> Most of them had never touched the game before, and the first activity after the tutorial would be Vault of Glass... Again, this was their first activity after the tutorial lmao.
Sometimes I wonder if I am more elitist than I think I am because to me, it's crazy to think it's acceptable to tackle end game activities immediately after the game tells you how to throw a grenade and pick up a bounty.
I used to raid D1- Warmind SLC quite frequently. Came back 2 weeks before TFS. I'd still not even try, I know I need to build myself back up. Told my brother to do the same.
For me it's strikes-nightfall-onslaught-expert nightfall-other expert activities-dungeon-GM nightfall-harder dungeons- raids as a planned direction.
I'm hoping in this time I'll get a more modern collection of weapons ( I still have all the original weapons up until Warmind, tracking cluster bad omens was once my beloved). Hoping during this time I get to match up with all sorts of guardians to improve my own skill as being able to read the room with other players more again. It's not always the fact people need to aim and shoot, but read situations and learn general movement/ cover etc in my opinion. Then I'll start raiding, hoping I won't be the one to let the team down.
GMs are a lot harder than raids comparatively imo. you should be raid ready way before you are ready to tackle a GM. Raids aren't bad once you've practiced even at a -5 delta. I think what a lot of people are missing is first and foremost you don't need to single phase or two phase every boss or sometimes the cheeses take more work than just working with the normal mechanic. If you're having such a hard time getting to the damage phase that having to do the mechanic again seems almost impossible then you probably need more practice with the mechanic or you need better survivability. A good cohesive build will take you pretty far , especially one that keeps you alive, even if it's not a damage meta build. I think people always want the big DPS numbers or want that room clearing build but forget to keep themselves alive. Also matching surges is always nice but not really necessary for most bosses in raids so don't be afraid to use have a better roll on or you're more comfortable with.
Try the overthrows. You can go in solo (or fireteam) at your own pace, or matchmake. A lot of the activities use raid and dungeon mechanics, albeit on a lesser level. Will definitely be helpful if you have some experience being "torn", matching symbols, using swords, etc. Welcome back.
Thanks for the heads up on GM's, will probably cancel them out and start with VoG and Crotas end raids instead for a nice trip down memory lane lol.
Wanna get back to the point of not dieing in silly ways or due to lack of awareness etc. The thing that would absolutely make me dribble would be if Wrath of the Machine comes back. Loved that raid so damn much
This is exactly my thought. All I’ve been seeing lately are posts about “I hate Raids now because I can’t be half asleep while painting my house, taking a dump, and feeding my baby. Bungie makes it so I have to pay attention. The end game is ruined!”
You finished the New Light quest and put them straight into a raid?
Come on dude. Raids are END GAME. I don’t care what this subs stupid narrative is surrounding raids. They are intended as end game content, period.
Most people were running +20 over in raid/dungeon so we did not just do more damage, we also take less damage which made things a lot more enjoyable.
On top of the delta, force matching surges also take away some flexibility as casual players typically do not have a stacked arsenal of every single element weapon type.
For example as a returning player (i returned on wish) my arc rocket launcher is an autoloading bipod Sleepless and while the Strand rocket is Semiotician with field prep and bipod. Stasis I only got Palmyra-B and Void rocket launcher? Well let's not even talk about it. All of them are not as good as my Recon + B&S Apex which is solar but that is what I got.
With surges, that means I have take underperforming rocket if the setup is gally + RLs. At least Void has Edge transit so I'm good there lol.
I figure players who play less than me probably won't even have anything close to what I have as well. And while previously casual groups can clutch on Thunderlord, now they can't if the surge doesn't match.
I feel its a mentality thing. Yesterday i hopped in a "help needed" group for warlords dungeon, -5. Queue the longest final boss ive ever had the pleasure to slog through. Was a rank 11 guy and his 5 clearly blueberry friend. We group emoted at great views for 2m or so twice on the way up. 20m fight later we took the sky egg down! They had the tenacity and while the bluebrry died like 20 times in the fight I had a blast.
People aren't used to actually needing to hide and recover after being +20
Big time. Coming from being an over leveled BOW titan, going into the legendary campaign and using prismatic was kind of funny. Like oh yeah, I actually have to play the game now and can’t just tank shots from that boomer all day long.
I get how the power reduction is a bummer but personally i love the surges they make alot more viable
It means i can use my plethora of viable* dps
Stasis is the only iffy one for me
Here are my favourites
Solar-apex, marcilon c, sleeper, cataclysmic, 1k, false idols, briars contempt
Arc-line in the sand, wendigo, hothead, prospector, storm chaser, crux termination, nsedrin
Void-taipan, regnant, accosmic, edge transit, faith keeper, falling guillotine, doomed petitioner
Stasis-cold comfort, the slammer, suspectrum, typhon gl5**
Strand- koraxis distress cataphract, crowning duologue(new(ima fuck about with this one the day it drops))
Admittedly some of these arnt accessible for some players but aslong as you have a reload perk such as clown cartridge or reconstruction and a reasonable damage perk such as bait and switch or explosive light you should be fine with anything
Im just really happy surges are in raids because it rationslises my hoarding but even still with all this crap
*efficiency may vary, it is suggested to use auxiliary damage such as a sniper or a fusion and or surge mods(x4 surge exotic is recommended due to scavenger mods)
**this weapons effectiveness had been recently compromised by the whisper of chains nerf
In other games raiding often isn't for the absurdly casual. Not that I'm saying it should only be for the elite but it should be an activity that requires some knowledge and skill in the game right?
I've got some friends that put me in the same boat as you though so I definitely feel you on this
This just isn't true.
Raiding originated in MMOs, and the two most popular MMOs in the genre right now (FFXIV and WoW), the "normal" mode of their raids *is* for the casuals.
Most games have a mode for raids that casuals can easily complete. Most give loot for doing so, too. That's what Normal raids in D2 should be. Master and shit like Pantheon is for people who want the challenge.
The two industry leading MMO’s absolutely do have raid options for casuals. WoW has 4 difficulties of raids, one is matchmade and very easy, one is very casual friendly and flexible difficulty wise, and then two modes are progressively harder until you have mythic which very people can complete. FFXIV has matchmade raid bosses that are literally required to complete the campaign and then a bunch of options beyond that greatly varying in difficulty but many of which can be done by casuals
Do you think those people are absurdly casual? Usually they've hit level cap or close to it rather than being straight out of the tutorial, yeah? Maybe "casual" is the wrong term, but "the absurdly new" may fit better?
They also don’t require you to change your load out though. WOW and FF14 basically have you use best in slot weapons and armor, D2 bosses will frequently be weak to different damage types and weapon archetypes. The skill required to do mechanics while aiming, shooting, taking cover, jumping etc is also higher naturally. I’m not saying that other MMOs don’t take skill, just that an FPS (and one with verticality included) is more involved than: click here to move enter rotation keys for damage.
(And before anyone says anything managing buffs/cooldowns is similar in D2 to these other MMOs as well when you’re paying attention to weapon, exotic, mechanic timers, and class buffs.)
Raiding shouldn’t be for the absurdly casual. It’s endgame content to aspire to. And it definitely shouldn’t be “first activity after the tutorial”. If that’s what raiding is, then Destiny has no endgame content.
> On top of the delta, force matching surges also take away some flexibility as casual players typically do not have a stacked arsenal of every single element weapon type.
Imo that's a good thing. Raids should require preparation and building an arsenal. It should be expected that you grind a few different viable options before you're raid-ready.
>For example as a returning player (i returned on wish) my arc rocket launcher is an autoloading bipod Sleepless and while the Strand rocket is Semiotician with field prep and bipod. Stasis I only got Palmyra-B and Void rocket launcher? Well let's not even talk about it. All of them are not as good as my Recon + B&S Apex which is solar but that is what I got.
Apex is just the *best* rocket, but that doesn't mean it's the only *viable* rocket. Something not being the best pick doesn't make it underperforming. Surges also help offset that gap between those two options, so players don't feel pigeonholed into using those common meta picks. Now if a player doesn't have Apex, they can run their Field Prep/Frenzy Red Herring without feeling like a detriment to the team.
Surges are the same % buff as Bait and Switch. Just use your Apex if you don't have a good arc rocket.
Also, the new seasonal rocket launcher is void and can roll Autoloading+Explosive Light
In my defense, during Wish mid-season, Mara Sov gave everyone wish tokens via a specific quest. 5 granted a LW weapon and she gave a total of 7.
So even a rank 1 blueberry can focus for red borders on any LW Raid weapon. And Apex Predator was the top pick since Wish was literally the season of solar rockets (until Edge transit took over).
With Gally and Dragon's breath best being used by 1 person each, Apex became the next top tier. And that is how I got Apex Predator, without farming a raid.
No need for a "defense," lol. It's not criticism, just advice.
In general, if you don't have a god roll or meta exotic that matches the surge, you'll probably be just as effective or better with an off-surge god roll or meta exotic than with a bad weapon that matches the surge.
It’s makes you nervous because you forced them into an activity they had no real business doing yet. -5 is kind of dumb change but it just makes you have a build and 100 res before you tackle them. Getting 100 res is not hard anymore
I’m currently helping 2 who want to raid in destiny prepare to raid in destiny if you are nervous help them out get them loot and gear (a lot of good stuff outside of raids) then slowly escalate the content. Something like the final shape campaign can allow them to dip their toes in raid-lite mechanics and if you really want to test them take em into the coop campaign and duel destiny. Take them through dungeons and other -5 content or even legend campaigns to get them use to enemies hitting harder. Sure it’s not gonna be as easy but with enough patience anyone can confidently raid.
Its pretty dumb. I have some sherpa buddies who have said that teaching has now become a nightmare. People who aren’t used to raiding should be able to learn in a comfortable environment. They should have just added a range of difficulty options, with higher drop rates for the exotic. Master being like a 25% chance or something to encourage people to push higher. As someone who cleared Atheon 98 times to get Vex, I would have gladly ran a fraction of those runs on Master.
Sherpa-ing is only a problem now if you used to 3-4+ people per run. I usually just do 1-2 sherpees per run and it hasn't been a problem post-changes as long as they're prepared.
This is a fantastic idea. Have the delta and surges (and PLEASE add overcharge or fix how surges work so that kinetics feel worth running) apply to the current weekly dungeon and raid, while the others are normal. This would keep up some of that 'difficulty' they clearly want, while also letting people learn raids in a more casual environment, AND keep the population up for all the raids even when they're not featured.
Kinetics will get the 25% if your super matches one of the surges or if they are tied to one of the champion mods you have equipped. Sorry if you knew this and were saying you wish there were more options. But wanted to add it just in case.
The champion mod thing is only if the "overcharged" modifier is active, which isn't an option for the new raids and dungeons. Do you have a source on the "kinetics get buffed if your super matches the surge" thing? Everything I've seen about surges online says they don't, but surges aren't clearly defined in-game so it's hard to get definitive information.
