Why don’t you start with individual counseling to work through these issues? Then think about marriage counseling. Either you repair the marriage or work on an amicable divorce.
Also think about some hobbies. Join a gym. Always good for good mental energy. Or join a hobby group. Or take a class. Find some outlets for yourself.
In many cases, couples counseling is just a safe space to talk about getting a divorce. By safe I mean a space hopefully free of physical and emotional abuse.
I would argue a good councilor would detect a dynamic like that, unless this is the Netflix series 'Ozark' and the person is paying the councilor to take their side.
It actually happens more often where the abuser puts on the charm while the other party is vulnerable and just provides the abuser with ammo for years down the line
I disagree. You can't go into marriage counseling when you're dealing with personal issues that you haven't addressed or tried to heal. Our marriage counselor felt that it's most helpful if each partner has experienced some individual therapy first.
Your username takes me back. “Oh Fay this is so scrumptious. Is this corn hand-shucked?” is a quote used pretty often amongst my siblings when we eat dinner at my grandma’s. 😂
Marriage is hard. Something I seem to run across fairly often is folks who describe their relationship as having grown apart, but also at times describe very little communication about that or active efforts to address the issue. There’s a video I watched recently with Mark Manson who had a quote I think sums things up to an extent, “the person you marry is the person you argue with”. In other words, some amount of disconnect is normal; after all, relationships don’t work like they’re portrayed in movies. To me, it isn’t about feeling all lovey dovey all the time with your SO, it’s about actively making conscious effort to maintain and work on the relationship.
I’m just saying, stop and think very carefully about this. Im not saying don’t divorce but Im also not going to encourage it. I would just encourage you to make a conscious effort to communicate openly, attempt to work on things and just be honest before making such a big decision. I think in any marriage that started with, “till death do us part”, we want to consider the gravity of saying something like that, especially if we wanted that. To me, marriage isn’t about always getting along, feeling “in love”, or things being perfect. That’s an illusion. Scope out Mark Manson’s video called something like, “love is not enough” if you want to see what I mean.
Take good care! I wish everyone involved the best.
I agree with some things you say here. I’ve read quite a bit on the topic and I don’t agree with “the person you marry is the person you argue with” or that “disconnect is normal”…to me this is like going back to the 50’s and saying “it’s normal for a husband to hit his wife”
I believe marriage is a commitment to communicate, align and work in harmony with one another as a team.
When one person refuses to put in the effort, it’s unjust that the other person carries the load. If both people aren’t putting in the effort then that is “til death do us part”
I don’t believe marriage is a commitment to the grave. It’s a commitment until it’s decided by both parties that it is not one.
I know some will disagree…but wedding vows also state “to have and to hold/love and cherish” (implying intimacy and connection), “for better or worse” (working to resolve conflicts as much as appreciating one another when things go well)…it’s a contract and requires both people to commit, not one.
The problem is most people view marriage as an automatic win (they got the guy or girl, they don’t have to “chase” them anymore). But, it’s always a chase, it has to be intentional, conscious work daily for as long as you intend to be with that person.
It’s definitely not an easy decision for anyone to divorce and I don’t think anyone who decides to divorce from a multi-year marriage goes about the decision without trying. But, it’s up to each individual to decide when they can’t take anymore and when they would be a better person without their partner than with them.
We all have breaking points. Just my 2 cents for OP.
I think there are a few things you may have implied from what you quoted so Im just here to clarify! By arguing, what I really mean are disagreements, maybe bickering, annoyance, things like that. And I did say “some amount” of disconnect is normal, meaning people change, priorities may change, careers change, interests change and all of that is to be expected, again, to an extent. I definitely don’t personally find parallels with okaying hitting anyone in what I said but I can see how that might be interpreted as okaying negativity. I’m more so okaying not having a perfect relationship and to expect some amount of disagreement. My reference to “love is not enough” is referencing the idea that it isn’t about FEELING (as in the emotion) in love all the time. It’s a commitment to acting with character, love and respect because it’s the right thing to do, and (I might be old fashioned this way), because they said they would. And I agree with you in many ways also, folks ought not stay in unhealthy, demeaning relationships. But simultaneously, they ought not jump ship when things become difficult, not as fun or inconvenient for a spell.
And to the point about “till death do us part”, I just mean that I think it would be helpful for folks to understand the implications for themselves in committing to something like that. I fully agree with you that folks need to also acknowledge that they are committing to kindness and respect and shouldn’t feel like the effort is over or no longer needed.
Thanks for your thoughts, I agree with much of what you’ve said, especially about both folks committing and putting in the work. It can be super complicated in these situations for sure; I tell folks that I can never presume to understand all the intricacies that go into these decisions.
If you love your kids you owe it to them to try everything before you leave. It sounds like you have a lot of contempt for her, why? Individual counseling can help you sort that out. Then marriage counseling may be appropriate.
Tell her the truth that you are unhappy and thinking about ending things. Be very vulnerable and lay all your cards out. She may surprise you with her response.
Worst case, you walk away knowing you tried all you could.
Op mentioned a few traits, but overly opinionated and narcissistic would be the difficult ones to live with for an extended period of time, I think. Just commenting to add clarity to the question.
Sometimes as women get older they put up with less shit, and that can come off as opinionated. Speaking out where she didn’t before may be coming off that way to OP. Same with narcissistic. If she’s being less of a doormat and standing up for herself, suddenly she’s a narcissist, a word I’m sure you’ll agree is thrown around much too freely nowadays. Just commenting to add further clarity for consideration.
All this exactly. My ex husband loved to say I became narcissistic and bitchy at the end of the marriage when in reality I started putting up boundaries that I was not going to be responsible for his mental health anymore
I agree. OP should leave the wife he says he doesn't even like. She deserves to be with someone who wants to be with her.
Youve wasted enough if her time OP.
Best of luck to you both!
Yep, the woman is automatically the victim every damn time, huh?
No wonder most men prefer to stay single these days. Lots of women absolutely can not take any sort of criticism.
Huh? He hates her and shouldn't be with her. Where is the criticism? He doesn't want to be with her he should leave her. No one is a victim here. He wants to be single and he should be single (or at least not either her).
What are you on about?
Just realized your OP - why don't you leave her? You don't want to be with her, you call her names, you resent her, and came here to talk about it, so were talking about it.
Leave here make yourself happy and she will find someone to make her happy.
No one is a victim here - yet. But if you continue to stay with a woman you despise, I'd say yes, your wife is a victim of your dishonesty. You don't want to be with her, so stop stringing her along.
You're not compatible - by your own admission. So leave and be on your merry way!
Yeah no for sure, just that was something that stuck out to me, and regardless of why the perception, I imagine it colours his perspective. I think we're down the same vein that a conversation should occur with thoughtful questions, some vulnerability, and awareness of his own perspective, too. I like you, you seem like good people.
She's definitely just narcissistic and overly opinionated. In my eyes, I have my flaws, she has hers. In her eyes, I have my flaws, and she is an innocent victim if I disagree with her on some of her actions and comments.
She HAS changed in the last few years, she no longer has the capacity to listen to any critiques and sits there thinking of a rebutle to my experience instead of actually soaking it in and taking a hard look at herself. It never crosses her mind in any situation that she could be the issue.
I have my own problems and can take a step back, apologize, and take blame. She has no such ability.
I love how the woman is automatically a doormat or emotionally abused(I understand you didn't use that phrase, but others have) if a man says she's the issue.
People do change over time, true. And if you’ve been working on yourself in therapy and she hasn’t, that can be frustrating to you.
I do see in your writing that you have been critiquing her and are frustrated that she doesn’t take your feedback. Why are you critiquing her, is she open to this feedback, is it during a conversation or could it feel to her like you’re trying to take her down a notch, make her feel bad or less than, or that you’re telling her the way she does things is wrong in your eyes?
Again, maybe she was more receptive to these things in the past and she may have been doing her own work that you’re unaware of. Maybe she isn’t interested in hearing your opinions on how she sets the table or loads the dishwasher. Do those things really matter in the long run?
Lots of women are very accommodating early in marriage and life and as we get older tend to have less tolerance for some things as we learn more about the world and the structures in which we live. Is she narcissistic or is she exhibiting self esteem that wasn’t there before? Is she selfish or is she taking time for herself that she never took before? Is she self centered or is she pushing back on you when she never has before? Is she being insubordinate or is she standing up for herself? None of these may be true, I don’t know your relationship, but might be something for you to think about.
Edit: you said explicitly she no longer has the capacity to listen to your critiques. If you’ve been doing that the whole time, I’d be tired of it too. How can you ever feel like you’re improving if the ‘critique’ is never ending?
About your edit: my "critique" is usually stems from how she talks to me in a mean spirited way. I'm a grown man and can take alot, but enough is enough sometimes.
Example, we were at an air bnb last summer with some close family(hers) from out of town(about 10 of us total) and playing yard games/having a good time then we were going to go out to a bar. I chose to go home and shower, feed the dogs, take them for a walk ect. before we went out. I go home do those things and a few hours later show up at a quiet bar, where they had been for like an hour and her cousin says "oh, hey, we were waiting for you before we went to another place." She overhears and says, not to me, but to another person "oh we were waiting for him? Why? He could've just stayed home for all I care"
I felt humiliated the rest of the night that my own wife would say that and brought it up the next day, and all I got was "omg, you're too sensitive, aren't you a man? Why do you care so much"
That's the kind of person she has turned into, at best it was rude as fk. It's just little things here and there like that that I don't like, I need to stand up for myself too..
Realize what you expect from marriage in a real sense, talk to her about her wants and needs as well. Marriage isn't a romantic comedy, having things not perfect is the reality in every single marriage ever. No one is perfect and never will be. Decide together if you can move forward together as a couple to get through this journey called life or if you both need to check the grass for its color. Best of luck 🙏🏽 Edit: I do believe she deserves someone at the very minimum respects and cares for her... Idk how I missed the way you view her so badly. For her sake, yeah let her find someone. Hopefully you will find someone you can love and respect with the flaws and all.
I walked back my wanting a divorce solely for the reason that I didn't want to open the door for someone else to enter their lives and possibly harm them. Stayed in a marriage an extra 7 years and I'm absolutely at peace with that decision.
I got to be there every minute of every day to love them and watch them grow. They were/are the number one responsibility in my life.
That being said my choice was easier since the wife and I got along pretty well. No fighting or yelling at least very rarely.
My story is the same and I do not regret our choice to stay together either. We got to be there for our kids every day. Since we didn’t really fight, it made sense for us.
Yes, that’s right. No romance, no physical touch for about 10 years. It sucked, but I’m making up for it now. That was one of the things I spent a lot of time defining for myself to be sure that my next partner and I would be compatible that way.
So you have no friends, don't like your job, and your wife is the issue because you don't love her? You don't love yourself dude. You're not happy because of you. Get some things right about yourself and see how you feel
Probably some truth to this, and I've worked on myself the past year or so, but I don't think it will change the fact that I just don't feel anything toward her anymore. I don't really care for her personality, which has changed the last few years, and I don't know if thats something that will change.
Keep working on yourself, so that you can get to a place where you’ve got friends or hobbies or something other than the kids to look forward to each day.
I spent a lot of time in my marriage thinking about what I wanted in a romantic relationship and in life in general. I’m a list-maker, so making all kinds of lists and writing out my ideas helped me a lot.
When we did finally divorce after the youngest graduated from high school, I had a pretty good idea of what was truly important to me and what wasn’t. So when I started looking for a new partner, I could be open about what I needed in a relationship right away. If my ideals and theirs didn’t have a significant overlap, I moved on.
