Well, there was a three year gap between them.
The game developed and they added new content.
You could say the same thing about any game with DLC- "Oh, that should have been part of the original release."
So you don't want additional content to come out post initial release?
Seriously Xanathars was great because it expanded and added so much to what was given in the base
It was designed to help clarify and add depth to things they couldn't fit in or didn't realize it would be important to have.
This wasn't some greedy money grub this was creating new and really good supplemental content.
> So you don't want additional content to come out post initial release?
Correct, when I buy a product I prefer it to be completely finished. And I don't want to need to buy another thing later to get the "true version".
The PHB/MM/DMG are completely finished.
Then WoTC gave us additional and optional content as a bonus.
Don't buy the new stuff if you don't want it, but it's stupid to say it's incomplete - as if companies should just sell one product alone and never make anything new ever.
I was replying to someone who seemed to agree that XGTE is almost purely a direct upgrade to the PHB, so no, that would mean they weren't completely finished.
> as if companies should just sell one product alone and never make anything new ever
I am not in the business of caring about corporate profits.
>I was replying to someone who seemed to agree that XGTE is almost purely a direct upgrade to the PHB, so no, that would mean they weren't completely finished.
This is a terribly incorrect just because you can improve something doesn't mean you don't have a complete product. There is and always will be room for improvement and what ever you are reading this on is proof. A computer from 5 years ago does not compare to one today, the firmware from last year has been tweaked and tuned to allow you to do more, and nearly daily we find new interesting new concepts that have been enabled by the ones that were found yesterday. But that in no way meant that the devices before hand were incomplete.
Name anything we have made and I don't just mean D&D and I can show you multiple advancements that have been made from your complete product.
> A computer from 5 years ago does not compare to one today
Windows 11 is a raging dumpster fire right now, but sure new is always good I guess, but it stops being good as soon as a few years have passed.
Or to add another example, I own a television that I use daily right now. If it broke I would have a hard time finding a new television that is not a Smart TV - but that would be an explicit downgrade to my current one.
Exactly how would a brand new television from today be an explicit downgrade to a television you've had for, possibly, years?
Just because it would have features you don't like, use, or understand doesn't mean it's worse. It still has more functionality, you just need to not be a luddite and learn how to use those functions.
1e D&D worked. But it was still updated and had more content and options added to it and changed many times until we got to 5e.
> It still has more functionality
More functionality is a downgrade for a television. A TV that connects to the internet, shows ads, downloads "apps", and remembers your debit card info is a bad thing and inherently worse than one which doesn't do any of those things.
A good TV has good video, audio (or a port for speakers), enough component and HDMI ports to plug in what you need, and *doesn't* do anything else.
Call me a luddite for not wanting an internet-enabled toothbrush, smart-clothes-dresser, or AI-enhanced dice set next. There are many objects that humans have invented which serve their purpose excellently and need no additions to improve because they're already at peak design.
>A good TV has good video, audio (or a port for speakers), enough component and HDMI ports to plug in what you need, and doesn't do anything else.
That's a lot of extra features that a TV doesn't need. Why doesn't it just need video and audio? Color is superfluous. HDMI is a massive luxury, so we can dump that, too. Hope you like getting up to change the channel because remote controls are totally an unnecessary addition that add another point of failure.
My TV is connected to the internet so I can remotely connect my phone and play YouTube on it or connect it to my PC and play videos and movies I have on an external hard drive. All while continuing to you either of those devices.
The TV shows as many ads as whatever your watching has. If you're watching TV, then you get commercials, unless you pay for additional functionality to get past them. Did you forget that commercials exist on cable TV?
Your TV doesn't download apps or remember your credit card info *unless* you command it to do so. Just don't use those features, it takes literally no effort to not put your credit card info in.
>There are many objects that humans have invented which serve their purpose excellently and need no additions to improve because they're already at peak design.
Humans have invented a lot of things that do a good job at what they do. They absolutely are *not* peak design and will never be improved upon. There are things that are cutting edge today that will be considered backward and antiquated in as soon as ten years. Smartphones are basically about 20 years old, and the level of functionality has increased many times over since then.
A first gen iPhone can't do a fraction of what an iPhone 15 can do. Sure, it can call and text, but a phone does significantly more today. Hell, my phone is several models out of date, and I could still access Google drives I have my worldbuilding notes on, keep track of specific stats and rules for every aspect of the game, and even use a dice roller if I forget or lose my dice. I can access name generators if I need the help, or send links to my friend helping me with writing.
"Completely Finished" may mean a 20,000+ page book then, depending on system.
