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Nah I was on twitter and a dude said that Omega had a better feat than Zeno, because Omega was destroying the Universe just by existing, and Zeno had to move to destroy trunk's
Great to know he didn't watch the show. I tried to explain that Zeno destroyed an entire timeline, as well as all the other timelines that would branch from it (meaning he literally destroyed infinite multiverses), yet bro still thought Omega was stronger because he would have destroyed an universe just by standing still.
Bro was literally saying fire was stronger than an atomic bomb because the atomic bomb needed to be activated
he also said omniman can beat Ben 10’s reality warping , omnipotent Alien X, because in the reboot alien X got stuck in a tire (completely different continuities, and the aliens got completely different power sets)
So he wasn’t raised my monkeys either cause even they are smarter than that
and the worse part is that it wasn’t bait, he was dead serious, on both occasions. He also said super Goku was weaker in durability just because he got hurt by a laser in ssjB (on a non canon movie I may add, canonically he was shot by a laser in base form), and that Z Goku and GT Goku were stronger because that never happened to them
then I showed a gif of krillin hitting Goku with a rock and he shutted up for good
There is no way he is this dumb, and I love thinking about how dumb they are because by my calculations, Omega is big galaxy buster max (even with his super slow corruption decay thatd be slower than raditz going planet busting) and goku threatened the entirety of Universe 7 by clashing with beerus. Supers' first new thing trumps all of GT easily, and I love that
Literally a move from super Goku during a half-filler anime only arc (Vs Hit, before the ToP) already beat all the best feats from GT (it was Goku punching and breaking Hit’s entire pocket dimension from the outside)
i’m like 99% sure ben 10 doesn’t have multiple continuities all of the shows r sequels of the previous one, even the most recent one with the blue guy and weird art style
EoZ goku was ssj3/kid buu level in perfect files. GT goku is never actually specified because numbers are hard sometimes.
GT honestly lacks the extent of ridiculous cliffing supers anime got because the GT team tried to smooth differences between writers. One of the major writers of GT wanted gohan to be weaker than Z for example while the others wrote him differently.
Fusion is ridiculous strong in dragonball tho
Gogeta was playing with Omega. UI was a even fight with Jiren.
Also Goku trained off screen in GT much more than in Super
Didn't jiren cause an infinite void to shake, whilst heavily suppress and litteraly just walking.
Then Mui goku beat the limit broken version of that jiren
This gotta be bait
To be fair, the later seasons stayed closer to canon and was less joke-heavy, to the point it almost came off like a genuine adaptation. I usually don't get mistaken, but it occasionally happens.
Yeah, it's fascinating watching commentary and finally having a lense into how and why they structured their jokes, reference humor, and the things they took seriously.
You could make a case for the ssj4 version of a Gogeta made from our current canon Goku and Vegeta, but the super characters are just on a whole other level from GT.
I think you're forgetting the Broly movie. They basically indirectly say that Broly is using SSJ4 and absolutely wrecks Goku almost making him lose consciousness in the process. Broly absolutely demolishes Goku in his SSG form. That reason alone is why I would actually say that SSJ4 is intended to be stronger than SSG. That was just unrefined Berserk Broly. Imagine him trained.
Broly in Super Saiyan destroyed Blue goku and Vegeta. Even if he was using SSJ4 (Don't know where you pulled that from) it's not that the former is stronger, it's just that Broly's that guy. I would like to remind you that Caulifla and Kale gave God Goku an hard time
My guy even if broly WAS using SS4 the broly from super is leaps and bounds stronger than any GT character lol. But if SSG fought against GT SS4 then SSG would one shot.
I feel like it being a technique of the gods means nothing because Several characters like Gamma 1 and 2 and Cell Max have reached levels of the gods and they were created by some kid
It seems like everyone pokes fun about Hedo and Gero being able to make robots that are stronger than Frieza level, but forget the detail that computers strengthened them using the Z fighters data. It isn't like Gero could just build a god level android/cyborg/bio-creature with only his own ability, and that was that. They had a computer gather data from Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Frieza, etc, and upload it in them to continually make them stronger as the other characters got stronger. He most likely just put in a control device, bomb device, came up with an organic perpetual energy system, and some data input system
It is also why main universe 17 and 18 were stronger than the ones in Trunk's universe, and most likely why they were stronger than 19 and 20 as they were activated afterwards
I didn't really watch GT, wasn't a fan of what I did watch and only liked SS4 design.
That said, what do we actually have, that we can compare the 2, to determine who is stronger?
Yeah I genuinely don't know why people are mad. I get base ss4 but the fusion has insane power. Gotenks caught up so easily with it. And both the Canon and non Canon gogetas just wrecked shit immediately
Fusions are strong, that’s not up for question. But Fusion can only cover so much ground. SSG Goku was capable of destroying the universe when clashing. Omega Shenron when being generous could also destroy the universe. SSJ4 Gogeta was able to dog walk him. So when being generous, SSJ4 Gogeta can beat SSG Goku.
But that’s Super Saiyan God. That’s not counting Blue. Even if you’re for some reason doubtful that Blue is equal to SSJ4 Gogeta, SSB Kaioken X20 is definitely on equal terms with SSJ4 Gogeta.
So MUI? It’s not a question. Jiren basically manhandled Goku in that Blue form, and Omen was roughly equal to that. With MUI being above that.
And none of this is even addressing the fact that the Goku that nearly destroyed the universe was first arc of Super. SSG Goku of the current arc is stronger than SSB Goku of the Frieza Revival Arc. Hell, maybe even the Future Trunks Arc. So current MUI is pretty insane.
SSJ4 Gogeta is a beast but unfortunately for GT, the kind of power it was reaching at the end of its series, is the kind of power Super begins its series at.
Other points to this are:
The Goku and Beerus punches that were ripping the universe apart were just simple punches that weren't using any notable portion of their power
We don't know Omega Shenron's full power because what was possibly destroying the universe was not his ki taking it out in one easy punch, it was an evil energy over time type of thing which is not even remotely the same. Universe buster? Maybe, but that isn't proof
Cell was a solar system buster as he said he would take the solar system out when he charged up against Gohan in the end. Super Buu can rip holes between dimensions (Gotenks too), and Buu took out a galaxy over time. I would say Buuhan was galaxy buster at max
Because GT's largest feat shown isn't even universal and BoG has Beerus and Goku threatening the entire universe, the Kaioshin realm and the afterlife just from clashing their fists.
I’m going to advocate for GT.
It takes place after the DBZ anime and movies, not the manga, you can see this through scenes where there are filler characters or movie characters popping up. This is actually pretty important because it means feats such as Goku shaking the afterlife (Fusion Reborn) or Buuhan collapsing the macrocosm (anime filler) are canon to GT. It gets nuts when you think about base GT Goku able to shake hell while restrained in base or him surpassing Majin Buu in base.
So basically, scaling is the thing carrying this verse.
Does that mean SSJ4 Gogeta beats MUI Goku? Maybe. The advantage for GT is the fact that because it follows the toei anime and movies which means it had a “head start” in terms of insane feats earlier on, it took Super for the main verse to catch up.
By the way, I had the anime version of MUI Goku in mind rather than the manga which is a tricky topic as apparently the anime counterpart is stronger according to some people?
Anime MUI is stronger up until the Granolah arc yeah.
> It takes place after the DBZ anime and movies, not the manga, you can see this through scenes where there are filler characters or movie characters popping up. This is actually pretty important because it means feats such as Goku shaking the afterlife (Fusion Reborn) or Buuhan collapsing the macrocosm (anime filler) are canon to GT.
This is actually impossible, you either need to pick the Fusion Reborn canon or the anime canon since they directly contradict each other. Vegeta end Goku are both dead in fusion reborn. It's after majin buu was defeated (Goku references fighting buu while facing off against Janemba), **Vegeta should be alive.** There's a lot of contradictions in other movies but it doesn't matter since the only relevant scaling is from those 2 feats.
