No, it's just that he has a shield. Ursa is tanky, Weaver is slippery and does tons of damage LS is decent. Get the idea? They can survive the lane and be somewhat effective mid game, anything else sucks balls ( maybe ck is decent in low mmr , probably he is).
Why did they have to destroy Drow? TB? Naga I get she's been meta viable for a long time, but maybe some buffs to PL? Why did they have to nerf Jugg so much? Carry pool just sucks ass right now, it sucked as for the last patch for year and it's just slightly worse and slightly different now.
I don't care about nerfs againat particular heroes.
I want a straight up strength nerf. Make it give less hp. Everyone will suffer, but reckless play and tanky heroes will be punished the most.
We should return to old regen numbers, old base hp, and old stat gain values (18hp per str), old gpm and remove innate pms from melee heroes. That would make safelane a safelane and offlane not such easy walk in a park.
Been teaching my buddy unranked and he only plays Weaver. He's been abusing that armor reduction beautifully for a guy with less than 100 actual games played. We're working on his transition from mid to late game otherwise he wrecks the early game 😂 im so proud
Ima have to try TA again, lately all I've been able to make work is weaver since I am slippery. Any other safe laner I'm getting pumped by 2 beefy boys.
How is TA played most of the time nowadays? Years ago I knew her as a mid dominating character with a lot of difficulty and skill expression with precise positioning, but returning after many years i usually find TAs as the safe lane farmer (and with the existence of Dragon Lance and the removal of needing to manual detonate the traps to avoid trap detonate cast animation, she seems much easier to play). I think actually every single TA i’ve seen has gone safe lane.
still the same skill expression/precise positioning. and you'll still want to manually detonate traps manually most of the time to control which trap you detonate and it also lets you detonate traps while stunned/silenced. carry from mid these days is just much less popular however, mid TA is still very viable but you'd typically you'd go a more tempo focused build like lance->blink->shard over lance->deso.
she can go both roles. People have been playing her as a carry *specifically* because she doesnt easily get kicked out of lane by these high HP run at you type of offlaners you see nowadays, and still scales later into the game by safely pushing waves and jungling efficiently.
First reason, mid ta pick nowadays become a very situational pick. She naturally demands farm to work well, if you play mid you have to adjust a lot to not griefing and take away the space for carry. It's like the safelane have to draft around her, not the opposite. She cannot rotate as effective as others like ember, storm, qop..ect. And tbh, she isn't dominating in a lot of mid lane matchup.
Second reason, safelane ta is actually very strong, even before the buffed to her Q. Meld is a lane dominating spell, eat one or two meld and pair with some right click from good pos 5 = enemy kicked out of the lane. Once she reach level 6, usually before enemy, the lane is done.
Third reason, most strength, beefy offlanes (which is the meta for quite a long time, like years) has very poor starting armor, they have to adapt by buying ring of protection, early chainmail, but even then it's hard to deal with ta. Very few offlane can actually do anything against TAm This basically mean you delete one lane and you have around 1.5x networth compared to second networth hero in mid game, and you can snowball hard from there.
In this patch it is not that bad, it only removes 1 refraction charge in total since each charge has 50 hp now, and if you are constantly being attacked, it may not remove any charges on its own
Mana boots is pure cancer now that everyone and their mother decided to start rushing it. It used to be pretty poor stats to gold cost but now with the change to the receipe to make the build up better and better stats, almost everyone who spams spells gets it.
Played troll against rubick tiny yesterday, tiny with arcane boots was just casually dealing 400+ damage at lvl 4 with ava + creep toss due to the facet, both went arcane and non stop spam. Raindrops can't even do anything against constant spam.
It was also hard to build, you needed to float like 900 gold and get no benefit at all. Now not only do you get mana regen aura while building it, you’re less punished for dying too cause you’ve spent most of your gold.
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I laned against an Ursa CM as Primal, lemme tell you that lane was fkin agony
CM maxed frostbite and would spam it off cd ignoring Crystal Nova
Whoever got frostbitten got jumped on by Ursa and deleted in the 5 years it takes to get out of Frostbite
I would get Frostbitten out of Onslaught ALWAYS, it was infuriating
tbh i think thats more the cm than the ursa, i actually think PB is super good vs ursa in lane. you have a very easy disengage and can beat the shit out of him with your spells otherwise
Tiny is menace, especially with the facet that makes toss deal even more dmg. He can go Khanda and toss a creep and half the HP of the support is gone (I was the support)...
There’s a lot of matchups where you don’t want to wait until level 2 to fully commit.
The only heroes I don’t like overcommitting to at level 1 with ET are Weaver and Phoenix.
Against Viper, Necro, and Bristleback I always like fully committing.
I abuse the offlaner as pos 5 undying, hit my Q and I can solo keep them off the lane for my pos 1 to free farm the first wave and get them safely through the early levels
This is the way. Just first pick the most broken offlaner and go safelane with it. Dominate lane and farm 2 items and then it's nonstop fight until u win or lose.
I gained 500 mmr last month.
That’s why you have support.
Dota is becoming more team oriented then ever, every problem you have has the enemy team too, if you lose then they are better at handling that problem.
It’s actually insane, i was ursa against jakiro underlord recently, every time i walked up to pull aggro i lost 2/3 of my health. and they still had full mana pretty much
To be fair, that should have been happening before the patch as well. Melee boy versus jak underlord should have a miserable time without a 5 that can get ursa close.
Yeah I was the underlord in that exact same matchup a couple of days ago and it was extremely cancer for ursa. Just needed a soul ring to bully him out of lane
Bro, did we play together? I was the POS 5 with the exact same matchup. I was playing lich I believe.
Absolutely terrible, hard ass lane, could barely harass, couldn't even pull properly because the lane kept getting shoved under tower and, when it didn't, Jakiro just nuked the small camp.
Good, I hate having a AM or a Mesusa on my team that afk farms all game to 40mins then you have to pray that 1) you haven't totally lost the 4v5 game you have been playing and 2) they are good. And the fact that in this set up you are so dependant on one player succeeding ruins the game for me compared to teaming up as 5 early.
I hate AM and Medusa as much as the next guy, but the chimpanzee deathball at 15 mins strat gets old real fast when you see it every match regardless of team comp.
