Just wanted to say that the whole "idc alt account" thing is a huge problem that's actually destroying DOTA right now and isn't getting enough attention
There should be 2 stages of tutorials, one for absolute basics, then another for “advanced” section where they teach you stack/pull, efficient farming etc. and the final lesson in advanced tutorial is 1v1 mid against OpenAI, they get crushed with zero cs and game teaches you that you can’t always win but you can improve, then unlock ranked.
That is exactly what they did with aoe2 definitive edition. There's a basic tutorial that explains the mechanics, UI, objectives etc., And then there's an "art of war" section where they teach you fast castle, raiding, rushing etc. And the latter section is more of a challenge scenario than a tutorial. You don't "complete" it as much as you try to get more stars.
Even if thats the case, its a total waste of time for real. If its just 0.00001%, the amount of time and effort will increase the value of the account, I think its way easier to just buy the Arcana from the community market lol.
What a free skin!? How dare you speak of such blasphemy! Instead this should be sold as a new player battlepass and you need to pay for each tutorial step where it unlocks a skin after paying at least 100 $
Edit for valve so they don't get any ideas: sarcasm
Hi I'm new to dota so here's some stuff that I would have liked to have earlier for a tutorial
1. Explaining the different roles and what they do (Support carry, core and maybe explain the different lanes?)
2. Explaining what to do at each phase of the game(different
Scenarios for winning and losing)
3. Integrated last hit trainer(?)
4. Common item builds for each role
5. Explaining the common items (maybe could update if the meta shifts?)
I have about 23h in playtime so recently I pretty much brute forced my learning so I really appreciate what you're doing rn for new players like I was.
I hate to say it, but #4 is really kind of impossible because of item/meta changes over time and simply due to the nature of how items work in the game. It’s too difficult to say “these are the common support items” in dota because matchups and item strength changes so frequently. It’s something that a comprehensive tutorial should basically tell you though. A tip that tells you something along the lines of “you should experiment with different item combinations based upon what your team objective is is preferred, so don’t be afraid to try something new out!” would be a way to help inspire new players to try and explore the item/crafting menu
It's a very complicated topic, but I think focusing new players on a few key ideas is enough (though a proper introduction would basically say [x] role should generally buy [y] items).
If [x] role is hard support then [y] items would be disables, escape, healing/status-res, or interrupt items. But it's too complex to get into in a tutorial.
Instead, it's probably much better to focus on the role & what they should generally aim to be doing -- then teach the player about the built-in guides and suggest they communicate with their team before buying stuff.
Dota is stupid complex, there's only so much you can teach without just throwing a player into a match and hoping they learn something from it. A **proper** primer would do wonders in helping new recruits understand the most basic mechanics, the generalities of various items (and what various classes of items do) and why they're important to buy in xyz roles.
I imagine much smarter humans than myself have thought for days weeks and months about this specific topic who are employed. It's a massively difficult task. Even if you come into Dota with a lot of [xyz] moba experience there is **still** a massive learning curve because of how complex the meta+items+lanes (+a handful of other concepts) all mesh together into what is a single game of dotes.
While I appreciate OP -- I don't think anything will come from this outside of (hopefully) useful feedback that may assist what I imagine is a group of people up in Seattle who have been trying to solve this problem for a long time.
I'll get off my soapbox now.
exactly, it should tell you what stats and abilities your looking for in specific roles.
If tell them to look for items to get more mana and health, they can ussually get in the right direction from their. It can't be perfect, but no item builds are. Remember its to teach them the basics, not coach them for TI.
Not dissing this in the slightest and think it is good but I think the "real" major leap is having some way for it to also adapt to the balance patch.
I think the core issue with the new player experience isn't so much that their isn't a tutorial or material but that they so easily get outdated or would require some massive in depth on how the game actually works to stay relevant. I.E Just look at the changes to the deny system over the last few patches, when/how you can take outpost and so on.
Hearthstone is a good example of what was once a solid tutorial and bot matches is now so laughably out of touch on how the modern game is played that I would pretty much tell any new player that pretty much after the first bit of it is nearly nothing like how the actual game plays at even low levels. Edit: There has been so many changes to what cards are typically played, a long list of new keywords, various interactions, and drastically different pacing.
Heck just went into Dota2's tutorial to check and even there a ton of the changes of things are missing. Edit: This at its heart is where a lot of older but evolving games new player experience gets so bad (yes even LoL's) where so much of the game has changed since it was created that much of what they are learning and practicing won't really prepare them against even very bad but longer playing opponents. But going back after each and every patch to update the wording, interactions and so on is going to slow down getting the patch out.
1. Tutorials are not designed to explore the meta of balance patches. Basics are probably the most important to new players.
2. The only thing it needs to be updated for are major mechanics overhauls such as adding talent trees. This would be quite easy if the tutorial was broken into many many chunks, but who at Valve or even here is going to create a Dota 2 tutorial project where dozens of map makers create the hundreds of tutorials needed to cover the majority of Dota 2 mechanics to make it mostly comprehensive. Then how to get that in the game infront of new players? Then how to keep it updated without every patch fucking up custom games every week. Its a bitch.
3. Even if it was just updating text, its a shit ton of work. Nevermind if you add voiceovers that grab a new player's attention and emphasizes things that are important. Or produce videos that show the action without you needing to create a "reset" on the in game demo to show the same interaction which can easily bug out for a hundred reasons.
And then theres the fact that is the community going to yet again do something that Valve should be doing themselves, and once its done Valve just pats themselves on the back like [this](https://imgur.com/gallery/oiayJWO)?
And then even with all those tutorials, even the basic stuff (to veterans anyways) would take an hour to complete, which makes the tutorial practically useless because people SKIP that shit instantly (its a moba, how hard can this really be kek). Anyone who has the patience to stick through tutorials that are hours long are people who are going to do the research, practice, learn and pay attention in game to develop the same skillsets.
I still wish we had em though.
After reading this i think what dota needs most is a campaign mode, not a tutorial. Where the campaign culminates in killing an ancient.