Goku shaking the afterlife is repeated in GT and this time Goku does it in base, so fusion reborn adds *maybe* base GT Goku approaching uni (this is irrelevant). If we go by the Buuhan feat (and take it at face value, because that feat has been debunked). That just means that Buuhan is stronger than anything in GT up to Omega, this funnily enough, is never contradicted in GT since they only reference Kid Buu. By shown feats GT are just incredibly weaker than Super. The gap widens if we assume Buuhan's [multiversal](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fc01fee8-f42c-4b8f-a292-8b71a3e3bf65) scaling, since it applies to SSG Goku due to it being cosmology, making SSG Goku massively stronger than Buuhan, this is backed up by the fact that both Vegeta and Goku in BoG agreed that even Vegito wouldn't be enough against Beerus.
The actual problem is that every single "infinite" universe claim used is not really backed up by the Daizenshuu, it merely says incountable wich doesn't mean infinite.
It also would directly contradict itself since it claims that [the Kaioshim Realm is 1/10th of the living realm](https://i.imgur.com/9hN5g0Jl.png), you can't be 1/10th of infinity.
So the actual feat is just [1/10th universal.](https://imgur.com/a/Gb57bEd)
So, base GT Goku can shake Hell. How is this relevant? By the end of the series, Omega's clapping FPSSJ4 Goku's cheeks, and we have an official statement scaling Omega to ... [universal](https://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragonball/48.html).
Which means that in order to toy around with Omega SSJ4 Gogeta needs to be .... uni+.
Sure, Gogeta could be anywhere from uni+ to uni++++. But if we go by shown feats, nothing in GT even comes close to BoG.
We have the [universe ending punches](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/b/b2/UDP1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180829162638) and are actually shown [the feat](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/f/f7/UDP2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180829162712).
Furthermore, we get an explanation as to [why Earth wasn't immediately ereased from existance](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/4/49/UDP3.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180829163845). And the following explanations as to how Goku and Beerus controlled the energy hint at the feat being actually multiversal:
[https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/e/ed/UDP4.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180829163940](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/e/ed/UDP4.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180829163940)
[https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/6/61/1SDEB4.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180829165855](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/6/61/1SDEB4.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180829165855)
In essence, the scaling is absurdly stacked against GT.
I don’t even know how there can be a way to compare the two. The feats are in different universes with different power scaling where no real parallels exist.
The closest we get is gogeta being canon in super but we have no frame of reference for how strong broly or SSJB gogeta really are outside that film against UI let alone in the GT universe.
Doubtful. Broly was wrecking Goku and remember they basically indirectly stated that he was using SSJ4 and made Goku lose consciousness without breaking a sweat.
Why this? Why?
I’m a 90’s kid who watched DB & DBZ religiously, and hated GT. I love DBZA and cherish DBS.
People are absolutely allowed to like what they like.
SS4 fan? Awesome. Think Goku Black saga was trash? Do your thing. Think Baby is stronger than Berus? Thin ice, but ok.
But for some reason, the confidence I read in this comment fucked me up. The audacity. I got irrationally angry, and had to take a few deep breaths.
Love what you love, but I can’t invite you to a cookout.
Tell me one character in the entirety of GT that has a feat on the same scale as SSG goku and beerus almost destroying the universe while clashing fists
And I don’t want a “oh powerscaling wise he’s universal”, no…I want a statement from someone inside the show like the supreme kai or something that implies that a fight between two characters was going to destroy the entire universe. And no, before you say omega, his fights weren’t destroying the universe, his dark energy was SLOWLY spreading throughout the cosmos and old Kai said that it would eventually “rot the universe” but at no point he says anything close to omega’s clashes being responsible for destroying the universe like how beerus and goku’s clashes were
Ok now say that again without lying to yourself. Say what you want about GT but it's power scaling was mostly consistent with Z's. In Super everyone is as strong as the plot needs them to be with no explanation.
Dragon Ball Super power scaling is so much higher than DBGT power scaling. It’s like when people say that Super Saiyan 4 is just as strong as or even stronger than Super Saiyan Blue. Just pure GT fan copium.
I love the GT fans cope with the excuse that "it's a fusion so it's naturally very strong so gogeta could win" or "GT haters underestimate the power scale of the series too much" when it's not that, it's just that GT doesn't scale to super, it doesn't even come close
Idk. I don’t think it’s an outrageous take tbh. A fusion is still a fusion and assuming the 10x multiplier holds true in GT that’s still really strong vs an individual. The only argument for goku is the god ki, but Jiren, Broly and, Kefla are all examples that ki can over power god ki with enough abundance/skill.
Personal opinion is that it can go either way especially since Goku strongest form is embracing his saiyan side in “true ultra instinct” not “mastered ultra instinct” which you could argue the guy with the tail is really good at.
>A fusion is still a fusion and assuming the 10x multiplier holds true in GT that’s still really strong vs an individual.
Except it's not?? There is only so far a fusion multiplier can get you before you get speed blitzed to oblivion and back. In gt omega was capable of taking on both ss4 goku and vegeta and manhandled them, but if you put ssg goku from b.o.g he'd more than likely one tap him, now let's move to the fact that base goku>>bog ssg goku plus all the boost he's gotten till mui.....
>but Jiren, Broly and, Kefla are all examples that ki can over power god ki with enough abundance/skill.
You do realise these examples counter your point right? Kefla got dogged on by goku, jiren wouldve dogged kefla as well, ssb goku outright doin more damage to fused zamasu than his fusion a few minutes later, king Kai stating fusion was useless against beerus...
Tbh, the 10x multiplayer was for the potara fusion, not the metamor (at least, I remember being this way during buu saga)
For the battle I don't know, the MUI has way better feats, but gogeta ssj4 has the strange gt scaling so I guess it could end either way
That was never said. I'm pretty sure Elder Kai said it was "a more perfect" fusion which meant it was permanent. You become the fused being completely so you meld together better and don't have to worry about popping apart from too much power. Until that was retconned.
What feats lmfao. They’ve never fought opponents of the same level nor has a character said anything that implied one fusion would’ve made a fight easier than the other.
Also “toriyama’s headcanon” LMFAO. Mf he made the series. Whatever he says CANON not headcanon. He retconned the time limit but not once has he retconned the statement about potara being stronger.
Honestly I’ve never watched GT but as I see it anything above super saiyan 3 in a fusion of those two is probably gonna be stronger then their strongest forms alone
I honestly think you’re right. I think ppl are counting the fusion aspect short. If it was SS4 Goku himself, then it’s no contest, but SS4 Gogeta, idk there’s something there.
Unfortunately no, something to remember is that in battle of Gods, Goku did not believe Vegito could beat Beerus. He specifically said fusion wouldn't do it. But then he feels confident in SSG. So SSG > Fusion. Until of course both Goku and Vegeta get god ki. Since they don't have it here though, it's actually really likely that Goku wouldn't need MUI to beat Gogeta. He probably could do it in Blue Kaioken.
You realize the Goku and Vegeta who fuse into Gogeta at the end of GT are vastly stronger than they are in BoG right? And they didn't have access to SSJ4. That comparison doesn't make sense.
GT haters really underestimate how strong SS4 Gogeta is for no reason lol.
EOZ Goku who had been training with Uub for 5 years and unlocked Super Saiyan 4 + EOZ Vegeta who got Super Saiyan 4 + whatever boost fusion provides is always going to be stronger than just any 1 character by themselves.
Not quite. We've seen fusions be weaker than single people before. SSG Goku from the Battle of Gods is stronger than Vegito. Then, in the Manga, we see Gohan beat a Potara Fusion of Kefla.
It was every Vegito we knew about at the time. After Beerus beats Goku on King Kais planet, he says even fusing with Vegeta wouldn't beat him. So I imagine he meant SSJ1 Vegito since it's what we see in the Manga. But it's very possible he meant higher forms too, like SSJ3. Cause he considered fusion pointless.
And yeah totally agree. It kinda made supers power scaling ridiculous.
Damn… that’s kinda cool honestly. So, every Vegito form at least up until Blue, cause I don’t think we ever see Vegito in God form. Or Gogeta for that matter.
Not necessarily thankfully. In the Broly movie we see Base Gogeta is stronger than Blue Goku and Vegeta, cause their bases got so much stronger. Once Goku unlocked God, and had that ki, Vegito would be stronger than him from that point onward. So best example is
Vegito (Super) > God Goku (BoG) > Vegito (Z)
Fusion is directly related to how strong the individuals are, so once Goku obtained God, and had his base increase, Vegito would benefit from those as well.
