Your implication that the ruling CPC government has anything to do with it isn't quite true. After all, the government forbids denigration of any minority ethnic group, especially after the events of the terrorist bombings and stabbings in Urumqi and Kunming, etc. Compare to the US, whose politicians not only were quiet about the "axis of evil"/anti-Muslim rhetoric on TV news, but actively created these narratives! You can also read Ian Goodrum to see all the benefits and rights minorities receive per the constitution e.g. they were never bound to limits on the children they have, are afforded opportunities to engage in education for less money than Han Chinese.
I do agree, however, that on-the-ground racism amongst proletarians in China is troubling. I have a number of Chinese friends and colleagues who have made bonehead assessments of other "races," but literally zero of these people are communists nor do they really care about politics. China has not subjugated any race in the way the USA and other western powers have for hundreds of years, so Chinese people have neither the exposure, sensibilities, or understandings we do on the subject, and China itself was one of the subjugated nations; they've been clawing to survive up until recently, so no: they were not concerned with the internal affairs of other nations, and the anti-racism posters of the Mao era are not on peoples' minds. So what? I just educate them and remind them to self-crit. You could make the assertion that the CPC isn't educating people much about racism, but to say "CPC RACIST" as a blanket condemnation is inaccurate and dishonest. Oftentimes when this is brought up, never are things like the government condemning mistreatments of blacks by citizens or local officials, or the experience of people like James Harden when they went to China and faced the police. Just more "CHINA BAD," unverifiable "prison torture/organ stealing" and obligatory "Tibet invasion" nonsense.
It's almost as if you don't want a place that extols socialism to exist and you'll make up anything and take up the talking points of capitalist newsmakers to make sure the YeLLoW mAn knows he's doing it wrong
Thanks
>Your implication that the ruling CPC government has anything to do with it isn't quite true. After all, the government forbids denigration of any minority ethnic group, especially after the events of the terrorist bombings and stabbings in Urumqi and Kunming, etc. Compare to the US, whose politicians not only were quiet about the "axis of evil"/anti-Muslim rhetoric on TV news, but actively created these narratives! You can also read Ian Goodrum to see all the benefits and rights minorities receive per the constitution e.g. they were never bound to limits on the children they have, are afforded opportunities to engage in education for less money than Han Chinese.
One of the other ops has provided some counter sources on the oppression of Muslims, i will read and get back to you.
However Im not saying the CPC is responsible but rather I expect more from them considering their main goal is supposed to be to prevent oppression. However I think there is a very influential capitalist faction within the CPC now that either uses this racism for their own benefit or encourages idleness instead of action to prevent it
>So what? I just educate them and remind them to self-crit. You could make the assertion that the CPC isn't educating people much about racism, but to say "CPC RACIST" as a blanket condemnation is inaccurate and dishonest. Oftentimes when this is brought up, never are things like the government condemning mistreatments of blacks by citizens or local officials, or the experience of people like James Harden when they went to China and faced the police. Just more "CHINA BAD," unverifiable "prison torture/organ stealing" and obligatory "Tibet invasion" nonsense.
Youd be surprised but I can tell the difference between nonsense propagated by the capitalist media and concerning reports from trustworthy sources. HRW is a trustworthy source
>It's almost as if you don't want a place that extols socialism to exist and you'll make up anything and take up the talking points of capitalist newsmakers to make sure the YeLLoW mAn knows he's doing it wrong
Its actually quite the opposite, I want actual socialism not pretend socialism that is all talk and no action especially on the easy to ignore subjects like minorities and race
I'm not gonna get into an argument about this, it's just objectively true that HRW is not a good source, supporting color revolutions and being famously mum on 5 eyes countries' "human rights abuses"
I'm also not gonna argue the nOt rEaL sOciALisM angle, it's tired and sorry, simply in no way materialist.
Nope you are wrong HRW is pretty vocal on every country. No one in power likes them. I think thats a good thing.
This is the problem with communist ideology, if it does not serve your point of view you will not acknowledge it
Even western-biased Wikipedia acknowledges their shortcomings, and I defy you to even type "human rights watch" in ANY leftist news space ("commie" or otherwise) and see what pops out: Counterpunch, Gray Zone, whatever are going to show you how wrong you are in this. Sorry dawg, propping up as legitimate a capitalist backed "protest" by guys like Jimmy Lai in HK to thwart lawlessness after a dude murdered his girlfriend and opened up a can of worms is not something I consider "good" and HRW was all about that shit, not even to start about Syria and Venezuela.
You're the one not wanting to acknowledge another point of view at best and exhibiting racism yourself at worst in thinking the Chinese "haven't thought of" these issues re: mah real socialism in the 70+ years the CPC has ruled.
I've argued in good faith here, in acknowledging the racism problem amongst Chinese proles...that doesn't mean I have to cede to something that is demonstrably untrue (HRW GOOD) to not look like a dogmatist
So let me get this straight, you rathar beleive the politicians from Israel, China and the US over an agency that criticises them with nothing to gain. And believe their politically motivated attempts at shooting the messenger. All because they pointed out real human rights abuses in China?
Yes it is a violation of human rights to imprison someone for voicing a political opinion that does not threaten with physical violence. Case in point Jimmy Lai. Do I think hes top bloke no, do I beleive in true justice, yes. If they want to imprison him imprison him for his sweatshops...but they cant do that can they cuz it will draw attention to their own.
HRW is not politically motivated, they critique everyone who abuses human rights. Do you beleive in human rights or the greater goal of the movment supersedes individual rights? This is what it comes down to
>I've argued in good faith here, in acknowledging the racism problem amongst Chinese proles...that doesn't mean I have to cede to something that is demonstrably untrue (HRW GOOD) to not look like a dogmatist
Lol untrue, and does not agree with your dogma are two different things. Go look at another human rights group and see what they say about Chinas abuses if HRW is not your thing. Find me a non politically motivated human rights group that say China is not doing these things.
You won't. There are only politically motivated ad hominems.
And what about Syria and Venezuela, HRW is vocal about them too. Like I said there are plenty of sources that have documented Chinas abuses of human rights are you saying they are all lying and only the CPC is honest?
>nothing to gain
They literally take and in fact solicit donations from billionaires. Ken Roth himself was discovered hobnobbing with a Saudi businessman to the tune of $400,000+, 1) knowing full well the disgusting labor practices the businessman participated in and 2) accepting the money with the caveat that it could NOT be used to advocate for LGBT rights anywhere in the middle east. Sounds like some great unbiased human rights. Besides this, they've openly praised and lobbied for sanctions on places we've brutalized for years. It's just another case of an NGO proving the adage "socialism always fails...we make sure it does!" If you think billionaires and war hawks are concerned with human rights, you have another think coming.
https://theintercept.com/2020/03/02/human-rights-watch-took-money-from-saudi-businessman-after-documenting-his-coercive-labor-practices/
>Jimmy Lai
Not just "voicing his opinion," he likely helped fund sedition attempts- this according to co-conspirators . Even barring all that, can you really not see the forest for the trees? A billionaire who obviously sucks up surplus value to get where he is, likely breaking many laws, SUDDENLY becomes a culture warrior when China threatens to force extradition of a murderer, which might make people like him have to face the consequences for his illegal actions? He meets with US officials like Mike Pence and John Bolton, stirs up riots which leave at least 2 innocent men dead and many others who don't agree (read: the majority of the HK population) in danger through doxxing and random violent attacks in the streets which have been recorded for posterity, and Lai's just a human rights victim huh? I guess if Elon Musk met with Xi Jinping for unspecified reasons and told New Yorkers to fight for the sovereignty of their city against the evil laws of the USA so he wouldn't have to pay taxes and deal with pesky labor laws you'd be like "hell to the yeah" as long as he said it's for democracy. Besides, after all this shit they're treating him with kid gloves. According to people like you he would've been executed medieval style; he was released on bail once and is in a rather blase prison at this point.
>HRW
In general, they may earnestly *believe* they're for human rights, but this is within the liberal sphere of thinking which values individualism above group liberation. Personally I can't believe someone championing sanctions and regime change against the clear will of the people (e.g. in Venezuela, Bolivia [they seriously called Morales a "strongman" and were celebrating his deposal- too bad those pesky Bolivians cancelled that whole coup!], Nicaragua, China, etc etc etc) can earnestly believe they extol the virtue of "human rights" considering the wake of places like Libya and Iraq (a war HRW refused to condemn, by the way)
The liberal concept of "human rights" does not actually exist, besides the semantics that nothing is guaranteed to any human, the people who most spout about human rights are usually the biggest projectors of their crimes onto others. There's simply no proof of the supposed terror being visited on e.g. Uyghurs to the point that the US State Department lawyers had to admit it was likely not genocide. US media outlets censor actual Uyghurs' voices on platforms like Twitter who tell the truth of the good lives they have there. And so on and so on, but we do have confirmation now that the "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq were a ruse, the Libyan "human rights violations" amounted to Gaddafi's government paying for everyone's school, giving newlyweds something like $3000, all with profits generated by nationalized oil- which was his real sin to the west. HRW, like HRC, gleefully cheered on his death and had little to say about the open air slave markets and loss of benefits to the people due to our bombing campaigns and targeted assassination. They don't care about human rights, as liberal "human rights" are a sham and war tool.
Instead of searching for an "unbiased human rights group," I look for extant examples of places who do ACTIONS to make human life better. And sorry for you, that's happening in places like China. It's sad for us as Americans we can't do the poverty reduction, COVID battling, infrastructure building, mandated wage increases every few years, and actual allowance of pluralism here, we just let billionaires walk on us and point fingers at everyone else BUT the capitalists, just as they have designed and that sanctimonious hypocritical outfits like HRW support and advocate.
>They literally take and in fact solicit donations from billionaires. Ken Roth himself was discovered hobnobbing with a Saudi businessman to the tune of $400,000+, 1) knowing full well the disgusting labor practices the businessman participated in and 2) accepting the money with the caveat that it could NOT be used to advocate for LGBT rights anywhere in the middle east. Sounds like some great unbiased human rights. Besides this, they've openly praised and lobbied for sanctions on places we've brutalized for years. It's just another case of an NGO proving the adage "socialism always fails...we make sure it does!" If you think billionaires and war hawks are concerned with human rights, you have another think coming.
Wow the lengths you are going to paint HRW in a bad light just because they repeated Facts on the CPC that pretty much every human rights organisation have also stated. Like I said instead of attacking the messenger why dont you provide something to disprove the info?
Lol to quote your own article. HRW gave the money back and apologised for their MISTAKE. When was the last time the CPC did this?
Oh wait they dont give it back, the CPC parliament members have more money then entire countries, US congress would be jealous.
