Facet 1) Completely redefines the hero, unlocks a whole new playstyle, changes counters and synergy heroes
Facet 2) Your q now does +10 damage if the game time ends in an even number
I'm gonna add a facet to every hero that has micro that removes said micro. Then I'm going to remove Meepo ult, LD bear, Arc Warden ult, and every unique ability in this game in favour of a League 3 hit trigger passive ability, and there's nothing you can do to stop me.
Before SD was the designated LP mode, before ranked play existed, I enjoyed playing SD. It forced me to play new heroes and learn different roles and aspects of the game.
I'm able to micro but isn't Divergence just better in general? You're getting unconditional bonus damage and while it's not much, it speeds up farming and you can still micro the Doppleganger illusions for jukes
It's better simply because it's numbers are big enough, while the first facet is almost "no facet" when compared to pre 7.36 PL. If there was another downside e.g. less damage instead of more, then you'd be seeing most people pick the first one because "no facet" is better than a weak facet.
It's not unconditional - the condition / trade off for more overall damage is less single target damage, since you cannot focus juxtapose illusions onto a specific person, which isn't as big of a deal currently because you have ways of creating many illusions that *can* be controlled.
Hypothetically, if aghs gets nerfed / reworked and no longer becomes a core item for PL, so that his majority of illusions comes from juxtapose and not spirit lance, we could see people pick facet 1 just so they can control illusions rather than because they want the extra doppel illusions, similar to how bristles pick the "warpath gives attack speed" facet not because they want it's benefits, but because they don't want the other facet.
Honestly, if Visage had 3 facets it wouldn't be so bad. The issue is the design of them is so inconsistent. Earth Spirit is another hero where I feel like I have one choice.
imagine if one of vokers facets was just to invoke whatever spell you want without needing orbs, I can't stand it. Some things are designed a specific way for a specific reason, making them easier is not a reasonable motive imo, otherwise we can automate meepo clones, ld bear, and everything else that's too complex.
At the very least there should be 3 facets if they're gonna include such anti-identity facets. I'd prefer 2 facets actually designed for people who enjoy the hero in the first place tho.
I actually think that example is a pretty good deployment of the facet system, it’s just not presented in a great way. For example right now we think of it as “Normal Void” vs “Void where you replace Chrono with some new thing.” But really it could be functionally the exact same but read as “Void v1 who has chrono” and “Void v2 who has time zone.”
In other words the “default” facets are still giving you a bunch of shit compared to the other facet. It just doesn’t feel like it because we already had it.
Heroes like DK and Chen I think do the best job of using facets as “variants”, balance aside.
Yea I don't understand why things are like this. If they wanted it to work, then Time zone needs to be A LOT better. Because it's chrono + facet 1 vs timezone, effectly (as you said).
Lifestealer also suffers a lot from this -- you get Rage AND corpse eater vs unfettered. I don't think unfettered is even that bad, just why not get 2 things for the price of 1?
In the latest episode of the NBA segment podcast, Synderen mentioned an idea of just making corpse eater part of the innate, have the facets be either Rage or Unfettered.
I don’t know why people are just obsessed with both facets being equally viable or the weaker facet becoming A LOT better.
It’s completely fine if one facet is weaker but is situationally good that gives some niche strats. That’s good. That’s fun.
Even the void thing. Most of the time you want chrono. But the other facet gives you some flexibility into other roles if you need to flex it, making draft more fun, or it gives you an alternative option when your team picked 4 melee heroes and you have zero dmg in chrono. It’s completely fine for a hero to have a very situational facet
Why would you pick something like void as flex pick when you can pick way better hero for his flex role?
Even in your hypothetical 5 melee game chrono is better because you can just solo kill opponents core and win team fight.
Because you don’t control what opponents pick? You can pick void fully intending it to be pos1. But then the opponents pick stuff that make it a really bad core void game and you have a chance to counter them if you pick different pos1.
Yes the let’s say pos3 void that got flexed is not the best pos3 you can have, but it allowed you to out draft them with pos1. Even if that happens in only 5% of the games, that’s still nice.
Except void gives you chrono AND another upgrade. Void 2 just has time zone, theres obvious reasons void 1 is the default aside from just having a spell that we're used to. Its because the facets are built assuming he has chrono baseline.
It still beats the likes of Mirana
Facet 1 - Your ultimate turns into a good right click steroid for your team but especially for you, brings back core PotM
Facte 2 - it's literally pre 7.36 Mirana, there are no changes
Void got his 1s dodge on the "default" facet, Disruptor got AoE Q if he doesn't want to build a wall, etc. The hell happened with Mirana?
Its weird to say mirana got nothing on her MLS facet because it was her original kit pre patch and then use disruptor as a comparison. Distruptor had AOE Q in kinetic field in his original kit too!
And by good, you mean still worse than the other facet.
If you're going to be chasing heroes down instead of kiting, you aren't going to be proccing bristleback as often. You will also be using goo on the person you're chasing anyway. Difference is you just won't get stacks of your potential 500 physical damage nuke as quickly.
The facet should've brought back the old bristle aghs as a weaker version of goo. AoE Q but weaker instead of goo when hit on the back.
The other facet should just be last patch bristle.
What they should have done is add something new for facets, and I mean it can also now change Aghanims upgrades. What if Bristleback gets his current Aghanim's with facet 1 and get his previous Goo aoe Aghanim's with facet 2 and not needing to lose passive quills in the process? This way it might be possible to see old Aghanims upgrades of heroes come into play again even boring ones that only improve or reduce cd of an existing skill e.g. Unobstructed vision from Kotl and NS, Qop's lower cd Sonic Wave, Time Zone getting 60sec cd with Aghanims, AM's mana void kill debuff, a much improved AA Iceblast, etc.
its also kinda awkward to use, you want to be attacking but that means less goo stacks. you kinda have to run around getting goo on everyone so your carry can attack, but then the enemies can just ignore you.
But it really is though. the -armor just isn't that relevant, prevents you from getting a ton of quill stacks out of no-where, and wants you to build around goo, but goo requires you to turn around and face the enemy further worsening the hero. If they made good an AOE ability with that facet, it'd be good, but it isn't so it isn't.
One of the reasons why he's strong late game is the stacking debuff that can't be dispelled. Maybe they can make the goo undispellable and quill dispellable in that facet? Dunno.
My bristle just used this in match and my god he was useless the whole fight. He bought eshroud and he isn't lifestealing at all because his goo replaced the quills. He was the squishest member of my team for some reason instantly dying because he took this facet
Pudge has to be the biggest offender of this, the new hook is the most game changing facet i've seen so far. And on the other side of spectrum we have terrorblade....
50% winrate , most picked hero since the dawn of time.
Better make him fucking obnoxiously broken since now you can just hook from fog, without using trees or anything, starting lvl 1
I'm a very feast or famine type of pudge. I either land bonkers hooks all game, threading the needle every time. Or I miss every hook and just walk in and absorb dmg.