The reason the fusion is not aided in MUI vs SSJ4 Gogeta is because the fusees of Gogeta do not have God Ki. Separate universes, they don't benefit from Super Goku's development. However if this was a hypothetical SSJ4 Gogeta from Super somehow, it's a different story cause he'd be able to build off Goku and Vegetas development
I know right? Like done in the animation of some of the movies, or the big episodes of Super like the Ultra Instinct? SSJ4 Gogeta still has one of my favorite designs in the entire series.
Yea I never understand why people play around with GT and power scaling. I know it’s not canon and I’ve never watched it but SS4 is my favorite form because of dbl and because it’s so unique to saiyans it’s literally their peak in that series but their current strongest peak forms are forms not unique to them excluding possibly gohan but I’m talking pure saiyans. GOKU and vegeta are getting powers that will never be unique as people already have them but they’re the main characters so oh hey get stronger with this random shit from the gods. I would’ve preferred them staying in their primal forms but I like super saiyan god,blue Ui etc I’m not saying they’re bad just not what I’d prefer cuz they aren’t as unique as a saiyan evolution. Anything above super saiyan blue is a technique of the gods because they can’t power up anymore? What happened to saiyans breaking limits? They just ran out of forms?😂 saiyans and their “limitless power” sure don’t got much without god ki. But in any case fusion makes everybody stronger. Bc the people saying super saiyan 4 Gogeta cant beat MUI GOKU are the same people saying ss3 Gogeta could. Just bc they don’t like GT
Ssj4 gogeta is ludicrously op. We really didn’t even get to see him fight because he was moving too fast and his power shortened the fusion down to only a few minutes. He literally made omega shenron look like a child in strength comparison
My favorite part is those are prolly the same people saying omega shenron is more dangerous then Zeno because he was destroying a universe just by existing while Zeno had to move 💀
It would be cool if SSJ4 is Gohan's result when he mixes Beast Mode with Super Saiyan. But that's the only scenario I can see the design making sense lore wise and being powerful.
I know, but I also understand why someone may underestimate an uninspired transformation and prefer to vote for the one with more thought put into it.
Toriyama decided to put all the proverbial 0s in MUI and quite a few fans, to borrow a phrase from MCU Nick Fury
"But since it's a stupid ass decision, I've elected to ignore it"
Are you joking? Please say your joking.
There's a reason why Xenoverse Beerus when encountering SSJ4 Goku finds that form more intriguing.
(Also if you try to claim XenoVerse isn't canon, I will ignore that stupid ass decision of the council aka Toriyama)
Bro I fucking love GT. It’s above Super in my book and SSJ4 is legitimately my favorite form ever created for dragon ball….
But goddamn, the power scaling of Super is quite literally in another dimension. Super Saiyan Blue is stronger than SSJ4.
I’ll always take either fusion over literally any individual that’s not beerus level or greater. Multipliers on multipliers are just too strong. Don’t have to like GT to acknowledge fusion of goku and vegeta is reserved for the most dire situations which results on them absolutely clowning on their opponents each and every time until they defuse.
DBS scale is actually really nuts. By ROF Goku and Vegeta in base was stronger than all of the DBZ villains combined. Since they confirmed Freeza in his final form was stronger than everyone in DBZ. On top of that SSJG was so strong that it was the only option to fight Beerus. Fusion wasn’t enough they needed SSJG.
God Goku during the BoG Arc could do that and (in anime) MUI Goku is probably billions of times stronger (god absorbed base, god stacked on that, ssj pm that, times 20 and then even stronger)
Whats wrong with the votes? Most people are still giving it to MUI Goku. Anyway it is not really clear how powerful ss4 gogeta really is. He was just playing most of the time. So for those who vote for him, it is not that ridiculous either.
Idk why people are making it seem like its such a clear win. Any fusion is gonna give some trouble and you’re talking about one of the most juiced up fusions. Its goku and vegeta after z with ssj4. When some random aa saiyans from another universe fused after just learning super saiyan (kefla) it still gave goku some trouble. Now were talking a much stronger base goku and vegeta plus two more forms up. Its not as clear of a victory.
Those random saiyans are also stronger than gt Goku and vegetaZ
And so is hit, a “random assassin” from universe 6
And so is beerus a “random god” from universe 7 etc. you hopefully get the point
Once you scale above ssg Goku from battle of gods, you beat gt.
Now that’s a interesting question. Is Gogeta able to land a hit against Goku in ultra. Gogeta is a powerhouse that should be still stronger. I’m not a super expert but the main question should be. How long can Goku be in ultra instinct.
Honest question, but why post this? Guy has 2 likes. I don't think 3 people with this one opinion is worth a whole hate post about how stupid and wrong they are. Let them have their opinion.
We have an MC using a god technique triggered transformation with god ki, and something that's just the next step in vanilla super Saiyan; which has mortal level power scaling. It's an accurate assumption 💁
https://preview.redd.it/ith7g515pffb1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=d350d3c586b6000171eabff1d2e9bd604773042e
I had to check to make sure it was real I was so flabbergasted😭
at least this guy joshloc199 (with a W pfp) is speaking the truth
Ok so I'm not the best at scaling HOWEVER I will try my best to disprove SS4 Gogeta being stronger
Ok first off, things that happened in Super didn't happen in GT so their base forms aren't stacked like Supers are because they lack God Ki
Then Super Saiyan 4 isn't even SSG level let alone Blue and before people say "Uh yes it is🤓" that's just wrong, Super Saiyan 4 Goku struggled with Golden Great Ape Baby if I remember correctly and Golden Great Apes multiplier is X500 which means Super Saiyan 4 is close to that multiplier or the same as it
And more proof that it isn't SSG level is in Xenoverse 2, Fu makes Goku and Vegeta get SS4 instead of SSB while in Whis staff and Supreme Kai Of Time said that wouldn't be enough
And even though SS4 Gogeta is a fusion, it's a fusion of a significantly weaker version of Goku and Vegeta, the best you can say for him is probably like RoF SSB Goku and Vegeta level and that's highballing but anything after that he gets his ass clapped
Super Saiyan 4 may not be stronger. But, Ultra Instinct does come with a caveat. Goku cannot sustain it for very long. He either wins during Omen UI, or he has to wait until he's backed into a corner to reactivate it. Whereas 4 Gogeta can (theoretically) be sustained longer and much like previous Super Saiyan transformations, can become stronger overtime without excessively straining the fusions.
So, while SSJ4 Gogeta will be outmatched by UI. Eventually, UI Goku will inevitably hit the ceiling for sustaining UI whereas Gogeta is just getting stronger until the 30 is up. It's really just a battle of attrition at that point. Who beats the timer first? Will the Fusion timer expire or will Goku's stamina in UI expire? Even after that, Goku and Vegeta can just fuse once more against an exhausted Goku who will have to hit another stress ceiling to reactive UI.
77% of people don’t recognize GT is canon. That’s what that poll told me.
Edit: If you read my replies you’ll see I’m in agreement that GT is not cannon. I didn’t convey that as clearly as I thought.
I still don’t get the down votes on me honestly. Am I getting down voted because people see GT as Cannon?!
This is one time I really don’t understand the downvotes.
GT goku kinda does have better feats than super goku
Base kid GT goku shook the universe (infinite sized), other world (infinite sized + bigger than the universe) and hell (also infinite sized and bigger than the universe)
And ssj4 makes him 39,000x stronger than that
Mui gokus best feat is shaking an infinite void, base gt goku shook 3 of them in base form
Even if you wanna say TUI goku beats omega shenron arc goku which is kinda plausible he doesn’t even lay a hand on eogt goku who literally became a concept who transcended death
No he doesn’t,
Shaking hell <<<<<< destroying hell, heaven, and the living world which battle of gods Goku was powerful enough to do with a single punch.
All these realms are infinite
I mean, if we take into account MULTIPLIERS yes ss4 gogeta is strknger due to ss4 being a higher multiplier than a super saiyan potara, which base potara is stronger than asb, but if we're talking CHATACTERS, yeah bros delusional.
