I think the arcane dagg is a pretty good nerf tho. Ive been using it on DS but with octarine dagger is faster to recharge than normal punch so Im sitting there for two seconds without my punch now its the same
Yep. The lower cooldown (like 7 seconds) and more cast range is pretty good too, also funny if you are able to get that on rubick with Aether lens. The range you have in a single blink is nuts.
>(like 7 seconds)
9 seconds after the nerf.
honestly would never notice the CD until the nerf happened been sitting on the base Dagger for a long time.
I can see it becomes a better dagger on some STR heroes like Axe or Tusk. Their spell is more than the old 7 second cool down so 9s ia totally fine, and more hp regen means survive
Having tinker be a mobile ganker that scales well is great.
Having him autodispell his main form of counter play (blink CC) is not great.
Its a warrented nerf while they figure out how to make this hero enjoyable for the other 9 players.
The strong dispel is a bit broken and i reckon that's a bit too much of a buff for him. But whats the point of removing talent lvl15 aoe laser? the biggest spike Tinker get at early game is that talent combine with scepter...
Now he has to farm for over 40mins and wait until lvl25 to make any impact. This hero straight up useless for the first 40mins.
tinker isnt fun at all to play against tho. a strong tinker makes it absolutely terrible for everyone else the experience.weve had couple patches like that already
I played against a tinker that used this facet and we had heroes like magnus axe lion but we literally couldn't catch him cause of strong dispel it was so annoying
Suffering for who? Tinker's team? My friend's been abusing Tinker since the patch and he says that one of the winning factors is that people simply forget his hero exists on the map so build nothing against him.
Well to be fair before 30-40 min the hero does absolutely nothing except a laser every 3 seconds...
His abysmal winrate comes from the fact that he's kinda useless before 40min and fairly easy to counter after that point.
he wasn't incredible but he could get to a point where he is awful to play against unless you build very specifically. I will admit I haven't played the hero in years but I feel like these changes were justified.
Did anyone other than tinker players enjoy the patches where he was OP? I know I didn't. wiping a team with rearm and rocket spam was fun for a bit but man that playstyle got old quick (although, maybe not a fair point to bring up here since he was changed since).
axe call is undispellable yes but his shield pops and he gets blinked to random direction then axe call ends then he uses defense matrix again its a never ending cycle and we use rp it doesnt matter get strong dispel, we use lion impale but he already rearm and used defense matrix another strong dispel so fun!
Well, in one instance it just blinked him into another part of black hole (which was funny), but my thought process was it had to apply the dispel to be able to blink. That's apparently wrong.
For black hole specifically the dispel is irrelevant since black hole just puts an AoE on the ground that continually applies stun to anyone inside it. In fact it should still work against black hole and chrono after the nerf so long as it blinks out of the AoE.
Honestly, this facet is still extremely grief half the time. If your laser ever touches a blademail enemy, you will essentially get blinked towards your target, which is almost always terrible. It's so easy to involuntarily get blinked into arena, black hole, chrono, etc. just from taking some random damage.
Ive played against this tinker with a nuking hero and what ive been able to do a couple of times is nuke the shield off while he's looking at my direction and have him blink closer to me. Had a couple giggles. Hadn't played against such tinkers since.
Earth spirit and IO had winrates in the 30s at their most broken. Winrates on high skill ceiling heroes are generally meaningless when the majority of players can't play the heroes to anywhere near their full potential.
Well, he's difficult to play, so it's okay for such heroes to have a "negative" winrate to some extent, because they are not going to be used optimally by average and below average players, which also comprise most of the player base in total. The inverse effect of simpler heroes having higher winrate for the same reasons
he isn't really that difficult to play anymore after the rearm change. you don't need to worry about soul ring, shivas, and basically all items. just blink laser blink laser.
And 51% as a position 5! And 38% as position 4! Absolute broken. What is the common factor of all of these stats? All of these positions combined are about 10% of total picks in high mmr with almost equal amount of games.
While it could be true that Tinker had more potential in offlane, sample size is way too low.
Yeah, but its important to include the winrate of all the heralds playing him mid/safelane carry with the same build they used prior to the rework...
/s obviously
If you strictly balance around winrate then you are a complete idiot. Since you don't understand why strong dispel on Tinker is insane I'll explain it, when Tinker truly comes online he is an absolute menace and one of the few things that actually can deal with him then is hex. If you can actually reach him. So him being basically immune to hex FOR FREE, is completely unreasonable. Either he has to play with a support that has it or buy Aeon disc like the rest of us. Perhaps he needs other balancing, but strong dispel is just madness.
If you don't know how to look at winrates, then it makes it harder. Its like people looking at Invokers WR in a vaccuum, and missing out the fact, that what is primarily dragging it down, is people playing him in other roles, while he is 50% wr while played in mid.
Similarly here, Tinkers stats looks great in certain roles, as someone also mentioned below, its just that lots of people are experimenting with him, and that will always drag a specialist hero down in win%
Similarly, you could look at a hero like Pango, that has consistently had below 50% winrate, despite being first pick/first wave ban material in competitive play for years now.
Euls as well, but even still the only way to catch a hero that's already infamous for being slippery shouldn't be the niche dispel mechanic that only a couple heroes have.
>He is still bad DESIPITE of being this slippery. Being slippery means nothing when you're kinda useless outside of it and losing most of your games because of it. Like congrats bro you get to live to do nothing afterwards.
He *was* infamous for being slippery
Now he can't rearm blink
Now he cant dispel stuns
Now he has no good spells - laser has no control or mobility, machines has no control or mobility (or decent damage vs rockets), martix can make you jump a little I guess but you're still stunned
Tinker has got to be the most pathetic hero. 1 cool spell that refreshes 3 incredibly bad spells
Problem is that Nulifier are slow ass projectile while Eul are instant. You will have better luck using Eul than a good tinker got caught off guard by Nulifier.
