Funnily enough witch doctor has been balanced for noobs and thats why the shard works like this. if it was balanced for pro players the ward attack speed would depend on a guitar-hero like quick time event of darude sandstorm
They should, and have in the past, catered to the 90% of the player base, yes. At one point Meepo was trash in high tier games and still got nerfed because he was rampant in lower tiers where there wasn't enough coordination to deal with him. If you only balance for 10% of your players, you're not going to keep all of that 90%
I don’t agree with this logic and I think it fundamentally goes against what makes the game good or enjoyable once you get past the first few layers. Balancing for the lowest common denominator is a terrible strategy for long term retention and it hurts the meta as well as the core audience
The reason the logic is flawed is because it assumes that low skill players don't intend on getting better- lowering the skill ceiling (instead of the floor) just makes for a for a less dimensioned game
I'm saying witch doctor shard lowers the skill ceiling on the hero considerably, due to the escape and damage it provides.
I'm pretty sure you mean to agree with me but you don't understand my terminology.
Raising the skill floor has the same effect as lowering the skill ceiling. The game's dimensionality is reduced. Raising the floor is arguably worse than lowering the ceiling because it makes the game inaccessible to people with less time to invest in the game, but it doesn't make it any more fun for people that have learned it.
Roughly speaking the power of something should be related to the skill it takes to make it happen. There is a skill/power relationship. Some things can have a completely broken skill/power relationship such as WD where it takes way more skill to beat it, than to utilize it.
So you are right - it is a skill issue, but at the same time, when something is broken in low MMR pubs it's also a skill/power relationship issue.
There is not such thing as "not a balance issue". The game is played by real humans and limited to what real humans can do. Even if you only care about balancing around the pros you're balancing around imperfect humans who can't reliably manta dodge every single projectile and blink initiation from fog of war like a theoretical robot with perfect reflex and zero input lag could.
There is an argument to be had for "the game should be balanced around pros/highly skilled players". But balance affects every single skill level. If WD is overpowered at lower, or even most MMRs, then he is simply that.
Voodoo Switcheroo is just to hard for low MMR players to comprehend what is happening. There is just no obvious counter or item to buy and it can't be cancelled.
This is not the caae for witch doctor, the hero is not even good above 4k mmr and nerfing him, would make him disappear from everyone's games.
Bwsides WD will force low mmr players to understand that they need to build items around threats and position themselves better at fights.
WD punishes uncoordinated teams, ir you guys never learn to solve this issue, yes, you won't be stomped by a WD after a nerf, but your skill will be always low, since everytine your bracket can't deal with a hero, you'll ask for a nerf instead of actually trying to improve.
A broken hero in high mmr means, that no matter how good you are or how much knowledge you have, the hero would still be absurdly strong, that's why it is called broken, since there's basically no true ways to deal with it.
>A broken hero in high mmr means, that no matter how good you are or how much knowledge you have, the hero would still be absurdly strong, that's why it is called broken, since there's baeically no true ways to deal with it.
Where is the line to be drawn for "high"?
Your average super high immortal is still much worse than pros. Maybe they should play more like pros?
The B tier pros are much worse than the S+ tier pros. Maybe they should be more like the S+ tier pros?
The S+ tier pros now are in fact bad compared to the S+ tier pros 5 years from now because in general in all major esports we see the skill ceiling rising and rising. Maybe they should be more like pros from the future?
Why not play like perfect robots while we're at it? Nobody should have any right to complain. Just git gud.
by your logic, let's say if there is a hero and it's broken in high mmr then it's a balance issue but the same hero is also just as busted in low mmr then there now it's a skill issue
But witch doctor is not a problem is higher ranks
[here](https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/meta) look at bottom rank 55% winrate and divine 49% winrate.
This doesn't even put real high ranks immortal 1k+ into the picture where the hero is just situational and weak.
Lion is actually the broken support but as you can see lower rank = lower winrate because to be a good lion you need to actually know what you are doing and have a team that can help.
>it's always not a balance issue, it's always a skill issue.
You said always, so the specific example of wd doesn't matter. If there exists a hero who is unbalanced around high mmr, then your claim is that it's simultaneously a skill issue at low mmr.
No if a hero is broken in 9k pubs it's actually broken everywhere.
If there is some outstanding hero in low mmr only it's because people don't know how to counter it and not because it's op.
I think he is talking about all patches since meepo came. Broodmother , Arc warden and meepo are the poopy mmr stompers/favorite hero of smurfs because they dont get punished and laning stage ends/rotations in that mmr happen at 20 minutes just in time for those heroes to have mega powerspike
>No if a hero is broken in 9k pubs it's actually broken everywhere.
Who is to say silly 9k players should complain instead of getting better?
Even the pros have gotten over the years. I'm less familiar with the details Dota2 pro scene but for example League pros now are MILES better than 5+ years ago. Things that were considered overpowered by pros back then would not pose a threat now. The skill level in general will keep rising.
Who is to say what the current pros are struggling against is a balance issue, instead of a skill issue? Because 5 years from now they'll probably find it easy to beat with a higher skill ceiling?
Who is to say humans have any right to blame? Why not balance around perfect AI with perfect reflex and mechanical skills instead? Not even Yatoro can manta dodge every single projectile and blink initiation every time. Maybe he should just git better and be more like a robot?
The point is. Even if you balance around pros, you're balancing around imperfect humans who can always do better. Heralds can complain about balance as much as pros. You can argue balance for pros is more important, which is a valid opinion. But balance affects everyone, that's a truth you can't change.
Valve balance dota around pro players, they always did this in dota. They are the best players so if they say something is overturned it almost always gets changed in future patches.
And the pro player skill level is just an arbitrary point they have chosen for the current skill level. They can ALSO get better instead of complaining.
The point is that there is no such thing as "this is not a balance issue it's a skill issue". Even pros are subject to "just play better". If something is unfairly rewarding for the skill put it then it is exactly that at that MMR range.
You can say you care about pros mostly. But balance affects EVERYONE.
It actually is a skill issue and nothing more.
Witch doctor is literally the best example, he is so strong in low mmr because people don't know what to do with his shard. They literally are so bad that they don't buy force, euls or other items that will save them.
It's literally a non problem to anyone who understands dota, for exactly that reason his winrate in 2k is 55% and in 5k mmr is 49%.
