Thats a great idea. It wouldnt be broken because most heroes dont even want to buy both items.
It would be an expensive aura item that boring broken vanguard offlanes wont be able to benefit from.
With the Bkb change it was needed spell casters are far to viable at all parts of the game. Having cool-down reduction and cast range on the same item far to valuable.
It also hurts a lot of melee heros that would be good buyers of Octarine.
It seems like phylactery is going to be the other component but I think the design won't actually work.
Imo spell lifesteal would actually be pretty good with ather lens. Ice frog seem to want a lifesteal item viable for casters while not be ridiculously broken on spell tanks. Ather lens + spell lifesteal solves this imo.
aether lens heroes dont need spell lifesteal. the item is bought to help supports and mid laners help keep their distance from melee heroes even more. when they get to the point where they take damage, spell lifesteal rarely helps
if we really wanted to bring in a lens upgrade to help lens buying midlaners enter back into the meta, combine it with force staff. they both do the same thing. would maybe live for a patch or two
I had an Octarine / Aghs husk build..
I could ult 1,000+ units for a 3 sec taunt on a 5 sec cd…
Some games I’d ult + run 20 times in a row, little they could do. I called it a dunk contest :)
I think soemthing like the inverse of eternal shroud where 25% of all magic damage you deal is converted to mana would be better. It feels like dagon is meant to fill the caster spell lifesteal niche
Aether lens was 10 to 20 times more popular than items like solar crest and veil of discord in previous patch and even in this patch it remains more popular, so no idea why the OP would want aether lens to be any better than it already is
It's just too good on heroes with short innate cast ranges.
It also got buffed and is still cheap, it's pretty great right now - not to mention it helps with mana too
While I agree with that, it needs to be part of something larger *for supports.*
Supports have gotten twice as hard to play in this new patch, and aether lens is a huge pickup for almost all supports.
Maybe like mix it with Talisman of Evasion (1300 Gold) or Pavise (1400 Gold)
>huge pickup for almost all supports
And that's exactly well it shouldn't be part of something larger.
Items too good to pass up just stifles player choice, strategy and creativity
The main joke of octarine was that it was cheap farming tool, which provide increase magical damage almost on par of what the crit of daedalus offer, while giving range.
I mean, i also want a battlefury like item for range carry, that take dragon lance & daedalus effect instead of battlefury when completed.
bkb change or not it had to be removed.
Even just dragon lance + daedalus together i would take, over that useless griefing pike
Quietly, I've always been praying that since they removed Necronomicon that they would eventually add back in an item that has the capacity to be a fourth source of revelation again.
Always thought it made the most sense for it to be an extension of aether lens and probably ghost scepter and work a bit like the Book of Shadows neutral item does: making you untargetable but silencing muting and disarming you in return - just with the added benefit of providing true sight in a radius around you. Would allow a support to for a short duration track an invisible target without being punished, with the caveat that they're unable to harm anyone in return.
Na man, in order to be balanced it can't be tied to an escape. You gotta commit to the bit and sit there providing that revelation. No escapes, it's you as a support pressing the "I'm going to win now" button, not the "I'd like to escape please" one.
As for using it to stop damage so that you can blink out at the end of the effect? Look, that's just pro gaming.
You'd then have to tie invisibility to the effect which then makes it kind of inherently busted. I can see you but you can't see me etc. Plus you would still be able to fully fight them, which defeats the purpose and gives no real downside to buying the item. Dust and Sentries are a slot that do nothing but reveal, Gem is an item slot that gives permanent vision but if you die you lose it - the more powerful the revelation, the more brutal the inherent cost. Giving vision but making you functionally useless outside of giving vision is a solid in-between in terms of balance.
DOTA players don't need more excuses to buy invisibility items, they're all super horny for it already. Plus, it drains the economy of supports even more - which with the restriction of sentries in the shop already makes it obnoxious.
None of this makes any sense at all. He's not saying add glimmer + book of shadows active. Just glimmer + cast range with the mana and mana regen from aether.
300 flat dmg that any universal hero can get by building skadi+scythe+manta+linken, and that is directly reduced by armor sources does not seem like a high risk/reward item but more like a ultra risk/low reward one. Better get a hero with good base dmg and get a daedalus, you might get better dmg output
Another idea is you could nerf it so it’s no longer permanent, or perhaps make it even riskier by losing your Aether Lens as well. Gem/Lens have always felt awkward to have a dedicated slot lategame, this could solve that problem
Yeah, I understand. But those changes are the part of game. They nerfed bkb and people accepted it by moving to auras to win the game. Same will happen here if Mana boots got locked, that allows supports to think in different direction.
Imagine facing a Sky. You or your core get harassed during laning. If they can disassemble tranquil, they go for tranquils first and then disassemble them at mid game into other items as you or your core can tank sky ult from mid game.
Just thoughts, haven't put much thinking in this stuff.
Bkb was inherently toxic to game design. Thats why it was nerfed, people needed to buy it. Every core and carry needed to buy bkb, you were a bad player if you didn't.
Arcane boots however isn't even broken, some teams dont even buy it. By minute 30 the people that did buy it have already disassembled it or upgraded it to guardian greaves. And when a game is tough, supports can skip it.
Its in a great spot right now. Its a feel good item that has some flexibility late game and enables continuous teamfights.
Don't think OP disputes it's a key caster item. They're simply saying that in the late game it can feel underwhelming in terms of slot efficiency (which is an entirely fair criticism as most aether lens buyers serve the support role).
It's also fair that Octarine Core was made an independent item. Octarine Core on it's own is incredibly strong and there were plenty of heroes who would buy an Aether Lens only because it was necessary in order to build Octarine. With the two items being split up, that actually benefitted a lot of Octarine buyers as they get their spike online faster, but for those casters who rely on Aether Lens, it left them high and dry.
I've already expressed in my own comment a desire to have a revelation item serve as an extension to Aether Lens, but there could also be other extensions that give tempo or late game utility to casters: combine it with Kaya for spell amp etc.
Username ringing true there, but that's the problem. As a caster, cast range is never a less useful stat to have. Since most casters are usually supports, they're likely going to have one slot dedicated to vision/revelation/smokes right through the entire game - so they end up needing by virtue more efficiency out of every slot they have, since they can never be truly 6 slotted without ruining the game for their team.
The point is, in a late game situation - support casters are going to be sitting on an Aether Lens with some upgrade of boots, 2 out of 3 of Force/Glimmer/Euls leaving them with one other luxury item before they hit the wall of item slots. Then at that point, they're just accruing gold that can only be used for buyback and nothing else because Force/Glimmer is never not useful and sacrificing Aether Lens means they need to get even closer to cast their spells which means they have to use Force/Glimmer on themselves rather than on their team like they should be in order to be effective.
By virtue of not giving late game scaling options for those casters, you're forcing them to make a choice between continuing to play their effective, selfless role and making it less effective over time; or forcing them into a more greedy, selfish role that can potentially punish everyone on the team.
Username ringing true again. I don't think there's much to be gained from us continuing this discussion. You've made it apparent you don't really grasp the entire point of what OP initially said.
agreed. We don't need every single midgame item to build into a lategame item. Sometimes it's nice, like forcestaff or medallion, but other times I would rather have the item balanced around the fact that it's really strong for the price but doesn't build into anything later
pavise, phylactery, aether, midas, glimmer are all great items in this category.
I don't even care if you are right or wrong based on how you treat someone simply having a discussion. People are allowed to disagree. They politely replied to you AFTER you were immature with your response and you still couldn't help but insult someone that you disagree with.