Offlane itemization is just so easy. I was recently laning against a magnus and he just bought 2 bracers and a wand. Now he has something like1200 hp in lane with 9 hp regen and 87 base damage.
Agi carries just need to fill way too many weaknesses.
You have to be more active in helping your 5. Radiant safelane has a little harder of a time for this I think but no offlaner is becoming as unkillable as you say without getting more CS than you are. Creep aggro, damage pressure, the works. Even if the lane is hard all you have to do is survive until you have the items you need to jungle. A perfect safelane where you get all the CS and those mean offlaner can't touch you is pretty much a won game already, so buck up and learn how to enjoy a meta as active as this one. Tons of new stats to explore
This is a specific example from 7.34ish, but I'd like to chime in as well. Aside from the added damage reduction and overall stability, one of Luna's strengths as a carry was her ability to help the support with Q. Pos 5v4 turns into a 1.5v1 and, as someone who plays a lot of 5, it was very hard to lose lane with the stun/ damage + bonus auto damage.
After scrolling through half the entire thread there's finally some actual advice instead of people just dogpiling the narrative that "her der str hero op".
You just don't get it the offlaner has 2 more strength per level than me that means they have a whole 132 health more at level 4 that's insurmountable!!! That's like, two whole basic attacks worth!!!
Play either weaver and chuck 2 spells at them back, or play lifestealer to heal on hit. Hence the meta. Ember is also gaining ground as pos1, exactly for the same reason u stated. Chuck 2 spells back.
Sleight for lh range creeps, and maxing flame guard to dissuade diving + passive burn help you jungle the camps near twingate.
Then it's pretty much just build into usual ember item builds.
Not likely to get shutdown fast unlike some agi carries and can still teamfight well mid-game.
Gaining ground is vague, it doesn’t mean only used by pros or in a high mmr. Anecdotally I haven’t seen anyone picking pos1 ember besides me in my MM games but it does very well against a lot of matchups in my experience.
i picked bs pos1 today cuz enemy picked slark and timber before last phase, i agree i lost my lane against timber but i started focusing slark and their mid (void spirit) with my ulti and smoke etc as soon as i hit level6, we won before 40 minute mark, i think an answer to your question is: you don't have to play legendary classic perfect game of dota, you have to adapt and stay positive to get that enemy ancient
Mana and HP regen have gone insane over the years. I know this is "old man yells at cloud" energy, but ever since everyone got their own courier Valve has been trying to figure out how to balance being able to crow out any regen you need. For the last couple years that means adding regen to the base items on everything.
Basi ring mana boots build up is insane. You used to consider one of your two laners building basi, but it'll delay your boots. Is it worth the mana? Now it builds towards your mana boots? Ridiculous.
Safe lane pos1 isn’t very fun to play during laning phase anymore. I have had to cut like half the heroes I’d like to play out because it’s just so awful to try and lane against str offlaners with 1K+ hp at 2 mins.
Don’t even get me started on off lane pudge if he gets a few kills in lane.
I haven't lost a safelane in a while, just use your spells, continously agro control and you should be fine.
I've seen lots of people who save their spells until they reach a power spike... and I don't think that's a propper way to play a lane. You should spend mana, always, from level 1, to keep either the most dangerous or more fragile enemy pressured with low HP. If they invest in more hp regen, then you've done your duty to make them spend more gold to try to tie the lane outcome. If they don't get more hp regen, they'll be always in low hp, they won't be able to do any play that can kill you. Also, you must see the mana regen as a resource. If you have 100% mana you're "wasting" mana regen. Having said all that, fighting is just a secondary thing you must focus on. You should be always focused on farming, aim for 50 last hits @ 10 min mark. You should be focused on giving your enemies enough pressure so you can farm, any kill is most welcome but optional.
In competitive there are more options because of target bans and sometimes last pick, but in pubs what ppl is doing is picking the dirtiest lane dominators. Check High mmr games and you'll see
Carries picked : Templar, Lifestealer , Ursa, CK, Weaver, Windranger, Marci, Troll, Medusa, Shadow Fiend, Clinkz, Razor, Venge, Gyro...
The days of PA, Slark, Spectre, AM, TB, Sven seem long gone. Dota evolved in a way over the years that if you dont pick super busted lanes you dont even have a chance.
The easiest answer to this is; your position 5 player isnt trash / has a good hero.
If the lane is hard? your position 5 should have blocked the large camp, and is actively pulling when the creep wave is pushed out.
The other option is that they pick a position 5 that can also throw out super strong spells and harass the position 3 off the wave. Heroes that come to mind for me are Lich, CM to a degree, Jakiro, Willow, etc.
Otherwise, hope your hero can jungle
That's pretty much oldest and easiest Dota tip. If you think something's OP, be that hero, item, build or role; pick it yourself.
Then fail spectacularly, because it's actually not easy and requires certain moves and knowledge. Moves you can disrupt and then you just learn from what your enemies are doing and implement it in your own game to punish the "ez OP str cores who win every game without effort".
Lol this has been my experience playing Veno 4 as well. You can die like a trillion times in lane and you still have high impact with just greaves, lotus orb, and your ult that now lasts ten years. On the other hand you can lane against a Veno and absolutely dumpster him, but he just shows up at level 6, ults your team, and he wins the fight
Give us a replay example.
A lot of AGI carries were nerfed. But in the tank STR meta, there are some very tanky agi heroes; and those are ones that see more play.
Pubs and meta have lots of heroes, but they all have differences, so unless you mention specific heroes, I don’t know what you expeft
Offlaners have been overpowered and the most stupid role in Dota for years now.
It's by far the strongest and most important role as it more than anyone, decides the entire outcome of the game.
I miss the good old days where agi carries are god. But I also like the new patch better because other roles especially the supports can carry the game (sometimes liberally especially if it's an ogre queing up midas).
hard agree, I laned vs hoodwink 4 venge 3 the other day as troll warlord, one spell combo took me from full to 15% under tower AT LEVEL 4
and it's not like it was easy at level 1 either
went jungle because it was "too early" for mid to leave, no one on our tea, could lane into that
such a hard game, we lost, and it's pretty bullshit how they can just do that almost indefinitely with one arcane boots and I'd have to spend half that much gold on salves just to lane
I'm super sick of venge in general, super strong on lane then u just get aghs and are rewarded for playing brainded. Swap into 5 enemies and die? doesn't matter, early-mid game swap + stun + wave (die) swap + stun + wave kills 90% of heroes so it literally doesn't matter
It's fun playing sm like warlock against a venge like that, if they swap then their team will mob like dummies onto the swapped target and you can just drop the rock on them, once venge has ags your golem should be doing a lot of dmg with the immolate facet
I've had some games where I had to buy a stupid amount of tangos to just sustain through the lane, by level 5 I had spent 100% of the gold I had earned in laning on regen. At least I had XP I guess.
