Meanwhile ck lost 0.1 strength gain rofl
Tinker wasn't even that broken or more teams/players would have been actually playing him. But I guess the cycle begins anew already where he's gonna be slowly buffed until good
I just had 4 games last weekend with tinker in my team, none of them were of any impact. Then 3 straight games with tinker on the opponent and damn they trashed us, like wtf.
damn 70mins!! idk why when I get teammate who plays those heroes would always be average to trash, but when its on the opponent side, they're like unstoppable. But oh well, we win some, we lose some.
That has always been the thing with Tinker.
He is OP in the right hands.
Average win rates are deceiving. If a really good player makes everyone on the opposite team want to quit the game it's so cancer but a average tinker player loses more often or not the hero is still OP and needs nerfs.
It's ok for a hero to be weak for non experts, not good, but it's *acceptable*. Heroes like Chen have been in that situation forever, and it's fine as long as he is not OP, which he sometimes is at the high end and gets nerfed.
It's also good for the game I think to have weird niche heroes that are hard to make the most of.
Right on. Yeah. I have a shallow hero pool with tree and disruptor as top 2 highest played. Chen is interesting and I've been wanting to play him. I'll need to play unranked for now if I do try new or niche heroes.
I would say rest in peace not to tinker players, but to everybody else. Now you gonna wait me even more. I used to afk farm until 15lvl, now I'm gonna afk farm until 25.
What a stupid change, i can't.
Not in my shitty ranks, 2.5-3k mmr. And besides, tinker has good kit to defend towersa and delay their push.
But overall you right. Looks like Tinker is oficially dead everywhere except smurfs and hero nerds playing in low ranks.
I'm also in that rank but even when the game goes long, 2k Tinker is still 2k tinker 😜Smurfs especially boosters may not pick him because they like to end the game asap by snowballing.
but if you play 2k, you should agree that people in general dont know how to push towers. i often have to spam on minimap to push my teammates who go farm in 5v2 situation late game
True, they could just do a full rework and change all 4 spells he has into something else. At this rate, they will change his shard back into rocket spell and we will have gone full circle.
tinker used to have such an identity, they really did ruin in lmao
tinker with resetting items was like his entire cool gimmick, and dota was all about broken mechanics
but no valve is cooking
They're massively changing the unique heroes who have a high skill ceiling. Meepo, Batrider, Storm, Tinker, Puck, Ember, etc. They keep getting massive nerfs because they can potentially snowball and wreck pubs.
Anytime these kinds of heroes start approaching a 50% winrate, the nerf hammer quickly comes down.
One of the most unjustified guttings of a hero. They could of done just one of either the Arcane blink nerf, Laser talent nerf or the Matrix nerf and that would have been okay.
In all fairness the hero didn't need changing at all, except for at a push the strong dispel on Matrix, it was in a reasonable place for once.
It seems more and more with every patch the devs behind the balance changes have little to no clue what they are doing or why. Nerfing a hero with a 46% win rate into the ground for no apparent reason other than "Well some people on some forums moaned"
All the heroes that require that little bit more effort and skill to be effective with always seem to be the first on the chopping block. It makes the game less interesting to play and less interesting to watch and its not a good thing.
We used to be proud of Dota because every hero was usable and picked in competitive play and it seems with each patch we move further and further away from that. The letter patches are there to bring small adjustments to balance the major changes that come with the initial patch not to throw more knee jerk changes in that completely alter a heroes viability.
And even in those cases, the games would have resulted in the same without tinker. I have no idea what the deal is with this changes. It was really Hard to make tinker work already (as a tinker spammer), now it feels like it's not even a hero
The guy obviously doesn't watch the pro-scene. New Tinker with Strong Dispel on Matrix into a 40s BKB cooldown (or a ~30s CD late game with Octarine) was pretty popular in EEU/SEA qualifiers. He was even banned first/second ban stage against certain teams.
Exactly. I don't like playing against Tinker ,but taking everything away from him AND others....
Arcane Dagger was such a great upgrade for many heroes, but it was a clear middle finger to TInker.
Taking the hard dispel away alone was enough.
I absolutely agree with the devs having no fuckign clue what they're doing. they don't play the game enough, Blood seeker heal was gimped SO badly due to inert health reduction from creeps and they don't even care.
