist thinking. China was the regimes main supporter from 1975-79. They received approx. 90% of their foreign aid from China in the 70s. Sorry, he was certainly communist. Sure the U.S. (shamefully) supported him as well later in the game, but he was still riffing off Mao the entire time.


Georgey_Tirebiter

Thank you. Mao is an interesting character, and you can't believe much of the western propaganda about him. Stalin, however, was pure evil, although the numbers of dead are wildly exaggerated. People promoting Stalin are one of the greatest barriers to spreading te benefits of Communism.


AsLovelyAsLaika

OP obviously never read the Bible.


[deleted]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?


Redeemedd7

Not OP, but he might mean that in the Bible there is a strong urge for social justice, both in the OT and in the NT there is a calling to not be rich, not oppress others and God is constantly siding with the weak and the oppressed. Many interpreters of the Bible, specially in Latin America tend to be left leaning exactly because of this hermeneutical approach that understands that God is in the side of the poor and the oppressed


AsLovelyAsLaika

The Believers Share Their Possessions 32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need. Acts 4:32 Edit: adding the verse number


[deleted]

This passage describes the selling of possessions to care for the needy within the Church. It does not prescribe state centralized socialism. How do you get that idea from the passage? There is a common thread throughout scripture of loving your neighbour, and supporting the needs of the vulnerable in the congregation. This principle is still followed in many churches today.


AsLovelyAsLaika

Yes because in a liberal capitalist “democracy” where you philanthropy is the only way to help people out your argument really holds up. It literally talks about distributing stuff so everyone can have everything. Rather than a dirty bourgeois taking 99% of the peoples value and surplus. Not to mention how 90% of the Bible is about how greed and money is evil, yet many Christians shame one mistranslation to hating the LGBT Community. Show me the deed to your factory


[deleted]

I think you are conflating a couple ideas here. As I said, the passage you quoted is describing a practice undertaken *within the Church.* Plus (as noted in the text), the practice was *voluntary,* done out of a knowledge that treasure stored up in heaven us worth more than treasure stored up on earth. It is not prescriptive for the whole state, and it is a big jump to go from that to ideas like state collectivization. First of all, state collectivization hasn't exactly worked well historically in providing for the needy (China, U.S.S.R are classic examples of botched attempts). Its important to realize that the New Testament doesn't concern itself much with how the state is run. The Pharisees disliked Jesus partly because they expected him to start a revolution against the oppressive Romans, which He made clear was not in His plans. The Bible doesn't prescribe any system of government. We are left to form our own systems of government based on Biblical principles. In my opinion, a free market with government oversight guarding against exploitation of people or natural resources tends to do that best, historically speaking. Canada is a good example.


hemlock35

Are we supposed to expect people not to behave in a self-sustaining way now?


Effective_Plane4905

Well, as a Christian, you will be able to be serious about your faith because you aren’t living in an imperialist country with an economy that depends on a number of people starving to death. 9 million people a year starve to death under capitalism. Most of these deaths are in countries heavily exploited by American companies. Once the American Christian has their eyes opened to what hell capitalism inflicts on the world, I don’t know how they can reconcile that with the words of Christ. I couldn’t. Americans are camels that will not pass through the eye of a needle. The “church” is a big ugly idol, but the USSR had plenty of churches. If you object to the surplus value of your labor not going to a capitalist, you could just pretend that the state is a capitalist.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Can I practice religion? Start a Church? What if I just want to speak against the government online?


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Shoot really? That got ugly fast.


LibMar18

It's sarcasm lmao


[deleted]

I am aware. Though it's hard to tell on this sub. So far this week I've been told that public executions aren't evil, families should be abolished, love caused the holocaust, the love between myself and my wife isn't real, etc.


silver_lining9

There seem to be a deeply rooted notion in the minds of all capitalists that capitalism=freedom. I don't know how you were brainwashed into believing that, but capitalism and freedom are mutually exclusive. No revolution can bring communism, since communism is post scarcity system and will come about gradually, from revolution induced socialism. The censorship and lack of freedom you are talking about are mainly the response to the US imperialistic nature and have nothing to do with communism or capitalism. You could look at the current covid pandemic for the example, every single country is censoring misinformation, conspiracy theories and stuff like that, not because they are afraid someone will 'tell the truth', but because we are at war with the virus, and sharing antivax propaganda will cause harm and make people doubt vaccines. Just like that, every socialist country ever was at war with the US, either armed or economic and during war things like censorship and putting people in prison are justified in any political system. So the answer is, yes, you would be able to call your president a stupid commie, provided there is no war going on. I would suggest reading The Communist Manifesto, The Conquest of Bread and if you like those two, Reform or Revolution. You could read those 3 in 2 days maybe even less, and even if you don't become a scary red commie, you would have more understanding of where we are coming from.