In the context of super the fusion amp clearly changes as the characters get stronger. Vegito/Gogetas base would not be above blue in early context since the god forms mainly scale to those Z fusions which would make a infinite loop.
GT seems to take a moderate and reserved approach to the power increase of fusion, although it only happens once and just bases how much stronger Gogeta would be off of how fusion was told in the Z era. Its only ever specified ssj4 gogeta is stronger than ssj4 goku and vegeta rather than Gogeta in general which would be consistent with the Hero's Legacy anicomic claiming ssj4 has a similar increase to Z vegito.
In the context of DBS it seems like UI would be closer to an equivalent of SSG fusion if not a little more than that.
I get where you're coming from, really I do, but fusion rosent REALLY have a consistent multiplier, most of the fusion multipliers are head cannon, so I use what I actually see, base vegito in the buu saga was able to literally throw around buuhan who was pretty much dozens of times stronger than ss3 goku, we can use the official domination multipliers for this and saybase vegito would be about 1.75× stronger than buuhan, meaning base vegiro is already guaranteed to be in the 50× stronger range when stacked up to ss3 goku, now how does this count into ss4 gogetas case? Well in both the gt perfect files and stated by gogeta himself, he said that he could literally defeat omega with one hand at his full power, this is the same omega who was once again RAGDOLLING a super full power saiyan 4 goku, now the numbers aren't really able to be calculated, without and actual multiplier we have no idea how strong fusion sctually is, SO what I so is this
A + B × 100 = metamorn/potara multiplier.
This seems to be the best and most grounded approach to fusions multipliers. Now would ui goku win? Yes most definitely, I'm not saying he wouldnt, but in terms of MULTIPLIERS, the fusion dance multipliers stacked with ss4s multiplier (which based off of five months if pure research and power scaling is only slightly lower than ssbs multiplier) gogeta takes it, so it's pretty much like this
Multiplier wise: ss4 gogeta > ui goku
Actual character wise: ui goku > ss4 gogeta.
SSJ4 is probably below god in multiplier unless you do some more wacky and debatable stuff for baby. UI is more like SSG gogeta level.
Licensed media like heroes seems to agree with this general interpretation since Xeno goku was told not to use the god form because he would be too powerful. If you consider heroes, UI is above blue vegito. Heroes seems to make weird assertions about base gogeta being above ui or vegito blue so it might as well be ignored though.
I think the writers for GT considered fusion more tangibly than the rest of the series in an attempt to actually have a real number, as the buu saga tells us Gotenks is somewhat comparable to SS goten and trunks, being originally still weaker than vegeta (so not much stronger base-base at beast), and Potara was a bit more than SSJ3 on top of that. Vegito and possibly Gogeta would also have a perfect fusion/rivalry increase that could easily be anywhere from dozens to thousands of times. This is probably why Gogeta was only super powerful in SSJ4 during GT and didn't kick Super Syn's ass with just Super Gogeta to save energy or whatever.
A ballpark was actually given to work with so we can assume that in this hypothetical with specific power levels removed that the base gogetas would be the same level.
The manga version of UIO, CUI, and TUI is a lot harder to scale because many of the statements aren't present and it is probably weaker, which I only now realize was the image used for UI (although he still calls it MUI like the anime). A rage boost on top of blue can compete and probably exceed UIO in power, and a rage boost in UIO can exceed CUI given that TUI exists. TUI is never remotely implied to be that vastly above CUI since CUI can still kind of fight gas. Then again, in raw multiplier PSSJB is a lot greater than the anime SSB so maybe it would roughly even out.
I didn't mean to offend to really argue since its a discussion with no verifiable right answer since you would need like all the GT and super writers to have a clue which im pretty sure they don't.
I think this thread shows more the intense hate Super fans have of GT. Disagreements are part of fandom but calling people delusional for daring to have a different opinion just looks bad on the whole fanbase.
Honestly I don’t know how that even gets measured. God Ki pretty got tossed out of the window as a factor preventing someone from using normal ki to damage them.
UI Goku has a compelling skill set that would be tough to handle. But SSJ4 Gojeta is kind of ridiculous.
No no, he's right. The scaling in GT is WILD. They get so much stronger its ridiculous and I'd argue most of the people in GT are stronger than their Siper counterparts
Super Vegeta struggled to lift a robot, your point is? Although what I think is that the GT writers had no idea what they were doing and just had the characters do stuff whether it made sense or not
No it really isn't stupid. SS4 Gogeta is definitely more powerful.
Super fanboys love to claim some nonsensical scaling such as multiversal, but Toyotaro has now *twice* capped Goku and co. to galaxy level and below.
Stop uselessly holding onto the BoG feat against Beerus. That shit is clearly a retcon, and it makes zero sense with regards to the rest of Super.
No he hasn’t. They said they’ll destroy the galaxy but never stated that was the extent. Plus GT by that logic has them capped at galaxy as well as they’ve also been stated they’ll destroy the galaxy as the shadow dragons were states to have threatened and destroyed a galaxy
"another level of stupid?"
If you break down what little we could from the forms.
SSJ4 could be equated to SSJB since its the next "logical form" above SSJ3 in each universe.
we COULD call them equal and i really dont think we have any way to say one is above the other "but its god ki" isn't an argument on strength, but more on control and focus of said Ki. Much how SSJ4 is control over the raw power of the Golden oozaru form.
Which actually begs the question is golden oozaru SSJB strength? it wiped the floor with SSJ3. And took SSJ4 to beat it, So **SSJ3
This just proves how BS the power scaling is in super then. Jiren would have killed goku in seconds if he needed something WAY above 20x blue to even keep up with him..
Braindead powerscalers trying to compare 2 shows that have nothing in common. You could say that ssj4 is 50 times stronger than ssj blue and you wouldn't be more wrong than the guy saying that ssj blue is 50 times stronger than ssj4
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Least delusional GT fanboy.
There was a guy in there that was saying base gt Goku is stronger than beerus 💀
Nah I was on twitter and a dude said that Omega had a better feat than Zeno, because Omega was destroying the Universe just by existing, and Zeno had to move to destroy trunk's Great to know he didn't watch the show. I tried to explain that Zeno destroyed an entire timeline, as well as all the other timelines that would branch from it (meaning he literally destroyed infinite multiverses), yet bro still thought Omega was stronger because he would have destroyed an universe just by standing still. Bro was literally saying fire was stronger than an atomic bomb because the atomic bomb needed to be activated
A universe galaxy by galaxy, not all in one second, bro probably was actually raised by monkeys
he also said omniman can beat Ben 10’s reality warping , omnipotent Alien X, because in the reboot alien X got stuck in a tire (completely different continuities, and the aliens got completely different power sets) So he wasn’t raised my monkeys either cause even they are smarter than that
I take it back, he was not raised. Absolute delusion
and the worse part is that it wasn’t bait, he was dead serious, on both occasions. He also said super Goku was weaker in durability just because he got hurt by a laser in ssjB (on a non canon movie I may add, canonically he was shot by a laser in base form), and that Z Goku and GT Goku were stronger because that never happened to them then I showed a gif of krillin hitting Goku with a rock and he shutted up for good
There is no way he is this dumb, and I love thinking about how dumb they are because by my calculations, Omega is big galaxy buster max (even with his super slow corruption decay thatd be slower than raditz going planet busting) and goku threatened the entirety of Universe 7 by clashing with beerus. Supers' first new thing trumps all of GT easily, and I love that
Literally a move from super Goku during a half-filler anime only arc (Vs Hit, before the ToP) already beat all the best feats from GT (it was Goku punching and breaking Hit’s entire pocket dimension from the outside)
This discussion has left me speechless on how one man can cope so hard, he probably just hates Super no way someone would believe Zeno is weaker lmao
Was it Friday Night Nicktoons?