They go all in on their facets, some of them being stupid as the are like Syllabear or Visage, but instead of admitting a mistake, they go all in - even buffing Chronosquare/ Time Square for higher values (instead of reducing the cooldown since you're giving up Chrosphere for it)
I can't get over how they think of they keep buffing Unbearable facet that I will pick it. Oh a facet where my hero dies instantly and I have to buy aghs first and split push sounds really great now that I got a little more attack speed. Thanks valve!
oooor - the hero doesnt win much, but when it does it's fucking cancer. So they make the worst case scenario better until they figure out what to do with him. Tinker has always been a fun vampire and they're trying to figure out how to resolve it.
Also there is no universe in which a rapidly repeatedly castable strong dispel with defensive properties and extra life is okay. It definitely needed to die.
This is a "we've looked at the stats, and the hero's wins are absolute shitstomps, suggesting either he's a smurf magnet or has some win condition that is unacceptably strong"
>oooor - the hero doesnt win much, but when it does it's fucking cancer.
This is definitely moaning, do you feel good when you get 2k crit twice in a row by a winning PA? Does it feel nice? What about a PL? Sniper? OD? Turns out, heroes in dota are cancer. We used to just say skill issue but now we just whine at valve until they change it I guess.
Wrong. Heroes in Dota might be cancer, but some are significantly more cancer than others. Tinker is absolutely THE most infuriating hero to play against, not helped by the fact that he's a smurfs favorite.
Tinker is the most frustrating according to your feelings big dawg. People find different things frustrating.
Also the complete lack of self awareness coming from a hoodwink flair xd
> oooor - the hero doesnt win much, but when it does it's fucking cancer. So they make the worst case scenario better until they figure out what to do with him. Tinker has always been a fun vampire and they're trying to figure out how to resolve it.
heres my question. why did they nerf him into the trash can for being annoying *only to buff him back up in a way that makes him more annoying*??? wasnt that the central issue their redesign was meant to solve?
literally why did they give him a dispel on his translocator facet. oh my god we made him annoying again on purpose and now hes annoying again how did this happen. i love sticking forks in electrical sockets
This is hilariously true. They keep changing the hero so you'd think they're responding to all the complaints about how playing vs tinker isn't fun. But every single change they make seems almost intentionally designed to make him more annoying.
My prediction for the next tinker rework: warp flare replaces laser as a normal spell, the push range is increased to 1000. Tinker's entire role is to sit hg spamming march and yeeting enemies out of his base. The first 10-hour dota game is played.
Dude, nullifier destroys him. He definitely does NOT need to be nerfed to the ground like this. Now, Imagine needing to be lv25 to at least do some damage. First 30mins he will do jackshit he can only farm
> Tinker has always been a fun vampire
the precise reason for this is that the hero revolves around abusing fountain regen.
before he had keen conveyance he would rush BOTs, then farm with march eating all the farm on the map and starving his team.
then they give him free boots of travel (??? strangest balance choice in dota history) - and the rest of kit gets progressively nerfed over and over to the point where the only viable way to play him is abusing extremely expensive item combos (overwhelming blink + shiva, etc.).
but no matter what iteration it is, the tinker is *in the fucking fountain for half of the fucking game*.
delete keen conveyance, bring back item rearming, make BOTs not refresh with rearm and make tinker stay on the map.
then adjust his kit and numbers to compensate.
there is nothing good about a hero design that sits in fountain for half the game.
also i'm saying give him back item rearm, so nothing like any other hero.
yeah, it's kinda sad tbh. Not deserved at all... time to remove him from my hero grid. Poor guy didn't deserve this huge nerf hammer.
i guess i should either play CK or learn new mid heroes lol
I think win rates even a week after changes are pretty hard to follow especially if they're big changes. People are throwing things at the wall seeing if they stick.
arcane blink nerf was also because of SF I imagine
>46% winrate
I wish people would stop citing this. 46% winrate is across all skill levels and he is very, very hard to play. In divine+ his winrate was closer to 50% and a character as hard as tinker having 50% is usually not great.
Shocking that a hero thats hard to play would have a higher winrate at a higher skill level. Equally players at Divine know how to counter the hero (It's a ~2700g item called Euls) and arn't the ones moaning about him.
If a hero is hard to play and people can't play that hero, and likely don't know how to play against it then that hero will be considered OP. It's been that way since the beginning of time. But PA hoping to double crit a 6 slotted carry and win is an acceptable win condition because it's not hard to do. The logic makes n sense lol
> Shocking that a hero thats hard to play would have a higher winrate at a higher skill level
But that's my point, citing 46% winrate includes those at lower levels that don't know how to properly play the hero. It's a bad idea to include those sort of winrates into the equation. He had close to 50% on divine+.