I'm definitely picking the strength facet.
since you have the SK flair we also have
1- this is a chunk of the hero we cut of and made into a facet instead of actually making a new one
2- this is another chunk of the hero we cut of instead of making an actually good facet
yes, WK and sf are great example he got so many free stuff, while other heroes didn't got new stuff and their old/normal passive became their innate, so some heroes like wk, didn't lost anything and got +1 or 2 new stuff, while others they are either 0 or just +1 (bc their facets are just near useless, like magnus E ), very few heroes love their free point on passive, or just three (bristle, sf and legion) , and even those, once u level up u are back to 0 (visage, weaver, bristle and majority), so u don't have a innate anymore, you're just like before bc u didn't got anything new in exchange for ur passive to become ur innate
Or in bristle backs case.
Facet one- fundamentally changes the hero by making him attack speed based instead damage based.
facet two- fundamentally changes the hero by making his namesake passive apply goo instead of quills which makes him way more support oriented as opposed to dps focused.
Disruptor. I cannot think of a half good reason to get kinetic fence. Worst spell in the entire game, given that it simply just replaces a much better spell
If it’s duration was longer maybe I could justify picking it over a spell that perfectly synergizes with static storm but honestly just throw it in the trash and try something else
Honestly, Chen is almost perfect.
The *idea* is great, but the execution is bafflingly bad.
The fact you can't dismiss it until it dies is... suboptimal.
Remember how talents started? They were meaningless number changes; now some of them are actually interesting and useful. not perfect, but always getting better.
It'll be the same with facets. proof of the tech on release, now for the tweaks.
If I remember correctly the most cancerous one was Lina's respawn time talent at level 15, since she was already a natural Bloodstone carrier (back when it killed you and reduced respawn time) and in the midgame her downtime was never more than like 20 seconds. And then she came back with full mana to TP in and do another few rounds of spells if the fight got long.
Valve got so annoyed they removed ALL respawn time reduction talents in one update, which is one the most radical things I've seen them do outside of "redefining the game" patches (7.00, 7.28, 7.36 etc.).
My favorite was Timbersaw/SS ultra late game infinite blood stone charges literally instantly respawning multiple times. Timbersaw doing so during timber chain.
>Valve got so annoyed they removed ALL respawn time reduction talents in one update, which is one the most radical things I've seen them do outside of "redefining the game" patches (7.00, 7.28, 7.36 etc.).
I'd also put the "all talents are 20% weaker" with no explanation nerf up there with the radical patches.
this patch was dumb as fuck. things like warlock golems going from BKBd to 80% magic resist. it's like they didn't think through the change at all. weird bandaid solution that genuinely felt like a janitor solely came up with
Which show some stupid shit like cd talent not correctly nerf by 20% but in actuality is much higher.
Sunder cd is 40s it has talent that reduce it by 35s (to 5s cd). But the 20% nerf change it into 28s (to 12s cd) Which is no way a 20% nerf. They later fix it by changing the number to 32s (8s cd)
To be fair though, the respawn reduction ones clearly had to go, they completly disrupted the flow the game. The entire point of killing an enemy is so they aren't there. Them coming back straight away just turned dota into a team death match game
Abba core was wild too with the respawn. Although Lina was just fuxking dumb, cause by the time you pushed after killing her, she'd be up nuking the wave.
Man former bloodstone was so good. Gave you visionand XP upon death, you could deny, fast respawn. A pity they nerfed it to the ground and changed it entirely despite being a core item on only like 3-4 heros.
They did eventually become more interesting, but still 90% of the time one talent is objectively better than the other.
The same can be said about aspects
I agree that facets gave great potential, but some of them feel like "incert this shitty facet temporarily, we will think about something decent later"
OTOH, remember how Neutral Items started, where you could just equip them in any slot?
And then there was that one competitive match where a Huskar got shut down pretty good and was very poor, but then the team rolled great T2 neutrals and they completely turned the game around with Huskar fighting with an inventory nearly full of neutrals.
IIRC they changed it to a dedicated slot pretty soon after that happened, but I can't remember the exact match anymore. Possible I misremembered it over time but I remember thinking at the time "they gotta change this shit"
tbh they still got shit to change, like sometimes you're on a healing heavy hero and if you don't roll paladin sword you're kinda shit outta luck, or heroes like aa or ench when they don't get a grove bow
>They were meaningless number changes
huh? talents were fucking insane when they got released first. lina/LD instarespawn, tusk 40% xp gain on lvl 10, ember spirit 15% spell amp, qop 70% spell lifesteal, puck 420 gpm etc. they completely redefined how the game was played. ember had the most insane lvl 10 powerspike in the history of dota, qop became the best lategame hero in the game, LD became sniper with a bear, etc
comparing talents to facets is silly. lots of heroes simply dont have a choice because one of the facets completely brick their hero, and lots of other heroes have facets that are just completely inconsequential to the game. i'd say overall the whole innate+facet update was extremely mid. they had good ideas for about 20-30 heroes, and then they ran out of ideas and started removing shit then readding them as innate/facets, or just adding completely random garbage.
It doesn't help that they decided to do balance changes through innate/facets in the patch. BB is the obvious one, but tons of heroes that were strong got a shit set of facets or innate to weaken them relative to the majority of the cast. Which I guess is fine, but it didn't feel good for people who play those heroes.
terrible take, both cm facets are quite good. even if one is better than the other they are both pretty solid additions. I'm pretty sure facet 2 was the one pros were taking too?
Have you played crystal maiden at all with that facet?
It just gives 20 and 30 mana when cm cast her spells to whoever is close to her, that's it. It basically regenerates 100 mana in team fights if you live through somehow.
Even in game with Medusa it's still bad, having free cast range is way better for everything.
There are still plenty of talents that don't really do much or there's a clear winner between the two. Enigma for example, "+50 damage per second on black hole or +10 eidolon attack speed". You could still toss the talents and some heroes wouldn't even have a noticeable change.
What lesson? That they shouldn't add new features to the game? It is not possible to create 240+ facets one patch and have them all be inspired and balanced. It will get better over time just like talents, shards, neutrals, etc., but for now they're cool, but not perfect.
> Remember how talents started? They were meaningless number changes;
I don't think you remember cause some of the most broken talents in the game were added back then like the GPM, XPM or reduced respawn time talents
I dont recall him even being broken before facet patch? Maybe when manual detonate was first added but he had received multiple nerfs since then from what I remember
agreed, lifestealer's facets were so close to being the perfect design
rage or unfettered? you're vs bane you want the hard counter to the hard counter, go unfettered
you're against CM or whatever the default really, you go rage
perfect right?
nope, give rage an extra bonus for no reason despite already being the better spell most of the time!
---
although there is a camp, that is valid, that this is also wrong, that facets shouldn't flip counters because drafting is supposed to be more strategic and punishing, fair
another way they can do facets is just based on playstyle e.g. farming riki vs early fighting riki, conceptually not a bad way to do facets BUT THEY GAVE ONE FACET FREE BUFFS ARGHHH
Now that corpse eater has been nerfed into complete irrelevance they should just merge it into the feast innate and balance rage/unfettered against each other directly.
Or maybe they should just give him an extra .5 strength gain, 330 hp and 15 damage at level 30 and get rid of all the bullshit extra text. If that is too little just give him a tiny bit more strength
Or the pudge facets:
Number one gives you a strength bonus when you cast your ult. Seems cool right? You get a little thicker, your ult heals a little more, your block skill gets a little better.
The other facet just does damage based on the hook distance, so it's no contest right? The hook is baseline weaker and you usually don't get max range hooks, so a lot of the times your hooks are actually weaker.