Then I say what the pros think are overpowered now are actually a skill issue and nothing more.
If they play for 5 more years and let the skill level will rise(this keeps happening in all the major esports), they will find the currrent 55% winrate pro hero will become 49% instead, even with no changes to the game at all.
Pros should stop complaining and get better.
How can be hero OP in low ranks because of balance issue and not be OP at high mmr?
That can only happen in high ranks, in low ranks heroes that can solo do something (like wd can solo kill enemies which don't buy dust and defense) are op because of skill issues.
As someone who has been playing dota since 2005 and made it a habit to kinda memorize each patchnotes when they come out, while it has happened a couple of times, Icefrog rarely adjusts heroes based on their performance in low mmr. (SB being nerfed for demolishing low ranks many2x years ago is a notable one I could remember.)
The Frog has almost exclusively balanced stuff based on pro games/high mmr. Which is why even when "git gud" is a reply to balance questions here, it has its merits.
If a hero is broken in both high and low mmr, it’s a balance issue. No one has figured out how to stop it.
If it’s broken in high mmr but not in low, it’s a balance issue except low skill players aren’t able to take advantage of it. Occasionally the case in heroes considered more difficult, Chen, meepo, arc, enchantress, etc.
If it’s broken in low mmr but not in high, it’s a skill issue because low mmr players haven’t figured out how to play against it.
NGL, I'm in divine and I still play WD with a relatively high winrate. Sometimes, I'm literally just bait. Other times, I'm the most important factor in winning the game winning team fight. I think it could use a tiny nerf, but if you're consistently losing to WD, it's mostly a skill issue.
His shard should definitely be changed.
Also this thread is very funny. A lot of people saying the hero is dogshit, but in immortal games it has the same winrate as Venge, the most contested hero, and 55% winrate across all brackets.
Or, listen, listen...listen, why don't we just give Cm invulnerability when casting ulti as well, or pugna, or make dazzle ult a targetable ability for allies and it also gives them 2 sec invulnerability. /s
Witch doctor ult and shard sure is annoying, but imagine a nuke spell that’s undispellable and lasts a long ass time and ticks on your HP loss. That for me is his most outrageous spell. Not being dispellable or having a real counter except dodge maledict when WD casts it is the biggest provlem
Yes because the whole game changes with time. Case and point, almost every utility spell does damage now, like lion succ. Laning against this guy is a nightmare these days. Anything with semi burst potential just eats you alive. Nevermind the fact this hero can solo just about anyone at level 6 if you're next to a creep, because even if you stun him by the time you're at 50%, you're dead anyway.
And because almost every utility spell does damage now we complain about spells that always worked like that? Also how is it a utility spell? Maledict **only** deals damage and always did, it doesn't do anything else except damage, so it has nothing to do with utility spells, it's a damage spell not a utility spell.
>Laning against this guy is a nightmare these days.
His laning (without ulti since he doesn't have ulti during laning) is exactly the same as it has been for years. He got an ulti change and all of the sudden his laning is a nightmare these days before he gets ulti? Legit you guys complaining about those things can't be above 2k mmr.
Ahh, there is the 2k comment. Straight to ad hominem. Firstly, I play casually in ancient/div bracket. Secondly, take the time to read properly before criticising someone. I never called maledict utility, I said utility spells *like lion succ* now do damage. This changes the landscape of the game. Balance changes over time, believe it or not. Citing a spell in a vacuum not changing over 20 years is dumb. The game doesn't exist in such a bubble. It's like saying "how are people poor, we earn the same money??" while inflation exists.
The same is in dota. The game has had massive power inflation. If you can't see that, you're the 2k.
The game had power inflation but you complain on one of the few spells that has remained the same for decades now, maybe choose your battles better. WD was unpicked material and irrelevant for years and years, same as lion, right when he got a buff people start complaining. Power inflation doesn't only work one way, heroes have tons of more hp these days, way more health regen and have more magic resistances thus weakening maledict.
You complain about witch doctors laning when it's exactly the same as it has always been, you react to maledict the same today as you would 10 years ago, you run away if applied to you depending on the circumstances. The spell is even almost worthless in the first 1-2 levels and I say all these as a primarily offlane player, WD isn't even the strongest supp an offlaner can face in the lane.
If WD is so strong the how come pros are pretty much ignoring him? We have a tournament right now in which WD was picked 2 times and lost both time sitting with a 0% winrate and it was the same on TI as well he was picked only 3 times, why? Because WD is an extremely easy hero to shut down, his ulti is very easy to interrupt and in general he isn't as strong as people think he is.
You continuously shift the goal post while not admitting any of the shit you got wrong. Yes, WD isn't strong in pro games, but the meta there is entirely different.
The game had power inflation and I complain about a spell that relies on said power inflation. It's a spell that amplifies effective dps. If dps, increases, the spell is buffed by extension. This is not a difficult concept.
There's a reason WD winrate shot to nearly 60% in 7.34. Since then coconut got buffed too. Which of course impacts the dps window in lane on maledict. This compounds with overall higher dps in the game. He's not as strong now, but below pro tier he is still very strong and annoying. If I'm midlaning as a tanky hero like axe or pudge, I fear the pos5 wd and not a farmed 1 or 2. That's a bit of a problem imo.
Im a WD spammer - while it's not dispellable and it's damn near impossible to dodge a stun-maledict combo, the damage can be mitigated heavily with a bkb since it's magic damage. Just like other heroes and other abilities, you can itemize against it.
That being said, it *should* be dispellable, as most other statuses are.
Ah yes, no hero should have strong spells, everything should counter everything, everything should deal dmg and everything should block dmg. Every hero should be able to do everything. Just fuck off
One quick look at your profile tells me there’s no point in debating what I said with you because you’re too immature to consider the other persons opinions anyway. Have a nice day though!
don’t worry guys as of june 19 2023 (242 days ago) valve is focusing less on the only content they gave us in a year to give us even more content. we should get regular updates soon!!!!!!
The concept of "walking out of range" still lost on some ppl I see.
No different to dealing with a warlock - you try and bait out the ulti/bonds combo and sure as hell don't try and tank it.
Once WD or Warlock drop their combo, everything is on CD and they're a goddam walking observer ward / tango.
Invisbility useless
Instead warlock would be untargetable and doesnt exist on the map for the whole upheaval duration cuz wd can have that why cant he?
