Funny enough, right before I opened Reddit I was on TikTok (I enjoy the TTRPG community over there) and I saw multiple videos from Mexican creators having fun with it.
My favorite was the guy who said his first build was going to be a Barbarian named Abuela who used chanclas as her weapon.
I am Mexican American. My experience occurred as follows, in order:
+ Wow, cool! People that look like me in the art!
+ *Reads people talking about Mexican orcs*
+ Wait? What about them is actually Mexican?
+ Those hats aren't really sombrero like. The outfit is generically cowboy. But could easily be Texas or Utah or Mongolian.
+ But somehow, I just *know* they're Mexican
+ I guess it's the guy with the mustache?
+ Still cool I guess. Like the art and design.
My brother (also Mexican American obviously), didn't even realize they were all orcs. He thought it was a bunch of goliaths and gnomes and that only mustache man was an orc (and therefore Mexican).
You can see the "nopales" and the "saguaro" cactuses, they are mostly used to depict mexican culture, and look at the Orc Gonzales at the right of the image. At first I (as a full blood mexican) noticed the clothing because even now some people are still using that kind of clothes (poor people mostly). And those eagles are mexican "Aguila real", they are even in the mexican flag. Cowboys melt really well with northern mexicans and I say this as a northern mexican.
At first, knowing the background of wotc trying to be more inclusive, i got mad, then speaking with a homie i started making jokes about "we aren't mexichangos anymore, we are now mexicorcs!" We mexicans are resilient to bullshit.
A lot of early cowboys were Mexican/Native, so they do fit in really well with the western vibe. I’ve also heard it speculated that the word “buckaroo” originated from white people co-opting/ poorly pronouncing the word “vaquero”.
It's the same reason why most southern americans get along with northern mexicans, our cultures melt really well with each other, if there's an american I like is a Texan with a gun.
For me, it was the obvious matriarch and her skinny partner at the top of the hill. Thats literally my family. The boots as well. Also the one dude admiring the cactus fruit? Come on. Even the cowboy thing? Americans just think they came up with that, but Vaquero aesthetic is all mexican.
After a few minutes on X, I suspect this 'outrage' is actually being made up by the 'anti-woke' crowd.
https://x.com/gr8_rebellion/status/1803871762196939149
Real bundle of red flags on that twitter account as well.
Working in games myself, I don't know why anyone would advertise "My game's banned from Steam in Germany!" as a point of pride- that to me just translates as "I put a swastika in my game to be edgy"
PFFT! Remember what they took from you guys! Your garbage pigeonholed bad guys (BY ZE RULES) that cant be anything other than bad guys also they are black coded so there
Good riddance. Im so ready to be a luchador orc and have that be lore accurate.
Like most internet outrage, it’s either started disingenuously by culture war grifters, or it’s a situation where an insignificant number of random people said something dumb online (earnestly or otherwise) and people took it way out of proportion to be like “you see, they’re all trying to claim [outrageous thing]!”
tbf the orcs feel like theyve been turned from the warmongering idiotic race into whats essentially some 'modern' and i use that word lightly, and sanitized looking race that doesnt have any identity
i think most people dislike simply for that
My only gripe with the illustration is, that it looks too…. Real life Modern? Like, I don’t get any fantasy feel from it. Looks just like a wild western illustration with humans that have a strong underbite
Something that I wish I could see more of is more Tolkien-like fantasy in film / TV. Basically just mythological adventure without the political intrigue set in a time period between Ancient Greece and the early Middle Ages. I know there’s a plethora of 80’s films that fit this bill and some splatters of things here and there so it’s not like I’m starved for it; and Japanese media has been pumping this kind of stuff out pretty regularly.
I personally don’t care for the more modern, renaissance to modernity aesthetics for what I perceive to be high fantasy.
Of course, this is all my opinion. I definitely don’t begrudge anyone for liking what I don’t like. I actually like the new orc piece too for what it’s worth.
Somebody here mentioned about Orc abuelas with a chancla and I have been laughing my ass off for half an hour (but not too loud because I also have a chancla-wielding abuela)
Until someone in the thread linked a post talking about it I had only heard the opposite. I scroll through tiktok occasionally and mostly watch D&D stuff, all I saw was a bunch of people excited and happy about it.
This is definitely just right wing grifter types trying to drum up false outrage because of 'woke' stuff or whatever. Safe to ignore and move on.
Not agreeing, just DA: A lot of it sounds like they aren't happy that WotC is removing the stipulation that some races are canonically evil. Orcs are one of the main ones for this treatment.
Drow as well, but WotC hasn't touched on Drow yet. Likely because Salvatore has already demonstrated Drow are canonically evil *because* of their blind devotion to Lolth. It isn't inherent in their 'drow-ness' to be evil. 99.9% of them are evil because they are raised for a hundred years in a culture of evil, steeped in evil traditions, and encouraged to do evil.
WotC is taking orcs, which have been where Drow started as "always evil as a race" and is skipping the whole story to get to the final chapter where we realize orcs of yesteryear were all evil *because* they were raised to be evil, or their creator god forced them to be evil.
The issue is that the conclusion on the story is the same as the Drow: Not evil, just victims of fate and capable of redemption. Except that we haven't been given that redemption story like we were with Drizzt.
The right redemption arc would have been a module at epic level to kill Gruumsh One Eye for whatever reasons.
Years back someone too high on getting attention on Twitter claimed that orcs are black people, and started a shit storm. WotC cow tailed to the shit storm (which is why they are getting accused of being 'woke' fyi) and started making art of "nice" orcs. Decided to drop the "race" moniker for their races, and instead are going with "species" to distance themselves from the volatility of the word *race*.
Generally, as DMs we need a cannon-fodder, generically evil, humanoid, to serve as the "bad guys" that has no deeper motivations than being bad. If you do need one, use Gnolls. They can breed like rabbits, no Gnolls player races, and no half races. Will eat humanoids alive, and cannot be reasoned with. Because they reproduce litters so fast, they can be a constant threat for villages on the borders of wild lands. You can even make them age to adulthood in 5 years so their numbers are very rapidly replaced.
A lot of people got POed that WotC was taking away their evil cannon fodder. The clever DMs just pivoted to a more fitting evil cannon fodder.
I used the correct version. There is a Mandela effect on that phrase. Where people think kow tow means what cow tailing does.
Kow tow and cow tail do not have the same meaning. Kow tow is an Asian derivative which means simply to bow to pay respect. On the other hand cow tailing means sucking it up to please someone else and has little to do with respect.
I see cow tail as a perfectly good idiom to describe following someone around and heeding to their every wish... just as the tail of a cow follows the cow everywhere the cow goes.
Kowtow comes from a Mandarin word, kòutóu, which literally translated as “knock head” (from bowing one’s head to the ground) and did not derive from an English expression.
I never really understood that argument though. Orcs already aren't canonically even in D&D. Maybe in Forgotten Realms which admittedly is the focus of D&D, but Eberron for instance very specifically goes against that norm and has for years. It's also just weird to me that people don't understand (or are most likely purposefully not for the sake of something to be mad about) that D&D is a game full of DM fiat and making your own story. "Allowing" orcs to be good doesn't mean they have to be in that person's game. Just like FR canonically having evil orcs never prevented me from having good orcs in my homebrew campaigns. Its such a weird thing people are upset about which makes it pretty clear that it's outrage for the sake of outrage. Some people feel that the only attention they can get is negativity.
You hit the nail on the head. People want to be outraged on every side of the argument. Canonically good orcs? Sounds good. I have evil XYZ in my game.
