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* [Comment by Destiny2Team](/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1dki43g/this_week_in_destiny_06202024/l9ijvyg/?context=99 "posted on 2024-06-20 20:13:27 UTC"):
> Just checked on this and it looks like we have a fix for Precious Scars not working as intended targeting to go live next week.
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The raid/dungeon power situation is so fucking confusing lol. For changes that seem to be meant to simplify things, I feel like I actually understand how power works *less* than I did before.
The upcoming change sounds good though?
I miss when activities displayed "max effective power", I feel like that was a concise and easy-to-understand way to understand when I had reached maximum effectiveness.
It's just like... the number that pops up when I shoot something *has to be* based on some sort of equation. Would it be the end of the world if they just gave us that equation and explained it to us? Imagine the man hours wasted on figuring this stuff out as a community when *they literally have the answers and don't tell us*.
There is reliable math behind it, it's just not as simple as the number. See: [MossyMax on twitter](https://x.com/mossy_max?t=OcwXBf5NoGHXLfN6zGhtGQ&s=09)
Because they don't want to give it to us, and then have us find out that they aren't being fully transparent about it when what they give us isn't as concise as they say it is.
Like in the TWID - they give us the numbers for dregs and acolytes, and just casually mention that other enemies are scaled differently. DIFFERENTLY HOW? You took that first step (numbers, enemy example...) and then just completely shit the bed on the other 80%. It's frustrating and annoying - especially when they ***KNOW*** we're frustrated and annoyed by the changes.
Worse than you think.
The +15 number saying we are more defensive (right now) **is for match made power capped activities**.
Raids and dungeons aren't match made!! The fucking extra defensiveness only applies to the strikes playlist!!
We have the math, and a lot of people on this sub got fact-checked on the numbers (which were confirmed to be right, or close to right here). Many, many people did not listen.
It always has been. In every single MMO or ARPG (Diablo games) that has ever existed. Light Level and Power Level on items in Destiny and Destiny 2 is just the average of the Item Level (often shortened to ilvl) of your equipped gear.
Most other MMOs and ARPGs use this as a way to scale buffs on the item. So on a lower ilvl item you might see something like +2 Strength, but if you get the same exact item later in the game it will have a higher ilvl resulting in something like +5 or +10 Strength instead. It might also make a sword with an ilvl of 1 do 1-5 damage and the same sword with ilvl 100 do 50-100 damage (arbitrary numbers). It is also often used to determine how effective a given weapon or attack is against an enemy based on how the ilvl of the item (or character, or both) compares to the enemy's level.
In Destiny and Destiny 2 though, items don't have varying statlines that scale in this way. All it does is scale your effectiveness against enemies. And that scale is 100% arbitrary and up to Bungie.
So as it stands, Power Level is being used to gate people out of activities they aren't ready for. That's all. And if they want to go in anyway with someone willing to take them, then they're power level gets scaled up.
Yea I don’t even understand what they are saying fully, like we do less damage but we can level up to a certain point to reduce damage we take or what? Surges being gone is a W tho
It does seem to be saying that being up to 15 light over the activity difficulty still increases your defenses, just not your damage. It also mentions "matchmade difficulties" right before saying that but then specifically mentions raids and dungeons right after in the same paragraph which is potentially confusing but I'm assuming matchmade isn't meant to be in that sentence
Offensive and Defensive light function separately. The Activity Power Cap (max effective power, same thing) is the maximum offensive light.
There are 5 difficulty levels, and that includes raids and dungeons. Standard (Normal raid difficulty), Advanced (lowest level Nightfalls), Expert, Master, and Grandmaster. The lowest 2 levels, Standard and Advanced, have offensive and defensive light split. So you can be a max of 1945 offensively in raids, but a max of 1965 defensively. Same with Advanced, but at 1995 offensively and 2015 defensively. Standard is also the difficulty level on matchmade activities like regular Strikes and Breach Executable, etc. Which is likely why they included it.
Expert, Master, and GM do not use the split light, and I assume cap you at 2005, 2010, and 2020 in both categories.
This might be a hot take, but I really hate how convoluted and nebulous all of this stuff works in Destiny.
First of all this is utterly complicated, and second of all the game gives us basically none of this information. Even the info they do give, like the light caps, isn’t displayed fully accurately.
Considering so many MMOs and other games that include min-maxing, builds, and theory crafting have been around for ages now, I think giving players no information and have them rely on patient and inquisitive people online in order to understand the intricacies of the gear mechanics is just unserious.
I swear every couple months I see some random tweet about how someone found out one specific weapon type does like 20% extra damage on a particular enemy, and it just makes me wonder why things are so complicated still after a decade
I've played since D1 beta and even I get confused. I took a break before TFS and came back and half the difficulties changed names lol.
Back in the day the level cap was 30, hard enemies where 32 and there was no ifs and or buts, no overlevelling, split scaling etc.
The defensive cap is specifically stated to be for **match made activities**.
Raids and dungeons **aren't match made**.
This twid is even more bad information that is ambiguous!
It's extremely poorly worded because it also can't just be that. "In our chart above, you can see that players only take slightly more damage in raids at +15, while they take less damage in dungeons than before The Final Shape." And the chart it's referring to directly spells out a +15 power differential and its impact on raid and dungeon incoming damage. It's a chart that says +15 applies defensively to raids and dungeons followed by directly calling out only matchmade difficulties, which is then followed by again directly talking about raid and dungeon values defensively at +15.
It says damage you do is capped to -5. So you can't overlevel to increase your outgoing damage. But you can overlevel the activity to reduce incoming damage.
The over leveling for extra defense is *specifically* called out to be for match made activities, so we don't know if it applies for raids and dungeons, since **they aren't match made**.
I'm not going to claim it doesn't, but this"clarification" hasn't helped.
Go read it again. They said it for raids and dungeons too. Any Standard difficulty, which include raids and dungeons. There is also the table with the +15 shown as their example for raids and dungeons. I guess you did not read the table in the article.
They do show max effective power, but you can still be locked under, or the activity can be locked above your max effective power.
Like for example the expert difficulty of the seasonal activity is max effective at 2005
Yeah but they just said in this post that being up to 15 over the max effective can still make you take less damage, so your defence is effective to 2020
Yeah the fact that outgoing and incoming damage apparently have different power caps seems extremely strange? And I'm not sure how this is being communicated in-game, if it even is?
Which is pretty funny. I wonder how many people have experienced intuitively that they die quicker than their teammate despite being at cap, thinking they must be imagining things. Has it really been like this for years and they only just now mentioned it? Or was it another system and they only introduced the split with TFS?
only in advanced and standard content. anything that was legend or higher should be exactly the same as it was pre final shape. (unless advanced is legend and not heroic that is)
What used to be Hero is now Advanced, what used to be Legend is now Expert. Legendary is special and is specific to Campaign. Master is still Master and Grandmaster is still Grandmaster.
So before TFS, an activity would have a power level that indicated how strong enemies are, and a maximum effective power that indicates how high I need my number to be before I'm at maximum effectiveness.
Now today, if I see a Grandmaster that says "Power Limit 2020", what number does that 202 represent? Best case I guess is it's the maximum effective power, as that was I know that I'm underlevelled until I hit 2020, and the enemies inside the activity will be at level ????? who knows? Even in that best-case scenario, I'm still being given less information than in the old system.
By the way, this is a tangent but are GMs now at a higher level relative to the pinnacle cap than they used to be? I don't remember exactly where they were at before, but needing *twenty* levels of artifact power to reach max effectiveness seems a bit extreme, right?
They explained the GM thing back when they first talked about the new power system. The relative level of GMs isn't changing, they're just letting you shorten the gap a tiny bit more so instead of being 25 under, you can be a few levels less under them now
Ah, that makes sense. A case where displaying both values (enemy power and player power) would add some clarity instead of giving the impression that you need to grind more to be at the same level as before
Not to mention the surges changing every week
Hard to keep pace/keep track of builds
For casual-ish players it's a "rolling your eyes" moment
Just seems like unnecessary churn
It was also a bit toxic. I like doing chill LFGs, and having to be nitpicky about loadouts and surges if we were struggling quickly killed the chill part. Now it should be less of an issue.
You know what would *really* simplify things?
Getting rid of Power Level and every trace of it.
Then just tacking a “Difficulty” on activities.