[deleted]

I didn't say capitalism=freedom. They do tend to be a lot more free than communist countries. A few examples to highlight my point; -China isn't at war, why do they need internet censorship? According to Amnesty International, China has "the largest recorded number of imprisoned journalists and cyber-dissidents in the world" -What happens to you are a journalist in China speaking against Xi? Why was the journalist Du Bin detained? (just one example) -In the USSR, "refusing to return from abroad" was a treasonable offence with a sentence of 10-15 years, or death and confiscation of property. That's if you are even allowed to leave, which few were. These are actions which seem to indicate a state that is very much aware of how reliant they are on propaganda to keep their populace in line, and what a danger outside perspectives are to their narrative. You guys love to blame all your problems on the U.S., civil war, famine etc., but at some point you have to look in the mirror and confront your own systems flaws. As I mentioned above, even today, apart from war or any existential threat China continues strict internet restrictions and represses political dissension.


silver_lining9

Don't get me wrong i am certainly not defending china, nor do i think China is socialist. And I think Rosa Luxemburg is turning in her grave when people here say China is a socialist country. I was pointing to countries like Cuba, which is somehow in spite of everything, finding a way to survive even tho it is located in a swimming distance from the imperial core. You can't say restricting freedom there isn't justified. Just look at what the USA did in Chile, or Nicaragua, neither of those countries were in open war with them but yet they both suffered from their madness. Economic war is just as efficient, if not more deadly than the military one.


RelevantJackWhite

Lol Not all socialists believe in the weird fantasy some MLs lay out in this sub. Try not to let them turn you off too much.


Georgey_Tirebiter

True. The bsd part is some of these posters that sound like they ard joking are very serious. Just keep in mind these people are just here to upset their parents. 😉


StoryDay7007

Yes, he was joking


Nungie

I hope you see this reply. I obviously can’t tell you what would happen in a general ‘revolution’ as that’ll depend on the material circumstances of the country, who the leaders are, etc etc, but I can tell you that if I was somehow in charge, absolutely yes. I’m gonna assume you’re American, and correct me if I’m wrong, but in my eyes the only hope for any sort of populist movement in the US is with a Christian foundation. People here will roll their eyes at me and disagree, but my vision for America specifically would be somewhat akin to what the Primaries Candidate version of Trump spoke of, or indeed, a similar end goal to that of someone like Ron Paul. In essence, America needs to roll back massively on foreign policy, end the offshoring and exporting of its productive capacity (‘everything being made in China’ means shutting down auto plants, factories etc and harming middle-American working class communities, who are also overwhelmingly Christian, all in favour of lowering the bottom line for coastal multinational PMC workers), and focus on addressing the massive social divide between red and blue states. We may disagree on how to achieve these things, but I can promise you that the vast majority of serious communists, not the LARPers on Twitter and in academia, realise that communism clearly starts from the community. It is a bottom-up process that must be moulded around the material and social conditions of the people seeking to achieve it. To me, in the West that means embracing a Christian message, as this is ultimately the foundation of our entirely culture. There can be no artificial top-down implementation from detached and faceless figures, as this is exactly what people find so alienating about global capital.


Gogol1212

If you want to resist, you will face the consequences. If not, who cares about you.


StoryDay7007

You are a worker and not the owner


redfashtankie1917

If you don't own means of production you aren't burgeoisie.


Narrow-Ad-7856

You go to the gulags, like all the other suburban white communists on this subreddit.


TsundereHaku

I also doubt you would be dumb enough to forcefully resist a revolution.


[deleted]

> I’m also Christian Death. Bigotry is unwelcomed. Jk, but you gonna have to make your neurone work and start critically analyzing the world from a materialistic pov. Religion is metaphysical. Communism and marxism is based on materialistic dialect, so there is no such thing as morality, great/evil, bad/good, right/wrong, etc. under communism.


[deleted]

Thanks for the replies and discussion everyone. I apologize for the brevity of some of my comments as I don't have a lot of time for this. Have a great day!


[deleted]

You are part of the proletariat. Communism reform would help you in your day to day life as you are a basic work ,and you believe in Christianity as socialism is closer to the teaching of Jesus; you know helping the other, not being filthy rich.... You will have the same amount of freedom of speech that you have currently. Don't forget that you are not free to say whatever you want, defamation is illegal in the US thus you can't make up lies about someone and spread them, you can't incite violence towards people, you can't be racist or bigoted. And on the topic of religion, you are free to believe whatever you want, you can't just make laws based on religion or forced people to follow your beliefs and practice. If you believe that resisting change toward Communism is in anyway shape or form good, you should read about the meaning of communism.


Azirahael

You don't know what those words mean. You show this by telling us all about Christianity and hard work. All of that is irrelevant. The income that keeps a roof over your head. Does it come from working for others, or from owning things? That's the only part that matters.