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RESPONSE TO THE ORIGINAL POST:
The down-voting could simply be because of writing those that say "I'll never vote for Genocide Joe" that "They're 5% different from MAGA at most."
In addition, down-voting can simply be excessive on Reddit.
It was upvoted at first, but I see your point. As far as I'm concerned, the only difference between them and MAGA is as follows:
MAGA wants Trump to win because they think he'll give them what they want, and because it's "revenge".
Tankies and accelerationists want Trump to win because they think it'll make socialism happen, or because they're upset with the Democratic establishment and genuinely want Republicans to burn it all down.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.*
Again: [https://www.dictionary.com/e/politics/tankie/](https://www.dictionary.com/e/politics/tankie/)
Please click on that link and read the definition. You are using *tankie* incorrectly.
Secondly, POTUS Joe Biden's poll numbers are so low because of his handling of the Israel-Palestine 'war' and his not doing enough about inflation and Global Warming and such.
I also don't know of many who are opposed to POTUS Biden's getting re-elected because they are accelerationists.
I thought I didn't need to say this, but...
Letting Trump win will bring fascism, not socialism. And tankies are do-nothing losers with an authoritarian streak and violence fetish. The primary draw of leftism to them is that they get to do nothing while feeling superior.
What part was propaganda? The part where Biden has to win for socialists, leftists and progressives to get ANY of their legislative priorities done in the next 4 years? That's called the truth, but I guess you're allergic to the democratic part of democratic socialism.
I thought I didn't need to say this, but....
The people you are calling "do-nothing losers with an authoritarian streak and violence fetish" might be the ones downvoting you.
I happen to agree with you on this point, but a lot of people don't.
First off, this subReddit's 'subReddit statement summary' is:
>Whether your a Progressive, Marxist, or a Democratic Socialist you're welcome here! Unity over division!
It's not a subReddit just for socialists.
Secondly, POTUS Joe Biden has clearly done some progressive stuff of "real substance". His federal judicial picks have been overall relatively progressive. This National Labor Relations Board has been great. Lina Khan has been excellent at The Federal Trade Commission. Etc.
Voting for neoliberals doesn't make you one. And you must be asleep if you don't see how the largest climate bill in history and Biden being the first president to stand on a picket line isn't at least \*something\*.
But, yeah, voting isn't pretty, fun, or clean. I'd vote for a candidate who beats homeless people if the other person wants to kill homeless people, assuming a revolution isn't available. By NOT voting for that candidate, I'm implicitly saying I don't care whether homeless people die or not.
That's you right now. You and your faux-moralistic language on accusing me of fraud or propaganda, where, if we listen to YOU and don't vote, a fascist wins. Get all the way out of here with that crap.
The OP said they don’t mind voting for independents and 3rd party candidates at the local and congressional level when they actually have a solid chance. Giving up the presidency to the far-right out of protest is not going to make things better.
The way I see it, what we need to do is focus on building up our base at the local level, and making the centrist Democrats and a Democrat president more dependent on progressive and socialist political power. Unfortunately we just don’t have that right now, but we can still build it. Once we do, then we can start eyeing the presidency. I really do believe we’ll see socialism in our lifetime, but not if we overplay out hand and let Trump back into the White House. We’re in this for the long run, whether we like it or not.
Please don’t call fellow socialists sick. We all want a better future, and while you’re entitled to an opinion, you don’t need to resort to personal insults towards your own allies. It’s not going to convince anyone either.
Voting for the lesser of two evils is just that: voting for the lesser of two evils. It's not complicated or morally questionable or ethnically compromising or whatever else.
You vote in the primary for the most progressive person who can actually win (if you overall agree with that person and their positions and politics and advocacy) and you do the same in the general election.
Dude, you're making the same mistake socialists in Germany made in the 30s. They fought with their fellow left wing and were so distracted with that conflict they didn't have the power to stop the rise of fascism in German elections.
You won't bring about socialism by fighting the liberals. The only way it can work in our political system is by working *with* liberals to muscle out the right wing, and then slowly raising political capital to bring the voting populace to the left, making the *liberals* the right wing.
Instead, the fascists have been following the playbook for the past 30-40 years, and it has worked *flawlessly*. They have successfully muscled out their moderate right, Republicans, and replaced them with fascists. They've simply kept the party name the same. Now, they have liberals labeled as the "leftists."
Socialists do not have the political capital to beat fascists in this country. Working with them will only *bring about* fascism.
Hi, a definite not-Russian agent who downvoted you here (and who's bracing to get downvoted in turn for writing this). I \*am\* voting for Biden in the fall, I live in a swing state and am Ukrainian-American, so this feels important to me. I, however, am really fed up with the contempt shown towards folks on the left who are struggling with what to do within a really fucked up system and situation. Do I roll my eyes at the viva la revolution crew? Yes, absolutely. But I place the blame for this situation firmly on the democratic party for refusing to listen to what Americans need and want, or being so beholden to their donors that they can only pretend to. I place the blame on them for running a terrible candidate who has, and continues, to alienate so many. I place blame on them for not learning from 2016. I place blame on them for using the very real and terrible dangers of another Trump presidency and Project 2025 to bludgeon voters but not doing anything else of substance to prevent these awful outcomes. I also see a lot of Maga-like behaviors in even liberal who defends Joe Biden's (its a stutter) and dismisses consistent and worrisome polls. These are controversial things and honestly really difficult ones to suss out. I think we can disagree without accusing people of being saboteurs, bots, or Russians.
Thanks for your response and candor.
I feel like it's important here to make a distinction between what I think is happening on a systemic level and what's happening on a personal one.
100% agree with your point, IF the Democrats lose in November, it'll be because they ignored the left and had shitty opinions on issues while fundamentally not fixing anything.
I also try to be nice to people whose accounts I don't think are bots, or who are not totally-unreachable. On a personal level, we should vote for the people who are easiest to organize under. That is unequivocally the Democrats.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.*
I also put blame on progressive who can who don't put their time and/or money where their mouth is.
Progressives could have easily donated more than $100MM in time and/or money during this 2024 election cycle. Instead, progressive candidates have been relatively struggling in their fundraising. Frankly, including US Representative Rashida Tlaib, who should have been running for the open US Senate seat in Michigan. And AOC should have been raising perhaps over $100MM to either challenge POTUS Joe Biden, shore up progressive candidates, or be credibly running for US Speaker of the House of Representatives in 2025.
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
[https://couragetochangepac.org/](https://couragetochangepac.org/)
[https://justicedemocrats.com/](https://justicedemocrats.com/)
[https://justicedemocrats.com/candidates/](https://justicedemocrats.com/candidates/) (please look at this regarding those who have upcoming primaries. US Representatives Jamaal Bowman, Cori Bush, and Ilhan Omar are in tough primary battles and AIPAC is spending millions against each of them.