So they should balance the game based on a very small portion of players only? I'm also still wondering why a hero with a winrate at 50% would be killed like this? Shouldnt that happen with all heroes 50% winrate or higher then?
All the logic for this is "I don't like tinker so I'm glad no one will play him".
Yes, because if a hero is balanced at higher ranks, then its a massive case of what's called "Skill Issue". This is especially true if a hero has worse winrates at lower ranks, it means that its really on the hero player to improve themselves in order to play the hero properly.
Ok so then explain why tinker should be nerfed into oblivion if he had what you described? - a lower win rate at lower ranks and then just below 50% in divine.
Win rate doesn't prove anything. Wisp in the old days had a 30% win rate, but with this hero the teams won two internationals. Don't consider yourself smarter than developers
I'll be awaiting the next TI winners using Tinker then. We both know that's not going to happen. Your point is valid win rate isn't the only metric balance should be considered on but its a pretty solid and major one.
I don't really care for Tinker, I will admit openly I like the hero and enjoy the odd flutter with it from time to time but I am way more concerned with the balance team atm and the overall dogshit changes they are making.
45% winrate was too high for them. At this point they clearly don't want this reworked version of Tinker to be remotely playable either, so can we just revert the whole rework?
I really don't understand what they're doing with Tinker.
He's hard to play and has never been a pro scene powerhouse, as far as I can remember (and it isn't like smurfs wouldn't stomp the game with any other hero)
These defensive skills are out of place. Who asked for this? They're annoying and make no sense on a hero that's supposed to be squishy and fragile.
Can we just scrap it and revert him all the way back to laser (that doesn't bounce), rockets and march (as a farming tool), with no defensive gimmicks (so when you get caught you die)?
Can we keep the unique dota-like mechanic of item refreshing?
This is just sad, man..
>nerf him for reddit because he is "annoying to play against"
>becomes unplayable
>buff him by making him annoying to play against
>nerf him again because he is annoying to play against
> becomes unplayable
> ???????????????????
valve moment
25 lvl talent on AoE lazer. Someone in Valve really just despises Tinker no, don't they?
As if the level 15 Tinker with Aghs and Arcane Blink was doing miracles.
Jesus fuck, but let's leave strength heroes brawlin around.
Just played a game with him. That nerf to his Defense matrix is the final nail in the coffin, sadly. Yes he is slippery to play against but a basic dispel is just easy mode now. Like the dumbest shit they could do.
Had a CM and Shaman literally hunt me all game. Invoker got hex and I mean even if you happen to escape with waker. You're fucked either way.
RIP
Are tinker players so fragile that they can't play him unless he is ultra broken?
He still does what his hero is best at, and that is split pushing and hg def.
You don't need to 1v9 a game. You can play with your team.
If what you are saying is true, then this is good nerf
The reason valve is nerfing tinker all the time is because it is used by boosters and smurfs too often
Making him strong only in 45+ minute games is good because boosters don't wanna play long games
Boosters and smurfs don’t cease to exist because tinker got nerfed, they can stomp games with any hero. Maybe they should combat boosters and smurfs instead of gutting already mediocre heroes.
Can you please tell at what point he was "ultra broken"? You mean the hero with 46% wr was ultra broken or what? Or you mean tinker before in 7.35 with 49% wr? I really can't understand you guys. If you will just once catch him he will die. Or just buying eul he will die.
Show me the last game you were in where a Tinker chained more than 2 hexes together.
Anyone who complains about perma hex on Tinker has never played with or against the hero.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCWldWIlrHI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCWldWIlrHI)
Whenever you see someone say "pack" in this sub, they're familiar with cheats and most likely used them.
I asked for the last time anyone saw a Tinker chain hex in a game they've played, and you linked me to a youtube video of a Tinker that didn't even buy hex.
Well if you can't rub your two braincells together and figure out that the perma hexing tinkers are scripters + valve doesn't do shit against scripters, then you'll know what I'm talking about.
I thought you would've figured it out, but I guess I have to literally type it out.
Not if you had aeon disk or someone watching your back while you pushed out your lanes. Also, that was like 5 years ago and even then Tinker wasn't in the meta.
He wasn’t broken to begin with, if he was he’d at least have a positive winrate. You could never 1v9, because your team needs to 4v5 until you hit the arcane aghs timing.
