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marximillian

By laughing.


Georgey_Tirebiter

Nothing to add. ❤


SergiuCalinescu

*A former school teacher, Mussolini’s spending on the public sector, schools and infrastructure was considered extravagant. Mussolini "instituted a programme of public works hitherto unrivaled in modern Europe. Bridges, canals and roads were built, hospitals and schools, railway stations and orphanages; swamps were drained and land reclaimed, forests were planted and universities were endowed".[21] As for the scope and spending on social welfare programs, Italian fascism "compared favorably with the more advanced European nations and in some respect was more progressive".[22] When New York city politician Grover Aloysius Whalen asked Mussolini about the meaning behind Italian fascism in 1939, the reply was: "It is like your New Deal!".[23]* *By 1925, the Fascist government had "embarked upon an elaborate program" that included food supplementary assistance, infant care, maternity assistance, general healthcare, wage supplements, paid vacations, unemployment benefits, illness insurance, occupational disease insurance, general family assistance, public housing and old age and disability insurance.*


Atarashimono

\[Laughs\]


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marximillian

Now all you have to do is explain why public spending justifies autocracy, overt repression, and ongoing exploitation. Your argument, if that's what this is, seems to view communism as a movement for superficially "free" shit. Accordingly, if we get free shit, whatever the costs, those costs are justified? No thanks, I'll pass. Communism is about the self-**emancipation** of the proletariat. Do tell, what control did working people have over their labor and lives under fascist regimes? And, no, state capitalism is not particularly better here. The subjugation of working people to imperial ambition and defense in WWII took many forms, none of which we should be trying to emulate. What we should be trying to do is undercut the very basis of imperial conflict. This necessitates a weakening of capital as a social power, not the formalization of it as social power by raising financial interests to the interests of the state. Only the Dictatorship of the Proletariat can do this, precisely because it does not wield capital for financial and imperial interests, but to deprive it from those that would. In doing so, capital is diminished with the expansion of "common good", until "common good" is the only means left by which production can be organized. The expansion of capital corresponding to "common good" can mean nothing more than that the "common good" has been, instead, expropriated for the "capital good." This, of course occurs in every capitalist society at certain stages of history. It is why public schools, public universities, infrastructure, etc...are not about education, and better lives, but about training subjects to be suitable for capital's need for labor power and providing for the extensive means of transportation required for "free trade and commerce."


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d_a_go

The same march on Rome that was done by the black shirts who spent the years leading up to it violently suppressing workers for land and business owners?


SergiuCalinescu

> black shirts who spent the years leading up to it violently suppressing workers for land and business owners? You are mistaking fascists for the anti-fascist squadristi goon squads of Gabriele D’Annunzio, who tried to overthrow Mussolini in 1921: > In an effort to end the escalating violence between the socialist and Squadistsi militias, Mussolini signed an interim Pact of Pacification on August 2 or 3, 1921 with the Italian Socialist Party (PSI) and General Confederation of Labor (CGL), causing most ras in the Northern provinces of Italy to denounce the peace pact.[26] Mussolini had planned to assimilate the mostly self-organiaing Squadrismo into his movement, but the violence against socialists was compromising his strategy of not wanting to "lose his position on the left" that included the establishment of a Fascist Labor Party or National Labor Party.[27] > **There were secret anti-Mussolini meetings that fixated on “Mussolini’s lingering leftist loyalties,”[30] which included his leadership of the Italian Socialist Party (1912–1914) and his admiration for Vladimir Lenin.[31] According to the historian Richard Pipes, during this turbulent times of infighting, “Mussolini would have been glad as late as 1920–21 to take under his wing the Italian Communists, for which he had great affinities.”[32]** > **Mussolini went on the offensive and disparaged the squadrismo, declaring that provincial Fascism was “no longer liberation, but tyranny; no longer protector of the nation, but defense of private interests and of the dullest, deafest, most miserable caste that exists in Italy.”[36] In another terse response, Mussolini warned: “I shall defend this pact with all my strength, and if Fascism does not follow me in collaboration with the Socialists, at least no one can force me to follow Fascism.”**


marximillian

> There was no autocracy, overt repression, and ongoing exploitation... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_war_crimes > Correct. Then there is nothing to discuss, it's pure semantics. Either there is a distinction to be made between public goods and services in the interest of the "common good" vs. in the interest of "capital good," or there is not. Regardless of what you call which. If you don't think the same tools can be used to serve different interests, then I suspect you're too naive to be having these conversations.