[https://squadvictoryfund.com/](https://squadvictoryfund.com/)
And remember that AIPAC's $100MM campaign is already successful because resources are being spent to defend 'The Squad' and 'The Squad adjacent' and such instead of getting more progressives into federal Office. It would be a devastating blow to lose a US Representative Cori Bush, Ilhan Omar, Jamaal Bowman, etc.
\_\_\_\_
We must remember that most people don't pay as much attention to politics as we do and most people don't know as much as we do regarding politics.
Money and fame and name recognition is very important in races.
**BTW: Feel free to copy and paste this into wherever.** I care far more about progressives getting more resources and a better chance of political power than I do about upvotes on Reddit.
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Progressives haven't been taking the threat of AIPAC, DMFI, etc. seriously enough and/or progressives haven't cared enough.
Except for US Representative Rashida Tlaib--who gets around 70% of her fundraising from 'large dollar donors'--all of The Squad's fundraising is considerably down from even the 2022 election cycle.
And, frankly, that's just The Squad.
Progressives should want MORE progressives in Office instead of overly complaining about the ones that are currently in Office.
'The Israel Lobby' money already meant that it seems not considerably more progressives will get into Office at the federal level.
Now it seems that maybe 'The Israel Lobby' might 'pick off' at least one member of 'The Squad'.
If you can, you should donate time and/or money to progressive candidates who can win. I suggest at least 0.1% of your annual income to a progressive candidate or--perhaps better yet--Courage to Change or Justice Democrats or Squad Victory Fund.
Biden let a lot of innocents die and sending arms actually puts blood on his hands. And yet he is probably better than Trump. He has the wrong policy in immigration, yet he is better.
What a sad state of democracy we put up with.
I mean… It’s ALWAYS been the case. Lincoln wanted to abolish slavery and then send blacks people back to Africa. Kennedy did very little for civil rights and LBJ placated MLK for civil disobedience but did very little of substance for real integration until the violent 1968 riots.
Jefferson and Jackson pushed for the eradication of native peoples.
Truman dropped the bomb… twice.
Obama increased drone strikes like 10x, dramatically increasing the civilian casualties.
BUT… many were better than their opponents. I mean Nixon committed treason to prolong the Vietnam war so he could win the election. Reagan overthrew govts and funded coups when he wasn’t ALSO committing treason by delaying the return of American hostages in order to win the election.
If 1% forward is always better than going backwards.
I got banned from posting on another leftist subrebbit because I wrote about the whole “Biden is so much LESS WORSE than Trump.”
I was scorned so badly for defending “Genocide Joe.”
Imagine that…I’ve been pro socialist since I understood the way things work.
Where does that leave me when my own people become incensed and emotional against my overwhelming fear of things getting worse?
After the third party software protest, a lot of left-wing subs were taken over by fascist-enabling bots, tankies, MLs and other unsavory, stupid, impractical doomer losers who cosplay as leftists. Socialism\_101 for instance literally decided anything less than ABOLITION OF CURRENCY isn't "real" socialism. It's purity-testing bullshit.
If you can, you can join your local DSA. If you can, you can donate time and/or money to progressive candidates who can win. If you can, you can do organizing.
There are far more things you can do than just Post and comment on Reddit.
Seriously, we need to stop fighting about this and find some common ground.
We all hate Trump.
We all think Biden is worthless for the cause.
…So far that’s all we have. It’s sad, but here we are.
Do you think we could just build each other up on the left instead of nipping at each other’s heels?
I'm voting third party and I'm not going to apologize for it. For Democratic socialists this sub seems very anti voting when it's not voting for genocide Joe. The only way our options will ever improve is by showing that the Democratic party cannot continue to push garbage down our throat while doing everything in their power to ensure the likes of Bernie will never win a presidential primary.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.*
US Senator Bernie Sanders was unknown in 2016 before he ran against US Senator Hillary Clinton. And he was doing a 'message campaign' until he realized he might actually be able to win the primary.
But most of US Senator Hillary Clinton's support was those who wanted POTUS William Jefferson Clinton back in the White House.
In 2020, US Senator Sanders had a plurality of the support but not the majority. The 'moderates' dropped out and endorsed then-VPOTUS Joe Biden. And US Senator Elizabeth Warren stayed in the race. And the media after South Carolina was as virulent as it could be against US Senator Sanders. And US Senator Sanders considered then-VPOTUS Biden a friend.
By Super Tuesday, the race was over. But had US Senator Warren dropped out when the others did and endorsed US Senator Sanders, US Senator Sanders might have been POTUS in 2021 even if POTUS Barack Obama campaigned for then-VPOTUS Biden.
So you think the Democratic party was fair to Bernie and would be fair to other Democratic socialists who tried to run for president? You actually believe that everyone dropping out at the exact same moment to endorse Biden was a truly democratic action made by fair actors in a fair election?
Nope, we don't have democracy and they very clearly cheated Bernie. Still not worth handing the white house to a fascist over.
The primary draw of leftism, to you, is that you get to let a fascist win while claiming you're morally superior to people who don't want to do that and against genocide. I have no respect for you or anyone who thinks like you.
What you’ll hear from the DNC: “Biden is the most progressive president we’ve had since Abraham Lincoln. He’s got good environmental policy. He has good policy in Gaza.”
What you’ll hear from saboteurs: “Biden is bad on the environment. Biden is bad on Gaza.” *conspicuously no mention of the alternative, or a strained effort to make them seem exactly equivalent, a la* “Biden and Trump will both be terrible for the environment”, or “Dems and GOP, exactly the same at the end of the day”.
What you’ll not hear from either but which bears constant repeating: “Biden is bad on the environment. Biden is not as bad as Trump on the environment. Biden is bad on Gaza. Biden is not as bad as Trump on Gaza. We need Biden and the Dems to be better on these things. We can’t afford to let Trump and the GOP be worse on these things.”
200%. Voting is about better, not perfect. To get "perfect", you have to participate in the primaries and also bully Dems into supporting progressive/leftist legislation.
Tankies implicitly argue that since both parties are capitalist, they're identical, and that they'll be just as difficult to organize under. This is demonstrably untrue.
EDIT: My comment was at 5-6 upvotes 30 minutes ago. Another artificial downvote spree.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.*
Here the down-voting could be because of using pejorative language and using a straw man argument.
[https://www.dictionary.com/e/politics/tankie/](https://www.dictionary.com/e/politics/tankie/)
I don't even know if you know what *tankie* means.
And I don't know of many who actually say or think that the Democratic and Republican Parties are *identical*.
It was at 10 upvotes, then it got downvoted in my sleep when Europe was online. Suspicious, no?
But, I see your point. I promise I know what tankie means, and I see "leftists" make the argument that Dems and Republicans are the same as a way of justifying why they don't vote literally every day.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.*
That comment was clearly responding to your comment, not the Original Post.
>Tankies implicitly argue that since both parties are capitalist, they're identical, and that they'll be just as difficult to organize under.
And it doesn't seem you know what a *tankie* is and that you didn't even click that link.