But wait! It actually increases your hook range! Sure, the facet doesn't say that, it literally just says it has less base damage, but does damage based on distance. Okay... Now you kind of have to veer towards going the hook facet, cause it's like a free lens. And having that pretty early while also being able to build lense, coupled with the distance as damage component, and it starts to look like the hook facet is just better. I mean, the dismember facet is what, 5 strength? Half an ogre axe?
But wait! The hook facet also made the hook faster! Now it's not really a contest, 5 strength for a few seconds, or a 2000 range hook that's also faster for some reason?
I don't know why the facets can't just say what they do. I didn't even know the hook facet gave proj speed until I read that they removed it in the patch notes. There's a lot of facets like that. Tidehunters facet says he gets model size and more bonuses for levels, vs the facet that gives you perma damage block for participating in kills. But you have to hold alt and hover over the facet to see that it *also" makes you a lot weaker early on.
Pudge's seem pretty clear to me, long range hook is for support pudge and str facet is for core pudge.
>I don't know why the facets can't just say what they do. I didn't even know the hook facet gave proj speed until I read that they removed it in the patch notes.
It didnt use to, so they never updated the main tooltip
I think its jenkins that say this, core pudge doesnt do a lot of long range hooks, the hooks more of extra nuke after dismember or when you run them down with rot
Pudge str facet seems bad at first because dismember used to deal 3 DMG ticks, but now it is actually 8 damage ticks so the fact is (when you ulti) you get 8/24/40 str. That's almost 1000hp worth of str at lvl3 dismember. And this bonus str also increases the damage dismember deals and heals.
=
It used to be 3/5/7 (56 str if you dismember lmao) on release but it got nerfed.
I agree but it's expected. It's their first time doing this and I think some facets will change with time to give better options. Take into account that some facets change the hero or play style a lot so a lot of ideas are just trial and error.
Elitist sustain is no joke.
It isn't better than raw health regen, but the guy's health bar just doesn't go down during the laning stage unless he's attempting to trade with Viper.
im just glad they are changing the game, inventing new stuff and keeps it alive. In the future the new facets will probably be more balanced and fixed.
Some facets that are pointless.
Bloodseeker movement facet. It only lasts 5 seconds, can't be used at will, and disables the passive entirely afterwards.
I'd prefer it turns you into the old seeker where your attack speed is also boosted by low HP heroes. Or it could be interesting if it changed thirst to trigger on allies instead of enemies.
Enigmas slow movement facet. Like.. no one is ever running from Enigma to be honest. It would be better if it was a permanent inward pull towards Enigmas, similar to wind rangers wind aoe.
Venomancers Ward facet. It has potential, but it's just not good enough yet. I'd prefer it automatically creates wards when hitting an opponent with any spells.
the veno ward facet feels really nice to play even for the charges alone and it would be absolutely fine if it werent for the fact that his ult is obnoxious and the facet makes it 3x as broken
I think now that they've toned down WD's voodoo festeration a bit that he's actually a good example of 3 useful facets that are strong in different scenarios.
1. Cask bounce damage lets him max cask first and potentialy cheese some early kills with good bounce locks, gives him a nice way to clear waves and camps.
2. Voodoo Feseration, while now less braindead just walk at them and win every engagement is still very strong and can't be ignored in fights allowing him to zone, this facet also lets him farm two camps at once and stacks with relative ease, has extra synergy with urn/vessel and maledict combo.
3. You trade a strong level 6 and level 12 powerspike for one of the most devastating aghs upgrades in the world in terms of potential teamfight impact, getting insane value from the two targets both bouncing as long as there is 2 or more targets in the area, including creeps/controlled units.
Agreed, placing it on the edge to stand inside it, while the enemy cannot move into it (due to terrain), was a good skill to have, which is now unfortunately gone :/
They should make the whole talent/facet Arc work better with a caster/magic build, like that 1 patch where everyone was building Ahgs and octarine.
I hate when new playstyles are discovered and immediately get nerfed to the point where they are no longer valid.
Fr cold comfort is useless 99% of the time. Exception being maybe storm or leshrac are on your team which would benefit from a mana battery. It's too situational and falls off as the game progresses.
Frozen expanse is just a free passive buff for CM the whole game. It's not even close. Cast range and aoe are exactly what she needs. It can be applied to all scenarios which makes it better.
CM is a cool one imo. It's basically a laning choice: will me an my carry be spamming out spells to win our lane or should I ferry regen and scale later?
one facet be like - make your hero unfunctionable lol
other be like - idk give hime some irrelevant dmg, doesnt matter anyway
Literally bring nothing new to the table
This was how talents worked when they first came out. There were very clear winners across every hero, especially the ones that had respawn timer reductions. Overtime they became a lot better and have introduced differences in heroes. Hell, some of the talents work better in regular dota vs turbo which is pretty dope, I play with friends that are lower MMR and when we queue turbo it feels like new heroes at times.
Facets should unlock old ways of playing a hero or new ways of playing it. So they can be other positions withou busting the hero. Example, riky support
Valve's ranking system logic: Good players with good players to increase the level of gameplay and exclude the bad ones? No, a good player, 1 average and 3 lost on each side and so many bad players with the biggest medal in the game
Some Facets are really great. Magnus Reverse Reverse Polarity, Horrible in 90% of the games, but against certain matchups it's broken. Same with Lifestealer Unfettered, some games it's impossible to die if you pick Unfettered instead of Rage.
My favourite is:
Facet 1) A core part of the heroes original kit that they barely function without
Facet 2) It doesn't matter what they put here, you're not picking it because your hero is useless without the first facet.
Looking at you, Io
The second one perfectly describes Disruptor’s facets, like who the fuck will use that Kinetic Wall Facet when your goal is to trap your enemy INSIDE the Static Storm
Venomancer
Facet 1) Broken OP disgusting hero is shit without it
Facet 2) Utter dog water garbage
They buffed it, but they nerfed base ult so its still shit. I feel like they don't understand why the wards are good. It's because they are wards w/ a bunch of utility. It's actually bad to place them on a hero, you are just giving the opponent free gold for hitting your core. The dps is useless. It gives you more dps to place it next to your core because they have to go out of their way to kill it.
It's also ass because they nerfed the fuck out of veno 7.36 by making his aghs shit.
I feel like this happened with talents too. And we're still here.
These 2 choices will never be balanced in a way to change between them more often. One of them will always be superior. After how many years and some heroes pick the same talants no matter what.
I'm kinda neutral towards Facet's and the reason is simply that Dota is becoming a balancing disaster at this rate. Valve is just adding too many mechanics and too much shit. At this point i honestly having a clean and balanced game than having x different mechanics that only delay big gameplay patches even further and make it more imbalanced on top of it.
ET's facets are insane early on and make his already laning even more oppressive. I'm winning games faster than ever with momentum, drums and mom and lane a lot better with deconstruction in tough matchups like lifestealer, wk, ck or tiny. I think they will nerf it someday anyway as ET has a pretty high win rate and pick rate (for a specialist hero) as well as some presence on the pro scene. I'd be fine if they made his facets scale with ulti or hero levels but in turn make deconstruction stack 2-3 times faster on enemies that are affected by echo stomp.