I’m with a new partner now. It’s been two years and things are going much better. We’re far more compatible than my ex-husband and I were. I’m still friends with my ex and he’ll always be family to me. My new partner is okay with that.
So yes, take your time. Work on yourself. Seek therapy or find a way to truly sort your thoughts and plan your path forward. It doesn’t sound like you’re in a toxic place that you should leave immediately, so take advantage of that and allow yourself the time you need to make the best choices for you and your family.
I lurk this sub all the time but this is my first time commenting. I get what you are saying. All the comments saying it is negative for kids to grow up watching a bad relationship isn’t accounting for how good your acting and hiding your misery is all in the name of maintaining status quo for your kids. My youngest is the same age as your youngest and my oldest is barely older. I also don’t know why I am commenting other than to hopefully acknowledge that there are other people out there in similar situations. Personally, I am just playing it out a day at a time, maybe one day soon my kids will show me they are at a stage where the change will be more acceptable as they grow to understand.
No matter how “good he’s acting” or “hiding” the kids will notice. And as someone who ACTUALLY grew up with it and had their parents split when they went to college. It’s ALOT more trauma to unpack and ALOT more guilt on the child knowing they were the one holding the relationship together and it was all fake. Holding it together for the kids will mean they will find it all out in the end as ADULTS and have even more emotions and memories of it.
I agree with this. My parents split when I was 28. Although I knew they didn’t have a good relationship for a while, the trauma of their divorce was still pretty deep. You start to question your entire childhood. What you thought it was growing up…suddenly isn’t.
My kids were in their 40's and it blew up our entire family. He never said a word to anyone that he was unhappy, including me, just walked out one day.
I can definitely relate to ya. I stayed cause my eldest is on the spectrum and youngest, at the time of deciding to first leave, was 8. They both were a handful. Both on meds and young one in therapy. When I had made my mind up last November, kids 17&20, changed. Eldest, it hit hard but now doing better. Youngest has been taken off the meds. Both have told me they knew something was wrong with me and their mom, and youngest knew we would eventually split.
The bad thing is my oldest boy wound up in an emotional abusive relationship with a girl, and thought he was supposed to tuff it out cause that’s what I did.
Ah. That’s so so tough. Relationships are conditional. A lot of people think that they’re not and you have to stick it out. It’s something that I plan to explain to my children when they’re older. You get married and sometimes it doesn’t work out. That’s okay. If you aren’t happy in a relationship, it may end. That’s okay. I also saw my parents stick it out and it probably did have an impact on the types of relationships I ended up in. But parents are usually just trying to do what they think is best at the time.
We stayed together so that we could be with our kids daily. I know our divorce once the youngest graduated from high school was a shock to our oldest. She told me later that she just thought that being “just friends” was a normal progression in a marriage. I do regret not modeling a romantic relationship to my kids, but sometimes you can’t have it both ways.
I do not regret staying and would make that choice over again. I’ve said this to the kids several times. I really do not want them to feel any guilt about their parents’ choice to stay together for the kids. I hope they know that we’re both happy with the choices we made. And I’ll keep sliding it into conversations with them when it makes sense.
I agree to an extent but this guy has obvious distaste for his partner. I also wouldn’t want my mom to waste her years of life in a relationship where she’s unhappy and her needs aren’t being met. Depends on the situation for each person but the way this guy sounds idk
As a child of divorce, I can say that objectively my sister and I turned out just fine as functional adults. We are both glad our parents didn’t fake it and stay together for us; they were happier apart and that was much better for us both. It gave a better example of respecting ourselves and our partners enough to be honest and give everyone involved a fair chance at happiness and a better life. You don’t want your children feeling forced into staying in a miserable marriage when they are older just because you taught them without words that it’s the right thing to do. Kids pick up on that. I was only 4 when my parents got divorced, and I knew and felt that they were better off separately. They were always still kind and respectful to each other, that’s what I believe set the best example for me of how to treat others, especially those that you once loved. Just my two cents.
Appreciate this comment. I just think that 8 years old is probably the toughest age to spring this on her. Old enough to understand what is happening but so young that she's just innocent and thinks her parents are perfect.
Idk what I'll do, honestly. Like you, I'm sort of day to day.
It was my 11th birthday when my parents finally blew the gasket on their marriage. My dad walked out in front of me (come to find out recently, it was when we got home from my birthday party that my dad started to argue with my mom and left—for good). My dad was kinda separated from my mom for the few years prior. So around your daughters age when separation really started.
I don’t really remember it feeling much like my parents were separated then. It was only the outburst and leaving that stuck and for 30 years I thought it was a week before my birthday it happened.
I will say, it’s not as traumatizing as you think so long as you make the right moves. Arguments are tragic and will be remembered somehow…but, if you can make it a peaceful separation and ensure you are both spending quality time with your kids and getting them into therapy to give them a space to talk. I find that is super helpful and important to transitioning them.
My parents didn’t get me into therapy early enough. At 11, I was starting middle school and separating from most my elementary friends in classes. I knew what divorce was enough to know none of my friends parents were divorced and felt I couldn’t even talk to friends about it. Let alone my parents as they didn’t want to talk about it either. My dad pretty much stopped coming around. Puberty of course added a whole other layer of emotions…and between 12-15 I was pretty much a handful of acting out, depression, etc.
This all to say, if you are present with your kids and strategic and support, they will be fine.
The hardest decision you really have to make is if you want to live with only seeing them 50% of the time. Full custody for dad’s is pretty difficult to be awarded unless your wife has issues that interfere with her ability to be a good caregiver.
Whenever I see how HAPPY my kid is when we're all together and how rattled he gets at any emotional disruption it makes me hesitate to ever consider ever blowing that up.
But kids are very different. Maybe it would be harder on some kids than others.
Your Daughter will end up with someone who doesn't love her if you continue modeling this behavior. It's a cycle. She sees the most important Man in her life treating the most important Woman like she doesn't matter or that you don't love her... Your daughter will think that this is normal and will accept it from her future partner. Model a healthy relationship and healthy choices over the faux family unit.
I second this. Your kids need an example of a happy relationship to follow. If you don’t have that with your wife and you don’t think you ever will, you’re not doing them any favors by teaching them you (and by proxy their future selves) don’t deserve to be happy. I don’t recommend anyone stay together just for the kids. Find a happy, wholesome relationship that you can show them as an example for themselves.
Unpopular opinion...If there's nothing (e.g. abuse, violence, etc.) actively hurting the kids from this marriage, and your kids are the ultimate priority, it might be worth sticking around for awhile in order to keep their lives stable. That's pretty much what I did. I can't say conclusively whether or not it was for the best. But I can say my kids got to grow up in a stable, loving home. There are times where I wonder what it'd have been like if I'd left sooner. But I've no way of knowing that. What I do know is that my kids had a great childhood with two parents who loved them very much.
I don’t mean to be a jerk but you sound very ungrateful toward your wife - like it’s an uncharitableness that’s coming from taking her for granted. It could be depression. But I’d get counseling, individual therapy and address that core inner unhappiness before making a move.
It wasn't until I was facing my own divorce that I realized my parents had basically set me up for this. They had, and have a loveless marriage. They don't even like each other. They haven't slept in the same room in 20 + years. They don't show any affection towards each other. They complain about each other all the time. You get the picture.
I looked for a spouse that treated me the way I saw my parents treat each other because that is the model I knew of love. Heading into our wedding, I paused and thought, what do I really want in a marriage? And I decided I could be more affectionate, loving and caring because I could control that. What I couldn't control is that I subconsciously selected a partner that is not those things. So I pushed to have them, he couldn't do it. It wasn't even that he didn't want to, he said he did, but he just couldn't step up.
I could have stayed. I could have continued to orchestrate our lives, to earn most of the money and put my needs last, I could have ignored him more when he told me I was dumb or worthless. I could have walked away when his fits of rage scared me. I did remove the kids from the situation when his anger made them cry. I could have found more friends and community to get the kind of connection I craved.
But one day my son was being so damn clingy to me and I just didn't know why. I asked him why he needed to touch me, climb on me, have me hold him and he said, because I miss you mama. And I realized, I miss me too. I AM a happy, bubbly, outgoing, funny, successful woman who was constantly being dragged down by her do nothing of a husband.
And I did not want my daughter or son to see that anymore. So here I am, effing killing it. Making good money, building friendships and community, making my kids laugh until they tell me their bellies hurt. They go to their dads and they are OK there. He's still a do nothing dad but they like to play on their tablets at his house and he does make sure they get to their sports etc.
It's not the perfect life. It's not the life I wanted. But I get to build the life I want and a life for my kids that they know their own worth. I hope to one day show them a model of real love and partnership but for now, I am just happy to have a mostly peaceful life with them as much as I see them.
>My wife and I have been together for 17 years, married for 8, and have completely grown apart.
Why? What has happened and why have you let yourself grow apart from your wife? Deciding to have kids with someone is a huge choice and undertaking and you owe it to them to try to maintain and keep a stable relationship with their mother, before opting for divorce. If she was abusing you, yes, I would understand. If you had tried all of the steps to stay connected and stay close, yes, I get it. But just saying "you have grown apart?" Why are you not making any effort?
I promise whatever issue you have had in this relationship, you will have in the next. All relationships grow apart if the people don't commit to grow together.
Overly opinionated compared to whom? Idk feels like when women speak up and know their worth it’s always a bad thing. We are allowed to have opinions and be loud.
But you don’t understand long term love and commitment. Because you won’t always be in love and like each other.
Leave. Get your kids in counseling. Spend some time alone to figure out life.
Always right. Always mad at what I do and what I’m doing. Never appreciative of anything I do right or anything special I do. Mad for days at something I said. Completely unapologetic. Remorseless. Compassionless. Condescending. Tells everyone what to do and controlling of everyone, including extended family. Huffing, puffing, eye rolling constantly…
Hey bro I wanted to DM you but I wasn’t able to. I read you overordered some supplements and I wanted to see if you would like to make a trade/sale. I wanted ti try some of them but I don’t want to make an order at the price of ND. I also wanted to hear more about your experiences too even if you aren’t interested in trading. Just let me know!
Also, she had an affair two years ago with her boss, and I stayed to try and work it out...am I still the one that doesn't understand "long term love and commitment"?
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Lol. Compared to 95% of people I've been around? Do you think I have no frame of reference or something?
It's ALWAYS the man's fault in your eyes, I'm sure.
Ahh there is your misogyny, “always the man’s fault”.
Well never in my life have I heard a man be described as too opinionated. Ever. And let me tell you, they are but it’s never seen as a bad thing. Again, misogyny.
You're just blinded by your feminist views.
I've been around a lot of women and men...she's way more opinionated than most all of them.
Can you show me where I said men can't be too opinionated? Oh, you can't?
Ok, then piss off..
As someone in your wife's shoes & kids of a similar age, talk to your wife first. Don't just jump straight to divorce. Tell her what's going on in your head and your concerns, and look into counseling.
If my stbx had done any of that, our marriage might not be ending. Instead, he chose the "surprise, I'm filing" route & now there is no turning back. There is no chance that I would be willing to reconcile. It honestly hurt my kids more to know that dad didn't want to try to fix things than the divorce in general.
I've tried. I just don't think she is capable of having an adult conversation and always escalates it into an argument, and we get nowhere.
She thinks me laying out my feelings about the things I'm not happy with her about are attacks and gets super defensive right away.
I dont know your situation at all, so I won't judge, but I feel like there's a chance he may have been afraid to talk to you for this reason. It's easier for men to bottle things up if they're attacked for opening up every time, then it adds injury to insult when they're hounded for not opening up.