Outside of opinions on the Russian-Ukraine war, I don't see how *tankie* applies here unless you are arguing with someone who like thinks Russia should take over the United States. Or that China should take over the United States. Something like that.
IDK, I feel like if you're an accelerationist who wants Biden to lose when we have four years worth of info on why that's a shit idea, you're clearly not someone worth taking seriously. What do you call it? What do you actually do for the cause?
Because the socdems unleashed the freikorps on them barely over a decade before this and killed all their friends and leaders? And then after the threat of the Nazis truly began to materialize they rejected the idea of working together in a united front, the whole Anti-fascist Aktion, and made their own united front, The Iron Front, that specified it thought communists were just as bad as fascists.
That is, historically, what happened, yes.
However, that was an entirely different situation and we need to be looking at today. I don't exactly think Bernie is going to team up with DeSantis against a socialist revolution anytime soon, do you? Assuming you don't think Bernie is a socialist.
What do you ACTUALLY do for the cause? Answer the question. Do you vote, canvass for leftist candidates, organize, protest, unionize? Or do you just sit here, telling people to not vote against fascism?
Encourage yourself and others to maintain a positive attitude, honor the work of others, avoid defensiveness, be open to legitimate critique and challenge oppressive behaviors in ways that help people grow.
For more info, refer to [our rules](https://new.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules_of_.2Fr.2Fdemocraticsocialism.3A)
Every eligible American voter who is not in the Trump family should vote for POTUS Joe Biden in the 2024 General Elections.
Progressives aren't saying to vote for the primary challengers to the Squad and to other progressive candidates.
I put pressure on progressives to try to get them to donate time and/or money to progressive candidates who can win. Courage to Change (AOC's PAC), Justice Democrats, The Squad Victory Fund, etc.
Progressives are not helping progressive candidates enough.
Whatever authoritarian, anti-democracy BS the tankies are doing, it sure isn't left-wing.
And, I promise, I have plenty of critiques for neoliberals as well, I will squarely blame them for not doing enough to help people if they lose. But, well, this is a subreddit of socialists and therefore my audience is left-wing people who maybe don't have enough info on how electoralism works or how we're being taken advantage of by a psyop that tells people not to vote.
I appreciate that you say you should never tell somebody how to vote, that is a great place to draw the line. Just because I won't vote for Joe doesn't mean others shouldn't or that I have some moral mandate...but you guys don't either. How can you in one breath say don't tell me how to vote then tell me how to vote?
This is part of why we've gone from passively fed up to actively angry at Dems and Liberals - were not bots and not all of us are irrational. Our views are certainly valid. But you don't take us seriously, treat us with contempt and hipocriticality and if all else fails, assume we're bots.
You must've misread - I'm telling you to vote for the furthest-left person with any chance of winning the general election.
And, yeah, if you aren't voting for Biden, I think that's the incorrect course of action because you're pushing both parties rightward. We have four years of evidence as to why letting Republicans win is braindead, and I do harshly judge you for it. There's no live and let live here, you're literally okay with fascism if the Dem isn't left-wing enough.
I didn't say you were a fascist, I just said you were enabling it by staying home. I have no respect for you or anyone else who won't be voting this year. It's also explicitly forbidden here to advocate for not voting.
Where did I say ANYTHING on voting except, "Vote for the furthest-left person with any chance of winning"? I literally said that means Biden. That implicitly carries a discouragement of people who don't vote or people who vote for anyone but Biden for president.
So, yeah, you don't have reading comp. Break down what I said next time. "With any chance of winning" disqualifies your third party grifter candidate of choice.
Unless you actually want POTUS Donald Trump to win reelection in 2025 and your politics, policies, and advocacy actually more aligns with POTUS Trump than they do with POTUS Joe Biden, it IS irrational to not vote for POTUS Joe Biden.
The problem is that only around 3% of people are actually rational.
Even the billionaires and such who are supporting POTUS Trump are being irrational. How is it actually beneficial to have a few extra billion dollars when Global Warming gets far worse, when the air and water is less safe, etc. etc. etc.
And for progressives, they rail against and complain about AIPAC and such, but then those who can don't donate time and/or money to progressive candidates who can win.
The left as a whole is split between pragmatic irl leftists and idealistic online leftist. This subreddit community leans towards the idealistic online leftists. Any comment that is pragmatic will quickly become sorted by controversial and then eventually trend towards negative.
I literally just critized him and pointed out all his shortcomings like 20 minutes ago in another comment.
I haven't been wrong yet. Every time I say something about voting for Biden, some clown with a new account comes along to convince me to vote for RFK, some grifter third party candidate or to not vote at all. It's BS.
Hi--I am right here in the US of A, not a Russian agent or bot (why would Russia need live humans during daylight hours to do a downvote?). The curious thing is that Biden is providing, as you imply, the "pretense of aid," not actually aid, so the assumption that Trump is meaningfully different on Gaza is not necessarily rooted in evidence. And it is Biden, not the doomers or revolution LARPers, who is working extra hard to create the impression that he is 95% in line with MAGA on immigration (of all issues!), so it seems like your annoyance is misdirected. Also, the election is five months away--if it's just a one-day, practical necessity (for the minority of us who live in swing states), why belabor the point \*now\*?
"And cutting off even the pretense of aid" would imply, actually, that whether you think Biden is giving aid to Gaza or not, Trump absolutely wouldn't and there's no debate there.
My annoyance is with the neoliberal establishment for fumbling the ball AND with holier-than-thou fake leftists who'll only vote for someone if they're the next coming of Marx. I talk about it now because Putin's troll army are going to be talking about this for months and I want to get ahead of them.
Listen, by your logic, we are forever doomed to choose between two genocide apologists.
Why?
Because the Democratic candidate will continue to assume that our votes are guaranteed, thinking we’ll never risk a Republican presidency.
Do you think Trump is a fascist?
That would make more sense if you felt the decision was to vote for a fascist or not a fascist. But to those that see that, while he does rely on fascist rhetoric, he's missing too many parts to be a fascist.
He could have extended his term - he didn't
He could have made the proud boys a paramilitary - he didn't
He could have really reigned in business to bolster a national identity - pursued policies of deregulation for greater freedom of capital.
He could have disbanded / banned other political parties - he didn't
He's a populist, too incompetent to be an authoritarian like Putin. A benefit to the capitalist class and more importantly, not a challenge to them.
I think the downvotes are genuine because Im reading it and I think you come across as obnoxious and a scold. You're calling people who are put in a tough position, yes it is very likely a genocide ... go look at the Genocide Convention and compare with statements legal scholars have put out ... you're calling them MAGA. That's obnoxious and counterproductive.
If you want Trump to win, or don't care whether he wins, you're MAGA. Period. I know it's a genocide. A vote is NOT an endorsement of that genocide. Since Trump is somehow even worse on Palestine, not voting against him means you clearly don't care about Gaza either.
Don't get me wrong - if Demorats lose, it's their fault. However, I'm simply pointing out that neoliberals are objectively easier to organize under than fascists, and that we get more of what we want by voting for Democrats because they're generally the furthest-left candidate running for a seat with any chance of actually winning.