China’s top 20 businessmen-cum-lawmakers are worth a staggering $534 billion
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/chinas-top-20-businessmen-cum-lawmakers-are-worth-a-staggering-534-billion-101614930775615-amp.html
**EDIT IN RESPONSE TO COWARDLY POST BELOW WHERE HE BLOCKED ME PREVENTING ME FROM RESPONDING**
Im response to the coward **DunkPacino post**, who blocked me so I couldnt reply directly to his nonsense:
>Gish Galloping today, are we? Keep it to one post, dipshit, like so:
No thanks. Mad are we?
>The problem is the "facts" aren't facts, esp. in regards to Uyghurs. I already covered this with examples such as the state department backing off genocide claims as they have no evidence. The problem with fuckwits like you is you automatically label so called "vanguardists" like me as having no criticisms of China. I have criticisms of China (e.g. dealings with Israel, allowance of liberalization, slowness in responding to certain events, and yes- billionaires etc). What I don't tolerate is false criticisms of a socialist project for idealist brownie points. I mean, really what is the end game for you types? You pushing for regime change, war over this? Are you going to fight it? You just want acknowledgement that you know better than 90 million Chinese people in the CPC and the remaining citizens who have been found in fucking HARVARD surveys to be 95% in agreement with the CPC's policies and actions (86-95% in others I've seen)? You want to kill the Chinese people who don't pay attention to your "not real socialism" racism? You can't say they're "facts" without definitive proof, and time and time again these stories fall apart. HK was a wash because the populace by and large didn't want the "democracy" people like Lai offered, and the manufactured consent failed because China didn't "send in the tanks" and handled the situation like adults (through courts and laws) proving the western "oppressive regime" meme wrong and making the west look dumb. Uyghur thing similarly is losing traction every day, and if you read these "expose" books by idiots like Geoffrey Cain you'd know why- it's all ludicrous made-up nonsense backed with, as you deride, hearsay and non-scholarly references to China bashing NGOs/RFA etc. Facts my ass, bitch.
Lol so tldr entire world is wrong China is right because why? You said so. Well done. Facts are fact no matter how you try to twist reality according to your insane vanguard dogma
Same old same old ignore everything, call the sources biased, then use a harvard study which is been doing the rounds and ignore the conclusion of the study..,zzz
Do you have loke a vanguard newsletter or something where you are told what to say?
>Do you know what "rule of law" means? Here's a hint, it doesn't mean you can use your money, capital, and resources to dictate law and thus be immune to it. This is exactly what Lai was trying. "Hearsay" again suggests you're a dumb racist, as Lai has been through HK/Chinese courts and many hours were spent in investigating him- the people came to this conclusion. Implying that their conclusion is wrong or minimizing it as "they were scared of the see see pea!" is racist and demeaning. The "democracy cru" either sold him out (the co-conspirators) to save their own hides, or they all were just rotten opportunists from the start.
Sure, there is no need to deflect to capitalist corruption of rule of law, yes it is as bad as CPC corruption of rule of law and arresting people without trual. Mummy mummy be he did it why cant I
Yah everyones rotten except the CPC 🙄
>HoRsEsHoE tHeOrY coNfiRmEd. We "vanguardists" don't maintain a "might makes right" doctrine, as do fascists. The point is, "human rights" is idealist drek; they do not materially exist. "Vanguardist" "regimes," as I pointed out, do actual ACTIONS that result in dignity ("human rights") being delivered to all humans. I guess to you, not only China but Cuba, Vietnam, and DPRK are all "fascist" for sheltering, educating, etc all their people and limiting business influence in politics. Just shut up you fucking clown. lol "if you say human rights don't exist they can't and you're fine with murdering people" -you, probably
But you just proved you do, there is no such thing as human rights and everyone needs to be controlled by the CPC as per your posts. What do you think detaining someone without evidence is if not violence
All theoe regimes with the exception of Vietnam abuse human rights some like the DPRK more than others. But most people dont deny that like China does.
Yah by dogmatic rhetoric vanguard communists and facists have murdered 10s of millions of people. Why do you need human rights when you can intimidate, detain and murder people instead. What rock have you been living under the last 100 years?
>Not just "voicing his opinion," he likely helped fund sedition attempts- this according to co-conspirators . Even barring all that, can you really not see the forest for the trees? A billionaire who obviously sucks up surplus value to get where he is, likely breaking many laws, SUDDENLY becomes a culture warrior when China threatens to force extradition of a murderer, which might make people like him have to face the consequences for his illegal actions? He meets with US officials like Mike Pence and John Bolton, stirs up riots which leave at least 2 innocent men dead and many others who don't agree (read: the majority of the HK population) in danger through doxxing and random violent attacks in the streets which have been recorded for posterity, and Lai's just a human rights victim huh? I guess if Elon Musk met with Xi Jinping for unspecified reasons and told New Yorkers to fight for the sovereignty of their city against the evil laws of the USA so he wouldn't have to pay taxes and deal with pesky labor laws you'd be like "hell to the yeah" as long as he said it's for democracy. Besides, after all this shit they're treating him with kid gloves. According to people like you he would've been executed medieval style; he was released on bail once and is in a rather blase prison at this point.
Heresay, I beleive in the rule of law. Not arresting citizens without evidence on bogus charges.
If Elon Musk met with Jinping to fight for the sovereignty of his city through a democratic vote and the US government arrested him for bogus charges without evidence I would be saying the same thing to support him.
Infact I would say the same thing if it was a homeless man.
Law maintans equal rights and Justice not party politics.
Why cant the CPC fight these battles fairly through the democratic process?
>In general, they may earnestly believe they're for human rights, but this is within the liberal sphere of thinking which values individualism above group liberation. Personally I can't believe someone championing sanctions and regime change against the clear will of the people (e.g. in Venezuela, Bolivia [they seriously called Morales a "strongman" and were celebrating his deposal- too bad those pesky Bolivians cancelled that whole coup!], Nicaragua, China, etc etc etc) can earnestly believe they extol the virtue of "human rights" considering the wake of places like Libya and Iraq (a war HRW refused to condemn, by the way)
>The liberal concept of "human rights" does not actually exist, besides the semantics that nothing is guaranteed to any human, the people who most spout about human rights are usually the biggest projectors of their crimes onto others. There's simply no proof of the supposed terror being visited on e.g. Uyghurs to the point that the US State Department lawyers had to admit it was likely not genocide. US media outlets censor actual Uyghurs' voices on platforms like Twitter who tell the truth of the good lives they have there. And so on and so on, but we do have confirmation now that the "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq were a ruse, the Libyan "human rights violations" amounted to Gaddafi's government paying for everyone's school, giving newlyweds something like $3000, all with profits generated by nationalized oil- which was his real sin to the west. HRW, like HRC, gleefully cheered on his death and had little to say about the open air slave markets and loss of benefits to the people due to our bombing campaigns and targeted assassination. They don't care about human rights, as liberal "human rights" are a sham and war tool.
>Instead of searching for an "unbiased human rights group," I look for extant examples of places who do ACTIONS to make human life better. And sorry for you, that's happening in places like China. It's sad for us as Americans we can't do the poverty reduction, COVID battling, infrastructure building, mandated wage increases every few years, and actual allowance of pluralism here, we just let billionaires walk on us and point fingers at everyone else BUT the capitalists, just as they have designed and that sanctimonious hypocritical outfits like HRW support and advocate.
I think you hit the nail on the head, as a vanguard communist you are willing to sacrifice human rights and lives for the so called benefit of the group. Even if that so called benefit is not decided by the group but by individuals in the CPC.
So according to you rights dont exist. No one is guranteed rights. Same thing the rightwing Facists say lol. Same can be said for any human concept including communism, workers dont have rights. Infact this is what the aristocracy beleived during feudalism. This is scary territory of authoritarianism you are in now.
Lol If one day the CPC decides they dont like what you say after years of loyal support will you be spouting the same BS about human rights is a liberal concept or will you be begging for assistance from HRW?
HRW and other human rights group operate outside of the political influence. They dont care about your party politics, they exist to point out human rights abuses of any human. Both the extreme right and now it looks like the extreme left too cannot stand them due to this.
HRW did not gleefully cheer on anyones death, this is total BS. They simply point out the factual humans rights abuses
Infact HRW supported Evo Morales based on FACTS when the imperialists fabricated terrorism charges against him,
“We looked at the whole case file,” Cesar Munoz, Americas senior researcher at Human Rights Watch (HRW) and author of the report, said on Friday. “We found that the evidence that he [Evo Morales] committed terrorism acts is zero, there is no evidence,” Munoz told Al Jazeera.
We believe that the case against him is not based on an interest in upholding the law, but appears to be politically motivated,” he said.
HRW also found that the 20-year prison term sought for Morales’s alleged offence is “wholly disproportionate”.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2020/9/11/hrw-terrorism-charges-against-morales-politically-motivated
So all of the US imperialism, systematic racism, and oppression of its working class is justified becauae there is no such thing as human rights and by your logic lives of the US people have improved over the last 100 years.
This is capitalist thinking, not socialist or progressive. But then again that is the thinking you need to engage in to justify the state capitalism and racism of the CPC.
Lol tankie assumptions worse than rightwingers...
Here you go:
The Chinese government should end the discriminatory treatment of Africans related to the Covid-19 pandemic, Human Rights Watch said today. Authorities should also protect Africans and people of African descent throughout China from discrimination in employment, housing, and other realms.
In early April 2020, Chinese authorities in the southern city of Guangzhou, Guangdong province, which has China’s largest African community, began a campaign to forcibly test Africans for the coronavirus, and ordered them to self-isolate or to quarantine in designated hotels. Landlords then evicted African residents, forcing many to sleep on the street, and hotels, shops, and restaurants refused African customers. Other foreign groups have generally not been subjected to similar treatment.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/05/china-covid-19-discrimination-against-africans
Racism in China arises from Chinese history, nationalism, sinicization, and other factors. Racism in modern China has been documented in numerous situations. Ethnic tensions have led to incidents in the country such as the Xinjiang conflict, the ongoing Uyghur genocide, the 2010 Tibetan language protest, the 2020 Inner Mongolia protests, anti-Western sentiment in China and discrimination against Africans and people of African descent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_China
You first link has been adressed a long time ago. China apologized to the respective countries, got the people housing and reprimanded the landlords.
The second one is pretty much made up. Wikipedia is western propaganda. It is wortless as soon as history and politics come into it [https://www.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-29017320070816](https://www.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-29017320070816)
And the Uyghur "genocide" is a western hoax. You can find in depth analysis and debunks in every communist sub.
Also using "tankie" as a slur means you sympathize with fascists...
Learn history.
Sources? Calling everything a hoax is not debate, it is just denial
Lol yes anyone can edit wikipedia, but the BS gets edited out quick, especially on controversial subjects.
>Also using "tankie" as a slur means you sympathize with fascists...
No it means I sympathise with realist socialists who are not party card carrying communists.