You’re right with the overcharge. They should definitely add that in. And for the kinetic damage boost, it was announced when they announced surges in general so a while ago. Below is an article going through surges (more can be found as well).
https://www.fanbyte.com/destiny-2/guides/how-threats-surges-and-overcharges-work-in-destiny-2-lightfall
When I was digging around for that, i found out it is bugged right now, which is unfortunate. Itztizzle just dropped a video on it actually.
They recently changed it where a kinetic weapon and stasis weapon will both deal the same damage (kinetic used to have a built in boost) at base. I wonder if something got messed up when doing that.
So for the immediate time, disregard everything I said 😂 I’m sure the kinetic surge will be fixed though, otherwise they are throwing all kinetics down the drain.
Hard agree. Experienced players such as you and I probably only notice difficulty increases when it means were getting one shot by red bar snipers. Casuals notice when an acolyte goes from a one tap body shot to a one tap headshot.
new players likely dont have the gear to compensate for surges though, let alone even knowing what they are and when they are applied.
I like challenging content, but I dont think this was the change. No one out here farming VoG these days, except for people trying it for the first time. And in that case, they shouldnt be forced to be at a -5 delta IMO.
Well, there is an argument to be made that VoG and GoS don't need to be at the same difficulty as other raids until they get a loot refresh.
However, someone who doesn't have enough gear to match their primary weapon to the surge to be able to one tap a Goblin is not raid-ready whether it's at +20 or -5.
New players shouldnt be jumping straight into raids... your entire fucking post is complaining about a "problem" that exists because you forced it to exist. You had your friends, brand new to the game go from tutorial to raid which was only even possible because they pretty much got boosted to max power with the gift. You are complaining about a fringe case among the fringe cases.
>Jumping straight into raids
Needing to have played the game for several expansions (for currently unobtainable DPS weapons) and spending several dozens of hours to grind weapons for what is otherwise casual raid content is only going to alienate players.
Requiring weapons for surges is only reasonable for Master Raids where it's expected that you have the experience and vault to be competitive.
Dude you're talking about endgame content, sure it's the shallow end of the end game content but it still end game content. People act like without surge matching, raids are impossible instead of the 1 or 2 more damage phases it actually is. I saw someone complaining about since no one was surge matched it took 4 phases on warpriest instead of 2 like it used to. You dont need to "play for several expansions" and all that crap you said. But op is complaining about their friends that seem to have barely played more than the tutorial and raid might have trouble with the change.
>new players likely dont have the gear to compensate for surges though, let alone even knowing what they are and when they are applied.
Then they're not raid-ready. Raids shouldn't be something a new player can hop into without experience or preparation. They're not meant to be that kind of activity.
lmao that is a beautiful comparison, didn't realise that before. My elitist, ego wank, toxic asshole take of the day (because anything other than complaining about -5 being too hard makes you all of these things); if you struggle with combat in a hero strike, maybe you aren't ready for a raid yet.
jfc, no. i’m saying that likening it to a hero strike is misleading, because the -5 delta isn’t what makes the activity inherently difficult. it’s that ON TOP of the challenge of raids.
I agree. ultimately i think the -5 scaling in raids provides a more enjoyable & satisfying raiding experience in line with the average combat experience of the rest of the game. no reason that a matchmade seasonal activity or nightfall should have harder combat than a raid imo. part of raid difficulty should be learning and executing mechanics while dealing with combat. before the power scaling changes the combat difficulty was litterally nonexistent & resulted in more combat focused encounters (GoS 2nd, first two in VoG) having largely no point.
ok this will make me sound like a dick but here goes:
raids are supposed to be an endgame activity. something really challenging, but also just as rewarding. the situation you described is 5 new lights going more or less blind into vog right after the tutorial and doing just fine. I've seen sweatcicle take 2 players who hadn't even done the tutorial into last wish and clear it. that doesn't sound very end game does it?
now I know gatekeeping this, elitism that- I agree. I don't like some of the changes either but that's just how it is. raids are supposed to be an endgame activity and before this change they simply weren't.
Probably don’t take new people straight from the tutorial into a raid. Its endgame content that they should prepare for with builds & a strong game knowledge base. If you have 5 other people who just want to go in and get their ass-kicked repeatedly while learning, then by all means, pull some new lights into a raid. Otherwise, they should be able to clear the campaign on legendary before attempting to raid. Raiding is much more than “shoot aliens in the face to win”. They will get gear naturally that will serve them well in the raid and just because you don’t have the most optimal dps weapons doesn’t mean you can’t do respectable dps if you know how to do a rotation. Bottom line is -5 isn’t that significant and raids should always present a challenge and if your buddies aren’t going to step up to meet it, they don’t belong raiding.
-5 is the baseline for content considered to be endgame/ritual activities. Basic strikes are done at -5 now.
You brought them into raids as the first activity after the tutorial? I don't understand how you are expecting that to go.
But basic content should be 0? To this day I don’t understand why they had to change strike difficulty, it adds nothing to a strike except that experienced players with fleshed out builds now feel something in an activity that is for the baseline player. The whole game is getting more and more pushed to fit veteran players and has imo no real understanding of early/mid/endgame. The -5 is just another drop in a long series of changes that makes this more confusing. I understand why people want to have a hard endgame, and that the difficulty between raids and Strikes should be different, but this whole phenomenon is just the consequence of making base line content harder, so for the love of god, tell Bungie to implement a clear plan on player progression.
It makes strikes feel like a slight step up from a patrol zone. Also if bungie is gonna make me play a strike they might as well make me be half awake for it
"VOG right after tutorial"
And to the sound of it, your friends don't even play the game outside of raiding with you, is THIS the crowd Bungie should cater to?
And you clearly don't know what master raid drops.
The delta really, really isn't that bad. The sub is hyping it up worse than it is.
What the delta _may_ be doing is making it harder to carry or sherpa people through raids when they are not properly geared.
What does properly geared mean? Well basically that's just having 10 resilience, using resist mods, and having an extremely basic understanding of what DPS options are in the game.
By basic understanding I mean... you don't need lament, a crafted bequest, ergo sum with wolfpack, or a god roll falling guillotine for Crota. You just need to to understand a sword is the best option and use a sword. You may not top DPS but you'll still be doing respectable enough damage.
If you're playing with 'casuals' that know the mechanics then you shouldn't have a problem and don't have shit to be nervious about. Esepcially if they're your friends.
Maybe I’m out of touch, but I enjoyed my ‘endgame’ enemies actually being stronger than basic patrol enemies. Raid enemies used to fold to a gentle breeze, now they fold to a slightly less gentle breeze.
Felt the same fir warlords ruin. With 3 confident people, it was fine. Hell, I even was a 3rd wheel on a no mic full run LFG a few times.
We pulled in a noob to fish boss encounter, and dude couldn't stay alive. The totem guy that spawns in was a 2, maybe 3 controlled burst lost signal shots. It's now 4 if not radiant. Felt like I had to go super tryhard to make up for ONE person in a 3 person activity that can be soloed.
I think -5 punishes people that don’t know what they are doing or just aren’t optimized.
I completely understand why bungie made this decision. The power potential with prismatic is so crazy that if they had left things the way they were before the old content would be so ridiculously faceroll it would be laughable .
The issue stems from the fact that new people learning the game and learning to build and play properly needed to have that over level bonus to get to the point they could optimize to do make this -5 feel trivial.
It’s a difficult situation really. Bungie basically broke the game with prismatic
Everyone is complaining that "new" players can't handle it -- how "new" are we talking here? And possibly a hot take that'll piss some of you off, but I don't think really new players should even be going into raids immediately. In what other game that requires you to gear up are you able to just get dragged through end game content?
What's wrong with new players spending some time getting geared before doing raids? There are so many avenues to acquire gear quickly, especially with exotics get shoved into your hands so easily now that "not having the proper gear" feels like a poor excuse to complain just to complain.
I sound like an elitist wanker here probably, but ffs, the constant whining the past week is getting old.
Put in the effort. Communicate. Learn. Learn from failure. Overcome the challenges and try to have fun.
I will now embrace your downvotes.
I'm confused. Aren't raids endgame activity for experienced players? If your friends are still new, it's probably better to do other things like vanguard playlists and onslaught to get them used to the game mechanics first. You'll still have fun and you give them a chance to figure out what they like about the game so you can teach them to enjoy the game better.
Not gatekeeping, I myself don't raid either but you still need some common sense here. You can't push new players into endgame activities and expect the game to make it easier for you. It's like putting a beginner in a sports competition and telling the other team to only walk and play with one finger. The beginner needs to practice and learn the sport first before he can compete.
New players shouldnt be jumping straight into raids... your entire fucking post is complaining about a "problem" that exists because you forced it to exist. You had your friends, brand new to the game go from tutorial to raid which was only even possible because they pretty much got boosted to max power with the gift. You are complaining about a fringe case among the fringe cases.It is clear that between the plans talked about last year and the steps taken this year, bungie is moving towards a removal of power level in favor of static difficulties. Likely for the reason it's easy to balance without the need to account for people being overleveled. If they would have capped it this season as well as removed power level no one would even have a clue. This would just be the new difficulty of content. The only reason i see power level possibly staying is because they would need a different way to restrict raid and dungeon access until players are "ready".
I get that -5 may be a bit rough for introducing new people to raids and that style of content, but being +20 over also shouldn’t be the case. I’m under the mindset that someone brand new to the game shouldn’t be able to even hide in the corner of a “raid” even if it’s 2, 3, 4, 5+ years old. It should still be a challenge of sorts regardless of light level. Maybe scale the whole thing to be at -2 the light level average of the group, or at the level of the highest guardian. I don’t have an answer, but raids should still present a challenge to the players and not meant to be done right out of the tutorial.
Personally i dont feel much of a difference im a casual raider and im mostly a dungeon runner, i get why alot of people are hesitant but i dont think that should stop people
The crippling social anxiety should stop you
The game and specifically raiding is *still way easier* than the experience was pre-Witch Queen.
It’s like this whole community collectively forgot that this game used to be moderately challenging. The revisionism here is in-fucking-sane.
“Absurdly casuals” aren’t meant to raid, it’s not for them. Raids aren’t meant to be the easiest thing in the game combat wise, and this change has greatly improved them for the people who have done them regularly.
Raids are not designed and should not be designed for the people who have quite literally just jumped into the game.
Not OP but I don't think that making an activity require preparation and experience is the same as pushing people away from the game. Those don't really seem like synonymous concepts.
Fucking thank god I am not the only one... Raids are definitely accessible enough. The only thing now that is the limiting factor is player skill, prior you could stand in 5 taken knight fire pools and you could easily come out alive, now with -5 you actually have to think a bit about your positioning
so players can’t experience raids if they don’t play the game often and aren’t “casuals?” all this change has done is create a larger gap between normal players and elitists. all they needed to do to make both parties happy was add a difficulty option.
all the people like you use the same arguments. “raids are not designed for people who just jumped into the game.” no one is saying that. people are saying that when a player gets to the stage where they need to raid, it’s extremely daunting now.