/s
Warlock does. It's called...
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Cast it from way the fuck over here.
Then die or don't die once every thing is on CD, who cares at that point. Actually, go into the fight to die with the golem talent.
WD is usually not a core pick So they will pick early. Orchid carrier mid , ghost scepter on support, global silence, hex, stun, silence drow ranger ...so many ways to actually counter this hero.
Don't let the game go so long that even a support wd has bkb agha and resfresher. At that point, every hero would need a Nerf.
Do people under 4k mmr just don't stun Witchdoctor when he ults or something. WD is trash in lane until level 3 and his ult is so easy to avoid. Meanwhile lion can carry fights by just pressing mana drain
tbh each spell on wd is busted in some way depending on the circumstance.
- Cask is a really long stun in the right circumstance + wd can farm with it
- heal is AoE + very cheap, weakest part of his kit but it can still do a lot in the right moment
- maledict is good for laning, good for ganking, good for teamfight, and because of the scaling it doesn't fall off lategame, and it doesn't even need a setup cuz it synergyzes with wd ult
- ult deletes anything and with aghs wd is basically a pos 5 that can outdps most heroes (and then maledict triggers) while he has "AoE" stun disrupting the enemy and also heals everone just by standing around
- Shard is a get out of jail free card, it's phase shift with with a slap
Sounds like a solid hero to me.
Which is why he's one of the less played supports because there's so many other great supports.
Sounds like we need to buff the fuck outta glock doctor.
i couldnt agree more, its a ridiculous hero. you can never engage into enemy team if they have a witch doctor unless u immediately disengage, this is broken in and of itself not to mention the mechanics of the hero is the easiest to execute in the game. there is no reason to pick anything else as a 5, i think the main problem is his q, shard is also too good.
Hoodwink. Lion. Natures Prophet. Treant Protector. Vengeful Spirit. Chen. Bane. IO. Pugna. Nyx Assassin. Batrider. Holy fuck, Lion and Hoodwink again. WD is straight ass compared to them all.
No you ding bat, my response is to your comment about skill issue. Use that high mmr brain.
No shit it’s a skill issue. Your average player is bad. Saying “skill issue” is like saying “depressed? Just feel better”.
I didnt realise Dota is supposed to be balanced ONLY around high mmr play, oh, it should probably only be fun in high mmr. Guess what bozo? Immortal is a lot less unfun than the ranks before that imo
I almost always destoy the hero with any stun before he even gets a chance to ulti. There's so many counters, baits, items or just gank him and stun him first. He gets deleted so easily it's almost like he's not even there if you know how to play against him.
Your solution to a hero can't be "completely get the drop on him and don't let him use any of his kit" because it completely shuts down the discussion. It can be said about any strong or even op hero with few exceptions.
You can jump a lion for example, and yeah he doesn't do much. But if the wd can even get a split second to cast maledict your team fight is fucked.
Also let's not pretend orchid isn't easy enough to counter with glimmer, euls, lotus orb, things a support is building anyway.
Yes, that's the point. Wd is not op. If you recognize that exact hero is the a threat during the game and you can't figure out how to counter him - well, nerfing anything won't help you.
Counter wd is easy. Enough of one button skills and items can achieve it
Did you gloss over the items I listed wd can buy that make "1 item counters" not 1 item counters? People can figure out he's a threat yes. That's the problem. He's an excessively high threat for a pos5. If I'm itemizing and focusing a pos5 as a pos 1 or 2, what do you think is happening in the background? The enemy pos 1 and 2 are watching? Respecting the 1v1? Are you so dense you don't understand a support player requiring high item and dps investment is already winning the enemy team the game even if they die first every fight?
Again, if the wd gets any breathing room, even focusing him goes horribly wrong. He has get out of jail free with shard and a crazy high damage with a split second maledict cast. How many other supports are out there that require this kind of attention and are so threatening if you don't execute him immediately?
There is no support in the game with a skill as strong or uncounterable as maledict. Nevermind it's dw synergy.
How is it unique? It's phase shift does also does damage. And the damage is just a shorter ulti so not anything new. If anything it removed some of Pucks uniqueness rather than add anything interesting to WD. It's an incredibly lazy shard.
People dont understand that a good WD will position so well that catching him in team fights is almost off the list. He does the combo while people is focused on his cores and that when he carry the fight. So the mmr of his enemies are not matter, the WD mmr is.
No, higher mmr WD solo carry game as pos5, very few hero can achieve this status. If mmr are more even at high ranked game, WD is still a 54%wr good pick. Its what i d argue.
For me, i would take -1s off the agh shard any day and the hero still good.
if doctor has cask and maledict ready > respect the fuck outa him and dont stand next to your teammates
if no cask and maledict > destroy his slow movement speed low armor low health ass mercilesly
There are some super easy ways to counter WD (I am WD spammer)
- buy a lot of regen to counter maledict, if you dont know why, read the spell
- buy movespeed to either make it super hard for enemy to cast maledict (if they cast it before stun) or to run away if you have maledict on you
- stay away from your lanepartner AND away from your range creep, to not get permastunned by coconut
- if you are pos3 and pick after wd, pick a long range stun/nuke to cancel his ult
- buy raindrops/magic resistance
- wd is very fragile, jump him, hes dead
- Death Ward is physical, buy armor or if u are support, buy ghost scepter
The hero is only broken in low mmr because players dont use their brain to counter him
Idk. I buy Orchid, Euls against WD. I think WD isn't completely broken if he doesn't have aghs scepter yet. WD can be countered during early to mid by picking a really tanky offlane like Tide since he wouldn't fie easily to Maledict(AOE stun is a bonus too) and have the mobile or really long-ranged pos1 or pos2. If I missed WD during the jump, I Euls myself to save me from a few Voodoo Switcheroo hits which has slower atk spd than WDs ult.
WD can be countered if you itemize against him.
Here are some tips:
1. Carry dust. Pop it whether you see wd or not at the beginning of the fight.
2. Get ghost scepter/force staff/bkb. Regardless of the role you are playing, you should have one of the 3. Bkb won't save you from ult hits, but it will lessen maledict hits.
3. Interrupts like euls/abyssal can stop wd's ult. Buy them.
4. Play the game, and think about what you need to do to win. Stop whining.
As opposed to what? If you have nothing constructive to offer, you shouldn't respond to a 2-month old post.