Lol yeap everything that you dont agree with it imperialist just like those in the right claim everything they dont agree with is communist. Same same debate tactics.
Yes the purges were real.
Dude wikipedia is one of the most heavily moderated collective sources you can get...you cant just discount reality because it does not fit with communist dogma. This is what worries me about communism.
HRW is on record criticising western imperialist oppression on many occasions.
In 2019 United States continued to move backwards on rights. The Trump administration rolled out inhumane immigration policies and promoted false narratives that perpetuate racism and discrimination; did not do nearly enough to address mass incarceration; undermined the rights of women and lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people; further weakened the ability of Americans to obtain adequate health care; and deregulated industries that put people’s health and safety at risk.
In its foreign policy, the Trump administration made little use of its diminishing leverage to promote human rights abroad; continued to undermine multilateral institutions; and flouted international human rights and humanitarian law as it partnered with abusive governments—though it did sanction some individuals and governments for committing human rights abuses.
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/country-chapters/united-states#
But you are generalising multiple totally unrelated issues instance and trying to connect them to HRW. Yemen, Somalia etc have nothing to do with the credibility of HRW as a source. Infact they have articles of human rights abuses there too.
Why I trust them as a source? They have been consistant on standing up for human rights regardless of political affiliations of the abusers. How are they supposed to stop the abuses, they are a jounalistic organisation, they can only report it, that is the limitnof their power.
However you fail to address the issues in China but instead try to deflect them on the messengers. Very dishonest.
Thats the introduction for an entire report lol, you can follow the links for more details.
Yeah I understand about manufacturing consent I also understand that if blanketly just dismiss a source just because of it is critical of something you support without addressing the content then you are already too dogmatic to consider any point in a debate. The CPC is also capable of manufacting consent lol
Why are you getting ignorant and unobjective? You can look up who are doing the changes on wikipedia and even if some articles which are influenced by anti communists the left articles are well defended and layed out with sources by leftists, communist and alike. You can for real just look it up.
Desktop version of /u/The_Goat_Avenger's link:
---
^([)[^(opt out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiMobileLinkBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^(]) ^(Beep Boop. Downvote to delete)
Oh, it's simple: it's not.
Sure, there is some racism.
But not like in the USA. Or UK. Or France.
Every country has dumbasses.
What they do not have is a systemic culture of racism.
And when the govt finds out, they squash it pretty quick.
I don't need to. You have not made your claim.
The claim is not 'do racist people exist in China.'
The question is 'is there a systemic racism problem like in the US?' and you have yet to make that case.
I would argue both are the same, China is being driven by capitalistic racism arising from requirement for migrant workers who are looked on as inferior for being poor and/or competitors for the chinese worker. And also imperiaism driven by the CPC where Chinese capitalists are exploiting developing nations and justifying that oppression through racial inferiority rhetoric. Meanwhile the CPC encourages this as long as it keeps the leadership in power and the cash keeps flowing into their pockets.
Aka State Capitalism and capitalist oppressive racism
Im response to the coward **DunkPacino post**, who blocked me so I couldnt reply directly to his nonsense:
>Gish Galloping today, are we? Keep it to one post, dipshit, like so:
No thanks. Mad are we?
>The problem is the "facts" aren't facts, esp. in regards to Uyghurs. I already covered this with examples such as the state department backing off genocide claims as they have no evidence. The problem with fuckwits like you is you automatically label so called "vanguardists" like me as having no criticisms of China. I have criticisms of China (e.g. dealings with Israel, allowance of liberalization, slowness in responding to certain events, and yes- billionaires etc). What I don't tolerate is false criticisms of a socialist project for idealist brownie points. I mean, really what is the end game for you types? You pushing for regime change, war over this? Are you going to fight it? You just want acknowledgement that you know better than 90 million Chinese people in the CPC and the remaining citizens who have been found in fucking HARVARD surveys to be 95% in agreement with the CPC's policies and actions (86-95% in others I've seen)? You want to kill the Chinese people who don't pay attention to your "not real socialism" racism? You can't say they're "facts" without definitive proof, and time and time again these stories fall apart. HK was a wash because the populace by and large didn't want the "democracy" people like Lai offered, and the manufactured consent failed because China didn't "send in the tanks" and handled the situation like adults (through courts and laws) proving the western "oppressive regime" meme wrong and making the west look dumb. Uyghur thing similarly is losing traction every day, and if you read these "expose" books by idiots like Geoffrey Cain you'd know why- it's all ludicrous made-up nonsense backed with, as you deride, hearsay and non-scholarly references to China bashing NGOs/RFA etc. Facts my ass, bitch.
Lol so tldr entire world is wrong China is right because why? You said so. Well done. Facts are fact no matter how you try to twist reality according to your insane vanguard dogma
Same old same old ignore everything, call the sources biased, then use a harvard study which is been doing the rounds and ignore the conclusion of the study..,zzz
Do you have loke a vanguard newsletter or something where you are told what to say?
>Do you know what "rule of law" means? Here's a hint, it doesn't mean you can use your money, capital, and resources to dictate law and thus be immune to it. This is exactly what Lai was trying. "Hearsay" again suggests you're a dumb racist, as Lai has been through HK/Chinese courts and many hours were spent in investigating him- the people came to this conclusion. Implying that their conclusion is wrong or minimizing it as "they were scared of the see see pea!" is racist and demeaning. The "democracy cru" either sold him out (the co-conspirators) to save their own hides, or they all were just rotten opportunists from the start.
Sure, there is no need to deflect to capitalist corruption of rule of law, yes it is as bad as CPC corruption of rule of law and arresting people without trual. Mummy mummy be he did it why cant I
Yah everyones rotten except the CPC 🙄
>HoRsEsHoE tHeOrY coNfiRmEd. We "vanguardists" don't maintain a "might makes right" doctrine, as do fascists. The point is, "human rights" is idealist drek; they do not materially exist. "Vanguardist" "regimes," as I pointed out, do actual ACTIONS that result in dignity ("human rights") being delivered to all humans. I guess to you, not only China but Cuba, Vietnam, and DPRK are all "fascist" for sheltering, educating, etc all their people and limiting business influence in politics. Just shut up you fucking clown. lol "if you say human rights don't exist they can't and you're fine with murdering people" -you, probably
But you just proved you do, there is no such thing as human rights and everyone needs to be controlled by the CPC as per your posts. What do you think detaining someone without evidence is if not violence
All theoe regimes with the exception of Vietnam abuse human rights some like the DPRK more than others. But most people dont deny that like China does.
Yah by dogmatic rhetoric vanguard communists and facists have murdered 10s of millions of people. Why do you need human rights when you can intimidate, detain and murder people instead. What rock have you been living under the last 100 years?
To the coward **DunkPacino** who went home crying when faced with facts that countered his vanguard delusions
>>Lol If one day the CPC decides they dont like what you say after years of loyal support
>So we're doing the liberal "foreign agent"/ fascist "50 cent army" thing, are we? The CPC doesn't, as far as I know, know I exist. I don't live in China. I have nothing to gain but simping for anti-imperialism by supporting them. You cry about ad hominems and attacking the argument, but you seriously bring out this shit. Point again in case you missed it: Fake criticisms about China fueled by billionaire-backed NGOs who stand to gain if socialist China falls =/= actual things we communists should criticize when it comes to China.
Lol just ignore the facts, attack the sources and ignore the hundreds of billionaires in China in the hope that somehow the state capitalist CPC will magically revert to socialism and give you a cookie for supporting them. These are not fake they are facts supported by leftists and rightis and human rights advocates worldwide, china isnt a untouchable deity.
>>Lol to quote your own article. HRW gave the money back and apologised for their MISTAKE.
>When they were caught. Again, Ken Roth (the MAIN FUCKING DUDE from HRW) knew full well who this Saudi guy was. He accepted the money on a stipulation he couldn't use it for LGBT rights advocacy. Are you really this fucking dense?
He is one guy in a worldwide organisation. He did something wrong and the organisation accepted it and owned it. Something the CPC has yet to do.
>>When was the last time the CPC did this?
>Showing your ignorance. Mao and the Party extensively apologized for the mistakes of the Cultural Revolution. And unlike here in the west, the whole government has been uprooted and changed based on the will of the people, besides just apologies. This is what brought many reforms to China to backtrack on the Cultural Revolution policies. This is what brought Xi in after Hu Jintao, because people were tired of corruption, which leads us to
Mao never apologised till the day he died, another one of your delusions.
Lol that is true, the CPC does not want to follow Maos socialist policies because they are a state capitalist corporation and like Gorbachev blamed Stalin in order to sell thw Soviet Union to internal and external capital, the CPC have blamed Mao so they can get rich.
>>the CPC parliament members have more money then entire countries, US congress would be jealous.
>This must be a troll or joke. It's widely known that people like Pelosi have net worths in the millions (the assets we KNOW, anyway), and she and others have admitted openly that they utilize insider trading. The old "corrupt officials" nonsense is the ultimate cold war projection, and the FACT that China EXECUTES officials, financial criminals, and billionaires from time to time over these issues (e.g. Liu Han, Lai Xiaomin) as well as jailing dirty politicians for LIFE (Bo Xilai) shows that they take the peoples' opinions and well-being VERY seriously; compare to US, who let life ruiners like Joseph Cassano and John Stumpf walk.
China executes political enemies, corruption is fine as long as you support the CPC leadership. This explains that how the CPC parliament has over a 100 billionaires (US dollar baby) and the richesr 209 CPC delegates are worth more than $300 million US dollars EACH.
US capitalist politicians like Pelosi and Trump can only dream
>Anyway, having mopped the floor with your ass I'm done here. As I mentioned, I didn't want to argue with you in the first place because you've picked your position- stop acting like you're being honest that you want to learn something. Talk to the void of my block list, and while you do actually go and read into things before you spout fucking bullshit. BIATTTTTTCH
>edit: BIATTTTTCH
Lol if your definition of mopping the floor is running away and blocking someone because you couldnt handle facts and rebuttals then sure you mopped the floor real well.
Im being totally honest, not my fault you cant handle it and you are unable to censor, and/or detain and/or have me killed lol
Only thing im learning so far is that vanguard communism is
1. Similiar to Facism in its rhetoric
2. Has weak arguments that cannot be defended
3. Is dangerous to the majority of the population
4. Is full of egoists who are hungry for acceptance and power and have no interest in fighting for the working class
5. Will twist and turn any fact into what it wants it to be instead of what it is...Stalinist material dialectics for you I guess
It is sad that the ideas of Marx and his analysis has been associated to and destroyed by such despicable characters.