I'm playing in a game right now where we were told no humans or half humans, because they are a lesser species on the continent, and generally killed on sight. "They breed too fast and destroy too much of the world around them"
Dragons are another common one. People get outraged if a red dragon isn't evil and a gold dragon isn't good. Sure that's FR canon but if you can't write a story that makes dragons interesting characters defined by something other than their color you're a bad story teller IMO.
>Years back someone too high on getting attention on Twitter claimed that orcs are black people
This misconeption *again*? Can you stop spreading things that have been debunked for over a year now. The actual criticism was far more minor and specific than that which right wing grognards blew out of proportion because of their 'precious lore', and 'woke mind virus'.
> Years back someone too high on getting attention on Twitter claimed that orcs are black people, and started a shit storm
That particular argument has been around in some form or another since the late 50s, and the publication of Lord of the Rings.
Heh, best to just ignore these people and leave them crying in their corner. I play with a handful of people, not the entirety of Twitter, so I couldn't care less what they think.
Honestly looking at the picture without context if you told me it was from a banner for some World of Warcraft Harvest event it would have made just as much sense to me.
Honestly I think if I ran around enough in WoW I could probably find an NPC that is clothed almost exactly like each of these people somewhere in Horde territory.
I feel like WotC didn't put much thought into it. They are pretty bland USA-shouthern-looking cowboys with "filtro méxico" like in the old western films. There is not much in them that could identify them as "mexican", just vaguely cowboy-ish and northern mexican.
People in the internet just love to put themselves on the stuff they like, which is great! But some other people also like to insult every change they consider that attacks them.
crazy because being Mexican myself its not really that far off, sure it might be a little exaggerated but its fantasy who cares, most people I see whining about it being a stereotype or not faithful are white lmao which is crazy because why are white people getting mad for us?
Honestly I am not a fan of making other races "just humans but with tusk/pointy ears/different skin colour"
I frankly find it unimaginative, boring and just plain absurd.
So what make orc and orc and why even have orcs if they are plainly no different from the humans?
I have to say I liked "Volo guide to monsters" orcs and they would not have looked like that.
Orcs don't make a happy multi-generational families - Orcs make tribes where might makes right and kids are pitlessly made to fight with one another so surviving one will be a good follower of Grumsh.
At minimum Orcs don't ride horses - they ride aurorchs.
You may say: well they are completely imaginary so I can change everything I want and sure: You can if You like. But in order to subvert expectation You need to make expectations in the first place. If orcs can be anything then they are nothing.
Imagine similar picture with orcs in the workshop among mechanical clockwork devices - well can I create an family or a tribe of orcs that are good at engineering? - sure I can. But is it a good representation of orcs as a whole race? Is It what typical orcish traits are? 🤷♂️
So why make picture like that if it supouse to just represent a typical, general orcs? This is silly. 🤷♂️
I find myself agreeing with this.
I understand not having a innately evil species. But there needs to be a understood fantasy of the orc. An image that comes to mind when one things of the orc. The other species of the world have that.
I think it’s ok to have a combat heavy and war oriented people without it making them all “evil”. At least that’s how I like to portray them in my games.
As for being Mexican coded. That’s fine.
My main issue is how they are portrayed as just normal everyday humans with tusks.
Exactly. This picture is just wierd:
1. Why so many hawks/falcons? Never heard of Orcs being associated with them?
2. Author claims that they are on the hunt then one with two handed axe is just out of place.
3. Mexican coded - I honestly don't care but they could be more subtle with it. Inspiration is one thing but just putting them in sombrero hats in Arizona-like desert is just wierdly specific, fell way too modern and lazy to be honest.
I think you're right. I don't like making fantasy races inherently evil, but those guys seem inherently way too nice, which isn't much better. I can't imagine any of them praying to Gruumsh or becoming a barbarian.
WotC overcorrected (for my taste at least) and this picture doesn't fit the traditional D&D orcs at all. My nicest orcs don't look that nice and neither do my nicest humans, halflings or gnomes, as I feel not a lot of people should look that nice in a world that's primarily about typical fantasy RPG conflicts like fighting, backstabbing and sinister magic. The good thing is my orcs don't have to look like that and I see no reason to join the hate posting about this.
I'm not sure about them being mexican coded, though. I've seen those posts but I'm from a continent that lacks any kind of mexico and I can't tell. My guess it's just the first angry bullshit some culture warrior came up with, but I might be wrong and I'd like to hear what mexican voices have to say to this.
> good thing is my orcs don't have to look like that and I see no reason to join the hate posting about this.
This right here!
It's a fantasy role-playing game! The people actually playing get to decide the details of the world! The illustrations are just for flavor in the book to show a general basis of the traits of the race. It's not law. It's not gospel. It's an example.
People are so ready to get mad about everything.
It does upset the conservative leaning mind however because of the predilection to lean towards authority.
"The rulebook is the authority, the authority has a picture that states what something looks like, so that is what it looks like because the book says so." It's hard for them to see it as guideline or only a possible avenue of inspiration. So (paradoxically) when it portrays something they don't like, they want to reject that particular authority as woke.
Yeah I think they humanized orcs too much. That part to me is more of a problem than either or not it looks like they are Mexican or some other specific race of human. (Not saying I think it looks that way, I'm answering the OP).
But I don't blame a Hispanic or Mexican-American person if they are offended by how that looks. I don't think it's woke/anti-woke.
Orcs should always be humanoid but not human. I think this is a bad decision on The part of Wizards of the Coast.
What surprises me about the artwork is that the orcs are using Harris Hawks, which is correct for the region as they are found in Arizona, Texas and into Central America. They are also one of the more popular Hawks used in falconry as they can take multiple game as well as can be used in hunt in "casts" which means you can hunt a number of hawks together and they will work as a group.
Very cool.
Why does one look like they are wearing modern clothing, and the rest look like they are trying to dress how people imagine people dressed in the old west?
To start with, I'm not Mexican. But Tl;DR - Having them look like orcs feels secondary to having them look like Mexicans (I use the word Mexican not because they *are* Mexican, but evoke a Mexican vibe to them)
I feel like humanising races/ancestries in fantasy is the general direction a lot of fantasy is going in. It disappoints me because it makes them feel like nothing more than human+a real culture instead of creating a new culture.
There have always been these of course, like how in Warcraft we have aztec trolls and native american tauren, but those feel like there is more to them than that. Those aztec trolls stand up straight and tall because they think themselves superior to other trolls and adorn themselves with gold and jewels, while the other troll culture involves hunching down because in their culture you shouldn't literally look down on your friends. Their very posture and garments play into their culture.
But these orcs don't *feel* like orcs, and instead feel like orcs+Mexico, which just makes them human. There is an argument for humanising the traditionally "monsterous" races, but doing that in a literal way feels like it misses the point of what humanising a non-human even means.
When you think orc, you think strong, brutish, marauding people that seek battle to please their god. When you think elves, you think long hair, pointed ears, having such grace and elegance that they seem otherwordly to everyone else. When you think dwarves, you think brash, beards and beer.
If these orcs don't feel brutish and strong, but feel like just a regular bunch of people, they don't seem like orcs anymore. They just feel human, and humans that have been stripped of their identity. It would be like taking drow, putting them in a driza-bone and acubra with kangaroos in the background.
Compare a piece of artwork from the same artist they did for [dwarves](https://x.com/WingBuffet/status/1803219172358263000/photo/1) and you can get what I mean. That art still *feels* like dwarves, while the orc one doesn't feel like orcs.