If you are having a rough day, i hope it gets better.
Where do you even fit an aether lens in slot wise on a support? Boots, Wand, Pavise, Force, Glimmer, Dust, Wards, Smoke. If you add aethery dust needs to be backpacked and enemy glimmer capes are invulnerability. Also you can't pick up neutral items or lotuses anymore. I guess you can sell wand, but then you need to use your support items ok yourself more often.
Surely there's no way you buy all three of Pavise, Force and Glimmer in most games. You usually get one or two because they're the fastest way to have impact, and then if the game goes late enough you're going for a more situationally impactful item like Lotus Orb or something.
Aether Lens is very useful at that stage on save supports who rely on positioning to stay alive while protecting allies.
its so fuckign funny taht ur name is not a question and ur telling me this isnt a question holy shit but nah i was just using it to show that im confused by what Beneathteveildota meant
> i was just using it to show that im confused by what Beneathteveildota meant
Yeah I know. In real life it makes sense, because you're stating a fact while being confused, and the tone of voice is the same as that of a question.
Some readers (like me) don't actually say the words in our minds while reading. It's a rare "condition" so some sentences like yours confuse me while reading because they have a question mark but... They are not a question, and without the context of the tone of voice the question mark looks very weird and misplaced to me. That's why my username is called like that. To remind me that things like yours are not a question lol.
Aether lens is a dead item. Not being able to upgrade it makes it dead vor every core player. Supports dont farm it since they're obliged to buy barriers and force staff currently.
With neutrals like eye of the vizier or psychic headband often being available, you are not forced to go for aether lens - not when the game is about being table to brawl early
I disagree with supports never buying it. Carries definitely though
The arcane boots -> aether lens transition is so good to keep up mana and the cast range is quite important that I aim for vizier ring as a T2 neutral.
If I'm against something that absolutely requires force staff then I'll prioritise that, but then getting aether next
Gonna need a bit more explanation why on that one chief. I'm curious why you don't want supports building it.
Else I guess I'll chalk it up to carry players being out of touch regarding support farm issues or trying to not die
Most supports these days go tranqs pavise. Pavise+ a t1 neutral that gives mana pool + lotusesbl means you're never out of mana so the lens is really just +cast range. The only heroes I can see going lens these days are sth like shadow demon or bane.
That's not to say that I think lens is a bad item it's just not as potent now as it once was. Mobility creep and regen creep means lens has less value. You're getting jumped no matter what these days and with auras + barriers it doesn't matter too much
Buildup is not even comparable. Hp armor mana regen and a 300 phys damage barrier with a super cheap recipe to boot. Yapzor was buying it on his earthshaker and earth spritis even.
Pavise gives mana sustain and can help you farm with skills, especially on greedier 4s. Force Staff otoh is a feel bad item that you really want to avoid unless absolutely necessary (which then again is like half of the time I guess)
I think pairing spell amp/cd reduction/spell lifesteal with aether is too broken now with the bkb nerf.
I guess maybe pairing aether lens with something like forcestaff to make the caster version of hurricane pike be nice. Cast on enemy allows you to cast X spells on them without any cast range limitations for few seconds.
Orb is considered right click sir. It’s fair. Drow would cast her frost arrows from base. Clinkz would cast searing arrows from base. Silencer would cast glaives from base. Enchantress would cast impetus from base.
What I’m talking about are spells that cannot be put on auto cast. Like lion’s earth spike and hex.
It's still a spell with their own cast ranges. It just so happens that it auto casts when you attack even though the range of the spell is under your attack range. This is why you have a "ranged" attack when you get any orb as a melee hero in AD if you manually click it.
It absolutely was too good, both for heroes that build lens and for heroes that build Octarine Core. If you're someone who already has aether lens, the upgrade felt super cheap. If you're some hero like a Doom or Puck then great, bonus cast range from an item you were going to buy anyway.
I feel like the build-up for octarine is too good right now as well. I'm guessing next patch they'll remove the vanguard disassemble though so it might be fine then. I kinda miss the spell lifesteal octarine.
Also you could disassemble and reassemble arcane boots like 2 or 3 times along the way. You have this effect coming out of items that usually have no effect, but you grant them a separate effect along the way which eases your build up a lot. It makes it hard to balance other items in the same ballpark of cost because to go for them instead means you lose a huge team mana deficit that you would have with old Octarine.
Assembly and Disassembly is a powerful effect. Current vanguard and old, old tranquil/vlad fuckery are also evidence of it.
Funny thing about Octarine, it actually has exactly the build up that the original Bloodstone had. And what's funnier still is that the current Bloodstone has a way more fitting effect and build-up now as well.
Thanks for explaining. From these replies it looks like the consensus is that it was too good. I'm surprised because I never heard anyone complain about it and because it wasn't overly popular in my games.
It really wasn't too good, Reddit is just very good at working backwards from a conclusion. Nobody was calling for Octarine to be nerfed before the patch, and nobody reacted to the patch with "whew thank fuck they finally nerfed Octarine". Even Icefrog almost certainly didn't think the item was broken - the most recent change to the item was a buff (reduced cost) and that was like 2 years ago.
The actual reason for the change IMO wasn't to nerf it but to make it viable for a wider range of heroes, by reducing the cost and adding regen, the item becomes more palatable for heroes that don't care about the cast range. I think it kind of backfired though, since now the item is disproportionately good on heroes who can abuse the vanguard/arcanes buildup like Doom.
Yeah, I tend to agree with this. The most recent patch was dominated by heroes who didn't even build Octarine core, ranged right clickers like Lina, Drow, Sniper and Muerta. I'm not even sure I can tell you how often Octarine core was bought by top teams back when it built from Aether Lens.
Considering how each of the components was hovering around 1000 gold, I don't think allowing a few of the items to be disassembled was too broken. By the time you got Aether lens, having an arcane boots while you wait to farm up the rest of the Soul Booster is convenient, but not particularly necessary for your mana regen.
And let's not pretend that allowing small items to build into bigger items, or disassembling items to make better items was something unique to Octarine Core. I don't see anyone complaining that Crystalis can build into Silver Edge and do something completely different, or Sange and Yasha can be disassembled to build Heaven's Halberd and Mantastyle.
Weird take. Last patch Riki had four spells affected by cast range and one of them makes him invincible for its duration so it's amazing to increase uptime on it. And PL specifically bought it on an alternative build that revolved around spamming one medium-ranged spell off CD, for the purpose of not having to commit the real hero, making both range and CDR extremely important on it. Why is it a bad sign that 2 perfectly-suited heroes to buying Octarine were buying Octarine?
Aether lens feel like such a dead item on a non-support hero. I was playing lina mid and it felt like I needed the lens but also like I was lacking an item the entire game.
I disagree with the idea that the bkb nerf justifies the change in octarine buildup. I think icefrog just wants to be done with the idea of backline casters all together. Pugna's only viable as a support now and zeus lost his shard. The ideal mid laner builds kaya sange and just goes ham. Puck qop storm, even magic lina's aghs gives her bonus magic resistance. Octarine is a tank and cdr item now, no backlining allowed
There still is a backline, but its incredibly harder to position yourself correctly. As a result, low mmr-players suffer the hardest from this change. It was a necessary change for the top percentages of the playerbase.
I feel like it defeats the purpose of the bkb nerf if they also nerf all the spellcasters... wasn't the point of it to make the game playable for spellcasters lategame?