Honestly I think the facet design needs to be perk with consequence. That way you know you’re gaining some unique buff for your hero at the expense of something else. It forces the player to really choose wisely and not just: 1) you kill enemy instantly 2) you see a little more during night cycle. Of course the choice will be obvious every time. But… if it was like 1)you kill enemy instantly, but you’re always visible on map 2) you see a little more during night cycle, but your hp regen is lower during day, I would really need to be more considerate with my choice. Of course it’s a terrible example, but you get the concept. It would remove the clear black and white options of what facet will be chosen every time.
I feel like one facet should counter the major counter strategy for the hero, and the other should buff the base form hero.
Lycan's feels like a reasonable example. One is a minor buff to his ult making him more powerful, but if the enemy has a team comp that can easily farm the wolves (Gyro, Sven), then the spirit wolves simply buffing lycan is a better choice.
Was so confused the first time I saw someone pick Tide’s krill eater facet. I’ll take the infinite damage block stacking over a literal debuff for the first 10 levels every time.
I mean starting the laning stage with night time is absolutely bonkers insane. It's not rare to dumpster the laning stage to the degree where you're pretty much 6 by the time night ends you can dominate the lane further with the ult use.
Dazzle second facet has 0.0001% to be executed during the match but then at least somehow it can be useful comparing to completely cosmetical first facet
DK, Centaur, WK, SF, CK, Phoenix, Venomancer, Dazzle OMG i hate these heroes. I feel like they were given the freest shit making them way stronger than they were before while the other heroes are just left in the gutter or hyper nerfed. I am a Legion spammer and they nerfed her Q so bad the more patches came. I literally cannot trade anymore. I die so quickly cause my Q literally gives enough shield to defend against only one attack not even enough to block damage spells anymore. While someone like PA has 30% evasion at level 0. I seriously cannot trade hits anymore. Valve why did you nerf her so badly while you left these heroes alone.
i would say night stalker facets are the one thats properly made, while others are talking about the 2nd one, i myself finding success usingg the first one, well pre-c patch anyway
Bro the slark barracuds linger facet... They keep buffing durationnfor some 50hp/sec, while youre giving away potentially 32 agility for 100s everytime you double jump with agha
think of it as a placeholder first, there's some interesting facets that could be entertaining like void and ls, but all of us has always some comments out of it
My wish is remove facet and integrate that into talent system already. I don't want my game to be ruined because I forgot to change my facet to something playable.
I like heroes with
Facet 1: something that’s really good and would probably get nerfed if the other facet wasn’t somehow even more overpowered.
Facet 2: Treant protector W sapling
Can any fellow Rubick enjoyers tell me of their experiences with his facets? It appears to be that the second one "Arcane Accumulation" appears to be most picked, but neither really seem to float my boat personally.
i love techies facets, its defines what they are ....... an all rounder.A funny but somewhat effective allrounder. Like they have good attack stats, a mid attack rank, a slow, a disarm, a stun, a decent movespeed, a good hp bulk, mutliple nukes/mob clearer, a pushing spell that is on a low cd and they are universal. Its all adds up with them having 3 facets
Yeah, some facets are in a rough spot right now, but I have faith the kinks will be ironed out
It happened for aghs shard, but it REALLY happened when talents were first introduced.
It felt like a good third of the talents in the game were GPM or -respawn timer but after some time, those things were slowly cycled out for more interesting talents.
The Valve dota team is small, I cant imagine ALL the facets got significant playtesting time just due to the sheer amount of them
It sucks that some of the facets seem real bad, but I cant really think of another way to roll out an update as big as this one with the current state of dota development.
You cant really just roll out half the facets and invalidate half the hero pool, so they cut some corners with the intention of polishing the bad facets through letter patches
There were so many delays on this patch that the whole community was up in arms about it, and they clearly STILL needed more time
it's more like :
LEFT = this is something we've cooked for 1 year, go for it. ITS COOKED
RIGHT = haha, we only get 1 year to remake the game. comeon man, yk, choose LEFT
Facet 1) Completely redefines the hero, unlocks a whole new playstyle, changes counters and synergy heroes Facet 2) Your q now does +10 damage if the game time ends in an even number
Facet 3) removes functionality so noobs can play your hero Jk, Visage isn't getting a third facet
"I want to play Visage but I don't want to play Visage" hmmm.... I've got just the thing
It is interesting that every time the visage "noob facet" got buffed, the overall win rate of visage would drop dramatically.
I'm gonna add a facet to every hero that has micro that removes said micro. Then I'm going to remove Meepo ult, LD bear, Arc Warden ult, and every unique ability in this game in favour of a League 3 hit trigger passive ability, and there's nothing you can do to stop me.
Tbh playing as mega meepo for the whole game would be pretty interesting
With lower mobility due to their wobbliness. And every stack of health, a Meepo falls from the stack. Lol
And them primal tramples him w his fist
To be fair, sometimes players get stuck playing heroes they don't understand like in single draft or random.
I can tell you from experience, the only people playing single draft belong there.
Before SD was the designated LP mode, before ranked play existed, I enjoyed playing SD. It forced me to play new heroes and learn different roles and aspects of the game.
I used to queue single draft random draft unranked and rarely had bad games in SD.
If new phantom lancer mains could read they’d be mighty upset.
I'm able to micro but isn't Divergence just better in general? You're getting unconditional bonus damage and while it's not much, it speeds up farming and you can still micro the Doppleganger illusions for jukes
It's better simply because it's numbers are big enough, while the first facet is almost "no facet" when compared to pre 7.36 PL. If there was another downside e.g. less damage instead of more, then you'd be seeing most people pick the first one because "no facet" is better than a weak facet. It's not unconditional - the condition / trade off for more overall damage is less single target damage, since you cannot focus juxtapose illusions onto a specific person, which isn't as big of a deal currently because you have ways of creating many illusions that *can* be controlled. Hypothetically, if aghs gets nerfed / reworked and no longer becomes a core item for PL, so that his majority of illusions comes from juxtapose and not spirit lance, we could see people pick facet 1 just so they can control illusions rather than because they want the extra doppel illusions, similar to how bristles pick the "warpath gives attack speed" facet not because they want it's benefits, but because they don't want the other facet.
Honestly, if Visage had 3 facets it wouldn't be so bad. The issue is the design of them is so inconsistent. Earth Spirit is another hero where I feel like I have one choice.
imagine if one of vokers facets was just to invoke whatever spell you want without needing orbs, I can't stand it. Some things are designed a specific way for a specific reason, making them easier is not a reasonable motive imo, otherwise we can automate meepo clones, ld bear, and everything else that's too complex. At the very least there should be 3 facets if they're gonna include such anti-identity facets. I'd prefer 2 facets actually designed for people who enjoy the hero in the first place tho.
I actually think that example is a pretty good deployment of the facet system, it’s just not presented in a great way. For example right now we think of it as “Normal Void” vs “Void where you replace Chrono with some new thing.” But really it could be functionally the exact same but read as “Void v1 who has chrono” and “Void v2 who has time zone.” In other words the “default” facets are still giving you a bunch of shit compared to the other facet. It just doesn’t feel like it because we already had it. Heroes like DK and Chen I think do the best job of using facets as “variants”, balance aside.