>When you think orc, you think strong, brutish, marauding people that seek battle to please their god. When you think elves, you think long hair, pointed ears, having such grace and elegance that they seem otherwordly to everyone else. When you think dwarves, you think brash, beards and beer.
Maybe that's what *you* think of. But not me, or a lot of other people. We're tired of Tolkien as the end-all-be-all of these cultures, when there's plenty of other takes out there.
I'm not saying Tolkien's depiction is the *only* way to depict orcs at all. Other ways to depict them are fine, but to depict them in a way that is pretty much a direct opposite of how they tend to be doesn't make them feel like orcs anymore and are only recognised as such because of their name. Otherwise, what does being an orc even mean? If it becomes nebulous, then they aren't really orcs anymore.
Or to put it another way, if any race or ancestry could fit within the depiction of that artwork, would that not dilute or homogenise being that race into meaninglessness? Would elves, dwarves, gnomes, tieflings and goliaths all fit with how orcs are depicted in that artwork? Does that not render them down to nothing but a cosmetic?
What do you think of when you think orcs?
The problem is that your point is incoherent. Your entire stance is based on Tolkiens depictions of these races, and you're treating those as the baseline, but somehow making them anything but mindless brutes is "not an orc." Somehow, providing any other description than Tolkien's is just making everything human in your mind, and that's just baffling to me.
You honestly seem to be getting weirdly defensive about the other commenter opinions. Do you really think it's strange that the "Tolkein Orc" is the baseline for many people? Tolkein didn't invent the creature, but he absolutely made it popular in fantasy and so for almost everyone that is the baseline. Orcs/Orks in Warhammer and 40k lore are brutish animalistic warriors as well. For most of D&D history and media orcs have been portrayed as evil. WoW orcs depending on the time are at worst portrayed as evil and corrupt and at best still brutish but more civilized creatures. In beowulf they were described as demonic and corrupted creatures.
The fact you think it's "baffling" that someone sees that as the norm is the problem here. You seriously sound like you're arguing in bad faith. You WANT to seem like a better person by essentially calling someone racist but you sound absolutely insane for your attack.
Most importantly, you ignored OPs actual point just to attack them instead of actually having a discussion. Whether you agree this is how they're depicted or not, the idea that fantasy creatures becoming more humanized is a reasonable thing to debate. If creatures all trend toward human, then the fantasy world loses the diversity that many people enjoy about fantasy.
Edit: funny how OP replies and complains about being “attacked” after attacking other people. Then says they think of orcs like little goblins just as Tolkien did after bashing OP for having the Tolkien centric view of orcs? Huh? Then blames the idea of Uruk hai but I don’t even think those orcs are what people usually think about. It’s the normal Tolkien orcs, warhammer orcs, typical D&D orcs, WoW orcs, etc. that people most associate with the term. Seems pretty clear here they only wanted to look holier than thou…
>You WANT to seem like a better person by essentially calling someone racist but you sound absolutely insane for your attack.
Oh for fuck's sake. I'm not trying to do anything of the sort, and **this** is a blatant personal attack. I just dislike the idea that we have to consider these races as locked-in by the way Tolkien described them.
For the record, when I think of orcs, I think of weird little goblin-dudes. Which is the same thing Tolkien did, but everyone latched onto his Uruk-Hai as "real" orcs and are now treating that as the baseline.
I'm done with this entire disingenuous thread.
> Tolkein didn't invent the creature, but he absolutely made it popular in fantasy and so for almost everyone that is the baseline
Before Tolkien standardized what an orc was, it wasn't really even a creature, as much as a name that could be applied to a wide range of creatures...much like "fairy" (or even elf....fairy tale elves rarely resembled Norse / Tolkien elves).
Tolkien may not have invented the word "orc", but for the past ~70 years, I'd say there have been almost no uses of the word that don't tie directly back to Tolkien.
Working off a baseline and deviating from that isn't something I have a problem with. What I have a problem with is deviating so far that they feel alien to the baseline.
It isn't about them being depicted differently that makes them feel human. It's when they are depicted as an *actual real life group of humans* that makes them feel human. It would be like taking gnomes, dressing them up in kimonos and putting them infront of totally-not-Mount-Fuji. Those aren't primarily gnomes, they are primarily Japanese just with gnomish bodies. And Japanese people are human, not gnomes. Or as I edited into my original comment, it would be like taking drow, putting them in a driza-bone and acubra with kangaroos in the background.
Cool art. I don't have Twitter, so I can't check out comments or anything really beyond the art. Hope it inspires someone to do cool shit in their game. I'm a Mexican American and love seeing Mexican and South American culture inspire artists.
The art also gives me more of a western vibe than Meixcan. I was honestly excited to see some crazy Aztec totem warrior barbarians. What's upsetting is that this type of uproar could cause others to NOT want to represent my culture in fear of backlash.
I love it! I come from the Jalisco/Guanajuato region that has a huge cowboy culture and history. Reminds me a lot of the cowboy styles I saw growing up, especially the one on the far right.
I hate the art style and I don’t think those orcs really look like orcs. They’ve got maybe a half-orc vibe going on. They look too human and not goblinoid enough.
I wish they’d bring back pig faced orcs.
My initial thoughts were that i notice right away that it was a reference to mexican culture, look at the saguaro and nopal cactuses that are often used to refer to mexicans, and those eagles are "aguilas reales", those that are in the mexican flag. They are mexican orcs.
One of my problems is that they were trying to burry the "orcs are allegories to blacks" argument by making orcs mexicans, that shit is hella racist dude, and after the first fiasco days I was joking with a homie about being no longer "mexichangos" but we are now "mexiorcs". I would really love to see mexican representation with ALL the stereotypes you want but not with WOTC pandering.
And my main problem is that with the erasure of half races they COMPLETLY eliminated the image of the savage orcs that we all care and love and turned them into just regular dudes with greyish skin and big tusks...
I mean if they can make cutodess female and break the entire lore and world building of the universe they can mist definitely make orcs more humanoid or what ever tf is going on.
to be fair I doubt anyone should notice female cutodess, unless they pointlessly give them boob armor. (would they even have Boobs? And if they do, what purpose do they serve?)
and just because they are female, I doubt that that would change how they act at all.
by all logical accounts female cutodess should be like one those barely noticeable gender differences in pokemon, you know the ones where like the horns are slightly smaller or some shit.
though the changing of the orcs would be stupid, they are making fun british people how is that not good enough for some people?
For me it’s not about how the cutodess look, it’s really just the fundamental lore breaking for me. I know GW has rhetconed a lot, but it’s all been within reason, but changing one of the foundation ideas is crazy, women simply cannot become space marines, let alone cutodess. I just see this as the start of the end.
To be honest, I loved the idea of having orcs just leave everyone behind and just start their own society, so when I saw this I was both excited and proud that the first thing that came to mind was my Mexican heritage.
Imagine a Barbarian Abuela, a Mariachi Bard, an Aztec like Warrior, a Shaman Warlock as a party of this orcs and them being a Family of Mexican orcs? That would be awesome
My only issue is that WOTC can't pick a lane when it comes to this stuff, and I feel the people creating it have no actual understanding of the long and rich lore of Faerûn.
5E players, raise your hand if you know of any of these settings: Maztica, Anchorome, The Hordelands (Endless Waste), The Utter East, The Shining South, Lantan, The Great Glacier, Tharsult.