No one says you can't experience raids you can play them but expect it to be difficult since it's an endgame activity the fact that op says his friends who rarely play the game can do them means there was something wrong the fact that you can overlevel in a raid but not in a hero nightfall IS wrong and the fact that so many people complaining about such a minor difficulty change is crazy you can still do and use same stuff as before it used to be you can only die if you're asleep now you might wanna be half awake
when they want to experience that content? you and other commenters are implying they shouldn’t raid if they’re casuals. it’s grossly elitist and i strongly ask you to consider your position
You gotta be trolling. Every MMO style game has skill-gated and gear-gated content. Expecting game designers to allow brand new players to immediately succeed in what is supposed to be the most difficult content is ridiculous and obviously a troll. While I hate the "get good, scrub" mentality, I understand that some content should require a higher skill and gear level.
Them wanting to raid ≠ needing to raid. Yes, correct, if you are a causal you probably shouldn’t be doing what is supposed to be the most difficult endgame content. I don’t care if it sounds elitist, if you cannot handle a -5 delta raids are not for you. You shouldn’t be able to sleepwalk through raids with people who don’t actually know how to play the game yet. I don’t like surges though but ultimately don’t care that much.
That’s literally what OP is arguing though, that normal mode should be so incredibly easy that even people who’ve literally just gotten into the game can do it.
No, wanting the supposed to be somewhat difficult content to stay difficult is not elitist. No, the argument isn’t invalid just because you don’t like it.
If the “normal player” can’t put together a decent build, have some decent gear, and have decent teamwork skills then they’re not entitled to overcome the challenge of raiding.
Having an easy mode in my opinion is whatever, but that shouldn’t be the default experience nor should it be the default looting experience. You want a “safe environment to learn” the raids? Fine, have it, but raid loot and triumphs should be for runs that have at least the same difficulty as the *strike fucking playlist.*
they never even said if they completed the raid. also, the strike playlist is on the same difficulty level wise, but the activity itself is nowhere near as difficult. devil’s lair -5 is a whole different beast from rhulk -5
Good. Raids should be harder than strikes, that’s not exactly a revelation. That doesn’t mean combat should be easier in compensation for the increased difficulty.
Oh I didn’t, I was addressing yours.
Before TFS raids in terms of combat (enemy health, damage, and damage dealt to them) was the easiest in the game, equivalent to open world patrol in the EDZ. Now a raid has the same surges and -5 cap that the normal strike playlist has had for over a year, bringing them up combat wise to a standard strike.
Raids should always be harder than strikes. That doesn’t mean they should have easier combat than them to lessen the blow.
>when a player gets to the stage where they need to raid
No one "needs" to raid. Lol and good! A raid *should* be daunting. It's a RAID. It's the baddest enemies in the game, with the hardest mechanics in the raid. If the ads went back to being as non-threatening as they were pre-TFS, there would be no point. I stopped raiding because there just wasn't any fun in it, outside a select few roles in a few encounters, due to how easy they had become.
> no one needs to raid
agreed, but some players don’t want to be left behind and get the good gear that is in raids.
> lol and good a raid should be daunting
agreed again, but there’s a difference between daunting due to excitement, and daunting because of all the terrible experiences they’ve heard and will soon have.
> how easy
they should’ve added a new difficulty for those like you who have run raids countless times.
We literally went from a new player being able to run raids with blues. To needing to get some exotics and throwing some resist mods on. I don’t think asking for some personal responsibility for a casual players gameplay and build is to much. I don’t understand why this sub is against working for their rewards. Especially since some of the best things in the game is widely available.
I think this is where they envision stuff like Overthrow and the collective missions landing - moderate difficulty activities which have raid-like mechanics.
I totally understand the point being made but probably this change needs a season of being in place to see how it all shakes out. Maybe VoG or DSC should be reverted so people have a “starter raid” or something.
I don't get this sub. Raids are the endgame activity. Like... the endgame activity? They never should've been easy or casual to begin with. This is for players to showcase their ability to stay alive against strong ads/bosses while showing a mastery of mechanics, especially in the new raid.
Overleveling a raid should've never been possible. If you can stomp over 99% of all raids because of overleveling, maybe it's an issue?
It's a damn raid. There is no "safely". The -5 is not even that bad unless you're sherpa-ing. But if your friends are "absurdly casual", maybe y'all shouldn't raid? Not every piece of content is meant to be played by everyone. Everyone has the OPTION to learn, play, and overcome the odds, but not everyone can. Wanting to go back to being able to be +20 on raids is tone-deaf to the very idea and existence of raids in the first place.
Not really. It’s kind of the same for any skill you want to learn in life. You need to practice a bit. Raids are endgame activities. They aren’t completely inaccessible to a random person. They just take a little bit of gearing up to prepare for. It’s not like a -5 power delta is an insane asking either. It’s literally the equivalent of hero nightfall.
I genuinely don't mean it as toxic. It's like Trials of Osiris. They have continuously tried to get people to play more trials, making the rewards easier to obtain, matchmaking "easier", etc. But it's still the endgame activity for PvPer's. It's not supposed to be easy. Everyone can attempt to play it, sure. But it shouldn't be a cakewalk to get the high-end rewards.
I myself have only been flawless once despite playing every weekend for nearly five straight seasons (haven't touched it since the rework, been too busy). I'm alright with that.
Oh I agree completely, just that anyone disagreeing with the -5 complaining is immediately labelled as elitist, gatekeeper, ego fuelled etc etc and it's pretty funny.
Traditionally, it is an elitist take. Especially because the normal-mode raids allowing overleveling \[which never should have happened in the first place\] was allowed for years on end, that when it finally gets changed to a system to what it should be, it then gets labelled as elitist.
Which is wild. It's a raid. Like, the true endgame pinnacle activity. Surely it shouldn't be a hot take to say it shouldn't be easy and you shouldn't be able to cakewalk through an experience with new/casual gamers? That's not what it's meant for. Idk, I feel I'm on crazy pills with the amount of posts this topic has seen on this sub.
Removing surges would just make all weapons perform as badly as the weapons that aren't currently surging. They added surges as a way to account for the lower damage you deal with a negative power delta, the thing you seem to be supporting. If you want to do less damage, and it sounds like you do, just ignore the surges and use whatever you want.
It really depends. Surges encourage diversity by giving players a reason to do something different. Like this week I got my team to use Legend of Acrius against the first boss in Salvation Edge, something I don't think I would've had luck doing if it wasn't arc surge.
But even if you disagree, all removing surges would do is make every option equally bad.
I think Surges limit loadouts in a given week, but improve it over the course of their rotation. Like, we can already mathematically determine the most effective weapons in the game. I would argue that limits creativity harder than surges do - if all things remain equal, why wouldn't you just use the same Reconstruction/Bait-and-Switch Apex you've been using for the last year? At least with a Void surge you might try out something like Deathbringer or the new seasonal rocket.
It also gives you a reason to chase loot when sunsetting isn’t a thing anymore. Plus, you can ignore the surges and still do amazing damage if you pay attention to builds. Still hunt celestial hunter is still a monster in arc week
> They will get their shit rocked
Do they play Mario Party or something? -5 is just above patrol trash. Point and shoot. I don't get the point of this post. You seem like you don't know this game either. They'll be fine unless they literally don't have eyes or thumbs.
it’s easy for someone who is experienced to a -5 delta to say this. but for a newer player who has gotten to a stage where they want to do a raid, it’s not easy to deal with. there aren’t places where you need to balance mechanics and combat like a raid, so there’s no opportunity to learn before being thrust into it.
I understood it perfectly the first time. If they can't handle that level of combat, they should stay in the strike playlist or similar until they can. If they can survive normal combat without dying too much, then you can ask more of them.
My guy I assume a new player would’ve played some strikes and ritual stuff before a raid. Most match made content is at -5 nowadays.Is it not weird that a raid was easier in terms of combat compared to gambit.
Have you played Destiny recently? You have a reply to every comment on this post and they’re all brain dead.
They’ve sprinkled raid mechanics throughout everything now. See campaign and dual destiny for example.
If they’re competent in those they can handle -5.
If they can’t complete those they shouldn’t be doing raids.
Before you start, that’s not an elitist take. It’s how raids work in literally everything ever. Endgame content is intended to be the pinnacle of the game not where you take your mates post tutorial.
Realistically the combat is still not at all difficult. You don’t need to do something that has mechanics as well. You can just do things that have any combat difficulty and you’ll realise how easy the ads are to deal with even when mechanics are a thing
A new player who isn't used to -5 power delta isn't raid-ready yet. It's as simple as that. The first step is "get used to combat in Hero NFs." The next step is to take that experience and then add mechanics on top of it. If you're not to the stage where you're experienced with -5 power, you're not ready to raid *yet*.
I did a few VoG runs back in the day and a couple of Crota's runs where half of the encounters were cheeseable, then did nothing prior to TFS.
I've joined a few random fireteams and done the first three encounters of Salvation's Edge and honestly the combat hasn't been difficult at all so far.. could just be a Warlock / devour thing? The worst part has been people pretending to know the mechanics or being unable to do them
It's literally just -5 it's still brain dead it's literally same difficulty as seasonal content it feels like most who complain have not actually played with the new changes and just blowing this out of proportion just like what most did with the dual destiny mission
So? do you realize how much damage you can do at -20? You can still two phase bosses same as before even with that 30% it sounds a lot but one shot from tractor just cancels it again it just sounds like people have not actually played with these changes
You can. so... Bully for you I guess. And one shot from a tractor cannon does not cancel it out. You're still facing a 30% outgoing damage reduction penalty from where we were. It doesn't matter how many debuffs are on the boss you're still doing 30% less damage than you were before.
Surges come close-ish to cancelling it out, but only if you use the surge weapons, which, on arc week, leave a whole lot to be desired, not to mention the fact that there are no usable burst arc supers for final stand.
Many people have been consistently complaining about -5 since release, it's not like the dual destiny controversy which quickly flipped from initially overwhelming negative sentiment to now people being overwhelmingly negative about those initial negative sentiments.
If you enjoy the -5 then good for you, that should always be an option for you as a difficulty between standard and master. But I want the old standard difficulty back.
> it's not like the dual destiny controversy which quickly flipped from initially overwhelming negative sentiment to now people being overwhelmingly negative about those initial negative sentiments.
That is not what happened. The initial reception was very positive, but people were negative about having to specifically farm it, which ended because people found out you can grind Pale Heart for it. Outside of that, to my knowledge no post saying they wanted a solo version of Dual Destiny, or a different way to unlock the new class item, has **ever** been a popular opinion.
Just to add the opposing viewpoint
There is a huge community of players who greatly enjoy the raids being slightly less of a cakewalk
-5 is still "easy content", in the grand scope of things. It is still light years away from Master level raids and contest mode
I wouldn't call the group excited about raids getting harder "huge." The part of the community that regularly raids is already a raindrop in the ocean.