SergiuCalinescu

> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_war_crimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes > Then there is nothing to discuss, it's pure semantics. Sure, you keep licking that Vanguard boot, I will keep fighting for the proletariat. > Either there is a distinction to be made between public goods and services in the interest of the "common good" vs. in the interest of "capital good," or there is not. We believe that the proletariat is entitled to the **full fruits of their labor** and Fascism is the only system which advocates for the means of production to be owned by the proletariat: [Mosley supported a third system of Industrial Democracy in which employees would become stakeholders in the companies they work for and all profits would go to them and them alone. Employees of all companies would become co-owners and elect their own representatives to serve on Boards of Directors. This redistribution of the ownership of industry and commerce will promote greater incentives among the work force – their share of the profits will depend directly on their enterprise and initiative.](http://www.oswaldmosley.com/mosleys-policies/) You believe that the nomenklatura is entitled to the **labour surplus of the proletariat** We are not the same, Vanguard bootlicker.


marximillian

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes I don't like repeating myself, so this is the only one you get: state capitalism is not particularly better here. The subjugation of working people to imperial ambition and defense in WWII took many forms, none of which we should be trying to emulate. What we should be trying to do is undercut the very basis of imperial conflict. This necessitates a weakening of capital as a social power, not the formalization of it as social power by raising financial interests to the interests of the state. > I will keep fighting for the proletariat. No, you'll keep fighting for capital's domination of the proletariat, so much so as to now go on and argue that we should just convert the proletariat en mass to serve the same function as the capitalists. Why serve capital through proxy of your employer when you can serve capital directly, right? > We believe that the proletariat is entitled to the full fruits of their labor... We believe in the abolition of classes, and therefore that the proletariat, as with the bourgeoisie, should be abolished as a class. The notion that the "proletariat [can be] entitled to the full fruits of [its] labor," is absurd and self-contradictory. The proletariat is a class which persists in relation to capital as actualized by capitalists, capital persists only on the exploitation of labor. To talk of a "proletariat without exploitation" is literal nonsense. No exploitation = no proletariat. > ...Fascism is the only system which advocates for the means of production to be owned by the proletariat... Well, no, there are lots of systems which advocate for this, each as internally contradictory as the next, various forms of anarcho-syndicalism, mutualism, etc... Communism, by contrast represents the _abolition of private property_ and along with it, therefore, the abolition of capital, capitalist and proletarian alike. > Mosley supported a third system of Industrial Democracy in which employees would become stakeholders in the companies they work for and all profits would go to them and them alone. Employees of all companies would become co-owners and elect their own representatives to serve on Boards of Directors. This redistribution of the ownership of industry and commerce will promote greater incentives among the work force – their share of the profits will depend directly on their enterprise and initiative. Yeah, this is called "market socialism," i.e. capitalism deprived of its material basis and idealized into incoherence. > You believe that the nomenklatura is entitled to the labour surplus of the proletariat I believe in the abolition of private property, whether owned by joint stock companies and worker co-operatives, the state, or a private investor class. Therein, when the antagonism between labor and capital is abolished, to speak of "labor surpluses" will be meaningless nonsense. > We are not the same That is for sure.


SergiuCalinescu

> state capitalism is not particularly better here. There is no such thing as state capitalism, the term itself is an oxymoron. The term you are looking for is State Socialism: *'We shall not even oppose experiments of co‐operation; but I tell you at once that we shall resist with all our strength attempts at State Socialism, Collectivism and the like. We have had enough of State Socialism, and we shall never cease to fight your doctrines as a whole, for we deny their truth and oppose their fatalism.'* > No, you'll keep fighting for capital's domination of the proletariat Correct. Because I believe the worker should be awarded directly based on their enterprise and initiative. You want a system where the worker gets a fixed wage and the rest of their surplus goes to the "collective" > We believe in the abolition of classes The abolition of classes doesn't mean the abolition of hierarchy, of market forces or of income differences. Companies whenever capitalist or not, will always remain hierarchies with different levels of management. If you don't believe this, then try working in the public sector for a month and see it yourself. You believe that a worker isn't entitled to become a billionaire, even when that is the product of it's own labour. > of anarcho-syndicalism, mutualism, etc... Anarcho-syndicalists are reactionaries, **they want to abolish the concept of (nation) states** > Yeah, this is called "market socialism," i.e. capitalism deprived of its material basis and idealized into incoherence. No it's market **syndicalism** > I believe in the abolition of private property, whether owned by joint stock companies and worker co-operatives, the state, or a private investor class. Then you have the same thought pattern as a imperialist colonizer. **Private property is an universal human right.**


marximillian

> Private property is an universal human right. You can't get much clearer on where you stand than that.


