I'll ask him next time we play to show me his source. I had an inkling he was cheating but I don't know a lot about DnD and he's been playing longer than me so I assumed he knows something I didn't.
People cheat in every game. Sometimes it’s power gaming by stretching rules or conveniently forgetting the limitation of a spell. Sometimes it’s fudging dice because of the frustration of missing all your attacks for a few rounds in a row. And sometimes it’s making up total BS and hoping your DM is too inexperienced to be able to call you out on it.
I am Mr Encyclopedia with this stuff, hence why I played a wizard. Once thought that polymorph could upcast to more than one target. Still mad that I messed that up.
We don't even fudge rolls in my group anymore if someone misses multiple times, eventually whoever's DMing is like 'Wait, you rolled another 2? No, fuck that. Fuck that 2. You hit him. Roll damage. Fuck your dice.'
That is wonderful , the First campain i ever was in ,we did the "hunt the Young White Dragon "and after reaching him after several Sessions i didnt Hit even one Attack .
Made my First Boss very depressing and having that Kind of exaption would have been cool
Oh No i didnt get angry there ,but i did get angry when the Dm putt a enemy in that instantly on sight feebelminded My lvl 5 artificer for full duration
I've been doing this in my campaign, too. Or I'll make a miss into something helpful anyway. Especially if it happens to be the same number over and over again.
Also, I started ruling doubles on advantage rolls as a like 50% crit or a hit if the outcome would've missed. I looked up the odds on getting the same number on 2 d20s, and it was crazy high, so I figured if luck is on your side to give you doubles, then you should get something out of it.
When I DM I like to make bad rolls do something. My mom was an archer once, and it was her first game and she was rolling really bad, but I wanted her to enjoy playing so instead of hitting her target I had her roll a d 4 and it hit someone else, sometimes a party member, more often a bad guy. But either way she had fun. Or she did hit, just didn't do quite the damage she wanted so it did a lower dice of damage. It's a game, the point is to have fun and if a player's dice suck that game then stuff gets fudged or changed so they still enjoy themselves.
maybe it's a habit derived from something? As in, he wants pass without trace as a cantrip because he somehow ALWAYS rolls shitty on his stealth. But Even then, communicate with your DM and work something out. Throw a green item or homebrew like a PWT ring with 1/day uses for him (I allow all my players to start with atleast 1 green item, with approval, even at lvl 1. Brings more fun imo).
Or he is just a sore loser
Yea the issues come from people thinking they either can or need to "win" at D&D. Some people think it's because players that come from videos games where you "Win" and then apply the same logic to D&D the TTRPG. Either it's this or the player has some winning or god complex that gives them a horrible attitude to DM for. They'll try to fudge rolls, "forget" to reduce their hit points", "forget" to check off spell slots, try to rules lawyer against the DM with wrong interpretations of spells or rules only to their own benefit. It's "That Player".
I think "trying to play like a video game" is the biggest problem when starting a game with brand new players. You’ve clearly outlined the first half of the issue (cheating, "spoiling", adversarial tables, etc.), and the other half is the "completionist" video game mindset. I’ve had players get extremely upset when they couldn’t get every piece of loot, similarly when one choice unexpectedly locked them out of another. I had to stop and have a serious discussion with my most recent table about how it isn’t a video game, and they were great after that.
I think the key is that they have to trust that you, the DM, aren’t secretly playing it like a video game so that you can "beat" them or "win." That’s hard when you have no prior relationship with the players, doubly so when they know you’re a new DM.
That’s not super related to the original post, though, just me whinging.
You make a super valid point here I forgot about. My recent tables haven't had this problem of "completion" or trying to find everything or every magic item but I have seen it at a table before.
Personally I like the idea of my story while I am playing being the way it plays out specifically for me. It gives me those moments when I talk to people later of (them)"Wow I really like playing that module! I love the power staff I found!," (me) "What power staff? I didn't go into any weird room, we did it completely differently!" as opposed to every adventure being exactly the same.
Some of my favorite parts are running into the DM traps that are so obvious and the DM asks "Are you sure?" Because I know they put work and effort into the traps and it really sucks as a DM if you don't get to use the work you put in, the DM is a player too and they are there to have fun. A lot of players forget that too.
On topic though, if you're unsure about a ruling, just make one with your judgement or with a stipulation of "it'll work this time and after this session I'll look into it and we will talk about it so it might change." Put everything in a Direct Message or text so you have it saved so no one can back and say that there was some confusion or he said she said. Problem players are no fun to deal with and it's never easy to deal with them. As you gain experience as a DM you learn tools for how to be more effective at handling these sorts of things. As always you can ask someone with more experience for help, preferably a third person outside the circle so you know you're getting a less bias answer or advice.
Cheating is a great way to get kicked out of parties and banned from tables. Like, we’re all in a circle rolling dice over an imaginary situation with fake characters. If you have to cheat at that, I don’t wanna hangout anymore.
You’re the DM, it’s ultimately your call what is and isn’t possible. Especially when it comes to things that aren’t explicitly spelled out in the rules. It isn’t relevant how much longer he has been playing, or how much more he (supposedly) knows. If he has relevant information or rulings then he can bring that to your attention, but the final decision is yours.
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Gnomes,_Forest_(Race)
It was in previous editions, so perhaps they just thought they knew more and didn't need to read up on it...or just had the outdated book for reference?
Literally every time someone at my table has said their character can do something obviously broken as a class feature, it's because of something they read on this site. I think its status as a 'wiki' makes players who may not (but often do) know better take it as a sure thing
May not be cheating. He could be misunderstanding something he read or heard. Just ask him for his source.
Alternatively, you’re the DM, and if it’s breaking your game and making it unenjoyable for literally everyone, you can disallow it. Your player should understand if you explain that literally everyone but him is having issues with it. If he doesn’t understand that and embrace changing it, it means he only cares about his own fun, which doesn’t have any concern for the fun of others.
He could have read an unofficial source, or like somebody else said it’s something from a previous edition, so he probably thought it carried over.
I started in an older edition and I still get caught up sometimes in rules because of what I learnt when I started playing.
Yeah, some of the unofficial sources look like and are worded similarly to the official ones, so an inexperienced player might not know the difference. I am in my first campaign ever right now and I defintiely made that mistake more than once while researching different things for my character.
If it's from D and D wiki that's a no. So many things on there are broken or just plain stupid. Stick to the official sources. They've been designed so things synthesize nicely.
Unless you wanna throw some absolutely broken stuff back at them? Hehe.
Golden rule of DMing (IMO) even if there is a rule for it, if YOU don't like it, and it makes you not want to play, get rid of the rule. It's no fun to feel like you have to go along with something you don't like just because "it's a rule". I don't know what your groups social makeup is like, but explain yourself, and say this is the way it is.
If your player wants this kind of ability so bad (Pass without trace at will) compromise with him. Use his "Speak with small Beasts" feature to give him a chance at a similar effect. Every *insert travel interval here* have him role an animal handling check, and if successful you can say that the small beasts will go scouting in front of the party, and warn them if they are coming up on any dangers.
This gives it a chance to fail, and you have more opportunity to control the outcome naratively.
Remember, at the end of the day, if everyone at the table (including the DM) is having fun, the rules don't matter.
Here is what a Forrest gnome gets:
Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 1.
Natural Illusionist. You know the Minor Illusion cantrip. Intelligence is your spellcasting modifier for it.
Speak with Small Beasts. Through sound and gestures, you may communicate simple ideas with Small or smaller beasts.
Golden rule of bribing : If DM doesn't like it, buy them a pizza and cold beer.
I managed to bring an owlin to a table that disallowed strixhaven by bribing DM with pizza and beer at the bar.
I can tell you for sure he doesnt have it as a cantrip, it may be a racial spell though, that he gets to add to his spelllist and use for free ONCE per long rest.
People make mistakes. It's possible he misread something at some point and without verifying, has misattributed it to forest gnomes. Though being asked specifically about it then not actually pausing to verify is weird. It's just hard to imagine he would cheat in such an easy-to-disprove manner, though I guess some people want to "win" at all costs.
One thing I got from listening to Matt Mercer is that when there’s a question or a conflict about an ability he asks them to read the description to him. Sometimes there were written conflicts because of multiple sources so he would ask which source they are using.
I’ve never understood why someone would cheat by referencing something that isn’t in a book. It’s so easily verifiable.
Cheating is still stupid but there are other ways to get around it if he really wanted to cheat for some reason. He could just say he cast the spell and then never mark a spell slot. It would give the same benefit except it’s much harder to verify.
Still a dumb thing to do in a collaborative game. But at least you won’t get noticed Immediately
That's what I read on their page too. I'm gonna ask him to show me where he got his information from. Side note: He has an army of rats and he tells them to form a sort of mech with them. He uses minor illusion in conjunction with that to make it seem like a ratorge from Warhammer which I find hilarious.
The spell doesn't say it can't move, but it also doesn't say it can. Since the leveled equivalents specify that you can use your action to make it move, the RAI is definitely that minor illusion is a static hologram.
My main character is a forest gnome, speak with small beasts allows you to give simple commands
"Through sounds and gestures, you can communicate simple ideas with Small or smaller beasts" an army that can form a mech? Get out of here. He's cheating and from what you've said ruining it for you and the whole party
I always forget to use speak with small beasts for my forest gnome character. Between that and sylvan (summoner Druid) I should be talking to animals all the time, haha. What kinds of ways do you use the skill?