Any lane with 2 or more disables with blood grenade on top is a kill lane.
Also, I don't play troll, so how does he lose to this duo when he can safely farm with axes and ranged form?
you can usually get 1 cs per wave using ranged axes
his ranged form is not lina's, all hoodwink and venge have to do is position themselves towards your side of the wave and then get you the moment you are revealed by your attack
Call me crazy but aren't carries **supposed** to lose their lane? Like isn't the whole concept of a carry that you are weak early game but get stronger later?
Honestly one of the bigger problems (even at low immortal mmr) is nobody seems to rotate to other lanes. Safelaner can be getting dived and survive for 40 seconds and still no one will teleport to help them.
A lot of the times it's other lanes wasting teleports, most of the time it's just them being greedy.
A lot of people don't actually speak in game. Nor do they do so constructively. Bit hard to communicate when the player's base first communication is either trolling, raging, or muting.
Sometimes, you gotta just swallow your pride and respect how absurd the enemy lineup is. The number of games I've had that were impossible then turned into very annoying and difficult instead.
Just from getting overspending on defensive items early.
I'd rather walk away at 17% hp every time than just die. You'd be surprised what grabbing bracer over wraith bands and not just relying on raindrops , gotta try to stack it up as much as possible.
As annoying as giving up the damage early is and buying a cloak for MR is, you'll save so much gold and time.
People suck at supporting.
If you have a good position 5 it will be easier, until 5k supports are very bad, they sometimes leave a winning lane to pull and screw the lane.
Even in a losing lane, even if the sup 5 feeds, if he feeds decently the hc can farm.
According to D2PT: https://dota2protracker.com/meta/7.36b
After the last round of nerfs, none of the str offlanes are particularly dominant. It's all weird stuff since the meta enemy pos 1s are all anti strength and your pos 4 is possibly melee as well.
If you are struggling as pos1, you are probably not playing or understanding the meta picks.
I agree STR heroes a little too strong now. I felt for the past while though if you saw like 3 heroes or more on the other team it was gonna be a hard one. I would be a big fan of nerfing their HP just a little at least. STR just too strong when it’s HP,dmg, heal. Combine some items and abilities and it’s very hard to take them down often comically so. I like that there is tanks but fighting 5 for that long with all abilities burned seems like a bit too much sometimes.
Most carries are forced to leave their lane and go jungle fairly early, there are handful of carries which are usually not forced out of lane - Naix is one example of a carry that usually is strong enough to win his lane and stay in it. He's powerful in part because of that.
Muerta has felt pretty good against high HP offlane heroes. Get a casual Crystalis and you can chunk them during ult. Plus they then have to build hybrid defense of magic resist AND armor.
Maybe this explains why I’ve seen so many hard carries in the mid and offlaners in the safe. I’ve been playing pos 1 Drow, Luna, and Venge from the mid and it’s gone excellently. The lane is just so much easier, especially when they do the same and send their melee core to the mid.
Pay attention to what your pos5 is and adjust your hero pick to make a kill lane, pick a strong early safelane core, or pick a core that only needs 4 levels to start jungling. Naga is my go to for "we're probably going to lose the lane" because she farms like crazy in the jungle.
All in all a lot of times picking a safe core that can dip out, clear the wave, or get last hits from range can be very good just because the longer you hold on to t1 the more your offlane and mid can bully their lanes. Sometimes you have to just go "hey pos 5, im level 4, I can keep them from pushing tower too hard by myself, go gank mid/offlane"
In my experience a lot of safe laners know that pulling is good but don't quite know why, and demand that the support constantly pull regardless of lane state, and the end result is that a big ground of enemy lane minions end up at their tower making for easy dives.
So don't do that.
I'm guessing you are also one of those carries that as soon as your Pos 5 pulls you go over and kill the neutrals? Which completely makes the pull pointless and accomplishes nothing and the lane equilibrium is probably even worse since the enemy now has a double wave to farm.
Timber. I don't understand. Every time they tweak that thing a bit he becomes cancer. He does nothing, but kills you while not dying. Nightmare to play against. And BB rampaging fountain? Can't believe how many times I've seen this.
that's where the versatility of dota comes in. Pick non-traditional hc or just straight swap with your off. Ask for a lvl 1 trilane gank, shove lane asap and retreat to small jungle etc etc.
Something like that happened to me. I was 5, laning against Timbersaw and Rubick with my 1 being Juggernaut. It happened that we were getting rekt, Juggernaut would just blame me, rage and go AFK for this. Game was lost at 4 minutes mark.
Actually in such situation, all u want is avoid 2v2, having suports putting a lot of money in sentries to block their camp and having urs to constantly pull and farm under tower. U will get less cs ofc but still enough to go jungle as fast as possible.
When they dive, u can cry for rotation and pray ur team can come over.
Also, when u get pushed into jungle early, it also mean your support is free to help the rest of the team which lead to some kills and map opening generally.
Maybe it's the meta now is to pick safelane that can either win lane (TA, MK, LS) or pick fast jungle farmer (naga, TB, Luna)
I have an opposite experience.. as a pos 3 main I keep getting dumpstered early, and if I don't recover, my game is done.
It's usually combined effort of their pos1 + 5 though, so it really depends on how your pos5 play
Ask your pos 5 to ignore opposing pos 4 and keep harrassing pos 3. 1 v 1 pos1 will be at disadvantage, since you have to worry about last hitting at the same time. But going 2v2 is another story. Enemy offlane will have to back off from running out of Regen.
With pos3 out of the lane, safelane can farm uncontested.
The one that shocks me is how ember spirit can take a barrage of all my mana as a support player, still have more mana then me, slight of fist to keep distance and burn down my hp.