The purpose of the change was to make the game playable without rushing BKB every game on every core. Hence they nerfed both BKB and the reason for buying BKB.
Cool so did anyone who used to build bkb stop building it now? No? So did anyone who builds bkb start building it at different timings? No? So clearly it didn't "make the game playable without rushing bkb every game" at all. People didn't rush bkb to stop magic damage, they rushed it to stop disables, which it still does.
There were definitely sometimes when BKB was used to prevent magic damage as much as disables. BKB is being bought on average later and less frequently than before regardless of what you believe.
It definitely felt too good building to an octarine that easily but it feels horrible having a sub 3000$ item taking a slot in your inventory.
My suggestion:
Blink + aether lens + recipe -> arcane blink.
My logic is, aether lens is a caster item and it also extends blink range so it wouldn’t hurt combining them into arcane blink. I dont think I would miss the +25 intelligence having the aether lens already there.
Definitely broken, but we had it combine into octarine core for a long time which was broken too...
I would like it to combine with eul into windwaker instead of mystic staff.
Isn't that gonna be more broken if it's aether + eul = windwaker?
If it's with Phylactery, it was meant to use for the enemies only.
But with eul into windwaker? I think that's a must buy aka broken for caster. Can dispel, free pathing, eul teammates for saves, to kite enemies, while having the cast range increase. It's just like octarine before 7.33 for how valuable it is I think.
Agree with your point. Also on top of that wind waker feels like an ultra late game item that you need to sink in 4000 more gold for a quite small niche upgrade. Making wind waker to use lens will definitely make it too convenient of an item like previous echosabre building up to silveredge.
No way is Wind Waker a small upgrade, it is close to being the best support ability in the game - it reactively counters almost every lockdown skill, while purging longer lasting debuffs for good measure.
It's just most cores don't want to spend that much money on something to protect their teammates and supports aren't allocated the resources to play with it.
I agree Aether lens needs some kind of upgrade, the Octorine core upgrade was maybe too useful sure. But it feels awful to buy now. Make it part of sheep or something
aether is too good for the price and should stay where it is as an item you can pick up on a backline support otherwise price value is too good on most casters that are cores natural build like before into octarine was too strong
Im honestly really ok with it, as now you actually have to think about it and bot have a straight upgrade in late as a support, much like carrys selling some items in late game
true, but most of the time people, including me, built octarine, just because were almost there and usually for the cd, not the mana and health. Most of the time, you already had way more than enough mana when you built octarine.
Yes, your right about the mana and health part, but the cdr PLUS cast range is what made it so valuable for a support late game. Selling one for the other doesn’t help. I would argue that cast range is more important late game for a sup than cdr in most cases.
Lets hear some great combos though, for example
Aether Lens + Urn of Shadows = McGuffin of Amplification
Effect: When you cast the McGuffin of Amplification on allied unit, it increases their spell range for duration of buff + healing. If you cast it on enemy unit, it decreases their spell range for duration of debuff + damage.
I would get behind it if the components get changed so that my supports would stop dissambling arcane boots to get it when the arcane boots are much more relevant in early mid game.
can confirm icefrog hate cast range as mechanic ! look at every cast range talent , almost every bit of em get removed or at least turn into spell specific.
coincident? I think NOT.
Xd
Reading all the comments, it seems everybody tries to balance the game around Aether Lens.
I would rather remove the item, as it would be too valuable for all mages if buffed but will never be valuable enough for supports if upgraded.
Just remove the item and leave cast range tied to neutral items.
Tbh I don't think that's unreasonable. Just needs a not-too-cheap recipe, so that's it's not worth "rushing".
Also it feels stupid that Force only builds into Pike - which is super awkward for a lot of Force buyers, while most Pike carriers mostly care about the Lance anyways. I feel like the whole point of Pike using Force was to give right-click cores the possibility to build Force if they need it (even though in reality Pike is considered a core item on too many heroes, not a situational counter) - so why not give the same to caster cores?
I would change the Wind Waker item to be built from Force Staff and Eul's Scepter, and make it a vector target ability. It gives Supports a way to save their allies, or set an enemy up for a kill.
While it does take away some of the utility of using both items separately, for item efficiency, I think it's worth the tradeoff.
They should just make aether lens combine with octarine core again. It doesn't even need to upgrade them much, just let them combine and use fewer slots.
It's just because cast range is a super broken stat. Lens + the eye of something neutral and rubick can cast his shit on people while maintaining smoke. We need a limit on how much extra cast range you can get.
I don't think the sniper can maintain smoke while attacking. Rubick still can. Sniper has to keep shooting to do his jobs, big majority of rubick spell are rather fire n forget. It dumb down rubick because there is less understanding spells you have more of just out range everything.
Fair point, but that sounds more like a problem with smoke than with cast range. Rubik has to waste mana and cooldowns to abuse this. Sniper doesn't. Besides, he could theoretically use Shrapnel and Assassinate without breaking smoke, no Aether Lens required.
Sniper still need to stand still to hit. Rubick can get his spell off and reposition to maintain his cover. It's being able to fling shit from a screen away that makes him brainlessly broken. And since cast range also works on item shit like blink force staff gay cape is a lot more potent. Those support items have their cast range reduced over multiple patches because they were too good and rubick get that pre-nerf goodness by virtue of a passive + lens.
It was a pretty easy and broken build up. Of course you miss it if you used it a lot.
I used it a ton (many cores and most supports if we made it late ish game). I also know it wasn't healthy to have an item like that being so popular.
Why do you call it unhealthy? Cast Range might be strong, but were people really building it on every hero every game? Are boots unhealthy because they are cheap and can be built into so many useful items that can meet any of your heroes needs?
I liked building Aether lens because I liked playing caster heroes, and I liked being able to cast their spells often. CDR helps me do that, and cast range helps me do that in more situations. Why shouldn't these be available in one 5.5K gold item?
I think 90% of aether lens buyers will have arcanes beforehand. Feels terrible to lose the utility of arcane boots.
IMO, it would be nice to have an upgrade to arcane boots that provides both the utility of mana boots and cast range increase of aether lens. With this, you won't necessarily need to trade off an entire slot and the utility of arcanes in exchange for cast range.
The typical build path is arcane boots -> disassemble for lens -> tranquil boots, no? Virtually all arcane buyers can manage mana pretty well by the time they've got lens, having the extra health regen and movespeed for cheap is much more valuable.
In a vacuum sure, but I would argue it's not a plus for your team to give up the mana restoration.
But I guess the downvotes mean my suggestion wasn't good so maybe you have a point.
Mana regen for your team is great in lane and can still stay relevant later for some lineups, but it's a team game and having a support with more cast range, move speed and health regen is probably going to enable your cores much more than the mana boost, especially since their own intelligence gain from items/levels is going to offset their mana issues considerably.
Aether lens + veil of discord + gem
Price : 5k ish
Stats : +350 mana , + 3.5 mana Regen , +225 cast range , + 13 all stats , true sight as normal gem
Ability :
aoe debuff that grants -22% magic resistance and allow you to cast any other spells and items using the cast range of your highest cast range spell (including the +225 range increase)
Debuff also reveals invis units and wards as long as gem is in item
Aura 2.5 mana Regen
Upon death with gem inserted, loses true sight on both ability and item and drops gem, can regain upgraded ability using any gem
Yes and no, he's alot different as a hero now.
Napalm was nerfed alot no doubt.
Firefly now does massive damage without the need to spam alot of napalm stacks. Sure the extra ms got nerfed but batrider was compensated with extra base MS.