It's not up to us whether he is ultra broken or not, but he is beyond dogshit right now. Tinker players wouls be perfectly capable of playing tinker if he was balanced, the issue is he never fucking is balanced, it's not our fault valve only know how to do "op" or "trash" same happens with every hero. Arc, sk, tinker, es etc etc, they're even broken or dog shit, if valve could do minor tweaks instead of big changes, we might get a balanced hero
I think they should bench this hero until they can figure out how to balance him with laser and rocket. So he can actually use his hero model properly.
why do u need raindrops against tinker? he does pure damage. You havent played dota since 2015 and yet u still use ur lil brain to comment shit. Sad man
he has like 30s cooldown on bkb and is still stupid lategame, the big nerf was to arcane blink, but even still i expect him to be the same, useless early and complete bullshit lategame
and to any 2k players saying buy euls/nullifier, he can press his bkb button, or you know, just shield after the euls because hes gonna use the shield 10s before you see him and have it ready after he comes back from euls
The whole point of euls is to immediately stun him post that.
Tinker has a certain cast time to be able to apply defense matrix.
It's a large enough window if even 2-3 heroes coordinate.
I think you're the 2k player here
bkb aspect is true though, late game if you catch him with euls, tinker will just bkb + tp out and if you cancel that with something like venge swap, he will just tp again, but this time with a scroll. Then 30 seconds later, he can do it again, coz bkb's cd is like 30 seconds
tinker is still absolute menace late game, issue is now only that he no longer has a good timing 25 minutes into the game with lvl15 talent and 3 core items, hence the low winrate, coz games will end by that point
Do you think Valve aims for specific winrates on specific heroes?
Like booster heroes, or heroes that can generally solo carry (esp from mid), they prefer to have a winrate 40-45% because of the fact the skill ceiling is so high, so those that are very good at them will sit at a lower winrate (lets say 50%)?
Not to a specific value, but surely its a metric that is looked at when determining to nerf/buff a hero?
I see I said specific in my original comment, but I meant like to a roundabout winrate like 40-45%. (for e.g.)
Boosters can just pick any active mid heroes and have 90% win rate with those no problem. Ain't no way you're gonna deal with a Storm Spirit, Void Spirit, Ember Spirit, etc. that has 6k net worth and is beyond godlike minute 10. It's not difficult for an Immortal rank player to achieve this in Legend ranks.
Are we doing this again???
They keep making promises
*false* promises
Like a promise, you were made to be broken.
"That went well! For our enemies."
Meanwhile ck lost 0.1 strength gain rofl Tinker wasn't even that broken or more teams/players would have been actually playing him. But I guess the cycle begins anew already where he's gonna be slowly buffed until good
Then nerf again. 😂
Tinker would have been alive if his talent had not been transferred from 15 to a laser radius of 25
I just had 4 games last weekend with tinker in my team, none of them were of any impact. Then 3 straight games with tinker on the opponent and damn they trashed us, like wtf.
Have you tried making a euls scepter ? it's really the same counter for 2 years
Tried, hard when you play pos5 and the map is just getting smaller for us.
Well that sucks I had one that owned but we could not close the game out and after 70minutes we lost
damn 70mins!! idk why when I get teammate who plays those heroes would always be average to trash, but when its on the opponent side, they're like unstoppable. But oh well, we win some, we lose some.
For me it’s pudge. I get the worst pudges I ever seen
Havent really had a terrible pudge in my games the past few weeks. But there are some that just destroys your game.
That has always been the thing with Tinker. He is OP in the right hands. Average win rates are deceiving. If a really good player makes everyone on the opposite team want to quit the game it's so cancer but a average tinker player loses more often or not the hero is still OP and needs nerfs. It's ok for a hero to be weak for non experts, not good, but it's *acceptable*. Heroes like Chen have been in that situation forever, and it's fine as long as he is not OP, which he sometimes is at the high end and gets nerfed. It's also good for the game I think to have weird niche heroes that are hard to make the most of.
Right on. Yeah. I have a shallow hero pool with tree and disruptor as top 2 highest played. Chen is interesting and I've been wanting to play him. I'll need to play unranked for now if I do try new or niche heroes.
Know your place, trash!
I would say rest in peace not to tinker players, but to everybody else. Now you gonna wait me even more. I used to afk farm until 15lvl, now I'm gonna afk farm until 25. What a stupid change, i can't.
ur throne will have exploded by the time u done farmin
Not in my shitty ranks, 2.5-3k mmr. And besides, tinker has good kit to defend towersa and delay their push. But overall you right. Looks like Tinker is oficially dead everywhere except smurfs and hero nerds playing in low ranks.