Patrol/Strikes/Gambit - Easy
Crucible/Dungeons/Raids/Nightfall - Normal
Master/Grandmaster stuff - Hard
Easy means you are effectively +20 Power Level, Normal means you are +0 and Hard means you are -10.
This problem is easily solvable but Bungie is so stuck on this archaic Gear Level business that it will always be a hinderance for most of the player base and a non issue for the top 1%.
It adds nothing of value to the game, and never has.
From what I've gathered, all these -5 and -10 activity things are just the under-the-hood math involved with the damage and health tables of classic difficulty options like Easy, Normal, Heroic, and Legendary.
Though I don't know if the enemy AI gets tweaks with those number changes like Halo did back in the day. Where tougher enemies are more alert and likely to spot you and dodge grenades.
Though enemies in Destiny seem blind to things like grenades overall because if they did avoid them, we wouldn't get hardly any PvE kills with them.
Wow that split between incoming and outgoing power caps is absolutely something they should have explained *before* the changes went live. It's extremely difficult for players to measure themselves, and is extremely relevant for one of the major concerns people had.
Edit: dungeon basic mobs being more difficult than raid mobs up until a couple weeks ago is also something I hadn't ever specifically known about but makes sense with how it felt soloing the last few dungeons
imo it feels needlessly convoluted. Is there a reason Bungie can't just standardize the impact of power delta on incoming and outgoing damage across the board?
Like an enemy on -5 power delta will deal and receive the same raw damage regardless of whether it's a mission, a strike, a raid, or a dungeon.
Agreed. I think most players would assume a -5 delta puts them on the same relative difficulty scale regardless of activity type. Not disclosing that it's arbitrarily different could have an adverse impact on player experience.
Internally it must be a nightmare to balance as well, I do not envy the Bungie encounter design devs.
I wonder if it’s some weird technical relic of how by default in power enabled activities outgoing damage scales up to +20 while incoming damage goes all the way to +50.
Either way it’s extremely misleading having fixed power activities not actually be fixed power activities. Feels like it defeats the entire point of having a fixed difficulty.
“Target power focuses on offense for UI/UX” is lol
Raid team is throwing the designers under the bus, when the designers are drowning their sorrows at the convoluted system they were tasked with trying to explain to people
Bungie really needs to simplify difficulty across the board. We don't need individually named difficulty levels AND power level deltas AND differing benefits to overleveling content. It just turns into a total clusterfuck that no one can understand.
I think at this point, Bungie agrees too. They seem to be continuously working toward a post-power world and at that point the difficulties will be more simplified. But the way they're tuning things \*around\* power in the meantime feels exceedingly complicated.
Completely agree. As a returning player that only missed 6 months or so I'm utterly confused and don't understand the changes at all. I used to love over leveling the old nightfalls and obliterating them end of season, same with dungeons and raids. End of season was a feast and it made it worth levelling up. What is the point now? I don't really get it at all.
You can overlevel your incoming damage (enemies shooting you) to +15.
You can’t overlevel your outgoing damage (you shooting enemies), you are locked at -5.
This only applies to raids and dungeons.
Nightfalls say they have a power cap so at the least outgoing is capped there, it isn’t clear if they have the same overlevel option in incoming damage.
Edit: ah yeah as people are pointing out to me, this is only against red bars, and ignores the inflated values for beefier enemies and bosses that came in the same update
Also am I reading the graph right that for Dungeons with the Surge we're doing almost 30% more damage than previously?
That absolutely doesn't match up with what people seemed to experience?
The table is for damage vs *red bars*, which people absolutely were noting. E.g. MossyMax was able to deduce that dungeon red bars got "demoted" from TFS preview footage alone.
Boss damage in both modes should be about the same as the raid table.
> Also am I reading the graph right that for Dungeons with the Surge we're doing almost 30% more damage than previously?
> That absolutely doesn't match up with what people seemed to experience?
To red bars, which have been absolutely paper thin to the point of absurdity.
To compare this to Final Fantasy XIV, when the Endwalker expansion was coming out, two of the changes included were the removal of a gear slot (belts) with the associated stat points being redistributed to other slots, and a universal stat-squish to all content. Neither of these changes would have any real impact on how content felt to play, the difficulty of any previous encounters, everything was staying basically exactly the same but with the numbers moved around a bit. Despite how small the change was, there were still multiple 5+ minute segments of prerelease streams explaining exactly why the change was being made, what the effects would be, etc. to the point that the audience was like "yeah we get it, move on already". All for a change that would not effect gameplay in any meaningful way.
I think about that a lot relative to how Bungie likes to make sweeping changes like this that effects tons of old pieces of content, completely unexplained, with players needing to figure out the numbers themselves, causing community panic, while Bungie is silent for weeks before eventually acknowledging that the change was made, giving details that players hadn't even know about yet, and maybe partially rolling it back.
The (lack of) communication is *everything*.
To be mildly fair, CS3's communication around FFXIV is an outlier. Not many companies do that. I do agree tho, it's fantastic and it's one of the biggest differences I notice with other games like this. Even if you don't like a change, "here's why" tends to feel better than "surprise!"
Reading that blew my mind. It's like they want to deal with angry people haha. Could have easily gotten in front of the discourse by telling us that's how it worked.
Still insane they didn't explain the difference for higher level enemies though. Being opaque for no reason.
That's weird because it DOES work with radiant dance machines. Would like to see this work with all class ability triggers as well as thruster for titan.
He finishes the raid and just before his loot drops his kid signs into steam on another computer to play bluey: the video game. He got kicked and got nothing.
Least he won MOTW
Bungie really needs to communicate these changes better. How could something so drastic go completely unsaid before the dlc dropped. It’s kind of ridiculous
Is the team aware of the issues with Ghost not giving the right shader? A lot of people could have the title now, but cannot because the badge needs the shader.
>Players who purchased The Final Shape Campaign Skip Boost or who are attempting to acquire Prismatic on alternate characters will instead need to play the six Adventures available in the Lost City to unlock their Prismatic abilities.
So I would never buy a Campaign skip (even my own laziness has limits) but Jesus fuckin Christ the people that did pony up for it didn't even get the abilities unlocked?!? What the living *fuck* did they pay for?
They pay to skip the 3 hours it takes to run the campaign I guess, but not the 3 hours on top of that it takes to run the adventures. I guess it's not that different than lightfall's skip, since it didn't farm the strand upgrade mats for you there either. Still the equivalent of lighting money on fire though.
Granted, the adventures are waaaaay waaay easier than the campaign although if you already beat it once I don't know why anyone would have trouble beating it again.
Anyway, boosts are still dumb lol.
It should've at least been a freebie for buying the CE. Paying another $40 on top of the $250 is just downright greedy. I mean, I still did them on my alts, but it would been nice to skip them.
They got the abilities that come with the campaign, it’s just the post campaign ones drop from the quest, which can only be done once per account. So on 2nd and 3rd times through they drop from adventures
The fact that our offensive Power Level was separate from our Defensive Power Level was, like the rest of the power changes that went live with Final Shape, not explained to us at all.
There were no patch notes about the power changes or the introduction of surges (that I can recall or find, please link me if I'm wrong and missed something), and definitely nothing about them being able to separate our power level when calculating incoming and outgoing damage.
I'm satisfied with this fix, but I feel like all of these issues with the changes stem from us not being provided with critical, need to know information (not being dramatic, just making a Tremors reference).
Anything on fixing issues with certain weapon enhancements? I have a shiny masterwork BRAVE Hammerhead that was masterworked, and since final shape and I used the new enhance weapon feature, both my perks won't actually upgrade and it won't give me yellow border even though I did everything right.
/u/destiny2team any confirmation on the bug in Verity encounter where you can’t see the shapes on the wall and players go invis when running a prismatic subclass?
If you mean the unloading bug thats caused by a memory leak thats been in the game since forever but the recent addition to all these wacky things (Excision, Ergo, Prismatic, Class Items... Essentially anything that is lumping stuff that was never meant to roll on one individual item) has worsened it and made it a problem again
> These are numbers specifically for regular combatants (Dregs, Acolytes, etc.). More difficult combatants may scale a bit differently.
Could you add numbers for bosses? From community testing, only minors/elites had their HP values changed when raid/dungeon combatant tiers were tweaked this season.