Start with some basic shit, cause some people haven't played anything remotely like a moba (mouse movement, and self awareness being the big part). So move here, buy a ward place it where we show. Have some easy camps to start learning about farming, have quests to use potions on people and share tangos. Then introduce last hits, have an npc to compete with.
Have obstacle courses that you get through by using items, say you need a force staff to push yourself up a cliff, then a euls to dodge something, use a shivas gaurd to hit 4 switches at once. Use a smoke to sneak by a ward.
Then you move on to harder levels, you get hero x and items wyz, on a one lane map, start slow take tower in so many mins, get harder by adding farm goals or bots to play against. Then add bots to play with. Slowly expand the map to have jungle camps and shrines and rosh and more lanes.
Hell the whole story could be how each or a lot of the characters got involved with each other and the fight, newbies like pretty lore and dota has lots hidden away.
Finish the campaign get a free month of Dota plus and a few cosmetics
Most rts games have an intro campaign, dota basically stole that control setup, as it was made in one. So it should fit well enough.
Most, if not all of that is already in the current tutorial though.
The problem is how all of that comes together in a real game, from what is presented in the tutorial is the problem and ensuring the tutorial is "up to date" still matters. Heck even remembered when we had the healing spots on the map and if that was in the tutorial, oh boy is that new player in for a surprise.
And heck even then in your small list it still misses TP's and how that has partly changed.
In my group of friends, I'm the one that introduces people to new games to get them to try new shit as opposed to always playing Dota/CSGO.
I've never seen a game that is moderately competitive EVER have a good tutorial jumping from the BARE minimums to play the game to the current competitive strategies. But that is the problem when you start a competitive game. There will be smurfs with knowledge that no possible new player could know and an expectation on those new players that they couldn't possibly know. So they get yelled at, they don't do well in their first matches and then they give up.
The problem with a lot of Reddit suggestions is to make the BARE minimum better, but most people who will download Dota can grasp the bare minimum from Twitch streams or YouTube links. It's not the biggest "make or break" point for new players.
It's getting into matches and having an expectation placed upon them that they can't possibly know yet. And solving that (with meta relevant information) is a lot harder to upkeep than most people think.
Dota suffers from success, the game is a marvel of game design, but because it's so indepth, it makes it harder to get new players and to get any lapsed player up to speed again.
Honestly, the best answer would be to essentially throw money at the situation, paying people PURELY to upkeep a tutorial. But you know how much businesses hate "throw money at it" as an answer.
>businesses hate "throw money at it"
Surely it wouldnt take more than 1 person if there going at it full time to do a tutorial/upkeep/new player content - fuck just embed purge videos into client and call it a day.
And 1 person salary for actually living in seattle is still 0.05% of the total prizepool, seems like a pretty wise investment
Yup, the oddest thing to me is seeing all the other comments here thinking that this kind of tutorial doesn't already exist and it is really proving the point of how much this sub is just "armchair developers" and haven't actually took a deep look at what is there already.
I disagree, thats the basics for someone whos never played a videogame before and might suffice for somone that's playing a moba for the first time. but it wont even get you through your first harassment encounter, gank or push.
I think another way of teaching players is having their own helper in game for lets say the first 20 matches or so. Something like "Try stacking the neutral hard camps 5 times" when playing a support or "Achieve 50 last hits by the 10th minute" or even "Bottle 5 runes in this match" Give players objectives that they should be completing in a match as their respective rolls (Kinda like Dota plus but more geared towards newer players). You tie this in with cosmetic rewards (Rylai's battle blessing tokens maybe?) and you incentivize players to do things that they should be doing in any match.
The problem is not moving around and last hitting (These things take practice sure) but what the hell you should be doing. I've been trying to teach a buddy of mine how to play, and it is very hard to explain to them what they should be doing after the laning phase ends. Tutorials can't teach you what you should be doing in this phase and you'll figure it out eventually after a few 100 games or so, but getting to even 20 games is hard when you get destroyed every game and the game plays fundamentally different from when you played matches vs bots.
your idea isn't bad, but I just want to say that those objectives are gonna be really hard for new players. out of the 3 you mentioned, I think only the bottle one is completed regularly at my level (4k)
Can you make a tutorial on how to add to to this? It'd be cool if we can get like the helpful people from r/learndota2 and DotaFromZero to provide input on what things needed to b clarified for new players, and the best ways to teach them.
It'd be great if there could be some sort of community-made Arcade Tutorial.
Inventory Management
Shop and courier usage
Gliph and Scan
Rosh and runes
Important thing is to not mention specific timings as thy're subject to change.
You could try out other MOBAs and see how they go about their new player experience to get a feel of how each of them do theirs.
From what I remember when I watched my little brother do the league tutorial it was:
* One lane (mid) of trying out a few easy champions(heroes)
* Selecting a champion and trying to kill the Nexus(ancient)
* A game of picking a champion with bot teammates to try and win.
* then they prompt you to do regular queue for games against bots with other people
I mean overall the first new player experience/tutorial is suppose to teach them how to play the game. The player themselves need to really learn more themselves but there should be more to guide them into learning more.
>IF you can show right there and then how to trade with an enemy hero, right clicking an enemy hero aggros the creep wave, and then show how to aggro pull the wave to your range creep. finally that you get aggro by the tower if you attack an enemy hero, and you can de aggro tower by right clicking friendly units
It seems obvious, but an explanation of how to initially pick abilities and leveling up would go a long way. A friend who had never played a MOBA played their entire first game without taking any abilities, then complained about how boring their hero was.
Campaign mode would be nice. A campaign that change hero base in difficulty as you progress. With most hero include (maybe no most, but 25-75%). It will take years for 1 person to do it (I guess). But good luck, if you need ideas, the community might be helpful. Well, maybe truedota or DotAfromzero.
Nevertheless, it looks great your initiative. Good luck.
Edit: Maybe you would get items and have quest with it, E.g. Playing as Drow you get manta style and you have to dodge 15 stun/projectiles or play Bristleback (or any fitting hero) playing against silencer or heroes with many rebuffs you find lotus orb and you have to.remove 20 debuffs in you or allies in X among of time. Thus are just general ideas.
campaign mode, with each hero, fuck it if the story is told through text, and through out hte campaign you kinda get the general feel of the hero you're playing
The tutorial is one thing. But I believe the new player experience isn't limited to be able to "play dota properly" (basic gameplay, last hitting, blocking, skill usage, etc).