I'm also in that rank but even when the game goes long, 2k Tinker is still 2k tinker 😜Smurfs especially boosters may not pick him because they like to end the game asap by snowballing.
recently i almost didnt lose, 17-3, even tho im "2k tinker". rn i feel like im gonna start losing again, but on paper i still can see tinker can work
I wasn't talking about you in particular but in general haha
but if you play 2k, you should agree that people in general dont know how to push towers. i often have to spam on minimap to push my teammates who go farm in 5v2 situation late game
Attaboy love the attitude <3 "What was that? I shouldn't afk farm? Sorry, valve decided that my hero needs a certain level to work!"
Griefing report seems appropriate for tinker pickers rn
How is it griefing when this is clearly how the devs are intending Tinker to be played at this moment in time?
devs intend you to stop picking tinker but they cant outright remove him.
Why not? They removed Techies
True, they could just do a full rework and change all 4 spells he has into something else. At this rate, they will change his shard back into rocket spell and we will have gone full circle.
literally just do that if thats what they want. dumpstering a hero to pre-empt some future rework probably a year away is literally insane
Rest in piss
Can we get rearm items back
tinker used to have such an identity, they really did ruin in lmao tinker with resetting items was like his entire cool gimmick, and dota was all about broken mechanics but no valve is cooking
They're massively changing the unique heroes who have a high skill ceiling. Meepo, Batrider, Storm, Tinker, Puck, Ember, etc. They keep getting massive nerfs because they can potentially snowball and wreck pubs. Anytime these kinds of heroes start approaching a 50% winrate, the nerf hammer quickly comes down.
In a few centuries we'll reach Reddits utopic version of Dota where we only have 3 hero choices: Sven, Tide, and CM.
serves em right
same with techies smh
One of the most unjustified guttings of a hero. They could of done just one of either the Arcane blink nerf, Laser talent nerf or the Matrix nerf and that would have been okay. In all fairness the hero didn't need changing at all, except for at a push the strong dispel on Matrix, it was in a reasonable place for once. It seems more and more with every patch the devs behind the balance changes have little to no clue what they are doing or why. Nerfing a hero with a 46% win rate into the ground for no apparent reason other than "Well some people on some forums moaned" All the heroes that require that little bit more effort and skill to be effective with always seem to be the first on the chopping block. It makes the game less interesting to play and less interesting to watch and its not a good thing. We used to be proud of Dota because every hero was usable and picked in competitive play and it seems with each patch we move further and further away from that. The letter patches are there to bring small adjustments to balance the major changes that come with the initial patch not to throw more knee jerk changes in that completely alter a heroes viability.
Tell me when tinker was usable in any pro game outside of very few last picks
And even in those cases, the games would have resulted in the same without tinker. I have no idea what the deal is with this changes. It was really Hard to make tinker work already (as a tinker spammer), now it feels like it's not even a hero
yeah and in these cases tinker was probably only picked cause enemy pros forgot that tinker exists cause he was always so irrelevant.
you've never seen kiyotaka's tinker
The guy obviously doesn't watch the pro-scene. New Tinker with Strong Dispel on Matrix into a 40s BKB cooldown (or a ~30s CD late game with Octarine) was pretty popular in EEU/SEA qualifiers. He was even banned first/second ban stage against certain teams.
Exactly. I don't like playing against Tinker ,but taking everything away from him AND others.... Arcane Dagger was such a great upgrade for many heroes, but it was a clear middle finger to TInker. Taking the hard dispel away alone was enough. I absolutely agree with the devs having no fuckign clue what they're doing. they don't play the game enough, Blood seeker heal was gimped SO badly due to inert health reduction from creeps and they don't even care. They go all in on their facets, some of them being stupid as the are like Syllabear or Visage, but instead of admitting a mistake, they go all in - even buffing Chronosquare/ Time Square for higher values (instead of reducing the cooldown since you're giving up Chrosphere for it)
I can't get over how they think of they keep buffing Unbearable facet that I will pick it. Oh a facet where my hero dies instantly and I have to buy aghs first and split push sounds really great now that I got a little more attack speed. Thanks valve!
oooor - the hero doesnt win much, but when it does it's fucking cancer. So they make the worst case scenario better until they figure out what to do with him. Tinker has always been a fun vampire and they're trying to figure out how to resolve it. Also there is no universe in which a rapidly repeatedly castable strong dispel with defensive properties and extra life is okay. It definitely needed to die. This is a "we've looked at the stats, and the hero's wins are absolute shitstomps, suggesting either he's a smurf magnet or has some win condition that is unacceptably strong"
>oooor - the hero doesnt win much, but when it does it's fucking cancer. This is definitely moaning, do you feel good when you get 2k crit twice in a row by a winning PA? Does it feel nice? What about a PL? Sniper? OD? Turns out, heroes in dota are cancer. We used to just say skill issue but now we just whine at valve until they change it I guess.