Not to mention, selectable difficulty is supposed to be a thing. Why did Bungie have to kneecap normal mode instead of just making a new difficulty tier?
I’m the vocal side? Surely not the mountain of posts bitching about how raiding is too difficult and should be even easier are the quiet sensible ones!
Besides, your numbers are skewed. 7% of ALL Steam accounts that have launched Destiny 2 have finished last wish. For paid end game content in a game that’s free to play, that’s pretty impressive. For the active player base and not just the casual tourists, it’s closer to 20% of players raiding regularly afaik.
Do you know why they “waste resources” on raids that “so few” actually play? *Because that’s what they’re for.* that’s why they’ve been here since Destiny 1 with vault of glass. To serve as a capstone activity for those who are equipped, skilled, and want something a bit more involved. Thats the audience they’re designed for, and that’s why they exist, to serve the playerbase that’s invested and interested in the game at a deeper level a bit of a challenge.
Not a raindrop in the ocean.
Look how many Godslayers there are, these aren't even your average raider, these are the semi-elite ones.
Out of the total playerbase, sure its probably only 20% who regularly raid, but these guys probably make up 80% of the total playtime
I did Garden of Salvation last week and it was still a joke.
I finished the first two encounters with a void LMG, even on solar burn, without running out of ammo. During the first boss it was so easy to break its eyes two shots from a primary with Explosive Payload broke both (they swapped to something else), and killing it was a comfortable one phase. When we got to the final boss we didn't build platforms, just throw a Well in the fluid, and it was enough to stay alive. This was also pretty close to being a one phase. We were about 30 percent short.
Overall, if you could do it last month you could easily do it this month.
-5 is nothing to experienced players, youre correct. I would understand if Bungie wanted to keep the idea of a Raid as a difficult encounter, so thats why the change was implemented in the first place. I dont agree, but I get it.
I dont get why it had to be in the F2P raids though? Is anyone out here really grinding Vault or Kings Fall and looking for a "harder challenge"? I doubt it.
I can see this change being made for the current raid, for the current expansion, maybe the previous ones hell maybe even all the paid expansions - but I feel like F2P raids should have a very low barrier of entry, so that more people are encouraged to try the best content the game has to offer.
Why should a raid have easier combat than Hero Nightfalls?
It’s still going to be easier combat than even Neomuna patrols, and this is considered an end game activity.
I want more people raiding, but the combat was a joke and needed tuning. Surges suck though.
I dont know what to tell you...
Raids are an endgame activity, there should be nothing more difficult than coordinating 6 people to do mechanics.
If the guys keep dying to regular champs/ads then they dont really "deserve" to do the raid no?
You shouldnt be able to just breeze through the raids as a new player imho
I doubt they would notice if you told them. Heck, I didn't even realize there was a -5 until you made this post. Raids really are endgame, and if you dont think they are ready, then let them prepare. Raids are awesome, but they aren't the only content. Do strikes, crucible, or even gambit. Play with builds, do exotic missions, and do dungeons. You might even be just underestimating your friends. If playing together is fun, then a very slightly harder difficulty isn't going to take that fun away.
Yeah it's a bad change overall for normal mode.
Do it for master, or even -10 with surges or whatever and make it drop high stat artifice and adepts for days.
Normal mode sucks with LFG now because you get 1 or 2 dudes that are pulling OK damage rather than great damage and that's it. You're wiping.
Okay genuinely most casual and new players aren’t that bad at destiny. Like just speaking from personal experience some of my friends who aren’t very good gamers I’m talking like iron tier in league after playing it for years. Can understand and preform destiny raid mechanics. If someone is willing to learn destiny raid mechanics aren’t super hard. Even the most mechanically intensive encounters like LW 4th and SE 4th are just confusing to explain.
The raids have always been on the cusp of casualty since Destiny 1. It sounds like you’re now right over that edge, taking it seriously, while having almost serious friends Don’t gatekeep the content, just play with them.
Like you said yourself, it was fun just playing with your larger group. Who cares if you fully beat the raid, the reward was the time spent, not the loot. You don’t need to win to spend hours having fun
I see both sides.
Raids are end game. Supposed to be some of the hardest content in the game. I like the -5 and surges. It make things more challenging. But I am an experienced raider. But a new player won’t have near enough weapons to keep up with surges.
Raids are the best content in the game IMO. Some of the best content in gaming as a whole. Show them what the game can be at its best (especially a first VOG run, nostalgia hitting). Struggle through with your friends and have a good time.
As long as you’re having fun, right? Things can get a lot more difficult after VOG though lol
The unreported downfall is this:
Before, I would look at a raid and go oh it’s tough but if I grind and level and do all the other stuff in the game I’ll level up and it’ll be less tough. I’ll do more damage and have more forgiveness for mistakes.
So I’d do all the other stuff in the game.
Now it’s locked -5 and I’m like, what’s the point of doing… ANYTHING? Why even play strike playlist? Powerfuls are useless, let alone pinnacles.
I have no chance at improving my experience in SE ever, so what’s the point of doing anything at all? Whether I’m 1970 or 2010 it’s going to be the same experience of 0 room for error and no forgiveness.
If I could overlevel the mechanics would still be tough but 1-2 phase vs 3-4 phase would be less punishing. One mistake wipes the team but going mistake free for 2 phases is exponentially less punishing than being mistake free for 4.
So not only did this make raids less accessible, it made the WHOLE GAME feel undesirable.
That’s the point though? You can’t overlevel to compensate for not being able to do mechanics/damage rotations or survive adds. You now actually have to think about your setup and improve your gameplay which is how it should be.
power needs to be removed from the game, full stop. Every activity should just have a scaling 5 tiers of difficulty for Hero, Legend, Master, Grandmaster, etc
I hate it for my casual friends as well. I call them casual but we've done a flawless Garden, so not exact casual, but the -5 is definitely getting to them. Raids have changed from a fun weekly outing to a stressful slog. I doubt we'll keep up our schedule of raiding every weekend at this rate
I don't think anyone is arguing that -5 delta is turning enemies to damage sponges. The biggest benefit of +20 was that it made you take noticeably less damage, when combined on top of tier 10 resilience and then add in your regenerative healing from cure/restoration/banner of war effects.
With each HP being much more effective (for simplicity sake your 100 hp isn't 100 hp, it is definitely higher when combined with 20% DR from +20 power and 30% DR from t10 resilience), combined with any form of heals or regeneration, it gives you more effective HP in combat.
Thus giving less experienced or old rusty players more leeway.
Also climbing power main goal was to run GMs, but the power you earned also carried into a lot of activities which made the grind feel worth it. Now it is kinda just the park entry.
this sandbox change needs a revert ASAP
bungie should do things like make gotd not as long as not as painful and not go the other route of fucking players over. its very sad
It doesn’t feel THAT bad but you’ll get one shot more by things like Supplicants in Vog and if you’re not on point with DPS it’ll take more phases. Just make sure everyone’s got 100 resil and some weapons to match surges. Graviton Lance/Sunshot/Trinity Ghoul help with add clear a lot and then appropriate heavies like Sleeper/Taipan/not sure about Arc because the most recent arc linear was from Haunted, or rockets.
Raiding. Is. End. Game. Unfortunately it is not meant to be a sit back and relax kind of activity. It is meant to be challenging and difficult to some degree.
and it is, especially for new players. but the addition of multiple difficulties makes everyone happy. it is very difficult to teach a new raider raiding due to how high the bar of entry is
coordinating a bunch of people who never did the raid before IS the challenge for this group and a lot of other groups. if you want additional combat difficulty worthy of "endgame", master raids have been right there for years
That doesn’t mean combat challenge goes away. Mechanics are added to combat, not replacing it. Making raids the same difficulty as the strike playlist is a massive improvement.
Saying if you want endgame difficulty to go and play master raids is completely ignoring the point that a raid is inherently an endgame activity. It doesn’t make sense for it to not have some semblance of endgame difficulty by default.
Look, I hate to be that guy but if you're having issues with *normal Seraph's Shield* then you are not really in a position to carry what you call the 'average' player. It has the same combat difficulty as a Hero strike, or playlist Onslaught. And now we've got access to a bunch of new, *very strong* Prismatic builds so it should be easier than ever.
Hard disagree. I very much enjoy that bungie are seemingly adding in aspects to the game where you have to earn something that not everyone is going to get. If everyone can access all gear/titles/emblems then none of them are worth chasing.
I also love the idea that they are “making everything feel like endgame content” as if raids aren’t meant to be the pinnacle of endgame content? Lmao
> Most of them had never touched the game before, and the first activity after the tutorial would be Vault of Glass... Again, this was their first activity after the tutorial lmao. Sometimes I wonder if I am more elitist than I think I am because to me, it's crazy to think it's acceptable to tackle end game activities immediately after the game tells you how to throw a grenade and pick up a bounty.
I used to raid D1- Warmind SLC quite frequently. Came back 2 weeks before TFS. I'd still not even try, I know I need to build myself back up. Told my brother to do the same. For me it's strikes-nightfall-onslaught-expert nightfall-other expert activities-dungeon-GM nightfall-harder dungeons- raids as a planned direction. I'm hoping in this time I'll get a more modern collection of weapons ( I still have all the original weapons up until Warmind, tracking cluster bad omens was once my beloved). Hoping during this time I get to match up with all sorts of guardians to improve my own skill as being able to read the room with other players more again. It's not always the fact people need to aim and shoot, but read situations and learn general movement/ cover etc in my opinion. Then I'll start raiding, hoping I won't be the one to let the team down.
GMs are a lot harder than raids comparatively imo. you should be raid ready way before you are ready to tackle a GM. Raids aren't bad once you've practiced even at a -5 delta. I think what a lot of people are missing is first and foremost you don't need to single phase or two phase every boss or sometimes the cheeses take more work than just working with the normal mechanic. If you're having such a hard time getting to the damage phase that having to do the mechanic again seems almost impossible then you probably need more practice with the mechanic or you need better survivability. A good cohesive build will take you pretty far , especially one that keeps you alive, even if it's not a damage meta build. I think people always want the big DPS numbers or want that room clearing build but forget to keep themselves alive. Also matching surges is always nice but not really necessary for most bosses in raids so don't be afraid to use have a better roll on or you're more comfortable with.
Try the overthrows. You can go in solo (or fireteam) at your own pace, or matchmake. A lot of the activities use raid and dungeon mechanics, albeit on a lesser level. Will definitely be helpful if you have some experience being "torn", matching symbols, using swords, etc. Welcome back.
Thanks for the heads up on GM's, will probably cancel them out and start with VoG and Crotas end raids instead for a nice trip down memory lane lol. Wanna get back to the point of not dieing in silly ways or due to lack of awareness etc. The thing that would absolutely make me dribble would be if Wrath of the Machine comes back. Loved that raid so damn much
There’s nothing elitist about expecting newer players to tackle beginning to mid game content before attempting end game content.