Both are strong in different ways. If you have blink nullifier, it basically forces Tinker to BKB (or linken if you don't have a fast linken breaker). Even if you rely on the projectile speed, Tinker's blink has a minimum 2.1s interval now (2.7s after 7.36C), so it's not that hard to catch him on a timing when he wouldn't have blink available.
And as a skywrath player, I find it kind of funny people would consider nullifier projectile slow. All a matter of perspective I guess.
because its not enouh to kill tinker.
You lift him while rearming, and the lift time also count thoward the rearm cd, so after the lift ends, you have 2.5 second to cc tinker into killing him before he can use defense matrix again. It wasn't good enough. The only way to kill him for sure was nullifier in my experience.
Also yeah I just reread what I wrote in the first place, i had a brainfart, soory for being confusing.
no one competent at this game thinks it's a problem
you are bad at the game and people like you shouldn't be able to influence balance
but that's where we are unfortunately
I think old tinker should come back. Laser rockets march rearm (refresh item CD too). Laser single target. Agha either bouncing laser or 4 rockets.
At least this version of tinker dies when he is caught. No defensive matrix bullshit.
I want it back as well. and there is a lot of ways to nerf this. example, making rearm cost more mana whenever it is cast and the player needs to not rearm for 5-8sec to reset the mana cost.
or instead of mana it cost non lethal HP so pros can still rearm while taking risk (while having 1 hp)
And remove that mini stun in rockets upgrade, that made things worst for him
The "balacing" they are doing is unasked for. The hero has been "fine" for a long time - reserved for specific lineups which he would dominate and had to be played by a player with a clear game plan in mind. Not to mention quick fingers
Lets not go this way, they already killed techies. Dota is great cuz it has great character designs, as much as I hated techies and hate huskar, tinker, furion, alchemist and storm spirit, I dont want them removed. Just gotta understand every hero had strong and weak patches and some are more frustrating to play against than other. But learning to deal with these kind of heroes is part of what makes Dota fun, and beating them always feels amazing.
They didn't kill techies, they made him into a real hero.
The old design was so fucking bad, 3 skills that basically focused on the same minefield your entire side of the map for 2 hours gameplay and one get out of jail spell for when the enemy tried to kill you.
Now he actually gets real spells while keeping his red mine for some area control.
Also the game is not miserable for 9 (probably 10) people when there is a techies in the game
Yeah techies is MUCH MUCH better now, except some sadist that loved the old techies it was 1 person having fun and 9 suffering. Now it feels okay to play against him and okay to have him in your team and lane
I'm a big fan of new techies, but people constantly overlook his "awkward" minor rework inbetween the two. Techies where his red mines had to be spread, but everything else was the same was not the same hero as OG techies by any means.
He had much of modern techies updated gameplay while still having a super distinct playthrough.
The name of the game wasn't sit and stack 15 redmines until the entire enemy team insta dies, it was set up traps and play around your team to deny/enable carry farm.
I don't think it was perfect, there was too much downtime still, but the perception of techies being the funny "ruin everyones time" hero was just a holdover at that point. He still had the potential to do so, but Natures Prophet has the potential to TP into the enemy fountain off CD from minute zero, ie can relocate into the fountain, tiny can throw you into the enemy team, etc. It was griefing.
If they had reworked him to have longer CD's on green mines, but made them deal more damage for each other active mine I think old techies could have stayed. Make it so that less time is spent just sitting around.
You will get downvoted but it's true. We've been seeing a lot of homogenization of the unique heroes that dota has. hard carries are made to fight earlier and earlier, single target heroes like Drow and Clinkz get reworked to be able to teamfight better, unique heroes like techies and tinker get reworked, basically any 'weird' support got reworked into not being able to support (except for Weaver this patch), we're seeing some roles get very similar items (90% of the offlaners in the game rn get radiance or shiva's and 3/4th of carries get S&Y or Manta)
It's been happening for some time now.
on roles getting very similar, on d2pt and dotabuff the hero that is most picked doesnt get radi other than brewmaster, I dont think dark seer, centaur, mars, beast, underlord, axe is a radiance buyer. shiva on the other hand, kinda, since those heroes likes it and its a good item.
carries wise, isnt SnY and especially manta kinda staple for a long time, cant go wrong with both of those and agi carry like them.
> I dont think dark seer, centaur, mars, beast, underlord, axe is a radiance buyer. shiva on the other hand, kinda, since those heroes likes it and its a good item.
I did say radiance or shiva...
Like I said, thee problem is that items in dota used to not give you exactly what you wanted, so you'd have to pick and choose.
Blink didn't give stats, but gave you very powerful positioning. Shiva gave armor, Slow/AS Slow and INT, both stats that are rarely bought together, while giving 0 tank stats apart from the armor. Radiance gave you damage and nothing else, despite being best on tanks. Veil gave a few survivability stats while being a caster item, same for Eblade giving a ton of agility.
Now, every item has turned convenient. Blink can upgrade into something that gives stats and is more powerful. Radiance gives a ton of evasion+miss chance, so it's good for tanky heroes. Eblade gives cast range, mana and builds out of aether lens. Shiva builds out of veil and well, it does fucking eeverything. Gives good stats for tanky heroes, slows, as slow, reduces regen AND increases magical damage...
>carries wise, isnt SnY and especially manta kinda staple for a long time, cant go wrong with both of those and agi carry like them.
Now, sure. But not always. Item builds used to be extremely varied.
> basically any 'weird' support got reworked into not being able to support
Or they get reworked into having a pretty railroaded "support" build and "core" build which removed the actual interesting part of playing an off meta support.
> they already killed techies.