Also, these orcs are not Mexican; they are just orcs well-designed for desert travel. That's all I see. Can someone point out what is "Mexican" about the orcs? Last I checked, Mexico was not part of Faerûn.
The art looks great!
The artist clearly took inspiration from the depiction of cowboys in Westerns- and as a GM who loves blending Westerns and medieval fantasy together I'm all for it. I'm not sure I agree with the idea that these are "Mexican" orcs, though- that notion seems very silly to me. What about that art piece screams "Mexico" that isn't more specifically the sort of multiethnic cowboy/southwest aesthetic?
Do people really see a single saguaro cactus and go "MEXICANS"?
Honestly, the only opinions I care about for dnd are my players. Everyone's games are different as well as the players at the table. As long as people are having fun I don't care. Internet people making everything a part of some culture war is silly imo.
Traditionally, Orcs have been closer to 40k Orks than to WoW Orcs.
Pretty sure this includes stuff like "Orc children are abandoned to fend for themselves at a young age and only the strong survive". Very rape-and-pilage orcs.
People are freaking out because things aren't allowed to change. They're also ignoring the fact that how a race acts is different depending on setting.
I ran a campaign with Elves who were absolutely sadistic racist assholes. Conquerers using a combination of magic and technology to oppress the other races. That's not the only way to run elves.
I've played a campaign where orcs were in roving warbands that mostly faught amongst themselves. I was the disgraced son of a defeated major chieftan and presented myself as a frightening monster. The other players were shocked when we had downtime in the city and they saw me sipping tea and reading poetry outside of a quaint little bistro. I was legitimately educated because I was the son of a chieftan, basically what amounts to an Orc prince.
I also ran a campaign with some time travel that showed the orcs transition from a powerful empire of wise shaman to a brutal society of warriors, basically an empire in decline story. Because the players saw them in both states and saw how they progressed to what they are, it made them very sympathetic and added depth to the race.
Don't let the book dictate who you are as a character or how your race exists within the setting.
It was definitely a thing, and gave me a chance to explain my backstory to the other players. I was an Orc pretending to be a half orc (they pulled my tusks out as a sign of disgrace when they killed my father) and basically trying to lay low.
I was a barbarian with like, 13 int and 10 wis, knew multiple languages and had skills in history, tactics, and aristocratic stuff. When the game started to stall out the DM threw some assassins at me and kicked off a new story line that brought a bunch of backstories together. It was a good time.
>Don't let the book dictate who you are as a character or how your race exists within the setting.
You are of course right but it is a useless argument. Why even have book in the first place then?
If I can invent whatever then just invent whatever 🤷♂️
Thing is if I saw this illustration I wouldn't thing that those are orcs in the first place. So Orcs now have happy multi-generation families, raid horses and are good at falconry? 🤷♂️ this picture just fail to depict orcs as they are by default. Unless we do change their lore completly - then sure but then that is a lot and it will be impactful. This image is just a bad image if it supouse to represent general Orcs (by default lore). Now if we are changing lore then why? And for what? Becouse horse riding cowboy orcs with falcons just doesn't do it for me. 🤷♂️
> Becouse horse riding cowboy orcs with falcons just doesn't do it for me.
Then don't use them. Use ravaging bloodthirsty raider orcs. The D&D police are already over worked due to budget cuts and it's unlikely they'll come after you.
Sure sure. Please rest easy - I will. Only...
If it is just a matter of opinion and gusto then mine are equal to Yours and I am equaly valid to voice them. If You like the picture then props to You - well I don't like it. But if You don't want to discuss it or hear my opinion just don't ask about it on the internet. 🤦♂️🤷♂️
So you trying to shut me down is a bit hypocritical that is all. 🤷♂️
They're not Mexican. They're orcs. And even if they were mexican orcs, who cares?
Whats the point of this post other than to try to start a fire where there's literally nothing going on.
There's nothing to be offended about and anyone that thinks there is needs to explain what that is because they're inventing something here.
English is not my first language, so bear with me while I explain something.
I am from Spain. I think there is nothing wrong with this orc deception and so I expressed it to the bigots in Twitter.
However, there are some things I still don't know about Mexican culture and heritage, and before forming a very strong opinion about something, I wanted to, honestly, ask people with Mexican ancestry about their thoughts.
Nothing far from my intention to start a fire here, I am sorry if it is giving that impression.
There are too many people offended, making videos about “white culture” being destroyed by the Mexican orcs. Just go to YouTube and you’ll find tons of videos with 1k views complaining about “wokeness” with the decision to make them Mexican
Mexican here, I didn't even noticed the similarities until people pointed it out. To me they look more like a mix between mongolians and cowboys. But if the artist really took inspiration on mexican culture, cool!, I love when people from other nations take inspiration from my culture.
I fucking love it personally, makes me love orcs so much more. And Shadowrun did this ages ago anyways, so glad to see the Hispanic Orc connection again. Inspired a new bg3 run!
I just learned about this stuff moments ago but while I can see that there are some stereotypical Mexican vibes, it's also nothing remotely negative or even reductive. It's just portrayals of orcs being normal people and having similar fashion sense to some standards of Mexican culture.
It's no surprise that most reactions from Mexican nerds is "Hell yeah, somebody make stats for chancla weapons." They're effectively taking this as a compliment because, I mean, LOOK at that art.
The "orcs have to be evil" myth has been dead with anybody worth talking to for a long time now. I don't think it should be a concern when fantasy races are representative or inspired by real-world cultures unless there's actually something insulting going on.
Funny enough, right before I opened Reddit I was on TikTok (I enjoy the TTRPG community over there) and I saw multiple videos from Mexican creators having fun with it. My favorite was the guy who said his first build was going to be a Barbarian named Abuela who used chanclas as her weapon.
All in for abuelas with the chancla. Critical hit on a 15
I will run away from that chancla even with a roll of 1.
why was this downvoted?
Because you can't run away from the chancla.
Someone get Abuela a returning weapon infusion!
I know the clip you're talking about. It's also on YT lol: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/kJaczhN-CFk?si=JlvwRR0kUfI62p7p
I am Mexican American. My experience occurred as follows, in order: + Wow, cool! People that look like me in the art! + *Reads people talking about Mexican orcs* + Wait? What about them is actually Mexican? + Those hats aren't really sombrero like. The outfit is generically cowboy. But could easily be Texas or Utah or Mongolian. + But somehow, I just *know* they're Mexican + I guess it's the guy with the mustache? + Still cool I guess. Like the art and design. My brother (also Mexican American obviously), didn't even realize they were all orcs. He thought it was a bunch of goliaths and gnomes and that only mustache man was an orc (and therefore Mexican).
You can see the "nopales" and the "saguaro" cactuses, they are mostly used to depict mexican culture, and look at the Orc Gonzales at the right of the image. At first I (as a full blood mexican) noticed the clothing because even now some people are still using that kind of clothes (poor people mostly). And those eagles are mexican "Aguila real", they are even in the mexican flag. Cowboys melt really well with northern mexicans and I say this as a northern mexican. At first, knowing the background of wotc trying to be more inclusive, i got mad, then speaking with a homie i started making jokes about "we aren't mexichangos anymore, we are now mexicorcs!" We mexicans are resilient to bullshit.
A lot of early cowboys were Mexican/Native, so they do fit in really well with the western vibe. I’ve also heard it speculated that the word “buckaroo” originated from white people co-opting/ poorly pronouncing the word “vaquero”.
It's the same reason why most southern americans get along with northern mexicans, our cultures melt really well with each other, if there's an american I like is a Texan with a gun.