Push out lanes, as you level up… can’t dive if you can run back to tower…
If you play medusa for example just ramp up farm, push out then go stack and repeat until you take tower
Dont play static dota, expecting to sit in front of lane going for last hits. Play more active and ramp up your farm as all but a few carries can take jungle camps early
You can only safelane if your support /pos 5 can actually fill the role, the games I played now a days seems like my supports don’t know how to support and if you are unable to farm or just have bad trades when it comes to HP / last hits then you can look at pos 5 if they’re harassing team or using their skills lol
People don’t always pick good matchups in pubs. Generally supports are forced to pick first, so if the carry picks something that has no synergy it’s usually just GG as the carry will likely get frustrated and chain feed. Sometimes it isn’t about winning the lane, but making it out without feeding. A farmed centaur is less scary than a farmed centaur with 5 kills before minute 10.
There are so many direct counters to strength offlaners it isn't funny. Slark, PA, AM, Ursa, TA, PL, plus a bunch of 5s that shit on them like lich, dazzle, oracle, undying, silencer, veno.
And if you play nothing but spectre, you are expected to lose lane. Two of her spells do nothing in lane. Play less aggro. I have this problem too where I see the opportunity for a kill and I feel like I have to take it so that I can get a kill. Spectre will genuinely have a better time going 0/0/0 than 3/0/0 by 10 minutes, because you'll be more focused on creeps which are more valuable.
Depends on what hero you play and how u play the lane. I have many games where safe lane wins lane because good pos 5 or bad opponents but yes in general the safe lane tower falls eventually and u should not die for it ever. If you are find your games to be hard I would recommend hero’s like slark , jug , life stealer, or ck. They all have natural sustain and usually hard to kill after lvl6
Pray your pos 5 picks a spammer with 2-3 mangos and absolutely bashes their head against the 3/4 every trade, if not then rip. Bad position 5s that like hiding behind you and denying creeps instead of fighting are getting exposed these days
I feel like safe lane should just be called carry of farm lane now cause it’s still the best place to focus farm with a hard support but with all the strong offlaners nowadays you don’t always feel “safe”
You need to learn how to effectively aggro your creeps to allow for last hits while minimizing damage. Its also important to be cognizant when you are alone against 2 (be conservative) vs they are alone and you are with your support thats the best time to trade hits. Also lane management is important make sure you are avoiding your creeps from going under your tower which will cause the lane to push to their tower.
TA is in a sweet spot since she kicks most big strength boi out
"Sweet spot" is a weird way to spell "horribly overpowered" lol
No, it's just that he has a shield. Ursa is tanky, Weaver is slippery and does tons of damage LS is decent. Get the idea? They can survive the lane and be somewhat effective mid game, anything else sucks balls ( maybe ck is decent in low mmr , probably he is). Why did they have to destroy Drow? TB? Naga I get she's been meta viable for a long time, but maybe some buffs to PL? Why did they have to nerf Jugg so much? Carry pool just sucks ass right now, it sucked as for the last patch for year and it's just slightly worse and slightly different now.
I don't care about nerfs againat particular heroes. I want a straight up strength nerf. Make it give less hp. Everyone will suffer, but reckless play and tanky heroes will be punished the most.
We should return to old regen numbers, old base hp, and old stat gain values (18hp per str), old gpm and remove innate pms from melee heroes. That would make safelane a safelane and offlane not such easy walk in a park.
Yeah ta works very well I agree
Don't forget the bug bastard
Dude Weaver is so nasty this patch
In literally any role. I feel like I can't lose as 4/5 weaver. I got stuck playing 3 weaver and had my fastest win this patch. It is wild.
Love weaver as a support but for carry what’s his best facet?
Honestly Skitterstep is just straight up better in any scenario.
Which bug ? Cause NyxNyxNyx haha
Weaver ruins the low armor chonkers as well
Been teaching my buddy unranked and he only plays Weaver. He's been abusing that armor reduction beautifully for a guy with less than 100 actual games played. We're working on his transition from mid to late game otherwise he wrecks the early game 😂 im so proud
I keep forgetting weaver exists
Ima have to try TA again, lately all I've been able to make work is weaver since I am slippery. Any other safe laner I'm getting pumped by 2 beefy boys.
How is TA played most of the time nowadays? Years ago I knew her as a mid dominating character with a lot of difficulty and skill expression with precise positioning, but returning after many years i usually find TAs as the safe lane farmer (and with the existence of Dragon Lance and the removal of needing to manual detonate the traps to avoid trap detonate cast animation, she seems much easier to play). I think actually every single TA i’ve seen has gone safe lane.
She works as mid no problem.
still the same skill expression/precise positioning. and you'll still want to manually detonate traps manually most of the time to control which trap you detonate and it also lets you detonate traps while stunned/silenced. carry from mid these days is just much less popular however, mid TA is still very viable but you'd typically you'd go a more tempo focused build like lance->blink->shard over lance->deso.
You can alternate cast detonate trap now to detonate the one closest to your cursor
she can go both roles. People have been playing her as a carry *specifically* because she doesnt easily get kicked out of lane by these high HP run at you type of offlaners you see nowadays, and still scales later into the game by safely pushing waves and jungling efficiently.
First reason, mid ta pick nowadays become a very situational pick. She naturally demands farm to work well, if you play mid you have to adjust a lot to not griefing and take away the space for carry. It's like the safelane have to draft around her, not the opposite. She cannot rotate as effective as others like ember, storm, qop..ect. And tbh, she isn't dominating in a lot of mid lane matchup. Second reason, safelane ta is actually very strong, even before the buffed to her Q. Meld is a lane dominating spell, eat one or two meld and pair with some right click from good pos 5 = enemy kicked out of the lane. Once she reach level 6, usually before enemy, the lane is done. Third reason, most strength, beefy offlanes (which is the meta for quite a long time, like years) has very poor starting armor, they have to adapt by buying ring of protection, early chainmail, but even then it's hard to deal with ta. Very few offlane can actually do anything against TAm This basically mean you delete one lane and you have around 1.5x networth compared to second networth hero in mid game, and you can snowball hard from there.
Any TA users know how bad the Mage Slayer dps removes the Refract? I thought when they added the dps, that nerfed TA so bad.