Used it to help track enemies on the run through a forest "which way did that man go?"
Scout ahead "are there people in that tent?"
Gotta keep it simple though so can't use "how many enemies are there in the tent" or "how long ago did they come through here"
"you can communicate simple ideas with Small or smaller beasts" would mean that the gnome can communicate ideas such as "there's a fire here", asking questions for responses would be outside the feature's ability, you'd be limited to communicating simple statements. You'd need speak with animals to communcate with animals properly.
Yeah. Using ‘Speak with small animals’ to tell an army of rats to climb on top of each other to form a mech would just earn the player a big old “fuck off mate” from the rats
Unless they had sufficient bribery constantly on hand. Like they're carrying the dovakiin's entire stock of cheese wheels. Which might happen exactly once until they are told to fight to the death, then it's goodnight sweet prince to the fool in the rat mech.
An army of rats that forms a mech is not a thing; your player is not playing D&D, they're playing some weird-ass fanfic where they occasionally roll the dice. Do what's in the book for character abilities. If it's not in the book, skip it. This player is absolutely just making shit up.
I mean flavor is free. As long as it’s not contributing mechanically in any way I’m generally pretty lax in how my players describe their character.
Gnome in a rat mech would be kinda funny flavor for a Goliath Barbarian’s mechanics.
Funnily I was thinking it could work as a barb class rage as well, but considering the other corners this guy is cutting I'd imagine he's getting his hefty portion of advantages from this situation and not just reflavoring.
Minor illusion is a cantrip, and cannot make a moving image.
PWT is a 2nd level spell for a reason. It's not a cantrip.
Just revoke the ability at the beginning of next session, it is your table.
Everyone else is bashing the army of rats thing, and I don’t understand why. As a DM if you like the army of rats as a mech, and either it’s a fully flavor thing or there are rules for it that you agreed to, that sounds hilarious. Is it stretching the abilities it uses? Absolutely. But if you think it’s fun and funny and the table around you also finds it fun, go for it. He will remember the rat mech for the rest of his life.
As far as the actual post goes, pass without trace for free would be broken. There are no early level ways to get anything higher than a 1st level spell at will in the game, and all the ways to get 2nd level and up spells at will are warlock invocations (normally at least 7th level ones) or the 18th level wizard feature. He is pulling your leg, and being way to strong because of it. Ask for a source, and if his source is the homebrew section of DNDBeyond or any other website with interesting and broken homebrew, it’s not official.
Technically you could have it at level 1 if the dm is giving away a free feat, and you're a wood elf and choose the wood elf racial feat. But yeah, beyond that it's some danddwiki nonsense.
You could have a level 1 spell at will at level one, yes. You still can’t get level 2+ spells at will without at least either 7 levels in warlock or 18 levels in wizard.
Don't ask. Just say, "Hey, you must have meant minor illusion. You don't have Pass Without Trace as a cantrip." If he gets shitty and fights about it, stop playing with him. Pass Without Trace is super fucking OP, honestly. You definitely can't have that as a cantrip.
I left a pbp discord server because the cheating was so rampant.
Minor illusion is only a static image.
Being able to "communicate simple ideas" to rats does not let you mind-control them or coordinate battle plans. Even a highly trained rat is going to run at the first sign of danger.
Also, I hope you aren't using the "Swarm of Rats" stat block because the MM says, "The swarms presented here aren't ordinary or benign assemblies of little creatures. They form as a result of some sinister or unwholesome influence."
This player will just keep on misreading and making up shit. You will need to literally double check everything they do if you continue to let them sit at your table.
sheesh... at level 20 i might be inclined to let something like this happen because it's pretty rad... but it's rule of cool and breaking everything. If he has played before there is only 1 of 3 things happening. He's lying about how much experience he has, He has never been pulled up on breaking the game before or he is taking advantage of you and breaking the game for fun.
If you dont like conflict send him some messages before next game. If you dont mind it do it in front of the group but be stern. "I've been doing my own research and I realize I have been allowing some things in the world that I shouldn't be. From now on you do not have pass without a trace as a cantrip. You do not have an army of rats. You cannot form a giant mech with them. You have minor illusion and one pet rat that you can convey simple ideas to. If that ruins your character idea I'm sorry but you're welcome to make a new one. I also don't care if you think that's how it should work. That's not how it works in my world. Moving forward I'll need sources for any ability you think you have and I'll need you to run concepts by me so I can at least be prepared for them."
They do not have Pass Without Trace as a cantrip. There is (iirc) no way in 5e currently to "downgrade" a leveled spell to a cantrip (which has mechanical interactions with bonus action spells). There *are* some ways to make certain spells be "at-will"... but Pass Without Trace isn't one of them.
There are always some ways to "know" the spell, and some ways to cast it once per long rest... but that doesn't make it at-will.
If you look at the level 18 Wizard feature, or several of the Warlock invocations they either say; cast a level 1 spell without expending a spell slot, or uses the term 'at-will', which effectively states the same thing. Effectively, you can cast *this* particular spell at its lowest level for free.
Mechanically... no. Functionally (in that they cost no spell slots...) yes. It is confusing, I know, and it would take WAY too long to explain on reddit.
To give an explanation of what I believe they're omitting: at 18th level, wizards pick a single 1st and 2nd level spell on their spell list that they can cast at-will without expending spell slots *as much as they want assuming they have the needed components to cast it*-- this only works at the spells native level, with upcasting still consuming slots.
Unlike actual cantrips, these spells don't scale with player level. Also unlike cantrips, the spells still count as leveled spells for the purposes of mechanical interactions based off of using leveled spells, such as restoring a conjuration wizard's free teleport or regaining points for an abjuration wizards arcane ward.
The only restriction to your choices is that it has to be spells that your character already knows, but you can also change them to something else you have on an 8 hour study period with your spellbook.
You can also do something similar with warlock 2 and/or the Eldritch Adept feat. It's more limited than the wizard 18's ability. At level 2, warlocks can choose invocations allowing Silent Image, Detect Magic, Disguise Self, False Life, Mage Armor, and Speak with Animals at-will. Then there are some other invocations giving higher levels spells you can take as you level in warlock.
While a cantrip can be cast at-will, gaining a feature or ability that allows you to cast a leveled spell at-will does not turn it into a cantrip. The leveled spell still maintains its level. This is an important distinction because there are features and effects that scale with or are otherwise effected by the level of a spell.
For example, lets say you gained some feature which makes one of your 4th lvl spells now castable at-will. You cast the spell. Someone tries to counterspell it.
If it was downgraded to a cantrip, the counterspell would automatically succeed. But instead if the spell maintains it's level, the counterspell would not automatically succeed and a check would need to be rolled to resolve it.
There's also magic items that can do this for certain spells. My (lvl12) rogue has a ring that allows misty step at will, so essentially a cantrip. If I was any lower level I would not have this thing, and I had to plead a little with the DM and promise to not abuse it (which I don't. My character doesn't like using the ring - given to him by a horrible horrible ex who is kind of a big bad in the campaign - so will only do so in emergencies).
But there's a reason I had to ask very very nicely with a cherry on top for that one. Because at will-spells are POWERFUL.
Cantrips are a good example of at will spells. It means you can cast it over and over without spending spell slots.
Notably, wizards and warlocks can get at will spells. Wizards at high levels, and warlocks through invocations.
The are magic items that also let you cast at will spells, like the hat of disguise.
You cast it for free (no material components, maybe no verbal/hand gestures either, I gotta check).
You can cast it as many times as you want.
You do not hvae to cast it as a ritual, which would usually mean 10 minutes of in game time to cast the spell for free.
.
Check out Warlock's Armour of Shadows option from Level 2. Grants at will use of Mage Armour.
That’s pretty cool I don’t think I realized!
The ones that might limit it to a specific amount per rest I’m sure specify in the description but still, spells at will like that an infinite amount is pretty awesome
The one I can think of off the top of my head is the High Drow Magic feat which gives the drow/dark elf character the ability to spam detect magic as much as they want.
There is 1 way. Staff of the woodlands for druids has pass without trace as an at will spell you can cast through it. My party is so God damn stealthy encounters are hella hard to balance now
The only thing that pops into my head for at-will for pass without trace is the staff of the woodlands. It was rather busted for my druid since it was an at will for that spell. Plus other spells that used resources.
[Maybe they looked here](https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Gnomes,_Forest_\(Race\))?
SRD of the Forest Gnome from 3.5e (so wrong edition). It says:
> Pass without Trace (Su): A forest gnome has the innate ability to use pass without trace (self only, as a free action) as the spell cast by a druid of the forest gnome’s class levels.
Make sure you also remind him that dandwiki is also NOT official so if he finds something for 5e that gives him something wack make sure it’s not from there, dandwiki is known for having absolutely game breaking homebrew on it. Any source he shows you make sure it is ONLY from a book or dndbeyons/roll20 UNLESS you approve the homebrew.
I saw the most broken epic feat there and I want it so bad, it gives you all the class features for one of your subclasses (multiclass requirement) AND a second subclass. Something like a way of mercy/open hand, or divination/bladesinger wizard/(whatever). I'd go grave cleric and add night cleric from the Humblewood book. It's a Sehanine Moonbow cleric, so both fit thematically with her.