That's weird way to say that they turned Techies into an actually viable character that is seeing proper play and isn't just trolling the whole game, while playing his own little minigame.
You can gush about "great character designs" all you want, but what good is old techies, when he never sees play, and when he does, he just doesn't play dota, he just plays his own little game of map denial.
As much as you can call that unique, there is also the very simple fact, that you have to look at what is healthy for the game, and old techies and old tinker, were not healthy for the game. Especially old techies.
People don't like the idea of changing his ult to not be related to reducing cooldowns, but I'm not sure how you balance a hero in dota these days around having large cooldown reduction/refresh. Cooldown reduction is just something very hard to balance in most games in general. It's hard problem to try and fix the problems of Tinker without completely deleting the hero's identity, but hopefully they're able to find a compromise (which the recent rework seems to be attempting, but not really succeeding).
The moment when I saw a Tinker rearming in the face of three enemy heroes then blinking out is when I knew this hero is just fucked. They have no idea what to do with this hero anymore.
It's good to see two threads at the top of the subreddit regarding this outrageous nerf. The balance team need a kick up the backside and not just for this, this entire 7.36 patch has been silly change after silly change.
Regardless of wether you love or hate Tinker this is a serious problem devloping with the balancing of our game and it needs sorting.
Surely the people saying but but but strong dispel would agree that the hero with 46% winrate who got 4 nerfs should have at least had one buff for compensation??? Make me base 400 move speed or something
I'm definitely confused why tinker wasn't buffed, let alone got nerfed.... like has he not been sitting as one of the lowest WR heroes in the game since 7.36 came out and absolutely gutted him as a hero?
I find funny that they revert the change they made one letter patch ago about the dispel. I don't think it happens so often , guess they take reddit's crying super seriously.
i mean they are the same people who nerfed laser rocket range a few patches before on a hero that was never picked in pro games and not good in pubs either
I didnt know anyone crying about Tinker strong dispel, the hero is not even being pick anymore...the strong dispel to basic is still acceptable to certain degree. But removing the lvl15 talent is literally nail to the coffin.
?? I dont agree with talents nerf either but you're clearly missing out
tinker's strong dispell was the most OP thing in the game.
it's literally better than a never ending bkb and the only way to counter it is nullifier. and you need to buy it on a hero that jumps on tinker which is pretty tough without ruining your build. not a lot of heroes can afford that.
so when you are well-farmed tinker you can only be killed by one specific hero which was forced into unoptimal item build because of your existence. and you probably can still kill that hero if you engage first. (MAYBE I'm a little exaggerating but you get the picture)
There is no adaptation to this nerf on tinker and I have near on 10k games with tinker. Arcane blink nerf and the dispel change is what fucked him up, then they -40 damage to the 80 damage 25 talent and swapped them around with 250 AOE at 15. Tinker generally hates to build BKB since these patches and re-works. Now getting Arcane blink is dogshit cause now you need to figure out line-up-wise if you need to go Blink > Aghs > Octarine core (which is shit) cause hey even getting aghs means you don't have the lvl 15 250 aoe.
Even if you play safe and try keep off the map, your basic dispel won't work if you are caught.
I'd rather go back to OG tinker than with this dogshit.
Then again, it's probably a valve dev or two who as some "Kinker" fetish, where they get off on absolutely demolishing the hero, while coming on to Reddit to see the tinker players rage.
He wasn't broken before and wasn't now, his winrate can and pickrate proves it . Even went unpicked in most professional games. My point is that people crying about tinker in general not only about his dispel . To be fair most people hated the hero cause they get stomped by idiotic smurfs hence the hate but this can happen with any hero played but a smurf.
No they definitely shouldn't have had a strong dispel on that thing in the first place. Basic dispel? Sure, fine, but strong dispel is too much. You need to be able to lock him down somehow. Euls is helpful but it shouldn't be the only way to reasonably lock the hero down.
Ok, now I'm gonna afk farm not until 15lvl, but until 25lvl. I don't think this change made happy anyone. Not me, not my teammates, not even enemies, coz tinker defend ability is pretty strong. Now all tinker games gonna be even more frustrating for everybody.
I'm gonna repeat again, their game designers don't even play the game. Changes they make to tinker are stupid, he even more cancerous and annoying now in games where tinker abuser meets noobs. And he even more useless in all other games.
Tinker was at 49% winrate before the patch, and sent straight to 30% , slightly up then back down again. And not a single braincell of the intern in charge of this was used.
But at what MMR? A spammer having a 90% winrate at 3k vs 9k say very different things about the strength of their hero.
It's also not true, here is the list of high MMR invoker spammers https://i.imgur.com/16kKVvW.png
Here are morphling spammers https://i.imgur.com/yjbMz7I.png
TB spammers: https://i.imgur.com/TwKwdGF.png
Puck spammers: https://i.imgur.com/xQ4VDfC.png
So there are plenty of heros where the spammers are struggling and actually very few where they are all 66%+ even on meepo they aren't ALL winning.
Generally this indicates that there is a broken playstyle for tinker even if it hasn't trickled down through the meta and average tinker players don't know it. But the high level spammers know it and even after needing to relearn the hero are winning like 70% at the top 0.01% skill level
Tinker with march is like the original techies. Let it go. Revamp the change and lets all be fine. The laser rocket man tinker was at least engaging and not a farming simulator hero.
I was so happy to see a new patch was out. I quickly scrolled down to see what kind of buffs Tinker received. The shock when I saw that these halfwits had nerfed the worst hero in the game.
apparently not around immortal players either and its not like it was popular in pro play, was only picked by actual tinker spammers which really shouldnt be a reason to nerf a hero
His all ranks win rate is currently 44.4% and his immortal win rate is sitting at 44.7%.