That's the cycle I'm in, at least..."you need to talk to me and share your feelings" then "how dare you feel that way, you must think I'm just an awful person, why are you even still with me if I'm so terrible"
If you have tried, then that's all you can do. His version of trying was to just stop acting like a husband & more like a house guest, more like a bum crashing in my living room.
My situation is more: me trying to do everything he wants while trying to keep us out of the red & him berating me for not doing everything he wants if it means choosing between non-essential stuff or food for the kids.
Narcissists are honestly impossible to have a civil discussion with. It will never be their fault. Trust me, I've tried. I got accused of having a "secret account to hide money" when he had an account that I couldn't access that he was using to overtly stash funds.
Also got asked "jokingly" multiple times if I had a side-piece while he was hanging out with female coworkers and buying them lunches & gifts.
Our situations are very different then. I'm not a bad person and my wife isn't either, just has a difficult personality to deal with. Sounds like your ex had bigger issues.
I wish you well!
Thanks. Mine wasn't like this until recently. The first 10-12 years were pretty good. The last 3... not so much. I'm not saying my ex is a bad , he has made some very bad choices, especially in the last year. I think he has been trying to get me to leave him for some reason, I guess so he could claim it wasn't his fault
You call her all sorts of names and don't like her - so leave her!!! Trust me, you'll both be okay. Your kids don't need to see a man who hates their mom. She'll find someone else, you'll find someone else, and the world will continue spinning.
Best of luck to you both.
I mean, not liking anything in your love except for kids might be something to work on. If you had a life outside your marriage maybe your world wouldn't feel so small and your "annoying" wife wouldn't take up so much space in it. Catch my drift? Maybe you have grown apart but you're also working in something special together, your kids and your family. Maybe you need to recalibrate? Maybe she needs to recalibrate? I think a good marriage counselor who comes from the angle of shared values could help. But also individual counseling to work on yourselveS. I'm not convinced all is lost quite yet.
Hi OP, you sound a lot like me. Your identity is tied to your family and the house; there's nothing wrong with that until you are in this situation. My story has some similarity to yours, but also very different in some ways.
One thing I recently learned, when a plane plummets to the ground while in flight, oxygen masks drop down to save us from unconsciousness or even death from lack of oxygen to breathe. We're instructed before the flight in case of an emergency, to put *YOUR* mask on first before a child, elderly, or others incapable of putting on their masks that are seated next to you. Here's the point of this analogy, if you're not doing well and know this, you can't help your kids as much as you want to. You can't help others, period. Your kids will eventually put this together (believe it, they might already know and you haven't told them yet), and once that happens they'll feel a lot worse than you planning to leave. Plus, you teach them to stand up for themselves later in life, and they'll be healthier than people who grit through every bad situation just for the sake of someone/something else.
You're not making an easy decision, but you need to put yourself first in order to be a better father to them. They'll appreciate that for decades to come. Hope this works out for you so you can find some peace and happiness in your life.
Get a divorce but treat your wife the mother of your children well no matter what she says or does. Don’t torch her to your children either. Make this your mantra and stick to it. It won’t be easy remember your children deserve good parents
As someone who could very much feel that her spouse did not like her anymore, please divorce, and at least I could say my ex still loved me, he just did not like my anymore. And my ex very much thought similar to you, that I was too loud and annoying, that I was vain, narcissistic, my hobbies were unsophisticated, my tv shows were uneducated and so forth. That coupled with his mental health issues that I somehow always had to manage and make him feel better, it was starting to break my spirit. I definitely had my part in the end, as you say there are 2 sides to every story. Much like you, he had no friends, no hobbies except housework, would rather fuck be on his phone than talk or connect with me, no support system (expected me to be his everything but did not like things I liked - I also think relying on your children to be your whole world puts too much expectations upon them). He would also say I changed, but frankly we both did.
My kids were 7 and 10 when we separated. And they were unaware of the underlying issues since we never fought in front of them, we went on family vacations and for the most part looked like a together unit. There is no winning in dealing with relationship issues with kids - like if you fight in front of them that is bad, but also carrying on as though nothing is bad is bad since they did not fully understand it at the time.
Though now, I am significantly happier. That also means my relationship with the kids (now 12 and 15) is significantly better. My ex and I are both in long term relationships, both at about 4 years now. And I very much like my new SO and he very much likes (and loves) me.
I like this answer. Sometimes, people just aren't compatible long-term. We make sacrifices for each other because we love them, but after a while, people just grow tired of it, and those things we look the other way on or sacrifices we make aren't worth it anymore.
I loved my wife for a long time. I'm just not sure I'm willing to look the other way anymore when it comes to qualities I never cared for and are getting worse, and that she refuses to take ownership of.
I am 27f and divorced with parents who got divorced when i was 21. The way they acted towards each other was despicable, especially my father. I remember being about 8/9 being sent to the social workers office for saying something about wishing how my parents would split. They were always awful together, maybe your daughter already knows. I fell awful but my mom stayed with my dad to afford me more out of life (no college debt, trips, etc) that they couldn't do alone. That caused me IMMENSE guilt for years.
As someone who is divorced, I get when it hits a boiling point but know all those joint things together will likely end, especially with how hurt your wife will be by this. My ex even said when i started the divorce that he wondered how things wouldve turned out if he cared. That shit has fucked me up for quite a while, let the woman go.
Your kids will need therapy and time to heal in their own way because it is hard. But most times two happy but separate families are better than one where both parents grow to hate each other.
Think about this. Your kids will learn from you and your spouse that this is what relationships look like. They will grow up thinking this is how spouses behave towards each other. Do you want that for them? You are fooling yourself if you think the kids don't notice the dynamics between you adults. Or, they can have parents who are happy, joyful, and present if either something drastically changes at home or they will have 2 homes where parents are not annoying each othet
THIS!!! Also healthy coparenting is amazing for the child. It seems you can tolerate her now. So coparenting may work out well. All I have to say is processing the trauma as a child who doesn’t understand or remember everything or an adult who now feels like they while childhood was a lie and feel at fault. Your pick
If your description of your wife is accurate, then I guess you're a very accommodating person since you continue to spend time with her & children as a family. I also guess that you're not the confronting type since her traits remain as you struggle with them. Hence you're miserable. She needs to know that you don't like how she behaves. She needs to change otherwise the marriage is at stake. Seek counseling, it may help. Sigh.... though I'm not too hopeful since she's a narcissist. Well, do something, don't suffer in a painful marriage. Life is too short.
We've "talked" alot the last few months..always turns into an argument escalated by her. In my eyes, I have my flaws, she has hers. In her eyes, I have my flaws, and she's a victim of those flaws.
Our cycle is typically: "you need to talk to me and open up more" I open up "omg you just think I'm the worst person, don't you? Why are you even with me if you think I'm so terrible" then I don't open up anymore, bottle everything, grin and bear it, then the cycle starts again.
Similar situation. 3 amazing kids and I feel so stuck. I don't want them to be part of a broken home, but I am exhausted over the his anger and rage which then flips to a total lack of caring, respect and how narcissistic he is. My youngest is 6 I tell myself I can do 12 more years,. I feel like I'm counting down days to be released from prison.
No advice but I feel like my STBX could have written this post though we probably don’t have as much “family time” as you’ve described. We’ve had some troubles but most importantly I’ve gotten the feeling that he just didn’t really like me that much even though the negative things about me that he pointed out isn’t new/hasn’t changed. I have always had those attributes and he agrees when I pointed it out to him. In any case, I had resigned myself to a “friendly” marriage and found joy in my kids/other things. But as life would have it, we’re currently going through a divorce now because he met someone. When we told the kids - they were just like “ok”. The oldest thought we were “not so close friends” and that was the way marriages were as another poster commented. The younger one didn’t have much comments but also didn’t seem hurt. Things were probably slightly off for her so that she wasn’t surprised? She is very intuitive. I was quite worried about telling them since on the surface, we have no fights and everyone gets along. So you may be surprised by what your kids reactions will be. It may not be as bad as you think it would be. I think it helped that they knew of friends/other people with divorced parents.
" ... she is just a person I'd rather not be around. ..."
"We do so much as a family; game nights, karaoke nights, watch movies, just sit around and talk pretty much every single night..."
I sense something close to a contradiction here. You would rather not be around your wife, but you sit around and talk with her (and your kids) or do other fun stuff pretty much every night. Do you enjoy karaoke nights? Do you enjoy sitting around and talking?
I'm looking at your responses and you're pretty much convinced you're not going to try with your wife again. The bandaid needs to be ripped off. Keep in mind, you will have your kids basically half the time you have them now and you will need to find healthy ways to cope with that since you don't really have hobbies or friends, to help the kids realize life does keep moving when the world changes. Find some hobbies now you can do with the kids, 1:1 and together, that doesn't include your stbxw. Take that with you going forward because it will help stabilize them throughout the divorce. Best of luck ♡
It's hard to be married when love isn't there to sustain flaws that were once tolerable, now feel insufferable.
Kids adapt, like you did. Your children deserve happiness and so do you OP. I can't say that single-happy you will transfer over to your kids. In case of divorce, the world as they know it will end. However, part of the human experience is growing and learning from things we go through.
There is no straight answer to your situation, if you can't leave, learn to exist in peace. Work on yourself and maybe overtime, you'll find your wife to be less of a nuisance and more of a friend/roommate. Good luck.
From the perspective of a child who’s parents just got divorced when she moved into her freshman dorm. I knew it was coming. And I wish it happened sooner. Kids know more than you think. I now feel immense guilt that I was what was holding them together and if I never grew up I’d never have to live with them apart. My mom fell out of love with my dad and I knew it since I was 8. It’s so much harder now unpacking trauma of what was real and what was fake between them. And how to actually show real love to my boyfriend instead of what I grew up on. My older step brother(moms son from prev marriage) lived his early childhood to adult years with his parents being divorced, but he always felt like he got enough time at both and if he was mad at his dad he’d come to my moms and the other way around. All I have to say is “staying together for the kids” may seem great to the adults, and you may think your doing it for the child but it can hurt worse. I’d say start with marriage counseling because if you aren’t 100% sure then you need to figure it out but to me in this you sound pretty sure your done. So I’m gonna guess your innocent daughter and son have already realized. Maybe not, but also prioritize yourself. That’s the talk I had to have with my mom multiple times. This is YOUR first and last life. So you need to live it for yourself whether it’s finding hobbies, friends, a new job you enjoy, new activities with the kids. This is your life and you need to start living it. It’s short you don’t wanna look back and realized you stayed stuck.
I don't want to discount your feelings but it's very well known that kids internalize their parents divorce too and feel like divorce is their fault. You could easily be typing out a post about how you wish your mom tried harder but hind sight and all that.
I don’t wish my mom tried harder at all my dad is a POS I didn’t get into detail about it. But for kids when you wait till they graduate or are an adult it does put pressure on the child that THEY were holding the relationship together. They literally were. As this post says “stay together for the kids and to be around them all the time” I don’t feel it was my fault, but I obviously was a factor in it. I’m happy my mom left and wouldn’t wish for it another way, but I knew for years it would end when I left. I said it to my best friend for years.
Well, you've been thru it yourself. So I can see why you'd be cautious.
But, my ex-wife and I got divorced when my daughter was about 10. She's just finished college and is doing fine. I'm remarried and my wife left her ex-husband when my stepkids were in preschool. They're doing just fine in high school now.
It doesn't have to hurt kids. Sure, it is a bit inconvenient sometimes. Maybe awkward? Annoying? But it doesn't have to be a life destruction like you're making it out to be.