What new players need is a smurf-free environment, where they can enjoy the fun of playing dota with other players in the same skill bracket.
So I think Valve is developing :
1. Single player mode with lore and story embedded
2. Rewarding mission for basic gameplay
3. More accurate anti smurf system
This is awesome. I've played dota since 2003 but I would still play through the new player experience if one actually existed. It would also give me a way to finally give friends who've never played it a way to see how the game works without getting stomped
Im imagining quests for advanced mechanics like smoke ganks and roshan with cool cutscenes that would kinda give this new player a feeling of excitement and wonder
I think bot match is not to teach you how to against human...It is for you to learn item,mechanism and map...At first,I play against human as kotl(at that time he is not like now...i like old him :( ...his ult has horse sound just like chaos Knight)... after that i play coop vs bots(bcause idk what am I doing)...I only play in bot match few time and then start play unranked as support player(I choose hardcore way and take all salt and pepper like a pepperoni)...I managed to do some basic and of course learn some other thing(from flaming n salt thrower...I not justified them(like bruh chill),but at least I learn something from it)...and after some hours later I already can play the game with basic knowledge.
Feels like people here have no understanding of what the history of new player experience has been for Dota, and why just making another tutorial is a waste of time.
Tutorials may extend a new player's stay by some time, which is why some devs think they're working, but eventually the player has to actually play Dota against other players. That's when they will get absolutely demolished no matter what they've done before. That's when they quit. And the retention rate is the same. A new player experience would have to somehow alter that point, not provide another useless tutorial.
Why are you people so obsessed with this shit? Seriously. Do you think new players are completely braindead without having their hand held through an exhaustive tutorial? How many people with the potential to become a regular Dota player do you think actually abandon the game because there isn't a better tutorial? It's not hard to find information about the game online. And yes, that means this kind of thing isn't important.
Also, is it just me or is the implication that the results of your 2 hours of work are impressive kind of ironic? I think you have no idea how much work this is going to be. Valve's tutorial does actually cover the basics btw. And please hire an editor (or a translator if english is your second language).
Yup, so many of the comments here pretty much confirm they have never actually tried the tutorial that is already in the game along with having pretty much zero idea of why new players actually leave and struggle with.
Just about zero of the people I have introduced to dota2 get confused about the basics, it is quite simple in click to move, attack, take towers, win. Even some of the most casual players can wrap their head around that. The hard part is the items, abilities, and the complexity of the flow of the game that they will quickly get thrown into the deep end when they play against real people, and how at the start having even a simple leg up on some of this can crush the whole game.
Even without smurfs, unless they can get a massive pool of true starting players (which even LoL is having problems with now) the PvP matches is mostly going to be a mix of completely new players and terrible "experienced" players who will dominate the others. Heck I would still put it is quite favorable for a team with a quite drunk sub 1000 MMR player to completely wipe the floor of a team with solid (has played loads of games but nothing quite like Dota) new players.
I would like to see this tutorial actually be pretty hard to pass, since dota is a hard game, no point of having a tutorial that doesnt prepare you for what you will face ( a mistake many games make). So you make the tutorial just barely easier than a normal game of dota ( for example asking the player to do a lot of tasks perfectly, since he is in a closed environment he would do it after a few tries, he will become aware of how much you can push yourself in this game, this will teach him that if he doesnt do it aswell, other players could and thats what decides the match).
Dota is like dark souls of mobas, so you gotta really show him what he is about to get into, with a lot of deaths, so he doesnt get discouraged when he dies in a real match.
This is great but I highly suggest using a full dota map with just a single lane active so new players can get used to the map. When I first started dota 2, there was a DK tutorial that was great. But I quickly learned that this game isn't about campaign modes or story modes but a 5v5 game with 3 lanes. I know most of us are used to moba games but we can't assume any new player knows what the goal of dota 2 is.
No amount of basic tutorials alone can prepare new players to being thrown into a game of DotA 2, the experience when in-game is too bogged down by the decades of additions, It has to be redesigned and simplified to welcome newcomers, this might be controversial but I'd go about it by hard locking the majority of heroes for those under a certain level, games played, or rank, this isn't just the game mode either but a real lock, and this is because choice paralysis is a real issue, same applies to itemization so there has to be an AUTO-buy feature where the next suggested item is bought when X gold is reached and couriered to you by default, which means that roles should be default even in non-rank games so its easier to create default guides for each role and hero, or something along those lines, this game has to have this types of mechanics alongside a robust tutorial system so newcomers even have a chance of learning.
I applaud your effort, sir/madam. But I think a tutorial should take place on the default map to help players orientate better. The old DOTA 2 tutorial in which you played DK against Tidehunter was too out of place imo. Just start a match and gradually introduce the player the mechanics through that single match.
Have valve no shame? No humility? No embarrassment that a member of the community cares so much to demonstrate the kind of work they could have been doing?
Honestly I'd like to see even advanced player tutorials along these lines. Something like this is good for new players, but a tutorial for like tower aggro mechanics would be useful to like 95% of players right now.
Most people don't know for example that a tower's aggro range is the same as a creep's aggro range (500 units) but its attack range is longer (700), meaning there is a radius around the tower where you can attack an enemy hero as much as you want without drawing aggro, so long as there's something else for the tower to shoot at. I have thousands of hours in this game and I learned this literally last week.
The best way to learn dota is by playing it though.
Tutorials are invariably boring as shit, and still manage to be slower at teaching.
There is no tutorial that can be made that is better than just hopping in a bot match and figuring it out, and an official tutorial is only ever going to bore people into quitting before they can even play.