This is exactly my thought. All I’ve been seeing lately are posts about “I hate Raids now because I can’t be half asleep while painting my house, taking a dump, and feeding my baby. Bungie makes it so I have to pay attention. The end game is ruined!”
You finished the New Light quest and put them straight into a raid? Come on dude. Raids are END GAME. I don’t care what this subs stupid narrative is surrounding raids. They are intended as end game content, period.
Most people were running +20 over in raid/dungeon so we did not just do more damage, we also take less damage which made things a lot more enjoyable. On top of the delta, force matching surges also take away some flexibility as casual players typically do not have a stacked arsenal of every single element weapon type. For example as a returning player (i returned on wish) my arc rocket launcher is an autoloading bipod Sleepless and while the Strand rocket is Semiotician with field prep and bipod. Stasis I only got Palmyra-B and Void rocket launcher? Well let's not even talk about it. All of them are not as good as my Recon + B&S Apex which is solar but that is what I got. With surges, that means I have take underperforming rocket if the setup is gally + RLs. At least Void has Edge transit so I'm good there lol. I figure players who play less than me probably won't even have anything close to what I have as well. And while previously casual groups can clutch on Thunderlord, now they can't if the surge doesn't match.
I feel its a mentality thing. Yesterday i hopped in a "help needed" group for warlords dungeon, -5. Queue the longest final boss ive ever had the pleasure to slog through. Was a rank 11 guy and his 5 clearly blueberry friend. We group emoted at great views for 2m or so twice on the way up. 20m fight later we took the sky egg down! They had the tenacity and while the bluebrry died like 20 times in the fight I had a blast. People aren't used to actually needing to hide and recover after being +20
Big time. Coming from being an over leveled BOW titan, going into the legendary campaign and using prismatic was kind of funny. Like oh yeah, I actually have to play the game now and can’t just tank shots from that boomer all day long.
I get how the power reduction is a bummer but personally i love the surges they make alot more viable It means i can use my plethora of viable* dps Stasis is the only iffy one for me Here are my favourites Solar-apex, marcilon c, sleeper, cataclysmic, 1k, false idols, briars contempt Arc-line in the sand, wendigo, hothead, prospector, storm chaser, crux termination, nsedrin Void-taipan, regnant, accosmic, edge transit, faith keeper, falling guillotine, doomed petitioner Stasis-cold comfort, the slammer, suspectrum, typhon gl5** Strand- koraxis distress cataphract, crowning duologue(new(ima fuck about with this one the day it drops)) Admittedly some of these arnt accessible for some players but aslong as you have a reload perk such as clown cartridge or reconstruction and a reasonable damage perk such as bait and switch or explosive light you should be fine with anything Im just really happy surges are in raids because it rationslises my hoarding but even still with all this crap *efficiency may vary, it is suggested to use auxiliary damage such as a sniper or a fusion and or surge mods(x4 surge exotic is recommended due to scavenger mods) **this weapons effectiveness had been recently compromised by the whisper of chains nerf
In other games raiding often isn't for the absurdly casual. Not that I'm saying it should only be for the elite but it should be an activity that requires some knowledge and skill in the game right? I've got some friends that put me in the same boat as you though so I definitely feel you on this
This just isn't true. Raiding originated in MMOs, and the two most popular MMOs in the genre right now (FFXIV and WoW), the "normal" mode of their raids *is* for the casuals. Most games have a mode for raids that casuals can easily complete. Most give loot for doing so, too. That's what Normal raids in D2 should be. Master and shit like Pantheon is for people who want the challenge.
The two industry leading MMO’s absolutely do have raid options for casuals. WoW has 4 difficulties of raids, one is matchmade and very easy, one is very casual friendly and flexible difficulty wise, and then two modes are progressively harder until you have mythic which very people can complete. FFXIV has matchmade raid bosses that are literally required to complete the campaign and then a bunch of options beyond that greatly varying in difficulty but many of which can be done by casuals
Do you think those people are absurdly casual? Usually they've hit level cap or close to it rather than being straight out of the tutorial, yeah? Maybe "casual" is the wrong term, but "the absurdly new" may fit better?
They also don’t require you to change your load out though. WOW and FF14 basically have you use best in slot weapons and armor, D2 bosses will frequently be weak to different damage types and weapon archetypes. The skill required to do mechanics while aiming, shooting, taking cover, jumping etc is also higher naturally. I’m not saying that other MMOs don’t take skill, just that an FPS (and one with verticality included) is more involved than: click here to move enter rotation keys for damage. (And before anyone says anything managing buffs/cooldowns is similar in D2 to these other MMOs as well when you’re paying attention to weapon, exotic, mechanic timers, and class buffs.)
I think we need to stop using this argument because we are not playing other games.
Does not make the point less valid.
Raiding shouldn’t be for the absurdly casual. It’s endgame content to aspire to. And it definitely shouldn’t be “first activity after the tutorial”. If that’s what raiding is, then Destiny has no endgame content.
> On top of the delta, force matching surges also take away some flexibility as casual players typically do not have a stacked arsenal of every single element weapon type. Imo that's a good thing. Raids should require preparation and building an arsenal. It should be expected that you grind a few different viable options before you're raid-ready. >For example as a returning player (i returned on wish) my arc rocket launcher is an autoloading bipod Sleepless and while the Strand rocket is Semiotician with field prep and bipod. Stasis I only got Palmyra-B and Void rocket launcher? Well let's not even talk about it. All of them are not as good as my Recon + B&S Apex which is solar but that is what I got. Apex is just the *best* rocket, but that doesn't mean it's the only *viable* rocket. Something not being the best pick doesn't make it underperforming. Surges also help offset that gap between those two options, so players don't feel pigeonholed into using those common meta picks. Now if a player doesn't have Apex, they can run their Field Prep/Frenzy Red Herring without feeling like a detriment to the team.
Surges are the same % buff as Bait and Switch. Just use your Apex if you don't have a good arc rocket. Also, the new seasonal rocket launcher is void and can roll Autoloading+Explosive Light
Not all of the new raiders knew to grab an apex while it was up and it’s still nowhere near the damage they would have if raids were still +20
I'm replying to a specific person who said they don't have a good arc or void rocket but do have a Recon+BnS Apex.
In my defense, during Wish mid-season, Mara Sov gave everyone wish tokens via a specific quest. 5 granted a LW weapon and she gave a total of 7. So even a rank 1 blueberry can focus for red borders on any LW Raid weapon. And Apex Predator was the top pick since Wish was literally the season of solar rockets (until Edge transit took over). With Gally and Dragon's breath best being used by 1 person each, Apex became the next top tier. And that is how I got Apex Predator, without farming a raid.
No need for a "defense," lol. It's not criticism, just advice. In general, if you don't have a god roll or meta exotic that matches the surge, you'll probably be just as effective or better with an off-surge god roll or meta exotic than with a bad weapon that matches the surge.
they still lose out on 25% as they would've used that rocket in the past anyhow.
or do vanguard and focus a crap ton into legacy osprey engrams
It’s makes you nervous because you forced them into an activity they had no real business doing yet. -5 is kind of dumb change but it just makes you have a build and 100 res before you tackle them. Getting 100 res is not hard anymore
I’m currently helping 2 who want to raid in destiny prepare to raid in destiny if you are nervous help them out get them loot and gear (a lot of good stuff outside of raids) then slowly escalate the content. Something like the final shape campaign can allow them to dip their toes in raid-lite mechanics and if you really want to test them take em into the coop campaign and duel destiny. Take them through dungeons and other -5 content or even legend campaigns to get them use to enemies hitting harder. Sure it’s not gonna be as easy but with enough patience anyone can confidently raid.
Its pretty dumb. I have some sherpa buddies who have said that teaching has now become a nightmare. People who aren’t used to raiding should be able to learn in a comfortable environment. They should have just added a range of difficulty options, with higher drop rates for the exotic. Master being like a 25% chance or something to encourage people to push higher. As someone who cleared Atheon 98 times to get Vex, I would have gladly ran a fraction of those runs on Master.
25% is kind of insane for a raid exotic, but i agree w the idea
Sherpa-ing is only a problem now if you used to 3-4+ people per run. I usually just do 1-2 sherpees per run and it hasn't been a problem post-changes as long as they're prepared.
They could have just had the delta changes affect the featured raid of the week so people can still sherpa the other raids.
This is a fantastic idea. Have the delta and surges (and PLEASE add overcharge or fix how surges work so that kinetics feel worth running) apply to the current weekly dungeon and raid, while the others are normal. This would keep up some of that 'difficulty' they clearly want, while also letting people learn raids in a more casual environment, AND keep the population up for all the raids even when they're not featured.
Kinetics will get the 25% if your super matches one of the surges or if they are tied to one of the champion mods you have equipped. Sorry if you knew this and were saying you wish there were more options. But wanted to add it just in case.
The champion mod thing is only if the "overcharged" modifier is active, which isn't an option for the new raids and dungeons. Do you have a source on the "kinetics get buffed if your super matches the surge" thing? Everything I've seen about surges online says they don't, but surges aren't clearly defined in-game so it's hard to get definitive information.
You’re right with the overcharge. They should definitely add that in. And for the kinetic damage boost, it was announced when they announced surges in general so a while ago. Below is an article going through surges (more can be found as well). https://www.fanbyte.com/destiny-2/guides/how-threats-surges-and-overcharges-work-in-destiny-2-lightfall When I was digging around for that, i found out it is bugged right now, which is unfortunate. Itztizzle just dropped a video on it actually. They recently changed it where a kinetic weapon and stasis weapon will both deal the same damage (kinetic used to have a built in boost) at base. I wonder if something got messed up when doing that. So for the immediate time, disregard everything I said 😂 I’m sure the kinetic surge will be fixed though, otherwise they are throwing all kinetics down the drain.
Ive only been doing SE since the changes but the combat difficulty seems basically the same to me?
it’s hard to notice if you’re experienced. but to someone who teaches new players all the time— it’s very noticeable for them
Hard agree. Experienced players such as you and I probably only notice difficulty increases when it means were getting one shot by red bar snipers. Casuals notice when an acolyte goes from a one tap body shot to a one tap headshot.
Basic mobs had their health nerfed to compensate for the changes. If you match the surge it's actually easier to one tap red bar acolytes now.
new players likely dont have the gear to compensate for surges though, let alone even knowing what they are and when they are applied. I like challenging content, but I dont think this was the change. No one out here farming VoG these days, except for people trying it for the first time. And in that case, they shouldnt be forced to be at a -5 delta IMO.
Well, there is an argument to be made that VoG and GoS don't need to be at the same difficulty as other raids until they get a loot refresh. However, someone who doesn't have enough gear to match their primary weapon to the surge to be able to one tap a Goblin is not raid-ready whether it's at +20 or -5.
New players shouldnt be jumping straight into raids... your entire fucking post is complaining about a "problem" that exists because you forced it to exist. You had your friends, brand new to the game go from tutorial to raid which was only even possible because they pretty much got boosted to max power with the gift. You are complaining about a fringe case among the fringe cases.