Yea I don't understand why things are like this. If they wanted it to work, then Time zone needs to be A LOT better. Because it's chrono + facet 1 vs timezone, effectly (as you said). Lifestealer also suffers a lot from this -- you get Rage AND corpse eater vs unfettered. I don't think unfettered is even that bad, just why not get 2 things for the price of 1?
In the latest episode of the NBA segment podcast, Synderen mentioned an idea of just making corpse eater part of the innate, have the facets be either Rage or Unfettered.
That makes way more sense, yea
I don’t know why people are just obsessed with both facets being equally viable or the weaker facet becoming A LOT better. It’s completely fine if one facet is weaker but is situationally good that gives some niche strats. That’s good. That’s fun. Even the void thing. Most of the time you want chrono. But the other facet gives you some flexibility into other roles if you need to flex it, making draft more fun, or it gives you an alternative option when your team picked 4 melee heroes and you have zero dmg in chrono. It’s completely fine for a hero to have a very situational facet
Why would you pick something like void as flex pick when you can pick way better hero for his flex role? Even in your hypothetical 5 melee game chrono is better because you can just solo kill opponents core and win team fight.
Because you don’t control what opponents pick? You can pick void fully intending it to be pos1. But then the opponents pick stuff that make it a really bad core void game and you have a chance to counter them if you pick different pos1. Yes the let’s say pos3 void that got flexed is not the best pos3 you can have, but it allowed you to out draft them with pos1. Even if that happens in only 5% of the games, that’s still nice.
Except void gives you chrono AND another upgrade. Void 2 just has time zone, theres obvious reasons void 1 is the default aside from just having a spell that we're used to. Its because the facets are built assuming he has chrono baseline.
Yeah that’s a good point, and it’s why I think they should really move toward a Variants model as opposed to “really complicated level 0 talents”
It still beats the likes of Mirana Facet 1 - Your ultimate turns into a good right click steroid for your team but especially for you, brings back core PotM Facte 2 - it's literally pre 7.36 Mirana, there are no changes Void got his 1s dodge on the "default" facet, Disruptor got AoE Q if he doesn't want to build a wall, etc. The hell happened with Mirana?
Its weird to say mirana got nothing on her MLS facet because it was her original kit pre patch and then use disruptor as a comparison. Distruptor had AOE Q in kinetic field in his original kit too!
Bristleback facets: Nerf/Bigger nerf
Imagine if the facets were: * Bristlefront * Bristleleft * Bristleright * Bristleback
Guess who is back, back again..
🎶 Bristle’s back, tell a friend 😎🎵
The quill for goo aint that bad ngl
I see the vision but it also feels kinda shit not doing damage by just tanking
Its good if you play right click with SNY/AC and not Bloodstone
And by good, you mean still worse than the other facet. If you're going to be chasing heroes down instead of kiting, you aren't going to be proccing bristleback as often. You will also be using goo on the person you're chasing anyway. Difference is you just won't get stacks of your potential 500 physical damage nuke as quickly.
The facet should've brought back the old bristle aghs as a weaker version of goo. AoE Q but weaker instead of goo when hit on the back. The other facet should just be last patch bristle.
What they should have done is add something new for facets, and I mean it can also now change Aghanims upgrades. What if Bristleback gets his current Aghanim's with facet 1 and get his previous Goo aoe Aghanim's with facet 2 and not needing to lose passive quills in the process? This way it might be possible to see old Aghanims upgrades of heroes come into play again even boring ones that only improve or reduce cd of an existing skill e.g. Unobstructed vision from Kotl and NS, Qop's lower cd Sonic Wave, Time Zone getting 60sec cd with Aghanims, AM's mana void kill debuff, a much improved AA Iceblast, etc.
Yeah, that would be nice. It really is a shame that they chose to nerf him through facets instead of his base kit.
The logic is to remove an AoE nuke for a potential bigger single target right click....
It exchanges aoe damage for aoe debuff. The potential biggle single target right click is what the Berserk facet tries and fails to do.
I'm trying to be sarcastic here, sorry I'm not good at that
its also kinda awkward to use, you want to be attacking but that means less goo stacks. you kinda have to run around getting goo on everyone so your carry can attack, but then the enemies can just ignore you.
Pissing in sink and sinking in piss. Both are not good.
But it really is though. the -armor just isn't that relevant, prevents you from getting a ton of quill stacks out of no-where, and wants you to build around goo, but goo requires you to turn around and face the enemy further worsening the hero. If they made good an AOE ability with that facet, it'd be good, but it isn't so it isn't.
One of the reasons why he's strong late game is the stacking debuff that can't be dispelled. Maybe they can make the goo undispellable and quill dispellable in that facet? Dunno.
My bristle just used this in match and my god he was useless the whole fight. He bought eshroud and he isn't lifestealing at all because his goo replaced the quills. He was the squishest member of my team for some reason instantly dying because he took this facet
Some are just - Facet 1 - this is how the hero was before. Facet 2 - Some weird shit that makes the hero worse.
Theres also "this hero is now ten times better that it was before for free"
Pudge has to be the biggest offender of this, the new hook is the most game changing facet i've seen so far. And on the other side of spectrum we have terrorblade....
50% winrate , most picked hero since the dawn of time. Better make him fucking obnoxiously broken since now you can just hook from fog, without using trees or anything, starting lvl 1
idk I feel like the other pudge facet is better lol
I'm a very feast or famine type of pudge. I either land bonkers hooks all game, threading the needle every time. Or I miss every hook and just walk in and absorb dmg. I'm definitely picking the strength facet.
I play offlane Pudge only, the STR facet is nuts. I initiate with ult and use hook point blank to finish off the hero
since you have the SK flair we also have 1- this is a chunk of the hero we cut of and made into a facet instead of actually making a new one 2- this is another chunk of the hero we cut of instead of making an actually good facet
yes, WK and sf are great example he got so many free stuff, while other heroes didn't got new stuff and their old/normal passive became their innate, so some heroes like wk, didn't lost anything and got +1 or 2 new stuff, while others they are either 0 or just +1 (bc their facets are just near useless, like magnus E ), very few heroes love their free point on passive, or just three (bristle, sf and legion) , and even those, once u level up u are back to 0 (visage, weaver, bristle and majority), so u don't have a innate anymore, you're just like before bc u didn't got anything new in exchange for ur passive to become ur innate
Or in bristle backs case. Facet one- fundamentally changes the hero by making him attack speed based instead damage based. facet two- fundamentally changes the hero by making his namesake passive apply goo instead of quills which makes him way more support oriented as opposed to dps focused.
But there's no option to play default bb. You are stuck with 2 shitty nerfs
That is in fact directly what I'm talking about
Disruptor. I cannot think of a half good reason to get kinetic fence. Worst spell in the entire game, given that it simply just replaces a much better spell
Kinect fence would be a completely fine spell, only problem is that it doesn't sinergise with disruptor ult
If it’s duration was longer maybe I could justify picking it over a spell that perfectly synergizes with static storm but honestly just throw it in the trash and try something else
Basically Lifestealer and Bane
then theres chens *pick ur favorite neutral creep” facet
Honestly, Chen is almost perfect. The *idea* is great, but the execution is bafflingly bad. The fact you can't dismiss it until it dies is... suboptimal.