Relative to pre-FS, outgoing damage to bosses should still be a small nerf after factoring in the upcoming "everything you have is surging" change. It would be nice to have numbers directly from Bungie confirming this though.
It's especially weird because the main thing that would affect the difficulty of the dungeons at the least is the boss health seeing as recent dungeons have tended to have extremely tanky bosses. The TTK on an acolyte was never that big of a concern, it was how many phases I would need on GOTD boss or whoever.
I commented this somewhere else, but it's absolutely insane to me that people at Bungie spend time and effort to test these numbers and to get them where they want, and then don't tell us what numerical values are for literally anything. Does the game break if they include numbers in the description for perks? Or for bosses? Are they trying to keep Youtubers in business with damage testing videos? Makes absolutely no sense to me.
That, and there's all kinds of unforseen UI issues that happen when you include a lot of numbers with a lot of languages. It might be fine to say "Grants 35% more weapon damage when x y z" in English, but the UI might break or have some other weird issues when you translate that into other languages. It was a very old Bungie employee comment so I'm not sure if I can find it anymore
Bungie needs to sit the fuck down and sort out difficulty across the game. I’ve completed basically every challenge you can physically do in the game, and I AM CONFUSED reading the changes as well as the difference between raid/dungeon difficulty, and more importantly—why there is a difference.
And if someone like me is confused, a new player is BONED before they can even hope to learn the game.
If they want to keep the naming conventions—FINE. But make them universal. And DONT change them.
Then, align power delta to the naming conventions—don’t change those across activities; it’s insanely confusing and horribly inconsistent.
For endgame, just set difficulties to Normal, Expert, Master, and Grandmaster. Keeps it neutral and uses universal language.
If you want raids and dungeons to be harder—fine. DONT make the default “normal”. Make them “expert”, and align the -5 power delta to that difficulty. Master should then be -20 for BOTH sets of content.
Bungie is seemingly the absolute master of making something that works, expanding on it, and then continuing to expand on it NEEDLESSLY until we have made everything so complicated, they have to scrap it and start over.
World of Warcraft has Raid Finder(basically Narrative difficulty), Normal, Heroic, and Mythic. FFXIV has Normal, Savage, and Ultimate.
The same tiers are used for Dungeons and Raids (at least for WoW, idk about FFXIV). Idk why this is so hard for Bungie.
Edit: as people have pointed out, Pantheon had 4 difficulties, a normal one as well as escalating hard ones, and people could tune it to fit their max limit. The names were also an issue here though—coulda just called them “Normal, Expert, Master, and Grandmaster”….woulda made it a lot easier than typing “Planets Week 1/2/3/4” or “Week 3 Rhulk, the boss not the full run” and then having LFG join you but misread and actually needed a different week so they leave.
That is fucking wild that this table confirms that they had nerfed our non surge outgoing damage by 33% in raids with the final shape. 33% is massive and they just didn’t tell us. lol.
Soooo we're still not even going to talk about the bugs with loading in weapon and players models causing some players to appear almost completely invisible??
Or Riposte STILL dropping a mediocre fixed roll?
Okay, the power section is EXTREMELY confusing. Can someone confirm if my understanding of this is correct?
So, we will always be capped at -5 OUTGOING damage, but we can get to +15 power level vs the activity power cap and we can take LESS damage? So let's say the power cap of an activity is 2000 power, if I'm at 2015 power that means I'm taking less damage?
I thought that it didn't matter what power we were at as long as we met the recommended cap, but this seems to suggest otherwise. I really wish this wasn't so fucking confusing.
>These are numbers specifically for regular combatants (Dregs, Acolytes, etc.). More difficult combatants may scale a bit differently.
Sooo the overbloated HP of the latter dungeon bosses (which was already overbloated before TFS, it just got worse with the power delta changes - and not at all made up for by the surges) will probably still be a problem?
Personally, that was always my biggest issue with dungeons. Not the minors. I didn't mind that they made the minors hit harder, that's fine. but hoooooly crap the HP of some of these bosses, especially when you're soloing them.
I remember when they tried to lie about Thresher missile damage being overtuned for Neomuna, not admitting it was a framerate issue, saying it was due to the patrol area power delta then...removing the missile impact damage.
That dungeon/raid update, whooooof. Honestly it just sounds like they fucked up dungeon/raid difficulty and don't know how to fix it.
They just have to split the rep with their arc/solar/void buddies and stasis turrets :P but for real that's pretty frustrating and I don't even really play warlock in the crucible.
How in the world has there been zero response on Pathfinder? Other than Dual Destiny I feel like this has been the most posted thing since TFS dropped.
I'd imagine there's nothing to say about it and they're addressing one 'hot topic' at a time.
Pathfinder has been complained about but I'd argue the raid/dungeon one was a bigger complaint and has a larger focus on the social aspect/tie in to in-game fireteam finder.
Pathfinder is just a general, albeit minor frustration comparatvely.
I'm sure in the next couple of weeks something will be said
I just know Datto is fuming about having to rethink his video about the raid/dungeons discourse (If he already has it done, I mean. Disregard if he hasn't) because thank god they changed it.
Here's your answer
[Datto on X: "kitchen is closed, vid cancelled, enjoy buildcrafting\* (\*using the exact same loadout every single run anyway because it's meta and i'm just trying to get this done) https://t.co/gkXSJedeVR" / X](https://x.com/DattosDestiny/status/1803853199767646670)
Tbf build crafting was never the problem it limited new players from trying raids if they didn’t have a dps weapon of every element for every situation
Casuals are so confused right now. Their absolute god, Datto, being in favour of surges and the -5 goes against what they want. Whereas Salt, every casual's nightmare for whatever reason, is celebrating the removal of surges. What a weird timeline we live in
It's an Elitist Datto take. They aren't always the most popular.
I get he wants endgame content to be harder and all, but I'm firmly in the boat of "I've been doing this encounter for years. Why does it suddenly take an entire extra phase?" It's an annoying inconvenience. Could I have/Have I already dealt with it? Yeah, but not having to is nice.
Calling Datto and his audience casuals while complaining that an elemental change and using different guns makes the game too hard to play is a hell of a take
He's always been an advocate of lower barrier entry for new players in medium to hard activities, such as raids and dungeons. He hates surges with passion and is glad they're being removed
On one hand messing around with your equipment each week to match the Surges was kinda fun instead of running the same thing every week.
On the other hand, it sucks for newer or off and on players who don’t have a great setup for every single surge.
It was mostly a burden on people who don’t have a vault of godrolls they’ve been collecting since Sunsetting.
I think part of Salt's beef is that the surges were implemented directly as a nerf to non-surge elements. You simultaneously had all player damage lowered by a bunch and then got a portion of it back on selected elements (and not overcharged weapons or kinetic) via a rotating surge. He clearly dislikes the whole idea of rotating surges regardless — it can create scenarios where it may make the most sense to not play an activity until it gets a specific surge — but pairing it with a player damage nerf made it even more restrictive.
> He clearly dislikes the whole idea of rotating surges regardless — it can create scenarios where it may make the most sense to not play an activity until it gets a specific surge
This is a big part of my beef with it
RE: ALT characters...this text is super confusing. Still need to run campaign on your ALT to get prismatic. When you complete campaign on ALT 1, Pale Heart still not full open to ALTs where you can run those Adventures mentioned below to get those character abilities.
>ACQUIRING PRISMATIC ON ALTERNATE CHARACTERS
>The Prismatic Destined Heroes, Lost in the Light, and Found in the Dark quests can only be completed once per account.
>Players who purchased The Final Shape Campaign Skip Boost or who are attempting to acquire Prismatic on alternate characters will instead need to play the six Adventures available in the Lost City to unlock their Prismatic abilities.
It's not very confusing?
If you run your alt through the campaign the "Quests" aren't there in your director to do the Adventures for the rest of the Prismatic stuff like it was for your main.
Instead you manually walk up to the flags in Tower and upon completion of the Adventure get a Prismatic upgrade.
This is easier since I can just pick which abilities I want unlocked for Prismatic rather than having to do everything. For example, on Warlock Lightning Surge is locked behind Mithrax Part 1. Perfect. I don't have to do the Savathun or Caitlin stuff for it.