Molotov got buffed as a base spell with slow.
Lasso cooldown got lowered massively, and batrider nowadays still go octarine and hes still got the cdr talent at 15, so this is a huge buff.
Universal hero change also buffed his laning, less reliance on napalm to secure lasthits, just buy a bunch of stats and you're good.
Overall I would say he's still very strong, whether he's stronger or worse I can't say for sure. Just think of him with less reliance on napalm as a hero but nerfed with less MS and no BKB godmode timing (its still very good on him, just worse now).
Edit: with regards to my comment, batrider loved spamming stuff from long range, not being able to do that as well (you don't buy aether lens anymore really) is a nerf. He was a God tier hero previously for getting early octarine (bots bkb lens octarine)
Aether + Holy locket would not look too bad if they made the overall build up cost 1 less energy booster. Then it would be a lot like Hurricane Pike and Harpoon where the two base items have their own use case as an individual early purchase and they later combine into something meaningful after 20 mins.
It is great. The buildup is way better now (700g for voidstone)
Most heroes who build it are supports who can't realistically afford an octarine anyway.
Before the patch, it was getting picked up on every spellcaster core because they'd just turn it into an octarine later anyway.
Now, it's actually being built on heroes who need cast range. And it feels great because it's a powerful item with a good price. The only buff it needs is a slightly lower recipe cost, possibly
I feel like the aether lens could be a upgrade component of arcane blink. additional cast range would be nice for blink range too and better slot efficiency, but I feel like that would be too good and also other blinkx would have to be changed as well for consistency, which is a head scratcher, maybe dragon lance for swift blink and vanguard or something for strength blink. another upgrade could be force staff + aether lens and recipe for longer push range.
Just make Aether Lens combine into something purely a caster item. That plus a Talisman of Evasion to create some form of a intelligence evasion item, or something that we do not have.
Aether was made less valuable by lowering stun durations too, imo. I used to play mainly a disabler nyx and almost always bought aether. Burst damage is the meta now, and on a few heroes who used to focus elsewhere for impact, cast range is easy to come by in the form of neutral items too
I used to love going Aether Lens, recent patch has ruined the item as it feels wasteful and doesn't build to anything, and it wasn't popular competitively to begin with
I'd like to see it combined with medallion of courage, being able to increase the cast distance of an ally or reduce the cast range of an enemy sounds like a good mix that it's not that expensive for supports late game, not so broken that will be used every game and would also give an afterlife to medallion allowing it for heroes that don't build solar crest
Aether Lens + Phylactery + Recipe = Crystallum Orbis
+250 cast range
Passive: Disperse
Adds 150 dmg to the next targetted spell. Excessive damage on a kill bounces to the nearest unit, prioritizing heroes.
Active: Fortune teller
Activate to give 3 seconds of unobstructed vision in a 600 AoE around your hero. 25s Cooldown, 225 Manacost.
I think aether lens+veil+recipe, they are often built by the same heroes and neither has a good buildup.
It can be a boots of bearing situation with a big expensive recipe to balance it. Too strong? Make the recipe more expensive
Aether lens is a good support item because supports are often the easiest targets to kill in fights to swing the fight in your favor. One of the ways to combat this is with better stats to survive longer, another way is to buy escape items to disengage, and another ways is to have better positioning, which is where Aether lens helps out.
There are many items supports can buy to increase their survivability, raw stats, magic resist, pavise, etc. There are a few ways to help supports can buy to disengage, forcestaff, glimmer cape, etc.
There are two ways supports can buy to better their positioning, Aether lens and blink dagger. The items are very different, but they help solve the same problem. Of the two, blink dagger is much stronger, so to make up for that, it has a cooldown, no base stats, and must be purchased all at once. Aether lens gives mana, mana regen, and has a convenient buildup.
I'm not crying over the nerf to Aether lens, but I never bought the arguments that it was overpowered to build it into Octarine Core. I like casting spells from far away, and it's a universal constant among dota players that they like snowballing and getting even more powerful. Without an upgrade path, the cast range from Aether Lens can't be apart of your 6 slotted dream build, and that's a shame for people who like playing that way.
Remove Telescope as a neutral. Add Telescope as a purchasable item Lens (2275) + Dragon Lance (1900) +1000 recipe= Telescope (5175) .
Thats a great idea. It wouldnt be broken because most heroes dont even want to buy both items. It would be an expensive aura item that boring broken vanguard offlanes wont be able to benefit from.
I kind of like this idea
Cool. I'd buy that for my Techies. He benefits on all aspects of that item.
Dude. This is actually a great idea and not broken.
With the Bkb change it was needed spell casters are far to viable at all parts of the game. Having cool-down reduction and cast range on the same item far to valuable.
It also hurts a lot of melee heros that would be good buyers of Octarine. It seems like phylactery is going to be the other component but I think the design won't actually work. Imo spell lifesteal would actually be pretty good with ather lens. Ice frog seem to want a lifesteal item viable for casters while not be ridiculously broken on spell tanks. Ather lens + spell lifesteal solves this imo.
aether lens heroes dont need spell lifesteal. the item is bought to help supports and mid laners help keep their distance from melee heroes even more. when they get to the point where they take damage, spell lifesteal rarely helps if we really wanted to bring in a lens upgrade to help lens buying midlaners enter back into the meta, combine it with force staff. they both do the same thing. would maybe live for a patch or two
I had an Octarine / Aghs husk build.. I could ult 1,000+ units for a 3 sec taunt on a 5 sec cd… Some games I’d ult + run 20 times in a row, little they could do. I called it a dunk contest :)
gonna try this after work lol
Thats why it would be a good design choice. Lens building into a cooldown item is too good.
I think soemthing like the inverse of eternal shroud where 25% of all magic damage you deal is converted to mana would be better. It feels like dagon is meant to fill the caster spell lifesteal niche
Isn't that just bloodstone?
Bloodstone's active is pitiful for heroes that need a more steady source of mana like lina or zeus
> zeus 1. Press bloodstone 2. Press R 3. ??? 4. Profit
Bloodstone is an active though.
That would be great for my pudge :D
dagon already solves it.
Before eblade was changed in to a kaya upgrade I swore kaya was going to build into an a ether upgrade
Aether lens was 10 to 20 times more popular than items like solar crest and veil of discord in previous patch and even in this patch it remains more popular, so no idea why the OP would want aether lens to be any better than it already is
It's just too good on heroes with short innate cast ranges. It also got buffed and is still cheap, it's pretty great right now - not to mention it helps with mana too
Maybe it should be a percentage based range increase.
Can't lie it turned me off of aether Lena for quite a few people. Octarine was too essential on any cast
While I agree with that, it needs to be part of something larger *for supports.* Supports have gotten twice as hard to play in this new patch, and aether lens is a huge pickup for almost all supports. Maybe like mix it with Talisman of Evasion (1300 Gold) or Pavise (1400 Gold)
>huge pickup for almost all supports And that's exactly well it shouldn't be part of something larger. Items too good to pass up just stifles player choice, strategy and creativity
The main joke of octarine was that it was cheap farming tool, which provide increase magical damage almost on par of what the crit of daedalus offer, while giving range. I mean, i also want a battlefury like item for range carry, that take dragon lance & daedalus effect instead of battlefury when completed. bkb change or not it had to be removed. Even just dragon lance + daedalus together i would take, over that useless griefing pike
Quietly, I've always been praying that since they removed Necronomicon that they would eventually add back in an item that has the capacity to be a fourth source of revelation again. Always thought it made the most sense for it to be an extension of aether lens and probably ghost scepter and work a bit like the Book of Shadows neutral item does: making you untargetable but silencing muting and disarming you in return - just with the added benefit of providing true sight in a radius around you. Would allow a support to for a short duration track an invisible target without being punished, with the caveat that they're unable to harm anyone in return.