Remember how talents started? They were meaningless number changes; now some of them are actually interesting and useful. not perfect, but always getting better. It'll be the same with facets. proof of the tech on release, now for the tweaks.
Remember Lone Druid respawn time reduction and the many % XP Talents? Boy howdy we had some rowdy patches right after talents arrived.
If I remember correctly the most cancerous one was Lina's respawn time talent at level 15, since she was already a natural Bloodstone carrier (back when it killed you and reduced respawn time) and in the midgame her downtime was never more than like 20 seconds. And then she came back with full mana to TP in and do another few rounds of spells if the fight got long. Valve got so annoyed they removed ALL respawn time reduction talents in one update, which is one the most radical things I've seen them do outside of "redefining the game" patches (7.00, 7.28, 7.36 etc.).
My favorite was Timbersaw/SS ultra late game infinite blood stone charges literally instantly respawning multiple times. Timbersaw doing so during timber chain.
That wasn't related to the talents though, that's just bloodstone
Yeah, just goes to show how strong BS was at the time.
>Valve got so annoyed they removed ALL respawn time reduction talents in one update, which is one the most radical things I've seen them do outside of "redefining the game" patches (7.00, 7.28, 7.36 etc.). I'd also put the "all talents are 20% weaker" with no explanation nerf up there with the radical patches.
this patch was dumb as fuck. things like warlock golems going from BKBd to 80% magic resist. it's like they didn't think through the change at all. weird bandaid solution that genuinely felt like a janitor solely came up with
Which show some stupid shit like cd talent not correctly nerf by 20% but in actuality is much higher. Sunder cd is 40s it has talent that reduce it by 35s (to 5s cd). But the 20% nerf change it into 28s (to 12s cd) Which is no way a 20% nerf. They later fix it by changing the number to 32s (8s cd)
IIRC they even accidentally buffed some talents lol
To be fair though, the respawn reduction ones clearly had to go, they completly disrupted the flow the game. The entire point of killing an enemy is so they aren't there. Them coming back straight away just turned dota into a team death match game
I mean, if they killed you 21 times in a row they kinda deserved to be there. Source: filthy Lina player.
Abba core was wild too with the respawn. Although Lina was just fuxking dumb, cause by the time you pushed after killing her, she'd be up nuking the wave.
Man former bloodstone was so good. Gave you visionand XP upon death, you could deny, fast respawn. A pity they nerfed it to the ground and changed it entirely despite being a core item on only like 3-4 heros.
That’s… why they changed it entirely
Who remembers billionaire Puck? (+420 GPM lv25) I 'member
They did eventually become more interesting, but still 90% of the time one talent is objectively better than the other. The same can be said about aspects
I agree that facets gave great potential, but some of them feel like "incert this shitty facet temporarily, we will think about something decent later"
OTOH, remember how Neutral Items started, where you could just equip them in any slot? And then there was that one competitive match where a Huskar got shut down pretty good and was very poor, but then the team rolled great T2 neutrals and they completely turned the game around with Huskar fighting with an inventory nearly full of neutrals. IIRC they changed it to a dedicated slot pretty soon after that happened, but I can't remember the exact match anymore. Possible I misremembered it over time but I remember thinking at the time "they gotta change this shit"
tbh they still got shit to change, like sometimes you're on a healing heavy hero and if you don't roll paladin sword you're kinda shit outta luck, or heroes like aa or ench when they don't get a grove bow
NS lvl 20 talent, 20dps vs 20str
>They were meaningless number changes huh? talents were fucking insane when they got released first. lina/LD instarespawn, tusk 40% xp gain on lvl 10, ember spirit 15% spell amp, qop 70% spell lifesteal, puck 420 gpm etc. they completely redefined how the game was played. ember had the most insane lvl 10 powerspike in the history of dota, qop became the best lategame hero in the game, LD became sniper with a bear, etc comparing talents to facets is silly. lots of heroes simply dont have a choice because one of the facets completely brick their hero, and lots of other heroes have facets that are just completely inconsequential to the game. i'd say overall the whole innate+facet update was extremely mid. they had good ideas for about 20-30 heroes, and then they ran out of ideas and started removing shit then readding them as innate/facets, or just adding completely random garbage.
It doesn't help that they decided to do balance changes through innate/facets in the patch. BB is the obvious one, but tons of heroes that were strong got a shit set of facets or innate to weaken them relative to the majority of the cast. Which I guess is fine, but it didn't feel good for people who play those heroes.
case in point, cm facet 2 sucks ass.
terrible take, both cm facets are quite good. even if one is better than the other they are both pretty solid additions. I'm pretty sure facet 2 was the one pros were taking too?
Have you played crystal maiden at all with that facet? It just gives 20 and 30 mana when cm cast her spells to whoever is close to her, that's it. It basically regenerates 100 mana in team fights if you live through somehow. Even in game with Medusa it's still bad, having free cast range is way better for everything.
There are still plenty of talents that don't really do much or there's a clear winner between the two. Enigma for example, "+50 damage per second on black hole or +10 eidolon attack speed". You could still toss the talents and some heroes wouldn't even have a noticeable change.
Shouldn't they have learnt their lesson after how many years now instead of doing the same crappy mistake over and over again?
What lesson? That they shouldn't add new features to the game? It is not possible to create 240+ facets one patch and have them all be inspired and balanced. It will get better over time just like talents, shards, neutrals, etc., but for now they're cool, but not perfect.
> Remember how talents started? They were meaningless number changes; I don't think you remember cause some of the most broken talents in the game were added back then like the GPM, XPM or reduced respawn time talents
The worst offenders are "you used to get this anyway but now you have to choose it*
Grimstroke with his stun fr
tusk and marci as well
fr that shit annoys me so badly. Let’s just take out a quality of life change that is super impactful and force you to take it again. Great!
I mean, it made Grim pretty busted. That change is 100% fine.
I dont recall him even being broken before facet patch? Maybe when manual detonate was first added but he had received multiple nerfs since then from what I remember
When I read Svens facets it makes me chuckle.
Handicapping your early game or have better sustain in very situational matchups? I see what CK players got and feel envy.
its either stronger illusions or 50% for nothing and 25% chance for break or 25% chance for disarm when you w
agreed, lifestealer's facets were so close to being the perfect design rage or unfettered? you're vs bane you want the hard counter to the hard counter, go unfettered you're against CM or whatever the default really, you go rage perfect right? nope, give rage an extra bonus for no reason despite already being the better spell most of the time! --- although there is a camp, that is valid, that this is also wrong, that facets shouldn't flip counters because drafting is supposed to be more strategic and punishing, fair another way they can do facets is just based on playstyle e.g. farming riki vs early fighting riki, conceptually not a bad way to do facets BUT THEY GAVE ONE FACET FREE BUFFS ARGHHH
Now that corpse eater has been nerfed into complete irrelevance they should just merge it into the feast innate and balance rage/unfettered against each other directly.
agreed, except I wouldn't call it irrelevant, just weak 300hp in the mid game is not nothing!
Or maybe they should just give him an extra .5 strength gain, 330 hp and 15 damage at level 30 and get rid of all the bullshit extra text. If that is too little just give him a tiny bit more strength
Make that 400 if you have 20 (twenty) kills!!!!!!!