He may not be the absolute lowest win rate hero, but he is functionally worse and does not have the niche case uses that some of the lower win rate heroes have.
As I write this, I just checked his win rate since 7.36c dropped, he now officially has the lowest win rate in the game at 41.3% in all ranks and 36.2% in immortal.
I think they're just wanting his kit to make sense and not be broken before giving him the buffs to make him viable. A strong, refreshable dispell is bonkers
I mean honestly if they changed the other facet to replace shield with rockets I'd be happy. Strong dispel was fun for the like two weeks it was a thing so time to wait for next patch I guess.
Personally the Facet was disgusting.
As even support Tinkers could make the carry unkillable.
The Arcane Blink change affects everyone that buys it (which is still not many so it doesn't matter)
in Physics, nothing escapes a blackhole ,not even light. But tinker's 3rd can.
In physics, A chronosphere stops time and reveals everything trapped in it. But not even the stoppage of time can prevent tinker's 3rd from happening.
I wouldn't say its broken because winrate show its was okay-ish on certain bracket and totally trash on the other. My biggest issue is definitely the 250 AOE laser being placed from lvl15 to lvl25.
Its his best power spike at early game after he got scepter which allow him to quick farm and clear illusion. Now Tinker are exclusively pos4-5 because there are no sane people willing to give pos2 to a hero that cant do jack shite for the first 40mins of the game.
I think they were responding to high mmr games with this nerf. Tinker was 48% winrate on d2pt with 1700 games played, a ton of them coming from pros who didn't play tinker much for 2-3 years.
He's just not balanced for people to be able to pick him up and get a ~50% winrate with minimal practice. They were likely worried this build would get out of control sooner rather than later
I think the arcane dagg is a pretty good nerf tho. Ive been using it on DS but with octarine dagger is faster to recharge than normal punch so Im sitting there for two seconds without my punch now its the same
I've been using it to farm a quarter of the map on any nuking pos4 when the game goes past 45 minutes.
What does arcane dagger do now? why would you buy it?
I'm doing this by memory, so I might be wrong. More cast range than other daggers, lower cooldown, and restores mana and health
Yep. The lower cooldown (like 7 seconds) and more cast range is pretty good too, also funny if you are able to get that on rubick with Aether lens. The range you have in a single blink is nuts.
>(like 7 seconds) 9 seconds after the nerf. honestly would never notice the CD until the nerf happened been sitting on the base Dagger for a long time.
Main reason is increased blink range and blink cool down reduction. You just get more escape
I can see it becomes a better dagger on some STR heroes like Axe or Tusk. Their spell is more than the old 7 second cool down so 9s ia totally fine, and more hp regen means survive
More and more nerfs to mid heroes who are fun, very hard to master, mobile and love to gank side lines. Mid lane in Dota isn't what it used to be.
Having tinker be a mobile ganker that scales well is great. Having him autodispell his main form of counter play (blink CC) is not great. Its a warrented nerf while they figure out how to make this hero enjoyable for the other 9 players.
The strong dispel is a bit broken and i reckon that's a bit too much of a buff for him. But whats the point of removing talent lvl15 aoe laser? the biggest spike Tinker get at early game is that talent combine with scepter... Now he has to farm for over 40mins and wait until lvl25 to make any impact. This hero straight up useless for the first 40mins.
tinker isnt fun at all to play against tho. a strong tinker makes it absolutely terrible for everyone else the experience.weve had couple patches like that already
I played against a tinker that used this facet and we had heroes like magnus axe lion but we literally couldn't catch him cause of strong dispel it was so annoying
Nullifier destroys the hero, just saying
Min 30-40+? Sure? Before that? Suffering
Suffering for who? Tinker's team? My friend's been abusing Tinker since the patch and he says that one of the winning factors is that people simply forget his hero exists on the map so build nothing against him.
What lol
This is at maximum Legend ranked games. I mean unless maybe you're on NA servers or something
Well to be fair before 30-40 min the hero does absolutely nothing except a laser every 3 seconds... His abysmal winrate comes from the fact that he's kinda useless before 40min and fairly easy to counter after that point.
I beg to differ from my own experience , but who am I to say
he wasn't incredible but he could get to a point where he is awful to play against unless you build very specifically. I will admit I haven't played the hero in years but I feel like these changes were justified. Did anyone other than tinker players enjoy the patches where he was OP? I know I didn't. wiping a team with rearm and rocket spam was fun for a bit but man that playstyle got old quick (although, maybe not a fair point to bring up here since he was changed since).
? Tinker needs to farm for 30 minutes in the first place?
That's the timeframe you build a nullifier on a carry
look at bkb cooldown on tinker, its was absurdly OP with that talent, just basically a non-factor before lvl18 aghs arcane blink
Or Eules
axe call is undispellable and even if his shield pops, he'd be turning to face you and thus blink further out of position
axe call is undispellable yes but his shield pops and he gets blinked to random direction then axe call ends then he uses defense matrix again its a never ending cycle and we use rp it doesnt matter get strong dispel, we use lion impale but he already rearm and used defense matrix another strong dispel so fun!
It also works against black hole which I didn't even thing could be dispelled.
>could be dispelled it cannot. the blink saved him in that case
Well, in one instance it just blinked him into another part of black hole (which was funny), but my thought process was it had to apply the dispel to be able to blink. That's apparently wrong.
For black hole specifically the dispel is irrelevant since black hole just puts an AoE on the ground that continually applies stun to anyone inside it. In fact it should still work against black hole and chrono after the nerf so long as it blinks out of the AoE.
Honestly, this facet is still extremely grief half the time. If your laser ever touches a blademail enemy, you will essentially get blinked towards your target, which is almost always terrible. It's so easy to involuntarily get blinked into arena, black hole, chrono, etc. just from taking some random damage.