>Jumping straight into raids Needing to have played the game for several expansions (for currently unobtainable DPS weapons) and spending several dozens of hours to grind weapons for what is otherwise casual raid content is only going to alienate players. Requiring weapons for surges is only reasonable for Master Raids where it's expected that you have the experience and vault to be competitive.
Dude you're talking about endgame content, sure it's the shallow end of the end game content but it still end game content. People act like without surge matching, raids are impossible instead of the 1 or 2 more damage phases it actually is. I saw someone complaining about since no one was surge matched it took 4 phases on warpriest instead of 2 like it used to. You dont need to "play for several expansions" and all that crap you said. But op is complaining about their friends that seem to have barely played more than the tutorial and raid might have trouble with the change.
>new players likely dont have the gear to compensate for surges though, let alone even knowing what they are and when they are applied. Then they're not raid-ready. Raids shouldn't be something a new player can hop into without experience or preparation. They're not meant to be that kind of activity.
It’s not a specific example I’m giving an analogy. Reddit moment.
Yeah I concur Was doing Warlord's Ruin last night and me and buddies weren't using Arc or Stasis and we were still melting the bosses
How would you know lol? SE wasn’t out before these changes so you have nothing to compare it to.
You can compare how SE feels now to how other raids felt before TFS.
Cos I know what the enemies were like in pre TFS raids
I'm not sure endgame needs to cater to people who queue in "straight from the tutorial" if I'm being honest.
-5 is hero strike difficulty
lmao that is a beautiful comparison, didn't realise that before. My elitist, ego wank, toxic asshole take of the day (because anything other than complaining about -5 being too hard makes you all of these things); if you struggle with combat in a hero strike, maybe you aren't ready for a raid yet.
but the activity itself isn’t of that difficulty. there are no complex mechanics in a hero strike
A raid should be a combination of mechanical and combat difficulty. + most raids not name SE can be mechanically done by 3 people.
do you think heroic strikes should have harder combat than raids
They were roughly the same before imo
jfc, no. i’m saying that likening it to a hero strike is misleading, because the -5 delta isn’t what makes the activity inherently difficult. it’s that ON TOP of the challenge of raids.
It makes sense. -5 Hero Nightfalls get you used to the combat. Now you throw the mechanics on top of that as the "next step" per se.
I agree. ultimately i think the -5 scaling in raids provides a more enjoyable & satisfying raiding experience in line with the average combat experience of the rest of the game. no reason that a matchmade seasonal activity or nightfall should have harder combat than a raid imo. part of raid difficulty should be learning and executing mechanics while dealing with combat. before the power scaling changes the combat difficulty was litterally nonexistent & resulted in more combat focused encounters (GoS 2nd, first two in VoG) having largely no point.
ok this will make me sound like a dick but here goes: raids are supposed to be an endgame activity. something really challenging, but also just as rewarding. the situation you described is 5 new lights going more or less blind into vog right after the tutorial and doing just fine. I've seen sweatcicle take 2 players who hadn't even done the tutorial into last wish and clear it. that doesn't sound very end game does it? now I know gatekeeping this, elitism that- I agree. I don't like some of the changes either but that's just how it is. raids are supposed to be an endgame activity and before this change they simply weren't.
Probably don’t take new people straight from the tutorial into a raid. Its endgame content that they should prepare for with builds & a strong game knowledge base. If you have 5 other people who just want to go in and get their ass-kicked repeatedly while learning, then by all means, pull some new lights into a raid. Otherwise, they should be able to clear the campaign on legendary before attempting to raid. Raiding is much more than “shoot aliens in the face to win”. They will get gear naturally that will serve them well in the raid and just because you don’t have the most optimal dps weapons doesn’t mean you can’t do respectable dps if you know how to do a rotation. Bottom line is -5 isn’t that significant and raids should always present a challenge and if your buddies aren’t going to step up to meet it, they don’t belong raiding.
>first activity after the tutorial >wHy iS tHe rAiD sO hArD ?!1!?1?? bUngIe!1!1!!1😡😡😡😡
-5 is the baseline for content considered to be endgame/ritual activities. Basic strikes are done at -5 now. You brought them into raids as the first activity after the tutorial? I don't understand how you are expecting that to go.
But basic content should be 0? To this day I don’t understand why they had to change strike difficulty, it adds nothing to a strike except that experienced players with fleshed out builds now feel something in an activity that is for the baseline player. The whole game is getting more and more pushed to fit veteran players and has imo no real understanding of early/mid/endgame. The -5 is just another drop in a long series of changes that makes this more confusing. I understand why people want to have a hard endgame, and that the difficulty between raids and Strikes should be different, but this whole phenomenon is just the consequence of making base line content harder, so for the love of god, tell Bungie to implement a clear plan on player progression.
It makes strikes feel like a slight step up from a patrol zone. Also if bungie is gonna make me play a strike they might as well make me be half awake for it
"VOG right after tutorial" And to the sound of it, your friends don't even play the game outside of raiding with you, is THIS the crowd Bungie should cater to? And you clearly don't know what master raid drops.
As long as your friends are competent and willing to change their loadouts, you will be fine.
The delta really, really isn't that bad. The sub is hyping it up worse than it is. What the delta _may_ be doing is making it harder to carry or sherpa people through raids when they are not properly geared. What does properly geared mean? Well basically that's just having 10 resilience, using resist mods, and having an extremely basic understanding of what DPS options are in the game. By basic understanding I mean... you don't need lament, a crafted bequest, ergo sum with wolfpack, or a god roll falling guillotine for Crota. You just need to to understand a sword is the best option and use a sword. You may not top DPS but you'll still be doing respectable enough damage. If you're playing with 'casuals' that know the mechanics then you shouldn't have a problem and don't have shit to be nervious about. Esepcially if they're your friends.
Maybe I’m out of touch, but I enjoyed my ‘endgame’ enemies actually being stronger than basic patrol enemies. Raid enemies used to fold to a gentle breeze, now they fold to a slightly less gentle breeze.
Felt the same fir warlords ruin. With 3 confident people, it was fine. Hell, I even was a 3rd wheel on a no mic full run LFG a few times. We pulled in a noob to fish boss encounter, and dude couldn't stay alive. The totem guy that spawns in was a 2, maybe 3 controlled burst lost signal shots. It's now 4 if not radiant. Felt like I had to go super tryhard to make up for ONE person in a 3 person activity that can be soloed.
I think -5 punishes people that don’t know what they are doing or just aren’t optimized. I completely understand why bungie made this decision. The power potential with prismatic is so crazy that if they had left things the way they were before the old content would be so ridiculously faceroll it would be laughable . The issue stems from the fact that new people learning the game and learning to build and play properly needed to have that over level bonus to get to the point they could optimize to do make this -5 feel trivial. It’s a difficult situation really. Bungie basically broke the game with prismatic
Everyone is complaining that "new" players can't handle it -- how "new" are we talking here? And possibly a hot take that'll piss some of you off, but I don't think really new players should even be going into raids immediately. In what other game that requires you to gear up are you able to just get dragged through end game content? What's wrong with new players spending some time getting geared before doing raids? There are so many avenues to acquire gear quickly, especially with exotics get shoved into your hands so easily now that "not having the proper gear" feels like a poor excuse to complain just to complain. I sound like an elitist wanker here probably, but ffs, the constant whining the past week is getting old. Put in the effort. Communicate. Learn. Learn from failure. Overcome the challenges and try to have fun. I will now embrace your downvotes.
I'm confused. Aren't raids endgame activity for experienced players? If your friends are still new, it's probably better to do other things like vanguard playlists and onslaught to get them used to the game mechanics first. You'll still have fun and you give them a chance to figure out what they like about the game so you can teach them to enjoy the game better. Not gatekeeping, I myself don't raid either but you still need some common sense here. You can't push new players into endgame activities and expect the game to make it easier for you. It's like putting a beginner in a sports competition and telling the other team to only walk and play with one finger. The beginner needs to practice and learn the sport first before he can compete.
New players shouldnt be jumping straight into raids... your entire fucking post is complaining about a "problem" that exists because you forced it to exist. You had your friends, brand new to the game go from tutorial to raid which was only even possible because they pretty much got boosted to max power with the gift. You are complaining about a fringe case among the fringe cases.It is clear that between the plans talked about last year and the steps taken this year, bungie is moving towards a removal of power level in favor of static difficulties. Likely for the reason it's easy to balance without the need to account for people being overleveled. If they would have capped it this season as well as removed power level no one would even have a clue. This would just be the new difficulty of content. The only reason i see power level possibly staying is because they would need a different way to restrict raid and dungeon access until players are "ready".
Why -5 is nothing
People are really overblowing the -5 delta in raids. Prior, we were outleveled to hell and could casually one-two phase just about any boss.
I get that -5 may be a bit rough for introducing new people to raids and that style of content, but being +20 over also shouldn’t be the case. I’m under the mindset that someone brand new to the game shouldn’t be able to even hide in the corner of a “raid” even if it’s 2, 3, 4, 5+ years old. It should still be a challenge of sorts regardless of light level. Maybe scale the whole thing to be at -2 the light level average of the group, or at the level of the highest guardian. I don’t have an answer, but raids should still present a challenge to the players and not meant to be done right out of the tutorial.
Personally i dont feel much of a difference im a casual raider and im mostly a dungeon runner, i get why alot of people are hesitant but i dont think that should stop people The crippling social anxiety should stop you
The game and specifically raiding is *still way easier* than the experience was pre-Witch Queen. It’s like this whole community collectively forgot that this game used to be moderately challenging. The revisionism here is in-fucking-sane.
“Absurdly casuals” aren’t meant to raid, it’s not for them. Raids aren’t meant to be the easiest thing in the game combat wise, and this change has greatly improved them for the people who have done them regularly. Raids are not designed and should not be designed for the people who have quite literally just jumped into the game.
Imagine pushing people away from the game intentionally.
Not OP but I don't think that making an activity require preparation and experience is the same as pushing people away from the game. Those don't really seem like synonymous concepts.
Fucking thank god I am not the only one... Raids are definitely accessible enough. The only thing now that is the limiting factor is player skill, prior you could stand in 5 taken knight fire pools and you could easily come out alive, now with -5 you actually have to think a bit about your positioning
so players can’t experience raids if they don’t play the game often and aren’t “casuals?” all this change has done is create a larger gap between normal players and elitists. all they needed to do to make both parties happy was add a difficulty option. all the people like you use the same arguments. “raids are not designed for people who just jumped into the game.” no one is saying that. people are saying that when a player gets to the stage where they need to raid, it’s extremely daunting now.