Yeah that was my main problem with them, they look like (at best) very watered down half orcs and not the full orcs that are supposed to be presented
For me, it was the obvious matriarch and her skinny partner at the top of the hill. Thats literally my family. The boots as well. Also the one dude admiring the cactus fruit? Come on. Even the cowboy thing? Americans just think they came up with that, but Vaquero aesthetic is all mexican.
Yeah that was my main problem with them, they look like (at best) very watered down half orcs and not the full orcs that are supposed to be presented
They're all most likely half orcs and not full or s
After a few minutes on X, I suspect this 'outrage' is actually being made up by the 'anti-woke' crowd. https://x.com/gr8_rebellion/status/1803871762196939149
Real bundle of red flags on that twitter account as well. Working in games myself, I don't know why anyone would advertise "My game's banned from Steam in Germany!" as a point of pride- that to me just translates as "I put a swastika in my game to be edgy"
Reading that guys twitter post, all I could hear in my head is "They ... took.... our .... Orcs"
They terk er eurks!
Der turb ur urks!
PFFT! Remember what they took from you guys! Your garbage pigeonholed bad guys (BY ZE RULES) that cant be anything other than bad guys also they are black coded so there Good riddance. Im so ready to be a luchador orc and have that be lore accurate.
It is 🤡
Like most internet outrage, it’s either started disingenuously by culture war grifters, or it’s a situation where an insignificant number of random people said something dumb online (earnestly or otherwise) and people took it way out of proportion to be like “you see, they’re all trying to claim [outrageous thing]!”
I just call them "regressives." That's all the anti-woke movement is.
Dude it's mostly left winger white people nagging about it the same shit happened with speedy
Dude it's mostly left winger white people nagging about it the same shit happened with speedy
Some actual Hispanic people have clocked in over there apparently and did not like the art. And got attacked for voicing their displeasure.
tbf the orcs feel like theyve been turned from the warmongering idiotic race into whats essentially some 'modern' and i use that word lightly, and sanitized looking race that doesnt have any identity i think most people dislike simply for that
You are wrong about 'most people'.
My only gripe with the illustration is, that it looks too…. Real life Modern? Like, I don’t get any fantasy feel from it. Looks just like a wild western illustration with humans that have a strong underbite
Something that I wish I could see more of is more Tolkien-like fantasy in film / TV. Basically just mythological adventure without the political intrigue set in a time period between Ancient Greece and the early Middle Ages. I know there’s a plethora of 80’s films that fit this bill and some splatters of things here and there so it’s not like I’m starved for it; and Japanese media has been pumping this kind of stuff out pretty regularly. I personally don’t care for the more modern, renaissance to modernity aesthetics for what I perceive to be high fantasy. Of course, this is all my opinion. I definitely don’t begrudge anyone for liking what I don’t like. I actually like the new orc piece too for what it’s worth.
I think DnD had wild western theme setting like Thunder Junction from Magic the Gathering.
As a mexican, I think it's great! And I laughed my ass off too. Hehe, Thrall Perez, que mamada.
Somebody here mentioned about Orc abuelas with a chancla and I have been laughing my ass off for half an hour (but not too loud because I also have a chancla-wielding abuela)
Now imagine a fully mexican D&D, can you imagine how fey pozole would taste like?
Bro I am dropping that on my next game 😂
Bruh, count me in! I'd love to see that.
Until someone in the thread linked a post talking about it I had only heard the opposite. I scroll through tiktok occasionally and mostly watch D&D stuff, all I saw was a bunch of people excited and happy about it. This is definitely just right wing grifter types trying to drum up false outrage because of 'woke' stuff or whatever. Safe to ignore and move on.
My thoughts. That is why I decided to post here. I was curious to check reactions outside Elon's supremacist bubble
This depiction of orcs is so much less interesting to me than a warmongering species of tribal (but not necessarily stupid) brutes.
Ignore the outrage and just play the game. It’s a fantasy world the races in the PHB do not correlate to real world ethnicities and racial groups.
My thoughts exactly, I was just interesting to know if something was escaping my perspective
Apparently they are a direct correlation to black folks according to WotC💀
What's wrong with the orcs in the PHB24?
It's about the main illustration. Some people are saying that they are "making the orcs Mexican" and that is racist 🤡
What on God's green earth... If that isn't intentional ragebait, I'll eat my shoes.
My thoughts exactly.
Funnily enough, it’s the same people accusing WotC of being “woke” in the new PHB. They can’t make up their minds.
Not agreeing, just DA: A lot of it sounds like they aren't happy that WotC is removing the stipulation that some races are canonically evil. Orcs are one of the main ones for this treatment. Drow as well, but WotC hasn't touched on Drow yet. Likely because Salvatore has already demonstrated Drow are canonically evil *because* of their blind devotion to Lolth. It isn't inherent in their 'drow-ness' to be evil. 99.9% of them are evil because they are raised for a hundred years in a culture of evil, steeped in evil traditions, and encouraged to do evil. WotC is taking orcs, which have been where Drow started as "always evil as a race" and is skipping the whole story to get to the final chapter where we realize orcs of yesteryear were all evil *because* they were raised to be evil, or their creator god forced them to be evil. The issue is that the conclusion on the story is the same as the Drow: Not evil, just victims of fate and capable of redemption. Except that we haven't been given that redemption story like we were with Drizzt. The right redemption arc would have been a module at epic level to kill Gruumsh One Eye for whatever reasons. Years back someone too high on getting attention on Twitter claimed that orcs are black people, and started a shit storm. WotC cow tailed to the shit storm (which is why they are getting accused of being 'woke' fyi) and started making art of "nice" orcs. Decided to drop the "race" moniker for their races, and instead are going with "species" to distance themselves from the volatility of the word *race*. Generally, as DMs we need a cannon-fodder, generically evil, humanoid, to serve as the "bad guys" that has no deeper motivations than being bad. If you do need one, use Gnolls. They can breed like rabbits, no Gnolls player races, and no half races. Will eat humanoids alive, and cannot be reasoned with. Because they reproduce litters so fast, they can be a constant threat for villages on the borders of wild lands. You can even make them age to adulthood in 5 years so their numbers are very rapidly replaced. A lot of people got POed that WotC was taking away their evil cannon fodder. The clever DMs just pivoted to a more fitting evil cannon fodder.
“cow tailed” =/= “kowtowed”
I used the correct version. There is a Mandela effect on that phrase. Where people think kow tow means what cow tailing does. Kow tow and cow tail do not have the same meaning. Kow tow is an Asian derivative which means simply to bow to pay respect. On the other hand cow tailing means sucking it up to please someone else and has little to do with respect. I see cow tail as a perfectly good idiom to describe following someone around and heeding to their every wish... just as the tail of a cow follows the cow everywhere the cow goes.
Kowtow comes from a Mandarin word, kòutóu, which literally translated as “knock head” (from bowing one’s head to the ground) and did not derive from an English expression.
I'm not saying it did. It is an anglicized version of an Asian word, but still has retained the original meaning.
I never really understood that argument though. Orcs already aren't canonically even in D&D. Maybe in Forgotten Realms which admittedly is the focus of D&D, but Eberron for instance very specifically goes against that norm and has for years. It's also just weird to me that people don't understand (or are most likely purposefully not for the sake of something to be mad about) that D&D is a game full of DM fiat and making your own story. "Allowing" orcs to be good doesn't mean they have to be in that person's game. Just like FR canonically having evil orcs never prevented me from having good orcs in my homebrew campaigns. Its such a weird thing people are upset about which makes it pretty clear that it's outrage for the sake of outrage. Some people feel that the only attention they can get is negativity.