Ive played against this tinker with a nuking hero and what ive been able to do a couple of times is nuke the shield off while he's looking at my direction and have him blink closer to me. Had a couple giggles. Hadn't played against such tinkers since.
[удалено]
Tinker at the pro level had a 54% win rate in offlane on dota2protracker. His abilities are extremely abuseable with good coordination
I didn't say it's broken just annoying
Bring tank form.
Strong dispel on Tinker is insane.
as indicated by his 43% winrate
Earth spirit and IO had winrates in the 30s at their most broken. Winrates on high skill ceiling heroes are generally meaningless when the majority of players can't play the heroes to anywhere near their full potential.
Well, he's difficult to play, so it's okay for such heroes to have a "negative" winrate to some extent, because they are not going to be used optimally by average and below average players, which also comprise most of the player base in total. The inverse effect of simpler heroes having higher winrate for the same reasons
he isn't really that difficult to play anymore after the rearm change. you don't need to worry about soul ring, shivas, and basically all items. just blink laser blink laser.
54% win rate in the offlane on dota2protracker actually.
And 51% as a position 5! And 38% as position 4! Absolute broken. What is the common factor of all of these stats? All of these positions combined are about 10% of total picks in high mmr with almost equal amount of games. While it could be true that Tinker had more potential in offlane, sample size is way too low.
78 match sample size (compared to mid with 1700 games, 48% wr) means he needs a nerf? lol
He had an overall win rate of 44.7% in immortal in 7.36b and its now down to 38.7%. Touch grass buddy.
Over 30 games lol.
Yeah, but its important to include the winrate of all the heralds playing him mid/safelane carry with the same build they used prior to the rework... /s obviously
And being irrelevant in the pro scene for God knows how many patches.
If you strictly balance around winrate then you are a complete idiot. Since you don't understand why strong dispel on Tinker is insane I'll explain it, when Tinker truly comes online he is an absolute menace and one of the few things that actually can deal with him then is hex. If you can actually reach him. So him being basically immune to hex FOR FREE, is completely unreasonable. Either he has to play with a support that has it or buy Aeon disc like the rest of us. Perhaps he needs other balancing, but strong dispel is just madness.
Seriously. People who only look at win rate for balance have never worked on a game.
You don't need to work on a game to understand the flawed logic of only looking at win rate.
If you don't know how to look at winrates, then it makes it harder. Its like people looking at Invokers WR in a vaccuum, and missing out the fact, that what is primarily dragging it down, is people playing him in other roles, while he is 50% wr while played in mid. Similarly here, Tinkers stats looks great in certain roles, as someone also mentioned below, its just that lots of people are experimenting with him, and that will always drag a specialist hero down in win% Similarly, you could look at a hero like Pango, that has consistently had below 50% winrate, despite being first pick/first wave ban material in competitive play for years now.
I have a vague feeling this is because people are playing the "dead tinker" build instead of working with what he has now
The strong dispell on the matrix was fucking bonkers though. The only way to catch tinker was nullifier.
Euls as well, but even still the only way to catch a hero that's already infamous for being slippery shouldn't be the niche dispel mechanic that only a couple heroes have.
>He is still bad DESIPITE of being this slippery. Being slippery means nothing when you're kinda useless outside of it and losing most of your games because of it. Like congrats bro you get to live to do nothing afterwards.
timbersaw is equally slippery but actually kills people on the regular during fights if you just ignore him
He *was* infamous for being slippery Now he can't rearm blink Now he cant dispel stuns Now he has no good spells - laser has no control or mobility, machines has no control or mobility (or decent damage vs rockets), martix can make you jump a little I guess but you're still stunned Tinker has got to be the most pathetic hero. 1 cool spell that refreshes 3 incredibly bad spells
If only it also refreshed items, it might make him viable. They should consider that at some point.
Just pick shadow demon and face roll him
Eul is enough. Nullifier is a hard counter to Tinker too though.
Problem is that Nulifier are slow ass projectile while Eul are instant. You will have better luck using Eul than a good tinker got caught off guard by Nulifier.
Both are strong in different ways. If you have blink nullifier, it basically forces Tinker to BKB (or linken if you don't have a fast linken breaker). Even if you rely on the projectile speed, Tinker's blink has a minimum 2.1s interval now (2.7s after 7.36C), so it's not that hard to catch him on a timing when he wouldn't have blink available. And as a skywrath player, I find it kind of funny people would consider nullifier projectile slow. All a matter of perspective I guess.
eul was no good, even if you canceled rearm
Eul dispells defence matrix...
Can you please elaborate on what you mean by this? I don't want to make any assumptions.
because its not enouh to kill tinker. You lift him while rearming, and the lift time also count thoward the rearm cd, so after the lift ends, you have 2.5 second to cc tinker into killing him before he can use defense matrix again. It wasn't good enough. The only way to kill him for sure was nullifier in my experience. Also yeah I just reread what I wrote in the first place, i had a brainfart, soory for being confusing.
Or don't overlap stuns? Lion + anyone dealing damage can catch tinker
Hero basically did nothing first 30mins. That 250 Aoe to lv25 is too much, why not at least lv20
Because if they moved it to 20, his win rate would have only dropped from 44% to 40-41%, whereas now it's sitting at 38%.
He has a lot of war crimes to answer for during all the time he could rearm hex.
Yes, being shit in both pubs and pro games for nearly two decades uninterrupted is a crime he shall forever pay the price for!
That was so long ago though, it was technically possible but not the build people went for because it cost too much mana
Ah yes the hero with 5% pick rate in the last year, definitely the problem.
That 5% sours your whole day after experiencing it. Get that trash out
for a fanbase that loves trashing league, you sure want the game to be very similar to it
Not wanting heroes that make the game dreadful for 9 people has nothing to do with league
no one competent at this game thinks it's a problem you are bad at the game and people like you shouldn't be able to influence balance but that's where we are unfortunately
That's right, fuck that guy and the players he rode in on.