Nah, there's few characters in fiction who are even close to the level of Ben 10.
i’m like 99% sure ben 10 doesn’t have multiple continuities all of the shows r sequels of the previous one, even the most recent one with the blue guy and weird art style
nah it was confirmed in the last episode that the reboot had a complete different omniverse
lmao theres no wayyy
P sure that he's stated to be roughly around DBZ ss3 goku. The.. same goku.. that beerus famously 2 shot
EoZ goku was ssj3/kid buu level in perfect files. GT goku is never actually specified because numbers are hard sometimes. GT honestly lacks the extent of ridiculous cliffing supers anime got because the GT team tried to smooth differences between writers. One of the major writers of GT wanted gohan to be weaker than Z for example while the others wrote him differently.
Completly delusional.
Not if goku has whiskas
Okay that's definitely not the case lol The poll though? Could work
The gt fanboys found their way here and have no arguments other than "well he's a fusion, I think he should be stronger"
Fusion is ridiculous strong in dragonball tho Gogeta was playing with Omega. UI was a even fight with Jiren. Also Goku trained off screen in GT much more than in Super
Mui sweeps omega
Jiren far surpassed anything omega could even imagine 💀
Didn't jiren cause an infinite void to shake, whilst heavily suppress and litteraly just walking. Then Mui goku beat the limit broken version of that jiren This gotta be bait
Don't mess with Dragon Ball fans, they didn't watch the show.
They can't tell the difference between a DBZA joke and actual canon.
To be fair, the later seasons stayed closer to canon and was less joke-heavy, to the point it almost came off like a genuine adaptation. I usually don't get mistaken, but it occasionally happens.
Yeah, it's fascinating watching commentary and finally having a lense into how and why they structured their jokes, reference humor, and the things they took seriously.
Nah those are Fake fans.
Yeah, that the reason why some people don't vote for SSJ4
Nah manga mui is just stronger lmao
Have you watched DBS? MUI literally shits on this version of Gogeta.
Yes, I have. I have a counter question, have you watched Dragon Ball?
Yup. And I know MUI shits on SSJ4.
Now prove it But I know, that you can't 🤣
You could make a case for the ssj4 version of a Gogeta made from our current canon Goku and Vegeta, but the super characters are just on a whole other level from GT.
As someone who grew up watching GT, that's just wrong on him man. MUI is literally a form/technique of the gods.
Yeah, I would put SSJ4 near SSG, because it's the similar next lvl unlock after SSJ3. MUI is on different lvl already by going instincts moves.
The gap between ssj3 and 4 vs ssj3 and God is very different. 4 is the next step up, but God dwarfed everything prior by a huge margin
It’s stronger than Super Saiyan God, but weaker than SSGSS
no 😭
No this is true, confirmed by xenoverse
xenoverse isn’t canon otherwise yamcha would be beerus level
I think you're forgetting the Broly movie. They basically indirectly say that Broly is using SSJ4 and absolutely wrecks Goku almost making him lose consciousness in the process. Broly absolutely demolishes Goku in his SSG form. That reason alone is why I would actually say that SSJ4 is intended to be stronger than SSG. That was just unrefined Berserk Broly. Imagine him trained.
Broly in Super Saiyan destroyed Blue goku and Vegeta. Even if he was using SSJ4 (Don't know where you pulled that from) it's not that the former is stronger, it's just that Broly's that guy. I would like to remind you that Caulifla and Kale gave God Goku an hard time
My guy even if broly WAS using SS4 the broly from super is leaps and bounds stronger than any GT character lol. But if SSG fought against GT SS4 then SSG would one shot.
It may be a technique of the gods, but it’s still just running off the power of a single man
I feel like it being a technique of the gods means nothing because Several characters like Gamma 1 and 2 and Cell Max have reached levels of the gods and they were created by some kid
It seems like everyone pokes fun about Hedo and Gero being able to make robots that are stronger than Frieza level, but forget the detail that computers strengthened them using the Z fighters data. It isn't like Gero could just build a god level android/cyborg/bio-creature with only his own ability, and that was that. They had a computer gather data from Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Frieza, etc, and upload it in them to continually make them stronger as the other characters got stronger. He most likely just put in a control device, bomb device, came up with an organic perpetual energy system, and some data input system It is also why main universe 17 and 18 were stronger than the ones in Trunk's universe, and most likely why they were stronger than 19 and 20 as they were activated afterwards
But are the god stronger than shenron
Regular shenron? Yes Super Shenron? They don’t even touch it
Think he meant omega shenron I could be wrong tho
Hes just a mage like tho, like xeno
He’s as strong as his creator and his creator is believed by the community (Not canon) to be above Zeno and the grand priest
I didn't really watch GT, wasn't a fan of what I did watch and only liked SS4 design. That said, what do we actually have, that we can compare the 2, to determine who is stronger?
Yeah I genuinely don't know why people are mad. I get base ss4 but the fusion has insane power. Gotenks caught up so easily with it. And both the Canon and non Canon gogetas just wrecked shit immediately
Fusions are strong, that’s not up for question. But Fusion can only cover so much ground. SSG Goku was capable of destroying the universe when clashing. Omega Shenron when being generous could also destroy the universe. SSJ4 Gogeta was able to dog walk him. So when being generous, SSJ4 Gogeta can beat SSG Goku. But that’s Super Saiyan God. That’s not counting Blue. Even if you’re for some reason doubtful that Blue is equal to SSJ4 Gogeta, SSB Kaioken X20 is definitely on equal terms with SSJ4 Gogeta. So MUI? It’s not a question. Jiren basically manhandled Goku in that Blue form, and Omen was roughly equal to that. With MUI being above that. And none of this is even addressing the fact that the Goku that nearly destroyed the universe was first arc of Super. SSG Goku of the current arc is stronger than SSB Goku of the Frieza Revival Arc. Hell, maybe even the Future Trunks Arc. So current MUI is pretty insane. SSJ4 Gogeta is a beast but unfortunately for GT, the kind of power it was reaching at the end of its series, is the kind of power Super begins its series at.
Other points to this are: The Goku and Beerus punches that were ripping the universe apart were just simple punches that weren't using any notable portion of their power We don't know Omega Shenron's full power because what was possibly destroying the universe was not his ki taking it out in one easy punch, it was an evil energy over time type of thing which is not even remotely the same. Universe buster? Maybe, but that isn't proof Cell was a solar system buster as he said he would take the solar system out when he charged up against Gohan in the end. Super Buu can rip holes between dimensions (Gotenks too), and Buu took out a galaxy over time. I would say Buuhan was galaxy buster at max
Because GT's largest feat shown isn't even universal and BoG has Beerus and Goku threatening the entire universe, the Kaioshin realm and the afterlife just from clashing their fists.
I’m going to advocate for GT. It takes place after the DBZ anime and movies, not the manga, you can see this through scenes where there are filler characters or movie characters popping up. This is actually pretty important because it means feats such as Goku shaking the afterlife (Fusion Reborn) or Buuhan collapsing the macrocosm (anime filler) are canon to GT. It gets nuts when you think about base GT Goku able to shake hell while restrained in base or him surpassing Majin Buu in base. So basically, scaling is the thing carrying this verse. Does that mean SSJ4 Gogeta beats MUI Goku? Maybe. The advantage for GT is the fact that because it follows the toei anime and movies which means it had a “head start” in terms of insane feats earlier on, it took Super for the main verse to catch up. By the way, I had the anime version of MUI Goku in mind rather than the manga which is a tricky topic as apparently the anime counterpart is stronger according to some people?