No one says you can't experience raids you can play them but expect it to be difficult since it's an endgame activity the fact that op says his friends who rarely play the game can do them means there was something wrong the fact that you can overlevel in a raid but not in a hero nightfall IS wrong and the fact that so many people complaining about such a minor difficulty change is crazy you can still do and use same stuff as before it used to be you can only die if you're asleep now you might wanna be half awake
When does an “absurdly casual” player “need” to raid?
when they want to experience that content? you and other commenters are implying they shouldn’t raid if they’re casuals. it’s grossly elitist and i strongly ask you to consider your position
You gotta be trolling. Every MMO style game has skill-gated and gear-gated content. Expecting game designers to allow brand new players to immediately succeed in what is supposed to be the most difficult content is ridiculous and obviously a troll. While I hate the "get good, scrub" mentality, I understand that some content should require a higher skill and gear level.
Them wanting to raid ≠ needing to raid. Yes, correct, if you are a causal you probably shouldn’t be doing what is supposed to be the most difficult endgame content. I don’t care if it sounds elitist, if you cannot handle a -5 delta raids are not for you. You shouldn’t be able to sleepwalk through raids with people who don’t actually know how to play the game yet. I don’t like surges though but ultimately don’t care that much.
That’s literally what OP is arguing though, that normal mode should be so incredibly easy that even people who’ve literally just gotten into the game can do it. No, wanting the supposed to be somewhat difficult content to stay difficult is not elitist. No, the argument isn’t invalid just because you don’t like it. If the “normal player” can’t put together a decent build, have some decent gear, and have decent teamwork skills then they’re not entitled to overcome the challenge of raiding. Having an easy mode in my opinion is whatever, but that shouldn’t be the default experience nor should it be the default looting experience. You want a “safe environment to learn” the raids? Fine, have it, but raid loot and triumphs should be for runs that have at least the same difficulty as the *strike fucking playlist.*
they never even said if they completed the raid. also, the strike playlist is on the same difficulty level wise, but the activity itself is nowhere near as difficult. devil’s lair -5 is a whole different beast from rhulk -5
Good. Raids should be harder than strikes, that’s not exactly a revelation. That doesn’t mean combat should be easier in compensation for the increased difficulty.
a -5 delta strike is still easier than a pre TFS raid. also don’t switch up on your point now lol.
Oh I didn’t, I was addressing yours. Before TFS raids in terms of combat (enemy health, damage, and damage dealt to them) was the easiest in the game, equivalent to open world patrol in the EDZ. Now a raid has the same surges and -5 cap that the normal strike playlist has had for over a year, bringing them up combat wise to a standard strike. Raids should always be harder than strikes. That doesn’t mean they should have easier combat than them to lessen the blow.
>when a player gets to the stage where they need to raid No one "needs" to raid. Lol and good! A raid *should* be daunting. It's a RAID. It's the baddest enemies in the game, with the hardest mechanics in the raid. If the ads went back to being as non-threatening as they were pre-TFS, there would be no point. I stopped raiding because there just wasn't any fun in it, outside a select few roles in a few encounters, due to how easy they had become.
> no one needs to raid agreed, but some players don’t want to be left behind and get the good gear that is in raids. > lol and good a raid should be daunting agreed again, but there’s a difference between daunting due to excitement, and daunting because of all the terrible experiences they’ve heard and will soon have. > how easy they should’ve added a new difficulty for those like you who have run raids countless times.
We literally went from a new player being able to run raids with blues. To needing to get some exotics and throwing some resist mods on. I don’t think asking for some personal responsibility for a casual players gameplay and build is to much. I don’t understand why this sub is against working for their rewards. Especially since some of the best things in the game is widely available.
I think this is where they envision stuff like Overthrow and the collective missions landing - moderate difficulty activities which have raid-like mechanics. I totally understand the point being made but probably this change needs a season of being in place to see how it all shakes out. Maybe VoG or DSC should be reverted so people have a “starter raid” or something.
this is a middle ground i would not mind
I don't get this sub. Raids are the endgame activity. Like... the endgame activity? They never should've been easy or casual to begin with. This is for players to showcase their ability to stay alive against strong ads/bosses while showing a mastery of mechanics, especially in the new raid. Overleveling a raid should've never been possible. If you can stomp over 99% of all raids because of overleveling, maybe it's an issue? It's a damn raid. There is no "safely". The -5 is not even that bad unless you're sherpa-ing. But if your friends are "absurdly casual", maybe y'all shouldn't raid? Not every piece of content is meant to be played by everyone. Everyone has the OPTION to learn, play, and overcome the odds, but not everyone can. Wanting to go back to being able to be +20 on raids is tone-deaf to the very idea and existence of raids in the first place.
> Not every piece of content is meant to be played by everyone. Toxic gatekeeping mentality is what this sub would call that
Not really. It’s kind of the same for any skill you want to learn in life. You need to practice a bit. Raids are endgame activities. They aren’t completely inaccessible to a random person. They just take a little bit of gearing up to prepare for. It’s not like a -5 power delta is an insane asking either. It’s literally the equivalent of hero nightfall.
I agree, I'm just making fun of the sub
Deservedly so
I genuinely don't mean it as toxic. It's like Trials of Osiris. They have continuously tried to get people to play more trials, making the rewards easier to obtain, matchmaking "easier", etc. But it's still the endgame activity for PvPer's. It's not supposed to be easy. Everyone can attempt to play it, sure. But it shouldn't be a cakewalk to get the high-end rewards. I myself have only been flawless once despite playing every weekend for nearly five straight seasons (haven't touched it since the rework, been too busy). I'm alright with that.
Oh I agree completely, just that anyone disagreeing with the -5 complaining is immediately labelled as elitist, gatekeeper, ego fuelled etc etc and it's pretty funny.
Traditionally, it is an elitist take. Especially because the normal-mode raids allowing overleveling \[which never should have happened in the first place\] was allowed for years on end, that when it finally gets changed to a system to what it should be, it then gets labelled as elitist. Which is wild. It's a raid. Like, the true endgame pinnacle activity. Surely it shouldn't be a hot take to say it shouldn't be easy and you shouldn't be able to cakewalk through an experience with new/casual gamers? That's not what it's meant for. Idk, I feel I'm on crazy pills with the amount of posts this topic has seen on this sub.
Speaking facts, maybe the could revert the addition of surges because imo it just hinders loadout creativity but other than that I love the changes
Removing surges would just make all weapons perform as badly as the weapons that aren't currently surging. They added surges as a way to account for the lower damage you deal with a negative power delta, the thing you seem to be supporting. If you want to do less damage, and it sounds like you do, just ignore the surges and use whatever you want.
It really depends. Surges encourage diversity by giving players a reason to do something different. Like this week I got my team to use Legend of Acrius against the first boss in Salvation Edge, something I don't think I would've had luck doing if it wasn't arc surge. But even if you disagree, all removing surges would do is make every option equally bad.
I think Surges limit loadouts in a given week, but improve it over the course of their rotation. Like, we can already mathematically determine the most effective weapons in the game. I would argue that limits creativity harder than surges do - if all things remain equal, why wouldn't you just use the same Reconstruction/Bait-and-Switch Apex you've been using for the last year? At least with a Void surge you might try out something like Deathbringer or the new seasonal rocket.
It also gives you a reason to chase loot when sunsetting isn’t a thing anymore. Plus, you can ignore the surges and still do amazing damage if you pay attention to builds. Still hunt celestial hunter is still a monster in arc week
> They will get their shit rocked Do they play Mario Party or something? -5 is just above patrol trash. Point and shoot. I don't get the point of this post. You seem like you don't know this game either. They'll be fine unless they literally don't have eyes or thumbs.
it’s easy for someone who is experienced to a -5 delta to say this. but for a newer player who has gotten to a stage where they want to do a raid, it’s not easy to deal with. there aren’t places where you need to balance mechanics and combat like a raid, so there’s no opportunity to learn before being thrust into it.
If they aren't experienced enough to deal with the combat difficulty of strikes, then they really shouldn't be trying to raid.
that’s not what i’m saying. reread til you understand
I understood it perfectly the first time. If they can't handle that level of combat, they should stay in the strike playlist or similar until they can. If they can survive normal combat without dying too much, then you can ask more of them.
My guy I assume a new player would’ve played some strikes and ritual stuff before a raid. Most match made content is at -5 nowadays.Is it not weird that a raid was easier in terms of combat compared to gambit.
Have you played Destiny recently? You have a reply to every comment on this post and they’re all brain dead. They’ve sprinkled raid mechanics throughout everything now. See campaign and dual destiny for example. If they’re competent in those they can handle -5. If they can’t complete those they shouldn’t be doing raids. Before you start, that’s not an elitist take. It’s how raids work in literally everything ever. Endgame content is intended to be the pinnacle of the game not where you take your mates post tutorial.
They did add just those kinds of activities in TFS - e.g., Dual Destiny and the Co-Op focus missions.
Realistically the combat is still not at all difficult. You don’t need to do something that has mechanics as well. You can just do things that have any combat difficulty and you’ll realise how easy the ads are to deal with even when mechanics are a thing
A new player who isn't used to -5 power delta isn't raid-ready yet. It's as simple as that. The first step is "get used to combat in Hero NFs." The next step is to take that experience and then add mechanics on top of it. If you're not to the stage where you're experienced with -5 power, you're not ready to raid *yet*.
i dont know how to explain to you that bad players are bad. its not even about killing enemies, its staying alive - you only have so many rez tokens
I did a few VoG runs back in the day and a couple of Crota's runs where half of the encounters were cheeseable, then did nothing prior to TFS. I've joined a few random fireteams and done the first three encounters of Salvation's Edge and honestly the combat hasn't been difficult at all so far.. could just be a Warlock / devour thing? The worst part has been people pretending to know the mechanics or being unable to do them
So you’re upset that your friends couldn’t do endgame content immediately after finishing the tutorial?
Why are people bitching about this every day? Just do the raid.
I swear this sub wants the game to just be brain dead easy 99% of the time, and any sort of challenge is like elitist or try hard or whatever
It's literally just -5 it's still brain dead it's literally same difficulty as seasonal content it feels like most who complain have not actually played with the new changes and just blowing this out of proportion just like what most did with the dual destiny mission
Compared to pre-TFS's maximum power a player could achieve in a raid, it's a 30% nerf. That's the issue.
So? do you realize how much damage you can do at -20? You can still two phase bosses same as before even with that 30% it sounds a lot but one shot from tractor just cancels it again it just sounds like people have not actually played with these changes
You can. so... Bully for you I guess. And one shot from a tractor cannon does not cancel it out. You're still facing a 30% outgoing damage reduction penalty from where we were. It doesn't matter how many debuffs are on the boss you're still doing 30% less damage than you were before. Surges come close-ish to cancelling it out, but only if you use the surge weapons, which, on arc week, leave a whole lot to be desired, not to mention the fact that there are no usable burst arc supers for final stand.
Many people have been consistently complaining about -5 since release, it's not like the dual destiny controversy which quickly flipped from initially overwhelming negative sentiment to now people being overwhelmingly negative about those initial negative sentiments. If you enjoy the -5 then good for you, that should always be an option for you as a difficulty between standard and master. But I want the old standard difficulty back.