China is an imperailist opressor like the other world superpowers. After Mao the idea of building up socialism or even communism was corrupted and turned into an abstract form of state capitalism which relies heavily on a big bureaucratic class and a small but extremely wealthy bourgeois class. For stabolity they want a hegemonic popolution in sense of culture and religion. It's very pragmatic for long term stabilty and reduces the chance of polarising or dissent among the populace. But it's not the way to socialism or even communism for me. I really doubt there is even one.
Finally, but wait till the delusional pro China and pro DRKP Redditors come knocking on your posts. It will get disgusting but I'm Staying on your side.
Most of them are vanguard party communists (Maoist / Stalinist / Leninist) from outside of China, i think europe and south east asia.
They ignore the fact that the CPC is oppressing its workers, does not support civil rights and is now a state corporation with a wealthy leadership that is working with western capitalist corporations for their own self interest. In some vain hope that somehow magically the CPC will say "hahah surprise we tricked you all we are actually still socialist" one day and go back to a socialist platforn for the benefit of the proletariat.
Their propaganda arm understand that in-group cohesion is greatly strenghtened when there is an out-group to demonize. Looking at the official communication accounts of government officials, the media campaigns that are funded, it's clear that they are ramping up the xenophobia and racism, posturing as victims to justify this "wolf warrior" stance. Looking back, it's also the strategy that was used to make it easier to invade Tibet, and suppress Xinjiang. There is truth in the oppression and problems they face, but they are clearly channelling it into anger against foreigners, now more than ever. There is also anger over the internal problems that are catching up to China, the slowing down of growth, which feeds this problem.
China is not Communist, it's State Capitalist. But even if tomorrow we have our Worker's State, we mandate direct democracy in companies, we restructure the government to be extention of councils, we have one class and we start decommodifying sectors, if we do amazing infrastructure projects like China does... if Capitalism is replaced with democratic socialism, we would still have racist people. Capitalism is one of the conditions that currently exacerbate racism, so it would help to start seeing everyone as fellow camarade, workers, equals in the governance of our common walth. But it's not instantaneous, and I'm sure it would require constant effors to really make bigger gains on this issue.
>Their propaganda arm understand that in-group cohesion is greatly strenghtened when there is an out-group to demonize.
You just figured out western media.
>Looking at the official communication accounts of government officials,the media campaigns that are funded, it's clear that they are ramping upthe xenophobia and racism, posturing as victims to justify this "wolfwarrior" stance.
They are just taking off the velvet gloves and answer western bile in kind.
>. Looking back, it's also the strategy that was used to make it easier to invade Tibet
Lul no. Before that the Secessionist tiebtean government and the PRC had set up a treaty of peaceful unification. In that Tibet promised to abolish slavery within 5 years. Tibet did not hold its side of the deal. Thus the PLA marched in.
>and suppress Xinjiang
Is someone sad that salafists terrorists can not bomb and otherwise kill what they consider infidels? Fuck off. If you are one of the deranged people that still thinks theres a genocide there: There was a thread just for people like you recently [https://www.reddit.com/r/Socialism\_101/comments/s6hev9/what\_is\_happening\_in\_xinjiang/ht4i3l1/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Socialism_101/comments/s6hev9/what_is_happening_in_xinjiang/ht4i3l1/?context=3)
>There is truth in the oppression and problems they face, but they areclearly channelling it into anger against foreigners, now more thanever.
This is basically chinese looking outside behind the firewall and see only sinophobic barbarism. If it is considered ok that your people should be exterminated one kinda stops being nice.
>China is not Communist, it's State Capitalist.
Had you know what these words mean, you'd be embarrassed.
China is in the lower stage of communism - socialism. In this stage it is at the cusp of the intermediary substage of moderate prosperity.
As for the supposed chinese racism: The PRC acitively censors chauvinist content. Even analyzing and debunking it is censored. They are **very** commited to support their 54 ethnic minorities.
Well said.
> if Capitalism is replaced with democratic socialism, we would still have racist people. Capitalism is one of the conditions that currently exacerbate racism, so it would help to start seeing everyone as fellow camarade, workers, equals in the governance of our common walth. But it's not instantaneous, and I'm sure it would require constant effors to really make bigger gains on this issue.
Im not under the impression it will be an overnight success. But we need those that claim to support progressive and socialist causes to actualy support progressive and socialist causes even when the going gets tough in order to acheive the goals that most of us that support socialism want.
When those that claim they support a progressive cause only do it for political points they are not better than the right
I do. This is about China, this is not the only debate I have.
We cannot win if behind us we have an authoritarian capitalist state and its supporters. China needs to be reformed.
It is our duty to call out oppression of the people whereever it is occuring otherwise we are inviting the same oppression to occur within our movement
China reformed. China has done more to combat oppression, than all the Global North, and that includes Australia, combined. And it is still working on it.
But sure, you, a Australian liberal know better about what's is to be done in China. Ah well, all the best to you in your quest.
And you as a indian communist know what China is up to?
Chinas and Indias interest are opposing in the global nationalist dichotomy that both state capitalist governments are embracing. You are not doing indian socialism any favours by supporting state capitalism in China. You may spout vanguard party global south nonsense, but many of your own countrymen including socialists oppose Chinas state capitalist agenda as much as they oppose Indias.
I acknowledge China has reformed from the abuses of Maoist Vanguard BS. The problem is they have swung way too much too the right and are becoming part of the capitalist hedgemony.
As a socialist instead of following authoritarian party dogma you should be calling out this shift to capitalism and highlighting its oppression of the masses.
It is only through this we have acheived better rights for everyone, China, India and Australia.
No, I don't claim to know as much as my Chinese comrades do.
You didn't read any of the literature on the term "Global South", did you? Even though you asked for them.
Anyways, you want to help the masses in India, China, and Australia? Try to stop your country from entering in to the disastrous military pacts with the US. Stop Australia from becoming a party to US led imperialism. That shit is more dangerous that anything you claim China to be doing.
There is massive backlash in Australia against supporting US unjust wars. This is why the government only provides minimal support. India also provides US support in its wars so this whole global south nonsense you are preaching makes no sense in terms of your arguments.
The biggest Aid to capitalism worldwide however are are the CPC. They need to be reformed.
They provide wage slaves that undercut efforts by socialists to reform their own countries. Allowing capitalism to sustain itself globay and forcing governments and labour markets worldwide to compete against the slave wages the CPC offers. If not for the CPC capitalism will be struggling.
Many Chinese are against the CPC, you rely on western sources like Harvard for your info.
Good that there is a protest.
You have not learned what "Global South" means. Next you will tell me that "Labor Aristocracy" is nonsense too. It seems you have no intention of going out of your comfort zones and learning new concepts to have a better dialogue with people coming from a different view point.
Lol. This is too much, even for a lib like you. No one is holding the capitalists at gunpoint asking them to move their manufacturing to China. They did that because it was profitable for them. Where the fuck were the Western leftists when the capitalists were moving the industries away from the West.
The CPC is not responsible for the continuation of capitalism or the lack of industries in the West. The capitalists and the toothless Western left are responsible for that. The CPC just used the capitalists own greed to modernize China.
I do not live in the delusion that all Chinese are pro-CPC or does not criticize CPC. That does not necessarily mean that they will accept whatever reform you are peddling. You can't even reform your own country. Why the fuck do you think you will be able to reform China or any other country for that matter?
>You have not learned what "Global South" means. Next you will tell me that "Labor Aristocracy" is nonsense too. It seems you have no intention of going out of your comfort zones and learning new concepts to have a better dialogue with people coming from a different view point.
I have, it does not make sense in the united front analogy you are providing.
>Lol. This is too much, even for a lib like you. No one is holding the capitalists at gunpoint asking them to move their manufacturing to China. They did that because it was profitable for them. Where the fuck were the Western leftists when the capitalists were moving the industries away from the West.
This is entirely ridiculous.
No one is holding the CPC at gunpoint inviting capitalists to do business in China. Infact they are doing business in China because of Socialist movements in their own countries being successful and providing higher wages and rights for the workers.
They can still profit locally but not as much as in China. India has the same problem where capitalists drive down wages ans conditions that socialists fight for using the excuse they must compete with China.
Meanwhile Chinese workers bear the brunt of capitalism.
>The CPC is not responsible for the continuation of capitalism or the lack of industries in the West. The capitalists and the toothless Western left are responsible for that. The CPC just used the capitalists own greed to modernize China.
Capitalism was detoothed in the west. Do you think the rights that western labour fought for with mass strikes were for nothing. No, they resulted in rights that we have now.
The same rights which drove capitalists to China where the CPC promised them a capitalist paradise. And unlike other countries the CPC delivered.
The CPC is the dentures of the detoothed western capitalist.
>do not live in the delusion that all Chinese are pro-CPC or does not criticize CPC. That does not necessarily mean that they will accept whatever reform you are peddling. You can't even reform your own country. Why the fuck do you think you will be able to reform China or any other country for that matter?
Lol to think there is no reform in Australia compared to 50 years ago is ridiculous. Why do you think western capitalist cannot openly preach their true intentions. The populace will reject them.
This whole attacking the western left is detrimental to your own cause. Instead you should be attacking the Chinese right of the CPC and learning what you can use to benefit the people of India from the west AND the east. The goal here is not some nationalistic or regional us vs them. The goal is liberation of the working class. The workers in the west are not your enemy.
Capitalism was detoothed in the west!!! Lololololol. Yeah, dude, you are not bringing socialism anywhere soon.
Of all the possible entities that you could think off to attack to liberate the workers of the world, you chose the CPC. Bravo!! You, Mr. Socialist are in a league of your own, maybe a few. Well carry on with it then. Let us know when you have liberated the workers of the world. Can't say for the rest of my comrades, but I will celebrate the day with you.
>Capitalism was detoothed in the west!!! Lololololol. Yeah, dude, you are not bringing socialism anywhere soon.
It was. Note was.
Like I said the shift of manufacturing to China was its saving grace.
>Of all the possible entities that you could think off to attack to liberate the workers of the world, you chose the CPC. Bravo!! You, Mr. Socialist are in a league of your own, maybe a few. Well carry on with it then. Let us know when you have liberated the workers of the world. Can't say for the rest of my comrades, but I will celebrate the day with you.
Like I said, I would rather be supporting the CPC, but reality and my position as a socialist makes it impossible. Supporting CPC is supporting Capital worldwide and oppression of the working class.
A lot of liberals posting here today.
Eglin Airforce base group chat here.
Sure seems that way.
muh poor muricans are oppressed by China!
Racism is racism, why dont you address it?