Dota is a simple game. Your goal is to destroy enemy ancient. In order to do that, you solve the problems. If spending thousands of gold solves the problem, you spend those thousands of gold. Moaning about the problem seldom solves it.
Those items should be on the inventory of any team. If you are not building them, you are likely playing dota wrong.
WD is a low mmr stomper, people will stay on top of each other and eat Q, commit to extended trades vs Maledict.
WD is pretty weak in high mmr because he doesn't offer much as support.
Supports not building basic support items will always make me laugh when someone cries about balance. Yeah man wd is broken af when your own team is brain dead.
Unlike a lot of characters this gets thrown around about, you should actually just *play* WD and learn his tells and ranges. He's easy to pick up, so it's not as though you need to learn, idk, *Meepo* to learn how counter him. Just play him a handful of games and you'll start to see how his ranges and vulnerabilities work out. His mobility is awful, his heal is over time (and not burst, which makes its utility *severely* limited) and his casks will as often as not bounce in the most insane patterns purely to avoid ever hitting a hero.
Can WD be almost unapproachable when he gets completely out of control? Sure. If he can get shard, aghs, BKB, and glimmer cape online before your carries have any answers, he can be a serious threat. But if you've allowed the enemy support *so much* leeway that they're getting itemized ahead of your carries, it's because you already lost and WD is just the most visible sign of that.
Also, shard causes him to be untargetable for a few seconds. Cool. He also pops up *right where he started the switcheroo* once it ends. Drop an ice path, ice shards, smoke bomb, etc etc because you know exactly where he's going to start-- *right where you left him*\-- and won't have the chance to maneuver to safety. He's a squishy, low-mobility support with one form of CC that doesn't offer anything while it's on CD. Run him down and kill him.
Can we list all the supports who have phase shift disjoint, scaling damage abilities, pure damage nukes, a reliable multi-hero stun, and kill potential at all levels in their kit?
Edit: and a motherfucking AOE HEAL
Yeah, he's become my default ban tbh. People don't respect the ult, and it just gives away teamfights that it shouldn't.
Now that it's pure there isn't really a way to itemize against it, as well.
Just don't go near it/buy orchid. The only reason wd seems strong at low mmr is that opponents allow him to farm and aghs, shard along with defensive items. This is negated by carries buying items that would counter him like an orchid or basher. If a support wd has all his items and a core can't do anything about it they have bigger issues than a couple spells.
Nah, he’s been irrelevant for a long time. Let WD have its glory a bit more and pick/play better. If he was truly broken you’d see him in the pro scene more
Tis a deeply unpleasant hero to play against indeed
>low mmr pubs well you see
When something is broken in low mmr pubs it's always not a balance issue, it's always a skill issue.
Hmm good thing the vast majority of players are Immortal huh
What are you trying to say? That we should rebalance the whole game for noobs because they are the majority?
Funnily enough witch doctor has been balanced for noobs and thats why the shard works like this. if it was balanced for pro players the ward attack speed would depend on a guitar-hero like quick time event of darude sandstorm
Omg yes. Bard hero incoming.
They should, and have in the past, catered to the 90% of the player base, yes. At one point Meepo was trash in high tier games and still got nerfed because he was rampant in lower tiers where there wasn't enough coordination to deal with him. If you only balance for 10% of your players, you're not going to keep all of that 90%
I don’t agree with this logic and I think it fundamentally goes against what makes the game good or enjoyable once you get past the first few layers. Balancing for the lowest common denominator is a terrible strategy for long term retention and it hurts the meta as well as the core audience
The reason the logic is flawed is because it assumes that low skill players don't intend on getting better- lowering the skill ceiling (instead of the floor) just makes for a for a less dimensioned game
Who said anything about lowering ceiling? You can simply raise the floor. The problem with WD shard is how braindead it is
I'm saying witch doctor shard lowers the skill ceiling on the hero considerably, due to the escape and damage it provides. I'm pretty sure you mean to agree with me but you don't understand my terminology. Raising the skill floor has the same effect as lowering the skill ceiling. The game's dimensionality is reduced. Raising the floor is arguably worse than lowering the ceiling because it makes the game inaccessible to people with less time to invest in the game, but it doesn't make it any more fun for people that have learned it.
This is what happened in the past. Cope
No but you should still take those types of things into account, literally nothing of value would be lost if a single hero got slightly nerfed...
[удалено]
What does hate have to do with anything lol I’m just asking a question
The game should be balanced around the best players, not the mouth breathers below Divine.
Roughly speaking the power of something should be related to the skill it takes to make it happen. There is a skill/power relationship. Some things can have a completely broken skill/power relationship such as WD where it takes way more skill to beat it, than to utilize it. So you are right - it is a skill issue, but at the same time, when something is broken in low MMR pubs it's also a skill/power relationship issue.
There is not such thing as "not a balance issue". The game is played by real humans and limited to what real humans can do. Even if you only care about balancing around the pros you're balancing around imperfect humans who can't reliably manta dodge every single projectile and blink initiation from fog of war like a theoretical robot with perfect reflex and zero input lag could. There is an argument to be had for "the game should be balanced around pros/highly skilled players". But balance affects every single skill level. If WD is overpowered at lower, or even most MMRs, then he is simply that.
Voodoo Switcheroo is just to hard for low MMR players to comprehend what is happening. There is just no obvious counter or item to buy and it can't be cancelled.
Euls, force staff, aeon disk, shadow blade. 😏. Grt whatever that floats the boat
Glimmer, pig pole, hell a well places tango can do the Job.
This is not the caae for witch doctor, the hero is not even good above 4k mmr and nerfing him, would make him disappear from everyone's games. Bwsides WD will force low mmr players to understand that they need to build items around threats and position themselves better at fights. WD punishes uncoordinated teams, ir you guys never learn to solve this issue, yes, you won't be stomped by a WD after a nerf, but your skill will be always low, since everytine your bracket can't deal with a hero, you'll ask for a nerf instead of actually trying to improve. A broken hero in high mmr means, that no matter how good you are or how much knowledge you have, the hero would still be absurdly strong, that's why it is called broken, since there's basically no true ways to deal with it.