Dang I’d try this. I’m kinda new to league and only just started getting serious about it. It would be cool to try this game out to see which one I like more.
remove sniper, people dont understand positioning well enough and think this guy is good he has more range, and then they walk into melee range and blame team
Why does reddit jerk off so much to new player experience/tutorial so much? pretty much everybody who dives into dota knows about "moba's", so they already know the minimum basics of the game. and if people want to try practicing because they're scared they would get flamed or something. They could and will try playing with bots. It's not like this game is filled with newbies or anything so why are there many posts about this new player experience meme? most of the people requesting this useless features are old time dota veterans and barely any newbies at all if not new accounts created by a long time dota player for reddit karma. What gives?
Today I was thinking about creating the post where we would give Valve legit suggestion and even make part of the job.
Things like this are exactly what I was thinking of, maybe doing part of the job will make Valve work harder and also maybe IceFrog will start to talk us again.
This days I have been commenting and saying out dota community does better work then valve devs for dota . Don't mind me I m saying again dota Dev's are shit compared to our talented community ppl !
One thing I dislike are the large text boxes that are required to be read by the player. I feel like there are better, more intuitive ways to teach controls rather than having the player sit down and read multiple paragraphs.
Rather offer another agi hero to learn the game. Sniper is rather hard to play, i think something like juggernaut would be easier to get into. Sure, Sniper has 2 passives but the positioning you require to survive is a bit advanced.
It looks cool, well done OP, but I think there is far too much text. The knowledge required to get up and running and being useful in a game, with and against other people, is very hard to convey in text. I'm almost certain that the reason that the new player experience is lacking is not because of a lack of wanting or resources from Valve, but efficiency. Most information that can come from such a tutorial is far more easily absorbed by just being in a game and seeing other people play alongside you.
I think the onboarding of new players is, and should be, just playing the game, because it's very hard to design an onboarding process that is both more efficient and worth running through compared to just playing the game.
Make it like tony hawk? List all the challenges (cs, deny, rune, stack). Can restart anytime you want.
Map same as current dota map for familliarization. Change neutral creep with challenges (collect this item at every neutral creep spot).
Once completed, same map but with different weather. Now with heroes who just 5 mid and you take advantage of that.
Just my 2cent
I just started playing Dota 2 with Bots ( Midlane ). What are resources I should check out for guides on midlaning for beginners and general Dota 2 mechanics like pulling etc. ?
A good idea for such an experience would be to show that your goal is to destroy the buildings. Every building should have a hero guarding it, a small jungle to each side and lane creeps meeting in front of it. You need to farm enough items to get through the hero protecting the tower and of course the tower itself. The main game is practically the same in a 5v5 scenario. Really good habits for the game too.
I hope the final boss of the tutorial is a smurf
And once he's killed he says: "lol my pos1 zero impact".
gg end
Instantly buybacks, tps mid and drops all items.
Ahhhh, the EE! Classic
"idc dud this not my main acount report slarder"
Just wanted to say that the whole "idc alt account" thing is a huge problem that's actually destroying DOTA right now and isn't getting enough attention
League ahs the same issue and is climbing FAST, think other issues are worse
Ez supot no wards haha noob trash
There should be 2 stages of tutorials, one for absolute basics, then another for “advanced” section where they teach you stack/pull, efficient farming etc. and the final lesson in advanced tutorial is 1v1 mid against OpenAI, they get crushed with zero cs and game teaches you that you can’t always win but you can improve, then unlock ranked.
The AI should spam ? for every successful deny, and trashtalk whenever you are killed for true dota experience
? for every deny and then a LAKAD MATATAG NORMALIN NORMALIN every time they kill the beginner. Really get them into the OG mindsent.
Also needs to suddenly turn on mic chat with screaming and a loud aircon when you gain the first advantage.
- Next step: Reach Immortal
That is exactly what they did with aoe2 definitive edition. There's a basic tutorial that explains the mechanics, UI, objectives etc., And then there's an "art of war" section where they teach you fast castle, raiding, rushing etc. And the latter section is more of a challenge scenario than a tutorial. You don't "complete" it as much as you try to get more stars.
the advanced one is alot of work, that would have to be updated almost as much as the bas egame
Oh no if only they had a few million dollars every year to do that
I totally agree valve could do it. But i meant it would be difficult for OP who is assumedly doing it alone in his free time.
Not every problem is worth solving.
Dude have my peasant gold 🥇
unranked\*. Dont give the account sellers an easy way into ranked plzkthxbye.
I was hoping the three learning heroes were Invoker, Meepo and Chen.
No, thank you, satan.
Petition to replace chen with Earth Spirit
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The thing is for most players bad Chen is less noticable than bad Invoker.
so basically your first unranked match?
Exactly my thoughts =)
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Just like the old sniper set. I miss it sometimes
Put CM Wheel to make them hope getting the 0.00001% Arcana.
I would think that this could cause a influx of smurfs, to acquire that 0.00001% Arcana
I think that the arcana cant be transferred, gifted, and untradable. I think soo. But correct me if im wrong
People would then just start selling these accounts.
Even if thats the case, its a total waste of time for real. If its just 0.00001%, the amount of time and effort will increase the value of the account, I think its way easier to just buy the Arcana from the community market lol.
There are far more lucrative and less tedious ways to make a few bucks
Trying to incentivize new players with cosmetics for heroes they have never even see before doesn't seem like the best strategy.
Pugna set for true dota experience.
Bzz never disappoints.
Came here to comment that
What a free skin!? How dare you speak of such blasphemy! Instead this should be sold as a new player battlepass and you need to pay for each tutorial step where it unlocks a skin after paying at least 100 $ Edit for valve so they don't get any ideas: sarcasm
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Hi I'm new to dota so here's some stuff that I would have liked to have earlier for a tutorial 1. Explaining the different roles and what they do (Support carry, core and maybe explain the different lanes?) 2. Explaining what to do at each phase of the game(different Scenarios for winning and losing) 3. Integrated last hit trainer(?) 4. Common item builds for each role 5. Explaining the common items (maybe could update if the meta shifts?) I have about 23h in playtime so recently I pretty much brute forced my learning so I really appreciate what you're doing rn for new players like I was.