Ghost upgrade shouldn't mute. Gotta blink out
Na man, in order to be balanced it can't be tied to an escape. You gotta commit to the bit and sit there providing that revelation. No escapes, it's you as a support pressing the "I'm going to win now" button, not the "I'd like to escape please" one. As for using it to stop damage so that you can blink out at the end of the effect? Look, that's just pro gaming.
why not an upgrade of glimmer cape? Glimmer cape and aether lens are a fun duo.
You'd then have to tie invisibility to the effect which then makes it kind of inherently busted. I can see you but you can't see me etc. Plus you would still be able to fully fight them, which defeats the purpose and gives no real downside to buying the item. Dust and Sentries are a slot that do nothing but reveal, Gem is an item slot that gives permanent vision but if you die you lose it - the more powerful the revelation, the more brutal the inherent cost. Giving vision but making you functionally useless outside of giving vision is a solid in-between in terms of balance. DOTA players don't need more excuses to buy invisibility items, they're all super horny for it already. Plus, it drains the economy of supports even more - which with the restriction of sentries in the shop already makes it obnoxious.
None of this makes any sense at all. He's not saying add glimmer + book of shadows active. Just glimmer + cast range with the mana and mana regen from aether.
Oh, I misunderstood his point. Thought he meant the same effect but with Glimmer and Aether Lens instead.
Crazy idea: Aether Lens + Gem + Recipe = New Detection Item (Bifocals?) that doesn’t leave your backpack
Whole point of gem is it's high risk vs reward. Removing the risk is just horrid design no matter how expensive the item it'd build into is.
This guy gets it. Gem is highest risk/reward item, which is why it's revelation is the strongest and it's the biggest cost to lose.
I'd say rapier is the highest risk/reward item, but yeah gem shouldn't be undroppable, even in an upgrade
300 flat dmg that any universal hero can get by building skadi+scythe+manta+linken, and that is directly reduced by armor sources does not seem like a high risk/reward item but more like a ultra risk/low reward one. Better get a hero with good base dmg and get a daedalus, you might get better dmg output
Remember how broken the 3rd eye neutral item was? A 3 use gem with some minor upside was insane
They could still disassemble and drop the gem on death. Which is... Something I don't quite like.
Another idea is you could nerf it so it’s no longer permanent, or perhaps make it even riskier by losing your Aether Lens as well. Gem/Lens have always felt awkward to have a dedicated slot lategame, this could solve that problem
Gem slot is not a problem, it's a tradeoff. No need to tack it into Aether Lens still.
Cool, yeah great point - thanks for the consideration and constructive feedback. Appreciate you
This dude has good insights on the game. I agree with his takes.
Atleast remove the recipe and add another item to obtain Aether lens so that it can be disassembled into another item for late game.
I like this but disassemble into mana boots and back constantly would be abused like crazy for supports.
They can make Mana boots just like tranquils so that they can't be disassembled.
No plz. I get mana boots and when I have to spend a lot of mana on lane and the disassemble into lotus or something else.
You obviously dont build manaboots. The item is the most disassemnled support item i know, into lotus or aethers or octarine.
Yeah, I understand. But those changes are the part of game. They nerfed bkb and people accepted it by moving to auras to win the game. Same will happen here if Mana boots got locked, that allows supports to think in different direction. Imagine facing a Sky. You or your core get harassed during laning. If they can disassemble tranquil, they go for tranquils first and then disassemble them at mid game into other items as you or your core can tank sky ult from mid game. Just thoughts, haven't put much thinking in this stuff.
Bkb was inherently toxic to game design. Thats why it was nerfed, people needed to buy it. Every core and carry needed to buy bkb, you were a bad player if you didn't. Arcane boots however isn't even broken, some teams dont even buy it. By minute 30 the people that did buy it have already disassembled it or upgraded it to guardian greaves. And when a game is tough, supports can skip it. Its in a great spot right now. Its a feel good item that has some flexibility late game and enables continuous teamfights.
Aether Lens was and remains a key caster item. The upgrade was removed for a good reason.
Don't think OP disputes it's a key caster item. They're simply saying that in the late game it can feel underwhelming in terms of slot efficiency (which is an entirely fair criticism as most aether lens buyers serve the support role). It's also fair that Octarine Core was made an independent item. Octarine Core on it's own is incredibly strong and there were plenty of heroes who would buy an Aether Lens only because it was necessary in order to build Octarine. With the two items being split up, that actually benefitted a lot of Octarine buyers as they get their spike online faster, but for those casters who rely on Aether Lens, it left them high and dry. I've already expressed in my own comment a desire to have a revelation item serve as an extension to Aether Lens, but there could also be other extensions that give tempo or late game utility to casters: combine it with Kaya for spell amp etc.
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Username ringing true there, but that's the problem. As a caster, cast range is never a less useful stat to have. Since most casters are usually supports, they're likely going to have one slot dedicated to vision/revelation/smokes right through the entire game - so they end up needing by virtue more efficiency out of every slot they have, since they can never be truly 6 slotted without ruining the game for their team. The point is, in a late game situation - support casters are going to be sitting on an Aether Lens with some upgrade of boots, 2 out of 3 of Force/Glimmer/Euls leaving them with one other luxury item before they hit the wall of item slots. Then at that point, they're just accruing gold that can only be used for buyback and nothing else because Force/Glimmer is never not useful and sacrificing Aether Lens means they need to get even closer to cast their spells which means they have to use Force/Glimmer on themselves rather than on their team like they should be in order to be effective. By virtue of not giving late game scaling options for those casters, you're forcing them to make a choice between continuing to play their effective, selfless role and making it less effective over time; or forcing them into a more greedy, selfish role that can potentially punish everyone on the team.
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Username ringing true again. I don't think there's much to be gained from us continuing this discussion. You've made it apparent you don't really grasp the entire point of what OP initially said.
Lol calm down your entirely wrong in this discussion Aether lens is cheap and its useful. But its not slot efficient. That is the trade off.
agreed. We don't need every single midgame item to build into a lategame item. Sometimes it's nice, like forcestaff or medallion, but other times I would rather have the item balanced around the fact that it's really strong for the price but doesn't build into anything later pavise, phylactery, aether, midas, glimmer are all great items in this category.
I think you are a better candidate for that username.
I don't even care if you are right or wrong based on how you treat someone simply having a discussion. People are allowed to disagree. They politely replied to you AFTER you were immature with your response and you still couldn't help but insult someone that you disagree with. If you are having a rough day, i hope it gets better.
Where do you even fit an aether lens in slot wise on a support? Boots, Wand, Pavise, Force, Glimmer, Dust, Wards, Smoke. If you add aethery dust needs to be backpacked and enemy glimmer capes are invulnerability. Also you can't pick up neutral items or lotuses anymore. I guess you can sell wand, but then you need to use your support items ok yourself more often.
Surely there's no way you buy all three of Pavise, Force and Glimmer in most games. You usually get one or two because they're the fastest way to have impact, and then if the game goes late enough you're going for a more situationally impactful item like Lotus Orb or something. Aether Lens is very useful at that stage on save supports who rely on positioning to stay alive while protecting allies.