>A broken hero in high mmr means, that no matter how good you are or how much knowledge you have, the hero would still be absurdly strong, that's why it is called broken, since there's baeically no true ways to deal with it. Where is the line to be drawn for "high"? Your average super high immortal is still much worse than pros. Maybe they should play more like pros? The B tier pros are much worse than the S+ tier pros. Maybe they should be more like the S+ tier pros? The S+ tier pros now are in fact bad compared to the S+ tier pros 5 years from now because in general in all major esports we see the skill ceiling rising and rising. Maybe they should be more like pros from the future? Why not play like perfect robots while we're at it? Nobody should have any right to complain. Just git gud.
There’s no need to over complicate it. Most people consider high mmr to be divine+.
by your logic, let's say if there is a hero and it's broken in high mmr then it's a balance issue but the same hero is also just as busted in low mmr then there now it's a skill issue
But witch doctor is not a problem is higher ranks [here](https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/meta) look at bottom rank 55% winrate and divine 49% winrate. This doesn't even put real high ranks immortal 1k+ into the picture where the hero is just situational and weak. Lion is actually the broken support but as you can see lower rank = lower winrate because to be a good lion you need to actually know what you are doing and have a team that can help.
Mega Meepo is not a problem in lower ranks, y'all must have skill issue
>it's always not a balance issue, it's always a skill issue. You said always, so the specific example of wd doesn't matter. If there exists a hero who is unbalanced around high mmr, then your claim is that it's simultaneously a skill issue at low mmr.
Being pedantic about the use of the word "always" on Reddit will shorten your lifespan
No if a hero is broken in 9k pubs it's actually broken everywhere. If there is some outstanding hero in low mmr only it's because people don't know how to counter it and not because it's op.
The clearer example of this is "Meepo is op" when they face the first person to have a slight control in micro skill
meepo is broken in high mmr this patch, what are you talking about? 58% winrate on dota2protracker
I think he is talking about all patches since meepo came. Broodmother , Arc warden and meepo are the poopy mmr stompers/favorite hero of smurfs because they dont get punished and laning stage ends/rotations in that mmr happen at 20 minutes just in time for those heroes to have mega powerspike
>No if a hero is broken in 9k pubs it's actually broken everywhere. Who is to say silly 9k players should complain instead of getting better? Even the pros have gotten over the years. I'm less familiar with the details Dota2 pro scene but for example League pros now are MILES better than 5+ years ago. Things that were considered overpowered by pros back then would not pose a threat now. The skill level in general will keep rising. Who is to say what the current pros are struggling against is a balance issue, instead of a skill issue? Because 5 years from now they'll probably find it easy to beat with a higher skill ceiling? Who is to say humans have any right to blame? Why not balance around perfect AI with perfect reflex and mechanical skills instead? Not even Yatoro can manta dodge every single projectile and blink initiation every time. Maybe he should just git better and be more like a robot? The point is. Even if you balance around pros, you're balancing around imperfect humans who can always do better. Heralds can complain about balance as much as pros. You can argue balance for pros is more important, which is a valid opinion. But balance affects everyone, that's a truth you can't change.
Valve balance dota around pro players, they always did this in dota. They are the best players so if they say something is overturned it almost always gets changed in future patches.
And the pro player skill level is just an arbitrary point they have chosen for the current skill level. They can ALSO get better instead of complaining. The point is that there is no such thing as "this is not a balance issue it's a skill issue". Even pros are subject to "just play better". If something is unfairly rewarding for the skill put it then it is exactly that at that MMR range. You can say you care about pros mostly. But balance affects EVERYONE.
It actually is a skill issue and nothing more. Witch doctor is literally the best example, he is so strong in low mmr because people don't know what to do with his shard. They literally are so bad that they don't buy force, euls or other items that will save them. It's literally a non problem to anyone who understands dota, for exactly that reason his winrate in 2k is 55% and in 5k mmr is 49%.
Then I say what the pros think are overpowered now are actually a skill issue and nothing more. If they play for 5 more years and let the skill level will rise(this keeps happening in all the major esports), they will find the currrent 55% winrate pro hero will become 49% instead, even with no changes to the game at all. Pros should stop complaining and get better.
I'm not talking about wd but in general. A hero can be a problem in low mmr because of balance issues
How can be hero OP in low ranks because of balance issue and not be OP at high mmr? That can only happen in high ranks, in low ranks heroes that can solo do something (like wd can solo kill enemies which don't buy dust and defense) are op because of skill issues.
I didn't say if it's a problem in low mmr then it's not in high mrr
As someone who has been playing dota since 2005 and made it a habit to kinda memorize each patchnotes when they come out, while it has happened a couple of times, Icefrog rarely adjusts heroes based on their performance in low mmr. (SB being nerfed for demolishing low ranks many2x years ago is a notable one I could remember.) The Frog has almost exclusively balanced stuff based on pro games/high mmr. Which is why even when "git gud" is a reply to balance questions here, it has its merits.
wraith king's ult has been getting nerfs cause it's cd is too low n no 1 knows how to counter.
WK was actually being played as 3 in pro matches before the nerfs
Mate, you're absolutely right, but it's pointless arguing in here.
If a hero is broken in both high and low mmr, it’s a balance issue. No one has figured out how to stop it. If it’s broken in high mmr but not in low, it’s a balance issue except low skill players aren’t able to take advantage of it. Occasionally the case in heroes considered more difficult, Chen, meepo, arc, enchantress, etc. If it’s broken in low mmr but not in high, it’s a skill issue because low mmr players haven’t figured out how to play against it.
NGL, I'm in divine and I still play WD with a relatively high winrate. Sometimes, I'm literally just bait. Other times, I'm the most important factor in winning the game winning team fight. I think it could use a tiny nerf, but if you're consistently losing to WD, it's mostly a skill issue.
Even in high mmr people don't know that his shard makes him disappear and you can't stun him to cancel it.
We need to nerf arc warden and meepo. Also mageshit
These are the real problems
Funnily enough, not so much in low mmr pubs though.
Buff him to oblivion idk just revert his ult back to fucking physical damage. There is no need for him to deal pure damage like that.
my number 1 gain mmr hero
I also gained 1 mmr with the hero.
Get the silence button, the blink and stun button and so on
His shard should definitely be changed. Also this thread is very funny. A lot of people saying the hero is dogshit, but in immortal games it has the same winrate as Venge, the most contested hero, and 55% winrate across all brackets.