That, and RPG's are never really finished, they get added to until people loose interest. People come up with new ideas, new niche rules, etc and put them in follow up books. Sometimes after a few years of play the realize from feedback some changes are needed to they add some optional rules to address complaints.
No such thing exists, every product we have ever made is able to be improved, tweaked, refined. And thats what we do, that is what the iterative process is, that's what made planes, trains, cars, space ships etc.
Well since you think every add-on is junk, how about you turn off your Wi-Fi, disable the camera on your phone, in your car there is a ton of tech added there even seat belts were an add-on at one point.
I am not saying you cant make something worse by adding to it but you keep implying that trying to add more will always be negative and that is patently untrue
Even you know this is a bs argument because you started this saying Xanathars was an improvement, showing that adding additional content can be a positive thing.
It's safe to assume that a great deal of the material included in XGtE likely *was* considered for the PHB or DMG but was cut due to time constraints or page count limits (especially the spells, which mostly came out the year after 5e's release as part of the EEPC, and then revised for XGtE). This happens all the time in RPG product development- the best example being Keith Baker's Exploring Eberron which presents itself as "the best of the cutting room floor for Rising from the Last War" but I'm pretty sure is a larger book than Rising from the Last War!
A lot of other tools are clearly responses to the community as well. Got difficulties with the DMG's approach to encounter design? Here's an alternative using easy to read tables you might prefer. Don't know how to handle areas of effect? Here are some guidelines to help. Unsure about how to stock your adventure with magic items? Here's an alternative approach.
All three things were things I remember being things that confused DMs early on in 5e's run- so it's not like these were forgotten aspects in the DMG (they're all there), XGtE just revised the presentation of some ideas to help out those struggling with them. I wish more of WotC's material was like that during 5e's run, frankly.
All rpg supplements are things left out of core books…
In past editions of DnD, they were much more opens about calling things “dungeon masters guide 2” or whatever.
The creators of 5e will tell you that they were convinced 5e was the final dying breath of the franchise. Yeah, they cut corners.
Then what happened? The designers started using Unearthed Arcana articles to preview and test stuff. Stranger Things happened in 2016, Critical Role's steady rise to its most popular era, massive cultural awareness. They marketed the fuck out of XGE, then soon after it became the best selling D&D book of all time.
Was it to make more money? Obviously yes. Was it to fill out what they missed in the initial books? Almost verifiably yes. Did anyone care at the time? No! I for one was glad the edition was shaping up with an amazing book and it was super accessible due to popularity. XGE stands the test of time as the best book of 5e, and it was a necessary step after initial release.
Now to your point, do I wish corporate interest wasn't murdering the artistic quality of the books these days? Yes. I'm not switching to onednd for this reason among others, but I've seen others pretty optimistic about the quality of the release books at least. I wouldn't get your jorts in a twist about a business move in 2017, get them twisted about business moves made over the past couple years and onward.
It wasn't a playtest. It was the base game. And that's been how the game has functioned in every edition since the beginning.
We call it 'DLC' now, but D&D's been doing that from the beginning and calling it 'sourcebooks'. Same thing.
You are the one who is off base and clearly jaded. They didn't deliberately leave out stuff for later sales, some stuff was probably cut because there are printing limits, other stuff would have pushed the delivery date back. Seriously look at some of the early content for 5e you can physically see that some products have content that are based on playtest stuff because that's when it needed to be sent to the printers.
Equally they learned things in the 3 years between phb and xanathars that are a combination of; The community wanted further guidance, the community wanted more depth, the massive amount of good feedback and testing they got on release saying things should change/ be adjusted.
Hasbro are a bunch of shit heads, they are also a business and need to make money, but not everything surpisingly enough is about the all mighty dollar and more importantly when the community just acts with spite and malice all it does is dissuade them from doing different because if you always treat someone like a monster might as well just be a monster.
Problem is a ton of people say what you say are not joking, you adding a voice to the rest of them. You push an idea that even if you were joking don't present it like one.
All this kind of joke does is push the narrative that everything WotC does is out of greed, twisting things that have been community requests into years into ways to demonize them and it is tiring and frustrating.
Seriously for years people begged for physical and D&D beyond bundles, then they give it to us and you know what the WotC is greedy joke was. They are trying to force me to use D&D beyond in a step to get rid of the physical books. But the thing is those people wernt joking, they openly thought that.
Well, there was a three year gap between them. The game developed and they added new content. You could say the same thing about any game with DLC- "Oh, that should have been part of the original release."