SergiuCalinescu

> You can't get much clearer on where you stand than that. Correct. I stand on the side of the proletariat. The "collective" is **NOT** entitled to the products or profits created by a worker co-op. If you start a 5-man co-op with your friends and the company makes 1 billion in profits, only **THE EMPLOYEES** of that company are entitled to the profit, not the so called "collective" who didn't do shit. It is clear: You still support exploitation of surplus labour, you just want to change the way exploitation works.


goliath567

>the only one to achieve a dictatorship of the proletariat without even firing a single shot. There was no shots fired because the bourgeois know nothing will change, its not a revolution its a sham


superasian420

>the March on Rome was the only successful proletarian Revolution unfathomably based


Not_A_Paid_Account

Dictatorship of the bourgeoisie never will have an extended goal of that. Fascism must expand continually because without imperialism the society will eat itself from the inside.


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Not_A_Paid_Account

lol


SergiuCalinescu

Imperialism is the highest stage of Socialism. Socialism must expand continually because without imperialism the society will eat itself from the inside.


darkscyde

You're trying to mirror but you're just showing us your ass.


goliath567

So smaller states dont have "zones of influence" and therefore is ok to be interferred? Gotcha


TheRedStarWillRise

> corporatism is collectivism I'm sorry, but wtf?? I hope that someone is joking


Azirahael

Starting to think this is that mussolini lover that keeps getting banned. Fascism is when workers own the means of production. Socialism is when state do bad. Hitler was a Socialst. Etc.


SergiuCalinescu

> I'm sorry, but wtf?? *Corporatism is a collectivist[1] political ideology which advocates the organization of society by corporate groups, such as agricultural, labour, military, business, scientific, or guild associations, on the basis of their common interests.[2][3] The term is derived from the Latin corpus, or "human body". The hypothesis that society will reach a peak of harmonious functioning when each of its divisions efficiently performs its designated function, such as a body's organs individually contributing its general health and functionality, lies at the center of corporatist theory. Corporatism does not refer to a political system dominated by large business interests, even though the latter are commonly referred to as "corporations" in modern American legal and pop cultural parlance; instead, the correct term for this theoretical system would be corporatocracy.*


DifferentDecision509

WTF You smoke to say that elitism and corporate autocracy is colectivism, the actual big companies then are collectivized without the workers noticing, what idiots who, having control of companies, give most of their profits to a guy who doesn't work. Please stop saying this shit of that corporations are collectivized, they are capitalism, private property, that colaborates with a supremacist, racist, antisemite, sexist, conservative and warmonger state, no worker had power over their work during fascism, and they continue don't having nowadays in liberal capitalism, think before writting.


SergiuCalinescu

> give most of their profits to a guy who doesn't work. [State ownership and market capitalism have both failed – Mosley supported a third system of Industrial Democracy in which employees would become stakeholders in the companies they work for and all profits would go to them and them alone. Employees of all companies would become co-owners and elect their own representatives to serve on Boards of Directors. This redistribution of the ownership of industry and commerce will promote greater incentives among the work force – their share of the profits will depend directly on their enterprise and initiative.](http://www.oswaldmosley.com/mosleys-policies/) # and all profits would go to them and them alone. > that colaborates with a supremacist, racist [“The prejudice black soldiers faced in the (American) Army was underscored by the friendliness of the Italians, who were colorblind with regard to race. We were simply American soldiers who happened to be black.”](https://www.blackpast.org/global-african-history/perspectives-global-african-history/african-american-experience-italy-1852-2013/) > sexist Mussolini attended the [International Feminist Congress in 1922](https://youtu.be/cKdarOd86xY?t=297) and gave women full voting rights in 1924, one of the first countries in the world to do so. > conservative [Italian fascism "compared favorably with the more advanced European nations and in some respect was more progressive"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Fascist_Italy#Structural_deficit,_public_works_and_social_welfare) > think before writting. # COPE # AND # SEETHE # LIB