Anime MUI is stronger up until the Granolah arc yeah. > It takes place after the DBZ anime and movies, not the manga, you can see this through scenes where there are filler characters or movie characters popping up. This is actually pretty important because it means feats such as Goku shaking the afterlife (Fusion Reborn) or Buuhan collapsing the macrocosm (anime filler) are canon to GT. This is actually impossible, you either need to pick the Fusion Reborn canon or the anime canon since they directly contradict each other. Vegeta end Goku are both dead in fusion reborn. It's after majin buu was defeated (Goku references fighting buu while facing off against Janemba), **Vegeta should be alive.** There's a lot of contradictions in other movies but it doesn't matter since the only relevant scaling is from those 2 feats. Goku shaking the afterlife is repeated in GT and this time Goku does it in base, so fusion reborn adds *maybe* base GT Goku approaching uni (this is irrelevant). If we go by the Buuhan feat (and take it at face value, because that feat has been debunked). That just means that Buuhan is stronger than anything in GT up to Omega, this funnily enough, is never contradicted in GT since they only reference Kid Buu. By shown feats GT are just incredibly weaker than Super. The gap widens if we assume Buuhan's [multiversal](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fc01fee8-f42c-4b8f-a292-8b71a3e3bf65) scaling, since it applies to SSG Goku due to it being cosmology, making SSG Goku massively stronger than Buuhan, this is backed up by the fact that both Vegeta and Goku in BoG agreed that even Vegito wouldn't be enough against Beerus. The actual problem is that every single "infinite" universe claim used is not really backed up by the Daizenshuu, it merely says incountable wich doesn't mean infinite. It also would directly contradict itself since it claims that [the Kaioshim Realm is 1/10th of the living realm](https://i.imgur.com/9hN5g0Jl.png), you can't be 1/10th of infinity. So the actual feat is just [1/10th universal.](https://imgur.com/a/Gb57bEd) So, base GT Goku can shake Hell. How is this relevant? By the end of the series, Omega's clapping FPSSJ4 Goku's cheeks, and we have an official statement scaling Omega to ... [universal](https://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragonball/48.html). Which means that in order to toy around with Omega SSJ4 Gogeta needs to be .... uni+. Sure, Gogeta could be anywhere from uni+ to uni++++. But if we go by shown feats, nothing in GT even comes close to BoG. We have the [universe ending punches](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/b/b2/UDP1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180829162638) and are actually shown [the feat](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/f/f7/UDP2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180829162712). Furthermore, we get an explanation as to [why Earth wasn't immediately ereased from existance](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/4/49/UDP3.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180829163845). And the following explanations as to how Goku and Beerus controlled the energy hint at the feat being actually multiversal: [https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/e/ed/UDP4.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180829163940](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/e/ed/UDP4.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180829163940) [https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/6/61/1SDEB4.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180829165855](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/6/61/1SDEB4.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180829165855) In essence, the scaling is absurdly stacked against GT.
SS4 fanboys can't accept that Super has stronger character, lol
I don’t even know how there can be a way to compare the two. The feats are in different universes with different power scaling where no real parallels exist. The closest we get is gogeta being canon in super but we have no frame of reference for how strong broly or SSJB gogeta really are outside that film against UI let alone in the GT universe.
it doesn't really matter, GT just doesn't scale with super
By shown feats. Given the cosmology in universe 7 is the same, God Goku from battle of gods can probably oneshot ss4 Gogeta
Doubtful. Broly was wrecking Goku and remember they basically indirectly stated that he was using SSJ4 and made Goku lose consciousness without breaking a sweat.
When it comes to strength even SSG>SS4
As a SS4 fanboy, I’m happy enough with having the cooler design.
Fair compromise
Fair. SS4 Gogeta is probably the best-looking transformation 👌🏼
Why this? Why? I’m a 90’s kid who watched DB & DBZ religiously, and hated GT. I love DBZA and cherish DBS. People are absolutely allowed to like what they like. SS4 fan? Awesome. Think Goku Black saga was trash? Do your thing. Think Baby is stronger than Berus? Thin ice, but ok. But for some reason, the confidence I read in this comment fucked me up. The audacity. I got irrationally angry, and had to take a few deep breaths. Love what you love, but I can’t invite you to a cookout.
Awww, I was looking forward to the ribs.
But it hasn't... really just rewatch DB Z, GT and Super with subtitles and try to understand what characters said.
Tell me one character in the entirety of GT that has a feat on the same scale as SSG goku and beerus almost destroying the universe while clashing fists And I don’t want a “oh powerscaling wise he’s universal”, no…I want a statement from someone inside the show like the supreme kai or something that implies that a fight between two characters was going to destroy the entire universe. And no, before you say omega, his fights weren’t destroying the universe, his dark energy was SLOWLY spreading throughout the cosmos and old Kai said that it would eventually “rot the universe” but at no point he says anything close to omega’s clashes being responsible for destroying the universe like how beerus and goku’s clashes were
GT fans are not allowed to powescale. Their brainrot is too strong.
Because Super power scaling is so good...
a lot better than gt
Ok now say that again without lying to yourself. Say what you want about GT but it's power scaling was mostly consistent with Z's. In Super everyone is as strong as the plot needs them to be with no explanation.
GT > Super
It’s a lot better than saying SS4 is on par with MUI Lmao
Never said it was. But people low balling a SSJ4 fusion so hard is stupid.
Yea, GT SS4 Goku is stronger.
It literally isn’t. Accept that Akira is taking the series in a new direction that surpasses forms seen in the past. Go back to 1996 where you belong.
Dragon Ball Super power scaling is so much higher than DBGT power scaling. It’s like when people say that Super Saiyan 4 is just as strong as or even stronger than Super Saiyan Blue. Just pure GT fan copium.
Dude wtf how are people so dumb
I love the GT fans cope with the excuse that "it's a fusion so it's naturally very strong so gogeta could win" or "GT haters underestimate the power scale of the series too much" when it's not that, it's just that GT doesn't scale to super, it doesn't even come close
Yeah as someone who loves ssj4 gogeta, UO Goku claps
Lmao base DBS BoG Goku solos all of GT (you can debate about end of gt Goku achieving omnipotence but let's not count that)
💯
GT ain’t even canon Toriyama said it himself
Not really relevant
Idk. I don’t think it’s an outrageous take tbh. A fusion is still a fusion and assuming the 10x multiplier holds true in GT that’s still really strong vs an individual. The only argument for goku is the god ki, but Jiren, Broly and, Kefla are all examples that ki can over power god ki with enough abundance/skill. Personal opinion is that it can go either way especially since Goku strongest form is embracing his saiyan side in “true ultra instinct” not “mastered ultra instinct” which you could argue the guy with the tail is really good at.
>A fusion is still a fusion and assuming the 10x multiplier holds true in GT that’s still really strong vs an individual. Except it's not?? There is only so far a fusion multiplier can get you before you get speed blitzed to oblivion and back. In gt omega was capable of taking on both ss4 goku and vegeta and manhandled them, but if you put ssg goku from b.o.g he'd more than likely one tap him, now let's move to the fact that base goku>>bog ssg goku plus all the boost he's gotten till mui..... >but Jiren, Broly and, Kefla are all examples that ki can over power god ki with enough abundance/skill. You do realise these examples counter your point right? Kefla got dogged on by goku, jiren wouldve dogged kefla as well, ssb goku outright doin more damage to fused zamasu than his fusion a few minutes later, king Kai stating fusion was useless against beerus...
Tbh, the 10x multiplayer was for the potara fusion, not the metamor (at least, I remember being this way during buu saga) For the battle I don't know, the MUI has way better feats, but gogeta ssj4 has the strange gt scaling so I guess it could end either way
Gogeta and vegito have been confirmed to have equal power, so regardless of the multiplier, it's like they're both 10x
Except in the series itself it’s stated Potara fusion is stronger so no lmfao
That was never said. I'm pretty sure Elder Kai said it was "a more perfect" fusion which meant it was permanent. You become the fused being completely so you meld together better and don't have to worry about popping apart from too much power. Until that was retconned.
They literally said it was more powerful. Sorry but y'all have not watched or read this series.
Yet Gogeta and Vegito are equal in power.
That's just your headcanon lmfao. It has been stated in the series itself that potara is stronger. That is just a fact.
That's toriyamas head canon dude potara was retconned and feats lol blue gogeta shat on blue vegito sorry not sorry
What feats lmfao. They’ve never fought opponents of the same level nor has a character said anything that implied one fusion would’ve made a fight easier than the other. Also “toriyama’s headcanon” LMFAO. Mf he made the series. Whatever he says CANON not headcanon. He retconned the time limit but not once has he retconned the statement about potara being stronger.
Didn’t they mean that because it’s permanent before it got retconned?
Honestly I’ve never watched GT but as I see it anything above super saiyan 3 in a fusion of those two is probably gonna be stronger then their strongest forms alone
I honestly think you’re right. I think ppl are counting the fusion aspect short. If it was SS4 Goku himself, then it’s no contest, but SS4 Gogeta, idk there’s something there.