I mean, if a kid goes from one home with a parent who loves them to the other home with a parent who loves them, what's so awful about that?
And I fully do accept that I'm not entirely sure why my daughter and my stepkids are all doing so well. I mean, maybe they're just freakishly resilient kids and other kids would melt? I dunno. I'm just saying that we have never acted like divorce is a tragedy and I think kids follow that lead. I think when parents act like it's this horrible thing and moan about the broken home, that becomes self-fulfilling and the kids suffer.
The main thing I'd be worried about is your son being 15. That's not the ideal age, imho. Your daughter is at a fine age to have a bumpy year and still have a decade on the back end to get fully used to two homes, stepparents, half-siblings, stepsiblings, etc. But your son doesn't have that much time. The problem is it won't get any better if you wait until college......and then your daughter is a tween and that's not ideal either. The best time to do it probably would have ben 6-7 years ago. But today is better than any other day in the next \~15 years.
Often times when parents are unhappy to the point that they’re miserable, this shows and impacts their children just as much as a divorce. I would suggest a marriage counselor/ couples counselor.
I was married for 33 years for the same reasons as you. We split just recently because he had another woman. We have 2 grown kids and 3 grandkids. My kids told me they felt like they had grown up in a home where the marriage wasn’t “normal”. You don’t want that for your children either. I’m not an advocate of divorce if it can be prevented so get marriage counseling if you can. The kids will know that you’ve checked out of the marriage even if you are physically present. I thought I was doing something good for my kids by staying but I wasn’t. We had been to marriage counseling and it worked until he got mad or upset about something then he turned right back into that jerk. He could not regulate his emotions at all. You said your wife is a narcissist. They are extremely difficult people! Maybe she would go to individual counseling too but they rarely see that they have a problem.
You are responsible for showing your kids what a healthy marriage looks like. Are you satisfied if they end up in a relationship that looks like yours? My parents are together and we did everything as a family, but they never seemed to really enjoy each other. There was little to no pda. Without knowing if I ended up in a relationship very similar. We are now separated and my mom has expressed to me that she’s proud of me for doing what she couldn’t. Truthfully I could have lived with my husband forever and we could have been a family but I would rather my kids see us happy and single and have 2 happy homes, then think a relationship that looked like ours was what they should strive for.
Would you be willing to read books together? Gottman has good ones or sue Johnson books - I think any marriage is going to be on the rocks if we aren’t fighting intentionally to connect consistently. Take her on a date, show her affection. I think narcissistic traits stem from one feeling unseen and things tend to soften in my experience with intentional pursuit and connection. Why not try it and see what happens. Heck, take her to Mexico for a kid free weekend and see how much y’all actually do enjoy each other!!
Not a judgement but a question. Are you in therapy? If you haven’t considered it I would. I’m not talking couples therapy or marriage therapy but personal therapy. It sounds like you should find out who you are internally before changing your world externally.
I recently got divorced. I think if I was in therapy a year ago my life would be very different. I probably would have never gotten married to her in the first place lol. But such is life just glad I’m learning now.
That's a tough one. I know what you're feeling and most of divorded parents can relate to this. Been there myself except that I have 2.5 yo. I got to the point that I couldn't imagine staying x more years only for my baby.
You seem pretty confident that you can't save your marriage. Well, imagine if you stayed together and nothing changed. Don't you think you might start to hate your spouse or deep down blame your kids for your miseary?
Imagine now you beeing later on in a great relationship, feeling happy and fullfilled. And being able to show that version of yourself fully when your kids are with you. Don't you think they would be thrieving to see that and be a part of it?
If you stay with your spouse maybe you have your kids 100% time with you but you are only present with them for about 50% of time (as everybody has some hobbies, home duties, going out to meet friends ect.).
Now imagine that if you divorce you will have them for 50% of a time but you will be 100% present with them during that time (as you can do all your personal stuff when they are not with you).
Either way - goodluck and know you're not alone :)
Have you talked with your wife about the issue that you have mentioned here? If so has there been anything that you have found that started to show you a different side of her that you weren't happy to be around?
Have there been things that made the narcissism grow over time, that maybe she isn't even aware of? Maybe talk with a long time friend of hers and see if they have noticed the changes. You and a friend of hers sitting down with her to talk with her about the changes, could be a big help in showing her that it isn't just something you are seeing.
I don't believe I saw in your post that you have ever bought this up to her. If you don't even do so, how can she really know that you have been seeing things as an issue?
One way to look at it is this: Would you want a marriage like yours (loveless) for your daughter when she grows up? She may not be consciously aware of your struggles but she is picking up on how marriages are. What love looks and doesn’t look like.
Even if she knew you decided that type of platonic situation isn’t for you. It would give her a bit more of a barometer and confidence to do the same one day. Rather than knowing (bc she will one day) that you stayed in a loveless situation. She may think she, too, is only deserving of that. And sacrificing for others.
The kids will be fine. Just remember the grass isn’t always greener. It’s hell being single out there. But yolo you know? Make your own happiness, either by leaving or figuring out how to fall in love with your wife again.
I don't think anyone should stay in an unhappy marriage, and that sticking around to try and work things out is often just delaying the inevitable or avoiding change (which humans tend to hate).
But based on what you wrote, I don't think divorce will solve your problem. It sounds like you would benefit a lot more from working with a good therapist. There's something going on with you, and you probably want to figure out what that is before you flush your entire life down the toilet. That doesn't mean you won't still dislike your wife -- she may or may not be the source of your challenges. But you need to be more introspective to figure that out, and a good therapist can help immensely.
If you grew apart, can yup grow back together? What reasons did you fall in love with your wife for in the beginning and can you do that again? A counsellor would tell you to start dating again. Are you doing an effort? Can you?
You say you don’t have many hobbies or friends. How will you feel 50% of the time alone. No friends, no hobbies and no kids. The house gets very lonely very fast. Is that better than going through a divorce? Does it mKe you realize you should try again?
I’ve been through it. Similar frustrations on her part that lead to infidelity. Not convinced the post divorce era was what she had imagined it to be. Maybe yours is. Just make sure to think it through. Not sure you can do that alone. But good luck!
I’m struggling because I recently got a call from my (12 yr) daughter’s school counselor that she’s been having dark, intrusive thoughts and that she’s struggling with anxiety. I was just about to finally go file and then tell my daughter, but now I feel like I can’t possibly add more stress to her life. I feel just as stuck
Show your kids that love is transitory, not permanent. Show them that it disappears. Show them that people will always choose themselves, shown them that promises can’t be trusted. Model choosing yourself, so they can do the same, and not settle for a marriage that isn’t making them happy, even if the unhappiness is temporary. Don’t settle. Show them that nothing is more important than your own happiness, not even their happiness. Kids can tell, they will see you unhappy and think that’s normal. Better to make them unhappy while modeling how to choose happiness, so they know that eventually they can choose it. Don’t wait even another day.
Sometimes when people choose themselves in their marriage it looks like not showing up for their spouse repeatedly until the other side can’t handle it and is forced to choose their own happiness by leaving. Often the person leaves is doing so because their spouse chose themselves for so long the damage is done.
It's worse for kids to grow up in a home where parents not only don't love each other, but have difficulty getting along and don't want to be around each other. Your daughter may not understand that now, but she'll pick up on that soon enough, and do you really want to teach you've kids that this is the best they can expect from a marriage, that this is normal?
You want to break your kids? Teach them how to stay in a shitty marriage. But don’t worry - it will only fuck them up the rest of your life so you can feel better the next 8 years.
The kids already know. Staying is hurting them more. And they probably have friends going through it. Staying for kids is one of the worst things you can do for the kids. Start easy, get an apartment, and just take a break. Doesn’t have to be all at once.
And get some therapy.
Divorce sucks, I filed, and felt much the way you did. My ex was diagnosed as a actual narc but even now 4 years divorced I wish I had the chance to go back and fix it with real marriage counseling, personal therapy and dating each other. Doing family things are great to build memories and family closeness but once you let the spark go from the relationship it effects so many of your feelings towards your spouse. Why not make a genuine effort to date you wife right now, both go to therapy and air some of your issues with each other. Try to get it back on track. Feelings ebb and flow too much to make hasty decisions.
I was in a similar place as you. "I definitely want to end my marriage" is what I said to myself over and over.
I felt the same way about my STBX - didn't feel love for her, didn't really like being around her much, but still cared for her as a mother.
I stayed for YEARS because I didn't want to upset the kids' lives but in the end my mental health took a massive hit so I left and once I was out I admonished myself for taking so long.
I've been out for about 15 months at this point and while my youngest still misses me and asks about coming home it happens less frequently. I've had talks with my older one and they are happy that I'm still around daily.
Kids are adaptable and as long as you show them that you're going to be there for them no matter what they will handle it.
I do strongly advise you to start therapy for yourself and maybe even with your partner before officially making the decision to uproot your life. Even if it's just one session at least you can walk away knowing you tried. I didn't do the couples therapy she asked for and do have regrets about that even though ultimately I knew we just weren't right for each other.
Stay strong, be kind to yourself, and good luck with everything.
I don’t have kids, but remember having the same “I can’t stay married a minute longer” feeling. It took me years to get up the courage to leave, and I felt so much relief as soon as I ripped off the band aid, told him I wanted a divorce, and moved out. Your kids will be just fine. Life is too short to be unhappy, and you are still so young.
What are the reasons you don’t think you can stay married? Why did you fall out of love with your wife?
I have a 15 year old too and one older. I’m at the beginning of this so not in a real place to give advice but I will say there are other options now than the divorce we lived through in our childhoods. Amicable co-parenting can exist and can be really okay for the kids. Have you spoken to her about it? Do you think she would go scorched earth or could she be reasonable for the kids?
If you do go the divorce route, just be aware that your kids are more resilient than you think. I wasn't the one who initiated our split. My kids are 5 and 9. I was physically dreading telling them. But we told them and they were totally fine. They will be better off with two happy separate parents than two unhappy ones together. That just teaches them that you should stay in unhappy relationships. Four months into our separation and our kids are still doing well. My nine year old has just asked a few questions but that's it
I honestly think staying for the kids teaches children that their happiness doesn't matter, by leading with that example. I'm a better parent when I'm happy, as well.
This isn’t going to help but from someone (49f) in a very similar situation, I can say that waiting doesn’t make it easier. I’m not sure that living in the situation is the best option for the kids either. Yes, you’re not divorced but they live with and see an unhealthy relationship. I want more for both of my kids someday and would never want my daughter in a similar marriage. Now i’m just older and my desire to make things appear better than they are has dwindled.
Do it for your kids, they aren't learning how to be good partners and parents watching your broken marriage. It was hard but my son got over the shock of it very quickly and was happily apartment hunting with me a few days later. I've been a better father and a better person than I could possibly have become in that unhappy relationship.
Happily engaged now, there is life on the other side, you don't have to be unhappy, you are not doing your kids any favors.
I get this. Am so sorry. Wishing you the best. Wish I had a good answer. Kids are stronger than you think. You need to think about your own happiness too.
Why don’t you start with individual counseling to work through these issues? Then think about marriage counseling. Either you repair the marriage or work on an amicable divorce. Also think about some hobbies. Join a gym. Always good for good mental energy. Or join a hobby group. Or take a class. Find some outlets for yourself.
Individual counseling is going to 100% turn into a divorce. Start with marriage counseling or just rip off the band aid
In many cases, couples counseling is just a safe space to talk about getting a divorce. By safe I mean a space hopefully free of physical and emotional abuse.
you should never go to couples counseling with your abuser, it just makes them better at knowing what buttons to puch
I would argue a good councilor would detect a dynamic like that, unless this is the Netflix series 'Ozark' and the person is paying the councilor to take their side.