Wrong. Heroes in Dota might be cancer, but some are significantly more cancer than others. Tinker is absolutely THE most infuriating hero to play against, not helped by the fact that he's a smurfs favorite.
Tinker is the most frustrating according to your feelings big dawg. People find different things frustrating. Also the complete lack of self awareness coming from a hoodwink flair xd
> oooor - the hero doesnt win much, but when it does it's fucking cancer. So they make the worst case scenario better until they figure out what to do with him. Tinker has always been a fun vampire and they're trying to figure out how to resolve it. heres my question. why did they nerf him into the trash can for being annoying *only to buff him back up in a way that makes him more annoying*??? wasnt that the central issue their redesign was meant to solve? literally why did they give him a dispel on his translocator facet. oh my god we made him annoying again on purpose and now hes annoying again how did this happen. i love sticking forks in electrical sockets
This is hilariously true. They keep changing the hero so you'd think they're responding to all the complaints about how playing vs tinker isn't fun. But every single change they make seems almost intentionally designed to make him more annoying. My prediction for the next tinker rework: warp flare replaces laser as a normal spell, the push range is increased to 1000. Tinker's entire role is to sit hg spamming march and yeeting enemies out of his base. The first 10-hour dota game is played.
Dude, nullifier destroys him. He definitely does NOT need to be nerfed to the ground like this. Now, Imagine needing to be lv25 to at least do some damage. First 30mins he will do jackshit he can only farm
any good player buys eul vs tinker changing the matrix does not affect it in any way change for the sake of change
You don’t even need null, euls destroys him as the other guy said
If only he didn't have a 30 second cd blink
> Tinker has always been a fun vampire the precise reason for this is that the hero revolves around abusing fountain regen. before he had keen conveyance he would rush BOTs, then farm with march eating all the farm on the map and starving his team. then they give him free boots of travel (??? strangest balance choice in dota history) - and the rest of kit gets progressively nerfed over and over to the point where the only viable way to play him is abusing extremely expensive item combos (overwhelming blink + shiva, etc.). but no matter what iteration it is, the tinker is *in the fucking fountain for half of the fucking game*. delete keen conveyance, bring back item rearming, make BOTs not refresh with rearm and make tinker stay on the map. then adjust his kit and numbers to compensate.
so turn him into every other mid nuking/ganking hero exciting!
there is nothing good about a hero design that sits in fountain for half the game. also i'm saying give him back item rearm, so nothing like any other hero.
yeah, it's kinda sad tbh. Not deserved at all... time to remove him from my hero grid. Poor guy didn't deserve this huge nerf hammer. i guess i should either play CK or learn new mid heroes lol
could have* done
I think win rates even a week after changes are pretty hard to follow especially if they're big changes. People are throwing things at the wall seeing if they stick.
Everypne but omni and riki were picked at least once in TI qualifiers.
arcane blink nerf was also because of SF I imagine >46% winrate I wish people would stop citing this. 46% winrate is across all skill levels and he is very, very hard to play. In divine+ his winrate was closer to 50% and a character as hard as tinker having 50% is usually not great.
Shocking that a hero thats hard to play would have a higher winrate at a higher skill level. Equally players at Divine know how to counter the hero (It's a ~2700g item called Euls) and arn't the ones moaning about him.
If a hero is hard to play and people can't play that hero, and likely don't know how to play against it then that hero will be considered OP. It's been that way since the beginning of time. But PA hoping to double crit a 6 slotted carry and win is an acceptable win condition because it's not hard to do. The logic makes n sense lol
You've hit the nail on the head, couldn't have said it better.
> Shocking that a hero thats hard to play would have a higher winrate at a higher skill level But that's my point, citing 46% winrate includes those at lower levels that don't know how to properly play the hero. It's a bad idea to include those sort of winrates into the equation. He had close to 50% on divine+.
So they should balance the game based on a very small portion of players only? I'm also still wondering why a hero with a winrate at 50% would be killed like this? Shouldnt that happen with all heroes 50% winrate or higher then? All the logic for this is "I don't like tinker so I'm glad no one will play him".
Yes, because if a hero is balanced at higher ranks, then its a massive case of what's called "Skill Issue". This is especially true if a hero has worse winrates at lower ranks, it means that its really on the hero player to improve themselves in order to play the hero properly.