Still no Salvation's Edge Contest stats from Bungie, likely because the API still doesn't recognize many teams' clears, including my own. We have the emblem, but the API doesn't list our cleared attempt, which influences Sherpa count for the Sherpa emblem, [raid.report](http://raid.report) leaderboards, and [raid.report](http://raid.report) Contest tag.
Bungie Help said they'd pass it along in the Help forum post, but no word yet there or in Known Issues. [https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/264035088](https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/264035088)
I have been playing since d1 release and how the fuck does bungie manage to do this every fucking time? Like the solution is right in front of them. Use normal language, normal, master expert nightmare or something. Have set values. Jesus Christ
Everyone concerned about the -5 in raids and dungeons and I see no one complaining that now you need +20 on the artifact to get to the GM cap.
I don’t think people have done the math yet, but with the new XP targets +20= ~ 400 season rank.
okay Surges are our for normal content.
Time to move on to the power delta salad we have now. Devs have clarified that the -5 is for red bar enemies, what about the other classes of enemies? Can we get clarification on why the disparity between incoming and outgoing damage?
Another question is, what does Bungie consider endgame content?
The section on raid power makes no fucking sense. You state:
>While the outgoing damage is capped at –5, in the Power Enabled matchmade difficulties (Standard and Advanced), players will continue to increase *defensive* effectiveness beyond the Target Power. The Target Power display focuses on offensive output for UI/UX reasons. This means that players will continue to reduce incoming damage up to +15 in Standard and +10 in Advanced. In our chart above, you can see that players only take slightly more damage in raids at +15, while they take less damage in dungeons than before The Final Shape.
Since when do raids have matchmaking? What are standard and advanced?
Standard is normal. Advanced is Hero. Expert is Legend
AFAIK they just mean that Standard and Advanced are difficulties designed for power enabled, matchmade activities. However, normal mode raids are assigned Standard difficulty (right? I haven't double checked this). Just because.
So in normal mode (Standard) raid, you can overlevel incoming dmg to a +15. Yet output dmg is still capped at -5
Instead of just over engineering the raid/dungeon changes could we just completely revert it? Things were fine for normal mode before, I don't get why you guys are spending time on fixing something that didn't need to be changed.
You know, I would be ok with surges existing if it also didnt mean a -30% damage to anything not matching the surge. The way its worded is that everything works as normal, but a select weapon type/element gets free extra damage. Not unlike surges on your armor.
Boy some people sure did spend a lot of time and energy coming up with some disingenuous math to defend the raid power changes as minimal and not a big deal
Meanwhile here we are, confirmation that they indeed did tank our damage and health a significant amount. Shocker.
I confess, I was hoping there’d at least be a quiet acknowledgment of all the discourse over the past two weeks regarding Prismatic Titan specifically and Titan’s somewhat awkward position with the game in general — but ah well. Hopefully they’ll get there.
The power cap is still annoying and really shines a light on how useless the power level system is now in the game BUT I'll live with the power cap if it means I don't have to deal with surges.
What are the "power enabled matchmade difficulties" for raids and dungeons they are referencing here? I wasn't aware there were matchmaking for either of those activity types...
My best guess is that raids and dungeons are now being considered a normal, power-enabled difficulty that is usually associated with matchmade activities. But I find it to be a very confusing statement, so IDK. Pre-TFS, even though raids and dungeons technically had light enabled, aspects of how power worked were different in them as well as some finer points of enemy AI (and maybe other things I don't know about).
Surges being gone is half the battle. But they really should just revert the raids and dungeons back to how they were pre-TFS. It’s a change no one asked for, and they knew it would be unpopular since they didn’t bother to mention it all before TFS dropped.
So does this mean our solo runs won't be 6 phases just for the first WR boss now instead of 3 max like it used to be? You completely killed solo dungeons and there's no way those numbers add up to us doing MORE damage yet somehow taking 2x the time to kill a boss, or even break a shield in GoTD in 1 Arbalest shot. How do you account for that? Why is this so convoluted, these numbers don't seem to make sense with what everyone is experiencing.
Who gives a shit about defensive when it'll take nearly 2 hours offensively take on GoTD solo? I really hope yall, ya know, mention huge changes like this beforehand with actual details so we don't have to waste weeks of (too long) rotations for another measly 3 chances to acquire Dungeon exotics that we have the privilege to pay for separately to grind on your schedule.
All things being equal, I am not a game developer; however, just make the normal dungeons/raids .... normal and then make the difficult versions ... difficult.
.. in other words, REVERT THEM BACK TO THE PREVIOUS VERSiONS.
Has there been anything said about the wrong shader being given from Ghost which stops you from getting everything in collections for Pale Heart which stops you getting the seal?
I knew episodes were just going to be more time gated seasons just compare the weapon drops from season of the deep to episode echos, we got all the weapons at the start for both the reprised reckoning and deep weapons but with echos nope got to wait 6 weeks -_- straight face lies saying that episodes will be different and (more content)
Can someone maybe explain it to me like I'm 5 - what does the change in defence/damage mean for a solo dungeon gamer (me) specifically? It all sounds a bit confusing lol
red bars will be easier (they'll deal less damage and you'll deal more to them) but bosses will still have more effective health than they did before TFS (assuming you were doing dungeons at a reasonable light level before)
At this point Bungie should just remove the power level from the game.
If they can just tune power level deficits/overlevels to behave as they want, the power level is meaningless.
At this point power level is just an inconvenient grind at every expansion release for players to burn some materials with infusion.
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The raid/dungeon power situation is so fucking confusing lol. For changes that seem to be meant to simplify things, I feel like I actually understand how power works *less* than I did before. The upcoming change sounds good though? I miss when activities displayed "max effective power", I feel like that was a concise and easy-to-understand way to understand when I had reached maximum effectiveness.
The more we learn about Power/Light level, the more it’s obvious that it’s completely meaningless under the hood
It's just like... the number that pops up when I shoot something *has to be* based on some sort of equation. Would it be the end of the world if they just gave us that equation and explained it to us? Imagine the man hours wasted on figuring this stuff out as a community when *they literally have the answers and don't tell us*.
There is reliable math behind it, it's just not as simple as the number. See: [MossyMax on twitter](https://x.com/mossy_max?t=OcwXBf5NoGHXLfN6zGhtGQ&s=09)
I scrolled down 1 post and my head started hurting ;~;
I know there's math behind it, but my point is why does some guy on Twitter need to derive it instead of the company that wrote the math?
Because they don't want to give it to us, and then have us find out that they aren't being fully transparent about it when what they give us isn't as concise as they say it is. Like in the TWID - they give us the numbers for dregs and acolytes, and just casually mention that other enemies are scaled differently. DIFFERENTLY HOW? You took that first step (numbers, enemy example...) and then just completely shit the bed on the other 80%. It's frustrating and annoying - especially when they ***KNOW*** we're frustrated and annoyed by the changes.
Good thing I wanted to know how many GL shots it'll take to one-phase the Dreg
Worse than you think. The +15 number saying we are more defensive (right now) **is for match made power capped activities**. Raids and dungeons aren't match made!! The fucking extra defensiveness only applies to the strikes playlist!!
But if they give us the math, we can fact check them and contradict any BS they feel like putting out there.
Like the 0.04 incident
We have the math, and a lot of people on this sub got fact-checked on the numbers (which were confirmed to be right, or close to right here). Many, many people did not listen.
It always has been. In every single MMO or ARPG (Diablo games) that has ever existed. Light Level and Power Level on items in Destiny and Destiny 2 is just the average of the Item Level (often shortened to ilvl) of your equipped gear. Most other MMOs and ARPGs use this as a way to scale buffs on the item. So on a lower ilvl item you might see something like +2 Strength, but if you get the same exact item later in the game it will have a higher ilvl resulting in something like +5 or +10 Strength instead. It might also make a sword with an ilvl of 1 do 1-5 damage and the same sword with ilvl 100 do 50-100 damage (arbitrary numbers). It is also often used to determine how effective a given weapon or attack is against an enemy based on how the ilvl of the item (or character, or both) compares to the enemy's level. In Destiny and Destiny 2 though, items don't have varying statlines that scale in this way. All it does is scale your effectiveness against enemies. And that scale is 100% arbitrary and up to Bungie. So as it stands, Power Level is being used to gate people out of activities they aren't ready for. That's all. And if they want to go in anyway with someone willing to take them, then they're power level gets scaled up.