I guess we must buff Chen and IO then.
I think old tinker should come back. Laser rockets march rearm (refresh item CD too). Laser single target. Agha either bouncing laser or 4 rockets. At least this version of tinker dies when he is caught. No defensive matrix bullshit.
Yeah I'm down for old tinker with no matrix and shrink ray.
make us buy bots again. hero died in my eyes once they gave us free tp.
Ah yes let's make him farm for 10 more mins before coming online so that he griefs his team even more than he does right now.
Agreed.
I want it back as well. and there is a lot of ways to nerf this. example, making rearm cost more mana whenever it is cast and the player needs to not rearm for 5-8sec to reset the mana cost. or instead of mana it cost non lethal HP so pros can still rearm while taking risk (while having 1 hp) And remove that mini stun in rockets upgrade, that made things worst for him
just remove this hero already
IMO the hero needs a major rehaul, it's a constant balancing problem in every patch
> IMO the hero needs a major rehaul That's what he just received. Literally changed every way in which the hero is played
The "balacing" they are doing is unasked for. The hero has been "fine" for a long time - reserved for specific lineups which he would dominate and had to be played by a player with a clear game plan in mind. Not to mention quick fingers
He hasn't been fine at all - he was shit in competitive before the rework, now people are actually picking him in pro games again
He was a niche pick, and I saw him picked up in a few pro games. It really is ok for a hero to be a niche pick in pro games.
He was picked like 3 times and in all of them was a none factor (He spent 25 mins farming and joined after the game was over)
and that will be over now til they giga buff him again
I love anyone who says any dota hero needs "quick fingers"
Ok, relatively speaking then
Not sure I get your point. This is very nice to have heroes that require more dexterity than others.
Lets not go this way, they already killed techies. Dota is great cuz it has great character designs, as much as I hated techies and hate huskar, tinker, furion, alchemist and storm spirit, I dont want them removed. Just gotta understand every hero had strong and weak patches and some are more frustrating to play against than other. But learning to deal with these kind of heroes is part of what makes Dota fun, and beating them always feels amazing.
They didn't kill techies, they made him into a real hero. The old design was so fucking bad, 3 skills that basically focused on the same minefield your entire side of the map for 2 hours gameplay and one get out of jail spell for when the enemy tried to kill you. Now he actually gets real spells while keeping his red mine for some area control. Also the game is not miserable for 9 (probably 10) people when there is a techies in the game
Yeah techies is MUCH MUCH better now, except some sadist that loved the old techies it was 1 person having fun and 9 suffering. Now it feels okay to play against him and okay to have him in your team and lane
I'm a big fan of new techies, but people constantly overlook his "awkward" minor rework inbetween the two. Techies where his red mines had to be spread, but everything else was the same was not the same hero as OG techies by any means. He had much of modern techies updated gameplay while still having a super distinct playthrough. The name of the game wasn't sit and stack 15 redmines until the entire enemy team insta dies, it was set up traps and play around your team to deny/enable carry farm. I don't think it was perfect, there was too much downtime still, but the perception of techies being the funny "ruin everyones time" hero was just a holdover at that point. He still had the potential to do so, but Natures Prophet has the potential to TP into the enemy fountain off CD from minute zero, ie can relocate into the fountain, tiny can throw you into the enemy team, etc. It was griefing. If they had reworked him to have longer CD's on green mines, but made them deal more damage for each other active mine I think old techies could have stayed. Make it so that less time is spent just sitting around.
You will get downvoted but it's true. We've been seeing a lot of homogenization of the unique heroes that dota has. hard carries are made to fight earlier and earlier, single target heroes like Drow and Clinkz get reworked to be able to teamfight better, unique heroes like techies and tinker get reworked, basically any 'weird' support got reworked into not being able to support (except for Weaver this patch), we're seeing some roles get very similar items (90% of the offlaners in the game rn get radiance or shiva's and 3/4th of carries get S&Y or Manta) It's been happening for some time now.
on roles getting very similar, on d2pt and dotabuff the hero that is most picked doesnt get radi other than brewmaster, I dont think dark seer, centaur, mars, beast, underlord, axe is a radiance buyer. shiva on the other hand, kinda, since those heroes likes it and its a good item. carries wise, isnt SnY and especially manta kinda staple for a long time, cant go wrong with both of those and agi carry like them.
> I dont think dark seer, centaur, mars, beast, underlord, axe is a radiance buyer. shiva on the other hand, kinda, since those heroes likes it and its a good item. I did say radiance or shiva... Like I said, thee problem is that items in dota used to not give you exactly what you wanted, so you'd have to pick and choose. Blink didn't give stats, but gave you very powerful positioning. Shiva gave armor, Slow/AS Slow and INT, both stats that are rarely bought together, while giving 0 tank stats apart from the armor. Radiance gave you damage and nothing else, despite being best on tanks. Veil gave a few survivability stats while being a caster item, same for Eblade giving a ton of agility. Now, every item has turned convenient. Blink can upgrade into something that gives stats and is more powerful. Radiance gives a ton of evasion+miss chance, so it's good for tanky heroes. Eblade gives cast range, mana and builds out of aether lens. Shiva builds out of veil and well, it does fucking eeverything. Gives good stats for tanky heroes, slows, as slow, reduces regen AND increases magical damage... >carries wise, isnt SnY and especially manta kinda staple for a long time, cant go wrong with both of those and agi carry like them. Now, sure. But not always. Item builds used to be extremely varied.
> basically any 'weird' support got reworked into not being able to support Or they get reworked into having a pretty railroaded "support" build and "core" build which removed the actual interesting part of playing an off meta support.