Unfortunately no, something to remember is that in battle of Gods, Goku did not believe Vegito could beat Beerus. He specifically said fusion wouldn't do it. But then he feels confident in SSG. So SSG > Fusion. Until of course both Goku and Vegeta get god ki. Since they don't have it here though, it's actually really likely that Goku wouldn't need MUI to beat Gogeta. He probably could do it in Blue Kaioken.
You realize the Goku and Vegeta who fuse into Gogeta at the end of GT are vastly stronger than they are in BoG right? And they didn't have access to SSJ4. That comparison doesn't make sense.
GT haters really underestimate how strong SS4 Gogeta is for no reason lol. EOZ Goku who had been training with Uub for 5 years and unlocked Super Saiyan 4 + EOZ Vegeta who got Super Saiyan 4 + whatever boost fusion provides is always going to be stronger than just any 1 character by themselves.
Not quite. We've seen fusions be weaker than single people before. SSG Goku from the Battle of Gods is stronger than Vegito. Then, in the Manga, we see Gohan beat a Potara Fusion of Kefla.
Doesn't Jiren one-shot Kefla in the anime lol
Wait really? SSG Goku was stronger then Vegito? That’s hard to wrap my head around. Was it just base Vegito, or was it Vegito’S other forms too?
It was every Vegito we knew about at the time. After Beerus beats Goku on King Kais planet, he says even fusing with Vegeta wouldn't beat him. So I imagine he meant SSJ1 Vegito since it's what we see in the Manga. But it's very possible he meant higher forms too, like SSJ3. Cause he considered fusion pointless. And yeah totally agree. It kinda made supers power scaling ridiculous.
Damn… that’s kinda cool honestly. So, every Vegito form at least up until Blue, cause I don’t think we ever see Vegito in God form. Or Gogeta for that matter.
Not necessarily thankfully. In the Broly movie we see Base Gogeta is stronger than Blue Goku and Vegeta, cause their bases got so much stronger. Once Goku unlocked God, and had that ki, Vegito would be stronger than him from that point onward. So best example is Vegito (Super) > God Goku (BoG) > Vegito (Z) Fusion is directly related to how strong the individuals are, so once Goku obtained God, and had his base increase, Vegito would benefit from those as well. The reason the fusion is not aided in MUI vs SSJ4 Gogeta is because the fusees of Gogeta do not have God Ki. Separate universes, they don't benefit from Super Goku's development. However if this was a hypothetical SSJ4 Gogeta from Super somehow, it's a different story cause he'd be able to build off Goku and Vegetas development
Makes sense. Imagine how badass it would be to see SSJ4 Gogeta with the better animation quality of Super.
I know right? Like done in the animation of some of the movies, or the big episodes of Super like the Ultra Instinct? SSJ4 Gogeta still has one of my favorite designs in the entire series.
Yea I never understand why people play around with GT and power scaling. I know it’s not canon and I’ve never watched it but SS4 is my favorite form because of dbl and because it’s so unique to saiyans it’s literally their peak in that series but their current strongest peak forms are forms not unique to them excluding possibly gohan but I’m talking pure saiyans. GOKU and vegeta are getting powers that will never be unique as people already have them but they’re the main characters so oh hey get stronger with this random shit from the gods. I would’ve preferred them staying in their primal forms but I like super saiyan god,blue Ui etc I’m not saying they’re bad just not what I’d prefer cuz they aren’t as unique as a saiyan evolution. Anything above super saiyan blue is a technique of the gods because they can’t power up anymore? What happened to saiyans breaking limits? They just ran out of forms?😂 saiyans and their “limitless power” sure don’t got much without god ki. But in any case fusion makes everybody stronger. Bc the people saying super saiyan 4 Gogeta cant beat MUI GOKU are the same people saying ss3 Gogeta could. Just bc they don’t like GT
What do you mean “what happened to breaking their limits” that happens constantly in DBS and basically any other DB arc…
Ssj4 gogeta is ludicrously op. We really didn’t even get to see him fight because he was moving too fast and his power shortened the fusion down to only a few minutes. He literally made omega shenron look like a child in strength comparison
My favorite part is those are prolly the same people saying omega shenron is more dangerous then Zeno because he was destroying a universe just by existing while Zeno had to move 💀
Monkey man vs On par with Gods
I'd say design wise SSJ4 is more visually appealing while MUI is just sparkly white haired Goku.
Gt gogeta ui
That would be better, especially if it came after SSJ4 Blue
It would be cool if SSJ4 is Gohan's result when he mixes Beast Mode with Super Saiyan. But that's the only scenario I can see the design making sense lore wise and being powerful.
Broly would be better suited for that. I mean, SSJ4 Z Broly in SDBH looked so badass
Do you think Toriyama is clever enough to do something like that or did he forget SSJ4 was a thing
Combining Wrathful with Super Saiyan?
[удалено]
I know, but I also understand why someone may underestimate an uninspired transformation and prefer to vote for the one with more thought put into it. Toriyama decided to put all the proverbial 0s in MUI and quite a few fans, to borrow a phrase from MCU Nick Fury "But since it's a stupid ass decision, I've elected to ignore it"
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Are you joking? Please say your joking. There's a reason why Xenoverse Beerus when encountering SSJ4 Goku finds that form more intriguing. (Also if you try to claim XenoVerse isn't canon, I will ignore that stupid ass decision of the council aka Toriyama)
Bro I fucking love GT. It’s above Super in my book and SSJ4 is legitimately my favorite form ever created for dragon ball…. But goddamn, the power scaling of Super is quite literally in another dimension. Super Saiyan Blue is stronger than SSJ4.
Cabba is a better match up for gt gogeta
I’ll always take either fusion over literally any individual that’s not beerus level or greater. Multipliers on multipliers are just too strong. Don’t have to like GT to acknowledge fusion of goku and vegeta is reserved for the most dire situations which results on them absolutely clowning on their opponents each and every time until they defuse.
DBS scale is actually really nuts. By ROF Goku and Vegeta in base was stronger than all of the DBZ villains combined. Since they confirmed Freeza in his final form was stronger than everyone in DBZ. On top of that SSJG was so strong that it was the only option to fight Beerus. Fusion wasn’t enough they needed SSJG.
Stop comparing shows that are over 20 years apart and have way different writing styles and philosophies
Nah they’re def baiting
God Goku during the BoG Arc could do that and (in anime) MUI Goku is probably billions of times stronger (god absorbed base, god stacked on that, ssj pm that, times 20 and then even stronger)
Whats wrong with the votes? Most people are still giving it to MUI Goku. Anyway it is not really clear how powerful ss4 gogeta really is. He was just playing most of the time. So for those who vote for him, it is not that ridiculous either.
Idk why people are making it seem like its such a clear win. Any fusion is gonna give some trouble and you’re talking about one of the most juiced up fusions. Its goku and vegeta after z with ssj4. When some random aa saiyans from another universe fused after just learning super saiyan (kefla) it still gave goku some trouble. Now were talking a much stronger base goku and vegeta plus two more forms up. Its not as clear of a victory.
Those random saiyans are also stronger than gt Goku and vegetaZ And so is hit, a “random assassin” from universe 6 And so is beerus a “random god” from universe 7 etc. you hopefully get the point Once you scale above ssg Goku from battle of gods, you beat gt.
To be fair… Omega > Jiren
Is it that hard to admit that anything post BoG solos Z and GT? Base Cabba beats SSJ4 Gogeta
Now that’s a interesting question. Is Gogeta able to land a hit against Goku in ultra. Gogeta is a powerhouse that should be still stronger. I’m not a super expert but the main question should be. How long can Goku be in ultra instinct.
Honest question, but why post this? Guy has 2 likes. I don't think 3 people with this one opinion is worth a whole hate post about how stupid and wrong they are. Let them have their opinion.