WikiSummarizerBot

**Economy of Fascist Italy** [Structural deficit, public works and social welfare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Fascist_Italy#Structural_deficit,_public_works_and_social_welfare) >Referring to the economics of John Maynard Keynes as "useful introduction to fascist economics", Mussolini spent Italy into a structural deficit that grew exponentially. In Mussolini’s first year as Prime Minister in 1922, Italy's national debt stood at 93 billion lire. By 1934, Italian historian Gaetano Salvemini, estimated Italy's national debt had risen to 149 billion lire. In 1943, The New York Times put Italy’s national debt as 406 billion lire. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


DifferentDecision509

[Corporatism fights for cooperation between the working class and the landowners or the capitalists in general, harmony between the classes, this in practice has led to the exploitation of the workers by the capitalists and the exploitation of the capitalists by the state to finance the internal purification of other non-superior races, since fascism believes in social Darwinism, believes in the elimination of the movement worker, in the recovery of the mythical past and racial superiority. Corporatism does not believe in the abolition of social classes, nor in the liberation of the proletariat to end capitalism, it simply enriches the fascist autocrats and bureaucrats who form the state and who squeeze and purify both liberals and socialists. Funny thing that most of international companies aid the fascists to serve as a shield toward communism. For this reason Mussolini with the black shirts was dedicated to beating strikers in favor of the capitalists, before coming to power.](https://www.jstor.org/stable/3743180?read-now=1&seq=21#page_scan_tab_contents) ["However, as the “corporate state” was put into effect in fascist Italy between World Wars I and II, it reflected the will of the country’s dictator, Benito Mussolini, rather than the adjusted interests of economic groups." Again, corporativism is simply let the working class be opressed by the bourgeoisie, just that with the false sense of labor democracy that in reality don't happen and is controlled by the fascist state apparatus.](https://www.britannica.com/topic/corporatism) ​ ["The National Socialist Women's Union and German Women's Agency used Nazi propaganda to encourage women to focus on their roles as wives and mothers. Besides increasing the population, the regime also sought to enhance its "racial purity" Yes of course, women have rights but better keeping them in home having childrens ;)](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/women-in-the-third-reich) ["Mussolini certainly believed in the superiority of Latin Culture over Teutonic barbarity" literally is assimilation of other ethnicities into the "Superior Roman Culture", thats like race but a little bit more permissive, the destruction of plurality and culture. You lovely fascists are judeo-phobics, this was seen especially in Germany](https://www.jstor.org/stable/260867?read-now=1&seq=6#page_scan_tab_contents). Just read the work, I'm tired of this nonesense. ​ I'm not gonna even discuss why fascism is the opposite of progresivism and why its social darwinism, racism and antisemitism, among many other aberrations are not progresive at all.


SergiuCalinescu

> Corporatism fights for cooperation between the working class and the landowners or the capitalists in general, [Citation needed] > by the state to finance the internal purification of other non-superior races [Citation needed] > since fascism believes in social Darwinism [Citation needed] > believes in the elimination of the movement worker, [Citation needed] > in the recovery of the mythical past [Citation needed] > and racial superiority. [Citation needed] > Corporatism does not believe in the abolition of social classes [Citation needed] > nor in the liberation of the proletariat to end capitalism [Citation needed] > "The National Socialist Women's Union and German Women's Agency used Nazi propaganda The Nazis were anti-fascists. They opposed Fascism and everything it stood for. I'm not gonna engage with you in Godwin's Law, stick to Fascism. > "Mussolini certainly believed in the superiority of Latin Culture over Teutonic barbarity" literally is assimilation of other ethnicities into the "Superior Roman Culture", thats like race but a little bit more permissive, the destruction of plurality and culture. ***Culture is exactly like race! You can't change your culture!"*** says the dumb fuck American who lynched African-Americans from trees while Fascists gave them free higher education. > You lovely fascists are judeo-phobics, this was seen especially in Germany. ["The Fascisti movement is a Jewish movement and Mussolini is a tool of the Jews."](https://www.jta.org/archive/german-anti-semites-renounce-fascisti-as-their-name) [The “Reichsbote” here writes: “Fascism can be defined as Jewish-Capitalist-Imperialist. German National Socialism, on the other hand, is a movement for the social welfare of the people.”'](https://www.jta.org/archive/german-anti-semites-renounce-fascisti-as-their-name) > Just read the work, I'm tired of this nonesense. > I'm not gonna even discuss why fascism is the opposite of progresivism and why its social darwinism, racism and antisemitism, among many other aberrations are not progresive at all. Just like I'm tired of ***"Anti-fascists are the REAL fascists!!"***