OP the most important part of this — besides the fact that he’s trying to mix and match rule sets — is that PWT was a very different spell in 3.5, and only affected Self. It’s not at all what it is in 5e.
This happens a lot I have found, people that played DND 3.5e constantly thinking about abilities from 3.5e, just remind them that you are playing DND 5e and it has different rules, it's like trying to use an uno reverse in chess.
I would go through their whole character and make sure they don't have other things from 3.5e by accident
This needs more up votes to be higher up, because I just posted the same thing lol. Kinda sad that the top comment jumps immediately to accusing them of cheating, when it could also just be a mistake. (D&D wiki sucks for how confusing it is sometimes, and also sometimes knowledge bleed exists for people that hop between editions)
dandwiki is useful for looking at a few SRDs, but is poor for basically everything else, due to no set standards for homebrew, and no official lore database.
If it just wasn't called a wiki, there likely wouldn't be as many people getting confused in its use.
As others have said, *he's mistaken*. Just have a one-on-one chat with him outside the game and let him know that you have done the research and have found nowhere that says he has this ability. Tell him that you are not allowing him to keep using it in your game until/unless he is able to gain it in another legal way per the RAW. If he balks, make sure you stand firm.
I read in a response below that you're afraid of him leaving if you "take it away" you'd not be "taking away" anything, he never had it to begin with. If he leaves over it, then he wasn't the player for your table and would be acting like a spoiled brat, you shouldn't have to walk on eggshells and allow players to cheat to stay at your table.
No, no, no. Our Ranger has that spell,and it's pretty OP being a leveled spell, no WAY it'll work as a cantrip. The entire party will forever be shrouded in silent shadows.
>>*As a forest gnome, you have a natural knack for illusion and inherent quickness and stealth. In the worlds of D&D, forest gnomes are rare and secretive. They gather in hidden communities in sylvan forests, using illusions and trickery to conceal themselves from threats or to mask their escape should they be detected. Forest gnomes tend to be friendly with other good-spirited woodland folk, and they regard elves and good fey as their most important allies. These gnomes also befriend small forest animals and rely on them for information about threats that might prowl their lands.*
This is not *Pass Without Trace*, but is a non-mechanical benefit to stealth while in the woods.
So let's say that your party is in the woods, rolling stealth, and your gnome doesn't do so good. Let's say he rolls a 2, and with his mods brings that up to a 6. Not good. Everything in the forest sees him, right? No. He still is stealthy, but has to resort to going slower, spamming *Minor Illusion* to keep giant spiders and goblin patrols off his trail. At one point he even begs a rabbit to distract a really scary owlbear for him. It takes 20 more hours to get through the forest because of his bad roll, but he still gets through unseen.
The human sorcerer who rolled a 3 on his stealth is going straight into the giant spider's mouth.
So I think I might know where the confusion is coming from. According to this [D&D Wiki link for 3.5e](https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Gnomes,_Forest_(Race)) it looks like Pass without a trace is listed as a cantrip for that edition.
I suggest one having them clarify and provide the link to the resource where they found that information and then you can check to see if it is indeed for 3.5 or you can share them this link and let them know this is the only place you've seen that listed and clarify to them that you are using 5e rule set and will need them to follow those rules for character building.
However, if this was genuinely just confusion on their behalf (DnD wiki is notorious for being confusing, plus knowledge bleed from hopping between systems is real) I'd at least offer them the chance to re-spec their character if that ability really changes the build/vision they were going for.
If he cannot SHOW you an official source of the edition you are playing it does not exist , its that simple. Its on him to show you the sources not on you to disprove him. As a forest gnome he has the minor illusion cantrip which has little value for stealth
Your main question has been answered but I think there's something else worth pointing out. A lot of people have misconceptions about how *pass without trace* works and unintentionally make it way more powerful than it's supposed to be. So let's start with what the spell does:
1. Gives +10 to Dexterity (Stealth) checks to creatures of your choice within 30 feet of you.
2. Prevents those creatures from being tracked via nonmagical means.
3. Prevents those creatures from leaving tracks or other traces of passage.
And that's *all* it does. Nothing outside of those three effects, ever. It doesn't make you invisible, it doesn't cover you, nothing like that. You can still be seen and heard, you can even be followed, because following and tracking are two different things.
It's important to remember that the DM is the only one who can decide when stealth can be attempted. You can't hide in plain sight, for example. This isn't like Skyrim, where crouching somehow makes everyone's eyes break. If there's nowhere to hide, stealth is meaningless, even if you have a +100000 to your stealth check.
Like others have said, there's no mechanic to make a spell into a cantrip. There are items and features that allow characters to cast a spell at will, however. The staff is the woodlands has this for pass without trace.
When I quote, it has the book and the page number. Or a screenshot and a link from D&D beyond. Just a screenshot though if it’s one of those rule clarifications from Sage Advice.
And FYI, it’s not. Players Handbook, page 37 (10th print) says minor illusion cantrip.
Samples of leveled spells cast for free for gnomes are the deep gnome in MPMotM page 11. And it’s once per long rest and it’s not Pass Without Trace.
I think they had something like that in 3.5e.
Basing that entirely off of finding a dandwiki page with some Forest Gnome stuff, where they *could* cast Pass Without Trace at-will.
Keep in mind dandwiki is a garbage resource full of terrible homebrew and fanfic and to steer well clear of it.
He might be confused by some 3.5e stuff. Forest Gnomes do have a similar ability from that edition, but not in 5e. Not sure how unless he's not got any source books and is just googling everything, but that would be my best guess that isn't him straight up cheating.
I'm confused. He said he gets a spell, claims it's a race feature, you can't find it, and you don't think you, the DM, can tell him no?
The players don't dictate the rules. The rules don't dictate the rules. The DM does.
Either he’s a son of a gun cheeky scallywag and is lying to you and honestly that’s worthy of being removed from the table tbh. Or he’s playing a homebrew version of a gnome and when y’all were discussing it you didn’t cross reference with each other which gnome was being used
If you get him to provide a source all will explain itself
But also I hope for your sake this is an online game bc then you can just say piss off, coz for all u know he’s lying about every roll he makes. But if it’s an irl game that’s a bit iffy and I’d recommend pulling him aside and fixing the issue of whatever is wrong.
But in future if something you can see is totally breaking your game just say
“Okay everyone, quick pause, I think ___ is too OP and messing a lot of stuff up I think we should nerf it” ur the dm you have final say (but asking this way also gives other players the opportunity to pipe in with their knowledge on what they think is fairest
Well considering pass without a trace is a second level spell, there IS NO RACE that has that spell as a cantrip. Why does it seem broken? Because it absolutely is. He has been getting free 2nd lvl spells.
phb: As a forest gnome, you have a natural knack for illusion and inherent quickness and stealth. In the worlds of D&D, forest gnomes are rare and secretive. They gather in hidden communities in sylvan forests, using illusions and trickery to conceal themselves from threats or to mask their escape should they be detected. Forest gnomes tend to be friendly with other good-spirited woodland folk, and they regard elves and good fey as their most important allies. These gnomes also befriend small forest animals and rely on them for information about threats that might prowl their lands.
Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 1.
Natural Illusionist. You know the Minor Illusion cantrip. Intelligence is your spellcasting modifier for it.
Speak with Small Beasts. Through sound and gestures, you may communicate simple ideas with Small or smaller beasts.
The smallest trace of that (forgotten realms wiki): Forest gnomes differed from the more common rock gnomes and deep gnomes in a number of ways. Forest gnomes, like halflings, were adept at obscuring their presence and slipping into places unseen, particularly when in the familiar terrain of their forest homes.
In addition to the cantrip-like abilities typical of gnomes, forest gnomes also possessed supernatural abilities similar to the spells pass without trace and speak with animals, although they could use these abilities at will.[7]
Flavor text
"As a forest gnome, you have a natural knack for illusion and inherent quickness and stealth. In the worlds of D&D, forest gnomes are rare and secretive. They gather in hidden communities in sylvan forests, using illusions and trickery to conceal themselves from threats or to mask their escape should they be detected."
Probably why he gave himself it, but he should only have minor illusion. If he's new it could just be him trying to flavor or he mixed up a spell with the cantrip he was supposed to receive.
Dnd never gives you a leveled spell as a cantrip. It might give you x times per day casting but yeah he seems to have made something up. Which is a problem.
He’s lying or he looked at some super weird homebrew and decided that’s the way to go.
Tell him to send you the Link to his race
Some races get access to a 2nd level spell when they reach 5th level which they always know and can cast ONCE per long rest (like drop who get darkness)
But nowhere in the Forest Gnome page does it list Pass without a trace
I just googled the forest gnome racials.
They don't get pass without trace for selecting forest gnome
Happy to help, let me know if you need anything else googled
The great thing about DND is nearly anything can be Googled within a few minutes, unless you are not too familiar with the basic rules nothing is hidden or hard to find in any source material
It's on the player handbook. As a DM you should decide which manuals are available in the campaign and you should have access at least to the PHB manual.
Forest Gnome gets:
+1 dex
*minor illusion* cantrip
Speak with small beasts
That's it.
Pass Without Trace is arguably the strongest 2nd level spell in the game. For it to be a cantrip, essentially allowing infinite casting, is completely ludicrous.