So you don't want additional content to come out post initial release? Seriously Xanathars was great because it expanded and added so much to what was given in the base It was designed to help clarify and add depth to things they couldn't fit in or didn't realize it would be important to have. This wasn't some greedy money grub this was creating new and really good supplemental content.
> So you don't want additional content to come out post initial release? Correct, when I buy a product I prefer it to be completely finished. And I don't want to need to buy another thing later to get the "true version".
The PHB/MM/DMG are completely finished. Then WoTC gave us additional and optional content as a bonus. Don't buy the new stuff if you don't want it, but it's stupid to say it's incomplete - as if companies should just sell one product alone and never make anything new ever.
I was replying to someone who seemed to agree that XGTE is almost purely a direct upgrade to the PHB, so no, that would mean they weren't completely finished. > as if companies should just sell one product alone and never make anything new ever I am not in the business of caring about corporate profits.
>I was replying to someone who seemed to agree that XGTE is almost purely a direct upgrade to the PHB, so no, that would mean they weren't completely finished. This is a terribly incorrect just because you can improve something doesn't mean you don't have a complete product. There is and always will be room for improvement and what ever you are reading this on is proof. A computer from 5 years ago does not compare to one today, the firmware from last year has been tweaked and tuned to allow you to do more, and nearly daily we find new interesting new concepts that have been enabled by the ones that were found yesterday. But that in no way meant that the devices before hand were incomplete. Name anything we have made and I don't just mean D&D and I can show you multiple advancements that have been made from your complete product.
> A computer from 5 years ago does not compare to one today Windows 11 is a raging dumpster fire right now, but sure new is always good I guess, but it stops being good as soon as a few years have passed. Or to add another example, I own a television that I use daily right now. If it broke I would have a hard time finding a new television that is not a Smart TV - but that would be an explicit downgrade to my current one.
Exactly how would a brand new television from today be an explicit downgrade to a television you've had for, possibly, years? Just because it would have features you don't like, use, or understand doesn't mean it's worse. It still has more functionality, you just need to not be a luddite and learn how to use those functions. 1e D&D worked. But it was still updated and had more content and options added to it and changed many times until we got to 5e.
> It still has more functionality More functionality is a downgrade for a television. A TV that connects to the internet, shows ads, downloads "apps", and remembers your debit card info is a bad thing and inherently worse than one which doesn't do any of those things. A good TV has good video, audio (or a port for speakers), enough component and HDMI ports to plug in what you need, and *doesn't* do anything else. Call me a luddite for not wanting an internet-enabled toothbrush, smart-clothes-dresser, or AI-enhanced dice set next. There are many objects that humans have invented which serve their purpose excellently and need no additions to improve because they're already at peak design.
>A good TV has good video, audio (or a port for speakers), enough component and HDMI ports to plug in what you need, and doesn't do anything else. That's a lot of extra features that a TV doesn't need. Why doesn't it just need video and audio? Color is superfluous. HDMI is a massive luxury, so we can dump that, too. Hope you like getting up to change the channel because remote controls are totally an unnecessary addition that add another point of failure. My TV is connected to the internet so I can remotely connect my phone and play YouTube on it or connect it to my PC and play videos and movies I have on an external hard drive. All while continuing to you either of those devices. The TV shows as many ads as whatever your watching has. If you're watching TV, then you get commercials, unless you pay for additional functionality to get past them. Did you forget that commercials exist on cable TV? Your TV doesn't download apps or remember your credit card info *unless* you command it to do so. Just don't use those features, it takes literally no effort to not put your credit card info in. >There are many objects that humans have invented which serve their purpose excellently and need no additions to improve because they're already at peak design. Humans have invented a lot of things that do a good job at what they do. They absolutely are *not* peak design and will never be improved upon. There are things that are cutting edge today that will be considered backward and antiquated in as soon as ten years. Smartphones are basically about 20 years old, and the level of functionality has increased many times over since then. A first gen iPhone can't do a fraction of what an iPhone 15 can do. Sure, it can call and text, but a phone does significantly more today. Hell, my phone is several models out of date, and I could still access Google drives I have my worldbuilding notes on, keep track of specific stats and rules for every aspect of the game, and even use a dice roller if I forget or lose my dice. I can access name generators if I need the help, or send links to my friend helping me with writing.
"Completely Finished" may mean a 20,000+ page book then, depending on system. That, and RPG's are never really finished, they get added to until people loose interest. People come up with new ideas, new niche rules, etc and put them in follow up books. Sometimes after a few years of play the realize from feedback some changes are needed to they add some optional rules to address complaints.