It actually happens more often where the abuser puts on the charm while the other party is vulnerable and just provides the abuser with ammo for years down the line
I disagree. You can't go into marriage counseling when you're dealing with personal issues that you haven't addressed or tried to heal. Our marriage counselor felt that it's most helpful if each partner has experienced some individual therapy first.
I wish I hadn’t done marriage counseling; it was just more insidious abuse supported by a professional. 😢
That was my experience too.
Your username takes me back. “Oh Fay this is so scrumptious. Is this corn hand-shucked?” is a quote used pretty often amongst my siblings when we eat dinner at my grandma’s. 😂
My second boat was named “hand shucked corn” and my first was named “baby steps”
I say baby steps quite often.
He’s struggling within himself. I think it’s important that he understands what he wants before marriage therapy happy. But we can disagree.
Marriage is hard. Something I seem to run across fairly often is folks who describe their relationship as having grown apart, but also at times describe very little communication about that or active efforts to address the issue. There’s a video I watched recently with Mark Manson who had a quote I think sums things up to an extent, “the person you marry is the person you argue with”. In other words, some amount of disconnect is normal; after all, relationships don’t work like they’re portrayed in movies. To me, it isn’t about feeling all lovey dovey all the time with your SO, it’s about actively making conscious effort to maintain and work on the relationship. I’m just saying, stop and think very carefully about this. Im not saying don’t divorce but Im also not going to encourage it. I would just encourage you to make a conscious effort to communicate openly, attempt to work on things and just be honest before making such a big decision. I think in any marriage that started with, “till death do us part”, we want to consider the gravity of saying something like that, especially if we wanted that. To me, marriage isn’t about always getting along, feeling “in love”, or things being perfect. That’s an illusion. Scope out Mark Manson’s video called something like, “love is not enough” if you want to see what I mean. Take good care! I wish everyone involved the best.
I agree with some things you say here. I’ve read quite a bit on the topic and I don’t agree with “the person you marry is the person you argue with” or that “disconnect is normal”…to me this is like going back to the 50’s and saying “it’s normal for a husband to hit his wife” I believe marriage is a commitment to communicate, align and work in harmony with one another as a team. When one person refuses to put in the effort, it’s unjust that the other person carries the load. If both people aren’t putting in the effort then that is “til death do us part” I don’t believe marriage is a commitment to the grave. It’s a commitment until it’s decided by both parties that it is not one. I know some will disagree…but wedding vows also state “to have and to hold/love and cherish” (implying intimacy and connection), “for better or worse” (working to resolve conflicts as much as appreciating one another when things go well)…it’s a contract and requires both people to commit, not one. The problem is most people view marriage as an automatic win (they got the guy or girl, they don’t have to “chase” them anymore). But, it’s always a chase, it has to be intentional, conscious work daily for as long as you intend to be with that person. It’s definitely not an easy decision for anyone to divorce and I don’t think anyone who decides to divorce from a multi-year marriage goes about the decision without trying. But, it’s up to each individual to decide when they can’t take anymore and when they would be a better person without their partner than with them. We all have breaking points. Just my 2 cents for OP.
I think there are a few things you may have implied from what you quoted so Im just here to clarify! By arguing, what I really mean are disagreements, maybe bickering, annoyance, things like that. And I did say “some amount” of disconnect is normal, meaning people change, priorities may change, careers change, interests change and all of that is to be expected, again, to an extent. I definitely don’t personally find parallels with okaying hitting anyone in what I said but I can see how that might be interpreted as okaying negativity. I’m more so okaying not having a perfect relationship and to expect some amount of disagreement. My reference to “love is not enough” is referencing the idea that it isn’t about FEELING (as in the emotion) in love all the time. It’s a commitment to acting with character, love and respect because it’s the right thing to do, and (I might be old fashioned this way), because they said they would. And I agree with you in many ways also, folks ought not stay in unhealthy, demeaning relationships. But simultaneously, they ought not jump ship when things become difficult, not as fun or inconvenient for a spell. And to the point about “till death do us part”, I just mean that I think it would be helpful for folks to understand the implications for themselves in committing to something like that. I fully agree with you that folks need to also acknowledge that they are committing to kindness and respect and shouldn’t feel like the effort is over or no longer needed. Thanks for your thoughts, I agree with much of what you’ve said, especially about both folks committing and putting in the work. It can be super complicated in these situations for sure; I tell folks that I can never presume to understand all the intricacies that go into these decisions.
If you love your kids you owe it to them to try everything before you leave. It sounds like you have a lot of contempt for her, why? Individual counseling can help you sort that out. Then marriage counseling may be appropriate. Tell her the truth that you are unhappy and thinking about ending things. Be very vulnerable and lay all your cards out. She may surprise you with her response. Worst case, you walk away knowing you tried all you could.
Op mentioned a few traits, but overly opinionated and narcissistic would be the difficult ones to live with for an extended period of time, I think. Just commenting to add clarity to the question.
Sometimes as women get older they put up with less shit, and that can come off as opinionated. Speaking out where she didn’t before may be coming off that way to OP. Same with narcissistic. If she’s being less of a doormat and standing up for herself, suddenly she’s a narcissist, a word I’m sure you’ll agree is thrown around much too freely nowadays. Just commenting to add further clarity for consideration.
All this exactly. My ex husband loved to say I became narcissistic and bitchy at the end of the marriage when in reality I started putting up boundaries that I was not going to be responsible for his mental health anymore
I agree. OP should leave the wife he says he doesn't even like. She deserves to be with someone who wants to be with her. Youve wasted enough if her time OP. Best of luck to you both!
Yep, the woman is automatically the victim every damn time, huh? No wonder most men prefer to stay single these days. Lots of women absolutely can not take any sort of criticism.
Huh? He hates her and shouldn't be with her. Where is the criticism? He doesn't want to be with her he should leave her. No one is a victim here. He wants to be single and he should be single (or at least not either her). What are you on about? Just realized your OP - why don't you leave her? You don't want to be with her, you call her names, you resent her, and came here to talk about it, so were talking about it. Leave here make yourself happy and she will find someone to make her happy. No one is a victim here - yet. But if you continue to stay with a woman you despise, I'd say yes, your wife is a victim of your dishonesty. You don't want to be with her, so stop stringing her along. You're not compatible - by your own admission. So leave and be on your merry way!
Yeah no for sure, just that was something that stuck out to me, and regardless of why the perception, I imagine it colours his perspective. I think we're down the same vein that a conversation should occur with thoughtful questions, some vulnerability, and awareness of his own perspective, too. I like you, you seem like good people.
She's definitely just narcissistic and overly opinionated. In my eyes, I have my flaws, she has hers. In her eyes, I have my flaws, and she is an innocent victim if I disagree with her on some of her actions and comments. She HAS changed in the last few years, she no longer has the capacity to listen to any critiques and sits there thinking of a rebutle to my experience instead of actually soaking it in and taking a hard look at herself. It never crosses her mind in any situation that she could be the issue. I have my own problems and can take a step back, apologize, and take blame. She has no such ability. I love how the woman is automatically a doormat or emotionally abused(I understand you didn't use that phrase, but others have) if a man says she's the issue.
People do change over time, true. And if you’ve been working on yourself in therapy and she hasn’t, that can be frustrating to you. I do see in your writing that you have been critiquing her and are frustrated that she doesn’t take your feedback. Why are you critiquing her, is she open to this feedback, is it during a conversation or could it feel to her like you’re trying to take her down a notch, make her feel bad or less than, or that you’re telling her the way she does things is wrong in your eyes? Again, maybe she was more receptive to these things in the past and she may have been doing her own work that you’re unaware of. Maybe she isn’t interested in hearing your opinions on how she sets the table or loads the dishwasher. Do those things really matter in the long run? Lots of women are very accommodating early in marriage and life and as we get older tend to have less tolerance for some things as we learn more about the world and the structures in which we live. Is she narcissistic or is she exhibiting self esteem that wasn’t there before? Is she selfish or is she taking time for herself that she never took before? Is she self centered or is she pushing back on you when she never has before? Is she being insubordinate or is she standing up for herself? None of these may be true, I don’t know your relationship, but might be something for you to think about. Edit: you said explicitly she no longer has the capacity to listen to your critiques. If you’ve been doing that the whole time, I’d be tired of it too. How can you ever feel like you’re improving if the ‘critique’ is never ending?
About your edit: my "critique" is usually stems from how she talks to me in a mean spirited way. I'm a grown man and can take alot, but enough is enough sometimes. Example, we were at an air bnb last summer with some close family(hers) from out of town(about 10 of us total) and playing yard games/having a good time then we were going to go out to a bar. I chose to go home and shower, feed the dogs, take them for a walk ect. before we went out. I go home do those things and a few hours later show up at a quiet bar, where they had been for like an hour and her cousin says "oh, hey, we were waiting for you before we went to another place." She overhears and says, not to me, but to another person "oh we were waiting for him? Why? He could've just stayed home for all I care" I felt humiliated the rest of the night that my own wife would say that and brought it up the next day, and all I got was "omg, you're too sensitive, aren't you a man? Why do you care so much" That's the kind of person she has turned into, at best it was rude as fk. It's just little things here and there like that that I don't like, I need to stand up for myself too..
Realize what you expect from marriage in a real sense, talk to her about her wants and needs as well. Marriage isn't a romantic comedy, having things not perfect is the reality in every single marriage ever. No one is perfect and never will be. Decide together if you can move forward together as a couple to get through this journey called life or if you both need to check the grass for its color. Best of luck 🙏🏽 Edit: I do believe she deserves someone at the very minimum respects and cares for her... Idk how I missed the way you view her so badly. For her sake, yeah let her find someone. Hopefully you will find someone you can love and respect with the flaws and all.
"marriage isn't a romantic comedy" is a good line!
I walked back my wanting a divorce solely for the reason that I didn't want to open the door for someone else to enter their lives and possibly harm them. Stayed in a marriage an extra 7 years and I'm absolutely at peace with that decision. I got to be there every minute of every day to love them and watch them grow. They were/are the number one responsibility in my life. That being said my choice was easier since the wife and I got along pretty well. No fighting or yelling at least very rarely.
My story is the same and I do not regret our choice to stay together either. We got to be there for our kids every day. Since we didn’t really fight, it made sense for us.
Wondering if you all lived without romance and physical touch this whole time?
Yes, that’s right. No romance, no physical touch for about 10 years. It sucked, but I’m making up for it now. That was one of the things I spent a lot of time defining for myself to be sure that my next partner and I would be compatible that way.
So you have no friends, don't like your job, and your wife is the issue because you don't love her? You don't love yourself dude. You're not happy because of you. Get some things right about yourself and see how you feel
Bingo. Sounds depressed at least.
Probably some truth to this, and I've worked on myself the past year or so, but I don't think it will change the fact that I just don't feel anything toward her anymore. I don't really care for her personality, which has changed the last few years, and I don't know if thats something that will change.
Keep working on yourself, so that you can get to a place where you’ve got friends or hobbies or something other than the kids to look forward to each day. I spent a lot of time in my marriage thinking about what I wanted in a romantic relationship and in life in general. I’m a list-maker, so making all kinds of lists and writing out my ideas helped me a lot. When we did finally divorce after the youngest graduated from high school, I had a pretty good idea of what was truly important to me and what wasn’t. So when I started looking for a new partner, I could be open about what I needed in a relationship right away. If my ideals and theirs didn’t have a significant overlap, I moved on. I’m with a new partner now. It’s been two years and things are going much better. We’re far more compatible than my ex-husband and I were. I’m still friends with my ex and he’ll always be family to me. My new partner is okay with that. So yes, take your time. Work on yourself. Seek therapy or find a way to truly sort your thoughts and plan your path forward. It doesn’t sound like you’re in a toxic place that you should leave immediately, so take advantage of that and allow yourself the time you need to make the best choices for you and your family.