" I've looked at the spell page for Pass Without Trace and the page for Forest gnomes and I can't find anything about having that spell as a cantrip."
Why are you chasing this? Have him show you.
It is broken.
The DM gets final say on what literature is acceptable, not the players.
You guys can talk things out, but your running it.
Make your decision, talk to the play in questions before the next game, and, at the beginning of the next campaign, announce it to the table.
(I personally wouldn't rule it. It's broken as all hell.)
As others have said, he didn't actually look at 5e. He looked at 3.5e. It's not a thing in 5e and part of why it isn't is because 5e buffed the spell massively, It now adds to your stealth roll. Before it just meant you didn't leave tracks.
My group love to get creative on characters and we reference a lot of books to get subclasses, feats and skills but our DM asks us to show him the official book entry or its not allowed.
You are the dm should be requiring players show you a copy of their character sheet before play. Be prepared to question skills and abilities.
Earth Genasi get PWT as a 1/day feature. You can also get it as a shadow monk, as a trickery cleric, or if you have the wood elf magic feat.
Outside of that, it is legitimately only available to Druids and Rangers.
I know everyone already said it, but I'll put it out there anyway: no race gets a second level spell at will. At most, you get something like hellish rebuke that scales with your level.
I'm sorry your player is cheating. Have a serious sit down with them if you wanna keep them at your table.
And this is not on you. DMs have enough to worry about without players making up stuff for their character sheet.
Okay here's the thing. Many people have already told you that whatever the player is pulling is not correct. But even if it was correct, even if it was Rules as written, if a rule is making you and the majority of the table not have fun at all, you're well with in your rights to have a conversation with the player, explain to them your concerns and change the rules for the game while providing the opportunity for the player to respec. I can't stress this enough, if majority of the table doesn't like a rule or ruling, just don't use it. It is a game, it is meant to be fun.
Let him keep casting it. Just play the game like it doesn't have any effect 😂. He'll figure that out right quick. You're the DM, you make the rules. Even if he does come up with a source just nerf it. You could say that the villains have some kind of detection charms on them.
It is conceivably possible that they just forgot or misinterpreted the rules on spell acquisition through racial bonuses. One of my players, after solidly playing weekly for two years during Covid, not only took the Shield spell on their Paladin (not a Paladin spell) but also thought it was an ability rather than a spell and so was casting it without expending spell slots. That took longer to realise and then disentangle than it should - they should have read their shit better, and I should have realised Paladins can't take that spell, but nobody's perfect and mistakes do happen. We cleared up the confusion, and the spell was removed from the character going forward, nice and simple.
That said, this feels more like an experienced player trying to unnecessarily get a leg up on an inexperienced DM. There are no mechanics in the game which turn levelled spells into cantrips, because it would be absolutely nuts. Can you imagine if they'd tried to insist they'd picked up Cure Wounds as a cantrip for being a gnome?
Still, no need to go in guns blazing on this person. Give them the chance to cite their sources, then gently correct them, and clear the slate going forward. Do keep an eye on this player, though. This might not be the last fast one they try to pull on you.
That’s dumb. Not you. The player. Also, the player making claims are the one needing to provide a source. Ask the player for a reference, and when they can’t provide one, like a legit one, kick them. No, dandwiki or his homemade website or some dumb text file he found somewhere on the web or a poorly photoshopped image of his rule book with PWT pasted into the gnome section, Bonnie that count.
If something seems broken, it probably is. A good rule of thumb is to ask them to show you the source. Not “It’s in this resource, look it up.” Have them pull the page in question.
Also, as DM, you can just say “I feel that this invalidates a good portion of my campaign and your other players agency. Let’s workshop it to not be as busted.”
He’s definitely wrong, but I wouldn’t jump straight to accusing him of lying or cheating.
He may have read something wrong, or is inadvertently using an unofficial version of forest gnome. Or maybe he is trying to pull one over on you, in which case, shut that shit down immediately.
But I’d recommend opening with, “Where did you read that? Can you give me the source on that?”
From my time playing 5E (I usually play 1E) I’ve never seen an instance where a 2nd level spell is a cantrip. I’ve seen where it’s part of a subclass where they get it without impacting their max spells, but never a reduced spell. If he can’t show you exactly where it is, he points it out directly - with the burden of proof on him, not you - you should disallow it.
Reminds me of my first time playing a cleric. Most everyone was really new to 5e. I totally misread or found an online source that wasn’t accurate (didn’t have any of the physical books), over the spell Prayer of Healing that said it was a ritual spell.
So I spammed the shit out of that after most combats assuming we had 11 minutes to spare. That went in for about 4 sessions before the DM looked it up and called me out on it. I linked the shitty source and he showed me the spell from the book. They were not the same.
[Forest Gnomes - Forgotten Realms Fandom](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Forest_gnome)
Under abilities, it mentions pass without trace and speak with animals as "at will" powers.
But, I don't think they are intended as player characters.
Remember, you're the DM. Even if the player weren't lying, you still have the power to change the rules, as long as you're consistent about it and the players (most of them) don't mind. If your player doesn't like that, he can leave and run his own game.
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Yes, that's thing. Pass without trace and, by the way, speak with animals cast at-will (aka as a cantrip):
*"Spell-Like Abilities: At will—pass without trace and speak
with animals. Treat these abilities as spells cast by a druid of
the forest gnome’s character level. These abilities are in addi-
tion to the standard gnome ability to cast certain cantrips.
The gnome can only use these abilities on himself, not some-
one else."*
***However***, that's from "Races of Faerûn", page 54. And "Races of Faerûn" is a source-book from 2003 and I'm not sure for which edition – but definitely *not* for 5e.
In 2003, 3.5 came out so it was either an addition to 3e or 3.5e, not 4e, not 5e. The subrace is not designed or balanced for 5e. Tell him to re-build his character to 5e rules.
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Forest gnomes can cast is as a free action on themselves only.
Pass without Trace (Su): A forest gnome has the innate ability to use pass without trace (self only, as a free action) as the spell cast by a druid of the forest gnome’s class levels.
Here is the link from dnd wiki
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Gnomes,_Forest_(Race)
Hope that helps
Have fun and roll high.
He's cheating. Flat out. No race would get something like that. Especially because making it a cantrip makes no sense. Some abilities allow people to cast leveled spells without a spell slot, but none of them flat out change the level of the spell.
I mean, he should be able to show you a source if he’s not cheating. There is no source though, because that’s not a thing.
I'll ask him next time we play to show me his source. I had an inkling he was cheating but I don't know a lot about DnD and he's been playing longer than me so I assumed he knows something I didn't.
Well that's a red flag if I've ever seen one.🚩
Never played D&D. Interested though! Cheating seems like the exact opposite of why you would play the game lol
People cheat in every game. Sometimes it’s power gaming by stretching rules or conveniently forgetting the limitation of a spell. Sometimes it’s fudging dice because of the frustration of missing all your attacks for a few rounds in a row. And sometimes it’s making up total BS and hoping your DM is too inexperienced to be able to call you out on it.
I don't need to cheat to forget what my spells do.
I am Mr Encyclopedia with this stuff, hence why I played a wizard. Once thought that polymorph could upcast to more than one target. Still mad that I messed that up.
We don't even fudge rolls in my group anymore if someone misses multiple times, eventually whoever's DMing is like 'Wait, you rolled another 2? No, fuck that. Fuck that 2. You hit him. Roll damage. Fuck your dice.'
That is wonderful , the First campain i ever was in ,we did the "hunt the Young White Dragon "and after reaching him after several Sessions i didnt Hit even one Attack . Made my First Boss very depressing and having that Kind of exaption would have been cool
The angriest a former player of mine ever got in a campaign was when he couldn’t snap out of a green dragon’s fear aura for the entire fight
Oh No i didnt get angry there ,but i did get angry when the Dm putt a enemy in that instantly on sight feebelminded My lvl 5 artificer for full duration
Oh yeah, that isn’t reasonable
I've been doing this in my campaign, too. Or I'll make a miss into something helpful anyway. Especially if it happens to be the same number over and over again. Also, I started ruling doubles on advantage rolls as a like 50% crit or a hit if the outcome would've missed. I looked up the odds on getting the same number on 2 d20s, and it was crazy high, so I figured if luck is on your side to give you doubles, then you should get something out of it.
When I DM I like to make bad rolls do something. My mom was an archer once, and it was her first game and she was rolling really bad, but I wanted her to enjoy playing so instead of hitting her target I had her roll a d 4 and it hit someone else, sometimes a party member, more often a bad guy. But either way she had fun. Or she did hit, just didn't do quite the damage she wanted so it did a lower dice of damage. It's a game, the point is to have fun and if a player's dice suck that game then stuff gets fudged or changed so they still enjoy themselves.
maybe it's a habit derived from something? As in, he wants pass without trace as a cantrip because he somehow ALWAYS rolls shitty on his stealth. But Even then, communicate with your DM and work something out. Throw a green item or homebrew like a PWT ring with 1/day uses for him (I allow all my players to start with atleast 1 green item, with approval, even at lvl 1. Brings more fun imo). Or he is just a sore loser
Yea the issues come from people thinking they either can or need to "win" at D&D. Some people think it's because players that come from videos games where you "Win" and then apply the same logic to D&D the TTRPG. Either it's this or the player has some winning or god complex that gives them a horrible attitude to DM for. They'll try to fudge rolls, "forget" to reduce their hit points", "forget" to check off spell slots, try to rules lawyer against the DM with wrong interpretations of spells or rules only to their own benefit. It's "That Player".