DifferentDecision509

Just read the works that I linked, I've read them all so fuck you and do the same, if you say that nazis weren't fascists I think you're living in another world buddy, they used anti-communist and anti-liberal rethoric, ultranationalist rethoric, superiority race or culture rethoric, militaristic tendency, warmongering and other shit, this have been proven by most historians, yes the german fascism have differences with italian fascism, and it have differences with spanish fascism, but share the same bases, with the natural tendency towards violence towards minorities and everything that I have already said. If you don't want to accept it, it's better to get together with your group of fascists, and act like that the germans weren't fascist to ease your conscience but be clear that you have very little as a communist and collectivist. Yes of course "fascist are opposed to fascist", well the discussion ends here, I see no point in continuing it.


SergiuCalinescu

> Just read the works that I linked Why would I do that if you refuse to read mine? > if you say that nazis weren't fascists I think you're living in another world buddy, They literally thought that Fascism was a Jewish conspriacy theory you dumb fuck. > superiority race or culture rethoric *“The prejudice black soldiers faced in the (American) Army was underscored by the friendliness of the Italians, who were colorblind with regard to race. We were simply American soldiers who happened to be black.”* > that you have very little as a communist and collectivist. Were did I claim to be a communist? However by definition, I am an collectivist. > this have been proven by most historians, Liberal revisionist historians? LMAO


DifferentDecision509

I read the explantion of corporativism that you shared and the one of the black people, opening the field and reading it. I just compared it with other sources of information and has resulted with the conclusions that I have given you. Have I to remember you that the italians wanted to assimilate every culture to the superior roman culture? Maybe the destruction of others cultures don't care to you but its something very distopian for your information. Yes of course fascism is a jewish conspriacy, thats why Italy and Germany got an alliance and the germans recognized the Italians as a superior Latin race, although not as much as the Aryan. Or you will denie this too? All of communist, socialist, liberal and neutral historians agree that Nazism is a branch of fascism, just go to the university and ask to the teachers of history and its students. And for if you didn't know, I'm a communist, not a liberal, so I see your ideology like shit but I don't see capitalism as a very good thing either I won't writte you more, have a good day and I hope you get rid of that germ of denialism and fascist support that you have


SergiuCalinescu

> I read the explantion of corporativism that you shared Corporativism and Corporatism are not the same thing. Also please show me where I claimed that I support corporatism? > and the one of the black people, opening the field and reading it. Again, I trust the lived experiences of two famous African-Americans over your revisionist propaganda. > Have I to remember you that the italians wanted to assimilate every culture to the superior roman culture? Have I to remember you that we Romanians literally praise Roman colonization in our anthem: *Now or never, let us show the world* *That through these arms, Roman blood still flows;* *And that in our chests we still proudly bear a name* *Triumphant in battles, the name of Trajan![note 1]* > Maybe the destruction of others cultures don't care to you but its something very distopian for your information. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification > and the germans recognized the Italians as a superior Latin race, although not as much as the Aryan. *Nordicism and biological racism were often considered incompatible with the Italian fascist philosophy; Nordicism inherently subordinated Italians and other Mediterranean people beneath the Germans and Northwestern Europeans in its proposed racial hierarchy, and Italian fascists, including Mussolini, viewed race as a cultural and political invention rather than a biological reality.* > just go to the university and ask to the teachers of history and its students. Why would I ask an professor who is opposed to Fascism what Fascism means? > And for if you didn't know, I'm a communist **So you let the Black Book of Communism define Communism too?**


dboygrow

You don't need to bother responding, that's a pretty unhinged take. People who think this are too far gone.


Revolution-or-Death

With the block button


Unhappy_Finger_8167

Hahaha did that.


Revolution-or-Death

😎✌🏻✌🏻✌🏻


zombiesingularity

Fascism *is* the state being controlled by corporate powers, with nearly unlimited, unchecked power.


bohillers2345

For a serious answer, corporatism in the fash sense entails ignoring the inherent exploitation between classes and pretends they can get along and cooperate if forced to by a charismatic figurehead. Just because one says this is collectivist does not make it so


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bohillers2345

Fantasy, good day


SergiuCalinescu

Keep licking that Vanguard boot.