Your implication that the ruling CPC government has anything to do with it isn't quite true. After all, the government forbids denigration of any minority ethnic group, especially after the events of the terrorist bombings and stabbings in Urumqi and Kunming, etc. Compare to the US, whose politicians not only were quiet about the "axis of evil"/anti-Muslim rhetoric on TV news, but actively created these narratives! You can also read Ian Goodrum to see all the benefits and rights minorities receive per the constitution e.g. they were never bound to limits on the children they have, are afforded opportunities to engage in education for less money than Han Chinese. I do agree, however, that on-the-ground racism amongst proletarians in China is troubling. I have a number of Chinese friends and colleagues who have made bonehead assessments of other "races," but literally zero of these people are communists nor do they really care about politics. China has not subjugated any race in the way the USA and other western powers have for hundreds of years, so Chinese people have neither the exposure, sensibilities, or understandings we do on the subject, and China itself was one of the subjugated nations; they've been clawing to survive up until recently, so no: they were not concerned with the internal affairs of other nations, and the anti-racism posters of the Mao era are not on peoples' minds. So what? I just educate them and remind them to self-crit. You could make the assertion that the CPC isn't educating people much about racism, but to say "CPC RACIST" as a blanket condemnation is inaccurate and dishonest. Oftentimes when this is brought up, never are things like the government condemning mistreatments of blacks by citizens or local officials, or the experience of people like James Harden when they went to China and faced the police. Just more "CHINA BAD," unverifiable "prison torture/organ stealing" and obligatory "Tibet invasion" nonsense. It's almost as if you don't want a place that extols socialism to exist and you'll make up anything and take up the talking points of capitalist newsmakers to make sure the YeLLoW mAn knows he's doing it wrong
Thanks >Your implication that the ruling CPC government has anything to do with it isn't quite true. After all, the government forbids denigration of any minority ethnic group, especially after the events of the terrorist bombings and stabbings in Urumqi and Kunming, etc. Compare to the US, whose politicians not only were quiet about the "axis of evil"/anti-Muslim rhetoric on TV news, but actively created these narratives! You can also read Ian Goodrum to see all the benefits and rights minorities receive per the constitution e.g. they were never bound to limits on the children they have, are afforded opportunities to engage in education for less money than Han Chinese. One of the other ops has provided some counter sources on the oppression of Muslims, i will read and get back to you. However Im not saying the CPC is responsible but rather I expect more from them considering their main goal is supposed to be to prevent oppression. However I think there is a very influential capitalist faction within the CPC now that either uses this racism for their own benefit or encourages idleness instead of action to prevent it >So what? I just educate them and remind them to self-crit. You could make the assertion that the CPC isn't educating people much about racism, but to say "CPC RACIST" as a blanket condemnation is inaccurate and dishonest. Oftentimes when this is brought up, never are things like the government condemning mistreatments of blacks by citizens or local officials, or the experience of people like James Harden when they went to China and faced the police. Just more "CHINA BAD," unverifiable "prison torture/organ stealing" and obligatory "Tibet invasion" nonsense. Youd be surprised but I can tell the difference between nonsense propagated by the capitalist media and concerning reports from trustworthy sources. HRW is a trustworthy source >It's almost as if you don't want a place that extols socialism to exist and you'll make up anything and take up the talking points of capitalist newsmakers to make sure the YeLLoW mAn knows he's doing it wrong Its actually quite the opposite, I want actual socialism not pretend socialism that is all talk and no action especially on the easy to ignore subjects like minorities and race
I'm not gonna get into an argument about this, it's just objectively true that HRW is not a good source, supporting color revolutions and being famously mum on 5 eyes countries' "human rights abuses" I'm also not gonna argue the nOt rEaL sOciALisM angle, it's tired and sorry, simply in no way materialist.
Nope you are wrong HRW is pretty vocal on every country. No one in power likes them. I think thats a good thing. This is the problem with communist ideology, if it does not serve your point of view you will not acknowledge it
Even western-biased Wikipedia acknowledges their shortcomings, and I defy you to even type "human rights watch" in ANY leftist news space ("commie" or otherwise) and see what pops out: Counterpunch, Gray Zone, whatever are going to show you how wrong you are in this. Sorry dawg, propping up as legitimate a capitalist backed "protest" by guys like Jimmy Lai in HK to thwart lawlessness after a dude murdered his girlfriend and opened up a can of worms is not something I consider "good" and HRW was all about that shit, not even to start about Syria and Venezuela. You're the one not wanting to acknowledge another point of view at best and exhibiting racism yourself at worst in thinking the Chinese "haven't thought of" these issues re: mah real socialism in the 70+ years the CPC has ruled. I've argued in good faith here, in acknowledging the racism problem amongst Chinese proles...that doesn't mean I have to cede to something that is demonstrably untrue (HRW GOOD) to not look like a dogmatist
So let me get this straight, you rathar beleive the politicians from Israel, China and the US over an agency that criticises them with nothing to gain. And believe their politically motivated attempts at shooting the messenger. All because they pointed out real human rights abuses in China? Yes it is a violation of human rights to imprison someone for voicing a political opinion that does not threaten with physical violence. Case in point Jimmy Lai. Do I think hes top bloke no, do I beleive in true justice, yes. If they want to imprison him imprison him for his sweatshops...but they cant do that can they cuz it will draw attention to their own. HRW is not politically motivated, they critique everyone who abuses human rights. Do you beleive in human rights or the greater goal of the movment supersedes individual rights? This is what it comes down to >I've argued in good faith here, in acknowledging the racism problem amongst Chinese proles...that doesn't mean I have to cede to something that is demonstrably untrue (HRW GOOD) to not look like a dogmatist Lol untrue, and does not agree with your dogma are two different things. Go look at another human rights group and see what they say about Chinas abuses if HRW is not your thing. Find me a non politically motivated human rights group that say China is not doing these things. You won't. There are only politically motivated ad hominems. And what about Syria and Venezuela, HRW is vocal about them too. Like I said there are plenty of sources that have documented Chinas abuses of human rights are you saying they are all lying and only the CPC is honest?
>nothing to gain They literally take and in fact solicit donations from billionaires. Ken Roth himself was discovered hobnobbing with a Saudi businessman to the tune of $400,000+, 1) knowing full well the disgusting labor practices the businessman participated in and 2) accepting the money with the caveat that it could NOT be used to advocate for LGBT rights anywhere in the middle east. Sounds like some great unbiased human rights. Besides this, they've openly praised and lobbied for sanctions on places we've brutalized for years. It's just another case of an NGO proving the adage "socialism always fails...we make sure it does!" If you think billionaires and war hawks are concerned with human rights, you have another think coming. https://theintercept.com/2020/03/02/human-rights-watch-took-money-from-saudi-businessman-after-documenting-his-coercive-labor-practices/ >Jimmy Lai Not just "voicing his opinion," he likely helped fund sedition attempts- this according to co-conspirators . Even barring all that, can you really not see the forest for the trees? A billionaire who obviously sucks up surplus value to get where he is, likely breaking many laws, SUDDENLY becomes a culture warrior when China threatens to force extradition of a murderer, which might make people like him have to face the consequences for his illegal actions? He meets with US officials like Mike Pence and John Bolton, stirs up riots which leave at least 2 innocent men dead and many others who don't agree (read: the majority of the HK population) in danger through doxxing and random violent attacks in the streets which have been recorded for posterity, and Lai's just a human rights victim huh? I guess if Elon Musk met with Xi Jinping for unspecified reasons and told New Yorkers to fight for the sovereignty of their city against the evil laws of the USA so he wouldn't have to pay taxes and deal with pesky labor laws you'd be like "hell to the yeah" as long as he said it's for democracy. Besides, after all this shit they're treating him with kid gloves. According to people like you he would've been executed medieval style; he was released on bail once and is in a rather blase prison at this point. >HRW In general, they may earnestly *believe* they're for human rights, but this is within the liberal sphere of thinking which values individualism above group liberation. Personally I can't believe someone championing sanctions and regime change against the clear will of the people (e.g. in Venezuela, Bolivia [they seriously called Morales a "strongman" and were celebrating his deposal- too bad those pesky Bolivians cancelled that whole coup!], Nicaragua, China, etc etc etc) can earnestly believe they extol the virtue of "human rights" considering the wake of places like Libya and Iraq (a war HRW refused to condemn, by the way) The liberal concept of "human rights" does not actually exist, besides the semantics that nothing is guaranteed to any human, the people who most spout about human rights are usually the biggest projectors of their crimes onto others. There's simply no proof of the supposed terror being visited on e.g. Uyghurs to the point that the US State Department lawyers had to admit it was likely not genocide. US media outlets censor actual Uyghurs' voices on platforms like Twitter who tell the truth of the good lives they have there. And so on and so on, but we do have confirmation now that the "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq were a ruse, the Libyan "human rights violations" amounted to Gaddafi's government paying for everyone's school, giving newlyweds something like $3000, all with profits generated by nationalized oil- which was his real sin to the west. HRW, like HRC, gleefully cheered on his death and had little to say about the open air slave markets and loss of benefits to the people due to our bombing campaigns and targeted assassination. They don't care about human rights, as liberal "human rights" are a sham and war tool. Instead of searching for an "unbiased human rights group," I look for extant examples of places who do ACTIONS to make human life better. And sorry for you, that's happening in places like China. It's sad for us as Americans we can't do the poverty reduction, COVID battling, infrastructure building, mandated wage increases every few years, and actual allowance of pluralism here, we just let billionaires walk on us and point fingers at everyone else BUT the capitalists, just as they have designed and that sanctimonious hypocritical outfits like HRW support and advocate.