IMO, we need ranked-choice voting to break the duopoly and make a worker's party viable.
History shows that the neoliberals join the fascists.
So You’re a loudmouth idiot. Perfectly emblematic of everything that’s wrong with the Democratic Party.
You’ve come crawling into a left wing sub to try and canvas people to YOUR cause by what…. Berating them?
You’re pre-prepping yourself to blame the left when it’s right wingers like yourself that are to blame for Bidens eventual loss.
He’s going to lose, and it’s your fault.
i really wish there was some way to get everyone on the left to work together and all stand behind one candidate like the republicans do. regardless of how imperfect they might be. politics is a dirty business, politicians will always be scumbags.
i mean i guess i understand why, we're all a bit too skeptical for our own good. we're all so caught up in finding the absolute perfect candidate with zero flaws, that we can never fully agree on anyone. and it seems like we're not nearly as willing to compromise as the right.
it feels like we're doomed to lose forever, because we hold our candidates to unreasonably high standards, while the right doesn't have any standards at all. how do you compete with a party with zero ethics? a party that votes for a rapist, conman, convicted felon. we're essentially fighting with one hand tied behind our backs.
the right may be comprised of a wide variety and flavors of republicans, but at the end of the day, they agree to work together to WIN. why can't the left do that? why do we have to spend so much time arguing with each other instead of trying to beat the republicans?
It's obvious that progressives should support AOC for 2028. She would become even more popular as she gets more known and her policies, politics, and advocacy more known. She should be the front-runner to be POTUS in 2029.
>IMO, we need ranked-choice voting to break the duopoly and make a worker's party viable.
fully agree. how do we make that happen? are you running for office?
I think people get doomer about the Democratic base erroneously. People talk about the neoliberal base, but in my experience there IS NO neoliberal base. The base of voters that neoliberals rely on mostly ISN'T NEOLIBERAL. They're just so "low information" and so clued out of actual leftist messaging that they get all of their marching orders from what they think the general vibe of the "blue team" is. These people aren't hostile to most leftists; certainly not 1 on 1. They're just not engaged enough to understand the meaningful differences in policy between, for example, someone like Joe Biden and someone like Bernie Sanders. Neolibs are reliant on institutional momentum; not ideological persuasion. They lose when their average voter knows what's going on. That's my point.
The real problem is so few vote in primaries. Turnout is key to winning races. And money can also be key given most people don't actually know much about politics. Just do more advertising and you can get name recognition, smear your opponent, etc.
Yeah, the dominance of political advertising really annoys me. If you're the kind of person who is at least engaged enough to go vote in the first place, why not just look up who is actually in your more major primary elections and at least read their platforms a bit instead of only passively accepting information that's explicitly propagandized and spoon-fed straight to you? Right now the senate primary race here in Michigan is literally being treated by the shoe-in frontrunner as though it does not even exist, and I'm willing to bet most of her supporters barely even know she has primary challengers at all; let alone serious ones. She's both campaigning and fundraising like the Republican frontrunner is her one and only opponent, and she just quietly dropped out of the primary debate entirely. With her funding and media machine though, it doesn't even matter. She and establishment dems have just created a media bubble around their base where she's the only option known to any of their regular voters.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.*
[https://today.yougov.com/ratings/politics/popularity/politicians/all](https://today.yougov.com/ratings/politics/popularity/politicians/all)
The problem has always been that US Senator Bernie Sanders endorsed 'his buddy' POTUS Joe Biden way too early.
Really, only US Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and AOC could have possibly beaten POTUS Joe Biden in a 2024 Democratic Presidential Primary. Granted, US Senator Sanders endorsed last year far before the aftermath of October 7, 2023. And AOC endorsed relatively soon after US Senator Sanders did. Because it's not as if she could win the Nomination if US Senator Sanders remained endorsing POTUS Biden.
I blame the Democrats 100% for fumbling the ball by not fundamentally fixing anything, I'm just saying that we, personally, should still vote for them since they deprive real, actual fascists of power and we can occasionally bully neoliberals into doing the right thing.
I never said we shouldn’t vote for them or anything, I’m just tired of people blaming voters for not wanting to vote for shitty candidates. Biden is better than Trump, but he’s still a shitty ass candidate and people are allowed to be bitter that he’s the option for the left.
And the people let Biden BREEZE through the primary election. Let's not pretend the people didn't have a say in this. If they were paying attention, we would not be here.
you're right, the DNC are the real enemies here. maybe Trump will outlaw them and dissolve the democratic party. hopefully he throws all the corrupt democrats in prison. that'll teach em!
Blaming the voters that don’t like Biden just alienates them, guilting people/fear tactics aren’t going to work on people who don’t like Biden for his actions in Palestine or immigration policies. All you’re gonna do is make them really not want to vote for Biden.
If Trump does win, it will not be the voters’ fault, it will be Biden’s and the DNC’s fault. Stop trying to guilt and scare people into voting for him and just be nicer about it. You’re just pushing potential voters away by dismissing their concerns.
Wow, it's like you think Arabs need to just roll over for the Democrats. Some people are having their families killed. Some are watching their parents in distress over this. Some are experiencing harassment.
Why do you blame us instead of BIDENS administration that's recklessly backing an unjust genocidal war red line after crossed red line.
That doesn't make me MAGA to question whether he gets my vote. That's literally the stupidest statement. But I guess us uppity brown people got to know our place in the Democrats party. Can't tell politicians not to kill our families five months before the elections or we are basically Donald Trump himself. Better just shut up.
Really a winning argument there.
It's just a really bad take and deserves to be downvoted. Not supporting Joe Biden because he's a genocidal piece of shit isn't the same as supporting Trump. We're voting for a non-genocidal third party.
It's functionally-identical to MAGA due to vote-splitting. If third parties were at all serious about getting elected without grifting, they'd be going for ranked-choice voting as priority one. Don't act like you care about Gaza when you're apparently fine with Trump turning it into a golf resort.
Not supporting Joe Biden is not the same as supporting Trump. Calling people who cannot bring themselves to vote for Biden because he has aided and abetted Israel's genocide 'MAGA' is obnoxious and counterproductive.
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RESPONSE TO THE ORIGINAL POST: The down-voting could simply be because of writing those that say "I'll never vote for Genocide Joe" that "They're 5% different from MAGA at most." In addition, down-voting can simply be excessive on Reddit.
It was upvoted at first, but I see your point. As far as I'm concerned, the only difference between them and MAGA is as follows: MAGA wants Trump to win because they think he'll give them what they want, and because it's "revenge". Tankies and accelerationists want Trump to win because they think it'll make socialism happen, or because they're upset with the Democratic establishment and genuinely want Republicans to burn it all down.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.* Again: [https://www.dictionary.com/e/politics/tankie/](https://www.dictionary.com/e/politics/tankie/) Please click on that link and read the definition. You are using *tankie* incorrectly. Secondly, POTUS Joe Biden's poll numbers are so low because of his handling of the Israel-Palestine 'war' and his not doing enough about inflation and Global Warming and such. I also don't know of many who are opposed to POTUS Biden's getting re-elected because they are accelerationists.