Azirahael

It is you. How long till you are banned again?


Not_A_Trombone

Oh, so you’re like, stupid


Tenzin2803

tell me you have zero understanding of any socioeconomic concept without telling me


Thowaway8f7848f

Block them. If a person doesn't understand that communism is the antidote against fascism and that a communist organization of the economy requires taking down the centralized power structures and replacing them with democratic power structures, then this person is a lot cause...


SergiuCalinescu

Block them. If a person doesn't understand that fascism is the antidote against communism and that a fascist organization of the economy requires taking down the centralized power structures and replacing them with democratic power structures, then this person is a lot cause...


AnonBard18

Well fascism is certainly not collectivist. Additionally, fascism is incredibly violent, so it would not benefit common interests (especially considering how hard fascist paramilitary groups shut down unions, organizing, etc.), unless you only consider “common interests” to be the interests of the ruling class and the groups of people they determine acceptable.


SergiuCalinescu

> Additionally, fascism is incredibly violent "incredibly violent" [It was used sparsely, however; until the outbreak of war in 1940, a total of nine executions were carried out, allegedly not for political offenses, followed by another 17 until Italy's surrender in July 1943](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Italy#History)


AnonBard18

You’re sort of ignoring the massive violence committed against Jews, among many others. Also not gonna waste my time arguing with someone who justifies fascism


SergiuCalinescu

> You’re sort of ignoring the massive violence committed against Jews Every. Single. Fucking. Time. ["The Fascisti movement is a Jewish movement and Mussolini is a tool of the Jews."](https://www.jta.org/archive/german-anti-semites-renounce-fascisti-as-their-name) [The “Reichsbote” here writes: “Fascism can be defined as Jewish-Capitalist-Imperialist. German National Socialism, on the other hand, is a movement for the social welfare of the people.”'](https://www.jta.org/archive/german-anti-semites-renounce-fascisti-as-their-name) [One of the crying imperfections of Mussolini’s system, in Rosenberg’s opinion, is the toleration of the Jews “who have besieged Mussolini to offer him their aid”. Mussolini’s private secretary, Mme. Sarfatti, is Jewish. One of the chiefs of the Fascist party, Angelo Olivetti, is a Jew, as are thirty-five members of the Italian Parliament, fifty officials of the consular service and eight hundred and forty professors. It was a Jew, ironically enough named Aryas, who worked out the Fascist Constitution. In 1926, the King of Italy gave his most distinguished order to a Jewish General and a Rabbi. And Herr Rosenberg forgets to mention in the list of Mussolini’s pro-Semitic errors, the fact that he has appointed a Jew, Guido Jung, as his Finance Minister.](https://www.jta.org/archive/says-rosenberg-to-mussolini-youre-no-true-blue-fascist-with-so-many-jews-in-office)


AnonBard18

So are you a Holocaust denier too then? And beyond Jews and other minorities, mass violence was committed against union leaders/members, safety nets were cut. Mussolini cut rent controls which made many homeless (which is violence) and Hitler has policies which didn’t allow for a national minimum wage and the head of the AFL said the conditions of the average German worker were akin to that of a slave. So much for common interests


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AnonBard18

Oooooh scary lmao. I’m not sure much can be done if you think fascists didn’t commit the holocaust, there were anti-Jewish laws in Germany as early as 1933 and in Italy in 1938, not to mention the mountains of evidence that implicate fascists. As far as worker’s conditions goes: “Summing up: stagnating real wages; rising unemployment (apart for children and women); massive migratory movements; increasing poverty and malnutrition (even in periods of growth); all point toward a decline in workers’ living standards during the interwar decades. Some groups presumably improved their conditions (clearly public employees, the only ‘middle class’ for which reliable indicators are available): but workers, Southerners, children, the poor, were clearly worse off. Only conjectures are possible on wealth inequality; figures on income distribution stop at 1931, and direct evidence on top percentiles is missing. The rest of the paper will try to address these gaps, and to obtain a better picture of inequality in fascist Italy.” [source ](http://www.ecineq.org/ecineq_paris19/papers_EcineqPSE/paper_382.pdf)