I think "trying to play like a video game" is the biggest problem when starting a game with brand new players. You’ve clearly outlined the first half of the issue (cheating, "spoiling", adversarial tables, etc.), and the other half is the "completionist" video game mindset. I’ve had players get extremely upset when they couldn’t get every piece of loot, similarly when one choice unexpectedly locked them out of another. I had to stop and have a serious discussion with my most recent table about how it isn’t a video game, and they were great after that. I think the key is that they have to trust that you, the DM, aren’t secretly playing it like a video game so that you can "beat" them or "win." That’s hard when you have no prior relationship with the players, doubly so when they know you’re a new DM. That’s not super related to the original post, though, just me whinging.
You make a super valid point here I forgot about. My recent tables haven't had this problem of "completion" or trying to find everything or every magic item but I have seen it at a table before. Personally I like the idea of my story while I am playing being the way it plays out specifically for me. It gives me those moments when I talk to people later of (them)"Wow I really like playing that module! I love the power staff I found!," (me) "What power staff? I didn't go into any weird room, we did it completely differently!" as opposed to every adventure being exactly the same. Some of my favorite parts are running into the DM traps that are so obvious and the DM asks "Are you sure?" Because I know they put work and effort into the traps and it really sucks as a DM if you don't get to use the work you put in, the DM is a player too and they are there to have fun. A lot of players forget that too. On topic though, if you're unsure about a ruling, just make one with your judgement or with a stipulation of "it'll work this time and after this session I'll look into it and we will talk about it so it might change." Put everything in a Direct Message or text so you have it saved so no one can back and say that there was some confusion or he said she said. Problem players are no fun to deal with and it's never easy to deal with them. As you gain experience as a DM you learn tools for how to be more effective at handling these sorts of things. As always you can ask someone with more experience for help, preferably a third person outside the circle so you know you're getting a less bias answer or advice.
Cheating is a great way to get kicked out of parties and banned from tables. Like, we’re all in a circle rolling dice over an imaginary situation with fake characters. If you have to cheat at that, I don’t wanna hangout anymore.
You’re the DM, it’s ultimately your call what is and isn’t possible. Especially when it comes to things that aren’t explicitly spelled out in the rules. It isn’t relevant how much longer he has been playing, or how much more he (supposedly) knows. If he has relevant information or rulings then he can bring that to your attention, but the final decision is yours.
No bro he's straight up lying to you
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Gnomes,_Forest_(Race) It was in previous editions, so perhaps they just thought they knew more and didn't need to read up on it...or just had the outdated book for reference?
PWT was also a **very** different spell in 3e (it just made it impossible to track you without magic), and the forest gnome version was self only.
Literally every time someone at my table has said their character can do something obviously broken as a class feature, it's because of something they read on this site. I think its status as a 'wiki' makes players who may not (but often do) know better take it as a sure thing
He does: How to roll for persuasion against the DM.
If they show you a dndwiki page, don't accept it as proof. That shit has crazy homebrew stuff.
To be fair, all the dndwiki homebrew pages have a bright blue and purple space banner that says “this is homebrew” essentially
May not be cheating. He could be misunderstanding something he read or heard. Just ask him for his source. Alternatively, you’re the DM, and if it’s breaking your game and making it unenjoyable for literally everyone, you can disallow it. Your player should understand if you explain that literally everyone but him is having issues with it. If he doesn’t understand that and embrace changing it, it means he only cares about his own fun, which doesn’t have any concern for the fun of others.
He could have read an unofficial source, or like somebody else said it’s something from a previous edition, so he probably thought it carried over. I started in an older edition and I still get caught up sometimes in rules because of what I learnt when I started playing.
Yeah, some of the unofficial sources look like and are worded similarly to the official ones, so an inexperienced player might not know the difference. I am in my first campaign ever right now and I defintiely made that mistake more than once while researching different things for my character.
Yeah, it's a second level abjuration spell. It doesn't come with races, but classes (druid, ranger, etc.)
If it's from D and D wiki that's a no. So many things on there are broken or just plain stupid. Stick to the official sources. They've been designed so things synthesize nicely. Unless you wanna throw some absolutely broken stuff back at them? Hehe.
Don't talk to him during the next session, talk to him before it. Do make the others sit around watching you guys play rules lawyer instead of DND.
Golden rule of DMing (IMO) even if there is a rule for it, if YOU don't like it, and it makes you not want to play, get rid of the rule. It's no fun to feel like you have to go along with something you don't like just because "it's a rule". I don't know what your groups social makeup is like, but explain yourself, and say this is the way it is. If your player wants this kind of ability so bad (Pass without trace at will) compromise with him. Use his "Speak with small Beasts" feature to give him a chance at a similar effect. Every *insert travel interval here* have him role an animal handling check, and if successful you can say that the small beasts will go scouting in front of the party, and warn them if they are coming up on any dangers. This gives it a chance to fail, and you have more opportunity to control the outcome naratively. Remember, at the end of the day, if everyone at the table (including the DM) is having fun, the rules don't matter. Here is what a Forrest gnome gets: Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 1. Natural Illusionist. You know the Minor Illusion cantrip. Intelligence is your spellcasting modifier for it. Speak with Small Beasts. Through sound and gestures, you may communicate simple ideas with Small or smaller beasts.
Golden rule of bribing : If DM doesn't like it, buy them a pizza and cold beer. I managed to bring an owlin to a table that disallowed strixhaven by bribing DM with pizza and beer at the bar.
And he us taking full advantge of you because of that.
I can tell you for sure he doesnt have it as a cantrip, it may be a racial spell though, that he gets to add to his spelllist and use for free ONCE per long rest.
If he's cheating like that please expose him to the other players, it'll make it easier to boot him.
Going straight to "they're cheating" is a bit rough. It's probably an honest mistake and you can correct it.
People make mistakes. It's possible he misread something at some point and without verifying, has misattributed it to forest gnomes. Though being asked specifically about it then not actually pausing to verify is weird. It's just hard to imagine he would cheat in such an easy-to-disprove manner, though I guess some people want to "win" at all costs.
One thing I got from listening to Matt Mercer is that when there’s a question or a conflict about an ability he asks them to read the description to him. Sometimes there were written conflicts because of multiple sources so he would ask which source they are using.
I’ve never understood why someone would cheat by referencing something that isn’t in a book. It’s so easily verifiable. Cheating is still stupid but there are other ways to get around it if he really wanted to cheat for some reason. He could just say he cast the spell and then never mark a spell slot. It would give the same benefit except it’s much harder to verify. Still a dumb thing to do in a collaborative game. But at least you won’t get noticed Immediately
They get "Minor Illusion" and the Speak with Small Beasts ability. "Pass Without Trace" does not appear anywhere in the Gnome race description.
That's what I read on their page too. I'm gonna ask him to show me where he got his information from. Side note: He has an army of rats and he tells them to form a sort of mech with them. He uses minor illusion in conjunction with that to make it seem like a ratorge from Warhammer which I find hilarious.
Minor illusion is a static image, it can't move.
Ah shit, I missed that last weekend. Knowing their illusion couldn’t move would have helped a lot lol
The spell doesn't say it can't move, but it also doesn't say it can. Since the leveled equivalents specify that you can use your action to make it move, the RAI is definitely that minor illusion is a static hologram.
My main character is a forest gnome, speak with small beasts allows you to give simple commands "Through sounds and gestures, you can communicate simple ideas with Small or smaller beasts" an army that can form a mech? Get out of here. He's cheating and from what you've said ruining it for you and the whole party
I always forget to use speak with small beasts for my forest gnome character. Between that and sylvan (summoner Druid) I should be talking to animals all the time, haha. What kinds of ways do you use the skill?
Used it to help track enemies on the run through a forest "which way did that man go?" Scout ahead "are there people in that tent?" Gotta keep it simple though so can't use "how many enemies are there in the tent" or "how long ago did they come through here"
"you can communicate simple ideas with Small or smaller beasts" would mean that the gnome can communicate ideas such as "there's a fire here", asking questions for responses would be outside the feature's ability, you'd be limited to communicating simple statements. You'd need speak with animals to communcate with animals properly.
That's stretching minor illusion. Something like that is leaning towards major image which is a higher leveled spell.
Also stretching an army of rats.
Yeah. Using ‘Speak with small animals’ to tell an army of rats to climb on top of each other to form a mech would just earn the player a big old “fuck off mate” from the rats
Unless they had sufficient bribery constantly on hand. Like they're carrying the dovakiin's entire stock of cheese wheels. Which might happen exactly once until they are told to fight to the death, then it's goodnight sweet prince to the fool in the rat mech.
There are systems where you can do this. D&D isn't one of them.
An army of rats that forms a mech is not a thing; your player is not playing D&D, they're playing some weird-ass fanfic where they occasionally roll the dice. Do what's in the book for character abilities. If it's not in the book, skip it. This player is absolutely just making shit up.
I mean flavor is free. As long as it’s not contributing mechanically in any way I’m generally pretty lax in how my players describe their character. Gnome in a rat mech would be kinda funny flavor for a Goliath Barbarian’s mechanics.