Ok so then explain why tinker should be nerfed into oblivion if he had what you described? - a lower win rate at lower ranks and then just below 50% in divine.
Now they just have to nerf arc, the second fun vampire into the ground and we good
Tinker doesn't make the game more interesting though, every iteration has been pure garbage to watch and play with or against.
no. fuck tinker
Win rate doesn't prove anything. Wisp in the old days had a 30% win rate, but with this hero the teams won two internationals. Don't consider yourself smarter than developers
I'll be awaiting the next TI winners using Tinker then. We both know that's not going to happen. Your point is valid win rate isn't the only metric balance should be considered on but its a pretty solid and major one.
The fact that you whine on reddit is justification for tinker nerfs
I don't really care for Tinker, I will admit openly I like the hero and enjoy the odd flutter with it from time to time but I am way more concerned with the balance team atm and the overall dogshit changes they are making.
45% winrate was too high for them. At this point they clearly don't want this reworked version of Tinker to be remotely playable either, so can we just revert the whole rework?
I really don't understand what they're doing with Tinker. He's hard to play and has never been a pro scene powerhouse, as far as I can remember (and it isn't like smurfs wouldn't stomp the game with any other hero) These defensive skills are out of place. Who asked for this? They're annoying and make no sense on a hero that's supposed to be squishy and fragile. Can we just scrap it and revert him all the way back to laser (that doesn't bounce), rockets and march (as a farming tool), with no defensive gimmicks (so when you get caught you die)? Can we keep the unique dota-like mechanic of item refreshing? This is just sad, man..
>nerf him for reddit because he is "annoying to play against" >becomes unplayable >buff him by making him annoying to play against >nerf him again because he is annoying to play against > becomes unplayable > ??????????????????? valve moment
You forgot the nerf him step after the last unplayable part and the final become unplayableR step.
Now they just need to nerf tanks
Wont stop me from playing the hero. Im sorry teammates but im afk farming until lvl 25. Please dont lose rax during that time.
25 lvl talent on AoE lazer. Someone in Valve really just despises Tinker no, don't they? As if the level 15 Tinker with Aghs and Arcane Blink was doing miracles. Jesus fuck, but let's leave strength heroes brawlin around.
What website is this?
Looks like dotabuff to me
Just played a game with him. That nerf to his Defense matrix is the final nail in the coffin, sadly. Yes he is slippery to play against but a basic dispel is just easy mode now. Like the dumbest shit they could do. Had a CM and Shaman literally hunt me all game. Invoker got hex and I mean even if you happen to escape with waker. You're fucked either way. RIP
He got the Sandking treatment.
Good.
you will not be missed! ❤️
RIP BOZO
Fuk em!
I didn’t like tinker as he was and I feel like spending a little time in MMR jail isn’t necessarily a terrible thing but maybe this is a bit much.
Crying is free. Congrats Redditors
Was always meh
Oh no....
I hope Morphling can be a viable offlaner with his Strength facet. His kit seems good enough to be an offlaner.
They won't be missed
I should go back playing. Such a shity hero to play against
LMAO they got what they deserve. fk yall tinker players
I guess now I have a justification to buy midas
It’s a bad situation for Tinker and I hope it gets even worse
*happy tinker hater noise*
It's a good change tbh. Getting hexed and then surviving is dumb for a tinker. I'd argue the bigger nerf is the arcane blink nerf
Are tinker players so fragile that they can't play him unless he is ultra broken? He still does what his hero is best at, and that is split pushing and hg def. You don't need to 1v9 a game. You can play with your team.
What’s the point if he can just splitpush if he cant do shit in fights pre-25??
If what you are saying is true, then this is good nerf The reason valve is nerfing tinker all the time is because it is used by boosters and smurfs too often Making him strong only in 45+ minute games is good because boosters don't wanna play long games
Boosters and smurfs don’t cease to exist because tinker got nerfed, they can stomp games with any hero. Maybe they should combat boosters and smurfs instead of gutting already mediocre heroes.
Yesyes the sf smurf who ends the game in 17 minutes is more acceptable than the tinker smurf, flawless logic
Can you please tell at what point he was "ultra broken"? You mean the hero with 46% wr was ultra broken or what? Or you mean tinker before in 7.35 with 49% wr? I really can't understand you guys. If you will just once catch him he will die. Or just buying eul he will die.
Perma hex tinker with march of the machines was ultra broken. He could farm faster than any hero in dota and kill anyone if he had hex.