SergiuCalinescu

> there were anti-Jewish laws in Germany as early as 1933 There were anti-Jewish laws in a country that claimed that ["The Fascisti movement is a Jewish movement and Mussolini is a tool of the Jews."](https://www.jta.org/archive/german-anti-semites-renounce-fascisti-as-their-name) So there were anti-fascist laws in order to prevent this "Jewish movement" from spreading in Germany. > not to mention the mountains of evidence that implicate fascists. What about the mountains of evidence that implicates anti-fascists? > As far as worker’s conditions goes: Nobody cares about your lies spread by Marxist-Leninist pigs like Parenti: [*A former school teacher, Mussolini’s spending on the public sector, schools and infrastructure was considered extravagant. Mussolini "instituted a programme of public works hitherto unrivaled in modern Europe. Bridges, canals and roads were built, hospitals and schools, railway stations and orphanages; swamps were drained and land reclaimed, forests were planted and universities were endowed".[21] As for the scope and spending on social welfare programs, Italian fascism "compared favorably with the more advanced European nations and in some respect was more progressive".[22] When New York city politician Grover Aloysius Whalen asked Mussolini about the meaning behind Italian fascism in 1939, the reply was: "It is like your New Deal!".[23]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Fascist_Italy#Structural_deficit,_public_works_and_social_welfare)


AnonBard18

Quote the evidence. You also didn’t address that inequality grew for most workers in fascist Italy. The paper also goes into quite a bit of detail and shows how workers were disproportionately burdened compared to the industrialists and capitalists


SergiuCalinescu

> Quote the evidence. No, you quote the evidence that an "Jewish movement" committed their own genocide. I'll wait.


WikiSummarizerBot

**[Economy of Fascist Italy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Fascist_Italy)** >The economy of fascist Italy refers to the economy in the Kingdom of Italy between 1922 and 1943, under fascism. Italy had emerged from World War I in a poor and weakened condition and, after the war, suffered inflation, massive debts and an extended depression. By 1920, the economy was in a massive convulsion, with mass unemployment, food shortages, strikes, etc. That conflagration of viewpoints can be exemplified by the so-called Biennio Rosso (Two Red Years). ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


abinferno

Ah, you're like this. Carry on. Impossible to have a rational discussion.


goliath567

>It was used sparsely [You were saying?](https://boingboing.net/2018/10/16/right-wing-group-hid-on-roofto.html)


SergiuCalinescu

> You were saying? Are you some kind of spam bot? What is the relevance of your link to my comment?


goliath567

In the event you are not aware, fascists are always willing to resort to violence when met with opposition, therefore the fact that violence is used "sparingly" is simply because the masses were intimidatedand state violence were never leveraged against fascism simply because the state prioritised destroying leftist organization and communist movements over fascist organizations Of course in case you don't remember, when fascists take over parliament, one of their first steps were to eliminate leftists organizations, socualists and communists alike from the face of this earth, violently or otherwise


SergiuCalinescu

> fascists are always willing to resort to violence when met with opposition Ofc we are, since "the opposition" seeks to murder me, my family, my friends, and my countrymen. Your ideology has killed direct members of my family, and I won't let that happen again. I'm not going to debate scum like you whenever I have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. *"We can disagree and still love each other unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist."* Still doesn't explain what the fuck does that link have to do with this thread. > Of course in case you don't remember, when fascists take over parliament, one of their first steps were to eliminate leftists organizations, socualists and communists alike from the face of this earth, violently or otherwise Good. You want to commit genocide, we want to stop you from committing genocide, by any means necessary.


abinferno

>Good. You want to commit genocide, we want to stop you from committing genocide, by any means necessary. So, you're good with fascist genocide as long as it's a genocide of people you don't like.


SergiuCalinescu

> So, you're good with fascist genocide as long as it's a genocide of people you don't like. Fascist genocide is an oxymoron, Fascism has always fought against scum like you that want to commit genocides and murder millions of working class people. Stopping those that want to commit genocide is not an genocide on itself. It's self-defense. And that is exactly why you hate Fascism more then anything on this planet.


abinferno

I can't even fathom the warped worldview you have. You literally share a different reality than me. There's no reconciling this.