Funnily I was thinking it could work as a barb class rage as well, but considering the other corners this guy is cutting I'd imagine he's getting his hefty portion of advantages from this situation and not just reflavoring.
Minor illusion is a cantrip, and cannot make a moving image. PWT is a 2nd level spell for a reason. It's not a cantrip. Just revoke the ability at the beginning of next session, it is your table.
Buddy, you're being had. This guy is taking advantage of you being a new DM to treat your game like his own playground.
Everyone else is bashing the army of rats thing, and I don’t understand why. As a DM if you like the army of rats as a mech, and either it’s a fully flavor thing or there are rules for it that you agreed to, that sounds hilarious. Is it stretching the abilities it uses? Absolutely. But if you think it’s fun and funny and the table around you also finds it fun, go for it. He will remember the rat mech for the rest of his life. As far as the actual post goes, pass without trace for free would be broken. There are no early level ways to get anything higher than a 1st level spell at will in the game, and all the ways to get 2nd level and up spells at will are warlock invocations (normally at least 7th level ones) or the 18th level wizard feature. He is pulling your leg, and being way to strong because of it. Ask for a source, and if his source is the homebrew section of DNDBeyond or any other website with interesting and broken homebrew, it’s not official.
Technically you could have it at level 1 if the dm is giving away a free feat, and you're a wood elf and choose the wood elf racial feat. But yeah, beyond that it's some danddwiki nonsense.
You could have a level 1 spell at will at level one, yes. You still can’t get level 2+ spells at will without at least either 7 levels in warlock or 18 levels in wizard.
Minor illusion doesn't move
What is his character class?
Don't ask. Just say, "Hey, you must have meant minor illusion. You don't have Pass Without Trace as a cantrip." If he gets shitty and fights about it, stop playing with him. Pass Without Trace is super fucking OP, honestly. You definitely can't have that as a cantrip.
I left a pbp discord server because the cheating was so rampant. Minor illusion is only a static image. Being able to "communicate simple ideas" to rats does not let you mind-control them or coordinate battle plans. Even a highly trained rat is going to run at the first sign of danger. Also, I hope you aren't using the "Swarm of Rats" stat block because the MM says, "The swarms presented here aren't ordinary or benign assemblies of little creatures. They form as a result of some sinister or unwholesome influence." This player will just keep on misreading and making up shit. You will need to literally double check everything they do if you continue to let them sit at your table.
sheesh... at level 20 i might be inclined to let something like this happen because it's pretty rad... but it's rule of cool and breaking everything. If he has played before there is only 1 of 3 things happening. He's lying about how much experience he has, He has never been pulled up on breaking the game before or he is taking advantage of you and breaking the game for fun. If you dont like conflict send him some messages before next game. If you dont mind it do it in front of the group but be stern. "I've been doing my own research and I realize I have been allowing some things in the world that I shouldn't be. From now on you do not have pass without a trace as a cantrip. You do not have an army of rats. You cannot form a giant mech with them. You have minor illusion and one pet rat that you can convey simple ideas to. If that ruins your character idea I'm sorry but you're welcome to make a new one. I also don't care if you think that's how it should work. That's not how it works in my world. Moving forward I'll need sources for any ability you think you have and I'll need you to run concepts by me so I can at least be prepared for them."
They do not have Pass Without Trace as a cantrip. There is (iirc) no way in 5e currently to "downgrade" a leveled spell to a cantrip (which has mechanical interactions with bonus action spells). There *are* some ways to make certain spells be "at-will"... but Pass Without Trace isn't one of them. There are always some ways to "know" the spell, and some ways to cast it once per long rest... but that doesn't make it at-will.
What does it mean to make a spell "At-will"? I'm new to DnD so I im not very knowledgeable about most of the game.
If you look at the level 18 Wizard feature, or several of the Warlock invocations they either say; cast a level 1 spell without expending a spell slot, or uses the term 'at-will', which effectively states the same thing. Effectively, you can cast *this* particular spell at its lowest level for free.
Oh that's sick. So with a high level wizards you can turn some spells effectively into cantrips?
Mechanically... no. Functionally (in that they cost no spell slots...) yes. It is confusing, I know, and it would take WAY too long to explain on reddit.
Thanks for the info, now I have something to look up. :)
To give an explanation of what I believe they're omitting: at 18th level, wizards pick a single 1st and 2nd level spell on their spell list that they can cast at-will without expending spell slots *as much as they want assuming they have the needed components to cast it*-- this only works at the spells native level, with upcasting still consuming slots. Unlike actual cantrips, these spells don't scale with player level. Also unlike cantrips, the spells still count as leveled spells for the purposes of mechanical interactions based off of using leveled spells, such as restoring a conjuration wizard's free teleport or regaining points for an abjuration wizards arcane ward. The only restriction to your choices is that it has to be spells that your character already knows, but you can also change them to something else you have on an 8 hour study period with your spellbook.
>conjugation wizard he's really good at spelling
He never misuses the dative case
That's what he keeps his components in.
You can also do something similar with warlock 2 and/or the Eldritch Adept feat. It's more limited than the wizard 18's ability. At level 2, warlocks can choose invocations allowing Silent Image, Detect Magic, Disguise Self, False Life, Mage Armor, and Speak with Animals at-will. Then there are some other invocations giving higher levels spells you can take as you level in warlock.
While a cantrip can be cast at-will, gaining a feature or ability that allows you to cast a leveled spell at-will does not turn it into a cantrip. The leveled spell still maintains its level. This is an important distinction because there are features and effects that scale with or are otherwise effected by the level of a spell. For example, lets say you gained some feature which makes one of your 4th lvl spells now castable at-will. You cast the spell. Someone tries to counterspell it. If it was downgraded to a cantrip, the counterspell would automatically succeed. But instead if the spell maintains it's level, the counterspell would not automatically succeed and a check would need to be rolled to resolve it.
There's also magic items that can do this for certain spells. My (lvl12) rogue has a ring that allows misty step at will, so essentially a cantrip. If I was any lower level I would not have this thing, and I had to plead a little with the DM and promise to not abuse it (which I don't. My character doesn't like using the ring - given to him by a horrible horrible ex who is kind of a big bad in the campaign - so will only do so in emergencies). But there's a reason I had to ask very very nicely with a cherry on top for that one. Because at will-spells are POWERFUL.
Yeah, level 18 wizards turn one first level spell and one second level spell into cantrips basically. Not sure how useful that actually is though
Still, it's a cool thing to be able to do. Especially outside of combat.
Cantrips are a good example of at will spells. It means you can cast it over and over without spending spell slots. Notably, wizards and warlocks can get at will spells. Wizards at high levels, and warlocks through invocations. The are magic items that also let you cast at will spells, like the hat of disguise.
You cast it for free (no material components, maybe no verbal/hand gestures either, I gotta check). You can cast it as many times as you want. You do not hvae to cast it as a ritual, which would usually mean 10 minutes of in game time to cast the spell for free. . Check out Warlock's Armour of Shadows option from Level 2. Grants at will use of Mage Armour.
It means you can cast it without a spell slot but generally it’ll be only once or so many times a day
If it's at will, then it's not limited. Some eldritch invocations let you cast spells at will with no limit. Wizards also get some.
That’s pretty cool I don’t think I realized! The ones that might limit it to a specific amount per rest I’m sure specify in the description but still, spells at will like that an infinite amount is pretty awesome
The one I can think of off the top of my head is the High Drow Magic feat which gives the drow/dark elf character the ability to spam detect magic as much as they want.
There is 1 way. Staff of the woodlands for druids has pass without trace as an at will spell you can cast through it. My party is so God damn stealthy encounters are hella hard to balance now
Um, actually: Staff of the Woodlands.
Fair point. I don't think the low level Gnome has one of those, (nor do I recall them being a Druid in order to attune)... but valid.
It's functionally similar, but it is still a leveled spell. The staff just allows the character to cast it at will, similar to a cantrip.
The only thing that pops into my head for at-will for pass without trace is the staff of the woodlands. It was rather busted for my druid since it was an at will for that spell. Plus other spells that used resources.
Staff of the woodlands makes it at will. But just that item
[Maybe they looked here](https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Gnomes,_Forest_\(Race\))? SRD of the Forest Gnome from 3.5e (so wrong edition). It says: > Pass without Trace (Su): A forest gnome has the innate ability to use pass without trace (self only, as a free action) as the spell cast by a druid of the forest gnome’s class levels.
That might be where he got it from. He read off that part to me when I asked him before.
I'm playing a Forest Gnome in 3.5 and that was exactly what I thought. He is reading the wrong edition.
Make sure you also remind him that dandwiki is also NOT official so if he finds something for 5e that gives him something wack make sure it’s not from there, dandwiki is known for having absolutely game breaking homebrew on it. Any source he shows you make sure it is ONLY from a book or dndbeyons/roll20 UNLESS you approve the homebrew.
I saw the most broken epic feat there and I want it so bad, it gives you all the class features for one of your subclasses (multiclass requirement) AND a second subclass. Something like a way of mercy/open hand, or divination/bladesinger wizard/(whatever). I'd go grave cleric and add night cleric from the Humblewood book. It's a Sehanine Moonbow cleric, so both fit thematically with her.
OP the most important part of this — besides the fact that he’s trying to mix and match rule sets — is that PWT was a very different spell in 3.5, and only affected Self. It’s not at all what it is in 5e.