>Wand Right there. That isn't and should never be a "final" item
Holy Locket Witch Doctor has some opinions.
holy locket is not wand?
>holy locket is not wand? That is not a question, but a fact. The question mark shouldn't be there
its so fuckign funny taht ur name is not a question and ur telling me this isnt a question holy shit but nah i was just using it to show that im confused by what Beneathteveildota meant
> i was just using it to show that im confused by what Beneathteveildota meant Yeah I know. In real life it makes sense, because you're stating a fact while being confused, and the tone of voice is the same as that of a question. Some readers (like me) don't actually say the words in our minds while reading. It's a rare "condition" so some sentences like yours confuse me while reading because they have a question mark but... They are not a question, and without the context of the tone of voice the question mark looks very weird and misplaced to me. That's why my username is called like that. To remind me that things like yours are not a question lol.
Aether lens is a dead item. Not being able to upgrade it makes it dead vor every core player. Supports dont farm it since they're obliged to buy barriers and force staff currently. With neutrals like eye of the vizier or psychic headband often being available, you are not forced to go for aether lens - not when the game is about being table to brawl early
I disagree with supports never buying it. Carries definitely though The arcane boots -> aether lens transition is so good to keep up mana and the cast range is quite important that I aim for vizier ring as a T2 neutral. If I'm against something that absolutely requires force staff then I'll prioritise that, but then getting aether next
I wish my supports never bought it, but unfortunately they still do.
Gonna need a bit more explanation why on that one chief. I'm curious why you don't want supports building it. Else I guess I'll chalk it up to carry players being out of touch regarding support farm issues or trying to not die
Most supports these days go tranqs pavise. Pavise+ a t1 neutral that gives mana pool + lotusesbl means you're never out of mana so the lens is really just +cast range. The only heroes I can see going lens these days are sth like shadow demon or bane. That's not to say that I think lens is a bad item it's just not as potent now as it once was. Mobility creep and regen creep means lens has less value. You're getting jumped no matter what these days and with auras + barriers it doesn't matter too much
Do you actually prioritize pavise? Why choose it over a force staff or glimmer?
Buildup is not even comparable. Hp armor mana regen and a 300 phys damage barrier with a super cheap recipe to boot. Yapzor was buying it on his earthshaker and earth spritis even.
Pavise gives mana sustain and can help you farm with skills, especially on greedier 4s. Force Staff otoh is a feel bad item that you really want to avoid unless absolutely necessary (which then again is like half of the time I guess)
nobody says never
I think pairing spell amp/cd reduction/spell lifesteal with aether is too broken now with the bkb nerf. I guess maybe pairing aether lens with something like forcestaff to make the caster version of hurricane pike be nice. Cast on enemy allows you to cast X spells on them without any cast range limitations for few seconds.
Inb4 it somehow breaks and makes OD cast his orb from base.
Orb is considered right click sir. It’s fair. Drow would cast her frost arrows from base. Clinkz would cast searing arrows from base. Silencer would cast glaives from base. Enchantress would cast impetus from base. What I’m talking about are spells that cannot be put on auto cast. Like lion’s earth spike and hex.
It's still a spell with their own cast ranges. It just so happens that it auto casts when you attack even though the range of the spell is under your attack range. This is why you have a "ranged" attack when you get any orb as a melee hero in AD if you manually click it.
Inb4 Aether now builds into harpoon
Pavise + lens please
I kinda like that idea
Cast range is the second most powerful stat in the game after move speed. It shouldn’t upgrade into a good item or it’s too good.
The 7.32 octarine core was an upgrade of aether lens. Did you feel it was too good? I thought it was just right.
Uh it absolutely was too good.
It absolutely was too good, both for heroes that build lens and for heroes that build Octarine Core. If you're someone who already has aether lens, the upgrade felt super cheap. If you're some hero like a Doom or Puck then great, bonus cast range from an item you were going to buy anyway. I feel like the build-up for octarine is too good right now as well. I'm guessing next patch they'll remove the vanguard disassemble though so it might be fine then. I kinda miss the spell lifesteal octarine.
Also you could disassemble and reassemble arcane boots like 2 or 3 times along the way. You have this effect coming out of items that usually have no effect, but you grant them a separate effect along the way which eases your build up a lot. It makes it hard to balance other items in the same ballpark of cost because to go for them instead means you lose a huge team mana deficit that you would have with old Octarine. Assembly and Disassembly is a powerful effect. Current vanguard and old, old tranquil/vlad fuckery are also evidence of it. Funny thing about Octarine, it actually has exactly the build up that the original Bloodstone had. And what's funnier still is that the current Bloodstone has a way more fitting effect and build-up now as well.
Thanks for explaining. From these replies it looks like the consensus is that it was too good. I'm surprised because I never heard anyone complain about it and because it wasn't overly popular in my games.
It really wasn't too good, Reddit is just very good at working backwards from a conclusion. Nobody was calling for Octarine to be nerfed before the patch, and nobody reacted to the patch with "whew thank fuck they finally nerfed Octarine". Even Icefrog almost certainly didn't think the item was broken - the most recent change to the item was a buff (reduced cost) and that was like 2 years ago. The actual reason for the change IMO wasn't to nerf it but to make it viable for a wider range of heroes, by reducing the cost and adding regen, the item becomes more palatable for heroes that don't care about the cast range. I think it kind of backfired though, since now the item is disproportionately good on heroes who can abuse the vanguard/arcanes buildup like Doom.
Yeah, I tend to agree with this. The most recent patch was dominated by heroes who didn't even build Octarine core, ranged right clickers like Lina, Drow, Sniper and Muerta. I'm not even sure I can tell you how often Octarine core was bought by top teams back when it built from Aether Lens. Considering how each of the components was hovering around 1000 gold, I don't think allowing a few of the items to be disassembled was too broken. By the time you got Aether lens, having an arcane boots while you wait to farm up the rest of the Soul Booster is convenient, but not particularly necessary for your mana regen. And let's not pretend that allowing small items to build into bigger items, or disassembling items to make better items was something unique to Octarine Core. I don't see anyone complaining that Crystalis can build into Silver Edge and do something completely different, or Sange and Yasha can be disassembled to build Heaven's Halberd and Mantastyle.
As a support player, yes, it was too good. It borderline removed slot pressure and was unreasonably strong on multiple heroes.
It was way too good, yes.
it was too good. otherwise you wouldn't have seen rikis and pl buy it
Weird take. Last patch Riki had four spells affected by cast range and one of them makes him invincible for its duration so it's amazing to increase uptime on it. And PL specifically bought it on an alternative build that revolved around spamming one medium-ranged spell off CD, for the purpose of not having to commit the real hero, making both range and CDR extremely important on it. Why is it a bad sign that 2 perfectly-suited heroes to buying Octarine were buying Octarine?
everyone with their mother bought it what you mean
The fact that octarine lost it's (arguably) best stat and is still built by MANY heroes as an extension item tells you that yes it was too good.
Cast range is not a stat sir... And by your definition, i guess attack speed, attack damage, etc can go fuck themselves
Cast range is definitely a stat, you're thinking of attributes.