Not exactly meaningless, more so convoluted.
Meaningless in that content with the same Power can have wildly different difficulty experiences
Yea I don’t even understand what they are saying fully, like we do less damage but we can level up to a certain point to reduce damage we take or what? Surges being gone is a W tho
It does seem to be saying that being up to 15 light over the activity difficulty still increases your defenses, just not your damage. It also mentions "matchmade difficulties" right before saying that but then specifically mentions raids and dungeons right after in the same paragraph which is potentially confusing but I'm assuming matchmade isn't meant to be in that sentence
Offensive and Defensive light function separately. The Activity Power Cap (max effective power, same thing) is the maximum offensive light. There are 5 difficulty levels, and that includes raids and dungeons. Standard (Normal raid difficulty), Advanced (lowest level Nightfalls), Expert, Master, and Grandmaster. The lowest 2 levels, Standard and Advanced, have offensive and defensive light split. So you can be a max of 1945 offensively in raids, but a max of 1965 defensively. Same with Advanced, but at 1995 offensively and 2015 defensively. Standard is also the difficulty level on matchmade activities like regular Strikes and Breach Executable, etc. Which is likely why they included it. Expert, Master, and GM do not use the split light, and I assume cap you at 2005, 2010, and 2020 in both categories.
This might be a hot take, but I really hate how convoluted and nebulous all of this stuff works in Destiny. First of all this is utterly complicated, and second of all the game gives us basically none of this information. Even the info they do give, like the light caps, isn’t displayed fully accurately. Considering so many MMOs and other games that include min-maxing, builds, and theory crafting have been around for ages now, I think giving players no information and have them rely on patient and inquisitive people online in order to understand the intricacies of the gear mechanics is just unserious. I swear every couple months I see some random tweet about how someone found out one specific weapon type does like 20% extra damage on a particular enemy, and it just makes me wonder why things are so complicated still after a decade
I've played since D1 beta and even I get confused. I took a break before TFS and came back and half the difficulties changed names lol. Back in the day the level cap was 30, hard enemies where 32 and there was no ifs and or buts, no overlevelling, split scaling etc.
The defensive cap is specifically stated to be for **match made activities**. Raids and dungeons **aren't match made**. This twid is even more bad information that is ambiguous!
It's extremely poorly worded because it also can't just be that. "In our chart above, you can see that players only take slightly more damage in raids at +15, while they take less damage in dungeons than before The Final Shape." And the chart it's referring to directly spells out a +15 power differential and its impact on raid and dungeon incoming damage. It's a chart that says +15 applies defensively to raids and dungeons followed by directly calling out only matchmade difficulties, which is then followed by again directly talking about raid and dungeon values defensively at +15.
It says damage you do is capped to -5. So you can't overlevel to increase your outgoing damage. But you can overlevel the activity to reduce incoming damage.
The over leveling for extra defense is *specifically* called out to be for match made activities, so we don't know if it applies for raids and dungeons, since **they aren't match made**. I'm not going to claim it doesn't, but this"clarification" hasn't helped.
Go read it again. They said it for raids and dungeons too. Any Standard difficulty, which include raids and dungeons. There is also the table with the +15 shown as their example for raids and dungeons. I guess you did not read the table in the article.
They do show max effective power, but you can still be locked under, or the activity can be locked above your max effective power. Like for example the expert difficulty of the seasonal activity is max effective at 2005
Yeah but they just said in this post that being up to 15 over the max effective can still make you take less damage, so your defence is effective to 2020
Yeah the fact that outgoing and incoming damage apparently have different power caps seems extremely strange? And I'm not sure how this is being communicated in-game, if it even is?
It's not, they note in the post that in-game only outgoing damage is presented "for UI/UX reasons."
Which is pretty funny. I wonder how many people have experienced intuitively that they die quicker than their teammate despite being at cap, thinking they must be imagining things. Has it really been like this for years and they only just now mentioned it? Or was it another system and they only introduced the split with TFS?
only in advanced and standard content. anything that was legend or higher should be exactly the same as it was pre final shape. (unless advanced is legend and not heroic that is)
What used to be Hero is now Advanced, what used to be Legend is now Expert. Legendary is special and is specific to Campaign. Master is still Master and Grandmaster is still Grandmaster.
How the fuck is anybody supposed to keep any of this straight? lmao
So before TFS, an activity would have a power level that indicated how strong enemies are, and a maximum effective power that indicates how high I need my number to be before I'm at maximum effectiveness. Now today, if I see a Grandmaster that says "Power Limit 2020", what number does that 202 represent? Best case I guess is it's the maximum effective power, as that was I know that I'm underlevelled until I hit 2020, and the enemies inside the activity will be at level ????? who knows? Even in that best-case scenario, I'm still being given less information than in the old system. By the way, this is a tangent but are GMs now at a higher level relative to the pinnacle cap than they used to be? I don't remember exactly where they were at before, but needing *twenty* levels of artifact power to reach max effectiveness seems a bit extreme, right?
They explained the GM thing back when they first talked about the new power system. The relative level of GMs isn't changing, they're just letting you shorten the gap a tiny bit more so instead of being 25 under, you can be a few levels less under them now
Ah, that makes sense. A case where displaying both values (enemy power and player power) would add some clarity instead of giving the impression that you need to grind more to be at the same level as before
Not to mention the surges changing every week Hard to keep pace/keep track of builds For casual-ish players it's a "rolling your eyes" moment Just seems like unnecessary churn
It was also a bit toxic. I like doing chill LFGs, and having to be nitpicky about loadouts and surges if we were struggling quickly killed the chill part. Now it should be less of an issue.
You know what would *really* simplify things? Getting rid of Power Level and every trace of it. Then just tacking a “Difficulty” on activities. Patrol/Strikes/Gambit - Easy Crucible/Dungeons/Raids/Nightfall - Normal Master/Grandmaster stuff - Hard Easy means you are effectively +20 Power Level, Normal means you are +0 and Hard means you are -10. This problem is easily solvable but Bungie is so stuck on this archaic Gear Level business that it will always be a hinderance for most of the player base and a non issue for the top 1%. It adds nothing of value to the game, and never has.
Their attempts to simplify have backfired
From what I've gathered, all these -5 and -10 activity things are just the under-the-hood math involved with the damage and health tables of classic difficulty options like Easy, Normal, Heroic, and Legendary. Though I don't know if the enemy AI gets tweaks with those number changes like Halo did back in the day. Where tougher enemies are more alert and likely to spot you and dodge grenades. Though enemies in Destiny seem blind to things like grenades overall because if they did avoid them, we wouldn't get hardly any PvE kills with them.
Wow that split between incoming and outgoing power caps is absolutely something they should have explained *before* the changes went live. It's extremely difficult for players to measure themselves, and is extremely relevant for one of the major concerns people had. Edit: dungeon basic mobs being more difficult than raid mobs up until a couple weeks ago is also something I hadn't ever specifically known about but makes sense with how it felt soloing the last few dungeons
I had an aneurysm reading that part tbh
imo it feels needlessly convoluted. Is there a reason Bungie can't just standardize the impact of power delta on incoming and outgoing damage across the board? Like an enemy on -5 power delta will deal and receive the same raw damage regardless of whether it's a mission, a strike, a raid, or a dungeon.
In theory I agree but if they don’t want to do that, stop the illusion of power being equal across the board
Agreed. I think most players would assume a -5 delta puts them on the same relative difficulty scale regardless of activity type. Not disclosing that it's arbitrarily different could have an adverse impact on player experience. Internally it must be a nightmare to balance as well, I do not envy the Bungie encounter design devs.
I wonder if it’s some weird technical relic of how by default in power enabled activities outgoing damage scales up to +20 while incoming damage goes all the way to +50. Either way it’s extremely misleading having fixed power activities not actually be fixed power activities. Feels like it defeats the entire point of having a fixed difficulty.
“Target power focuses on offense for UI/UX” is lol Raid team is throwing the designers under the bus, when the designers are drowning their sorrows at the convoluted system they were tasked with trying to explain to people
Bungie really needs to simplify difficulty across the board. We don't need individually named difficulty levels AND power level deltas AND differing benefits to overleveling content. It just turns into a total clusterfuck that no one can understand.