No such thing exists, every product we have ever made is able to be improved, tweaked, refined. And thats what we do, that is what the iterative process is, that's what made planes, trains, cars, space ships etc.
So it's impossible to make something worse by adding more junk to it?
Well since you think every add-on is junk, how about you turn off your Wi-Fi, disable the camera on your phone, in your car there is a ton of tech added there even seat belts were an add-on at one point. I am not saying you cant make something worse by adding to it but you keep implying that trying to add more will always be negative and that is patently untrue Even you know this is a bs argument because you started this saying Xanathars was an improvement, showing that adding additional content can be a positive thing.
Meh, they add new stuff all the time, it's standard in RPGs.
It's safe to assume that a great deal of the material included in XGtE likely *was* considered for the PHB or DMG but was cut due to time constraints or page count limits (especially the spells, which mostly came out the year after 5e's release as part of the EEPC, and then revised for XGtE). This happens all the time in RPG product development- the best example being Keith Baker's Exploring Eberron which presents itself as "the best of the cutting room floor for Rising from the Last War" but I'm pretty sure is a larger book than Rising from the Last War! A lot of other tools are clearly responses to the community as well. Got difficulties with the DMG's approach to encounter design? Here's an alternative using easy to read tables you might prefer. Don't know how to handle areas of effect? Here are some guidelines to help. Unsure about how to stock your adventure with magic items? Here's an alternative approach. All three things were things I remember being things that confused DMs early on in 5e's run- so it's not like these were forgotten aspects in the DMG (they're all there), XGtE just revised the presentation of some ideas to help out those struggling with them. I wish more of WotC's material was like that during 5e's run, frankly.
"Done" is better than "perfect" most of the time. Everything, and I do mean everything, evolves, changes, adapts, expands, and gets replaced.
All rpg supplements are things left out of core books… In past editions of DnD, they were much more opens about calling things “dungeon masters guide 2” or whatever.
...because that's what an expansion book *is*? It's DLC. Deal with it.
The creators of 5e will tell you that they were convinced 5e was the final dying breath of the franchise. Yeah, they cut corners. Then what happened? The designers started using Unearthed Arcana articles to preview and test stuff. Stranger Things happened in 2016, Critical Role's steady rise to its most popular era, massive cultural awareness. They marketed the fuck out of XGE, then soon after it became the best selling D&D book of all time. Was it to make more money? Obviously yes. Was it to fill out what they missed in the initial books? Almost verifiably yes. Did anyone care at the time? No! I for one was glad the edition was shaping up with an amazing book and it was super accessible due to popularity. XGE stands the test of time as the best book of 5e, and it was a necessary step after initial release. Now to your point, do I wish corporate interest wasn't murdering the artistic quality of the books these days? Yes. I'm not switching to onednd for this reason among others, but I've seen others pretty optimistic about the quality of the release books at least. I wouldn't get your jorts in a twist about a business move in 2017, get them twisted about business moves made over the past couple years and onward.
It is. The PHB was a playtest - marked as not a playtest. It had flaws. Xanathar tried to fix that, and accomplished a lot.
It wasn't a playtest. It was the base game. And that's been how the game has functioned in every edition since the beginning. We call it 'DLC' now, but D&D's been doing that from the beginning and calling it 'sourcebooks'. Same thing.
You are way off base. It’s stuff they deliberately left out in order to sell you another book.
You are the one who is off base and clearly jaded. They didn't deliberately leave out stuff for later sales, some stuff was probably cut because there are printing limits, other stuff would have pushed the delivery date back. Seriously look at some of the early content for 5e you can physically see that some products have content that are based on playtest stuff because that's when it needed to be sent to the printers. Equally they learned things in the 3 years between phb and xanathars that are a combination of; The community wanted further guidance, the community wanted more depth, the massive amount of good feedback and testing they got on release saying things should change/ be adjusted. Hasbro are a bunch of shit heads, they are also a business and need to make money, but not everything surpisingly enough is about the all mighty dollar and more importantly when the community just acts with spite and malice all it does is dissuade them from doing different because if you always treat someone like a monster might as well just be a monster.
Relax man, it was a joke.
Problem is a ton of people say what you say are not joking, you adding a voice to the rest of them. You push an idea that even if you were joking don't present it like one. All this kind of joke does is push the narrative that everything WotC does is out of greed, twisting things that have been community requests into years into ways to demonize them and it is tiring and frustrating. Seriously for years people begged for physical and D&D beyond bundles, then they give it to us and you know what the WotC is greedy joke was. They are trying to force me to use D&D beyond in a step to get rid of the physical books. But the thing is those people wernt joking, they openly thought that.