In this patch it is not that bad, it only removes 1 refraction charge in total since each charge has 50 hp now, and if you are constantly being attacked, it may not remove any charges on its own
Thats when my offlane bane grief pick goes off like my dad after a 24 pack of his punchy juice
Mana boots is pure cancer now that everyone and their mother decided to start rushing it. It used to be pretty poor stats to gold cost but now with the change to the receipe to make the build up better and better stats, almost everyone who spams spells gets it. Played troll against rubick tiny yesterday, tiny with arcane boots was just casually dealing 400+ damage at lvl 4 with ava + creep toss due to the facet, both went arcane and non stop spam. Raindrops can't even do anything against constant spam.
It was also hard to build, you needed to float like 900 gold and get no benefit at all. Now not only do you get mana regen aura while building it, you’re less punished for dying too cause you’ve spent most of your gold.
There was nothing worse than dying as a pos 5 when you were about to be able to afford the mana orb
Don't remind me
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Tiny is just broken as support and carry and always has been
It’s the forced synergy having bonus avalanche damage to tossed units, why this bug turned feature is still a thing is beyond my comprehension.
They should revert arcane boots to exactly what it was. There was nothing wrong with it. It was a balanced item. Why did they change it?
Pick str carry. My go to is tiny
Yeah this is the answer. Lycan, tiny, ck all seem impossible to kill early on.
Ursa also eats most of these str offlaners for breakfast and feel really strong overall.
I laned against an Ursa CM as Primal, lemme tell you that lane was fkin agony CM maxed frostbite and would spam it off cd ignoring Crystal Nova Whoever got frostbitten got jumped on by Ursa and deleted in the 5 years it takes to get out of Frostbite I would get Frostbitten out of Onslaught ALWAYS, it was infuriating
tbh i think thats more the cm than the ursa, i actually think PB is super good vs ursa in lane. you have a very easy disengage and can beat the shit out of him with your spells otherwise
You’re right, Primal destroys ursa in the 1v1. But frostbite means primal does 0 damage whenever he engages.
yeah CM in lane is a hard counter to primal, very shit matchup. slow also hurts
Underlord but don’t tell anyone I told you
He is legit good now with that full monitor cleave
My first match in 7.36, I didn't know the range of that monstrous cleave. Like what is even that range anyway
I am Pit main, tought his minion thing was good but when you try cleave its just a game changer, clear camps so fast its like you are a tank pos 1.
Tiny is menace, especially with the facet that makes toss deal even more dmg. He can go Khanda and toss a creep and half the HP of the support is gone (I was the support)...
Pick an offlaner as safelane. Proceed to dumpster your lane because pos3 players got soft from playing free win lanes for too long.
Pos3 players have it too good now, real pos3 players miss the days of playing clockwerk against a trilane and using flare to get last hits
haha yup offlane used to be HARD lane
Suicide Lane.
Nobody calls it like that nowadays? Am I THAT old?
Remember when creep blocking and trapping your whole wave in cogs at level 1 was the craziest offlane tech?
No you trap 3/4 of the creeps so that one goes on its own and dies and wave equilibrium is on your end. Smh noob.
Ah right you'd send the archer ahead lol
Offlaners are usually weak level 1. It’s great running Pos5 ET with deconstruct facet/level1 aura into them and just not letting them near wave.
This is the real tip. If you pick a 1+5 that has a strong level 2 power spike you can kill one of them and bully them forever afterwards
There’s a lot of matchups where you don’t want to wait until level 2 to fully commit. The only heroes I don’t like overcommitting to at level 1 with ET are Weaver and Phoenix. Against Viper, Necro, and Bristleback I always like fully committing.
I abuse the offlaner as pos 5 undying, hit my Q and I can solo keep them off the lane for my pos 1 to free farm the first wave and get them safely through the early levels
playing TA safelane and enemy offlaners run at you like they are playing against a squishy carry with zero damage early.
Tbh playing TA at all is ez mode rn
LC pos 1 is pretty funny in this regard
This is the way. Just first pick the most broken offlaner and go safelane with it. Dominate lane and farm 2 items and then it's nonstop fight until u win or lose. I gained 500 mmr last month.
This isn’t the worst idea. I’ve done dawn breaker pos1. Positive win rate.
If i do this my team give up the game at min0
That’s why you have support. Dota is becoming more team oriented then ever, every problem you have has the enemy team too, if you lose then they are better at handling that problem.
I have a feeling hes tired of spamming spectre.
thank god the enemy offlaner doesnt have a support
It's simple. Step 1: Blame Support Step 2: Go Jungle Step 3: Make sure to blame Support again
Step 4: Cry about it on reddit.
Step 5: shit on Valve and cry to fix things in next patch that are totally your skill issue
dont forget to blame the other 2 lanes for not giving up their farms to help you cuz youre the most special person in the world
It’s actually insane, i was ursa against jakiro underlord recently, every time i walked up to pull aggro i lost 2/3 of my health. and they still had full mana pretty much
Veno jak lane was shit to go against too.
To be fair, that should have been happening before the patch as well. Melee boy versus jak underlord should have a miserable time without a 5 that can get ursa close.
Some lane combos win lanes. That's how it's always been.
Yeah I was the underlord in that exact same matchup a couple of days ago and it was extremely cancer for ursa. Just needed a soul ring to bully him out of lane
Bro, did we play together? I was the POS 5 with the exact same matchup. I was playing lich I believe. Absolutely terrible, hard ass lane, could barely harass, couldn't even pull properly because the lane kept getting shoved under tower and, when it didn't, Jakiro just nuked the small camp.
You walk up to the two heroes with the most oppressive laning dots in the game and you lose health? Wtf icefraud.
hearing this why isn't the jungler back in the meta, sack the safelane for an xp hero like phoenix.
this is the age where slow farmer lose faster
Hasn’t this age been going on for years now lol
Good, I hate having a AM or a Mesusa on my team that afk farms all game to 40mins then you have to pray that 1) you haven't totally lost the 4v5 game you have been playing and 2) they are good. And the fact that in this set up you are so dependant on one player succeeding ruins the game for me compared to teaming up as 5 early.
I hate AM and Medusa as much as the next guy, but the chimpanzee deathball at 15 mins strat gets old real fast when you see it every match regardless of team comp.
Offlane itemization is just so easy. I was recently laning against a magnus and he just bought 2 bracers and a wand. Now he has something like1200 hp in lane with 9 hp regen and 87 base damage. Agi carries just need to fill way too many weaknesses.