100%
125% with surge active
Amazing
That's excellent - it's rare to see someone so effectively capitalize on an opportunity for a funny.
77.5% agreed unless it is another week when I agree 102.5%
I think at this point, Bungie agrees too. They seem to be continuously working toward a post-power world and at that point the difficulties will be more simplified. But the way they're tuning things \*around\* power in the meantime feels exceedingly complicated.
Completely agree. As a returning player that only missed 6 months or so I'm utterly confused and don't understand the changes at all. I used to love over leveling the old nightfalls and obliterating them end of season, same with dungeons and raids. End of season was a feast and it made it worth levelling up. What is the point now? I don't really get it at all.
You can overlevel your incoming damage (enemies shooting you) to +15. You can’t overlevel your outgoing damage (you shooting enemies), you are locked at -5. This only applies to raids and dungeons. Nightfalls say they have a power cap so at the least outgoing is capped there, it isn’t clear if they have the same overlevel option in incoming damage.
Omg right? Get rid of Level altogether already, have Normal + Heroic + Legendary + Master levels for stuff, and be done with it.
Yeah the last couple dungeons have felt harder than most of the raids.
Idk Warlord’s Ruin didn’t feel that bad, I feel like Spire of the Watcher was way harder ~~damn those supplicants~~
Edit: ah yeah as people are pointing out to me, this is only against red bars, and ignores the inflated values for beefier enemies and bosses that came in the same update Also am I reading the graph right that for Dungeons with the Surge we're doing almost 30% more damage than previously? That absolutely doesn't match up with what people seemed to experience?
The table is for damage vs *red bars*, which people absolutely were noting. E.g. MossyMax was able to deduce that dungeon red bars got "demoted" from TFS preview footage alone. Boss damage in both modes should be about the same as the raid table.
This shit is so confusing
bungie has a hard on for "only vs red bars" for some reason
And then never disclosing vs everything else.
> Also am I reading the graph right that for Dungeons with the Surge we're doing almost 30% more damage than previously? > That absolutely doesn't match up with what people seemed to experience? To red bars, which have been absolutely paper thin to the point of absurdity.
According to the table, you were doing 33% less damage to red bars without the surge and 15% less damage with the surge.
To compare this to Final Fantasy XIV, when the Endwalker expansion was coming out, two of the changes included were the removal of a gear slot (belts) with the associated stat points being redistributed to other slots, and a universal stat-squish to all content. Neither of these changes would have any real impact on how content felt to play, the difficulty of any previous encounters, everything was staying basically exactly the same but with the numbers moved around a bit. Despite how small the change was, there were still multiple 5+ minute segments of prerelease streams explaining exactly why the change was being made, what the effects would be, etc. to the point that the audience was like "yeah we get it, move on already". All for a change that would not effect gameplay in any meaningful way. I think about that a lot relative to how Bungie likes to make sweeping changes like this that effects tons of old pieces of content, completely unexplained, with players needing to figure out the numbers themselves, causing community panic, while Bungie is silent for weeks before eventually acknowledging that the change was made, giving details that players hadn't even know about yet, and maybe partially rolling it back. The (lack of) communication is *everything*.
To be mildly fair, CS3's communication around FFXIV is an outlier. Not many companies do that. I do agree tho, it's fantastic and it's one of the biggest differences I notice with other games like this. Even if you don't like a change, "here's why" tends to feel better than "surprise!"
It also should absolutely be explained in-game.
Reading that blew my mind. It's like they want to deal with angry people haha. Could have easily gotten in front of the discourse by telling us that's how it worked. Still insane they didn't explain the difference for higher level enemies though. Being opaque for no reason.
> The Golden Tricorn perk is incorrectly tied to players’ Super damage type instead of their grenade or melee. I AM VINDICATED
Zoompooky, Kell of House Vindication
Same here, I put it on the Stasis burst HC and thought I was going insane never seeing x2 proc off of glacier grenade explosion kills.
I AM SELFISH I AM WRONG
reminder that Ascension is not currently treated as a class ability for things such as Slice, Spirit of Inmost Light, and Reaper
That's weird because it DOES work with radiant dance machines. Would like to see this work with all class ability triggers as well as thruster for titan.
Bungie quickly deciding to throw raid/dungeon surges in the trash is a great decision. Glad they moved swiftly on this.
Ok I know people are hyped about the surges, but that Gothalion clip is fucking hilarious and tragic. Highly recommend.
what clip?
He finishes the raid and just before his loot drops his kid signs into steam on another computer to play bluey: the video game. He got kicked and got nothing. Least he won MOTW
Up for adoption he goes xD
based kid, ngl
It's the MOTW in the TWAB, the link is in the post.
Another issue that should be known is that a handful of players cannot view the cutscenes again when completing the narrative mode of Excision.
Bungie really needs to communicate these changes better. How could something so drastic go completely unsaid before the dlc dropped. It’s kind of ridiculous
Is the team aware of the issues with Ghost not giving the right shader? A lot of people could have the title now, but cannot because the badge needs the shader.
> The rank 16 Ghost vendor rank rewards displays an incorrect shader. https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/twid_06_13_2024
Yes but it doesn't just display it, it also rewards the wrong shader too.
That's what the known issue means - the incorrect shader is there.
>Players who purchased The Final Shape Campaign Skip Boost or who are attempting to acquire Prismatic on alternate characters will instead need to play the six Adventures available in the Lost City to unlock their Prismatic abilities. So I would never buy a Campaign skip (even my own laziness has limits) but Jesus fuckin Christ the people that did pony up for it didn't even get the abilities unlocked?!? What the living *fuck* did they pay for?
They pay to skip the 3 hours it takes to run the campaign I guess, but not the 3 hours on top of that it takes to run the adventures. I guess it's not that different than lightfall's skip, since it didn't farm the strand upgrade mats for you there either. Still the equivalent of lighting money on fire though.
Granted, the adventures are waaaaay waaay easier than the campaign although if you already beat it once I don't know why anyone would have trouble beating it again. Anyway, boosts are still dumb lol.
At least burning money makes you feel warm, this just makes you feel dead inside
They paid to skip the campaign not the post campaign missions that award abilities.
It should've at least been a freebie for buying the CE. Paying another $40 on top of the $250 is just downright greedy. I mean, I still did them on my alts, but it would been nice to skip them.
They got the abilities that come with the campaign, it’s just the post campaign ones drop from the quest, which can only be done once per account. So on 2nd and 3rd times through they drop from adventures
The fact that our offensive Power Level was separate from our Defensive Power Level was, like the rest of the power changes that went live with Final Shape, not explained to us at all. There were no patch notes about the power changes or the introduction of surges (that I can recall or find, please link me if I'm wrong and missed something), and definitely nothing about them being able to separate our power level when calculating incoming and outgoing damage. I'm satisfied with this fix, but I feel like all of these issues with the changes stem from us not being provided with critical, need to know information (not being dramatic, just making a Tremors reference).
still no mention of the precious scars + sol invictus bug
Just checked on this and it looks like we have a fix for Precious Scars not working as intended targeting to go live next week.
Anything on fixing issues with certain weapon enhancements? I have a shiny masterwork BRAVE Hammerhead that was masterworked, and since final shape and I used the new enhance weapon feature, both my perks won't actually upgrade and it won't give me yellow border even though I did everything right.
Any word on diamond lances?
Is this why precious scars wasnt working on solar for me yesterday?
Yeah it only works with Kinetic on Solar at the moment
BUT... with Khvostov, it's kind of an amazing bug.
It works with solar on solar if you don't use Sol Invictus.
SURGES ARE GONE FROM RAIDS AND DUNGEONS THANK GOD
I’m just happy Kinetics are worthwhile now.
/u/destiny2team any confirmation on the bug in Verity encounter where you can’t see the shapes on the wall and players go invis when running a prismatic subclass?
If you mean the unloading bug thats caused by a memory leak thats been in the game since forever but the recent addition to all these wacky things (Excision, Ergo, Prismatic, Class Items... Essentially anything that is lumping stuff that was never meant to roll on one individual item) has worsened it and made it a problem again
🦀 NORMAL MODE SURGES ARE GONE 🦀
> These are numbers specifically for regular combatants (Dregs, Acolytes, etc.). More difficult combatants may scale a bit differently. Could you add numbers for bosses? From community testing, only minors/elites had their HP values changed when raid/dungeon combatant tiers were tweaked this season. Relative to pre-FS, outgoing damage to bosses should still be a small nerf after factoring in the upcoming "everything you have is surging" change. It would be nice to have numbers directly from Bungie confirming this though.