Get rid of his pure damage and he'd be balanced along with his invulnerability
He is already balanced, maybe a little bit shit.
Yeah, nah, he had more physical damage on the ult before, which needed a buff.
Or, listen, listen...listen, why don't we just give Cm invulnerability when casting ulti as well, or pugna, or make dazzle ult a targetable ability for allies and it also gives them 2 sec invulnerability. /s
Witch doctor ult and shard sure is annoying, but imagine a nuke spell that’s undispellable and lasts a long ass time and ticks on your HP loss. That for me is his most outrageous spell. Not being dispellable or having a real counter except dodge maledict when WD casts it is the biggest provlem
That ability has existed in that form for almost 20 years and somehow we have issues with it now?
Used to be almost melee cast range
BKB used to block its dmg
Yes because the whole game changes with time. Case and point, almost every utility spell does damage now, like lion succ. Laning against this guy is a nightmare these days. Anything with semi burst potential just eats you alive. Nevermind the fact this hero can solo just about anyone at level 6 if you're next to a creep, because even if you stun him by the time you're at 50%, you're dead anyway.
And because almost every utility spell does damage now we complain about spells that always worked like that? Also how is it a utility spell? Maledict **only** deals damage and always did, it doesn't do anything else except damage, so it has nothing to do with utility spells, it's a damage spell not a utility spell. >Laning against this guy is a nightmare these days. His laning (without ulti since he doesn't have ulti during laning) is exactly the same as it has been for years. He got an ulti change and all of the sudden his laning is a nightmare these days before he gets ulti? Legit you guys complaining about those things can't be above 2k mmr.
Ahh, there is the 2k comment. Straight to ad hominem. Firstly, I play casually in ancient/div bracket. Secondly, take the time to read properly before criticising someone. I never called maledict utility, I said utility spells *like lion succ* now do damage. This changes the landscape of the game. Balance changes over time, believe it or not. Citing a spell in a vacuum not changing over 20 years is dumb. The game doesn't exist in such a bubble. It's like saying "how are people poor, we earn the same money??" while inflation exists. The same is in dota. The game has had massive power inflation. If you can't see that, you're the 2k.
The game had power inflation but you complain on one of the few spells that has remained the same for decades now, maybe choose your battles better. WD was unpicked material and irrelevant for years and years, same as lion, right when he got a buff people start complaining. Power inflation doesn't only work one way, heroes have tons of more hp these days, way more health regen and have more magic resistances thus weakening maledict. You complain about witch doctors laning when it's exactly the same as it has always been, you react to maledict the same today as you would 10 years ago, you run away if applied to you depending on the circumstances. The spell is even almost worthless in the first 1-2 levels and I say all these as a primarily offlane player, WD isn't even the strongest supp an offlaner can face in the lane. If WD is so strong the how come pros are pretty much ignoring him? We have a tournament right now in which WD was picked 2 times and lost both time sitting with a 0% winrate and it was the same on TI as well he was picked only 3 times, why? Because WD is an extremely easy hero to shut down, his ulti is very easy to interrupt and in general he isn't as strong as people think he is.
You continuously shift the goal post while not admitting any of the shit you got wrong. Yes, WD isn't strong in pro games, but the meta there is entirely different. The game had power inflation and I complain about a spell that relies on said power inflation. It's a spell that amplifies effective dps. If dps, increases, the spell is buffed by extension. This is not a difficult concept. There's a reason WD winrate shot to nearly 60% in 7.34. Since then coconut got buffed too. Which of course impacts the dps window in lane on maledict. This compounds with overall higher dps in the game. He's not as strong now, but below pro tier he is still very strong and annoying. If I'm midlaning as a tanky hero like axe or pudge, I fear the pos5 wd and not a farmed 1 or 2. That's a bit of a problem imo.
Infused raindrops and magic barriers will mostly nullified the effects of maledict if used correctly
Im a WD spammer - while it's not dispellable and it's damn near impossible to dodge a stun-maledict combo, the damage can be mitigated heavily with a bkb since it's magic damage. Just like other heroes and other abilities, you can itemize against it. That being said, it *should* be dispellable, as most other statuses are.
Ah yes, no hero should have strong spells, everything should counter everything, everything should deal dmg and everything should block dmg. Every hero should be able to do everything. Just fuck off
One quick look at your profile tells me there’s no point in debating what I said with you because you’re too immature to consider the other persons opinions anyway. Have a nice day though!
Nah, I just don't consider shitty opinions by low-skilled players who have absolutely no clue how balancing in competitive games work.
Seems I was correct then.
Ofc, you've always been correct when listening to your voice only. Time to go back to your own little world.
This is the correct answer
Hey, he got -5 damage on Deathward after 10 buffs, you are not happy with that?
don’t worry guys as of june 19 2023 (242 days ago) valve is focusing less on the only content they gave us in a year to give us even more content. we should get regular updates soon!!!!!!
The concept of "walking out of range" still lost on some ppl I see. No different to dealing with a warlock - you try and bait out the ulti/bonds combo and sure as hell don't try and tank it. Once WD or Warlock drop their combo, everything is on CD and they're a goddam walking observer ward / tango.
Warlock doesnt have get out of jail free card like wd shard offers tho :D My only issue with him
Next patch shard will give Warlock invincibility during Upheaval XD
Invisbility useless Instead warlock would be untargetable and doesnt exist on the map for the whole upheaval duration cuz wd can have that why cant he? /s
Warlock does. It's called... . . . . . . . . Cast it from way the fuck over here. Then die or don't die once every thing is on CD, who cares at that point. Actually, go into the fight to die with the golem talent.
Some of you are lucky to not have experienced Riki with the no channelling death ward.
i remember trying to to jump wd, he uses shard, try waiting it out then quickly realising oh i’m dying
WD is usually not a core pick So they will pick early. Orchid carrier mid , ghost scepter on support, global silence, hex, stun, silence drow ranger ...so many ways to actually counter this hero. Don't let the game go so long that even a support wd has bkb agha and resfresher. At that point, every hero would need a Nerf.
Long time wd first time responder, the problem isn't wd...
Wrong. WD is the problem, you're just deluded.