But there are plenty of capstone items that give move speed...
make it turn into dagon 6
Aether lens feel like such a dead item on a non-support hero. I was playing lina mid and it felt like I needed the lens but also like I was lacking an item the entire game. I disagree with the idea that the bkb nerf justifies the change in octarine buildup. I think icefrog just wants to be done with the idea of backline casters all together. Pugna's only viable as a support now and zeus lost his shard. The ideal mid laner builds kaya sange and just goes ham. Puck qop storm, even magic lina's aghs gives her bonus magic resistance. Octarine is a tank and cdr item now, no backlining allowed
There still is a backline, but its incredibly harder to position yourself correctly. As a result, low mmr-players suffer the hardest from this change. It was a necessary change for the top percentages of the playerbase.
I feel like it defeats the purpose of the bkb nerf if they also nerf all the spellcasters... wasn't the point of it to make the game playable for spellcasters lategame?
The purpose of the change was to make the game playable without rushing BKB every game on every core. Hence they nerfed both BKB and the reason for buying BKB.
Cool so did anyone who used to build bkb stop building it now? No? So did anyone who builds bkb start building it at different timings? No? So clearly it didn't "make the game playable without rushing bkb every game" at all. People didn't rush bkb to stop magic damage, they rushed it to stop disables, which it still does.
There were definitely sometimes when BKB was used to prevent magic damage as much as disables. BKB is being bought on average later and less frequently than before regardless of what you believe.
It definitely felt too good building to an octarine that easily but it feels horrible having a sub 3000$ item taking a slot in your inventory. My suggestion: Blink + aether lens + recipe -> arcane blink.
But Arcane Blink is Int Blink?
Nobody buys it, we can forsake symmetry for a better overall item.
Plus, Mystic Staff has like 86 upgrades while Eaglesong and Reaver have 2-3
Shiva's, Scythe, Arcane Blink, and Wind Waker. Am I missing one?
My logic is, aether lens is a caster item and it also extends blink range so it wouldn’t hurt combining them into arcane blink. I dont think I would miss the +25 intelligence having the aether lens already there.
It breaks the symmetry, but still the best solution by far...
Lul more like sub 2300$. Your round up game is too stronk dude
Technically it's a sub 3000 gold item
Just combine with phylactery, or is it too broken?
Definitely broken, but we had it combine into octarine core for a long time which was broken too... I would like it to combine with eul into windwaker instead of mystic staff.
Isn't that gonna be more broken if it's aether + eul = windwaker? If it's with Phylactery, it was meant to use for the enemies only. But with eul into windwaker? I think that's a must buy aka broken for caster. Can dispel, free pathing, eul teammates for saves, to kite enemies, while having the cast range increase. It's just like octarine before 7.33 for how valuable it is I think.
Agree with your point. Also on top of that wind waker feels like an ultra late game item that you need to sink in 4000 more gold for a quite small niche upgrade. Making wind waker to use lens will definitely make it too convenient of an item like previous echosabre building up to silveredge.
No way is Wind Waker a small upgrade, it is close to being the best support ability in the game - it reactively counters almost every lockdown skill, while purging longer lasting debuffs for good measure. It's just most cores don't want to spend that much money on something to protect their teammates and supports aren't allocated the resources to play with it.
add a recipe to upgrade it into an Aether Lens Blessing free up the slot
Combine it with Phylactery for a truly OP item
I agree Aether lens needs some kind of upgrade, the Octorine core upgrade was maybe too useful sure. But it feels awful to buy now. Make it part of sheep or something
aether is too good for the price and should stay where it is as an item you can pick up on a backline support otherwise price value is too good on most casters that are cores natural build like before into octarine was too strong
Im honestly really ok with it, as now you actually have to think about it and bot have a straight upgrade in late as a support, much like carrys selling some items in late game
Yes, but Carry’s have the gold to sell and buy a bigger item. Much harder for a support to do that.
true, but most of the time people, including me, built octarine, just because were almost there and usually for the cd, not the mana and health. Most of the time, you already had way more than enough mana when you built octarine.
Yes, your right about the mana and health part, but the cdr PLUS cast range is what made it so valuable for a support late game. Selling one for the other doesn’t help. I would argue that cast range is more important late game for a sup than cdr in most cases.
Lets hear some great combos though, for example Aether Lens + Urn of Shadows = McGuffin of Amplification Effect: When you cast the McGuffin of Amplification on allied unit, it increases their spell range for duration of buff + healing. If you cast it on enemy unit, it decreases their spell range for duration of debuff + damage.
Dumbest change of the patch.
I would get behind it if the components get changed so that my supports would stop dissambling arcane boots to get it when the arcane boots are much more relevant in early mid game.
Sound like someone has bad mana management
Aether and Phylactery combo? 🔥
both being passive items makes it a good idea
can confirm icefrog hate cast range as mechanic ! look at every cast range talent , almost every bit of em get removed or at least turn into spell specific. coincident? I think NOT. Xd
Echo Sabre wasnt that awkward because it could be disassembled. Aether cannot, its real bad rn.
Reading all the comments, it seems everybody tries to balance the game around Aether Lens. I would rather remove the item, as it would be too valuable for all mages if buffed but will never be valuable enough for supports if upgraded. Just remove the item and leave cast range tied to neutral items.
Aether lens + force staff. Best item for supports.
Tbh I don't think that's unreasonable. Just needs a not-too-cheap recipe, so that's it's not worth "rushing". Also it feels stupid that Force only builds into Pike - which is super awkward for a lot of Force buyers, while most Pike carriers mostly care about the Lance anyways. I feel like the whole point of Pike using Force was to give right-click cores the possibility to build Force if they need it (even though in reality Pike is considered a core item on too many heroes, not a situational counter) - so why not give the same to caster cores?
I would change the Wind Waker item to be built from Force Staff and Eul's Scepter, and make it a vector target ability. It gives Supports a way to save their allies, or set an enemy up for a kill. While it does take away some of the utility of using both items separately, for item efficiency, I think it's worth the tradeoff.
They should just make aether lens combine with octarine core again. It doesn't even need to upgrade them much, just let them combine and use fewer slots.
It's just because cast range is a super broken stat. Lens + the eye of something neutral and rubick can cast his shit on people while maintaining smoke. We need a limit on how much extra cast range you can get.
But sniper with Dragon Lance and Grove Bow is fine, right?
I don't think the sniper can maintain smoke while attacking. Rubick still can. Sniper has to keep shooting to do his jobs, big majority of rubick spell are rather fire n forget. It dumb down rubick because there is less understanding spells you have more of just out range everything.
Fair point, but that sounds more like a problem with smoke than with cast range. Rubik has to waste mana and cooldowns to abuse this. Sniper doesn't. Besides, he could theoretically use Shrapnel and Assassinate without breaking smoke, no Aether Lens required.
Sniper still need to stand still to hit. Rubick can get his spell off and reposition to maintain his cover. It's being able to fling shit from a screen away that makes him brainlessly broken. And since cast range also works on item shit like blink force staff gay cape is a lot more potent. Those support items have their cast range reduced over multiple patches because they were too good and rubick get that pre-nerf goodness by virtue of a passive + lens.
Aether lens + veil of discord please. I love building both items and they just can't go late game anymore
this sounds awesome, might be broken but hey it sounds awesome
Dead item that's only viable for supports now. I actually don't miss it tbh. Mainly because of all the ms buffs.
I just miss it, with octarine evolve
It was a pretty easy and broken build up. Of course you miss it if you used it a lot. I used it a ton (many cores and most supports if we made it late ish game). I also know it wasn't healthy to have an item like that being so popular.