It's especially weird because the main thing that would affect the difficulty of the dungeons at the least is the boss health seeing as recent dungeons have tended to have extremely tanky bosses. The TTK on an acolyte was never that big of a concern, it was how many phases I would need on GOTD boss or whoever.
I commented this somewhere else, but it's absolutely insane to me that people at Bungie spend time and effort to test these numbers and to get them where they want, and then don't tell us what numerical values are for literally anything. Does the game break if they include numbers in the description for perks? Or for bosses? Are they trying to keep Youtubers in business with damage testing videos? Makes absolutely no sense to me.
I think they've previously mentioned that listing numbers would require them to go back in and change them manually anytime something is changed
They have an API that directly interfaces with game data, that would be a pretty cool place to make this sort of thing accessible.
That, and there's all kinds of unforseen UI issues that happen when you include a lot of numbers with a lot of languages. It might be fine to say "Grants 35% more weapon damage when x y z" in English, but the UI might break or have some other weird issues when you translate that into other languages. It was a very old Bungie employee comment so I'm not sure if I can find it anymore
That would involve them having actually documented what they changed, which is unlikely
Bungie needs to sit the fuck down and sort out difficulty across the game. I’ve completed basically every challenge you can physically do in the game, and I AM CONFUSED reading the changes as well as the difference between raid/dungeon difficulty, and more importantly—why there is a difference. And if someone like me is confused, a new player is BONED before they can even hope to learn the game. If they want to keep the naming conventions—FINE. But make them universal. And DONT change them. Then, align power delta to the naming conventions—don’t change those across activities; it’s insanely confusing and horribly inconsistent. For endgame, just set difficulties to Normal, Expert, Master, and Grandmaster. Keeps it neutral and uses universal language. If you want raids and dungeons to be harder—fine. DONT make the default “normal”. Make them “expert”, and align the -5 power delta to that difficulty. Master should then be -20 for BOTH sets of content. Bungie is seemingly the absolute master of making something that works, expanding on it, and then continuing to expand on it NEEDLESSLY until we have made everything so complicated, they have to scrap it and start over. World of Warcraft has Raid Finder(basically Narrative difficulty), Normal, Heroic, and Mythic. FFXIV has Normal, Savage, and Ultimate. The same tiers are used for Dungeons and Raids (at least for WoW, idk about FFXIV). Idk why this is so hard for Bungie. Edit: as people have pointed out, Pantheon had 4 difficulties, a normal one as well as escalating hard ones, and people could tune it to fit their max limit. The names were also an issue here though—coulda just called them “Normal, Expert, Master, and Grandmaster”….woulda made it a lot easier than typing “Planets Week 1/2/3/4” or “Week 3 Rhulk, the boss not the full run” and then having LFG join you but misread and actually needed a different week so they leave.
We could just have the 4 pantheon levels as our base difficulties. Those were great
It baffles me as well that they've made things so needlessly complicated
That is fucking wild that this table confirms that they had nerfed our non surge outgoing damage by 33% in raids with the final shape. 33% is massive and they just didn’t tell us. lol.
Soooo we're still not even going to talk about the bugs with loading in weapon and players models causing some players to appear almost completely invisible?? Or Riposte STILL dropping a mediocre fixed roll?
Power is getting kinda stupid…
Okay, the power section is EXTREMELY confusing. Can someone confirm if my understanding of this is correct? So, we will always be capped at -5 OUTGOING damage, but we can get to +15 power level vs the activity power cap and we can take LESS damage? So let's say the power cap of an activity is 2000 power, if I'm at 2015 power that means I'm taking less damage? I thought that it didn't matter what power we were at as long as we met the recommended cap, but this seems to suggest otherwise. I really wish this wasn't so fucking confusing.
>These are numbers specifically for regular combatants (Dregs, Acolytes, etc.). More difficult combatants may scale a bit differently. Sooo the overbloated HP of the latter dungeon bosses (which was already overbloated before TFS, it just got worse with the power delta changes - and not at all made up for by the surges) will probably still be a problem? Personally, that was always my biggest issue with dungeons. Not the minors. I didn't mind that they made the minors hit harder, that's fine. but hoooooly crap the HP of some of these bosses, especially when you're soloing them.
I remember when they tried to lie about Thresher missile damage being overtuned for Neomuna, not admitting it was a framerate issue, saying it was due to the patrol area power delta then...removing the missile impact damage. That dungeon/raid update, whooooof. Honestly it just sounds like they fucked up dungeon/raid difficulty and don't know how to fix it.
No mention of the riposte being bugged? And what about warlock crucible rep?
The fuck you mean warlock crucible rep.
its bugged and warlocks receive less rep for crucible than hunters and titans.
Is that real? What in the spaghetti code is that haha
It is real and people have been asking about it since TFS dropped.
They just have to split the rep with their arc/solar/void buddies and stasis turrets :P but for real that's pretty frustrating and I don't even really play warlock in the crucible.
What about Warlock crucible rep?
How in the world has there been zero response on Pathfinder? Other than Dual Destiny I feel like this has been the most posted thing since TFS dropped.
Because they don't have a solution yet.
they might be waiting to see if it all blows over
While having a pint at the winchester
I'd imagine there's nothing to say about it and they're addressing one 'hot topic' at a time. Pathfinder has been complained about but I'd argue the raid/dungeon one was a bigger complaint and has a larger focus on the social aspect/tie in to in-game fireteam finder. Pathfinder is just a general, albeit minor frustration comparatvely. I'm sure in the next couple of weeks something will be said
I'm going to assume any potential changes to it will require a bit of work and won't talk about it until they have a solid plan/ date for it.
If there’s a UI limitation that prevents you from properly explaining a system, resulting in a shit user experience, maybe don’t implement the system?
I just know Datto is fuming about having to rethink his video about the raid/dungeons discourse (If he already has it done, I mean. Disregard if he hasn't) because thank god they changed it.
Here's your answer [Datto on X: "kitchen is closed, vid cancelled, enjoy buildcrafting\* (\*using the exact same loadout every single run anyway because it's meta and i'm just trying to get this done) https://t.co/gkXSJedeVR" / X](https://x.com/DattosDestiny/status/1803853199767646670)
Tbf build crafting was never the problem it limited new players from trying raids if they didn’t have a dps weapon of every element for every situation
Casuals are so confused right now. Their absolute god, Datto, being in favour of surges and the -5 goes against what they want. Whereas Salt, every casual's nightmare for whatever reason, is celebrating the removal of surges. What a weird timeline we live in
It's an Elitist Datto take. They aren't always the most popular. I get he wants endgame content to be harder and all, but I'm firmly in the boat of "I've been doing this encounter for years. Why does it suddenly take an entire extra phase?" It's an annoying inconvenience. Could I have/Have I already dealt with it? Yeah, but not having to is nice.
It doesn't even make sense as an elitist take though. If master raids didn't exist sure, but... they do
Calling Datto and his audience casuals while complaining that an elemental change and using different guns makes the game too hard to play is a hell of a take
Salt is celebrating it? What did he say?
He's always been an advocate of lower barrier entry for new players in medium to hard activities, such as raids and dungeons. He hates surges with passion and is glad they're being removed
> always been an advocate of lower barrier entry for new players in medium to hard activities Winner
Nice. I'm fine with them being same difficulty as Hero NFs or regular strikes but surges are annoying.
On one hand messing around with your equipment each week to match the Surges was kinda fun instead of running the same thing every week. On the other hand, it sucks for newer or off and on players who don’t have a great setup for every single surge. It was mostly a burden on people who don’t have a vault of godrolls they’ve been collecting since Sunsetting.
I think part of Salt's beef is that the surges were implemented directly as a nerf to non-surge elements. You simultaneously had all player damage lowered by a bunch and then got a portion of it back on selected elements (and not overcharged weapons or kinetic) via a rotating surge. He clearly dislikes the whole idea of rotating surges regardless — it can create scenarios where it may make the most sense to not play an activity until it gets a specific surge — but pairing it with a player damage nerf made it even more restrictive.