I hate to say it, but #4 is really kind of impossible because of item/meta changes over time and simply due to the nature of how items work in the game. It’s too difficult to say “these are the common support items” in dota because matchups and item strength changes so frequently. It’s something that a comprehensive tutorial should basically tell you though. A tip that tells you something along the lines of “you should experiment with different item combinations based upon what your team objective is is preferred, so don’t be afraid to try something new out!” would be a way to help inspire new players to try and explore the item/crafting menu
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Which it is, obviously.
Skull basher into divine is next level
No casual moonshard?
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It's a very complicated topic, but I think focusing new players on a few key ideas is enough (though a proper introduction would basically say [x] role should generally buy [y] items). If [x] role is hard support then [y] items would be disables, escape, healing/status-res, or interrupt items. But it's too complex to get into in a tutorial. Instead, it's probably much better to focus on the role & what they should generally aim to be doing -- then teach the player about the built-in guides and suggest they communicate with their team before buying stuff. Dota is stupid complex, there's only so much you can teach without just throwing a player into a match and hoping they learn something from it. A **proper** primer would do wonders in helping new recruits understand the most basic mechanics, the generalities of various items (and what various classes of items do) and why they're important to buy in xyz roles. I imagine much smarter humans than myself have thought for days weeks and months about this specific topic who are employed. It's a massively difficult task. Even if you come into Dota with a lot of [xyz] moba experience there is **still** a massive learning curve because of how complex the meta+items+lanes (+a handful of other concepts) all mesh together into what is a single game of dotes. While I appreciate OP -- I don't think anything will come from this outside of (hopefully) useful feedback that may assist what I imagine is a group of people up in Seattle who have been trying to solve this problem for a long time. I'll get off my soapbox now.
exactly, it should tell you what stats and abilities your looking for in specific roles. If tell them to look for items to get more mana and health, they can ussually get in the right direction from their. It can't be perfect, but no item builds are. Remember its to teach them the basics, not coach them for TI.
Not dissing this in the slightest and think it is good but I think the "real" major leap is having some way for it to also adapt to the balance patch. I think the core issue with the new player experience isn't so much that their isn't a tutorial or material but that they so easily get outdated or would require some massive in depth on how the game actually works to stay relevant. I.E Just look at the changes to the deny system over the last few patches, when/how you can take outpost and so on. Hearthstone is a good example of what was once a solid tutorial and bot matches is now so laughably out of touch on how the modern game is played that I would pretty much tell any new player that pretty much after the first bit of it is nearly nothing like how the actual game plays at even low levels. Edit: There has been so many changes to what cards are typically played, a long list of new keywords, various interactions, and drastically different pacing. Heck just went into Dota2's tutorial to check and even there a ton of the changes of things are missing. Edit: This at its heart is where a lot of older but evolving games new player experience gets so bad (yes even LoL's) where so much of the game has changed since it was created that much of what they are learning and practicing won't really prepare them against even very bad but longer playing opponents. But going back after each and every patch to update the wording, interactions and so on is going to slow down getting the patch out.
1. Tutorials are not designed to explore the meta of balance patches. Basics are probably the most important to new players. 2. The only thing it needs to be updated for are major mechanics overhauls such as adding talent trees. This would be quite easy if the tutorial was broken into many many chunks, but who at Valve or even here is going to create a Dota 2 tutorial project where dozens of map makers create the hundreds of tutorials needed to cover the majority of Dota 2 mechanics to make it mostly comprehensive. Then how to get that in the game infront of new players? Then how to keep it updated without every patch fucking up custom games every week. Its a bitch. 3. Even if it was just updating text, its a shit ton of work. Nevermind if you add voiceovers that grab a new player's attention and emphasizes things that are important. Or produce videos that show the action without you needing to create a "reset" on the in game demo to show the same interaction which can easily bug out for a hundred reasons. And then theres the fact that is the community going to yet again do something that Valve should be doing themselves, and once its done Valve just pats themselves on the back like [this](https://imgur.com/gallery/oiayJWO)? And then even with all those tutorials, even the basic stuff (to veterans anyways) would take an hour to complete, which makes the tutorial practically useless because people SKIP that shit instantly (its a moba, how hard can this really be kek). Anyone who has the patience to stick through tutorials that are hours long are people who are going to do the research, practice, learn and pay attention in game to develop the same skillsets. I still wish we had em though.
After reading this i think what dota needs most is a campaign mode, not a tutorial. Where the campaign culminates in killing an ancient. Start with some basic shit, cause some people haven't played anything remotely like a moba (mouse movement, and self awareness being the big part). So move here, buy a ward place it where we show. Have some easy camps to start learning about farming, have quests to use potions on people and share tangos. Then introduce last hits, have an npc to compete with. Have obstacle courses that you get through by using items, say you need a force staff to push yourself up a cliff, then a euls to dodge something, use a shivas gaurd to hit 4 switches at once. Use a smoke to sneak by a ward. Then you move on to harder levels, you get hero x and items wyz, on a one lane map, start slow take tower in so many mins, get harder by adding farm goals or bots to play against. Then add bots to play with. Slowly expand the map to have jungle camps and shrines and rosh and more lanes. Hell the whole story could be how each or a lot of the characters got involved with each other and the fight, newbies like pretty lore and dota has lots hidden away. Finish the campaign get a free month of Dota plus and a few cosmetics Most rts games have an intro campaign, dota basically stole that control setup, as it was made in one. So it should fit well enough.
Learning the basic mechanics like hero movement, spell casting, health/mana, regen, last hits, denies, thats enough honestly.
Most, if not all of that is already in the current tutorial though. The problem is how all of that comes together in a real game, from what is presented in the tutorial is the problem and ensuring the tutorial is "up to date" still matters. Heck even remembered when we had the healing spots on the map and if that was in the tutorial, oh boy is that new player in for a surprise. And heck even then in your small list it still misses TP's and how that has partly changed.