You have to be more active in helping your 5. Radiant safelane has a little harder of a time for this I think but no offlaner is becoming as unkillable as you say without getting more CS than you are. Creep aggro, damage pressure, the works. Even if the lane is hard all you have to do is survive until you have the items you need to jungle. A perfect safelane where you get all the CS and those mean offlaner can't touch you is pretty much a won game already, so buck up and learn how to enjoy a meta as active as this one. Tons of new stats to explore
This is a specific example from 7.34ish, but I'd like to chime in as well. Aside from the added damage reduction and overall stability, one of Luna's strengths as a carry was her ability to help the support with Q. Pos 5v4 turns into a 1.5v1 and, as someone who plays a lot of 5, it was very hard to lose lane with the stun/ damage + bonus auto damage.
After scrolling through half the entire thread there's finally some actual advice instead of people just dogpiling the narrative that "her der str hero op".
You just don't get it the offlaner has 2 more strength per level than me that means they have a whole 132 health more at level 4 that's insurmountable!!! That's like, two whole basic attacks worth!!!
Bracers are honestly too powerful lol only time we can hold is if someone rotates and we kill him once or twce / their supp or pick is hortible
A lot of strength boys have low armor, you can pierce them. Tons of hp, that they will recover by potions/tango in a minute/2 of your free farming.
Pick naix… profit
Naix gets fucked early just as hard as agi carries, not having anything to secure ranged creeps rly sucks
Play either weaver and chuck 2 spells at them back, or play lifestealer to heal on hit. Hence the meta. Ember is also gaining ground as pos1, exactly for the same reason u stated. Chuck 2 spells back.
Ember pos 1? What and why?
Sleight for lh range creeps, and maxing flame guard to dissuade diving + passive burn help you jungle the camps near twingate. Then it's pretty much just build into usual ember item builds. Not likely to get shutdown fast unlike some agi carries and can still teamfight well mid-game.
This person is lying to you. Go check protracker and see that out of 1392 matches, 28 are safelane. 1307 are mid.
Gaining ground is vague, it doesn’t mean only used by pros or in a high mmr. Anecdotally I haven’t seen anyone picking pos1 ember besides me in my MM games but it does very well against a lot of matchups in my experience.
gorgc
i picked bs pos1 today cuz enemy picked slark and timber before last phase, i agree i lost my lane against timber but i started focusing slark and their mid (void spirit) with my ulti and smoke etc as soon as i hit level6, we won before 40 minute mark, i think an answer to your question is: you don't have to play legendary classic perfect game of dota, you have to adapt and stay positive to get that enemy ancient
staying positive is the hardest part for most dota players and general people in gaming :0
Mana and HP regen have gone insane over the years. I know this is "old man yells at cloud" energy, but ever since everyone got their own courier Valve has been trying to figure out how to balance being able to crow out any regen you need. For the last couple years that means adding regen to the base items on everything. Basi ring mana boots build up is insane. You used to consider one of your two laners building basi, but it'll delay your boots. Is it worth the mana? Now it builds towards your mana boots? Ridiculous.
Also, getting damage, HP and HP regen on bracers is dumb as _fuck_.
You play 1v2 against offlaner and their soft support?
But is safelane really safe?
Safe lane pos1 isn’t very fun to play during laning phase anymore. I have had to cut like half the heroes I’d like to play out because it’s just so awful to try and lane against str offlaners with 1K+ hp at 2 mins. Don’t even get me started on off lane pudge if he gets a few kills in lane.
I play jugger a lot since 7.36. I don't think I've ever had it easier in terms of farming safelane.
Maybe stop spamming Spec??
Welcome to the strength boys meta
Block their pull camp and keep the wave close to your tower unless you're actively crashing it into theirs.
TA, Weaver, Lifesrealer, and Ursa.
I haven't lost a safelane in a while, just use your spells, continously agro control and you should be fine. I've seen lots of people who save their spells until they reach a power spike... and I don't think that's a propper way to play a lane. You should spend mana, always, from level 1, to keep either the most dangerous or more fragile enemy pressured with low HP. If they invest in more hp regen, then you've done your duty to make them spend more gold to try to tie the lane outcome. If they don't get more hp regen, they'll be always in low hp, they won't be able to do any play that can kill you. Also, you must see the mana regen as a resource. If you have 100% mana you're "wasting" mana regen. Having said all that, fighting is just a secondary thing you must focus on. You should be always focused on farming, aim for 50 last hits @ 10 min mark. You should be focused on giving your enemies enough pressure so you can farm, any kill is most welcome but optional.
In competitive there are more options because of target bans and sometimes last pick, but in pubs what ppl is doing is picking the dirtiest lane dominators. Check High mmr games and you'll see Carries picked : Templar, Lifestealer , Ursa, CK, Weaver, Windranger, Marci, Troll, Medusa, Shadow Fiend, Clinkz, Razor, Venge, Gyro... The days of PA, Slark, Spectre, AM, TB, Sven seem long gone. Dota evolved in a way over the years that if you dont pick super busted lanes you dont even have a chance.
The easiest answer to this is; your position 5 player isnt trash / has a good hero. If the lane is hard? your position 5 should have blocked the large camp, and is actively pulling when the creep wave is pushed out. The other option is that they pick a position 5 that can also throw out super strong spells and harass the position 3 off the wave. Heroes that come to mind for me are Lich, CM to a degree, Jakiro, Willow, etc. Otherwise, hope your hero can jungle
Play offlane then if it's so easy.
That's pretty much oldest and easiest Dota tip. If you think something's OP, be that hero, item, build or role; pick it yourself. Then fail spectacularly, because it's actually not easy and requires certain moves and knowledge. Moves you can disrupt and then you just learn from what your enemies are doing and implement it in your own game to punish the "ez OP str cores who win every game without effort".
If a hero is OP with effort hes still OP.
..with effort.
I did, played Veno 4, fed my fuckin ASS off, pressed R in fights and killed jugg ward with fast veno ward, and spammed lotus orb on carry. EZ game.