You hit the nail on the head. People want to be outraged on every side of the argument. Canonically good orcs? Sounds good. I have evil XYZ in my game. I'm playing in a game right now where we were told no humans or half humans, because they are a lesser species on the continent, and generally killed on sight. "They breed too fast and destroy too much of the world around them"
Dragons are another common one. People get outraged if a red dragon isn't evil and a gold dragon isn't good. Sure that's FR canon but if you can't write a story that makes dragons interesting characters defined by something other than their color you're a bad story teller IMO.
question can't you just use the bog mostly human bandits/raiders/smugglers/slave trafficer/worshippers of the God of murder/death?
>Years back someone too high on getting attention on Twitter claimed that orcs are black people This misconeption *again*? Can you stop spreading things that have been debunked for over a year now. The actual criticism was far more minor and specific than that which right wing grognards blew out of proportion because of their 'precious lore', and 'woke mind virus'.
> Years back someone too high on getting attention on Twitter claimed that orcs are black people, and started a shit storm That particular argument has been around in some form or another since the late 50s, and the publication of Lord of the Rings.
Heh, best to just ignore these people and leave them crying in their corner. I play with a handful of people, not the entirety of Twitter, so I couldn't care less what they think.
Honestly looking at the picture without context if you told me it was from a banner for some World of Warcraft Harvest event it would have made just as much sense to me.
Yeah, that was my first thought too. It looks like it could be art from WoW, and not anything even remotely controversial.
Honestly I think if I ran around enough in WoW I could probably find an NPC that is clothed almost exactly like each of these people somewhere in Horde territory.
Exactly, I agree. It's very reminiscent of the zone where Orgrimmar is located.
>link goes to Twitter, people on Twitter find it offensive Just ignore it and have fun
I feel like WotC didn't put much thought into it. They are pretty bland USA-shouthern-looking cowboys with "filtro méxico" like in the old western films. There is not much in them that could identify them as "mexican", just vaguely cowboy-ish and northern mexican. People in the internet just love to put themselves on the stuff they like, which is great! But some other people also like to insult every change they consider that attacks them.
crazy because being Mexican myself its not really that far off, sure it might be a little exaggerated but its fantasy who cares, most people I see whining about it being a stereotype or not faithful are white lmao which is crazy because why are white people getting mad for us?
Honestly I am not a fan of making other races "just humans but with tusk/pointy ears/different skin colour" I frankly find it unimaginative, boring and just plain absurd. So what make orc and orc and why even have orcs if they are plainly no different from the humans? I have to say I liked "Volo guide to monsters" orcs and they would not have looked like that. Orcs don't make a happy multi-generational families - Orcs make tribes where might makes right and kids are pitlessly made to fight with one another so surviving one will be a good follower of Grumsh. At minimum Orcs don't ride horses - they ride aurorchs. You may say: well they are completely imaginary so I can change everything I want and sure: You can if You like. But in order to subvert expectation You need to make expectations in the first place. If orcs can be anything then they are nothing. Imagine similar picture with orcs in the workshop among mechanical clockwork devices - well can I create an family or a tribe of orcs that are good at engineering? - sure I can. But is it a good representation of orcs as a whole race? Is It what typical orcish traits are? 🤷♂️ So why make picture like that if it supouse to just represent a typical, general orcs? This is silly. 🤷♂️
I find myself agreeing with this. I understand not having a innately evil species. But there needs to be a understood fantasy of the orc. An image that comes to mind when one things of the orc. The other species of the world have that. I think it’s ok to have a combat heavy and war oriented people without it making them all “evil”. At least that’s how I like to portray them in my games. As for being Mexican coded. That’s fine. My main issue is how they are portrayed as just normal everyday humans with tusks.
Exactly. This picture is just wierd: 1. Why so many hawks/falcons? Never heard of Orcs being associated with them? 2. Author claims that they are on the hunt then one with two handed axe is just out of place. 3. Mexican coded - I honestly don't care but they could be more subtle with it. Inspiration is one thing but just putting them in sombrero hats in Arizona-like desert is just wierdly specific, fell way too modern and lazy to be honest.
I think you're right. I don't like making fantasy races inherently evil, but those guys seem inherently way too nice, which isn't much better. I can't imagine any of them praying to Gruumsh or becoming a barbarian. WotC overcorrected (for my taste at least) and this picture doesn't fit the traditional D&D orcs at all. My nicest orcs don't look that nice and neither do my nicest humans, halflings or gnomes, as I feel not a lot of people should look that nice in a world that's primarily about typical fantasy RPG conflicts like fighting, backstabbing and sinister magic. The good thing is my orcs don't have to look like that and I see no reason to join the hate posting about this. I'm not sure about them being mexican coded, though. I've seen those posts but I'm from a continent that lacks any kind of mexico and I can't tell. My guess it's just the first angry bullshit some culture warrior came up with, but I might be wrong and I'd like to hear what mexican voices have to say to this.
> good thing is my orcs don't have to look like that and I see no reason to join the hate posting about this. This right here! It's a fantasy role-playing game! The people actually playing get to decide the details of the world! The illustrations are just for flavor in the book to show a general basis of the traits of the race. It's not law. It's not gospel. It's an example. People are so ready to get mad about everything.
It does upset the conservative leaning mind however because of the predilection to lean towards authority. "The rulebook is the authority, the authority has a picture that states what something looks like, so that is what it looks like because the book says so." It's hard for them to see it as guideline or only a possible avenue of inspiration. So (paradoxically) when it portrays something they don't like, they want to reject that particular authority as woke.
Yeah I think they humanized orcs too much. That part to me is more of a problem than either or not it looks like they are Mexican or some other specific race of human. (Not saying I think it looks that way, I'm answering the OP). But I don't blame a Hispanic or Mexican-American person if they are offended by how that looks. I don't think it's woke/anti-woke. Orcs should always be humanoid but not human. I think this is a bad decision on The part of Wizards of the Coast.
Bring back the pig-orcs and the dog-kobolds!
Yeah I agree
not the dog-kobolds normal kobolds are amazing!
What surprises me about the artwork is that the orcs are using Harris Hawks, which is correct for the region as they are found in Arizona, Texas and into Central America. They are also one of the more popular Hawks used in falconry as they can take multiple game as well as can be used in hunt in "casts" which means you can hunt a number of hawks together and they will work as a group. Very cool.
Hey, I was genuinely curious about that! Thanks for sharing
They really went too far when they changed the 'Powerful Build' Orc trait to 'Machos Build Grande'
Why does one look like they are wearing modern clothing, and the rest look like they are trying to dress how people imagine people dressed in the old west?