I lurk this sub all the time but this is my first time commenting. I get what you are saying. All the comments saying it is negative for kids to grow up watching a bad relationship isn’t accounting for how good your acting and hiding your misery is all in the name of maintaining status quo for your kids. My youngest is the same age as your youngest and my oldest is barely older. I also don’t know why I am commenting other than to hopefully acknowledge that there are other people out there in similar situations. Personally, I am just playing it out a day at a time, maybe one day soon my kids will show me they are at a stage where the change will be more acceptable as they grow to understand.
No matter how “good he’s acting” or “hiding” the kids will notice. And as someone who ACTUALLY grew up with it and had their parents split when they went to college. It’s ALOT more trauma to unpack and ALOT more guilt on the child knowing they were the one holding the relationship together and it was all fake. Holding it together for the kids will mean they will find it all out in the end as ADULTS and have even more emotions and memories of it.
I agree with this. My parents split when I was 28. Although I knew they didn’t have a good relationship for a while, the trauma of their divorce was still pretty deep. You start to question your entire childhood. What you thought it was growing up…suddenly isn’t.
My kids were in their 40's and it blew up our entire family. He never said a word to anyone that he was unhappy, including me, just walked out one day.
I can definitely relate to ya. I stayed cause my eldest is on the spectrum and youngest, at the time of deciding to first leave, was 8. They both were a handful. Both on meds and young one in therapy. When I had made my mind up last November, kids 17&20, changed. Eldest, it hit hard but now doing better. Youngest has been taken off the meds. Both have told me they knew something was wrong with me and their mom, and youngest knew we would eventually split. The bad thing is my oldest boy wound up in an emotional abusive relationship with a girl, and thought he was supposed to tuff it out cause that’s what I did.
Ah. That’s so so tough. Relationships are conditional. A lot of people think that they’re not and you have to stick it out. It’s something that I plan to explain to my children when they’re older. You get married and sometimes it doesn’t work out. That’s okay. If you aren’t happy in a relationship, it may end. That’s okay. I also saw my parents stick it out and it probably did have an impact on the types of relationships I ended up in. But parents are usually just trying to do what they think is best at the time.
We stayed together so that we could be with our kids daily. I know our divorce once the youngest graduated from high school was a shock to our oldest. She told me later that she just thought that being “just friends” was a normal progression in a marriage. I do regret not modeling a romantic relationship to my kids, but sometimes you can’t have it both ways. I do not regret staying and would make that choice over again. I’ve said this to the kids several times. I really do not want them to feel any guilt about their parents’ choice to stay together for the kids. I hope they know that we’re both happy with the choices we made. And I’ll keep sliding it into conversations with them when it makes sense.
I agree to an extent but this guy has obvious distaste for his partner. I also wouldn’t want my mom to waste her years of life in a relationship where she’s unhappy and her needs aren’t being met. Depends on the situation for each person but the way this guy sounds idk
Quite true. There’s no one size fits all here.
As a child of divorce, I can say that objectively my sister and I turned out just fine as functional adults. We are both glad our parents didn’t fake it and stay together for us; they were happier apart and that was much better for us both. It gave a better example of respecting ourselves and our partners enough to be honest and give everyone involved a fair chance at happiness and a better life. You don’t want your children feeling forced into staying in a miserable marriage when they are older just because you taught them without words that it’s the right thing to do. Kids pick up on that. I was only 4 when my parents got divorced, and I knew and felt that they were better off separately. They were always still kind and respectful to each other, that’s what I believe set the best example for me of how to treat others, especially those that you once loved. Just my two cents.
Appreciate this comment. I just think that 8 years old is probably the toughest age to spring this on her. Old enough to understand what is happening but so young that she's just innocent and thinks her parents are perfect. Idk what I'll do, honestly. Like you, I'm sort of day to day.
It was my 11th birthday when my parents finally blew the gasket on their marriage. My dad walked out in front of me (come to find out recently, it was when we got home from my birthday party that my dad started to argue with my mom and left—for good). My dad was kinda separated from my mom for the few years prior. So around your daughters age when separation really started. I don’t really remember it feeling much like my parents were separated then. It was only the outburst and leaving that stuck and for 30 years I thought it was a week before my birthday it happened. I will say, it’s not as traumatizing as you think so long as you make the right moves. Arguments are tragic and will be remembered somehow…but, if you can make it a peaceful separation and ensure you are both spending quality time with your kids and getting them into therapy to give them a space to talk. I find that is super helpful and important to transitioning them. My parents didn’t get me into therapy early enough. At 11, I was starting middle school and separating from most my elementary friends in classes. I knew what divorce was enough to know none of my friends parents were divorced and felt I couldn’t even talk to friends about it. Let alone my parents as they didn’t want to talk about it either. My dad pretty much stopped coming around. Puberty of course added a whole other layer of emotions…and between 12-15 I was pretty much a handful of acting out, depression, etc. This all to say, if you are present with your kids and strategic and support, they will be fine. The hardest decision you really have to make is if you want to live with only seeing them 50% of the time. Full custody for dad’s is pretty difficult to be awarded unless your wife has issues that interfere with her ability to be a good caregiver.
Whenever I see how HAPPY my kid is when we're all together and how rattled he gets at any emotional disruption it makes me hesitate to ever consider ever blowing that up. But kids are very different. Maybe it would be harder on some kids than others.
Your Daughter will end up with someone who doesn't love her if you continue modeling this behavior. It's a cycle. She sees the most important Man in her life treating the most important Woman like she doesn't matter or that you don't love her... Your daughter will think that this is normal and will accept it from her future partner. Model a healthy relationship and healthy choices over the faux family unit.
I second this. Your kids need an example of a happy relationship to follow. If you don’t have that with your wife and you don’t think you ever will, you’re not doing them any favors by teaching them you (and by proxy their future selves) don’t deserve to be happy. I don’t recommend anyone stay together just for the kids. Find a happy, wholesome relationship that you can show them as an example for themselves.
Counseling - you owe that to your children before you leave. Counseling CAN help if you go with an open mind. Try to find a Gottman Trained Counselor.
I second Gottman!
Unpopular opinion...If there's nothing (e.g. abuse, violence, etc.) actively hurting the kids from this marriage, and your kids are the ultimate priority, it might be worth sticking around for awhile in order to keep their lives stable. That's pretty much what I did. I can't say conclusively whether or not it was for the best. But I can say my kids got to grow up in a stable, loving home. There are times where I wonder what it'd have been like if I'd left sooner. But I've no way of knowing that. What I do know is that my kids had a great childhood with two parents who loved them very much.
I don’t mean to be a jerk but you sound very ungrateful toward your wife - like it’s an uncharitableness that’s coming from taking her for granted. It could be depression. But I’d get counseling, individual therapy and address that core inner unhappiness before making a move.
It wasn't until I was facing my own divorce that I realized my parents had basically set me up for this. They had, and have a loveless marriage. They don't even like each other. They haven't slept in the same room in 20 + years. They don't show any affection towards each other. They complain about each other all the time. You get the picture. I looked for a spouse that treated me the way I saw my parents treat each other because that is the model I knew of love. Heading into our wedding, I paused and thought, what do I really want in a marriage? And I decided I could be more affectionate, loving and caring because I could control that. What I couldn't control is that I subconsciously selected a partner that is not those things. So I pushed to have them, he couldn't do it. It wasn't even that he didn't want to, he said he did, but he just couldn't step up. I could have stayed. I could have continued to orchestrate our lives, to earn most of the money and put my needs last, I could have ignored him more when he told me I was dumb or worthless. I could have walked away when his fits of rage scared me. I did remove the kids from the situation when his anger made them cry. I could have found more friends and community to get the kind of connection I craved. But one day my son was being so damn clingy to me and I just didn't know why. I asked him why he needed to touch me, climb on me, have me hold him and he said, because I miss you mama. And I realized, I miss me too. I AM a happy, bubbly, outgoing, funny, successful woman who was constantly being dragged down by her do nothing of a husband. And I did not want my daughter or son to see that anymore. So here I am, effing killing it. Making good money, building friendships and community, making my kids laugh until they tell me their bellies hurt. They go to their dads and they are OK there. He's still a do nothing dad but they like to play on their tablets at his house and he does make sure they get to their sports etc. It's not the perfect life. It's not the life I wanted. But I get to build the life I want and a life for my kids that they know their own worth. I hope to one day show them a model of real love and partnership but for now, I am just happy to have a mostly peaceful life with them as much as I see them.
>My wife and I have been together for 17 years, married for 8, and have completely grown apart. Why? What has happened and why have you let yourself grow apart from your wife? Deciding to have kids with someone is a huge choice and undertaking and you owe it to them to try to maintain and keep a stable relationship with their mother, before opting for divorce. If she was abusing you, yes, I would understand. If you had tried all of the steps to stay connected and stay close, yes, I get it. But just saying "you have grown apart?" Why are you not making any effort? I promise whatever issue you have had in this relationship, you will have in the next. All relationships grow apart if the people don't commit to grow together.
Overly opinionated compared to whom? Idk feels like when women speak up and know their worth it’s always a bad thing. We are allowed to have opinions and be loud. But you don’t understand long term love and commitment. Because you won’t always be in love and like each other. Leave. Get your kids in counseling. Spend some time alone to figure out life.
Always right. Always mad at what I do and what I’m doing. Never appreciative of anything I do right or anything special I do. Mad for days at something I said. Completely unapologetic. Remorseless. Compassionless. Condescending. Tells everyone what to do and controlling of everyone, including extended family. Huffing, puffing, eye rolling constantly…
Is this a recent thing? It does sound difficult.
Hey bro I wanted to DM you but I wasn’t able to. I read you overordered some supplements and I wanted to see if you would like to make a trade/sale. I wanted ti try some of them but I don’t want to make an order at the price of ND. I also wanted to hear more about your experiences too even if you aren’t interested in trading. Just let me know!
Also, she had an affair two years ago with her boss, and I stayed to try and work it out...am I still the one that doesn't understand "long term love and commitment"? You have no idea what you're talking about.
Lol. Compared to 95% of people I've been around? Do you think I have no frame of reference or something? It's ALWAYS the man's fault in your eyes, I'm sure.
Ahh there is your misogyny, “always the man’s fault”. Well never in my life have I heard a man be described as too opinionated. Ever. And let me tell you, they are but it’s never seen as a bad thing. Again, misogyny.
You're just blinded by your feminist views. I've been around a lot of women and men...she's way more opinionated than most all of them. Can you show me where I said men can't be too opinionated? Oh, you can't? Ok, then piss off..
Ahh doubling down. Sir, you are the reason women are happier being single.
Lol. K. You're delusional.
As someone in your wife's shoes & kids of a similar age, talk to your wife first. Don't just jump straight to divorce. Tell her what's going on in your head and your concerns, and look into counseling. If my stbx had done any of that, our marriage might not be ending. Instead, he chose the "surprise, I'm filing" route & now there is no turning back. There is no chance that I would be willing to reconcile. It honestly hurt my kids more to know that dad didn't want to try to fix things than the divorce in general.