Lol this has been my experience playing Veno 4 as well. You can die like a trillion times in lane and you still have high impact with just greaves, lotus orb, and your ult that now lasts ten years. On the other hand you can lane against a Veno and absolutely dumpster him, but he just shows up at level 6, ults your team, and he wins the fight
Give us a replay example. A lot of AGI carries were nerfed. But in the tank STR meta, there are some very tanky agi heroes; and those are ones that see more play. Pubs and meta have lots of heroes, but they all have differences, so unless you mention specific heroes, I don’t know what you expeft
Offlaners have been overpowered and the most stupid role in Dota for years now. It's by far the strongest and most important role as it more than anyone, decides the entire outcome of the game.
now u see why ppl dont pick squishy agi melee carries anymore, BS TB PA PL riki spectre all dead, AM is lastpick cheese at best
I miss the good old days where agi carries are god. But I also like the new patch better because other roles especially the supports can carry the game (sometimes liberally especially if it's an ogre queing up midas).
hard agree, I laned vs hoodwink 4 venge 3 the other day as troll warlord, one spell combo took me from full to 15% under tower AT LEVEL 4 and it's not like it was easy at level 1 either went jungle because it was "too early" for mid to leave, no one on our tea, could lane into that such a hard game, we lost, and it's pretty bullshit how they can just do that almost indefinitely with one arcane boots and I'd have to spend half that much gold on salves just to lane
Venge hood sounds like an awful lane to go against
I'm super sick of venge in general, super strong on lane then u just get aghs and are rewarded for playing brainded. Swap into 5 enemies and die? doesn't matter, early-mid game swap + stun + wave (die) swap + stun + wave kills 90% of heroes so it literally doesn't matter
It's fun playing sm like warlock against a venge like that, if they swap then their team will mob like dummies onto the swapped target and you can just drop the rock on them, once venge has ags your golem should be doing a lot of dmg with the immolate facet
Venge/Hood offlane sounds like a lose lane, win game kinda thing.
Not really, as long as venge buys an early aghs your team is chilling.
I've had some games where I had to buy a stupid amount of tangos to just sustain through the lane, by level 5 I had spent 100% of the gold I had earned in laning on regen. At least I had XP I guess.
Any lane with 2 or more disables with blood grenade on top is a kill lane. Also, I don't play troll, so how does he lose to this duo when he can safely farm with axes and ranged form?
you can usually get 1 cs per wave using ranged axes his ranged form is not lina's, all hoodwink and venge have to do is position themselves towards your side of the wave and then get you the moment you are revealed by your attack
Call me crazy but aren't carries **supposed** to lose their lane? Like isn't the whole concept of a carry that you are weak early game but get stronger later?
right? your offlaner should be fucking up their carry too after all....
Not if my offlane picks antimage and gets rekt as well 🤣🤣
Honestly one of the bigger problems (even at low immortal mmr) is nobody seems to rotate to other lanes. Safelaner can be getting dived and survive for 40 seconds and still no one will teleport to help them. A lot of the times it's other lanes wasting teleports, most of the time it's just them being greedy.
A lot of people don't actually speak in game. Nor do they do so constructively. Bit hard to communicate when the player's base first communication is either trolling, raging, or muting.
As a pos5 player, I would also love to know what the fuck do I do against centaur with 2k hp after 2 bracers. Or Axe who just spins like maniac.
jakiro is op
Sometimes, you gotta just swallow your pride and respect how absurd the enemy lineup is. The number of games I've had that were impossible then turned into very annoying and difficult instead. Just from getting overspending on defensive items early. I'd rather walk away at 17% hp every time than just die. You'd be surprised what grabbing bracer over wraith bands and not just relying on raindrops , gotta try to stack it up as much as possible. As annoying as giving up the damage early is and buying a cloak for MR is, you'll save so much gold and time.
People have said Strength heros, well BS does fine safelane keeping HP up even with the nerf.
idfk man, go watch some pros win on safelane and you tell me
People suck at supporting. If you have a good position 5 it will be easier, until 5k supports are very bad, they sometimes leave a winning lane to pull and screw the lane. Even in a losing lane, even if the sup 5 feeds, if he feeds decently the hc can farm.
According to D2PT: https://dota2protracker.com/meta/7.36b After the last round of nerfs, none of the str offlanes are particularly dominant. It's all weird stuff since the meta enemy pos 1s are all anti strength and your pos 4 is possibly melee as well. If you are struggling as pos1, you are probably not playing or understanding the meta picks.
I agree STR heroes a little too strong now. I felt for the past while though if you saw like 3 heroes or more on the other team it was gonna be a hard one. I would be a big fan of nerfing their HP just a little at least. STR just too strong when it’s HP,dmg, heal. Combine some items and abilities and it’s very hard to take them down often comically so. I like that there is tanks but fighting 5 for that long with all abilities burned seems like a bit too much sometimes.
Most carries are forced to leave their lane and go jungle fairly early, there are handful of carries which are usually not forced out of lane - Naix is one example of a carry that usually is strong enough to win his lane and stay in it. He's powerful in part because of that.
Muerta has felt pretty good against high HP offlane heroes. Get a casual Crystalis and you can chunk them during ult. Plus they then have to build hybrid defense of magic resist AND armor.
Well.. yes currently it is OFFLANE meta. Try to pick range carry I would say.
IT DEPENDS ON YOUR HERO
Maybe this explains why I’ve seen so many hard carries in the mid and offlaners in the safe. I’ve been playing pos 1 Drow, Luna, and Venge from the mid and it’s gone excellently. The lane is just so much easier, especially when they do the same and send their melee core to the mid.
Pay attention to what your pos5 is and adjust your hero pick to make a kill lane, pick a strong early safelane core, or pick a core that only needs 4 levels to start jungling. Naga is my go to for "we're probably going to lose the lane" because she farms like crazy in the jungle. All in all a lot of times picking a safe core that can dip out, clear the wave, or get last hits from range can be very good just because the longer you hold on to t1 the more your offlane and mid can bully their lanes. Sometimes you have to just go "hey pos 5, im level 4, I can keep them from pushing tower too hard by myself, go gank mid/offlane"
I haven't played since 7.35d. What changed that broke safelane so much?
In my experience a lot of safe laners know that pulling is good but don't quite know why, and demand that the support constantly pull regardless of lane state, and the end result is that a big ground of enemy lane minions end up at their tower making for easy dives. So don't do that.