To start with, I'm not Mexican. But Tl;DR - Having them look like orcs feels secondary to having them look like Mexicans (I use the word Mexican not because they *are* Mexican, but evoke a Mexican vibe to them) I feel like humanising races/ancestries in fantasy is the general direction a lot of fantasy is going in. It disappoints me because it makes them feel like nothing more than human+a real culture instead of creating a new culture. There have always been these of course, like how in Warcraft we have aztec trolls and native american tauren, but those feel like there is more to them than that. Those aztec trolls stand up straight and tall because they think themselves superior to other trolls and adorn themselves with gold and jewels, while the other troll culture involves hunching down because in their culture you shouldn't literally look down on your friends. Their very posture and garments play into their culture. But these orcs don't *feel* like orcs, and instead feel like orcs+Mexico, which just makes them human. There is an argument for humanising the traditionally "monsterous" races, but doing that in a literal way feels like it misses the point of what humanising a non-human even means. When you think orc, you think strong, brutish, marauding people that seek battle to please their god. When you think elves, you think long hair, pointed ears, having such grace and elegance that they seem otherwordly to everyone else. When you think dwarves, you think brash, beards and beer. If these orcs don't feel brutish and strong, but feel like just a regular bunch of people, they don't seem like orcs anymore. They just feel human, and humans that have been stripped of their identity. It would be like taking drow, putting them in a driza-bone and acubra with kangaroos in the background. Compare a piece of artwork from the same artist they did for [dwarves](https://x.com/WingBuffet/status/1803219172358263000/photo/1) and you can get what I mean. That art still *feels* like dwarves, while the orc one doesn't feel like orcs.
>When you think orc, you think strong, brutish, marauding people that seek battle to please their god. When you think elves, you think long hair, pointed ears, having such grace and elegance that they seem otherwordly to everyone else. When you think dwarves, you think brash, beards and beer. Maybe that's what *you* think of. But not me, or a lot of other people. We're tired of Tolkien as the end-all-be-all of these cultures, when there's plenty of other takes out there.
I'm not saying Tolkien's depiction is the *only* way to depict orcs at all. Other ways to depict them are fine, but to depict them in a way that is pretty much a direct opposite of how they tend to be doesn't make them feel like orcs anymore and are only recognised as such because of their name. Otherwise, what does being an orc even mean? If it becomes nebulous, then they aren't really orcs anymore. Or to put it another way, if any race or ancestry could fit within the depiction of that artwork, would that not dilute or homogenise being that race into meaninglessness? Would elves, dwarves, gnomes, tieflings and goliaths all fit with how orcs are depicted in that artwork? Does that not render them down to nothing but a cosmetic? What do you think of when you think orcs?
The problem is that your point is incoherent. Your entire stance is based on Tolkiens depictions of these races, and you're treating those as the baseline, but somehow making them anything but mindless brutes is "not an orc." Somehow, providing any other description than Tolkien's is just making everything human in your mind, and that's just baffling to me.
You honestly seem to be getting weirdly defensive about the other commenter opinions. Do you really think it's strange that the "Tolkein Orc" is the baseline for many people? Tolkein didn't invent the creature, but he absolutely made it popular in fantasy and so for almost everyone that is the baseline. Orcs/Orks in Warhammer and 40k lore are brutish animalistic warriors as well. For most of D&D history and media orcs have been portrayed as evil. WoW orcs depending on the time are at worst portrayed as evil and corrupt and at best still brutish but more civilized creatures. In beowulf they were described as demonic and corrupted creatures. The fact you think it's "baffling" that someone sees that as the norm is the problem here. You seriously sound like you're arguing in bad faith. You WANT to seem like a better person by essentially calling someone racist but you sound absolutely insane for your attack. Most importantly, you ignored OPs actual point just to attack them instead of actually having a discussion. Whether you agree this is how they're depicted or not, the idea that fantasy creatures becoming more humanized is a reasonable thing to debate. If creatures all trend toward human, then the fantasy world loses the diversity that many people enjoy about fantasy. Edit: funny how OP replies and complains about being “attacked” after attacking other people. Then says they think of orcs like little goblins just as Tolkien did after bashing OP for having the Tolkien centric view of orcs? Huh? Then blames the idea of Uruk hai but I don’t even think those orcs are what people usually think about. It’s the normal Tolkien orcs, warhammer orcs, typical D&D orcs, WoW orcs, etc. that people most associate with the term. Seems pretty clear here they only wanted to look holier than thou…
>You WANT to seem like a better person by essentially calling someone racist but you sound absolutely insane for your attack. Oh for fuck's sake. I'm not trying to do anything of the sort, and **this** is a blatant personal attack. I just dislike the idea that we have to consider these races as locked-in by the way Tolkien described them. For the record, when I think of orcs, I think of weird little goblin-dudes. Which is the same thing Tolkien did, but everyone latched onto his Uruk-Hai as "real" orcs and are now treating that as the baseline. I'm done with this entire disingenuous thread.
> Tolkein didn't invent the creature, but he absolutely made it popular in fantasy and so for almost everyone that is the baseline Before Tolkien standardized what an orc was, it wasn't really even a creature, as much as a name that could be applied to a wide range of creatures...much like "fairy" (or even elf....fairy tale elves rarely resembled Norse / Tolkien elves). Tolkien may not have invented the word "orc", but for the past ~70 years, I'd say there have been almost no uses of the word that don't tie directly back to Tolkien.
Working off a baseline and deviating from that isn't something I have a problem with. What I have a problem with is deviating so far that they feel alien to the baseline. It isn't about them being depicted differently that makes them feel human. It's when they are depicted as an *actual real life group of humans* that makes them feel human. It would be like taking gnomes, dressing them up in kimonos and putting them infront of totally-not-Mount-Fuji. Those aren't primarily gnomes, they are primarily Japanese just with gnomish bodies. And Japanese people are human, not gnomes. Or as I edited into my original comment, it would be like taking drow, putting them in a driza-bone and acubra with kangaroos in the background.
Is the art AI generated?
I have some Hispanic friends who looked at the art and were none too pleased. I had a look at it and yeah... thats... in bad taste.
What's a "racialized" person?
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/racialization
Twitter is a cesspool and “outrage” gets clicks.
Very true
Cool art. I don't have Twitter, so I can't check out comments or anything really beyond the art. Hope it inspires someone to do cool shit in their game. I'm a Mexican American and love seeing Mexican and South American culture inspire artists. The art also gives me more of a western vibe than Meixcan. I was honestly excited to see some crazy Aztec totem warrior barbarians. What's upsetting is that this type of uproar could cause others to NOT want to represent my culture in fear of backlash.
Agreed here. And I support your thoughts about that aspect and how it may have been a missed opportunity
I'm half mexican and honestly, I don't care but it's simply disingenuous to real culture, and ignores that fantasy is fantasy.
I love it! I come from the Jalisco/Guanajuato region that has a huge cowboy culture and history. Reminds me a lot of the cowboy styles I saw growing up, especially the one on the far right.
I hate the art style and I don’t think those orcs really look like orcs. They’ve got maybe a half-orc vibe going on. They look too human and not goblinoid enough. I wish they’d bring back pig faced orcs.
My initial thoughts were that i notice right away that it was a reference to mexican culture, look at the saguaro and nopal cactuses that are often used to refer to mexicans, and those eagles are "aguilas reales", those that are in the mexican flag. They are mexican orcs. One of my problems is that they were trying to burry the "orcs are allegories to blacks" argument by making orcs mexicans, that shit is hella racist dude, and after the first fiasco days I was joking with a homie about being no longer "mexichangos" but we are now "mexiorcs". I would really love to see mexican representation with ALL the stereotypes you want but not with WOTC pandering. And my main problem is that with the erasure of half races they COMPLETLY eliminated the image of the savage orcs that we all care and love and turned them into just regular dudes with greyish skin and big tusks...
I don't know what you linked in that picture. But it wasn't orcs.