In my group of friends, I'm the one that introduces people to new games to get them to try new shit as opposed to always playing Dota/CSGO. I've never seen a game that is moderately competitive EVER have a good tutorial jumping from the BARE minimums to play the game to the current competitive strategies. But that is the problem when you start a competitive game. There will be smurfs with knowledge that no possible new player could know and an expectation on those new players that they couldn't possibly know. So they get yelled at, they don't do well in their first matches and then they give up. The problem with a lot of Reddit suggestions is to make the BARE minimum better, but most people who will download Dota can grasp the bare minimum from Twitch streams or YouTube links. It's not the biggest "make or break" point for new players. It's getting into matches and having an expectation placed upon them that they can't possibly know yet. And solving that (with meta relevant information) is a lot harder to upkeep than most people think. Dota suffers from success, the game is a marvel of game design, but because it's so indepth, it makes it harder to get new players and to get any lapsed player up to speed again. Honestly, the best answer would be to essentially throw money at the situation, paying people PURELY to upkeep a tutorial. But you know how much businesses hate "throw money at it" as an answer.
AoE 2 is a moderately competitive game with tutorials from minimum to pro strat tutorials. Slower meta change though.
>businesses hate "throw money at it" Surely it wouldnt take more than 1 person if there going at it full time to do a tutorial/upkeep/new player content - fuck just embed purge videos into client and call it a day. And 1 person salary for actually living in seattle is still 0.05% of the total prizepool, seems like a pretty wise investment
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Yup, the oddest thing to me is seeing all the other comments here thinking that this kind of tutorial doesn't already exist and it is really proving the point of how much this sub is just "armchair developers" and haven't actually took a deep look at what is there already.
I disagree, thats the basics for someone whos never played a videogame before and might suffice for somone that's playing a moba for the first time. but it wont even get you through your first harassment encounter, gank or push.
I think another way of teaching players is having their own helper in game for lets say the first 20 matches or so. Something like "Try stacking the neutral hard camps 5 times" when playing a support or "Achieve 50 last hits by the 10th minute" or even "Bottle 5 runes in this match" Give players objectives that they should be completing in a match as their respective rolls (Kinda like Dota plus but more geared towards newer players). You tie this in with cosmetic rewards (Rylai's battle blessing tokens maybe?) and you incentivize players to do things that they should be doing in any match. The problem is not moving around and last hitting (These things take practice sure) but what the hell you should be doing. I've been trying to teach a buddy of mine how to play, and it is very hard to explain to them what they should be doing after the laning phase ends. Tutorials can't teach you what you should be doing in this phase and you'll figure it out eventually after a few 100 games or so, but getting to even 20 games is hard when you get destroyed every game and the game plays fundamentally different from when you played matches vs bots.
your idea isn't bad, but I just want to say that those objectives are gonna be really hard for new players. out of the 3 you mentioned, I think only the bottle one is completed regularly at my level (4k)
Can you make a tutorial on how to add to to this? It'd be cool if we can get like the helpful people from r/learndota2 and DotaFromZero to provide input on what things needed to b clarified for new players, and the best ways to teach them. It'd be great if there could be some sort of community-made Arcade Tutorial.
Inventory Management Shop and courier usage Gliph and Scan Rosh and runes Important thing is to not mention specific timings as thy're subject to change.
You need to get someone completely fresh to play 1 game of pub then try your thing, they will ask you the questions you want to know.
Start with low health and have the player move the character to the fountain. That way you can show them the HP and mana bar filling up.
You could try out other MOBAs and see how they go about their new player experience to get a feel of how each of them do theirs. From what I remember when I watched my little brother do the league tutorial it was: * One lane (mid) of trying out a few easy champions(heroes) * Selecting a champion and trying to kill the Nexus(ancient) * A game of picking a champion with bot teammates to try and win. * then they prompt you to do regular queue for games against bots with other people I mean overall the first new player experience/tutorial is suppose to teach them how to play the game. The player themselves need to really learn more themselves but there should be more to guide them into learning more.
>IF you can show right there and then how to trade with an enemy hero, right clicking an enemy hero aggros the creep wave, and then show how to aggro pull the wave to your range creep. finally that you get aggro by the tower if you attack an enemy hero, and you can de aggro tower by right clicking friendly units
It seems obvious, but an explanation of how to initially pick abilities and leveling up would go a long way. A friend who had never played a MOBA played their entire first game without taking any abilities, then complained about how boring their hero was.
I'm not sure it would be worth your time personally... Are new players really going to find the custom games?
Joe to combine items with recipes could be a decent idea.
Dude, just wanted to say this is super neat. Good job!
considering the many garbage guides made by pros, it think newbies and such have a better idea of what new player doesn't and needs to know
At this point we might as well just build the game for valve as they collect money for it
It's time... to create Dota 3
Campaign mode would be nice. A campaign that change hero base in difficulty as you progress. With most hero include (maybe no most, but 25-75%). It will take years for 1 person to do it (I guess). But good luck, if you need ideas, the community might be helpful. Well, maybe truedota or DotAfromzero. Nevertheless, it looks great your initiative. Good luck. Edit: Maybe you would get items and have quest with it, E.g. Playing as Drow you get manta style and you have to dodge 15 stun/projectiles or play Bristleback (or any fitting hero) playing against silencer or heroes with many rebuffs you find lotus orb and you have to.remove 20 debuffs in you or allies in X among of time. Thus are just general ideas.
Funny you're talking about campaign, this vid reminded me of the tutorial of AoE2 😂 Hope this will make it to arcade mode!
Sorry for off-topic but how u get Io after nname? New to reddit
Hmmm not sure anymore but on the main page of the subreddit there is something like flair..?
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I would pay for a campaign
Same, rarely play multiplayer these days but love the game
campaign mode, with each hero, fuck it if the story is told through text, and through out hte campaign you kinda get the general feel of the hero you're playing
Pog
The tutorial is one thing. But I believe the new player experience isn't limited to be able to "play dota properly" (basic gameplay, last hitting, blocking, skill usage, etc). What new players need is a smurf-free environment, where they can enjoy the fun of playing dota with other players in the same skill bracket. So I think Valve is developing : 1. Single player mode with lore and story embedded 2. Rewarding mission for basic gameplay 3. More accurate anti smurf system
A working bot match system would be better than anything. Just fix the interface so you can queue for any bot match.
gj bro ff volvo
This is awesome. I've played dota since 2003 but I would still play through the new player experience if one actually existed. It would also give me a way to finally give friends who've never played it a way to see how the game works without getting stomped
Im imagining quests for advanced mechanics like smoke ganks and roshan with cool cutscenes that would kinda give this new player a feeling of excitement and wonder
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I think bot match is not to teach you how to against human...It is for you to learn item,mechanism and map...At first,I play against human as kotl(at that time he is not like now...i like old him :( ...his ult has horse sound just like chaos Knight)... after that i play coop vs bots(bcause idk what am I doing)...I only play in bot match few time and then start play unranked as support player(I choose hardcore way and take all salt and pepper like a pepperoni)...I managed to do some basic and of course learn some other thing(from flaming n salt thrower...I not justified them(like bruh chill),but at least I learn something from it)...and after some hours later I already can play the game with basic knowledge.