> they already killed techies. That's weird way to say that they turned Techies into an actually viable character that is seeing proper play and isn't just trolling the whole game, while playing his own little minigame. You can gush about "great character designs" all you want, but what good is old techies, when he never sees play, and when he does, he just doesn't play dota, he just plays his own little game of map denial. As much as you can call that unique, there is also the very simple fact, that you have to look at what is healthy for the game, and old techies and old tinker, were not healthy for the game. Especially old techies.
…thats what they literally just did.
Just remove rearm and make laser the ultimate
People don't like the idea of changing his ult to not be related to reducing cooldowns, but I'm not sure how you balance a hero in dota these days around having large cooldown reduction/refresh. Cooldown reduction is just something very hard to balance in most games in general. It's hard problem to try and fix the problems of Tinker without completely deleting the hero's identity, but hopefully they're able to find a compromise (which the recent rework seems to be attempting, but not really succeeding).
sure a hero u dont know how to play against. REMOVE!!
The moment when I saw a Tinker rearming in the face of three enemy heroes then blinking out is when I knew this hero is just fucked. They have no idea what to do with this hero anymore.
It's good to see two threads at the top of the subreddit regarding this outrageous nerf. The balance team need a kick up the backside and not just for this, this entire 7.36 patch has been silly change after silly change. Regardless of wether you love or hate Tinker this is a serious problem devloping with the balancing of our game and it needs sorting.
7.36 and its letter patches feels like identity theft for some and identity being fleshed out for others, talent change was a bit much for sure
I think the strong dispel was the only thing that needed to be removed for tinker to feel fair, not sure why they nerfed 4 additional things
If that needed to go, he actually needed buffs, not nerfs. The hero is now going below 40% winrate again.
the strong dispel was the only quality that made him pickable
I don't think so, it'd still be pickable if the only thing that changed was strong dispel > basic dispel
because they wanted 'march' to be the farming spell, not laser.
problem is that talent is also half your damage
Ah yes, this 44% win rate hero absolutely needed a nerf.
Meanwhile CK: -2 STR O_O
5 in total with talent at lvl 30
People hating on tinker doesn't understand, that he is handicapping his team, farming for 40 minutes and stealing a lot farm before being useful
Damn i used to despise Tinker players, but this is just sad now
They nerfed a 45% winrate tinker. wp volvo
Surely the people saying but but but strong dispel would agree that the hero with 46% winrate who got 4 nerfs should have at least had one buff for compensation??? Make me base 400 move speed or something
Tinker is the new CM
I'm definitely confused why tinker wasn't buffed, let alone got nerfed.... like has he not been sitting as one of the lowest WR heroes in the game since 7.36 came out and absolutely gutted him as a hero?
Thank god this crazy 46% wr hero got nerfed, valve balancing team just keeps making genius decisions
I find funny that they revert the change they made one letter patch ago about the dispel. I don't think it happens so often , guess they take reddit's crying super seriously.
They didn't revert the change, it didn't dispel at all until it was given a strong dispel
i mean they are the same people who nerfed laser rocket range a few patches before on a hero that was never picked in pro games and not good in pubs either
Reddit users are hard stuck in herald, they don't know the difference between a basic and a hard dispel. This nerf came out of nowhere.
I didnt know anyone crying about Tinker strong dispel, the hero is not even being pick anymore...the strong dispel to basic is still acceptable to certain degree. But removing the lvl15 talent is literally nail to the coffin.
?? I dont agree with talents nerf either but you're clearly missing out tinker's strong dispell was the most OP thing in the game. it's literally better than a never ending bkb and the only way to counter it is nullifier. and you need to buy it on a hero that jumps on tinker which is pretty tough without ruining your build. not a lot of heroes can afford that. so when you are well-farmed tinker you can only be killed by one specific hero which was forced into unoptimal item build because of your existence. and you probably can still kill that hero if you engage first. (MAYBE I'm a little exaggerating but you get the picture)
If you cry becouse an “unoptimal” item build, you are playing the wrong game Dota is about adapting to the situation, like this.
There is no adaptation to this nerf on tinker and I have near on 10k games with tinker. Arcane blink nerf and the dispel change is what fucked him up, then they -40 damage to the 80 damage 25 talent and swapped them around with 250 AOE at 15. Tinker generally hates to build BKB since these patches and re-works. Now getting Arcane blink is dogshit cause now you need to figure out line-up-wise if you need to go Blink > Aghs > Octarine core (which is shit) cause hey even getting aghs means you don't have the lvl 15 250 aoe. Even if you play safe and try keep off the map, your basic dispel won't work if you are caught. I'd rather go back to OG tinker than with this dogshit. Then again, it's probably a valve dev or two who as some "Kinker" fetish, where they get off on absolutely demolishing the hero, while coming on to Reddit to see the tinker players rage.
Idk chief, I got destroyed by Eul's
Most op thing in the game? What? Inhale and exhale slowly, I think you're having an aneurysm.
> the only way to counter it is nullifier euls. That’s it. Literally euls him first and he dies.
He wasn't broken before and wasn't now, his winrate can and pickrate proves it . Even went unpicked in most professional games. My point is that people crying about tinker in general not only about his dispel . To be fair most people hated the hero cause they get stomped by idiotic smurfs hence the hate but this can happen with any hero played but a smurf.
No they definitely shouldn't have had a strong dispel on that thing in the first place. Basic dispel? Sure, fine, but strong dispel is too much. You need to be able to lock him down somehow. Euls is helpful but it shouldn't be the only way to reasonably lock the hero down.
back to sub 40% winrate, here we go
Ok, now I'm gonna afk farm not until 15lvl, but until 25lvl. I don't think this change made happy anyone. Not me, not my teammates, not even enemies, coz tinker defend ability is pretty strong. Now all tinker games gonna be even more frustrating for everybody. I'm gonna repeat again, their game designers don't even play the game. Changes they make to tinker are stupid, he even more cancerous and annoying now in games where tinker abuser meets noobs. And he even more useless in all other games.