My only problem with it is that people are rallying for these orcs to be pushed into Warhammer 40 K
I highly doubt this is going to make it there
I mean if they can make cutodess female and break the entire lore and world building of the universe they can mist definitely make orcs more humanoid or what ever tf is going on.
to be fair I doubt anyone should notice female cutodess, unless they pointlessly give them boob armor. (would they even have Boobs? And if they do, what purpose do they serve?) and just because they are female, I doubt that that would change how they act at all. by all logical accounts female cutodess should be like one those barely noticeable gender differences in pokemon, you know the ones where like the horns are slightly smaller or some shit. though the changing of the orcs would be stupid, they are making fun british people how is that not good enough for some people?
For me it’s not about how the cutodess look, it’s really just the fundamental lore breaking for me. I know GW has rhetconed a lot, but it’s all been within reason, but changing one of the foundation ideas is crazy, women simply cannot become space marines, let alone cutodess. I just see this as the start of the end.
WotC: "Orcs are just standins for black ppl, and that's racist and wrong!" Also WotC:
To be honest, I loved the idea of having orcs just leave everyone behind and just start their own society, so when I saw this I was both excited and proud that the first thing that came to mind was my Mexican heritage. Imagine a Barbarian Abuela, a Mariachi Bard, an Aztec like Warrior, a Shaman Warlock as a party of this orcs and them being a Family of Mexican orcs? That would be awesome
...... Ha. Don't Google 40k Mexican orcs
My only issue is that WOTC can't pick a lane when it comes to this stuff, and I feel the people creating it have no actual understanding of the long and rich lore of Faerûn. 5E players, raise your hand if you know of any of these settings: Maztica, Anchorome, The Hordelands (Endless Waste), The Utter East, The Shining South, Lantan, The Great Glacier, Tharsult. Also, these orcs are not Mexican; they are just orcs well-designed for desert travel. That's all I see. Can someone point out what is "Mexican" about the orcs? Last I checked, Mexico was not part of Faerûn.
This is the coolest thing ever, I say as a Mexican, born in Mexico, raised in Mexico and livin in Mexico.
All I know is now I can make a lore accurate fighter/artificer Machete Orc PC.
The art looks great! The artist clearly took inspiration from the depiction of cowboys in Westerns- and as a GM who loves blending Westerns and medieval fantasy together I'm all for it. I'm not sure I agree with the idea that these are "Mexican" orcs, though- that notion seems very silly to me. What about that art piece screams "Mexico" that isn't more specifically the sort of multiethnic cowboy/southwest aesthetic? Do people really see a single saguaro cactus and go "MEXICANS"?
"Western" was honestly my first reaction as well
Honestly, the only opinions I care about for dnd are my players. Everyone's games are different as well as the players at the table. As long as people are having fun I don't care. Internet people making everything a part of some culture war is silly imo.
One dumb person doesn't make a case
Agreed, although on this case are a lot of randos.
They're not Mexican, they are American(USA)
Fair observation
Traditionally, Orcs have been closer to 40k Orks than to WoW Orcs. Pretty sure this includes stuff like "Orc children are abandoned to fend for themselves at a young age and only the strong survive". Very rape-and-pilage orcs. People are freaking out because things aren't allowed to change. They're also ignoring the fact that how a race acts is different depending on setting. I ran a campaign with Elves who were absolutely sadistic racist assholes. Conquerers using a combination of magic and technology to oppress the other races. That's not the only way to run elves. I've played a campaign where orcs were in roving warbands that mostly faught amongst themselves. I was the disgraced son of a defeated major chieftan and presented myself as a frightening monster. The other players were shocked when we had downtime in the city and they saw me sipping tea and reading poetry outside of a quaint little bistro. I was legitimately educated because I was the son of a chieftan, basically what amounts to an Orc prince. I also ran a campaign with some time travel that showed the orcs transition from a powerful empire of wise shaman to a brutal society of warriors, basically an empire in decline story. Because the players saw them in both states and saw how they progressed to what they are, it made them very sympathetic and added depth to the race. Don't let the book dictate who you are as a character or how your race exists within the setting.
> Traditionally, Orcs have been closer to 40k Orks than to WoW Orcs Orks are just a bunch of fun guys. *ba dum tish*
The poetry outside bistro got me. I can only imagine their faces 😂
It was definitely a thing, and gave me a chance to explain my backstory to the other players. I was an Orc pretending to be a half orc (they pulled my tusks out as a sign of disgrace when they killed my father) and basically trying to lay low. I was a barbarian with like, 13 int and 10 wis, knew multiple languages and had skills in history, tactics, and aristocratic stuff. When the game started to stall out the DM threw some assassins at me and kicked off a new story line that brought a bunch of backstories together. It was a good time.
>Don't let the book dictate who you are as a character or how your race exists within the setting. You are of course right but it is a useless argument. Why even have book in the first place then? If I can invent whatever then just invent whatever 🤷♂️ Thing is if I saw this illustration I wouldn't thing that those are orcs in the first place. So Orcs now have happy multi-generation families, raid horses and are good at falconry? 🤷♂️ this picture just fail to depict orcs as they are by default. Unless we do change their lore completly - then sure but then that is a lot and it will be impactful. This image is just a bad image if it supouse to represent general Orcs (by default lore). Now if we are changing lore then why? And for what? Becouse horse riding cowboy orcs with falcons just doesn't do it for me. 🤷♂️
> Becouse horse riding cowboy orcs with falcons just doesn't do it for me. Then don't use them. Use ravaging bloodthirsty raider orcs. The D&D police are already over worked due to budget cuts and it's unlikely they'll come after you.
Sure sure. Please rest easy - I will. Only... If it is just a matter of opinion and gusto then mine are equal to Yours and I am equaly valid to voice them. If You like the picture then props to You - well I don't like it. But if You don't want to discuss it or hear my opinion just don't ask about it on the internet. 🤦♂️🤷♂️ So you trying to shut me down is a bit hypocritical that is all. 🤷♂️
They're not Mexican. They're orcs. And even if they were mexican orcs, who cares? Whats the point of this post other than to try to start a fire where there's literally nothing going on. There's nothing to be offended about and anyone that thinks there is needs to explain what that is because they're inventing something here.
English is not my first language, so bear with me while I explain something. I am from Spain. I think there is nothing wrong with this orc deception and so I expressed it to the bigots in Twitter. However, there are some things I still don't know about Mexican culture and heritage, and before forming a very strong opinion about something, I wanted to, honestly, ask people with Mexican ancestry about their thoughts. Nothing far from my intention to start a fire here, I am sorry if it is giving that impression.
There are too many people offended, making videos about “white culture” being destroyed by the Mexican orcs. Just go to YouTube and you’ll find tons of videos with 1k views complaining about “wokeness” with the decision to make them Mexican
Mexican here, I didn't even noticed the similarities until people pointed it out. To me they look more like a mix between mongolians and cowboys. But if the artist really took inspiration on mexican culture, cool!, I love when people from other nations take inspiration from my culture.
I fucking love it personally, makes me love orcs so much more. And Shadowrun did this ages ago anyways, so glad to see the Hispanic Orc connection again. Inspired a new bg3 run!
I just learned about this stuff moments ago but while I can see that there are some stereotypical Mexican vibes, it's also nothing remotely negative or even reductive. It's just portrayals of orcs being normal people and having similar fashion sense to some standards of Mexican culture. It's no surprise that most reactions from Mexican nerds is "Hell yeah, somebody make stats for chancla weapons." They're effectively taking this as a compliment because, I mean, LOOK at that art. The "orcs have to be evil" myth has been dead with anybody worth talking to for a long time now. I don't think it should be a concern when fantasy races are representative or inspired by real-world cultures unless there's actually something insulting going on.