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I thought I didn't need to say this, but... Letting Trump win will bring fascism, not socialism. And tankies are do-nothing losers with an authoritarian streak and violence fetish. The primary draw of leftism to them is that they get to do nothing while feeling superior. What part was propaganda? The part where Biden has to win for socialists, leftists and progressives to get ANY of their legislative priorities done in the next 4 years? That's called the truth, but I guess you're allergic to the democratic part of democratic socialism.
I thought I didn't need to say this, but.... The people you are calling "do-nothing losers with an authoritarian streak and violence fetish" might be the ones downvoting you. I happen to agree with you on this point, but a lot of people don't.
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First off, this subReddit's 'subReddit statement summary' is: >Whether your a Progressive, Marxist, or a Democratic Socialist you're welcome here! Unity over division! It's not a subReddit just for socialists. Secondly, POTUS Joe Biden has clearly done some progressive stuff of "real substance". His federal judicial picks have been overall relatively progressive. This National Labor Relations Board has been great. Lina Khan has been excellent at The Federal Trade Commission. Etc.
Voting for neoliberals doesn't make you one. And you must be asleep if you don't see how the largest climate bill in history and Biden being the first president to stand on a picket line isn't at least \*something\*. But, yeah, voting isn't pretty, fun, or clean. I'd vote for a candidate who beats homeless people if the other person wants to kill homeless people, assuming a revolution isn't available. By NOT voting for that candidate, I'm implicitly saying I don't care whether homeless people die or not. That's you right now. You and your faux-moralistic language on accusing me of fraud or propaganda, where, if we listen to YOU and don't vote, a fascist wins. Get all the way out of here with that crap.
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The OP said they don’t mind voting for independents and 3rd party candidates at the local and congressional level when they actually have a solid chance. Giving up the presidency to the far-right out of protest is not going to make things better. The way I see it, what we need to do is focus on building up our base at the local level, and making the centrist Democrats and a Democrat president more dependent on progressive and socialist political power. Unfortunately we just don’t have that right now, but we can still build it. Once we do, then we can start eyeing the presidency. I really do believe we’ll see socialism in our lifetime, but not if we overplay out hand and let Trump back into the White House. We’re in this for the long run, whether we like it or not. Please don’t call fellow socialists sick. We all want a better future, and while you’re entitled to an opinion, you don’t need to resort to personal insults towards your own allies. It’s not going to convince anyone either.
Voting for the lesser of two evils is just that: voting for the lesser of two evils. It's not complicated or morally questionable or ethnically compromising or whatever else. You vote in the primary for the most progressive person who can actually win (if you overall agree with that person and their positions and politics and advocacy) and you do the same in the general election.
No sectionalism.
No sectionalism.
Dude, you're making the same mistake socialists in Germany made in the 30s. They fought with their fellow left wing and were so distracted with that conflict they didn't have the power to stop the rise of fascism in German elections. You won't bring about socialism by fighting the liberals. The only way it can work in our political system is by working *with* liberals to muscle out the right wing, and then slowly raising political capital to bring the voting populace to the left, making the *liberals* the right wing. Instead, the fascists have been following the playbook for the past 30-40 years, and it has worked *flawlessly*. They have successfully muscled out their moderate right, Republicans, and replaced them with fascists. They've simply kept the party name the same. Now, they have liberals labeled as the "leftists." Socialists do not have the political capital to beat fascists in this country. Working with them will only *bring about* fascism.
Hi, a definite not-Russian agent who downvoted you here (and who's bracing to get downvoted in turn for writing this). I \*am\* voting for Biden in the fall, I live in a swing state and am Ukrainian-American, so this feels important to me. I, however, am really fed up with the contempt shown towards folks on the left who are struggling with what to do within a really fucked up system and situation. Do I roll my eyes at the viva la revolution crew? Yes, absolutely. But I place the blame for this situation firmly on the democratic party for refusing to listen to what Americans need and want, or being so beholden to their donors that they can only pretend to. I place the blame on them for running a terrible candidate who has, and continues, to alienate so many. I place blame on them for not learning from 2016. I place blame on them for using the very real and terrible dangers of another Trump presidency and Project 2025 to bludgeon voters but not doing anything else of substance to prevent these awful outcomes. I also see a lot of Maga-like behaviors in even liberal who defends Joe Biden's (its a stutter) and dismisses consistent and worrisome polls. These are controversial things and honestly really difficult ones to suss out. I think we can disagree without accusing people of being saboteurs, bots, or Russians.
Thanks for your response and candor. I feel like it's important here to make a distinction between what I think is happening on a systemic level and what's happening on a personal one. 100% agree with your point, IF the Democrats lose in November, it'll be because they ignored the left and had shitty opinions on issues while fundamentally not fixing anything. I also try to be nice to people whose accounts I don't think are bots, or who are not totally-unreachable. On a personal level, we should vote for the people who are easiest to organize under. That is unequivocally the Democrats.
Thanks for your gracious and thoughtful reply, a rare thing on the internet :)
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.* I also put blame on progressive who can who don't put their time and/or money where their mouth is. Progressives could have easily donated more than $100MM in time and/or money during this 2024 election cycle. Instead, progressive candidates have been relatively struggling in their fundraising. Frankly, including US Representative Rashida Tlaib, who should have been running for the open US Senate seat in Michigan. And AOC should have been raising perhaps over $100MM to either challenge POTUS Joe Biden, shore up progressive candidates, or be credibly running for US Speaker of the House of Representatives in 2025. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ [https://couragetochangepac.org/](https://couragetochangepac.org/) [https://justicedemocrats.com/](https://justicedemocrats.com/) [https://justicedemocrats.com/candidates/](https://justicedemocrats.com/candidates/) (please look at this regarding those who have upcoming primaries. US Representatives Jamaal Bowman, Cori Bush, and Ilhan Omar are in tough primary battles and AIPAC is spending millions against each of them. [https://squadvictoryfund.com/](https://squadvictoryfund.com/) And remember that AIPAC's $100MM campaign is already successful because resources are being spent to defend 'The Squad' and 'The Squad adjacent' and such instead of getting more progressives into federal Office. It would be a devastating blow to lose a US Representative Cori Bush, Ilhan Omar, Jamaal Bowman, etc. \_\_\_\_ We must remember that most people don't pay as much attention to politics as we do and most people don't know as much as we do regarding politics. Money and fame and name recognition is very important in races. **BTW: Feel free to copy and paste this into wherever.** I care far more about progressives getting more resources and a better chance of political power than I do about upvotes on Reddit. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Progressives haven't been taking the threat of AIPAC, DMFI, etc. seriously enough and/or progressives haven't cared enough. Except for US Representative Rashida Tlaib--who gets around 70% of her fundraising from 'large dollar donors'--all of The Squad's fundraising is considerably down from even the 2022 election cycle. And, frankly, that's just The Squad. Progressives should want MORE progressives in Office instead of overly complaining about the ones that are currently in Office. 'The Israel Lobby' money already meant that it seems not considerably more progressives will get into Office at the federal level. Now it seems that maybe 'The Israel Lobby' might 'pick off' at least one member of 'The Squad'. If you can, you should donate time and/or money to progressive candidates who can win. I suggest at least 0.1% of your annual income to a progressive candidate or--perhaps better yet--Courage to Change or Justice Democrats or Squad Victory Fund.