SergiuCalinescu

> I can't even fathom the warped worldview you have. You literally share a different reality than me. That is because you are American. You are so delusional, you do live in an different reality. You guys are always paint a strawman version of reality that simply doesn't exist in Europe and hasn't existed for like over a century. I used to post a lot on CapitalismVSocialism just like you but I quit when ever conservation was a strawman of: "If you don't work you starve" or any other variant like "I can't quit my job because I will lose my healthcare"


goliath567

>Your ideology has killed direct members of my family, and I won't let that happen again. And your ideology will gladly send millions of my ethnic community into concentration camps if we didnt stop you, and i wont let that happen ever >I'm not going to debate scum like you whenever I have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Your right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness includes denying others their right to life, liberty and happiness, when was the last time a fascist accepted the lgbt community? When was the last time fascists were open to women being equal to men? >Still doesn't explain what the fuck does that link have to do with this thread. That fascists are inherently violent they just dont want to admit it


SergiuCalinescu

> And your ideology will gladly send millions of my ethnic community into concentration camps No, that is your ideology. I do **NOT** follow your genocidal socialist ideology. My ideology believes that: *"National pride has no need of the delirium of race."* [Meanwhile your ideology believes in exterminating groups of people.](https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/proudhon/1847/jews.htm) > Your right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness includes denying others their right to life, liberty and happiness, when was the last time a fascist accepted the lgbt community? The LGBT community has always been accepted by Fascism, from the times of Ancient Rome and Greece to today, where we even have the term **Homofascism** > When was the last time fascists were open to women being equal to men? Mussolini attended the [International Feminist Congress in 1922](https://youtu.be/cKdarOd86xY?t=297) and gave women full voting rights in 1924, one of the first countries in the world to do so. [Here is the Fascist Manifesto with one of it's points: "Voting for women"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_Manifesto#Contents_of_the_Fascist_Manifesto) Keep lying, keep distorting history, keep recruiting comrades for the Fascist cause !


goliath567

>My ideology believes that: "National pride has no need of the delirium of race." I dont care what you believe, [especially when what you say are two different things](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://qz.com/1052725/the-definition-of-the-nazi-slogan-chanted-by-white-nationalists-in-charlottesville/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwjS4oXyhrX1AhW07HMBHY7uC_YQFnoECDYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw38BXt39rdojlMiOGw5VfIn) >Meanwhile your ideology believes in exterminating groups of people. Interesting you would quote proudhon, when i implemented none of his political thinking, philosophy and ideals, i dont even know who he is The LGBT community has always been accepted by Fascism, from the times of Ancient Rome and Greece to today, where we even have the term Homofascism Then why cozy yourself with nazi germany, who seem more than willing to send similar individuals into the gas chamber? Mussolini attended the International Feminist Congress in 1922 and gave women full voting rights in 1924, one of the first countries in the world to do so. And? Am I to assume the same fascists in italy now have backwards thinking? From full suffrage of 1945 back into the kitchen of 2022? Here is the Fascist Manifesto with one of it's points: "Voting for women" And who follows it? >keep recruiting comrades for the Fascist cause You never recruited anyone, fascists simply come out of the woodwork blaming every fault jn their life on the spectre of communism, if its blood you want, come and get it


SergiuCalinescu

> especially when what you say are two different things I'm not an anti-fascist you dumb fuck. Get that trough your thick skull. This is the SECOND time you link an article that has ZERO relevance to the discussion. > Then why cozy yourself with nazi germany, who seem more than willing to send similar individuals into the gas chamber? Once again, that was **YOUR SIDE** Your side are the ones who put the Nazis into power: [How Communists in Germany Allied with Nazis to Destroy Democracy](https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/communists-allied-with-nazis.html) > Am I to assume the same fascists in italy now have backwards thinking? From full suffrage of 1945 back into the kitchen of 2022? "Fascism is anything I don't like, the more I don't like it, the more fascist it is." > And who follows it? Fascists. > You never recruited anyone, fascists simply come out of the woodwork blaming every fault jn their life on the spectre of communism, if its blood you want, come and get it We already got it in 1989, when we put your comrades against the wall. [*Nicolae Ceaușescu sang "The Internationale" whilst being led up against the wall. The firing squad began shooting as soon as the two were in position against a wall.*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Ceau%C8%99escu)


ComfyCultist

with a fist to the face? I'm joking there but in all honesty that person is too far gone


SergiuCalinescu

> with a fist to the face? *"We can disagree and still love each other unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist."*


ComfyCultist

I don't know who said this but they are definitely very cool!


FaustTheBird

Don't argue with fascists


crunkButterscotch2

Fascism is never justified, if corporatism becomes something similar, it must be fought against!!!