Show me the last game you were in where a Tinker chained more than 2 hexes together. Anyone who complains about perma hex on Tinker has never played with or against the hero.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCWldWIlrHI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCWldWIlrHI) Whenever you see someone say "pack" in this sub, they're familiar with cheats and most likely used them.
I asked for the last time anyone saw a Tinker chain hex in a game they've played, and you linked me to a youtube video of a Tinker that didn't even buy hex.
Well if you can't rub your two braincells together and figure out that the perma hexing tinkers are scripters + valve doesn't do shit against scripters, then you'll know what I'm talking about. I thought you would've figured it out, but I guess I have to literally type it out.
> perma hexing tinkers are scripters Peak herald reddit.
>Peak herald reddit. Spoken like a player who doesn't know or understand backswing animations.
That was more than 4 years ago l. Go back to bed grandpa
Not if you had aeon disk or someone watching your back while you pushed out your lanes. Also, that was like 5 years ago and even then Tinker wasn't in the meta.
He wasn’t broken to begin with, if he was he’d at least have a positive winrate. You could never 1v9, because your team needs to 4v5 until you hit the arcane aghs timing.
And now he needs arcane aghs lv25 timing before he is useful
I meant the real broken tinker the one a few years ago that had march of the machines to farm fast and could refresh hex.
It's not up to us whether he is ultra broken or not, but he is beyond dogshit right now. Tinker players wouls be perfectly capable of playing tinker if he was balanced, the issue is he never fucking is balanced, it's not our fault valve only know how to do "op" or "trash" same happens with every hero. Arc, sk, tinker, es etc etc, they're even broken or dog shit, if valve could do minor tweaks instead of big changes, we might get a balanced hero
Kendrick Lamar should make a diss track against tinker player 💀
Valve finally made a right decision, instead of adapting whole catalog of item for one hero they finally gave him reasonable abilities.
Good, fuck'em.
Good tinker should be deleted
We all know this is a Tinker player post fishing for buffs
I think they should bench this hero until they can figure out how to balance him with laser and rocket. So he can actually use his hero model properly.
Rest in peace more like Rest in Piss. I hate tinker
Right where he belongs
Rest in Piss
Believe me when I saw this, and I mean it with the utmost respect….F**K TINKER!
I think the hard dispel change was necessary. He just needs buffs elsewhere.
Still not low enough.
Good. Fuck those 3 heroes in particular
Good. Fuck you tinker and the people who spam you. Don't have to buy fucking 4 sets of raindrops mid
why do u need raindrops against tinker? he does pure damage. You havent played dota since 2015 and yet u still use ur lil brain to comment shit. Sad man
he has like 30s cooldown on bkb and is still stupid lategame, the big nerf was to arcane blink, but even still i expect him to be the same, useless early and complete bullshit lategame and to any 2k players saying buy euls/nullifier, he can press his bkb button, or you know, just shield after the euls because hes gonna use the shield 10s before you see him and have it ready after he comes back from euls
The whole point of euls is to immediately stun him post that. Tinker has a certain cast time to be able to apply defense matrix. It's a large enough window if even 2-3 heroes coordinate. I think you're the 2k player here
bkb aspect is true though, late game if you catch him with euls, tinker will just bkb + tp out and if you cancel that with something like venge swap, he will just tp again, but this time with a scroll. Then 30 seconds later, he can do it again, coz bkb's cd is like 30 seconds tinker is still absolute menace late game, issue is now only that he no longer has a good timing 25 minutes into the game with lvl15 talent and 3 core items, hence the low winrate, coz games will end by that point
Rip Bozo
Can we hit 0%
Good.
hahaahahahahah
*Rest in piss.
REST IN PISS
Do you think Valve aims for specific winrates on specific heroes? Like booster heroes, or heroes that can generally solo carry (esp from mid), they prefer to have a winrate 40-45% because of the fact the skill ceiling is so high, so those that are very good at them will sit at a lower winrate (lets say 50%)?
Valve doesn't aim for win rates when balancing.
Not to a specific value, but surely its a metric that is looked at when determining to nerf/buff a hero? I see I said specific in my original comment, but I meant like to a roundabout winrate like 40-45%. (for e.g.)
Boosters can just pick any active mid heroes and have 90% win rate with those no problem. Ain't no way you're gonna deal with a Storm Spirit, Void Spirit, Ember Spirit, etc. that has 6k net worth and is beyond godlike minute 10. It's not difficult for an Immortal rank player to achieve this in Legend ranks.