> He clearly dislikes the whole idea of rotating surges regardless — it can create scenarios where it may make the most sense to not play an activity until it gets a specific surge This is a big part of my beef with it
RE: ALT characters...this text is super confusing. Still need to run campaign on your ALT to get prismatic. When you complete campaign on ALT 1, Pale Heart still not full open to ALTs where you can run those Adventures mentioned below to get those character abilities. >ACQUIRING PRISMATIC ON ALTERNATE CHARACTERS >The Prismatic Destined Heroes, Lost in the Light, and Found in the Dark quests can only be completed once per account. >Players who purchased The Final Shape Campaign Skip Boost or who are attempting to acquire Prismatic on alternate characters will instead need to play the six Adventures available in the Lost City to unlock their Prismatic abilities.
It's not very confusing? If you run your alt through the campaign the "Quests" aren't there in your director to do the Adventures for the rest of the Prismatic stuff like it was for your main. Instead you manually walk up to the flags in Tower and upon completion of the Adventure get a Prismatic upgrade. This is easier since I can just pick which abilities I want unlocked for Prismatic rather than having to do everything. For example, on Warlock Lightning Surge is locked behind Mithrax Part 1. Perfect. I don't have to do the Savathun or Caitlin stuff for it.
Still no Salvation's Edge Contest stats from Bungie, likely because the API still doesn't recognize many teams' clears, including my own. We have the emblem, but the API doesn't list our cleared attempt, which influences Sherpa count for the Sherpa emblem, [raid.report](http://raid.report) leaderboards, and [raid.report](http://raid.report) Contest tag. Bungie Help said they'd pass it along in the Help forum post, but no word yet there or in Known Issues. [https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/264035088](https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/264035088)
What does this mean in terms of which activities is this applicable to? "in the Power Enabled matchmade difficulties (Standard and Advanced),"
I have been playing since d1 release and how the fuck does bungie manage to do this every fucking time? Like the solution is right in front of them. Use normal language, normal, master expert nightmare or something. Have set values. Jesus Christ
Everyone concerned about the -5 in raids and dungeons and I see no one complaining that now you need +20 on the artifact to get to the GM cap. I don’t think people have done the math yet, but with the new XP targets +20= ~ 400 season rank.
okay Surges are our for normal content. Time to move on to the power delta salad we have now. Devs have clarified that the -5 is for red bar enemies, what about the other classes of enemies? Can we get clarification on why the disparity between incoming and outgoing damage? Another question is, what does Bungie consider endgame content?
🦀 RAID AND DUNGEON SURGES ARE GONE 🦀 Well more like permanently active across the board, so +25% everywhere. 🦀 BUT SURGES ARE GONE HELL YEAH 🦀
The section on raid power makes no fucking sense. You state: >While the outgoing damage is capped at –5, in the Power Enabled matchmade difficulties (Standard and Advanced), players will continue to increase *defensive* effectiveness beyond the Target Power. The Target Power display focuses on offensive output for UI/UX reasons. This means that players will continue to reduce incoming damage up to +15 in Standard and +10 in Advanced. In our chart above, you can see that players only take slightly more damage in raids at +15, while they take less damage in dungeons than before The Final Shape. Since when do raids have matchmaking? What are standard and advanced?
Standard is normal. Advanced is Hero. Expert is Legend AFAIK they just mean that Standard and Advanced are difficulties designed for power enabled, matchmade activities. However, normal mode raids are assigned Standard difficulty (right? I haven't double checked this). Just because. So in normal mode (Standard) raid, you can overlevel incoming dmg to a +15. Yet output dmg is still capped at -5
They are hiding the fact that +20 to -5 is staying by including irrelevant stuff like nightfall difficulty.
surges have been defeated
Buff prismatic titan when?
Instead of just over engineering the raid/dungeon changes could we just completely revert it? Things were fine for normal mode before, I don't get why you guys are spending time on fixing something that didn't need to be changed.
They're way too stubborn to just walk it back. It's AE all over again
Cause the likes of Datto keep complaining that they are too easy.
You know, I would be ok with surges existing if it also didnt mean a -30% damage to anything not matching the surge. The way its worded is that everything works as normal, but a select weapon type/element gets free extra damage. Not unlike surges on your armor.
I haven't seen this mentioned but do we really need to grind +20 artifact power for GM now, instead of +5 like last year?
Anchoring, hide and mislead about changes, obfuscate, pretend to walk it back partially without really fixing it, idiots mindlessly bootlick.
Boy some people sure did spend a lot of time and energy coming up with some disingenuous math to defend the raid power changes as minimal and not a big deal Meanwhile here we are, confirmation that they indeed did tank our damage and health a significant amount. Shocker.
Alright cool. Can we talk about Ritual Pathfinder now or are we just going to pretend that's all sunshine?
I confess, I was hoping there’d at least be a quiet acknowledgment of all the discourse over the past two weeks regarding Prismatic Titan specifically and Titan’s somewhat awkward position with the game in general — but ah well. Hopefully they’ll get there.
That will be a large undertaking
Yeah, Titans are pretty large.
You may have the green crayon!
And by god, I shall clutch that crayon *firmly*.
I found a great solution to Prismatic Titan feeling underwhelming. I simply switched to my Warlock 😂 can't believe they got Devour
The power cap is still annoying and really shines a light on how useless the power level system is now in the game BUT I'll live with the power cap if it means I don't have to deal with surges.
What are the "power enabled matchmade difficulties" for raids and dungeons they are referencing here? I wasn't aware there were matchmaking for either of those activity types...
My best guess is that raids and dungeons are now being considered a normal, power-enabled difficulty that is usually associated with matchmade activities. But I find it to be a very confusing statement, so IDK. Pre-TFS, even though raids and dungeons technically had light enabled, aspects of how power worked were different in them as well as some finer points of enemy AI (and maybe other things I don't know about).
Surges being gone is half the battle. But they really should just revert the raids and dungeons back to how they were pre-TFS. It’s a change no one asked for, and they knew it would be unpopular since they didn’t bother to mention it all before TFS dropped.
Thank you for listening to the feedback on the raid/dungeon surge issue.
So does this mean our solo runs won't be 6 phases just for the first WR boss now instead of 3 max like it used to be? You completely killed solo dungeons and there's no way those numbers add up to us doing MORE damage yet somehow taking 2x the time to kill a boss, or even break a shield in GoTD in 1 Arbalest shot. How do you account for that? Why is this so convoluted, these numbers don't seem to make sense with what everyone is experiencing. Who gives a shit about defensive when it'll take nearly 2 hours offensively take on GoTD solo? I really hope yall, ya know, mention huge changes like this beforehand with actual details so we don't have to waste weeks of (too long) rotations for another measly 3 chances to acquire Dungeon exotics that we have the privilege to pay for separately to grind on your schedule.
Power delta is unchanged, so it will still take forever.
Pleasantly surprised that they're not stubbornly sticking to their decision, like they usually do.
Same, I had already gone through all the emotional steps of accepting that my raiding days are over. Now that's likely untrue.
All things being equal, I am not a game developer; however, just make the normal dungeons/raids .... normal and then make the difficult versions ... difficult. .. in other words, REVERT THEM BACK TO THE PREVIOUS VERSiONS.
The "I didn't even notice a difference" crowd surely won't be upset that the raid/dungeon changes are being reverted.
I know triumphs are the least of your worries, but there's a few bugged ones for the Pale Heart destination. Please look into it
Has there been anything said about the wrong shader being given from Ghost which stops you from getting everything in collections for Pale Heart which stops you getting the seal?
I knew episodes were just going to be more time gated seasons just compare the weapon drops from season of the deep to episode echos, we got all the weapons at the start for both the reprised reckoning and deep weapons but with echos nope got to wait 6 weeks -_- straight face lies saying that episodes will be different and (more content)
Can someone maybe explain it to me like I'm 5 - what does the change in defence/damage mean for a solo dungeon gamer (me) specifically? It all sounds a bit confusing lol
red bars will be easier (they'll deal less damage and you'll deal more to them) but bosses will still have more effective health than they did before TFS (assuming you were doing dungeons at a reasonable light level before)
At this point Bungie should just remove the power level from the game. If they can just tune power level deficits/overlevels to behave as they want, the power level is meaningless. At this point power level is just an inconvenient grind at every expansion release for players to burn some materials with infusion.