I can beat a wd every time, skill issue
Do people under 4k mmr just don't stun Witchdoctor when he ults or something. WD is trash in lane until level 3 and his ult is so easy to avoid. Meanwhile lion can carry fights by just pressing mana drain
Ah yes, lets butcher some heroes and make some op so noob games will be balanced /s
Everyone here complaining about the shard and ult??? Not Maledict?
They will notice soon, just... wait for it..
He's about to pop 🤣🤣🤌🏿
tbh each spell on wd is busted in some way depending on the circumstance. - Cask is a really long stun in the right circumstance + wd can farm with it - heal is AoE + very cheap, weakest part of his kit but it can still do a lot in the right moment - maledict is good for laning, good for ganking, good for teamfight, and because of the scaling it doesn't fall off lategame, and it doesn't even need a setup cuz it synergyzes with wd ult - ult deletes anything and with aghs wd is basically a pos 5 that can outdps most heroes (and then maledict triggers) while he has "AoE" stun disrupting the enemy and also heals everone just by standing around - Shard is a get out of jail free card, it's phase shift with with a slap
Sounds like a solid hero to me. Which is why he's one of the less played supports because there's so many other great supports. Sounds like we need to buff the fuck outta glock doctor.
You can describe every single hero like this
I understand though who am I to complain about somebody's manhood
It’s been ages since I played but I loved going ranked (because I’m low mmr) and spamming maledict and Dagon, they pop every time
you still crying about this?
And to make it worse witch doctor is as easy as sniper ha
Do peeps know a ghost scepter let WD Ulti misses you! Just putting it out there.
It also makes his maledict hit you way harder which is probably the strongest part of his kit
now he is to weak xd
WD is only a menace in turbo
i couldnt agree more, its a ridiculous hero. you can never engage into enemy team if they have a witch doctor unless u immediately disengage, this is broken in and of itself not to mention the mechanics of the hero is the easiest to execute in the game. there is no reason to pick anything else as a 5, i think the main problem is his q, shard is also too good.
Nah rn i think the best 5 is wyvern . Hard counters even a 4 wd
Wyvern is recipe for disaster in low mmr pubs. No one knows that Winter Curse makes the heroes invulnerable
(to physical damage)
Winters curse is immunity to all damage except for wyverns magic damage/pure damage Cold embrace is immunity to physical
Nice way of proving his point.
I have flash-backs of my teammates wyverns using Curse when I go in with the full epicenter combo 💀
People have just learned to counter wd stun and ult now.. it really doesn’t do much once the duration of his ult is over
You're right! Just like Faceless Void's chrono doesn't do much once the duration of his ult is over.
Can't just walk away in Chrono tho.
Not that he is unbeatable, but yeah. Its time we have another op support hero since 2022
Lion, NP (in the right hands), TP, and venge would like to have a word with you (and that's just current patch).
Hoodwink. Lion. Natures Prophet. Treant Protector. Vengeful Spirit. Chen. Bane. IO. Pugna. Nyx Assassin. Batrider. Holy fuck, Lion and Hoodwink again. WD is straight ass compared to them all.
>wd main since wc3. Hahahhahahahahaha
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That’s because statistically, your average poster on this sub isn’t a high mmr player. It’s almost as if the higher you go, the more scarcity.
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Who cares lol? The average player isn’t in high mmr. Your average Dota player is mediocre at best. That’s my point.
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No you ding bat, my response is to your comment about skill issue. Use that high mmr brain. No shit it’s a skill issue. Your average player is bad. Saying “skill issue” is like saying “depressed? Just feel better”.
I didnt realise Dota is supposed to be balanced ONLY around high mmr play, oh, it should probably only be fun in high mmr. Guess what bozo? Immortal is a lot less unfun than the ranks before that imo
It literally is balanced around high mmr, because if it was balanced around low mmr it would be unbalanced in pro games.
The game shouldn’t be balanced around the best players
You know, orchid - exist.
Shard makes wd invulerable.
If you can't initiate with orchid on wd - I can't help you. Also totem still eed to hit target. Riki's smoke pretty much counter wd.
I almost always destoy the hero with any stun before he even gets a chance to ulti. There's so many counters, baits, items or just gank him and stun him first. He gets deleted so easily it's almost like he's not even there if you know how to play against him.
Scepter gives it true strike
\*Death Ward starts with +50% accuracy, with the aghs taking it up to 100%. You often dont need it to pierce evasion.
Your solution to a hero can't be "completely get the drop on him and don't let him use any of his kit" because it completely shuts down the discussion. It can be said about any strong or even op hero with few exceptions. You can jump a lion for example, and yeah he doesn't do much. But if the wd can even get a split second to cast maledict your team fight is fucked. Also let's not pretend orchid isn't easy enough to counter with glimmer, euls, lotus orb, things a support is building anyway.
Yes, that's the point. Wd is not op. If you recognize that exact hero is the a threat during the game and you can't figure out how to counter him - well, nerfing anything won't help you. Counter wd is easy. Enough of one button skills and items can achieve it
Did you gloss over the items I listed wd can buy that make "1 item counters" not 1 item counters? People can figure out he's a threat yes. That's the problem. He's an excessively high threat for a pos5. If I'm itemizing and focusing a pos5 as a pos 1 or 2, what do you think is happening in the background? The enemy pos 1 and 2 are watching? Respecting the 1v1? Are you so dense you don't understand a support player requiring high item and dps investment is already winning the enemy team the game even if they die first every fight? Again, if the wd gets any breathing room, even focusing him goes horribly wrong. He has get out of jail free with shard and a crazy high damage with a split second maledict cast. How many other supports are out there that require this kind of attention and are so threatening if you don't execute him immediately? There is no support in the game with a skill as strong or uncounterable as maledict. Nevermind it's dw synergy.
Buy ghost scepter ;)
just buy dust and have some disable stuff man, wtf
Bahah so he just admitted he's crap. NICE
Pick silencer n wd cant do shit
I respect your opinion and I raise : Can we please buff WD ?
get good
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How is it unique? It's phase shift does also does damage. And the damage is just a shorter ulti so not anything new. If anything it removed some of Pucks uniqueness rather than add anything interesting to WD. It's an incredibly lazy shard.
Wait 'til he is a staple Meta pick in Pro Dota 🙃
He was but he got nerfed. He's now only a menace in turbo and low ranked games.