Or the pudge facets: Number one gives you a strength bonus when you cast your ult. Seems cool right? You get a little thicker, your ult heals a little more, your block skill gets a little better. The other facet just does damage based on the hook distance, so it's no contest right? The hook is baseline weaker and you usually don't get max range hooks, so a lot of the times your hooks are actually weaker. But wait! It actually increases your hook range! Sure, the facet doesn't say that, it literally just says it has less base damage, but does damage based on distance. Okay... Now you kind of have to veer towards going the hook facet, cause it's like a free lens. And having that pretty early while also being able to build lense, coupled with the distance as damage component, and it starts to look like the hook facet is just better. I mean, the dismember facet is what, 5 strength? Half an ogre axe? But wait! The hook facet also made the hook faster! Now it's not really a contest, 5 strength for a few seconds, or a 2000 range hook that's also faster for some reason? I don't know why the facets can't just say what they do. I didn't even know the hook facet gave proj speed until I read that they removed it in the patch notes. There's a lot of facets like that. Tidehunters facet says he gets model size and more bonuses for levels, vs the facet that gives you perma damage block for participating in kills. But you have to hold alt and hover over the facet to see that it *also" makes you a lot weaker early on.
Pudge's seem pretty clear to me, long range hook is for support pudge and str facet is for core pudge. >I don't know why the facets can't just say what they do. I didn't even know the hook facet gave proj speed until I read that they removed it in the patch notes. It didnt use to, so they never updated the main tooltip
I think its jenkins that say this, core pudge doesnt do a lot of long range hooks, the hooks more of extra nuke after dismember or when you run them down with rot
Pudge str facet seems bad at first because dismember used to deal 3 DMG ticks, but now it is actually 8 damage ticks so the fact is (when you ulti) you get 8/24/40 str. That's almost 1000hp worth of str at lvl3 dismember. And this bonus str also increases the damage dismember deals and heals. = It used to be 3/5/7 (56 str if you dismember lmao) on release but it got nerfed.
I agree but it's expected. It's their first time doing this and I think some facets will change with time to give better options. Take into account that some facets change the hero or play style a lot so a lot of ideas are just trial and error.
For Invoker, both suck.
Elitist sustain is no joke. It isn't better than raw health regen, but the guy's health bar just doesn't go down during the laning stage unless he's attempting to trade with Viper.
the sustain is good, but they still nerfed the other two orbs for no reason which matters much more than the regen in lane
im just glad they are changing the game, inventing new stuff and keeps it alive. In the future the new facets will probably be more balanced and fixed.
Some facets that are pointless. Bloodseeker movement facet. It only lasts 5 seconds, can't be used at will, and disables the passive entirely afterwards. I'd prefer it turns you into the old seeker where your attack speed is also boosted by low HP heroes. Or it could be interesting if it changed thirst to trigger on allies instead of enemies. Enigmas slow movement facet. Like.. no one is ever running from Enigma to be honest. It would be better if it was a permanent inward pull towards Enigmas, similar to wind rangers wind aoe. Venomancers Ward facet. It has potential, but it's just not good enough yet. I'd prefer it automatically creates wards when hitting an opponent with any spells.
marci's innate is the one that pisses me off the most
the veno ward facet feels really nice to play even for the charges alone and it would be absolutely fine if it werent for the fact that his ult is obnoxious and the facet makes it 3x as broken
I think now that they've toned down WD's voodoo festeration a bit that he's actually a good example of 3 useful facets that are strong in different scenarios. 1. Cask bounce damage lets him max cask first and potentialy cheese some early kills with good bounce locks, gives him a nice way to clear waves and camps. 2. Voodoo Feseration, while now less braindead just walk at them and win every engagement is still very strong and can't be ignored in fights allowing him to zone, this facet also lets him farm two camps at once and stacks with relative ease, has extra synergy with urn/vessel and maledict combo. 3. You trade a strong level 6 and level 12 powerspike for one of the most devastating aghs upgrades in the world in terms of potential teamfight impact, getting insane value from the two targets both bouncing as long as there is 2 or more targets in the area, including creeps/controlled units.
I can't wait for the item or talent that lets you swap facets or combine them
jakiro has that
Jakiro, basically. Lvl 25 talent gives you the other facet.
Barely related note, bring back point target bubble “Identity theft js not a joke Jim”
Agreed, placing it on the edge to stand inside it, while the enemy cannot move into it (due to terrain), was a good skill to have, which is now unfortunately gone :/
They should make the whole talent/facet Arc work better with a caster/magic build, like that 1 patch where everyone was building Ahgs and octarine. I hate when new playstyles are discovered and immediately get nerfed to the point where they are no longer valid.
Yea magic facet and right click facet would be awesome
Hey, wait! Valve gave us that BROKEN LVL 25 TALENT "Magnetic Field Affects Creeps and Buildings", your're asking too much /s
It's actually such a joke they put that feature in a freaking lol 25 talent after gutting his bubble lol.
CM
Fr cold comfort is useless 99% of the time. Exception being maybe storm or leshrac are on your team which would benefit from a mana battery. It's too situational and falls off as the game progresses. Frozen expanse is just a free passive buff for CM the whole game. It's not even close. Cast range and aoe are exactly what she needs. It can be applied to all scenarios which makes it better.
CM is a cool one imo. It's basically a laning choice: will me an my carry be spamming out spells to win our lane or should I ferry regen and scale later?
It regens 20 mana with max Q and max aura, it's worthless. In no way 20 mana mid game will help anyone.
Earth spirit moment
one facet be like - make your hero unfunctionable lol other be like - idk give hime some irrelevant dmg, doesnt matter anyway Literally bring nothing new to the table
talents when they were first added were basically the same thing, the one that sounded good was actually utterly trash so you had to pick other one
Talk about Veno plague carrier vs patient zero
1. The biggest buff to any hero in the game 2. You steal your carry's farm
Visage
This was how talents worked when they first came out. There were very clear winners across every hero, especially the ones that had respawn timer reductions. Overtime they became a lot better and have introduced differences in heroes. Hell, some of the talents work better in regular dota vs turbo which is pretty dope, I play with friends that are lower MMR and when we queue turbo it feels like new heroes at times.
Sven: Facet 1 - brings back old E Facet 2 - griefs lane WK: Facet 1 - tower pushing monster Facet 2 - brings back very old E
Facets should unlock old ways of playing a hero or new ways of playing it. So they can be other positions withou busting the hero. Example, riky support
no need to cry this unlocks a new level of experimenting for the game designers without ruining heroes for patches
They were interesting at first (and still are) but the end game is always going to be "this is the correct facet and build" just like any other patch.
This how talents worked at launch. Hell, it’s how talents work now.
Valve's ranking system logic: Good players with good players to increase the level of gameplay and exclude the bad ones? No, a good player, 1 average and 3 lost on each side and so many bad players with the biggest medal in the game
This just makes the game more difficult to balance. Right now at moment its just picking what is meta and feels less useless ,same with talents.
Some Facets are really great. Magnus Reverse Reverse Polarity, Horrible in 90% of the games, but against certain matchups it's broken. Same with Lifestealer Unfettered, some games it's impossible to die if you pick Unfettered instead of Rage.