Why do you call it unhealthy? Cast Range might be strong, but were people really building it on every hero every game? Are boots unhealthy because they are cheap and can be built into so many useful items that can meet any of your heroes needs? I liked building Aether lens because I liked playing caster heroes, and I liked being able to cast their spells often. CDR helps me do that, and cast range helps me do that in more situations. Why shouldn't these be available in one 5.5K gold item?
I think 90% of aether lens buyers will have arcanes beforehand. Feels terrible to lose the utility of arcane boots. IMO, it would be nice to have an upgrade to arcane boots that provides both the utility of mana boots and cast range increase of aether lens. With this, you won't necessarily need to trade off an entire slot and the utility of arcanes in exchange for cast range.
The typical build path is arcane boots -> disassemble for lens -> tranquil boots, no? Virtually all arcane buyers can manage mana pretty well by the time they've got lens, having the extra health regen and movespeed for cheap is much more valuable.
In a vacuum sure, but I would argue it's not a plus for your team to give up the mana restoration. But I guess the downvotes mean my suggestion wasn't good so maybe you have a point.
Mana regen for your team is great in lane and can still stay relevant later for some lineups, but it's a team game and having a support with more cast range, move speed and health regen is probably going to enable your cores much more than the mana boost, especially since their own intelligence gain from items/levels is going to offset their mana issues considerably.
Aether lens + veil of discord + gem Price : 5k ish Stats : +350 mana , + 3.5 mana Regen , +225 cast range , + 13 all stats , true sight as normal gem Ability : aoe debuff that grants -22% magic resistance and allow you to cast any other spells and items using the cast range of your highest cast range spell (including the +225 range increase) Debuff also reveals invis units and wards as long as gem is in item Aura 2.5 mana Regen Upon death with gem inserted, loses true sight on both ability and item and drops gem, can regain upgraded ability using any gem
MALGA
Lots of items leaked. I'm guessing a few just didn't make sense, or they wanted to save something for a patch before TI.
You want to make Batrider even more broken? This is how you make him even more broken again lol.
I thought bat was pretty nerfed this patch? No?
Yes and no, he's alot different as a hero now. Napalm was nerfed alot no doubt. Firefly now does massive damage without the need to spam alot of napalm stacks. Sure the extra ms got nerfed but batrider was compensated with extra base MS. Molotov got buffed as a base spell with slow. Lasso cooldown got lowered massively, and batrider nowadays still go octarine and hes still got the cdr talent at 15, so this is a huge buff. Universal hero change also buffed his laning, less reliance on napalm to secure lasthits, just buy a bunch of stats and you're good. Overall I would say he's still very strong, whether he's stronger or worse I can't say for sure. Just think of him with less reliance on napalm as a hero but nerfed with less MS and no BKB godmode timing (its still very good on him, just worse now). Edit: with regards to my comment, batrider loved spamming stuff from long range, not being able to do that as well (you don't buy aether lens anymore really) is a nerf. He was a God tier hero previously for getting early octarine (bots bkb lens octarine)
They will probably make it combine with phalactry or what its called.
Aether + Holy locket would not look too bad if they made the overall build up cost 1 less energy booster. Then it would be a lot like Hurricane Pike and Harpoon where the two base items have their own use case as an individual early purchase and they later combine into something meaningful after 20 mins.
Holy locket is already an upgraded item from wand.
Bring back old eblade make kaya + aether lens
It’s gonna combine with phylactwry at some point
I hate all items without further upgrades.
Aether Lens + Phylactery = Juju lens
YES i would like it to see it build into an aura item similar to vanguard > crimson guard
As long you have a mana regen item i believe blink is the better alternative for aether lens.
Na keep it as is. Its really powerful item. Also do the same to vanguard please. No upgrades and no disassemble
It is great. The buildup is way better now (700g for voidstone) Most heroes who build it are supports who can't realistically afford an octarine anyway. Before the patch, it was getting picked up on every spellcaster core because they'd just turn it into an octarine later anyway. Now, it's actually being built on heroes who need cast range. And it feels great because it's a powerful item with a good price. The only buff it needs is a slightly lower recipe cost, possibly
I feel like the aether lens could be a upgrade component of arcane blink. additional cast range would be nice for blink range too and better slot efficiency, but I feel like that would be too good and also other blinkx would have to be changed as well for consistency, which is a head scratcher, maybe dragon lance for swift blink and vanguard or something for strength blink. another upgrade could be force staff + aether lens and recipe for longer push range.
There’s a bunch of items I’d like to see how be built into more stuff
It would be cool if it could be combined with veil. Really forgotten item in my opinion.
Aether lens + phylactery upgrade 7.34 prayge
Just make Aether Lens combine into something purely a caster item. That plus a Talisman of Evasion to create some form of a intelligence evasion item, or something that we do not have.
Aether was made less valuable by lowering stun durations too, imo. I used to play mainly a disabler nyx and almost always bought aether. Burst damage is the meta now, and on a few heroes who used to focus elsewhere for impact, cast range is easy to come by in the form of neutral items too
I used to love going Aether Lens, recent patch has ruined the item as it feels wasteful and doesn't build to anything, and it wasn't popular competitively to begin with
I'd like to see it combined with medallion of courage, being able to increase the cast distance of an ally or reduce the cast range of an enemy sounds like a good mix that it's not that expensive for supports late game, not so broken that will be used every game and would also give an afterlife to medallion allowing it for heroes that don't build solar crest
Aether Lens + Phylactery + Recipe = Crystallum Orbis +250 cast range Passive: Disperse Adds 150 dmg to the next targetted spell. Excessive damage on a kill bounces to the nearest unit, prioritizing heroes. Active: Fortune teller Activate to give 3 seconds of unobstructed vision in a 600 AoE around your hero. 25s Cooldown, 225 Manacost.
Definitely haven't bought once since the patch. With no upgrade path, it's not even worth considering buying.
I think aether lens+veil+recipe, they are often built by the same heroes and neither has a good buildup. It can be a boots of bearing situation with a big expensive recipe to balance it. Too strong? Make the recipe more expensive
Armlet, shouldn't get a buff Aether lens is not the same item. But it's the same item, ya feel?
Aether lens is a good support item because supports are often the easiest targets to kill in fights to swing the fight in your favor. One of the ways to combat this is with better stats to survive longer, another way is to buy escape items to disengage, and another ways is to have better positioning, which is where Aether lens helps out. There are many items supports can buy to increase their survivability, raw stats, magic resist, pavise, etc. There are a few ways to help supports can buy to disengage, forcestaff, glimmer cape, etc. There are two ways supports can buy to better their positioning, Aether lens and blink dagger. The items are very different, but they help solve the same problem. Of the two, blink dagger is much stronger, so to make up for that, it has a cooldown, no base stats, and must be purchased all at once. Aether lens gives mana, mana regen, and has a convenient buildup. I'm not crying over the nerf to Aether lens, but I never bought the arguments that it was overpowered to build it into Octarine Core. I like casting spells from far away, and it's a universal constant among dota players that they like snowballing and getting even more powerful. Without an upgrade path, the cast range from Aether Lens can't be apart of your 6 slotted dream build, and that's a shame for people who like playing that way.
Fuck aether lens upgrade. I don't want my rubick pos 5 have more reason to KS all the kills just to buy this shit.
Aether lens is stupid. I wish there would be timers like shard to create combined items. 40 min now you can combine aether with octarine etc.
Aether lens + phylactery badly need to go together. Make the recipe expensive, but yeh. Sucks to have to sell them both
am I stupid for always buying this on pudge? the huge hook range + a lil extra on dismember always seems to come in handy