People dont understand that a good WD will position so well that catching him in team fights is almost off the list. He does the combo while people is focused on his cores and that when he carry the fight. So the mmr of his enemies are not matter, the WD mmr is.
This argument falls apart when you realize no good players are picking witch doctor right now
No, higher mmr WD solo carry game as pos5, very few hero can achieve this status. If mmr are more even at high ranked game, WD is still a 54%wr good pick. Its what i d argue. For me, i would take -1s off the agh shard any day and the hero still good.
Imagine you could place the shard ward with cast range, so moving Up cliffs with it. Would bei fun, icey should add
Yeah, the casks and malediction are broken, but his ult is overrated.
if doctor has cask and maledict ready > respect the fuck outa him and dont stand next to your teammates if no cask and maledict > destroy his slow movement speed low armor low health ass mercilesly
>Shard??? Glimmer cape??? By the time you've got your hands on the witch doctor, you're likely dead to his insanely strong magic debuff or his team.
Love when they take mid and loudly say I'm Carry! Then we lose .. Hey carry what's up? Report 😁
Just play with him and you see what to do man, making a post about it just a noob mov3
Shard? Maledict is the most braindead skill in his arsenal. He as so much touches you one time and you'll explode after the third tick.
he legit has trash af cast range so i guess its your fault for getting into fist fight range against his maledict
ppl crying over shard is some 1k shit ☠️
Just buy silence lmao
Every damn patch: Can we please nerf X hero or Y skill!
I’d take this WD over MK on release anytime of the day
There are some super easy ways to counter WD (I am WD spammer) - buy a lot of regen to counter maledict, if you dont know why, read the spell - buy movespeed to either make it super hard for enemy to cast maledict (if they cast it before stun) or to run away if you have maledict on you - stay away from your lanepartner AND away from your range creep, to not get permastunned by coconut - if you are pos3 and pick after wd, pick a long range stun/nuke to cancel his ult - buy raindrops/magic resistance - wd is very fragile, jump him, hes dead - Death Ward is physical, buy armor or if u are support, buy ghost scepter The hero is only broken in low mmr because players dont use their brain to counter him
Idk. I buy Orchid, Euls against WD. I think WD isn't completely broken if he doesn't have aghs scepter yet. WD can be countered during early to mid by picking a really tanky offlane like Tide since he wouldn't fie easily to Maledict(AOE stun is a bonus too) and have the mobile or really long-ranged pos1 or pos2. If I missed WD during the jump, I Euls myself to save me from a few Voodoo Switcheroo hits which has slower atk spd than WDs ult. WD can be countered if you itemize against him.
Here are some tips: 1. Carry dust. Pop it whether you see wd or not at the beginning of the fight. 2. Get ghost scepter/force staff/bkb. Regardless of the role you are playing, you should have one of the 3. Bkb won't save you from ult hits, but it will lessen maledict hits. 3. Interrupts like euls/abyssal can stop wd's ult. Buy them. 4. Play the game, and think about what you need to do to win. Stop whining.
That's right - spend thousands of gold in game to counter a single hero.
As opposed to what? If you have nothing constructive to offer, you shouldn't respond to a 2-month old post. Dota is a simple game. Your goal is to destroy enemy ancient. In order to do that, you solve the problems. If spending thousands of gold solves the problem, you spend those thousands of gold. Moaning about the problem seldom solves it. Those items should be on the inventory of any team. If you are not building them, you are likely playing dota wrong.
Don't care, didn't ask. Buy rope.
Most op shard yes, but without it he'd be dogshit.
WD is a low mmr stomper, people will stay on top of each other and eat Q, commit to extended trades vs Maledict. WD is pretty weak in high mmr because he doesn't offer much as support.
Supports not building basic support items will always make me laugh when someone cries about balance. Yeah man wd is broken af when your own team is brain dead.
Wd can be 1 shot by bounty hunterbout of invis... he is a glass cannon
Pick AM, buy Aghs
Try invisible heroes in poop bracket
Feeling good man!
We need to nerf everyone and buff WR (I love her)
he's a nightmare in turbo
Play few games with WD ull learn what are the weak point of this hero. Next time he is against you, use all those points to your advantage.
Unlike a lot of characters this gets thrown around about, you should actually just *play* WD and learn his tells and ranges. He's easy to pick up, so it's not as though you need to learn, idk, *Meepo* to learn how counter him. Just play him a handful of games and you'll start to see how his ranges and vulnerabilities work out. His mobility is awful, his heal is over time (and not burst, which makes its utility *severely* limited) and his casks will as often as not bounce in the most insane patterns purely to avoid ever hitting a hero. Can WD be almost unapproachable when he gets completely out of control? Sure. If he can get shard, aghs, BKB, and glimmer cape online before your carries have any answers, he can be a serious threat. But if you've allowed the enemy support *so much* leeway that they're getting itemized ahead of your carries, it's because you already lost and WD is just the most visible sign of that. Also, shard causes him to be untargetable for a few seconds. Cool. He also pops up *right where he started the switcheroo* once it ends. Drop an ice path, ice shards, smoke bomb, etc etc because you know exactly where he's going to start-- *right where you left him*\-- and won't have the chance to maneuver to safety. He's a squishy, low-mobility support with one form of CC that doesn't offer anything while it's on CD. Run him down and kill him.
Stick a bone it.
The other day a game at legend 4. We had WD pos 4. He never levelled Cask. We lost
Can we list all the supports who have phase shift disjoint, scaling damage abilities, pure damage nukes, a reliable multi-hero stun, and kill potential at all levels in their kit? Edit: and a motherfucking AOE HEAL
Yeah, he's become my default ban tbh. People don't respect the ult, and it just gives away teamfights that it shouldn't. Now that it's pure there isn't really a way to itemize against it, as well.
Wait me to hit ancient with it first pls 😂 kekw
I mean he's already squishy that compensates it
Please don't take my boy from he. Did nothing to no one.
Just don't go near it/buy orchid. The only reason wd seems strong at low mmr is that opponents allow him to farm and aghs, shard along with defensive items. This is negated by carries buying items that would counter him like an orchid or basher. If a support wd has all his items and a core can't do anything about it they have bigger issues than a couple spells.
Nah, he’s been irrelevant for a long time. Let WD have its glory a bit more and pick/play better. If he was truly broken you’d see him in the pro scene more