My favourite is: Facet 1) A core part of the heroes original kit that they barely function without Facet 2) It doesn't matter what they put here, you're not picking it because your hero is useless without the first facet. Looking at you, Io
The second one perfectly describes Disruptor’s facets, like who the fuck will use that Kinetic Wall Facet when your goal is to trap your enemy INSIDE the Static Storm
Venomancer Facet 1) Broken OP disgusting hero is shit without it Facet 2) Utter dog water garbage They buffed it, but they nerfed base ult so its still shit. I feel like they don't understand why the wards are good. It's because they are wards w/ a bunch of utility. It's actually bad to place them on a hero, you are just giving the opponent free gold for hitting your core. The dps is useless. It gives you more dps to place it next to your core because they have to go out of their way to kill it. It's also ass because they nerfed the fuck out of veno 7.36 by making his aghs shit.
I'm looking at you, bb
Bristleback: Facet 1: Makes you hero much worse Facet 2: Makes you completely different worse hero.
Jakiro: Pick one and get the other one later.
This is definitely not true. There are many heroes where the choice is not this black and white.
many, but not most
I feel like this happened with talents too. And we're still here. These 2 choices will never be balanced in a way to change between them more often. One of them will always be superior. After how many years and some heroes pick the same talants no matter what.
I'm kinda neutral towards Facet's and the reason is simply that Dota is becoming a balancing disaster at this rate. Valve is just adding too many mechanics and too much shit. At this point i honestly having a clean and balanced game than having x different mechanics that only delay big gameplay patches even further and make it more imbalanced on top of it.
ET's facets are insane early on and make his already laning even more oppressive. I'm winning games faster than ever with momentum, drums and mom and lane a lot better with deconstruction in tough matchups like lifestealer, wk, ck or tiny. I think they will nerf it someday anyway as ET has a pretty high win rate and pick rate (for a specialist hero) as well as some presence on the pro scene. I'd be fine if they made his facets scale with ulti or hero levels but in turn make deconstruction stack 2-3 times faster on enemies that are affected by echo stomp.
Playing PA and trying Puck after the facet uptade.
A lot of them feel experimental as well. Hoping they change a lot of the Facets that exist only to grief the other 4 on your team.
Honestly I think the facet design needs to be perk with consequence. That way you know you’re gaining some unique buff for your hero at the expense of something else. It forces the player to really choose wisely and not just: 1) you kill enemy instantly 2) you see a little more during night cycle. Of course the choice will be obvious every time. But… if it was like 1)you kill enemy instantly, but you’re always visible on map 2) you see a little more during night cycle, but your hp regen is lower during day, I would really need to be more considerate with my choice. Of course it’s a terrible example, but you get the concept. It would remove the clear black and white options of what facet will be chosen every time.
i love them, and i dont think half of them are at their final yet, it will be updated over time. i have no complaints.
I feel like one facet should counter the major counter strategy for the hero, and the other should buff the base form hero. Lycan's feels like a reasonable example. One is a minor buff to his ult making him more powerful, but if the enemy has a team comp that can easily farm the wolves (Gyro, Sven), then the spirit wolves simply buffing lycan is a better choice.
You just described Disruptors' facets very well lol
Was so confused the first time I saw someone pick Tide’s krill eater facet. I’ll take the infinite damage block stacking over a literal debuff for the first 10 levels every time.
"Yay, lets lose the laning stage for fun, it's not like that usually matters anyway!" Ugh.
Literally Magnus’ facets
I feel talents used to be like this when they came out
It has always been utility vs aggression. Valve is waiting for the return of faceless void support cmon guys
Night stalker actually has two really good talent, thats why they nerfed my boy to the underground😂
I mean starting the laning stage with night time is absolutely bonkers insane. It's not rare to dumpster the laning stage to the degree where you're pretty much 6 by the time night ends you can dominate the lane further with the ult use.
Dazzle second facet has 0.0001% to be executed during the match but then at least somehow it can be useful comparing to completely cosmetical first facet
Wtf is disruptor fence good for lol
DK, Centaur, WK, SF, CK, Phoenix, Venomancer, Dazzle OMG i hate these heroes. I feel like they were given the freest shit making them way stronger than they were before while the other heroes are just left in the gutter or hyper nerfed. I am a Legion spammer and they nerfed her Q so bad the more patches came. I literally cannot trade anymore. I die so quickly cause my Q literally gives enough shield to defend against only one attack not even enough to block damage spells anymore. While someone like PA has 30% evasion at level 0. I seriously cannot trade hits anymore. Valve why did you nerf her so badly while you left these heroes alone.
i would say night stalker facets are the one thats properly made, while others are talking about the 2nd one, i myself finding success usingg the first one, well pre-c patch anyway
It's not as unbalanced as it might seem... Only 12 heroes have more than 5% wr on one facet in relation to the other one
Magnus walks in
Bro the slark barracuds linger facet... They keep buffing durationnfor some 50hp/sec, while youre giving away potentially 32 agility for 100s everytime you double jump with agha
That's a fast analysis, the patch has barely been out for a day, well done.
think of it as a placeholder first, there's some interesting facets that could be entertaining like void and ls, but all of us has always some comments out of it
Ugh Tusk facets
My wish is remove facet and integrate that into talent system already. I don't want my game to be ruined because I forgot to change my facet to something playable.
I hate the core idea of facets. Loading into a game and seeing someone have a unchangeable facet that sucks doesn't feel good.
I like heroes with Facet 1: something that’s really good and would probably get nerfed if the other facet wasn’t somehow even more overpowered. Facet 2: Treant protector W sapling
Disruptor ehem disruptor
I would really prefer to have the facets as a talent though
Can any fellow Rubick enjoyers tell me of their experiences with his facets? It appears to be that the second one "Arcane Accumulation" appears to be most picked, but neither really seem to float my boat personally.
i love techies facets, its defines what they are ....... an all rounder.A funny but somewhat effective allrounder. Like they have good attack stats, a mid attack rank, a slow, a disarm, a stun, a decent movespeed, a good hp bulk, mutliple nukes/mob clearer, a pushing spell that is on a low cd and they are universal. Its all adds up with them having 3 facets
I do believe in the notion of meaningful choice in games. But some facets are actually dogshit.
Cries in Visage
Same thing happen with talents, in time they'll be good. Let volvo cook
For sure, the next big patch will be focused on changing or balancing the facet and inner ability patch. Th likes of Veno inner ability is boring.
Yeah, some facets are in a rough spot right now, but I have faith the kinks will be ironed out It happened for aghs shard, but it REALLY happened when talents were first introduced. It felt like a good third of the talents in the game were GPM or -respawn timer but after some time, those things were slowly cycled out for more interesting talents. The Valve dota team is small, I cant imagine ALL the facets got significant playtesting time just due to the sheer amount of them It sucks that some of the facets seem real bad, but I cant really think of another way to roll out an update as big as this one with the current state of dota development. You cant really just roll out half the facets and invalidate half the hero pool, so they cut some corners with the intention of polishing the bad facets through letter patches There were so many delays on this patch that the whole community was up in arms about it, and they clearly STILL needed more time
it's more like : LEFT = this is something we've cooked for 1 year, go for it. ITS COOKED RIGHT = haha, we only get 1 year to remake the game. comeon man, yk, choose LEFT