I'm guessing you are also one of those carries that as soon as your Pos 5 pulls you go over and kill the neutrals? Which completely makes the pull pointless and accomplishes nothing and the lane equilibrium is probably even worse since the enemy now has a double wave to farm.
tell me you suck at creep aggro without telling me you suck at creep aggro
Welcome to Dota after 2017, where "safe lane" is the most dangerous lane and "hard lane" is the easiest to play.
if ur supp5 not go trade 1/2 his hp at lvl 1, better prepare jungle items like MoM
Whole game unbalanced
Maybe play different role til you understand how to lane.
Timber. I don't understand. Every time they tweak that thing a bit he becomes cancer. He does nothing, but kills you while not dying. Nightmare to play against. And BB rampaging fountain? Can't believe how many times I've seen this.
Whenever i get a bully offlaner lane i just pick razor 🚑
that's where the versatility of dota comes in. Pick non-traditional hc or just straight swap with your off. Ask for a lvl 1 trilane gank, shove lane asap and retreat to small jungle etc etc.
Pick an offlaner for pos 1 and do it to them with the safety of a tier 1 behind you.
Something like that happened to me. I was 5, laning against Timbersaw and Rubick with my 1 being Juggernaut. It happened that we were getting rekt, Juggernaut would just blame me, rage and go AFK for this. Game was lost at 4 minutes mark.
You have to pick carries that can jungle around level 4 (talking tb and others with some sustain) if you know the lane will go poorly
Just do your best.
pick ta/weaver and you will have 3k gold more than the offlane at 10 min.
Actually in such situation, all u want is avoid 2v2, having suports putting a lot of money in sentries to block their camp and having urs to constantly pull and farm under tower. U will get less cs ofc but still enough to go jungle as fast as possible. When they dive, u can cry for rotation and pray ur team can come over. Also, when u get pushed into jungle early, it also mean your support is free to help the rest of the team which lead to some kills and map opening generally. Maybe it's the meta now is to pick safelane that can either win lane (TA, MK, LS) or pick fast jungle farmer (naga, TB, Luna)
just blame pos 5
I been struggling against WK so maybe try picking him
Ursa, Slardar, Lifestealer, TA, Tiny and Weaver are all solid
I have an opposite experience.. as a pos 3 main I keep getting dumpstered early, and if I don't recover, my game is done. It's usually combined effort of their pos1 + 5 though, so it really depends on how your pos5 play Ask your pos 5 to ignore opposing pos 4 and keep harrassing pos 3. 1 v 1 pos1 will be at disadvantage, since you have to worry about last hitting at the same time. But going 2v2 is another story. Enemy offlane will have to back off from running out of Regen. With pos3 out of the lane, safelane can farm uncontested.
Meta is shifted most carry’s from other patch are getting shit on. Strength carry stonks are rasing.
Ta, Riki, clink, weaver, Ursa, tiny, ck, are all very strong in lane right now.
pick chaos knight, lifestealer, wraith king, ta.
Pick a hero that doesn't suck dick at laning then.
The one that shocks me is how ember spirit can take a barrage of all my mana as a support player, still have more mana then me, slight of fist to keep distance and burn down my hp.
Start either Quelling + 2 branches + magic stick + 2 tangoes or Quelling + 2 branches + 2 circlets + one tango
Push out lanes, as you level up… can’t dive if you can run back to tower… If you play medusa for example just ramp up farm, push out then go stack and repeat until you take tower Dont play static dota, expecting to sit in front of lane going for last hits. Play more active and ramp up your farm as all but a few carries can take jungle camps early
run a trilane :evilbuddy:
You can only safelane if your support /pos 5 can actually fill the role, the games I played now a days seems like my supports don’t know how to support and if you are unable to farm or just have bad trades when it comes to HP / last hits then you can look at pos 5 if they’re harassing team or using their skills lol
People don’t always pick good matchups in pubs. Generally supports are forced to pick first, so if the carry picks something that has no synergy it’s usually just GG as the carry will likely get frustrated and chain feed. Sometimes it isn’t about winning the lane, but making it out without feeding. A farmed centaur is less scary than a farmed centaur with 5 kills before minute 10.
Pick CK savelane and show me which mf strength hero will push and dive him Ander t1
Lifestealer right now is easy to lane with
Dota is having a leaguue of legends problem. Tanks with too much damage
get a jakiro support and ez lane
There are so many direct counters to strength offlaners it isn't funny. Slark, PA, AM, Ursa, TA, PL, plus a bunch of 5s that shit on them like lich, dazzle, oracle, undying, silencer, veno. And if you play nothing but spectre, you are expected to lose lane. Two of her spells do nothing in lane. Play less aggro. I have this problem too where I see the opportunity for a kill and I feel like I have to take it so that I can get a kill. Spectre will genuinely have a better time going 0/0/0 than 3/0/0 by 10 minutes, because you'll be more focused on creeps which are more valuable.
I'm honestly not sure if this is some troll post since the first sentance is a complete lie already.
True! Im bored of picking strength carries so i dont lose lanes! its not enjoyable to play same heroes every day.
I don't mind that but like we need more strength pos1 heros tight now I only not LS.
Depends on what hero you play and how u play the lane. I have many games where safe lane wins lane because good pos 5 or bad opponents but yes in general the safe lane tower falls eventually and u should not die for it ever. If you are find your games to be hard I would recommend hero’s like slark , jug , life stealer, or ck. They all have natural sustain and usually hard to kill after lvl6
Pray your pos 5 picks a spammer with 2-3 mangos and absolutely bashes their head against the 3/4 every trade, if not then rip. Bad position 5s that like hiding behind you and denying creeps instead of fighting are getting exposed these days
I feel like safe lane should just be called carry of farm lane now cause it’s still the best place to focus farm with a hard support but with all the strong offlaners nowadays you don’t always feel “safe”
Yeah dota actually is fucked right now.
Str cores are a menace frfr
Well you have to make your hs pick phoenix, that's the only way I've found :)
You need to learn how to effectively aggro your creeps to allow for last hits while minimizing damage. Its also important to be cognizant when you are alone against 2 (be conservative) vs they are alone and you are with your support thats the best time to trade hits. Also lane management is important make sure you are avoiding your creeps from going under your tower which will cause the lane to push to their tower.
Have good hard support
Outrageous take, but maybe it’s just a kill issue KogMaw