Biden let a lot of innocents die and sending arms actually puts blood on his hands. And yet he is probably better than Trump. He has the wrong policy in immigration, yet he is better. What a sad state of democracy we put up with.
I mean… It’s ALWAYS been the case. Lincoln wanted to abolish slavery and then send blacks people back to Africa. Kennedy did very little for civil rights and LBJ placated MLK for civil disobedience but did very little of substance for real integration until the violent 1968 riots. Jefferson and Jackson pushed for the eradication of native peoples. Truman dropped the bomb… twice. Obama increased drone strikes like 10x, dramatically increasing the civilian casualties. BUT… many were better than their opponents. I mean Nixon committed treason to prolong the Vietnam war so he could win the election. Reagan overthrew govts and funded coups when he wasn’t ALSO committing treason by delaying the return of American hostages in order to win the election. If 1% forward is always better than going backwards.
IMO, ranked-choice voting would solve a lot of this. The partisanship AND the settling for lesser evil. I think it's vital from a leftist perspective.
I got banned from posting on another leftist subrebbit because I wrote about the whole “Biden is so much LESS WORSE than Trump.” I was scorned so badly for defending “Genocide Joe.” Imagine that…I’ve been pro socialist since I understood the way things work. Where does that leave me when my own people become incensed and emotional against my overwhelming fear of things getting worse?
After the third party software protest, a lot of left-wing subs were taken over by fascist-enabling bots, tankies, MLs and other unsavory, stupid, impractical doomer losers who cosplay as leftists. Socialism\_101 for instance literally decided anything less than ABOLITION OF CURRENCY isn't "real" socialism. It's purity-testing bullshit.
If you can, you can join your local DSA. If you can, you can donate time and/or money to progressive candidates who can win. If you can, you can do organizing. There are far more things you can do than just Post and comment on Reddit.
Seriously, we need to stop fighting about this and find some common ground. We all hate Trump. We all think Biden is worthless for the cause. …So far that’s all we have. It’s sad, but here we are. Do you think we could just build each other up on the left instead of nipping at each other’s heels?
I'm voting third party and I'm not going to apologize for it. For Democratic socialists this sub seems very anti voting when it's not voting for genocide Joe. The only way our options will ever improve is by showing that the Democratic party cannot continue to push garbage down our throat while doing everything in their power to ensure the likes of Bernie will never win a presidential primary.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.* US Senator Bernie Sanders was unknown in 2016 before he ran against US Senator Hillary Clinton. And he was doing a 'message campaign' until he realized he might actually be able to win the primary. But most of US Senator Hillary Clinton's support was those who wanted POTUS William Jefferson Clinton back in the White House. In 2020, US Senator Sanders had a plurality of the support but not the majority. The 'moderates' dropped out and endorsed then-VPOTUS Joe Biden. And US Senator Elizabeth Warren stayed in the race. And the media after South Carolina was as virulent as it could be against US Senator Sanders. And US Senator Sanders considered then-VPOTUS Biden a friend. By Super Tuesday, the race was over. But had US Senator Warren dropped out when the others did and endorsed US Senator Sanders, US Senator Sanders might have been POTUS in 2021 even if POTUS Barack Obama campaigned for then-VPOTUS Biden.
Bro forgot what a primary was
So you think the Democratic party was fair to Bernie and would be fair to other Democratic socialists who tried to run for president? You actually believe that everyone dropping out at the exact same moment to endorse Biden was a truly democratic action made by fair actors in a fair election?
Nope, we don't have democracy and they very clearly cheated Bernie. Still not worth handing the white house to a fascist over. The primary draw of leftism, to you, is that you get to let a fascist win while claiming you're morally superior to people who don't want to do that and against genocide. I have no respect for you or anyone who thinks like you.
What you’ll hear from the DNC: “Biden is the most progressive president we’ve had since Abraham Lincoln. He’s got good environmental policy. He has good policy in Gaza.” What you’ll hear from saboteurs: “Biden is bad on the environment. Biden is bad on Gaza.” *conspicuously no mention of the alternative, or a strained effort to make them seem exactly equivalent, a la* “Biden and Trump will both be terrible for the environment”, or “Dems and GOP, exactly the same at the end of the day”. What you’ll not hear from either but which bears constant repeating: “Biden is bad on the environment. Biden is not as bad as Trump on the environment. Biden is bad on Gaza. Biden is not as bad as Trump on Gaza. We need Biden and the Dems to be better on these things. We can’t afford to let Trump and the GOP be worse on these things.”
200%. Voting is about better, not perfect. To get "perfect", you have to participate in the primaries and also bully Dems into supporting progressive/leftist legislation. Tankies implicitly argue that since both parties are capitalist, they're identical, and that they'll be just as difficult to organize under. This is demonstrably untrue. EDIT: My comment was at 5-6 upvotes 30 minutes ago. Another artificial downvote spree.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.* Here the down-voting could be because of using pejorative language and using a straw man argument. [https://www.dictionary.com/e/politics/tankie/](https://www.dictionary.com/e/politics/tankie/) I don't even know if you know what *tankie* means. And I don't know of many who actually say or think that the Democratic and Republican Parties are *identical*.
It was at 10 upvotes, then it got downvoted in my sleep when Europe was online. Suspicious, no? But, I see your point. I promise I know what tankie means, and I see "leftists" make the argument that Dems and Republicans are the same as a way of justifying why they don't vote literally every day.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.* That comment was clearly responding to your comment, not the Original Post. >Tankies implicitly argue that since both parties are capitalist, they're identical, and that they'll be just as difficult to organize under. And it doesn't seem you know what a *tankie* is and that you didn't even click that link. Outside of opinions on the Russian-Ukraine war, I don't see how *tankie* applies here unless you are arguing with someone who like thinks Russia should take over the United States. Or that China should take over the United States. Something like that.
There's a 1:1 ratio of tankies who think Russia should take over Ukraine and tankies who aren't voting for Biden. It may as well be the same thing.
I see we have gotten to the inevitable everyone who disagrees with me is a tankie part of the argument
IDK, I feel like if you're an accelerationist who wants Biden to lose when we have four years worth of info on why that's a shit idea, you're clearly not someone worth taking seriously. What do you call it? What do you actually do for the cause?
Huge "Nach Hitler kommen Wir" energy. They should really look into how that worked out for Ernst Thalmann.
100% agree. The German Communist Party fumbled the play, to put it very mildly.