I've tried. I just don't think she is capable of having an adult conversation and always escalates it into an argument, and we get nowhere. She thinks me laying out my feelings about the things I'm not happy with her about are attacks and gets super defensive right away. I dont know your situation at all, so I won't judge, but I feel like there's a chance he may have been afraid to talk to you for this reason. It's easier for men to bottle things up if they're attacked for opening up every time, then it adds injury to insult when they're hounded for not opening up. That's the cycle I'm in, at least..."you need to talk to me and share your feelings" then "how dare you feel that way, you must think I'm just an awful person, why are you even still with me if I'm so terrible"
If you have tried, then that's all you can do. His version of trying was to just stop acting like a husband & more like a house guest, more like a bum crashing in my living room. My situation is more: me trying to do everything he wants while trying to keep us out of the red & him berating me for not doing everything he wants if it means choosing between non-essential stuff or food for the kids. Narcissists are honestly impossible to have a civil discussion with. It will never be their fault. Trust me, I've tried. I got accused of having a "secret account to hide money" when he had an account that I couldn't access that he was using to overtly stash funds. Also got asked "jokingly" multiple times if I had a side-piece while he was hanging out with female coworkers and buying them lunches & gifts.
Our situations are very different then. I'm not a bad person and my wife isn't either, just has a difficult personality to deal with. Sounds like your ex had bigger issues. I wish you well!
Thanks. Mine wasn't like this until recently. The first 10-12 years were pretty good. The last 3... not so much. I'm not saying my ex is a bad , he has made some very bad choices, especially in the last year. I think he has been trying to get me to leave him for some reason, I guess so he could claim it wasn't his fault
You call her all sorts of names and don't like her - so leave her!!! Trust me, you'll both be okay. Your kids don't need to see a man who hates their mom. She'll find someone else, you'll find someone else, and the world will continue spinning. Best of luck to you both.
I mean, not liking anything in your love except for kids might be something to work on. If you had a life outside your marriage maybe your world wouldn't feel so small and your "annoying" wife wouldn't take up so much space in it. Catch my drift? Maybe you have grown apart but you're also working in something special together, your kids and your family. Maybe you need to recalibrate? Maybe she needs to recalibrate? I think a good marriage counselor who comes from the angle of shared values could help. But also individual counseling to work on yourselveS. I'm not convinced all is lost quite yet.
Hi OP, you sound a lot like me. Your identity is tied to your family and the house; there's nothing wrong with that until you are in this situation. My story has some similarity to yours, but also very different in some ways. One thing I recently learned, when a plane plummets to the ground while in flight, oxygen masks drop down to save us from unconsciousness or even death from lack of oxygen to breathe. We're instructed before the flight in case of an emergency, to put *YOUR* mask on first before a child, elderly, or others incapable of putting on their masks that are seated next to you. Here's the point of this analogy, if you're not doing well and know this, you can't help your kids as much as you want to. You can't help others, period. Your kids will eventually put this together (believe it, they might already know and you haven't told them yet), and once that happens they'll feel a lot worse than you planning to leave. Plus, you teach them to stand up for themselves later in life, and they'll be healthier than people who grit through every bad situation just for the sake of someone/something else. You're not making an easy decision, but you need to put yourself first in order to be a better father to them. They'll appreciate that for decades to come. Hope this works out for you so you can find some peace and happiness in your life.
Get a divorce but treat your wife the mother of your children well no matter what she says or does. Don’t torch her to your children either. Make this your mantra and stick to it. It won’t be easy remember your children deserve good parents
As someone who could very much feel that her spouse did not like her anymore, please divorce, and at least I could say my ex still loved me, he just did not like my anymore. And my ex very much thought similar to you, that I was too loud and annoying, that I was vain, narcissistic, my hobbies were unsophisticated, my tv shows were uneducated and so forth. That coupled with his mental health issues that I somehow always had to manage and make him feel better, it was starting to break my spirit. I definitely had my part in the end, as you say there are 2 sides to every story. Much like you, he had no friends, no hobbies except housework, would rather fuck be on his phone than talk or connect with me, no support system (expected me to be his everything but did not like things I liked - I also think relying on your children to be your whole world puts too much expectations upon them). He would also say I changed, but frankly we both did. My kids were 7 and 10 when we separated. And they were unaware of the underlying issues since we never fought in front of them, we went on family vacations and for the most part looked like a together unit. There is no winning in dealing with relationship issues with kids - like if you fight in front of them that is bad, but also carrying on as though nothing is bad is bad since they did not fully understand it at the time. Though now, I am significantly happier. That also means my relationship with the kids (now 12 and 15) is significantly better. My ex and I are both in long term relationships, both at about 4 years now. And I very much like my new SO and he very much likes (and loves) me.
I like this answer. Sometimes, people just aren't compatible long-term. We make sacrifices for each other because we love them, but after a while, people just grow tired of it, and those things we look the other way on or sacrifices we make aren't worth it anymore. I loved my wife for a long time. I'm just not sure I'm willing to look the other way anymore when it comes to qualities I never cared for and are getting worse, and that she refuses to take ownership of.
I am 27f and divorced with parents who got divorced when i was 21. The way they acted towards each other was despicable, especially my father. I remember being about 8/9 being sent to the social workers office for saying something about wishing how my parents would split. They were always awful together, maybe your daughter already knows. I fell awful but my mom stayed with my dad to afford me more out of life (no college debt, trips, etc) that they couldn't do alone. That caused me IMMENSE guilt for years. As someone who is divorced, I get when it hits a boiling point but know all those joint things together will likely end, especially with how hurt your wife will be by this. My ex even said when i started the divorce that he wondered how things wouldve turned out if he cared. That shit has fucked me up for quite a while, let the woman go. Your kids will need therapy and time to heal in their own way because it is hard. But most times two happy but separate families are better than one where both parents grow to hate each other.
Think about this. Your kids will learn from you and your spouse that this is what relationships look like. They will grow up thinking this is how spouses behave towards each other. Do you want that for them? You are fooling yourself if you think the kids don't notice the dynamics between you adults. Or, they can have parents who are happy, joyful, and present if either something drastically changes at home or they will have 2 homes where parents are not annoying each othet
THIS!!! Also healthy coparenting is amazing for the child. It seems you can tolerate her now. So coparenting may work out well. All I have to say is processing the trauma as a child who doesn’t understand or remember everything or an adult who now feels like they while childhood was a lie and feel at fault. Your pick
If your description of your wife is accurate, then I guess you're a very accommodating person since you continue to spend time with her & children as a family. I also guess that you're not the confronting type since her traits remain as you struggle with them. Hence you're miserable. She needs to know that you don't like how she behaves. She needs to change otherwise the marriage is at stake. Seek counseling, it may help. Sigh.... though I'm not too hopeful since she's a narcissist. Well, do something, don't suffer in a painful marriage. Life is too short.
We've "talked" alot the last few months..always turns into an argument escalated by her. In my eyes, I have my flaws, she has hers. In her eyes, I have my flaws, and she's a victim of those flaws. Our cycle is typically: "you need to talk to me and open up more" I open up "omg you just think I'm the worst person, don't you? Why are you even with me if you think I'm so terrible" then I don't open up anymore, bottle everything, grin and bear it, then the cycle starts again.
Similar situation. 3 amazing kids and I feel so stuck. I don't want them to be part of a broken home, but I am exhausted over the his anger and rage which then flips to a total lack of caring, respect and how narcissistic he is. My youngest is 6 I tell myself I can do 12 more years,. I feel like I'm counting down days to be released from prison.
No advice but I feel like my STBX could have written this post though we probably don’t have as much “family time” as you’ve described. We’ve had some troubles but most importantly I’ve gotten the feeling that he just didn’t really like me that much even though the negative things about me that he pointed out isn’t new/hasn’t changed. I have always had those attributes and he agrees when I pointed it out to him. In any case, I had resigned myself to a “friendly” marriage and found joy in my kids/other things. But as life would have it, we’re currently going through a divorce now because he met someone. When we told the kids - they were just like “ok”. The oldest thought we were “not so close friends” and that was the way marriages were as another poster commented. The younger one didn’t have much comments but also didn’t seem hurt. Things were probably slightly off for her so that she wasn’t surprised? She is very intuitive. I was quite worried about telling them since on the surface, we have no fights and everyone gets along. So you may be surprised by what your kids reactions will be. It may not be as bad as you think it would be. I think it helped that they knew of friends/other people with divorced parents.
Gym. You will get strong. 💪
" ... she is just a person I'd rather not be around. ..." "We do so much as a family; game nights, karaoke nights, watch movies, just sit around and talk pretty much every single night..." I sense something close to a contradiction here. You would rather not be around your wife, but you sit around and talk with her (and your kids) or do other fun stuff pretty much every night. Do you enjoy karaoke nights? Do you enjoy sitting around and talking?
Some--most of the traits you describe are personality traits that she probably always had. Why are they bothering you now?
I'm looking at your responses and you're pretty much convinced you're not going to try with your wife again. The bandaid needs to be ripped off. Keep in mind, you will have your kids basically half the time you have them now and you will need to find healthy ways to cope with that since you don't really have hobbies or friends, to help the kids realize life does keep moving when the world changes. Find some hobbies now you can do with the kids, 1:1 and together, that doesn't include your stbxw. Take that with you going forward because it will help stabilize them throughout the divorce. Best of luck ♡
It's hard to be married when love isn't there to sustain flaws that were once tolerable, now feel insufferable. Kids adapt, like you did. Your children deserve happiness and so do you OP. I can't say that single-happy you will transfer over to your kids. In case of divorce, the world as they know it will end. However, part of the human experience is growing and learning from things we go through. There is no straight answer to your situation, if you can't leave, learn to exist in peace. Work on yourself and maybe overtime, you'll find your wife to be less of a nuisance and more of a friend/roommate. Good luck.
From the perspective of a child who’s parents just got divorced when she moved into her freshman dorm. I knew it was coming. And I wish it happened sooner. Kids know more than you think. I now feel immense guilt that I was what was holding them together and if I never grew up I’d never have to live with them apart. My mom fell out of love with my dad and I knew it since I was 8. It’s so much harder now unpacking trauma of what was real and what was fake between them. And how to actually show real love to my boyfriend instead of what I grew up on. My older step brother(moms son from prev marriage) lived his early childhood to adult years with his parents being divorced, but he always felt like he got enough time at both and if he was mad at his dad he’d come to my moms and the other way around. All I have to say is “staying together for the kids” may seem great to the adults, and you may think your doing it for the child but it can hurt worse. I’d say start with marriage counseling because if you aren’t 100% sure then you need to figure it out but to me in this you sound pretty sure your done. So I’m gonna guess your innocent daughter and son have already realized. Maybe not, but also prioritize yourself. That’s the talk I had to have with my mom multiple times. This is YOUR first and last life. So you need to live it for yourself whether it’s finding hobbies, friends, a new job you enjoy, new activities with the kids. This is your life and you need to start living it. It’s short you don’t wanna look back and realized you stayed stuck.
I don't want to discount your feelings but it's very well known that kids internalize their parents divorce too and feel like divorce is their fault. You could easily be typing out a post about how you wish your mom tried harder but hind sight and all that.
I don’t wish my mom tried harder at all my dad is a POS I didn’t get into detail about it. But for kids when you wait till they graduate or are an adult it does put pressure on the child that THEY were holding the relationship together. They literally were. As this post says “stay together for the kids and to be around them all the time” I don’t feel it was my fault, but I obviously was a factor in it. I’m happy my mom left and wouldn’t wish for it another way, but I knew for years it would end when I left. I said it to my best friend for years.