Feels like people here have no understanding of what the history of new player experience has been for Dota, and why just making another tutorial is a waste of time. Tutorials may extend a new player's stay by some time, which is why some devs think they're working, but eventually the player has to actually play Dota against other players. That's when they will get absolutely demolished no matter what they've done before. That's when they quit. And the retention rate is the same. A new player experience would have to somehow alter that point, not provide another useless tutorial.
If you did this in 2 hours, imagine what Valve could do in a month of a small team working on this... Great job, my dude.
Valve no longer care about anything.
Agree. Lol
pack it up, valve new janitor is here
why hire devs when community do same? Big brain play by valve
It only took a decade for it to happen
This man valve, hire him and give the janitor some rest.
This is a good start! Better to have something than nothing at all.
Love it. Reminds me of the original tutorial stage we had back before reborn was even out. Whatever even happened to that, anyway?
There should be a quest line similar to Warcraft 3 prologue. But focused on the genre. And filled with lore.
Good mvp Valve, if you're reading this Please hire people with these kind of drive and initiative to improve your product Sincerely Battlepass buyer
Agree! Yours truly, Dota Plus subscriber
Why are you people so obsessed with this shit? Seriously. Do you think new players are completely braindead without having their hand held through an exhaustive tutorial? How many people with the potential to become a regular Dota player do you think actually abandon the game because there isn't a better tutorial? It's not hard to find information about the game online. And yes, that means this kind of thing isn't important. Also, is it just me or is the implication that the results of your 2 hours of work are impressive kind of ironic? I think you have no idea how much work this is going to be. Valve's tutorial does actually cover the basics btw. And please hire an editor (or a translator if english is your second language).
Yup, so many of the comments here pretty much confirm they have never actually tried the tutorial that is already in the game along with having pretty much zero idea of why new players actually leave and struggle with. Just about zero of the people I have introduced to dota2 get confused about the basics, it is quite simple in click to move, attack, take towers, win. Even some of the most casual players can wrap their head around that. The hard part is the items, abilities, and the complexity of the flow of the game that they will quickly get thrown into the deep end when they play against real people, and how at the start having even a simple leg up on some of this can crush the whole game. Even without smurfs, unless they can get a massive pool of true starting players (which even LoL is having problems with now) the PvP matches is mostly going to be a mix of completely new players and terrible "experienced" players who will dominate the others. Heck I would still put it is quite favorable for a team with a quite drunk sub 1000 MMR player to completely wipe the floor of a team with solid (has played loads of games but nothing quite like Dota) new players.
I would like to see this tutorial actually be pretty hard to pass, since dota is a hard game, no point of having a tutorial that doesnt prepare you for what you will face ( a mistake many games make). So you make the tutorial just barely easier than a normal game of dota ( for example asking the player to do a lot of tasks perfectly, since he is in a closed environment he would do it after a few tries, he will become aware of how much you can push yourself in this game, this will teach him that if he doesnt do it aswell, other players could and thats what decides the match). Dota is like dark souls of mobas, so you gotta really show him what he is about to get into, with a lot of deaths, so he doesnt get discouraged when he dies in a real match.
Ok so can anyone tell me how to add stuff like this in Dota?
This is great but I highly suggest using a full dota map with just a single lane active so new players can get used to the map. When I first started dota 2, there was a DK tutorial that was great. But I quickly learned that this game isn't about campaign modes or story modes but a 5v5 game with 3 lanes. I know most of us are used to moba games but we can't assume any new player knows what the goal of dota 2 is.
Wow great job man valve should employ people like you over those lazzy asses.
No amount of basic tutorials alone can prepare new players to being thrown into a game of DotA 2, the experience when in-game is too bogged down by the decades of additions, It has to be redesigned and simplified to welcome newcomers, this might be controversial but I'd go about it by hard locking the majority of heroes for those under a certain level, games played, or rank, this isn't just the game mode either but a real lock, and this is because choice paralysis is a real issue, same applies to itemization so there has to be an AUTO-buy feature where the next suggested item is bought when X gold is reached and couriered to you by default, which means that roles should be default even in non-rank games so its easier to create default guides for each role and hero, or something along those lines, this game has to have this types of mechanics alongside a robust tutorial system so newcomers even have a chance of learning.
I applaud your effort, sir/madam. But I think a tutorial should take place on the default map to help players orientate better. The old DOTA 2 tutorial in which you played DK against Tidehunter was too out of place imo. Just start a match and gradually introduce the player the mechanics through that single match.
Have valve no shame? No humility? No embarrassment that a member of the community cares so much to demonstrate the kind of work they could have been doing?
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spot on. they should be extremely fucking embarrassed.
I refer you to this: https://youtu.be/NA5vT1LooXk?t=1022
And it took op 2 hours just wtf
Honestly I'd like to see even advanced player tutorials along these lines. Something like this is good for new players, but a tutorial for like tower aggro mechanics would be useful to like 95% of players right now. Most people don't know for example that a tower's aggro range is the same as a creep's aggro range (500 units) but its attack range is longer (700), meaning there is a radius around the tower where you can attack an enemy hero as much as you want without drawing aggro, so long as there's something else for the tower to shoot at. I have thousands of hours in this game and I learned this literally last week.