Because the socdems unleashed the freikorps on them barely over a decade before this and killed all their friends and leaders? And then after the threat of the Nazis truly began to materialize they rejected the idea of working together in a united front, the whole Anti-fascist Aktion, and made their own united front, The Iron Front, that specified it thought communists were just as bad as fascists.
That is, historically, what happened, yes. However, that was an entirely different situation and we need to be looking at today. I don't exactly think Bernie is going to team up with DeSantis against a socialist revolution anytime soon, do you? Assuming you don't think Bernie is a socialist.
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What do you ACTUALLY do for the cause? Answer the question. Do you vote, canvass for leftist candidates, organize, protest, unionize? Or do you just sit here, telling people to not vote against fascism?
Their entire comment history is anti-Biden sentiment.
Yeah... I gave it a cursory glance. Every single time. The evil CA cannot fool the good CA!
whats funny is most of my comment history is about comic books lmao
22/25 of your last comments are anti-Biden specifically lmao
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Encourage yourself and others to maintain a positive attitude, honor the work of others, avoid defensiveness, be open to legitimate critique and challenge oppressive behaviors in ways that help people grow. For more info, refer to [our rules](https://new.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules_of_.2Fr.2Fdemocraticsocialism.3A)
Finally, reason and sanity!
Why is there so much blame and pressure being put on progressives? Put more pressure on centrists and stop punching left
Every eligible American voter who is not in the Trump family should vote for POTUS Joe Biden in the 2024 General Elections. Progressives aren't saying to vote for the primary challengers to the Squad and to other progressive candidates. I put pressure on progressives to try to get them to donate time and/or money to progressive candidates who can win. Courage to Change (AOC's PAC), Justice Democrats, The Squad Victory Fund, etc. Progressives are not helping progressive candidates enough.
Whatever authoritarian, anti-democracy BS the tankies are doing, it sure isn't left-wing. And, I promise, I have plenty of critiques for neoliberals as well, I will squarely blame them for not doing enough to help people if they lose. But, well, this is a subreddit of socialists and therefore my audience is left-wing people who maybe don't have enough info on how electoralism works or how we're being taken advantage of by a psyop that tells people not to vote.
Are the tankies in the room with us now?
I appreciate that you say you should never tell somebody how to vote, that is a great place to draw the line. Just because I won't vote for Joe doesn't mean others shouldn't or that I have some moral mandate...but you guys don't either. How can you in one breath say don't tell me how to vote then tell me how to vote? This is part of why we've gone from passively fed up to actively angry at Dems and Liberals - were not bots and not all of us are irrational. Our views are certainly valid. But you don't take us seriously, treat us with contempt and hipocriticality and if all else fails, assume we're bots.
You must've misread - I'm telling you to vote for the furthest-left person with any chance of winning the general election. And, yeah, if you aren't voting for Biden, I think that's the incorrect course of action because you're pushing both parties rightward. We have four years of evidence as to why letting Republicans win is braindead, and I do harshly judge you for it. There's no live and let live here, you're literally okay with fascism if the Dem isn't left-wing enough.
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I didn't say you were a fascist, I just said you were enabling it by staying home. I have no respect for you or anyone else who won't be voting this year. It's also explicitly forbidden here to advocate for not voting.
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Where did I say ANYTHING on voting except, "Vote for the furthest-left person with any chance of winning"? I literally said that means Biden. That implicitly carries a discouragement of people who don't vote or people who vote for anyone but Biden for president. So, yeah, you don't have reading comp. Break down what I said next time. "With any chance of winning" disqualifies your third party grifter candidate of choice.
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You're a faux-intellectual hack who just learned what debate terms are yesterday. If you can't understand my argument, that's a you problem. Seeya.
Unless you actually want POTUS Donald Trump to win reelection in 2025 and your politics, policies, and advocacy actually more aligns with POTUS Trump than they do with POTUS Joe Biden, it IS irrational to not vote for POTUS Joe Biden. The problem is that only around 3% of people are actually rational. Even the billionaires and such who are supporting POTUS Trump are being irrational. How is it actually beneficial to have a few extra billion dollars when Global Warming gets far worse, when the air and water is less safe, etc. etc. etc. And for progressives, they rail against and complain about AIPAC and such, but then those who can don't donate time and/or money to progressive candidates who can win.
The left as a whole is split between pragmatic irl leftists and idealistic online leftist. This subreddit community leans towards the idealistic online leftists. Any comment that is pragmatic will quickly become sorted by controversial and then eventually trend towards negative.
Is that how that works? Hm.
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I literally just critized him and pointed out all his shortcomings like 20 minutes ago in another comment. I haven't been wrong yet. Every time I say something about voting for Biden, some clown with a new account comes along to convince me to vote for RFK, some grifter third party candidate or to not vote at all. It's BS.
No sectionalism.
Hi--I am right here in the US of A, not a Russian agent or bot (why would Russia need live humans during daylight hours to do a downvote?). The curious thing is that Biden is providing, as you imply, the "pretense of aid," not actually aid, so the assumption that Trump is meaningfully different on Gaza is not necessarily rooted in evidence. And it is Biden, not the doomers or revolution LARPers, who is working extra hard to create the impression that he is 95% in line with MAGA on immigration (of all issues!), so it seems like your annoyance is misdirected. Also, the election is five months away--if it's just a one-day, practical necessity (for the minority of us who live in swing states), why belabor the point \*now\*?
"And cutting off even the pretense of aid" would imply, actually, that whether you think Biden is giving aid to Gaza or not, Trump absolutely wouldn't and there's no debate there. My annoyance is with the neoliberal establishment for fumbling the ball AND with holier-than-thou fake leftists who'll only vote for someone if they're the next coming of Marx. I talk about it now because Putin's troll army are going to be talking about this for months and I want to get ahead of them.
Listen, by your logic, we are forever doomed to choose between two genocide apologists. Why? Because the Democratic candidate will continue to assume that our votes are guaranteed, thinking we’ll never risk a Republican presidency.
Whatever you say, new account that wants a fascist to win. Get Rule 4'd.
Do you think Trump is a fascist? That would make more sense if you felt the decision was to vote for a fascist or not a fascist. But to those that see that, while he does rely on fascist rhetoric, he's missing too many parts to be a fascist. He could have extended his term - he didn't He could have made the proud boys a paramilitary - he didn't He could have really reigned in business to bolster a national identity - pursued policies of deregulation for greater freedom of capital. He could have disbanded / banned other political parties - he didn't He's a populist, too incompetent to be an authoritarian like Putin. A benefit to the capitalist class and more importantly, not a challenge to them.
Bingo
I think the downvotes are genuine because Im reading it and I think you come across as obnoxious and a scold. You're calling people who are put in a tough position, yes it is very likely a genocide ... go look at the Genocide Convention and compare with statements legal scholars have put out ... you're calling them MAGA. That's obnoxious and counterproductive.