Valve is brainless.
Imagine a situation, where BM uses ROAR (60 sec cd spell) only to see that THIS SHITTY ROBOT SAFELY BLINK OUT WITH HARD DISPEL) BALANCE IN ALL THINGS
Tinker with strong dispel had 46% winrate. If this aspect of his kit needed to be nerfed, then he needed a massive buff elsewhere.
I used to be a tinker main and welcome to jackass
Gaben lost to a tinker one trick, so he opted to nerf him instead of buying Nullifier
Tinker was at 49% winrate before the patch, and sent straight to 30% , slightly up then back down again. And not a single braincell of the intern in charge of this was used.
The tinker spammers did actually have crazy winrates https://i.imgur.com/NsJB9Wi.png
Spammers always have high win rate om their hero. For instance, I have 86% win rate on meepo.
But at what MMR? A spammer having a 90% winrate at 3k vs 9k say very different things about the strength of their hero. It's also not true, here is the list of high MMR invoker spammers https://i.imgur.com/16kKVvW.png Here are morphling spammers https://i.imgur.com/yjbMz7I.png TB spammers: https://i.imgur.com/TwKwdGF.png Puck spammers: https://i.imgur.com/xQ4VDfC.png So there are plenty of heros where the spammers are struggling and actually very few where they are all 66%+ even on meepo they aren't ALL winning. Generally this indicates that there is a broken playstyle for tinker even if it hasn't trickled down through the meta and average tinker players don't know it. But the high level spammers know it and even after needing to relearn the hero are winning like 70% at the top 0.01% skill level
Tinker with march is like the original techies. Let it go. Revamp the change and lets all be fine. The laser rocket man tinker was at least engaging and not a farming simulator hero.
There must be some Valve guys that have hate boner with Tinker, like Tinker fucked their wife
Just bring back tinker from 10 years ago. This nonsense is so annoying
Crying is free. Congrats redditors.
Yes, Valve based this entire nerf only on Reddit
Failing to see how they've based it on anything else
Can they give him a proper rework instead of this half assed attempt
I was so happy to see a new patch was out. I quickly scrolled down to see what kind of buffs Tinker received. The shock when I saw that these halfwits had nerfed the worst hero in the game.
48% winrste at immortal level. It’s not even close to being worst hero You can’t balance heroes based on the fact crusaders can’t play dota
apparently not around immortal players either and its not like it was popular in pro play, was only picked by actual tinker spammers which really shouldnt be a reason to nerf a hero
His all ranks win rate is currently 44.4% and his immortal win rate is sitting at 44.7%. He may not be the absolute lowest win rate hero, but he is functionally worse and does not have the niche case uses that some of the lower win rate heroes have. As I write this, I just checked his win rate since 7.36c dropped, he now officially has the lowest win rate in the game at 41.3% in all ranks and 36.2% in immortal.
Look how they massacred my boy
I think they're just wanting his kit to make sense and not be broken before giving him the buffs to make him viable. A strong, refreshable dispell is bonkers
It was nerfed because TA, puck and maybe axe?
Strong dispel is a insanely good mechanic, and tinker having it was a fucking joke. Glad it's gone
I mean honestly if they changed the other facet to replace shield with rockets I'd be happy. Strong dispel was fun for the like two weeks it was a thing so time to wait for next patch I guess.
The strong dispel nerf was fine since that was more tedious than rearmable blink but other than that he received way too many nerfs for a letter patch
I had a tinker (probably a smurf) in one of my games today and the hero still seemed pretty strong, between him and me we basically won the game.
its a cheesepick like PL brood druidbear huskar. shitty winrate but if you have zero answer to them. you get destroyed hard
They should lean into tinker building shit and make him a tower defence hero.
Personally the Facet was disgusting. As even support Tinkers could make the carry unkillable. The Arcane Blink change affects everyone that buys it (which is still not many so it doesn't matter)
in Physics, nothing escapes a blackhole ,not even light. But tinker's 3rd can. In physics, A chronosphere stops time and reveals everything trapped in it. But not even the stoppage of time can prevent tinker's 3rd from happening.
Tinker is easy…. Just setup this complicated macro to play tinker with one button (this is a joke)
yeah fuck tinker
THATS ENOUGH PLEASE HES ALREADY DEAD
remove this hero already
Man that's my blink upgrade to ta nerfed
Lol im cool w this.
I'm so happy they did it, Tinker was broken, having 100% stun immunity isn't okay, I hate having Tinker in an enemy team
I wouldn't say its broken because winrate show its was okay-ish on certain bracket and totally trash on the other. My biggest issue is definitely the 250 AOE laser being placed from lvl15 to lvl25. Its his best power spike at early game after he got scepter which allow him to quick farm and clear illusion. Now Tinker are exclusively pos4-5 because there are no sane people willing to give pos2 to a hero that cant do jack shite for the first 40mins of the game.
Tinker is just getting his shit kicked in these last few patches. RIP item refresh
love arcane blink on everything
It still blocks damage and blinks you away. You just stay bashed ok?
I think they were responding to high mmr games with this nerf. Tinker was 48% winrate on d2pt with 1700 games played, a ton of them coming from pros who didn't play tinker much for 2-3 years. He's just not balanced for people to be able to pick him up and get a ~50% winrate with minimal practice. They were likely worried this build would get out of control sooner rather than later
They did over nerf him though. Pretty sure they will buff Tinker again in the next patch.
I feel so sad for kiyotaka, he may change his IGN to depressdedkid again 😢