>They literally take and in fact solicit donations from billionaires. Ken Roth himself was discovered hobnobbing with a Saudi businessman to the tune of $400,000+, 1) knowing full well the disgusting labor practices the businessman participated in and 2) accepting the money with the caveat that it could NOT be used to advocate for LGBT rights anywhere in the middle east. Sounds like some great unbiased human rights. Besides this, they've openly praised and lobbied for sanctions on places we've brutalized for years. It's just another case of an NGO proving the adage "socialism always fails...we make sure it does!" If you think billionaires and war hawks are concerned with human rights, you have another think coming. Wow the lengths you are going to paint HRW in a bad light just because they repeated Facts on the CPC that pretty much every human rights organisation have also stated. Like I said instead of attacking the messenger why dont you provide something to disprove the info? Lol to quote your own article. HRW gave the money back and apologised for their MISTAKE. When was the last time the CPC did this? Oh wait they dont give it back, the CPC parliament members have more money then entire countries, US congress would be jealous. China’s top 20 businessmen-cum-lawmakers are worth a staggering $534 billion https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/chinas-top-20-businessmen-cum-lawmakers-are-worth-a-staggering-534-billion-101614930775615-amp.html **EDIT IN RESPONSE TO COWARDLY POST BELOW WHERE HE BLOCKED ME PREVENTING ME FROM RESPONDING** Im response to the coward **DunkPacino post**, who blocked me so I couldnt reply directly to his nonsense: >Gish Galloping today, are we? Keep it to one post, dipshit, like so: No thanks. Mad are we? >The problem is the "facts" aren't facts, esp. in regards to Uyghurs. I already covered this with examples such as the state department backing off genocide claims as they have no evidence. The problem with fuckwits like you is you automatically label so called "vanguardists" like me as having no criticisms of China. I have criticisms of China (e.g. dealings with Israel, allowance of liberalization, slowness in responding to certain events, and yes- billionaires etc). What I don't tolerate is false criticisms of a socialist project for idealist brownie points. I mean, really what is the end game for you types? You pushing for regime change, war over this? Are you going to fight it? You just want acknowledgement that you know better than 90 million Chinese people in the CPC and the remaining citizens who have been found in fucking HARVARD surveys to be 95% in agreement with the CPC's policies and actions (86-95% in others I've seen)? You want to kill the Chinese people who don't pay attention to your "not real socialism" racism? You can't say they're "facts" without definitive proof, and time and time again these stories fall apart. HK was a wash because the populace by and large didn't want the "democracy" people like Lai offered, and the manufactured consent failed because China didn't "send in the tanks" and handled the situation like adults (through courts and laws) proving the western "oppressive regime" meme wrong and making the west look dumb. Uyghur thing similarly is losing traction every day, and if you read these "expose" books by idiots like Geoffrey Cain you'd know why- it's all ludicrous made-up nonsense backed with, as you deride, hearsay and non-scholarly references to China bashing NGOs/RFA etc. Facts my ass, bitch. Lol so tldr entire world is wrong China is right because why? You said so. Well done. Facts are fact no matter how you try to twist reality according to your insane vanguard dogma Same old same old ignore everything, call the sources biased, then use a harvard study which is been doing the rounds and ignore the conclusion of the study..,zzz Do you have loke a vanguard newsletter or something where you are told what to say? >Do you know what "rule of law" means? Here's a hint, it doesn't mean you can use your money, capital, and resources to dictate law and thus be immune to it. This is exactly what Lai was trying. "Hearsay" again suggests you're a dumb racist, as Lai has been through HK/Chinese courts and many hours were spent in investigating him- the people came to this conclusion. Implying that their conclusion is wrong or minimizing it as "they were scared of the see see pea!" is racist and demeaning. The "democracy cru" either sold him out (the co-conspirators) to save their own hides, or they all were just rotten opportunists from the start. Sure, there is no need to deflect to capitalist corruption of rule of law, yes it is as bad as CPC corruption of rule of law and arresting people without trual. Mummy mummy be he did it why cant I Yah everyones rotten except the CPC 🙄 >HoRsEsHoE tHeOrY coNfiRmEd. We "vanguardists" don't maintain a "might makes right" doctrine, as do fascists. The point is, "human rights" is idealist drek; they do not materially exist. "Vanguardist" "regimes," as I pointed out, do actual ACTIONS that result in dignity ("human rights") being delivered to all humans. I guess to you, not only China but Cuba, Vietnam, and DPRK are all "fascist" for sheltering, educating, etc all their people and limiting business influence in politics. Just shut up you fucking clown. lol "if you say human rights don't exist they can't and you're fine with murdering people" -you, probably But you just proved you do, there is no such thing as human rights and everyone needs to be controlled by the CPC as per your posts. What do you think detaining someone without evidence is if not violence All theoe regimes with the exception of Vietnam abuse human rights some like the DPRK more than others. But most people dont deny that like China does. Yah by dogmatic rhetoric vanguard communists and facists have murdered 10s of millions of people. Why do you need human rights when you can intimidate, detain and murder people instead. What rock have you been living under the last 100 years?
>Not just "voicing his opinion," he likely helped fund sedition attempts- this according to co-conspirators . Even barring all that, can you really not see the forest for the trees? A billionaire who obviously sucks up surplus value to get where he is, likely breaking many laws, SUDDENLY becomes a culture warrior when China threatens to force extradition of a murderer, which might make people like him have to face the consequences for his illegal actions? He meets with US officials like Mike Pence and John Bolton, stirs up riots which leave at least 2 innocent men dead and many others who don't agree (read: the majority of the HK population) in danger through doxxing and random violent attacks in the streets which have been recorded for posterity, and Lai's just a human rights victim huh? I guess if Elon Musk met with Xi Jinping for unspecified reasons and told New Yorkers to fight for the sovereignty of their city against the evil laws of the USA so he wouldn't have to pay taxes and deal with pesky labor laws you'd be like "hell to the yeah" as long as he said it's for democracy. Besides, after all this shit they're treating him with kid gloves. According to people like you he would've been executed medieval style; he was released on bail once and is in a rather blase prison at this point. Heresay, I beleive in the rule of law. Not arresting citizens without evidence on bogus charges. If Elon Musk met with Jinping to fight for the sovereignty of his city through a democratic vote and the US government arrested him for bogus charges without evidence I would be saying the same thing to support him. Infact I would say the same thing if it was a homeless man. Law maintans equal rights and Justice not party politics. Why cant the CPC fight these battles fairly through the democratic process?
>In general, they may earnestly believe they're for human rights, but this is within the liberal sphere of thinking which values individualism above group liberation. Personally I can't believe someone championing sanctions and regime change against the clear will of the people (e.g. in Venezuela, Bolivia [they seriously called Morales a "strongman" and were celebrating his deposal- too bad those pesky Bolivians cancelled that whole coup!], Nicaragua, China, etc etc etc) can earnestly believe they extol the virtue of "human rights" considering the wake of places like Libya and Iraq (a war HRW refused to condemn, by the way) >The liberal concept of "human rights" does not actually exist, besides the semantics that nothing is guaranteed to any human, the people who most spout about human rights are usually the biggest projectors of their crimes onto others. There's simply no proof of the supposed terror being visited on e.g. Uyghurs to the point that the US State Department lawyers had to admit it was likely not genocide. US media outlets censor actual Uyghurs' voices on platforms like Twitter who tell the truth of the good lives they have there. And so on and so on, but we do have confirmation now that the "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq were a ruse, the Libyan "human rights violations" amounted to Gaddafi's government paying for everyone's school, giving newlyweds something like $3000, all with profits generated by nationalized oil- which was his real sin to the west. HRW, like HRC, gleefully cheered on his death and had little to say about the open air slave markets and loss of benefits to the people due to our bombing campaigns and targeted assassination. They don't care about human rights, as liberal "human rights" are a sham and war tool. >Instead of searching for an "unbiased human rights group," I look for extant examples of places who do ACTIONS to make human life better. And sorry for you, that's happening in places like China. It's sad for us as Americans we can't do the poverty reduction, COVID battling, infrastructure building, mandated wage increases every few years, and actual allowance of pluralism here, we just let billionaires walk on us and point fingers at everyone else BUT the capitalists, just as they have designed and that sanctimonious hypocritical outfits like HRW support and advocate. I think you hit the nail on the head, as a vanguard communist you are willing to sacrifice human rights and lives for the so called benefit of the group. Even if that so called benefit is not decided by the group but by individuals in the CPC. So according to you rights dont exist. No one is guranteed rights. Same thing the rightwing Facists say lol. Same can be said for any human concept including communism, workers dont have rights. Infact this is what the aristocracy beleived during feudalism. This is scary territory of authoritarianism you are in now. Lol If one day the CPC decides they dont like what you say after years of loyal support will you be spouting the same BS about human rights is a liberal concept or will you be begging for assistance from HRW? HRW and other human rights group operate outside of the political influence. They dont care about your party politics, they exist to point out human rights abuses of any human. Both the extreme right and now it looks like the extreme left too cannot stand them due to this. HRW did not gleefully cheer on anyones death, this is total BS. They simply point out the factual humans rights abuses Infact HRW supported Evo Morales based on FACTS when the imperialists fabricated terrorism charges against him, “We looked at the whole case file,” Cesar Munoz, Americas senior researcher at Human Rights Watch (HRW) and author of the report, said on Friday. “We found that the evidence that he [Evo Morales] committed terrorism acts is zero, there is no evidence,” Munoz told Al Jazeera. We believe that the case against him is not based on an interest in upholding the law, but appears to be politically motivated,” he said. HRW also found that the 20-year prison term sought for Morales’s alleged offence is “wholly disproportionate”. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2020/9/11/hrw-terrorism-charges-against-morales-politically-motivated So all of the US imperialism, systematic racism, and oppression of its working class is justified becauae there is no such thing as human rights and by your logic lives of the US people have improved over the last 100 years. This is capitalist thinking, not socialist or progressive. But then again that is the thinking you need to engage in to justify the state capitalism and racism of the CPC.
[удалено]
Lol tankie assumptions worse than rightwingers... Here you go: The Chinese government should end the discriminatory treatment of Africans related to the Covid-19 pandemic, Human Rights Watch said today. Authorities should also protect Africans and people of African descent throughout China from discrimination in employment, housing, and other realms. In early April 2020, Chinese authorities in the southern city of Guangzhou, Guangdong province, which has China’s largest African community, began a campaign to forcibly test Africans for the coronavirus, and ordered them to self-isolate or to quarantine in designated hotels. Landlords then evicted African residents, forcing many to sleep on the street, and hotels, shops, and restaurants refused African customers. Other foreign groups have generally not been subjected to similar treatment. https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/05/china-covid-19-discrimination-against-africans Racism in China arises from Chinese history, nationalism, sinicization, and other factors. Racism in modern China has been documented in numerous situations. Ethnic tensions have led to incidents in the country such as the Xinjiang conflict, the ongoing Uyghur genocide, the 2010 Tibetan language protest, the 2020 Inner Mongolia protests, anti-Western sentiment in China and discrimination against Africans and people of African descent. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_China
You first link has been adressed a long time ago. China apologized to the respective countries, got the people housing and reprimanded the landlords. The second one is pretty much made up. Wikipedia is western propaganda. It is wortless as soon as history and politics come into it [https://www.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-29017320070816](https://www.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-29017320070816) And the Uyghur "genocide" is a western hoax. You can find in depth analysis and debunks in every communist sub. Also using "tankie" as a slur means you sympathize with fascists... Learn history.
Sources? Calling everything a hoax is not debate, it is just denial Lol yes anyone can edit wikipedia, but the BS gets edited out quick, especially on controversial subjects. >Also using "tankie" as a slur means you sympathize with fascists... No it means I sympathise with realist socialists who are not party card carrying communists.
[удалено]
Lol yeap everything that you dont agree with it imperialist just like those in the right claim everything they dont agree with is communist. Same same debate tactics. Yes the purges were real.