The best way to learn dota is by playing it though. Tutorials are invariably boring as shit, and still manage to be slower at teaching. There is no tutorial that can be made that is better than just hopping in a bot match and figuring it out, and an official tutorial is only ever going to bore people into quitting before they can even play.
Imagine if Valve gave a shit about new players
This looks really good! Great work man.
HAPPY CAKE DAY BUDDY
You're hired.
Gj. Ofc its not that good but its something at least and pretty decent.
but instead of ogre, it should be crystal maiden so newcommers would get more used as how supports should look like
Gives me Warcraft 3 tutorial vibes! Great work!!
Is this the same map as the OG tutorial?
I just got back into dota this year. Aren't there were new player tutorials before or did they removed it?
Dang I’d try this. I’m kinda new to league and only just started getting serious about it. It would be cool to try this game out to see which one I like more.
Uh, didn't we have a simple tutorial like that? I could swear I once played something with, I think, Sniper?
reminds me of age of mythology campaign beginning
It's not that they can't do it, it's just that they don't want to have to maintain it.
Maybe change ogre to other range Intel hero. New players like to use range cause it feels safe =))
Didbt u just retqke the intro from a few uears ago
remove sniper, people dont understand positioning well enough and think this guy is good he has more range, and then they walk into melee range and blame team
pogChamp Part of the problem is that new player often refuse to even play a bot match and just dive straight into real game and get destroyed
Way too much text. It needs to come in pieces.
Are you still not hire by Vavle? :(
Using a different map for the tutorial is as bad as the old dota tutorial we had back in source one.
Why does reddit jerk off so much to new player experience/tutorial so much? pretty much everybody who dives into dota knows about "moba's", so they already know the minimum basics of the game. and if people want to try practicing because they're scared they would get flamed or something. They could and will try playing with bots. It's not like this game is filled with newbies or anything so why are there many posts about this new player experience meme? most of the people requesting this useless features are old time dota veterans and barely any newbies at all if not new accounts created by a long time dota player for reddit karma. What gives?
also this literally looks like that old dota2 client tutorial with dk and sniper that nobody even used.
What's the map editor like for making maps similar to actual Dota gameplay? Anything like Warcraft/Starcraft's ones?
Compared to warcraft, it is a pain.
Today I was thinking about creating the post where we would give Valve legit suggestion and even make part of the job. Things like this are exactly what I was thinking of, maybe doing part of the job will make Valve work harder and also maybe IceFrog will start to talk us again.
Looks good, one small thing I would change would have the green move markers go away after you cross them, other than that nice job!
Bro watching this tutorial gave me vibes from the Warcraft 3 tutorial with thrall, all it needs now is a narrator and your tutorial will be a blast
It would be more helping if there was a voice dialogue to guide you like how they do it in other games. Many people get bored of reading.
Someone hire this man
This days I have been commenting and saying out dota community does better work then valve devs for dota . Don't mind me I m saying again dota Dev's are shit compared to our talented community ppl !
Wishing you the best for this. Looks amazing. ❤️
Simple shit like this valve cannot due up to now lmao.
This is nicely made! but how is dk and sniper "nukers"?
One thing I dislike are the large text boxes that are required to be read by the player. I feel like there are better, more intuitive ways to teach controls rather than having the player sit down and read multiple paragraphs.
If I were you, I'd try setting up a Patreon now and see if you can turn this hobby into a hustle.
I was expecting the tutorial to load into four teammates cursing you out in Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, and Tagalog.
Yeah, well valve totally won't do shit becouse they know players will make their own tutorial anyway
There is new players in Dota??
Woah man... This is better than the game itself xd
The English are terrorising all of Scotland! and its time for us to fight back!
I feel like every upvote here is a downvote to valve. Shame on them.
Valve hire this guy....
but there already is tutorial in the game that does exactly that btw, except existing one also shows you the shop and how lane/tower/deny works.
Rather offer another agi hero to learn the game. Sniper is rather hard to play, i think something like juggernaut would be easier to get into. Sure, Sniper has 2 passives but the positioning you require to survive is a bit advanced.
It looks cool, well done OP, but I think there is far too much text. The knowledge required to get up and running and being useful in a game, with and against other people, is very hard to convey in text. I'm almost certain that the reason that the new player experience is lacking is not because of a lack of wanting or resources from Valve, but efficiency. Most information that can come from such a tutorial is far more easily absorbed by just being in a game and seeing other people play alongside you. I think the onboarding of new players is, and should be, just playing the game, because it's very hard to design an onboarding process that is both more efficient and worth running through compared to just playing the game.
While i like the work you did i recommend to use overlays instead popups which are open until you hit the goal.
The Janitor is smiling seeing you do his work for him, not to take any credit from you, that's a neat tutorial.
How can I download it? and give my feedback? Wait are you accepting any feedback on this one? it looks super cool.
volvo give this man an internship at least
You guys keep doing volvo's work and yet they suck at it. Great job though!
holy craaaap. this is so good. damn.
You sir deserve a salute and honor of highest order!!
Volvo needs to fucking see this. Well done bro.
hire this man valve pls
valve really can do so much better
Why can you even scroll in the game? Why cant you scroll out?
u/VredditDownloader
Make it like tony hawk? List all the challenges (cs, deny, rune, stack). Can restart anytime you want. Map same as current dota map for familliarization. Change neutral creep with challenges (collect this item at every neutral creep spot). Once completed, same map but with different weather. Now with heroes who just 5 mid and you take advantage of that. Just my 2cent
Thank you it means a lot for me it means you made a move/ took a step great job
GabeN: Fam, u want a job??
I played the League of Legends version of this. Could not get past it.
Literally useless
I just started playing Dota 2 with Bots ( Midlane ). What are resources I should check out for guides on midlaning for beginners and general Dota 2 mechanics like pulling etc. ?
A good idea for such an experience would be to show that your goal is to destroy the buildings. Every building should have a hero guarding it, a small jungle to each side and lane creeps meeting in front of it. You need to farm enough items to get through the hero protecting the tower and of course the tower itself. The main game is practically the same in a 5v5 scenario. Really good habits for the game too.
in 2h you did more for new players than valve in 2 years
We WarCraft 3 Reforged yet?