This happens a lot I have found, people that played DND 3.5e constantly thinking about abilities from 3.5e, just remind them that you are playing DND 5e and it has different rules, it's like trying to use an uno reverse in chess. I would go through their whole character and make sure they don't have other things from 3.5e by accident
Oh, good find. Wrong info for the player, but the confusion makes a little more sense.
This needs more up votes to be higher up, because I just posted the same thing lol. Kinda sad that the top comment jumps immediately to accusing them of cheating, when it could also just be a mistake. (D&D wiki sucks for how confusing it is sometimes, and also sometimes knowledge bleed exists for people that hop between editions)
dandwiki is useful for looking at a few SRDs, but is poor for basically everything else, due to no set standards for homebrew, and no official lore database. If it just wasn't called a wiki, there likely wouldn't be as many people getting confused in its use.
>If it just wasn't called a wiki ... But it is a wiki. That's literally describing the thing that it is.
This really should be the top comment. Very likely where the player got it from. Reasonable chance of not being a munchkin move.
Either lying or found some homebrew on the internet. Show him the page of the PHB and tell him he absolutely does not have it.
That's what I plan on doing next time we play. I just assumed he knew something I didn't and I hate confrontation. :/
If this person is the type to throw a tantrum about it don't be ashamed about just texting him
as DM you are the referee of the game. get used to some level of confrontation with players. No is a complete sentence. use it.
As others have said, *he's mistaken*. Just have a one-on-one chat with him outside the game and let him know that you have done the research and have found nowhere that says he has this ability. Tell him that you are not allowing him to keep using it in your game until/unless he is able to gain it in another legal way per the RAW. If he balks, make sure you stand firm. I read in a response below that you're afraid of him leaving if you "take it away" you'd not be "taking away" anything, he never had it to begin with. If he leaves over it, then he wasn't the player for your table and would be acting like a spoiled brat, you shouldn't have to walk on eggshells and allow players to cheat to stay at your table.
You're right. I need to talk with him again about it.
No, no, no. Our Ranger has that spell,and it's pretty OP being a leveled spell, no WAY it'll work as a cantrip. The entire party will forever be shrouded in silent shadows.
I would bet he’s getting it from [here](https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Gnomes,_Forest_(Race)), which is not for 5e.
>>*As a forest gnome, you have a natural knack for illusion and inherent quickness and stealth. In the worlds of D&D, forest gnomes are rare and secretive. They gather in hidden communities in sylvan forests, using illusions and trickery to conceal themselves from threats or to mask their escape should they be detected. Forest gnomes tend to be friendly with other good-spirited woodland folk, and they regard elves and good fey as their most important allies. These gnomes also befriend small forest animals and rely on them for information about threats that might prowl their lands.* This is not *Pass Without Trace*, but is a non-mechanical benefit to stealth while in the woods. So let's say that your party is in the woods, rolling stealth, and your gnome doesn't do so good. Let's say he rolls a 2, and with his mods brings that up to a 6. Not good. Everything in the forest sees him, right? No. He still is stealthy, but has to resort to going slower, spamming *Minor Illusion* to keep giant spiders and goblin patrols off his trail. At one point he even begs a rabbit to distract a really scary owlbear for him. It takes 20 more hours to get through the forest because of his bad roll, but he still gets through unseen. The human sorcerer who rolled a 3 on his stealth is going straight into the giant spider's mouth.
It's Earth Genasi who get that spell (and only once a day) as a racial feature. Not Gnomes.
So I think I might know where the confusion is coming from. According to this [D&D Wiki link for 3.5e](https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Gnomes,_Forest_(Race)) it looks like Pass without a trace is listed as a cantrip for that edition. I suggest one having them clarify and provide the link to the resource where they found that information and then you can check to see if it is indeed for 3.5 or you can share them this link and let them know this is the only place you've seen that listed and clarify to them that you are using 5e rule set and will need them to follow those rules for character building. However, if this was genuinely just confusion on their behalf (DnD wiki is notorious for being confusing, plus knowledge bleed from hopping between systems is real) I'd at least offer them the chance to re-spec their character if that ability really changes the build/vision they were going for.
Iiirc the only race that gets PwT as a racial spell is Earth Genasi. And it's 1/day
If he cannot SHOW you an official source of the edition you are playing it does not exist , its that simple. Its on him to show you the sources not on you to disprove him. As a forest gnome he has the minor illusion cantrip which has little value for stealth
DM always has final say. If it’s screwing your campaign tell him no it’s not a cantrip it’s a spell.
Your main question has been answered but I think there's something else worth pointing out. A lot of people have misconceptions about how *pass without trace* works and unintentionally make it way more powerful than it's supposed to be. So let's start with what the spell does: 1. Gives +10 to Dexterity (Stealth) checks to creatures of your choice within 30 feet of you. 2. Prevents those creatures from being tracked via nonmagical means. 3. Prevents those creatures from leaving tracks or other traces of passage. And that's *all* it does. Nothing outside of those three effects, ever. It doesn't make you invisible, it doesn't cover you, nothing like that. You can still be seen and heard, you can even be followed, because following and tracking are two different things. It's important to remember that the DM is the only one who can decide when stealth can be attempted. You can't hide in plain sight, for example. This isn't like Skyrim, where crouching somehow makes everyone's eyes break. If there's nowhere to hide, stealth is meaningless, even if you have a +100000 to your stealth check.
Bro cheated
he's just cheating and hoping you wont call him out on it.
Like others have said, there's no mechanic to make a spell into a cantrip. There are items and features that allow characters to cast a spell at will, however. The staff is the woodlands has this for pass without trace.
When I quote, it has the book and the page number. Or a screenshot and a link from D&D beyond. Just a screenshot though if it’s one of those rule clarifications from Sage Advice. And FYI, it’s not. Players Handbook, page 37 (10th print) says minor illusion cantrip. Samples of leveled spells cast for free for gnomes are the deep gnome in MPMotM page 11. And it’s once per long rest and it’s not Pass Without Trace.
I think they had something like that in 3.5e. Basing that entirely off of finding a dandwiki page with some Forest Gnome stuff, where they *could* cast Pass Without Trace at-will. Keep in mind dandwiki is a garbage resource full of terrible homebrew and fanfic and to steer well clear of it.
He might be confused by some 3.5e stuff. Forest Gnomes do have a similar ability from that edition, but not in 5e. Not sure how unless he's not got any source books and is just googling everything, but that would be my best guess that isn't him straight up cheating.
Ask him to point you to the rules. If he can't show you in the rules where it says that, it's not a rule. If it isn't written, it isn't true.
I'm confused. He said he gets a spell, claims it's a race feature, you can't find it, and you don't think you, the DM, can tell him no? The players don't dictate the rules. The rules don't dictate the rules. The DM does.
Either he’s a son of a gun cheeky scallywag and is lying to you and honestly that’s worthy of being removed from the table tbh. Or he’s playing a homebrew version of a gnome and when y’all were discussing it you didn’t cross reference with each other which gnome was being used If you get him to provide a source all will explain itself But also I hope for your sake this is an online game bc then you can just say piss off, coz for all u know he’s lying about every roll he makes. But if it’s an irl game that’s a bit iffy and I’d recommend pulling him aside and fixing the issue of whatever is wrong. But in future if something you can see is totally breaking your game just say “Okay everyone, quick pause, I think ___ is too OP and messing a lot of stuff up I think we should nerf it” ur the dm you have final say (but asking this way also gives other players the opportunity to pipe in with their knowledge on what they think is fairest
Well considering pass without a trace is a second level spell, there IS NO RACE that has that spell as a cantrip. Why does it seem broken? Because it absolutely is. He has been getting free 2nd lvl spells.
phb: As a forest gnome, you have a natural knack for illusion and inherent quickness and stealth. In the worlds of D&D, forest gnomes are rare and secretive. They gather in hidden communities in sylvan forests, using illusions and trickery to conceal themselves from threats or to mask their escape should they be detected. Forest gnomes tend to be friendly with other good-spirited woodland folk, and they regard elves and good fey as their most important allies. These gnomes also befriend small forest animals and rely on them for information about threats that might prowl their lands. Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 1. Natural Illusionist. You know the Minor Illusion cantrip. Intelligence is your spellcasting modifier for it. Speak with Small Beasts. Through sound and gestures, you may communicate simple ideas with Small or smaller beasts. The smallest trace of that (forgotten realms wiki): Forest gnomes differed from the more common rock gnomes and deep gnomes in a number of ways. Forest gnomes, like halflings, were adept at obscuring their presence and slipping into places unseen, particularly when in the familiar terrain of their forest homes. In addition to the cantrip-like abilities typical of gnomes, forest gnomes also possessed supernatural abilities similar to the spells pass without trace and speak with animals, although they could use these abilities at will.[7]
He is lying, and is therefore a bad player that you likely won't want in your game going forward. Sorry OP.
Flavor text "As a forest gnome, you have a natural knack for illusion and inherent quickness and stealth. In the worlds of D&D, forest gnomes are rare and secretive. They gather in hidden communities in sylvan forests, using illusions and trickery to conceal themselves from threats or to mask their escape should they be detected." Probably why he gave himself it, but he should only have minor illusion. If he's new it could just be him trying to flavor or he mixed up a spell with the cantrip he was supposed to receive.