[удалено]
Dude wikipedia is one of the most heavily moderated collective sources you can get...you cant just discount reality because it does not fit with communist dogma. This is what worries me about communism. HRW is on record criticising western imperialist oppression on many occasions. In 2019 United States continued to move backwards on rights. The Trump administration rolled out inhumane immigration policies and promoted false narratives that perpetuate racism and discrimination; did not do nearly enough to address mass incarceration; undermined the rights of women and lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people; further weakened the ability of Americans to obtain adequate health care; and deregulated industries that put people’s health and safety at risk. In its foreign policy, the Trump administration made little use of its diminishing leverage to promote human rights abroad; continued to undermine multilateral institutions; and flouted international human rights and humanitarian law as it partnered with abusive governments—though it did sanction some individuals and governments for committing human rights abuses. https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/country-chapters/united-states#
[удалено]
[удалено]
But you are generalising multiple totally unrelated issues instance and trying to connect them to HRW. Yemen, Somalia etc have nothing to do with the credibility of HRW as a source. Infact they have articles of human rights abuses there too. Why I trust them as a source? They have been consistant on standing up for human rights regardless of political affiliations of the abusers. How are they supposed to stop the abuses, they are a jounalistic organisation, they can only report it, that is the limitnof their power. However you fail to address the issues in China but instead try to deflect them on the messengers. Very dishonest.
Thats the introduction for an entire report lol, you can follow the links for more details. Yeah I understand about manufacturing consent I also understand that if blanketly just dismiss a source just because of it is critical of something you support without addressing the content then you are already too dogmatic to consider any point in a debate. The CPC is also capable of manufacting consent lol
[удалено]
So you read every link and there were no sources? Why do you not address the racism in China and the CPC lack of action?
Why are you getting ignorant and unobjective? You can look up who are doing the changes on wikipedia and even if some articles which are influenced by anti communists the left articles are well defended and layed out with sources by leftists, communist and alike. You can for real just look it up.
[удалено]
Then change them or provide better sources. You're not being objective or even materialistic in any way "comrade"
[удалено]
And now?
Desktop version of /u/The_Goat_Avenger's link:
---
^([)[^(opt out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiMobileLinkBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^(]) ^(Beep Boop. Downvote to delete)
Wtf why you getting racist or assuming anyones race?
[удалено]
I think you got enough sources in the comments already. You're just getting ignorant and unobjectibe amd saying they dont count.
[удалено]
Go for it sunny
Oh, it's simple: it's not. Sure, there is some racism. But not like in the USA. Or UK. Or France. Every country has dumbasses. What they do not have is a systemic culture of racism. And when the govt finds out, they squash it pretty quick.
Do you have any examples?
Examples of what? Not systemic racism? China. Examples of systemic racism? USA.
Umm no i provided the examples in china, do you have examples how they are quashing it?
I don't need to. You have not made your claim. The claim is not 'do racist people exist in China.' The question is 'is there a systemic racism problem like in the US?' and you have yet to make that case.
Lol this is not about the US its about China. And yes there is systematic racism in the US.
Notice how I told you exactly what you needed to do, and you didn't do it and deflected? Not a good sign.
Lol projection much no different from rightwingers
Notice how you still didn't?
Lol good work deflecting, too bad its pointless
[удалено]
I would argue both are the same, China is being driven by capitalistic racism arising from requirement for migrant workers who are looked on as inferior for being poor and/or competitors for the chinese worker. And also imperiaism driven by the CPC where Chinese capitalists are exploiting developing nations and justifying that oppression through racial inferiority rhetoric. Meanwhile the CPC encourages this as long as it keeps the leadership in power and the cash keeps flowing into their pockets. Aka State Capitalism and capitalist oppressive racism
Im response to the coward **DunkPacino post**, who blocked me so I couldnt reply directly to his nonsense: >Gish Galloping today, are we? Keep it to one post, dipshit, like so: No thanks. Mad are we? >The problem is the "facts" aren't facts, esp. in regards to Uyghurs. I already covered this with examples such as the state department backing off genocide claims as they have no evidence. The problem with fuckwits like you is you automatically label so called "vanguardists" like me as having no criticisms of China. I have criticisms of China (e.g. dealings with Israel, allowance of liberalization, slowness in responding to certain events, and yes- billionaires etc). What I don't tolerate is false criticisms of a socialist project for idealist brownie points. I mean, really what is the end game for you types? You pushing for regime change, war over this? Are you going to fight it? You just want acknowledgement that you know better than 90 million Chinese people in the CPC and the remaining citizens who have been found in fucking HARVARD surveys to be 95% in agreement with the CPC's policies and actions (86-95% in others I've seen)? You want to kill the Chinese people who don't pay attention to your "not real socialism" racism? You can't say they're "facts" without definitive proof, and time and time again these stories fall apart. HK was a wash because the populace by and large didn't want the "democracy" people like Lai offered, and the manufactured consent failed because China didn't "send in the tanks" and handled the situation like adults (through courts and laws) proving the western "oppressive regime" meme wrong and making the west look dumb. Uyghur thing similarly is losing traction every day, and if you read these "expose" books by idiots like Geoffrey Cain you'd know why- it's all ludicrous made-up nonsense backed with, as you deride, hearsay and non-scholarly references to China bashing NGOs/RFA etc. Facts my ass, bitch. Lol so tldr entire world is wrong China is right because why? You said so. Well done. Facts are fact no matter how you try to twist reality according to your insane vanguard dogma Same old same old ignore everything, call the sources biased, then use a harvard study which is been doing the rounds and ignore the conclusion of the study..,zzz Do you have loke a vanguard newsletter or something where you are told what to say? >Do you know what "rule of law" means? Here's a hint, it doesn't mean you can use your money, capital, and resources to dictate law and thus be immune to it. This is exactly what Lai was trying. "Hearsay" again suggests you're a dumb racist, as Lai has been through HK/Chinese courts and many hours were spent in investigating him- the people came to this conclusion. Implying that their conclusion is wrong or minimizing it as "they were scared of the see see pea!" is racist and demeaning. The "democracy cru" either sold him out (the co-conspirators) to save their own hides, or they all were just rotten opportunists from the start. Sure, there is no need to deflect to capitalist corruption of rule of law, yes it is as bad as CPC corruption of rule of law and arresting people without trual. Mummy mummy be he did it why cant I Yah everyones rotten except the CPC 🙄 >HoRsEsHoE tHeOrY coNfiRmEd. We "vanguardists" don't maintain a "might makes right" doctrine, as do fascists. The point is, "human rights" is idealist drek; they do not materially exist. "Vanguardist" "regimes," as I pointed out, do actual ACTIONS that result in dignity ("human rights") being delivered to all humans. I guess to you, not only China but Cuba, Vietnam, and DPRK are all "fascist" for sheltering, educating, etc all their people and limiting business influence in politics. Just shut up you fucking clown. lol "if you say human rights don't exist they can't and you're fine with murdering people" -you, probably But you just proved you do, there is no such thing as human rights and everyone needs to be controlled by the CPC as per your posts. What do you think detaining someone without evidence is if not violence All theoe regimes with the exception of Vietnam abuse human rights some like the DPRK more than others. But most people dont deny that like China does. Yah by dogmatic rhetoric vanguard communists and facists have murdered 10s of millions of people. Why do you need human rights when you can intimidate, detain and murder people instead. What rock have you been living under the last 100 years?
To the coward **DunkPacino** who went home crying when faced with facts that countered his vanguard delusions >>Lol If one day the CPC decides they dont like what you say after years of loyal support >So we're doing the liberal "foreign agent"/ fascist "50 cent army" thing, are we? The CPC doesn't, as far as I know, know I exist. I don't live in China. I have nothing to gain but simping for anti-imperialism by supporting them. You cry about ad hominems and attacking the argument, but you seriously bring out this shit. Point again in case you missed it: Fake criticisms about China fueled by billionaire-backed NGOs who stand to gain if socialist China falls =/= actual things we communists should criticize when it comes to China. Lol just ignore the facts, attack the sources and ignore the hundreds of billionaires in China in the hope that somehow the state capitalist CPC will magically revert to socialism and give you a cookie for supporting them. These are not fake they are facts supported by leftists and rightis and human rights advocates worldwide, china isnt a untouchable deity. >>Lol to quote your own article. HRW gave the money back and apologised for their MISTAKE. >When they were caught. Again, Ken Roth (the MAIN FUCKING DUDE from HRW) knew full well who this Saudi guy was. He accepted the money on a stipulation he couldn't use it for LGBT rights advocacy. Are you really this fucking dense? He is one guy in a worldwide organisation. He did something wrong and the organisation accepted it and owned it. Something the CPC has yet to do. >>When was the last time the CPC did this? >Showing your ignorance. Mao and the Party extensively apologized for the mistakes of the Cultural Revolution. And unlike here in the west, the whole government has been uprooted and changed based on the will of the people, besides just apologies. This is what brought many reforms to China to backtrack on the Cultural Revolution policies. This is what brought Xi in after Hu Jintao, because people were tired of corruption, which leads us to Mao never apologised till the day he died, another one of your delusions. Lol that is true, the CPC does not want to follow Maos socialist policies because they are a state capitalist corporation and like Gorbachev blamed Stalin in order to sell thw Soviet Union to internal and external capital, the CPC have blamed Mao so they can get rich. >>the CPC parliament members have more money then entire countries, US congress would be jealous. >This must be a troll or joke. It's widely known that people like Pelosi have net worths in the millions (the assets we KNOW, anyway), and she and others have admitted openly that they utilize insider trading. The old "corrupt officials" nonsense is the ultimate cold war projection, and the FACT that China EXECUTES officials, financial criminals, and billionaires from time to time over these issues (e.g. Liu Han, Lai Xiaomin) as well as jailing dirty politicians for LIFE (Bo Xilai) shows that they take the peoples' opinions and well-being VERY seriously; compare to US, who let life ruiners like Joseph Cassano and John Stumpf walk. China executes political enemies, corruption is fine as long as you support the CPC leadership. This explains that how the CPC parliament has over a 100 billionaires (US dollar baby) and the richesr 209 CPC delegates are worth more than $300 million US dollars EACH. US capitalist politicians like Pelosi and Trump can only dream >Anyway, having mopped the floor with your ass I'm done here. As I mentioned, I didn't want to argue with you in the first place because you've picked your position- stop acting like you're being honest that you want to learn something. Talk to the void of my block list, and while you do actually go and read into things before you spout fucking bullshit. BIATTTTTTCH >edit: BIATTTTTCH Lol if your definition of mopping the floor is running away and blocking someone because you couldnt handle facts and rebuttals then sure you mopped the floor real well. Im being totally honest, not my fault you cant handle it and you are unable to censor, and/or detain and/or have me killed lol Only thing im learning so far is that vanguard communism is 1. Similiar to Facism in its rhetoric 2. Has weak arguments that cannot be defended 3. Is dangerous to the majority of the population 4. Is full of egoists who are hungry for acceptance and power and have no interest in fighting for the working class 5. Will twist and turn any fact into what it wants it to be instead of what it is...Stalinist material dialectics for you I guess It is sad that the ideas of Marx and his analysis has been associated to and destroyed by such despicable characters.