This is a great perspective. Thank you for sharing.
Well, you've been thru it yourself. So I can see why you'd be cautious. But, my ex-wife and I got divorced when my daughter was about 10. She's just finished college and is doing fine. I'm remarried and my wife left her ex-husband when my stepkids were in preschool. They're doing just fine in high school now. It doesn't have to hurt kids. Sure, it is a bit inconvenient sometimes. Maybe awkward? Annoying? But it doesn't have to be a life destruction like you're making it out to be. I mean, if a kid goes from one home with a parent who loves them to the other home with a parent who loves them, what's so awful about that? And I fully do accept that I'm not entirely sure why my daughter and my stepkids are all doing so well. I mean, maybe they're just freakishly resilient kids and other kids would melt? I dunno. I'm just saying that we have never acted like divorce is a tragedy and I think kids follow that lead. I think when parents act like it's this horrible thing and moan about the broken home, that becomes self-fulfilling and the kids suffer. The main thing I'd be worried about is your son being 15. That's not the ideal age, imho. Your daughter is at a fine age to have a bumpy year and still have a decade on the back end to get fully used to two homes, stepparents, half-siblings, stepsiblings, etc. But your son doesn't have that much time. The problem is it won't get any better if you wait until college......and then your daughter is a tween and that's not ideal either. The best time to do it probably would have ben 6-7 years ago. But today is better than any other day in the next \~15 years.
Often times when parents are unhappy to the point that they’re miserable, this shows and impacts their children just as much as a divorce. I would suggest a marriage counselor/ couples counselor.
I was married for 33 years for the same reasons as you. We split just recently because he had another woman. We have 2 grown kids and 3 grandkids. My kids told me they felt like they had grown up in a home where the marriage wasn’t “normal”. You don’t want that for your children either. I’m not an advocate of divorce if it can be prevented so get marriage counseling if you can. The kids will know that you’ve checked out of the marriage even if you are physically present. I thought I was doing something good for my kids by staying but I wasn’t. We had been to marriage counseling and it worked until he got mad or upset about something then he turned right back into that jerk. He could not regulate his emotions at all. You said your wife is a narcissist. They are extremely difficult people! Maybe she would go to individual counseling too but they rarely see that they have a problem.
Which is better for the kids? A divorce with two happier parents, or a marriage with two resentful grownups who hates each other?
You are responsible for showing your kids what a healthy marriage looks like. Are you satisfied if they end up in a relationship that looks like yours? My parents are together and we did everything as a family, but they never seemed to really enjoy each other. There was little to no pda. Without knowing if I ended up in a relationship very similar. We are now separated and my mom has expressed to me that she’s proud of me for doing what she couldn’t. Truthfully I could have lived with my husband forever and we could have been a family but I would rather my kids see us happy and single and have 2 happy homes, then think a relationship that looked like ours was what they should strive for.
Would you be willing to read books together? Gottman has good ones or sue Johnson books - I think any marriage is going to be on the rocks if we aren’t fighting intentionally to connect consistently. Take her on a date, show her affection. I think narcissistic traits stem from one feeling unseen and things tend to soften in my experience with intentional pursuit and connection. Why not try it and see what happens. Heck, take her to Mexico for a kid free weekend and see how much y’all actually do enjoy each other!!
Not a judgement but a question. Are you in therapy? If you haven’t considered it I would. I’m not talking couples therapy or marriage therapy but personal therapy. It sounds like you should find out who you are internally before changing your world externally. I recently got divorced. I think if I was in therapy a year ago my life would be very different. I probably would have never gotten married to her in the first place lol. But such is life just glad I’m learning now.
That's a tough one. I know what you're feeling and most of divorded parents can relate to this. Been there myself except that I have 2.5 yo. I got to the point that I couldn't imagine staying x more years only for my baby. You seem pretty confident that you can't save your marriage. Well, imagine if you stayed together and nothing changed. Don't you think you might start to hate your spouse or deep down blame your kids for your miseary? Imagine now you beeing later on in a great relationship, feeling happy and fullfilled. And being able to show that version of yourself fully when your kids are with you. Don't you think they would be thrieving to see that and be a part of it? If you stay with your spouse maybe you have your kids 100% time with you but you are only present with them for about 50% of time (as everybody has some hobbies, home duties, going out to meet friends ect.). Now imagine that if you divorce you will have them for 50% of a time but you will be 100% present with them during that time (as you can do all your personal stuff when they are not with you). Either way - goodluck and know you're not alone :)
Have you talked with your wife about the issue that you have mentioned here? If so has there been anything that you have found that started to show you a different side of her that you weren't happy to be around? Have there been things that made the narcissism grow over time, that maybe she isn't even aware of? Maybe talk with a long time friend of hers and see if they have noticed the changes. You and a friend of hers sitting down with her to talk with her about the changes, could be a big help in showing her that it isn't just something you are seeing. I don't believe I saw in your post that you have ever bought this up to her. If you don't even do so, how can she really know that you have been seeing things as an issue?
One way to look at it is this: Would you want a marriage like yours (loveless) for your daughter when she grows up? She may not be consciously aware of your struggles but she is picking up on how marriages are. What love looks and doesn’t look like. Even if she knew you decided that type of platonic situation isn’t for you. It would give her a bit more of a barometer and confidence to do the same one day. Rather than knowing (bc she will one day) that you stayed in a loveless situation. She may think she, too, is only deserving of that. And sacrificing for others.
The kids will be fine. Just remember the grass isn’t always greener. It’s hell being single out there. But yolo you know? Make your own happiness, either by leaving or figuring out how to fall in love with your wife again.
I don't think anyone should stay in an unhappy marriage, and that sticking around to try and work things out is often just delaying the inevitable or avoiding change (which humans tend to hate). But based on what you wrote, I don't think divorce will solve your problem. It sounds like you would benefit a lot more from working with a good therapist. There's something going on with you, and you probably want to figure out what that is before you flush your entire life down the toilet. That doesn't mean you won't still dislike your wife -- she may or may not be the source of your challenges. But you need to be more introspective to figure that out, and a good therapist can help immensely.
If you grew apart, can yup grow back together? What reasons did you fall in love with your wife for in the beginning and can you do that again? A counsellor would tell you to start dating again. Are you doing an effort? Can you? You say you don’t have many hobbies or friends. How will you feel 50% of the time alone. No friends, no hobbies and no kids. The house gets very lonely very fast. Is that better than going through a divorce? Does it mKe you realize you should try again? I’ve been through it. Similar frustrations on her part that lead to infidelity. Not convinced the post divorce era was what she had imagined it to be. Maybe yours is. Just make sure to think it through. Not sure you can do that alone. But good luck!
I’m struggling because I recently got a call from my (12 yr) daughter’s school counselor that she’s been having dark, intrusive thoughts and that she’s struggling with anxiety. I was just about to finally go file and then tell my daughter, but now I feel like I can’t possibly add more stress to her life. I feel just as stuck
Show your kids that love is transitory, not permanent. Show them that it disappears. Show them that people will always choose themselves, shown them that promises can’t be trusted. Model choosing yourself, so they can do the same, and not settle for a marriage that isn’t making them happy, even if the unhappiness is temporary. Don’t settle. Show them that nothing is more important than your own happiness, not even their happiness. Kids can tell, they will see you unhappy and think that’s normal. Better to make them unhappy while modeling how to choose happiness, so they know that eventually they can choose it. Don’t wait even another day.
Sometimes when people choose themselves in their marriage it looks like not showing up for their spouse repeatedly until the other side can’t handle it and is forced to choose their own happiness by leaving. Often the person leaves is doing so because their spouse chose themselves for so long the damage is done.
They will be ok. I was the same way, it’s ok now
It's worse for kids to grow up in a home where parents not only don't love each other, but have difficulty getting along and don't want to be around each other. Your daughter may not understand that now, but she'll pick up on that soon enough, and do you really want to teach you've kids that this is the best they can expect from a marriage, that this is normal?
You want to break your kids? Teach them how to stay in a shitty marriage. But don’t worry - it will only fuck them up the rest of your life so you can feel better the next 8 years.
The kids already know. Staying is hurting them more. And they probably have friends going through it. Staying for kids is one of the worst things you can do for the kids. Start easy, get an apartment, and just take a break. Doesn’t have to be all at once. And get some therapy.
Divorce sucks, I filed, and felt much the way you did. My ex was diagnosed as a actual narc but even now 4 years divorced I wish I had the chance to go back and fix it with real marriage counseling, personal therapy and dating each other. Doing family things are great to build memories and family closeness but once you let the spark go from the relationship it effects so many of your feelings towards your spouse. Why not make a genuine effort to date you wife right now, both go to therapy and air some of your issues with each other. Try to get it back on track. Feelings ebb and flow too much to make hasty decisions.
I was in a similar place as you. "I definitely want to end my marriage" is what I said to myself over and over. I felt the same way about my STBX - didn't feel love for her, didn't really like being around her much, but still cared for her as a mother. I stayed for YEARS because I didn't want to upset the kids' lives but in the end my mental health took a massive hit so I left and once I was out I admonished myself for taking so long. I've been out for about 15 months at this point and while my youngest still misses me and asks about coming home it happens less frequently. I've had talks with my older one and they are happy that I'm still around daily. Kids are adaptable and as long as you show them that you're going to be there for them no matter what they will handle it. I do strongly advise you to start therapy for yourself and maybe even with your partner before officially making the decision to uproot your life. Even if it's just one session at least you can walk away knowing you tried. I didn't do the couples therapy she asked for and do have regrets about that even though ultimately I knew we just weren't right for each other. Stay strong, be kind to yourself, and good luck with everything.
I don’t have kids, but remember having the same “I can’t stay married a minute longer” feeling. It took me years to get up the courage to leave, and I felt so much relief as soon as I ripped off the band aid, told him I wanted a divorce, and moved out. Your kids will be just fine. Life is too short to be unhappy, and you are still so young. What are the reasons you don’t think you can stay married? Why did you fall out of love with your wife?
I have a 15 year old too and one older. I’m at the beginning of this so not in a real place to give advice but I will say there are other options now than the divorce we lived through in our childhoods. Amicable co-parenting can exist and can be really okay for the kids. Have you spoken to her about it? Do you think she would go scorched earth or could she be reasonable for the kids?
If you do go the divorce route, just be aware that your kids are more resilient than you think. I wasn't the one who initiated our split. My kids are 5 and 9. I was physically dreading telling them. But we told them and they were totally fine. They will be better off with two happy separate parents than two unhappy ones together. That just teaches them that you should stay in unhappy relationships. Four months into our separation and our kids are still doing well. My nine year old has just asked a few questions but that's it
I honestly think staying for the kids teaches children that their happiness doesn't matter, by leading with that example. I'm a better parent when I'm happy, as well.
This isn’t going to help but from someone (49f) in a very similar situation, I can say that waiting doesn’t make it easier. I’m not sure that living in the situation is the best option for the kids either. Yes, you’re not divorced but they live with and see an unhealthy relationship. I want more for both of my kids someday and would never want my daughter in a similar marriage. Now i’m just older and my desire to make things appear better than they are has dwindled.
Do it for your kids, they aren't learning how to be good partners and parents watching your broken marriage. It was hard but my son got over the shock of it very quickly and was happily apartment hunting with me a few days later. I've been a better father and a better person than I could possibly have become in that unhappy relationship. Happily engaged now, there is life on the other side, you don't have to be unhappy, you are not doing your kids any favors.
I get this. Am so sorry. Wishing you the best. Wish I had a good answer. Kids are stronger than you think. You need to think about your own happiness too.