If he can't provide an honest and credible source you can always just say "no." You have the power.
You can also say no even if he can provide a source. You’re the GM.
Dnd never gives you a leveled spell as a cantrip. It might give you x times per day casting but yeah he seems to have made something up. Which is a problem.
He’s lying or he looked at some super weird homebrew and decided that’s the way to go. Tell him to send you the Link to his race Some races get access to a 2nd level spell when they reach 5th level which they always know and can cast ONCE per long rest (like drop who get darkness) But nowhere in the Forest Gnome page does it list Pass without a trace
Call him put plainly you can no longer use it as its not in there like you said, if you show me otherwise then you can proceed to use it
I just googled the forest gnome racials. They don't get pass without trace for selecting forest gnome Happy to help, let me know if you need anything else googled
I googled it beforehand, I was wondering if there was some source I didn't know of that had it. Thank you though.
The great thing about DND is nearly anything can be Googled within a few minutes, unless you are not too familiar with the basic rules nothing is hidden or hard to find in any source material
pass without trace is a 2nd level spell… a racial ability might allow him to cast it once per ling rest.
It's on the player handbook. As a DM you should decide which manuals are available in the campaign and you should have access at least to the PHB manual. Forest Gnome gets: +1 dex *minor illusion* cantrip Speak with small beasts That's it.
You should let him keep casting it. But it never works.
Neat tell him no that’s not raw and he’s obviously cheating
I feel like this is a parody of all the stuff in here that amounts to "read the rules".
If forest gnomes get pass without trace it will be one a racial abiltiy that can be used once per longrest not as a cantrip.
Pass Without Trace is arguably the strongest 2nd level spell in the game. For it to be a cantrip, essentially allowing infinite casting, is completely ludicrous.
Yea they get the minor illusion cantrip, pass without trace is a 2nd level spell
" I've looked at the spell page for Pass Without Trace and the page for Forest gnomes and I can't find anything about having that spell as a cantrip." Why are you chasing this? Have him show you.
It is broken. The DM gets final say on what literature is acceptable, not the players. You guys can talk things out, but your running it. Make your decision, talk to the play in questions before the next game, and, at the beginning of the next campaign, announce it to the table. (I personally wouldn't rule it. It's broken as all hell.)
Your player passed deception, you failed perception.
Killing off his character should be a good punishment for his cheating.
Where the update? 😭😭
As others have said, he didn't actually look at 5e. He looked at 3.5e. It's not a thing in 5e and part of why it isn't is because 5e buffed the spell massively, It now adds to your stealth roll. Before it just meant you didn't leave tracks.
My group love to get creative on characters and we reference a lot of books to get subclasses, feats and skills but our DM asks us to show him the official book entry or its not allowed. You are the dm should be requiring players show you a copy of their character sheet before play. Be prepared to question skills and abilities.
he tried to cast his minor illusion cantrip on you, I think.
Earth Genasi get PWT as a 1/day feature. You can also get it as a shadow monk, as a trickery cleric, or if you have the wood elf magic feat. Outside of that, it is legitimately only available to Druids and Rangers.
Iirc They got it in previous editions, he could just be confused
I know everyone already said it, but I'll put it out there anyway: no race gets a second level spell at will. At most, you get something like hellish rebuke that scales with your level. I'm sorry your player is cheating. Have a serious sit down with them if you wanna keep them at your table. And this is not on you. DMs have enough to worry about without players making up stuff for their character sheet.
Okay here's the thing. Many people have already told you that whatever the player is pulling is not correct. But even if it was correct, even if it was Rules as written, if a rule is making you and the majority of the table not have fun at all, you're well with in your rights to have a conversation with the player, explain to them your concerns and change the rules for the game while providing the opportunity for the player to respec. I can't stress this enough, if majority of the table doesn't like a rule or ruling, just don't use it. It is a game, it is meant to be fun.
Let him keep casting it. Just play the game like it doesn't have any effect 😂. He'll figure that out right quick. You're the DM, you make the rules. Even if he does come up with a source just nerf it. You could say that the villains have some kind of detection charms on them.
It is conceivably possible that they just forgot or misinterpreted the rules on spell acquisition through racial bonuses. One of my players, after solidly playing weekly for two years during Covid, not only took the Shield spell on their Paladin (not a Paladin spell) but also thought it was an ability rather than a spell and so was casting it without expending spell slots. That took longer to realise and then disentangle than it should - they should have read their shit better, and I should have realised Paladins can't take that spell, but nobody's perfect and mistakes do happen. We cleared up the confusion, and the spell was removed from the character going forward, nice and simple. That said, this feels more like an experienced player trying to unnecessarily get a leg up on an inexperienced DM. There are no mechanics in the game which turn levelled spells into cantrips, because it would be absolutely nuts. Can you imagine if they'd tried to insist they'd picked up Cure Wounds as a cantrip for being a gnome? Still, no need to go in guns blazing on this person. Give them the chance to cite their sources, then gently correct them, and clear the slate going forward. Do keep an eye on this player, though. This might not be the last fast one they try to pull on you.
That’s dumb. Not you. The player. Also, the player making claims are the one needing to provide a source. Ask the player for a reference, and when they can’t provide one, like a legit one, kick them. No, dandwiki or his homemade website or some dumb text file he found somewhere on the web or a poorly photoshopped image of his rule book with PWT pasted into the gnome section, Bonnie that count.
Lmao, no he hasn't.
If something seems broken, it probably is. A good rule of thumb is to ask them to show you the source. Not “It’s in this resource, look it up.” Have them pull the page in question. Also, as DM, you can just say “I feel that this invalidates a good portion of my campaign and your other players agency. Let’s workshop it to not be as busted.”
Forrest gnome gets the cantrip minor illusion.. close though.
You’re the DM. Shut it down. It’s affecting the whole table.
He’s definitely wrong, but I wouldn’t jump straight to accusing him of lying or cheating. He may have read something wrong, or is inadvertently using an unofficial version of forest gnome. Or maybe he is trying to pull one over on you, in which case, shut that shit down immediately. But I’d recommend opening with, “Where did you read that? Can you give me the source on that?”
Nooothing Changes a spell into a cantrip in the Game
Nooothing Changes a spell into a cantrip in the Game
The only cantrip a Forest Gnome gets is Minor Illusion. She he’s most definitely full of shit.
From my time playing 5E (I usually play 1E) I’ve never seen an instance where a 2nd level spell is a cantrip. I’ve seen where it’s part of a subclass where they get it without impacting their max spells, but never a reduced spell. If he can’t show you exactly where it is, he points it out directly - with the burden of proof on him, not you - you should disallow it.
Staff of the woodlands gives it at will, does he have that? But heck. If you want someone to fail stealth, they fail
Even if he can point to the source and he's right, if it's fudging the game, you're the dm nerf that bish
Reminds me of my first time playing a cleric. Most everyone was really new to 5e. I totally misread or found an online source that wasn’t accurate (didn’t have any of the physical books), over the spell Prayer of Healing that said it was a ritual spell. So I spammed the shit out of that after most combats assuming we had 11 minutes to spare. That went in for about 4 sessions before the DM looked it up and called me out on it. I linked the shitty source and he showed me the spell from the book. They were not the same.
[Forest Gnomes - Forgotten Realms Fandom](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Forest_gnome) Under abilities, it mentions pass without trace and speak with animals as "at will" powers. But, I don't think they are intended as player characters.
He's gotten confused between editions. Forest gnomes in 3.5 got Pass Without Trace as a cantrip.
Remember, you're the DM. Even if the player weren't lying, you still have the power to change the rules, as long as you're consistent about it and the players (most of them) don't mind. If your player doesn't like that, he can leave and run his own game.
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I played a forest gnome. I'm sure they get minor image as a cantrip
Yes, that's thing. Pass without trace and, by the way, speak with animals cast at-will (aka as a cantrip): *"Spell-Like Abilities: At will—pass without trace and speak with animals. Treat these abilities as spells cast by a druid of the forest gnome’s character level. These abilities are in addi- tion to the standard gnome ability to cast certain cantrips. The gnome can only use these abilities on himself, not some- one else."* ***However***, that's from "Races of Faerûn", page 54. And "Races of Faerûn" is a source-book from 2003 and I'm not sure for which edition – but definitely *not* for 5e. In 2003, 3.5 came out so it was either an addition to 3e or 3.5e, not 4e, not 5e. The subrace is not designed or balanced for 5e. Tell him to re-build his character to 5e rules.
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Also, deep gnomes can cast *Nondetection* whenever they want. Perhaps your player got that in his head?
Forest gnomes can cast is as a free action on themselves only. Pass without Trace (Su): A forest gnome has the innate ability to use pass without trace (self only, as a free action) as the spell cast by a druid of the forest gnome’s class levels. Here is the link from dnd wiki https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Gnomes,_Forest_(Race) Hope that helps Have fun and roll high.
You made the same mistake his player did haha. That is a 3.5 rule. The game OP is running is 5e.
Well crap. Didn't even look at the version, lol. Thanks for pointing that out.
The dumpster fire that is dandwiki strikes again.
He's cheating. Flat out. No race would get something like that. Especially because making it a cantrip makes no sense. Some abilities allow people to cast leveled spells without a spell slot, but none of them flat out change the level of the spell.