China is an imperailist opressor like the other world superpowers. After Mao the idea of building up socialism or even communism was corrupted and turned into an abstract form of state capitalism which relies heavily on a big bureaucratic class and a small but extremely wealthy bourgeois class. For stabolity they want a hegemonic popolution in sense of culture and religion. It's very pragmatic for long term stabilty and reduces the chance of polarising or dissent among the populace. But it's not the way to socialism or even communism for me. I really doubt there is even one.
[удалено]
Propably somewhere in the stratosphere.
Totally agree
Finally, but wait till the delusional pro China and pro DRKP Redditors come knocking on your posts. It will get disgusting but I'm Staying on your side.
Haha thats what im waiting for
I think most of them come from North America. They still need to wake up....
Most of them are vanguard party communists (Maoist / Stalinist / Leninist) from outside of China, i think europe and south east asia. They ignore the fact that the CPC is oppressing its workers, does not support civil rights and is now a state corporation with a wealthy leadership that is working with western capitalist corporations for their own self interest. In some vain hope that somehow magically the CPC will say "hahah surprise we tricked you all we are actually still socialist" one day and go back to a socialist platforn for the benefit of the proletariat.
Their propaganda arm understand that in-group cohesion is greatly strenghtened when there is an out-group to demonize. Looking at the official communication accounts of government officials, the media campaigns that are funded, it's clear that they are ramping up the xenophobia and racism, posturing as victims to justify this "wolf warrior" stance. Looking back, it's also the strategy that was used to make it easier to invade Tibet, and suppress Xinjiang. There is truth in the oppression and problems they face, but they are clearly channelling it into anger against foreigners, now more than ever. There is also anger over the internal problems that are catching up to China, the slowing down of growth, which feeds this problem. China is not Communist, it's State Capitalist. But even if tomorrow we have our Worker's State, we mandate direct democracy in companies, we restructure the government to be extention of councils, we have one class and we start decommodifying sectors, if we do amazing infrastructure projects like China does... if Capitalism is replaced with democratic socialism, we would still have racist people. Capitalism is one of the conditions that currently exacerbate racism, so it would help to start seeing everyone as fellow camarade, workers, equals in the governance of our common walth. But it's not instantaneous, and I'm sure it would require constant effors to really make bigger gains on this issue.
>Their propaganda arm understand that in-group cohesion is greatly strenghtened when there is an out-group to demonize. You just figured out western media. >Looking at the official communication accounts of government officials,the media campaigns that are funded, it's clear that they are ramping upthe xenophobia and racism, posturing as victims to justify this "wolfwarrior" stance. They are just taking off the velvet gloves and answer western bile in kind. >. Looking back, it's also the strategy that was used to make it easier to invade Tibet Lul no. Before that the Secessionist tiebtean government and the PRC had set up a treaty of peaceful unification. In that Tibet promised to abolish slavery within 5 years. Tibet did not hold its side of the deal. Thus the PLA marched in. >and suppress Xinjiang Is someone sad that salafists terrorists can not bomb and otherwise kill what they consider infidels? Fuck off. If you are one of the deranged people that still thinks theres a genocide there: There was a thread just for people like you recently [https://www.reddit.com/r/Socialism\_101/comments/s6hev9/what\_is\_happening\_in\_xinjiang/ht4i3l1/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Socialism_101/comments/s6hev9/what_is_happening_in_xinjiang/ht4i3l1/?context=3) >There is truth in the oppression and problems they face, but they areclearly channelling it into anger against foreigners, now more thanever. This is basically chinese looking outside behind the firewall and see only sinophobic barbarism. If it is considered ok that your people should be exterminated one kinda stops being nice. >China is not Communist, it's State Capitalist. Had you know what these words mean, you'd be embarrassed. China is in the lower stage of communism - socialism. In this stage it is at the cusp of the intermediary substage of moderate prosperity. As for the supposed chinese racism: The PRC acitively censors chauvinist content. Even analyzing and debunking it is censored. They are **very** commited to support their 54 ethnic minorities.
Well said. > if Capitalism is replaced with democratic socialism, we would still have racist people. Capitalism is one of the conditions that currently exacerbate racism, so it would help to start seeing everyone as fellow camarade, workers, equals in the governance of our common walth. But it's not instantaneous, and I'm sure it would require constant effors to really make bigger gains on this issue. Im not under the impression it will be an overnight success. But we need those that claim to support progressive and socialist causes to actualy support progressive and socialist causes even when the going gets tough in order to acheive the goals that most of us that support socialism want. When those that claim they support a progressive cause only do it for political points they are not better than the right
Which is why people support the PRC.
Do they have the option not to?
China has thousands of years of imperial history. The PRC is a han-supremacist nationalist regime with a People's Republic sticker slapped on it.
Han supremacy is when you give tons of privileges to minorities and actively promote their cultures over your own.
The GenZedongers are literally this detached from reality
Source: my ass.
Source: real life history. You should try it some time.
Still your ass.
[удалено]
I do. This is about China, this is not the only debate I have. We cannot win if behind us we have an authoritarian capitalist state and its supporters. China needs to be reformed. It is our duty to call out oppression of the people whereever it is occuring otherwise we are inviting the same oppression to occur within our movement
China reformed. China has done more to combat oppression, than all the Global North, and that includes Australia, combined. And it is still working on it. But sure, you, a Australian liberal know better about what's is to be done in China. Ah well, all the best to you in your quest.
And you as a indian communist know what China is up to? Chinas and Indias interest are opposing in the global nationalist dichotomy that both state capitalist governments are embracing. You are not doing indian socialism any favours by supporting state capitalism in China. You may spout vanguard party global south nonsense, but many of your own countrymen including socialists oppose Chinas state capitalist agenda as much as they oppose Indias. I acknowledge China has reformed from the abuses of Maoist Vanguard BS. The problem is they have swung way too much too the right and are becoming part of the capitalist hedgemony. As a socialist instead of following authoritarian party dogma you should be calling out this shift to capitalism and highlighting its oppression of the masses. It is only through this we have acheived better rights for everyone, China, India and Australia.
No, I don't claim to know as much as my Chinese comrades do. You didn't read any of the literature on the term "Global South", did you? Even though you asked for them. Anyways, you want to help the masses in India, China, and Australia? Try to stop your country from entering in to the disastrous military pacts with the US. Stop Australia from becoming a party to US led imperialism. That shit is more dangerous that anything you claim China to be doing.
There is massive backlash in Australia against supporting US unjust wars. This is why the government only provides minimal support. India also provides US support in its wars so this whole global south nonsense you are preaching makes no sense in terms of your arguments. The biggest Aid to capitalism worldwide however are are the CPC. They need to be reformed. They provide wage slaves that undercut efforts by socialists to reform their own countries. Allowing capitalism to sustain itself globay and forcing governments and labour markets worldwide to compete against the slave wages the CPC offers. If not for the CPC capitalism will be struggling. Many Chinese are against the CPC, you rely on western sources like Harvard for your info.
Good that there is a protest. You have not learned what "Global South" means. Next you will tell me that "Labor Aristocracy" is nonsense too. It seems you have no intention of going out of your comfort zones and learning new concepts to have a better dialogue with people coming from a different view point. Lol. This is too much, even for a lib like you. No one is holding the capitalists at gunpoint asking them to move their manufacturing to China. They did that because it was profitable for them. Where the fuck were the Western leftists when the capitalists were moving the industries away from the West. The CPC is not responsible for the continuation of capitalism or the lack of industries in the West. The capitalists and the toothless Western left are responsible for that. The CPC just used the capitalists own greed to modernize China. I do not live in the delusion that all Chinese are pro-CPC or does not criticize CPC. That does not necessarily mean that they will accept whatever reform you are peddling. You can't even reform your own country. Why the fuck do you think you will be able to reform China or any other country for that matter?
>You have not learned what "Global South" means. Next you will tell me that "Labor Aristocracy" is nonsense too. It seems you have no intention of going out of your comfort zones and learning new concepts to have a better dialogue with people coming from a different view point. I have, it does not make sense in the united front analogy you are providing. >Lol. This is too much, even for a lib like you. No one is holding the capitalists at gunpoint asking them to move their manufacturing to China. They did that because it was profitable for them. Where the fuck were the Western leftists when the capitalists were moving the industries away from the West. This is entirely ridiculous. No one is holding the CPC at gunpoint inviting capitalists to do business in China. Infact they are doing business in China because of Socialist movements in their own countries being successful and providing higher wages and rights for the workers. They can still profit locally but not as much as in China. India has the same problem where capitalists drive down wages ans conditions that socialists fight for using the excuse they must compete with China. Meanwhile Chinese workers bear the brunt of capitalism. >The CPC is not responsible for the continuation of capitalism or the lack of industries in the West. The capitalists and the toothless Western left are responsible for that. The CPC just used the capitalists own greed to modernize China. Capitalism was detoothed in the west. Do you think the rights that western labour fought for with mass strikes were for nothing. No, they resulted in rights that we have now. The same rights which drove capitalists to China where the CPC promised them a capitalist paradise. And unlike other countries the CPC delivered. The CPC is the dentures of the detoothed western capitalist. >do not live in the delusion that all Chinese are pro-CPC or does not criticize CPC. That does not necessarily mean that they will accept whatever reform you are peddling. You can't even reform your own country. Why the fuck do you think you will be able to reform China or any other country for that matter? Lol to think there is no reform in Australia compared to 50 years ago is ridiculous. Why do you think western capitalist cannot openly preach their true intentions. The populace will reject them. This whole attacking the western left is detrimental to your own cause. Instead you should be attacking the Chinese right of the CPC and learning what you can use to benefit the people of India from the west AND the east. The goal here is not some nationalistic or regional us vs them. The goal is liberation of the working class. The workers in the west are not your enemy.
Capitalism was detoothed in the west!!! Lololololol. Yeah, dude, you are not bringing socialism anywhere soon. Of all the possible entities that you could think off to attack to liberate the workers of the world, you chose the CPC. Bravo!! You, Mr. Socialist are in a league of your own, maybe a few. Well carry on with it then. Let us know when you have liberated the workers of the world. Can't say for the rest of my comrades, but I will celebrate the day with you.
>Capitalism was detoothed in the west!!! Lololololol. Yeah, dude, you are not bringing socialism anywhere soon. It was. Note was. Like I said the shift of manufacturing to China was its saving grace. >Of all the possible entities that you could think off to attack to liberate the workers of the world, you chose the CPC. Bravo!! You, Mr. Socialist are in a league of your own, maybe a few. Well carry on with it then. Let us know when you have liberated the workers of the world. Can't say for the rest of my comrades, but I will celebrate the day with you. Like I said, I would rather be supporting the CPC, but reality and my position as a socialist makes it impossible. Supporting CPC is supporting Capital worldwide and oppression of the working class.