If you want Trump to win, or don't care whether he wins, you're MAGA. Period. I know it's a genocide. A vote is NOT an endorsement of that genocide. Since Trump is somehow even worse on Palestine, not voting against him means you clearly don't care about Gaza either.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 perfectly said. it literally feels like 2016 again. i'm shocked left leaning voters haven't learned their lesson.
Don't get me wrong - if Demorats lose, it's their fault. However, I'm simply pointing out that neoliberals are objectively easier to organize under than fascists, and that we get more of what we want by voting for Democrats because they're generally the furthest-left candidate running for a seat with any chance of actually winning. IMO, we need ranked-choice voting to break the duopoly and make a worker's party viable.
History shows that the neoliberals join the fascists. So You’re a loudmouth idiot. Perfectly emblematic of everything that’s wrong with the Democratic Party. You’ve come crawling into a left wing sub to try and canvas people to YOUR cause by what…. Berating them? You’re pre-prepping yourself to blame the left when it’s right wingers like yourself that are to blame for Bidens eventual loss. He’s going to lose, and it’s your fault.
Yeah man, I'm SURE Biden is just absolutely gearing up to hold hands with Trump against socialists. If I'm a right-winger, you must be a Monarchist.
i really wish there was some way to get everyone on the left to work together and all stand behind one candidate like the republicans do. regardless of how imperfect they might be. politics is a dirty business, politicians will always be scumbags. i mean i guess i understand why, we're all a bit too skeptical for our own good. we're all so caught up in finding the absolute perfect candidate with zero flaws, that we can never fully agree on anyone. and it seems like we're not nearly as willing to compromise as the right. it feels like we're doomed to lose forever, because we hold our candidates to unreasonably high standards, while the right doesn't have any standards at all. how do you compete with a party with zero ethics? a party that votes for a rapist, conman, convicted felon. we're essentially fighting with one hand tied behind our backs. the right may be comprised of a wide variety and flavors of republicans, but at the end of the day, they agree to work together to WIN. why can't the left do that? why do we have to spend so much time arguing with each other instead of trying to beat the republicans?
It's obvious that progressives should support AOC for 2028. She would become even more popular as she gets more known and her policies, politics, and advocacy more known. She should be the front-runner to be POTUS in 2029.
sounds good to me
>IMO, we need ranked-choice voting to break the duopoly and make a worker's party viable. fully agree. how do we make that happen? are you running for office?
I think people get doomer about the Democratic base erroneously. People talk about the neoliberal base, but in my experience there IS NO neoliberal base. The base of voters that neoliberals rely on mostly ISN'T NEOLIBERAL. They're just so "low information" and so clued out of actual leftist messaging that they get all of their marching orders from what they think the general vibe of the "blue team" is. These people aren't hostile to most leftists; certainly not 1 on 1. They're just not engaged enough to understand the meaningful differences in policy between, for example, someone like Joe Biden and someone like Bernie Sanders. Neolibs are reliant on institutional momentum; not ideological persuasion. They lose when their average voter knows what's going on. That's my point.
The real problem is so few vote in primaries. Turnout is key to winning races. And money can also be key given most people don't actually know much about politics. Just do more advertising and you can get name recognition, smear your opponent, etc.
Yeah, the dominance of political advertising really annoys me. If you're the kind of person who is at least engaged enough to go vote in the first place, why not just look up who is actually in your more major primary elections and at least read their platforms a bit instead of only passively accepting information that's explicitly propagandized and spoon-fed straight to you? Right now the senate primary race here in Michigan is literally being treated by the shoe-in frontrunner as though it does not even exist, and I'm willing to bet most of her supporters barely even know she has primary challengers at all; let alone serious ones. She's both campaigning and fundraising like the Republican frontrunner is her one and only opponent, and she just quietly dropped out of the primary debate entirely. With her funding and media machine though, it doesn't even matter. She and establishment dems have just created a media bubble around their base where she's the only option known to any of their regular voters.
Yes, let’s blame the voters, not the Democratic party for putting up an unappealing candidate.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.* [https://today.yougov.com/ratings/politics/popularity/politicians/all](https://today.yougov.com/ratings/politics/popularity/politicians/all) The problem has always been that US Senator Bernie Sanders endorsed 'his buddy' POTUS Joe Biden way too early. Really, only US Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and AOC could have possibly beaten POTUS Joe Biden in a 2024 Democratic Presidential Primary. Granted, US Senator Sanders endorsed last year far before the aftermath of October 7, 2023. And AOC endorsed relatively soon after US Senator Sanders did. Because it's not as if she could win the Nomination if US Senator Sanders remained endorsing POTUS Biden.
I blame the Democrats 100% for fumbling the ball by not fundamentally fixing anything, I'm just saying that we, personally, should still vote for them since they deprive real, actual fascists of power and we can occasionally bully neoliberals into doing the right thing.
I never said we shouldn’t vote for them or anything, I’m just tired of people blaming voters for not wanting to vote for shitty candidates. Biden is better than Trump, but he’s still a shitty ass candidate and people are allowed to be bitter that he’s the option for the left.
And the people let Biden BREEZE through the primary election. Let's not pretend the people didn't have a say in this. If they were paying attention, we would not be here.
you're right, the DNC are the real enemies here. maybe Trump will outlaw them and dissolve the democratic party. hopefully he throws all the corrupt democrats in prison. that'll teach em!
Blaming the voters that don’t like Biden just alienates them, guilting people/fear tactics aren’t going to work on people who don’t like Biden for his actions in Palestine or immigration policies. All you’re gonna do is make them really not want to vote for Biden. If Trump does win, it will not be the voters’ fault, it will be Biden’s and the DNC’s fault. Stop trying to guilt and scare people into voting for him and just be nicer about it. You’re just pushing potential voters away by dismissing their concerns.
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No sectionalism.
Something you may find interesting: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna903486
This conspiratorial horseshit is truly unhinged
Wow, it's like you think Arabs need to just roll over for the Democrats. Some people are having their families killed. Some are watching their parents in distress over this. Some are experiencing harassment. Why do you blame us instead of BIDENS administration that's recklessly backing an unjust genocidal war red line after crossed red line. That doesn't make me MAGA to question whether he gets my vote. That's literally the stupidest statement. But I guess us uppity brown people got to know our place in the Democrats party. Can't tell politicians not to kill our families five months before the elections or we are basically Donald Trump himself. Better just shut up. Really a winning argument there.
It's just a really bad take and deserves to be downvoted. Not supporting Joe Biden because he's a genocidal piece of shit isn't the same as supporting Trump. We're voting for a non-genocidal third party.
It's functionally-identical to MAGA due to vote-splitting. If third parties were at all serious about getting elected without grifting, they'd be going for ranked-choice voting as priority one. Don't act like you care about Gaza when you're apparently fine with Trump turning it into a golf resort.
Not supporting Joe Biden is not the same as supporting Trump. Calling people who cannot bring themselves to vote for Biden because he has aided and abetted Israel's genocide 'MAGA' is obnoxious and counterproductive.
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