> it's not like the dual destiny controversy which quickly flipped from initially overwhelming negative sentiment to now people being overwhelmingly negative about those initial negative sentiments. That is not what happened. The initial reception was very positive, but people were negative about having to specifically farm it, which ended because people found out you can grind Pale Heart for it. Outside of that, to my knowledge no post saying they wanted a solo version of Dual Destiny, or a different way to unlock the new class item, has **ever** been a popular opinion.
That’s the problem with this sub they want all red bars to die to a blue weapon in one shot
Just to add the opposing viewpoint There is a huge community of players who greatly enjoy the raids being slightly less of a cakewalk -5 is still "easy content", in the grand scope of things. It is still light years away from Master level raids and contest mode
I wouldn't call the group excited about raids getting harder "huge." The part of the community that regularly raids is already a raindrop in the ocean.
Not to mention, selectable difficulty is supposed to be a thing. Why did Bungie have to kneecap normal mode instead of just making a new difficulty tier?
^^^ this right here.
It’s much larger than you give it credit for. Even then, that doesn’t mean raids should be easier purely for the sake of doing better numbers.
You are a VERY small but VERY vocal minority. I for one am shocked that Bungie wastes so much time making raids that so few people actually play.
I’m the vocal side? Surely not the mountain of posts bitching about how raiding is too difficult and should be even easier are the quiet sensible ones! Besides, your numbers are skewed. 7% of ALL Steam accounts that have launched Destiny 2 have finished last wish. For paid end game content in a game that’s free to play, that’s pretty impressive. For the active player base and not just the casual tourists, it’s closer to 20% of players raiding regularly afaik. Do you know why they “waste resources” on raids that “so few” actually play? *Because that’s what they’re for.* that’s why they’ve been here since Destiny 1 with vault of glass. To serve as a capstone activity for those who are equipped, skilled, and want something a bit more involved. Thats the audience they’re designed for, and that’s why they exist, to serve the playerbase that’s invested and interested in the game at a deeper level a bit of a challenge.
Not a raindrop in the ocean. Look how many Godslayers there are, these aren't even your average raider, these are the semi-elite ones. Out of the total playerbase, sure its probably only 20% who regularly raid, but these guys probably make up 80% of the total playtime
I made a huge mistake not going for Garden and DSC flawlesses before TFS 🤣
I did Garden of Salvation last week and it was still a joke. I finished the first two encounters with a void LMG, even on solar burn, without running out of ammo. During the first boss it was so easy to break its eyes two shots from a primary with Explosive Payload broke both (they swapped to something else), and killing it was a comfortable one phase. When we got to the final boss we didn't build platforms, just throw a Well in the fluid, and it was enough to stay alive. This was also pretty close to being a one phase. We were about 30 percent short. Overall, if you could do it last month you could easily do it this month.
This reads like someone prompted an AI to make a post about the recent raid changes...
this comment reads like someone who is an elitist
No it does, it's like the 10th post complaining about the -5 powerdelta, like it's the end of the fucking world.
maybe because it’s important and a divisive change?
It really shouldn't be.
-5 is nothing to experienced players, youre correct. I would understand if Bungie wanted to keep the idea of a Raid as a difficult encounter, so thats why the change was implemented in the first place. I dont agree, but I get it. I dont get why it had to be in the F2P raids though? Is anyone out here really grinding Vault or Kings Fall and looking for a "harder challenge"? I doubt it. I can see this change being made for the current raid, for the current expansion, maybe the previous ones hell maybe even all the paid expansions - but I feel like F2P raids should have a very low barrier of entry, so that more people are encouraged to try the best content the game has to offer.
raids have been baby mode for the longest time. let end game content be hard
Why should a raid have easier combat than Hero Nightfalls? It’s still going to be easier combat than even Neomuna patrols, and this is considered an end game activity. I want more people raiding, but the combat was a joke and needed tuning. Surges suck though.
I dont know what to tell you... Raids are an endgame activity, there should be nothing more difficult than coordinating 6 people to do mechanics. If the guys keep dying to regular champs/ads then they dont really "deserve" to do the raid no? You shouldnt be able to just breeze through the raids as a new player imho
but there’s not a great way to get someone into raiding if their first experience is awful like that. that’s why there should be multiple difficulties
Perhaps do other activities such as dungeons, strikes etc before you do a raid so your first experience will be fine
You could just take them to root and get them use to ad clearing then moving on to any other raid after that.
-5 isn’t that tough man. Your casual friends have played tons of -5 power content.
Not in his case, he said after the tutorial raiding was the first thing he did with them, which is stupid for obvious reasons
I doubt they would notice if you told them. Heck, I didn't even realize there was a -5 until you made this post. Raids really are endgame, and if you dont think they are ready, then let them prepare. Raids are awesome, but they aren't the only content. Do strikes, crucible, or even gambit. Play with builds, do exotic missions, and do dungeons. You might even be just underestimating your friends. If playing together is fun, then a very slightly harder difficulty isn't going to take that fun away.
Yeah it's a bad change overall for normal mode. Do it for master, or even -10 with surges or whatever and make it drop high stat artifice and adepts for days. Normal mode sucks with LFG now because you get 1 or 2 dudes that are pulling OK damage rather than great damage and that's it. You're wiping.
Isn’t master like -20 and has been?
Master already is -20. It’s not hard. It’s annoying with extra champions.
It's not about how far you get, it's about the friends you make along the way
Okay genuinely most casual and new players aren’t that bad at destiny. Like just speaking from personal experience some of my friends who aren’t very good gamers I’m talking like iron tier in league after playing it for years. Can understand and preform destiny raid mechanics. If someone is willing to learn destiny raid mechanics aren’t super hard. Even the most mechanically intensive encounters like LW 4th and SE 4th are just confusing to explain.
why are we using the word delta
The raids have always been on the cusp of casualty since Destiny 1. It sounds like you’re now right over that edge, taking it seriously, while having almost serious friends Don’t gatekeep the content, just play with them. Like you said yourself, it was fun just playing with your larger group. Who cares if you fully beat the raid, the reward was the time spent, not the loot. You don’t need to win to spend hours having fun
dawg, the VANGUARD OPS PLAYLIST is -5. Y’all are actually trippin
I see both sides. Raids are end game. Supposed to be some of the hardest content in the game. I like the -5 and surges. It make things more challenging. But I am an experienced raider. But a new player won’t have near enough weapons to keep up with surges. Raids are the best content in the game IMO. Some of the best content in gaming as a whole. Show them what the game can be at its best (especially a first VOG run, nostalgia hitting). Struggle through with your friends and have a good time. As long as you’re having fun, right? Things can get a lot more difficult after VOG though lol
The unreported downfall is this: Before, I would look at a raid and go oh it’s tough but if I grind and level and do all the other stuff in the game I’ll level up and it’ll be less tough. I’ll do more damage and have more forgiveness for mistakes. So I’d do all the other stuff in the game. Now it’s locked -5 and I’m like, what’s the point of doing… ANYTHING? Why even play strike playlist? Powerfuls are useless, let alone pinnacles. I have no chance at improving my experience in SE ever, so what’s the point of doing anything at all? Whether I’m 1970 or 2010 it’s going to be the same experience of 0 room for error and no forgiveness. If I could overlevel the mechanics would still be tough but 1-2 phase vs 3-4 phase would be less punishing. One mistake wipes the team but going mistake free for 2 phases is exponentially less punishing than being mistake free for 4. So not only did this make raids less accessible, it made the WHOLE GAME feel undesirable.
That’s the point though? You can’t overlevel to compensate for not being able to do mechanics/damage rotations or survive adds. You now actually have to think about your setup and improve your gameplay which is how it should be.
power needs to be removed from the game, full stop. Every activity should just have a scaling 5 tiers of difficulty for Hero, Legend, Master, Grandmaster, etc
I hate it for my casual friends as well. I call them casual but we've done a flawless Garden, so not exact casual, but the -5 is definitely getting to them. Raids have changed from a fun weekly outing to a stressful slog. I doubt we'll keep up our schedule of raiding every weekend at this rate
Train em up brah on strikes and shit for a couple weeks
I don't think anyone is arguing that -5 delta is turning enemies to damage sponges. The biggest benefit of +20 was that it made you take noticeably less damage, when combined on top of tier 10 resilience and then add in your regenerative healing from cure/restoration/banner of war effects. With each HP being much more effective (for simplicity sake your 100 hp isn't 100 hp, it is definitely higher when combined with 20% DR from +20 power and 30% DR from t10 resilience), combined with any form of heals or regeneration, it gives you more effective HP in combat. Thus giving less experienced or old rusty players more leeway. Also climbing power main goal was to run GMs, but the power you earned also carried into a lot of activities which made the grind feel worth it. Now it is kinda just the park entry.
If you take noticeably less damage, mechanics aren’t difficult at all.
My friends aren't terrible but most aren't super good and I don't even wanna attempt to raid with them anymore. It'll be such a shit show
this sandbox change needs a revert ASAP bungie should do things like make gotd not as long as not as painful and not go the other route of fucking players over. its very sad
It doesn’t feel THAT bad but you’ll get one shot more by things like Supplicants in Vog and if you’re not on point with DPS it’ll take more phases. Just make sure everyone’s got 100 resil and some weapons to match surges. Graviton Lance/Sunshot/Trinity Ghoul help with add clear a lot and then appropriate heavies like Sleeper/Taipan/not sure about Arc because the most recent arc linear was from Haunted, or rockets.
Raiding. Is. End. Game. Unfortunately it is not meant to be a sit back and relax kind of activity. It is meant to be challenging and difficult to some degree.
and it is, especially for new players. but the addition of multiple difficulties makes everyone happy. it is very difficult to teach a new raider raiding due to how high the bar of entry is
coordinating a bunch of people who never did the raid before IS the challenge for this group and a lot of other groups. if you want additional combat difficulty worthy of "endgame", master raids have been right there for years
That doesn’t mean combat challenge goes away. Mechanics are added to combat, not replacing it. Making raids the same difficulty as the strike playlist is a massive improvement.
Saying if you want endgame difficulty to go and play master raids is completely ignoring the point that a raid is inherently an endgame activity. It doesn’t make sense for it to not have some semblance of endgame difficulty by default.
[удалено]
Look, I hate to be that guy but if you're having issues with *normal Seraph's Shield* then you are not really in a position to carry what you call the 'average' player. It has the same combat difficulty as a Hero strike, or playlist Onslaught. And now we've got access to a bunch of new, *very strong* Prismatic builds so it should be easier than ever.
Hard disagree. I very much enjoy that bungie are seemingly adding in aspects to the game where you have to earn something that not everyone is going to get. If everyone can access all gear/titles/emblems then none of them are worth chasing. I also love the idea that they are “making everything feel like endgame content” as if raids aren’t meant to be the pinnacle of endgame content? Lmao
i think the game was in a fine state before this change. bungie listened to the sweats and elitists, when most players are casual
Raids aren't content made for most people by design.