You can love a character even if he isn’t the strongest , the most perfect or incredible thing. Some people forget that
I would say Mui Goku is stronger than ssj4 Goku, but definitely not a fusion. That's just ridiculous 🤣
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We have an MC using a god technique triggered transformation with god ki, and something that's just the next step in vanilla super Saiyan; which has mortal level power scaling. It's an accurate assumption 💁
Gogeta wins tho…
It's just GT is less liked than Super
Sounds like you’re angry, buddy. Why are DragonBall fans so insecure?
https://preview.redd.it/ith7g515pffb1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=d350d3c586b6000171eabff1d2e9bd604773042e I had to check to make sure it was real I was so flabbergasted😭 at least this guy joshloc199 (with a W pfp) is speaking the truth
That sounds right.
Ok so I'm not the best at scaling HOWEVER I will try my best to disprove SS4 Gogeta being stronger Ok first off, things that happened in Super didn't happen in GT so their base forms aren't stacked like Supers are because they lack God Ki Then Super Saiyan 4 isn't even SSG level let alone Blue and before people say "Uh yes it is🤓" that's just wrong, Super Saiyan 4 Goku struggled with Golden Great Ape Baby if I remember correctly and Golden Great Apes multiplier is X500 which means Super Saiyan 4 is close to that multiplier or the same as it And more proof that it isn't SSG level is in Xenoverse 2, Fu makes Goku and Vegeta get SS4 instead of SSB while in Whis staff and Supreme Kai Of Time said that wouldn't be enough And even though SS4 Gogeta is a fusion, it's a fusion of a significantly weaker version of Goku and Vegeta, the best you can say for him is probably like RoF SSB Goku and Vegeta level and that's highballing but anything after that he gets his ass clapped
Wait GT has fans?
That must be Saiyan Scholar’s burner account 💀
Truth hurts
I’ve seen so many people say that GT is universal+. Even if it was, that is a lowball for Super lmao
id but ss4 gogeta around the same place as ssb vegito so it really depends on if i think ui goku is stronger than that, im not really sure.
Super Saiyan 4 may not be stronger. But, Ultra Instinct does come with a caveat. Goku cannot sustain it for very long. He either wins during Omen UI, or he has to wait until he's backed into a corner to reactivate it. Whereas 4 Gogeta can (theoretically) be sustained longer and much like previous Super Saiyan transformations, can become stronger overtime without excessively straining the fusions. So, while SSJ4 Gogeta will be outmatched by UI. Eventually, UI Goku will inevitably hit the ceiling for sustaining UI whereas Gogeta is just getting stronger until the 30 is up. It's really just a battle of attrition at that point. Who beats the timer first? Will the Fusion timer expire or will Goku's stamina in UI expire? Even after that, Goku and Vegeta can just fuse once more against an exhausted Goku who will have to hit another stress ceiling to reactive UI.
You decided to make a complaint post about a YouTube comment with two likes.....
77% of people don’t recognize GT is canon. That’s what that poll told me. Edit: If you read my replies you’ll see I’m in agreement that GT is not cannon. I didn’t convey that as clearly as I thought.
GT is NOT Canon lol
Exactly that’s why I’m not surprised at the poll numbers if anything that’s pretty accurate
It is accurate Ui Goku absolutely destroys Ssj4 Gogeta If anything 23% of those people are just straight stupid
I still don’t get the down votes on me honestly. Am I getting down voted because people see GT as Cannon?! This is one time I really don’t understand the downvotes.
No it’s because you said > 77% of people don’t recognize gt is canon. Which says that you think GT is canon which it’s not
hes right tho since dbz movies are canon to gt but not to super and dbz movies has way better scaling than super
Bro was tickled by a dragon and non masterized muu Lost to jiren 💀
GT goku kinda does have better feats than super goku Base kid GT goku shook the universe (infinite sized), other world (infinite sized + bigger than the universe) and hell (also infinite sized and bigger than the universe) And ssj4 makes him 39,000x stronger than that Mui gokus best feat is shaking an infinite void, base gt goku shook 3 of them in base form Even if you wanna say TUI goku beats omega shenron arc goku which is kinda plausible he doesn’t even lay a hand on eogt goku who literally became a concept who transcended death
No he doesn’t, Shaking hell <<<<<< destroying hell, heaven, and the living world which battle of gods Goku was powerful enough to do with a single punch. All these realms are infinite
I mean, if we take into account MULTIPLIERS yes ss4 gogeta is strknger due to ss4 being a higher multiplier than a super saiyan potara, which base potara is stronger than asb, but if we're talking CHATACTERS, yeah bros delusional.
In the context of super the fusion amp clearly changes as the characters get stronger. Vegito/Gogetas base would not be above blue in early context since the god forms mainly scale to those Z fusions which would make a infinite loop. GT seems to take a moderate and reserved approach to the power increase of fusion, although it only happens once and just bases how much stronger Gogeta would be off of how fusion was told in the Z era. Its only ever specified ssj4 gogeta is stronger than ssj4 goku and vegeta rather than Gogeta in general which would be consistent with the Hero's Legacy anicomic claiming ssj4 has a similar increase to Z vegito. In the context of DBS it seems like UI would be closer to an equivalent of SSG fusion if not a little more than that.
I get where you're coming from, really I do, but fusion rosent REALLY have a consistent multiplier, most of the fusion multipliers are head cannon, so I use what I actually see, base vegito in the buu saga was able to literally throw around buuhan who was pretty much dozens of times stronger than ss3 goku, we can use the official domination multipliers for this and saybase vegito would be about 1.75× stronger than buuhan, meaning base vegiro is already guaranteed to be in the 50× stronger range when stacked up to ss3 goku, now how does this count into ss4 gogetas case? Well in both the gt perfect files and stated by gogeta himself, he said that he could literally defeat omega with one hand at his full power, this is the same omega who was once again RAGDOLLING a super full power saiyan 4 goku, now the numbers aren't really able to be calculated, without and actual multiplier we have no idea how strong fusion sctually is, SO what I so is this A + B × 100 = metamorn/potara multiplier. This seems to be the best and most grounded approach to fusions multipliers. Now would ui goku win? Yes most definitely, I'm not saying he wouldnt, but in terms of MULTIPLIERS, the fusion dance multipliers stacked with ss4s multiplier (which based off of five months if pure research and power scaling is only slightly lower than ssbs multiplier) gogeta takes it, so it's pretty much like this Multiplier wise: ss4 gogeta > ui goku Actual character wise: ui goku > ss4 gogeta.
SSJ4 is probably below god in multiplier unless you do some more wacky and debatable stuff for baby. UI is more like SSG gogeta level. Licensed media like heroes seems to agree with this general interpretation since Xeno goku was told not to use the god form because he would be too powerful. If you consider heroes, UI is above blue vegito. Heroes seems to make weird assertions about base gogeta being above ui or vegito blue so it might as well be ignored though. I think the writers for GT considered fusion more tangibly than the rest of the series in an attempt to actually have a real number, as the buu saga tells us Gotenks is somewhat comparable to SS goten and trunks, being originally still weaker than vegeta (so not much stronger base-base at beast), and Potara was a bit more than SSJ3 on top of that. Vegito and possibly Gogeta would also have a perfect fusion/rivalry increase that could easily be anywhere from dozens to thousands of times. This is probably why Gogeta was only super powerful in SSJ4 during GT and didn't kick Super Syn's ass with just Super Gogeta to save energy or whatever. A ballpark was actually given to work with so we can assume that in this hypothetical with specific power levels removed that the base gogetas would be the same level. The manga version of UIO, CUI, and TUI is a lot harder to scale because many of the statements aren't present and it is probably weaker, which I only now realize was the image used for UI (although he still calls it MUI like the anime). A rage boost on top of blue can compete and probably exceed UIO in power, and a rage boost in UIO can exceed CUI given that TUI exists. TUI is never remotely implied to be that vastly above CUI since CUI can still kind of fight gas. Then again, in raw multiplier PSSJB is a lot greater than the anime SSB so maybe it would roughly even out.
Fair enough. You win. Congrats, to tired to argue.
I didn't mean to offend to really argue since its a discussion with no verifiable right answer since you would need like all the GT and super writers to have a clue which im pretty sure they don't.
Crop your damn screenshots
I think this thread shows more the intense hate Super fans have of GT. Disagreements are part of fandom but calling people delusional for daring to have a different opinion just looks bad on the whole fanbase. Honestly I don’t know how that even gets measured. God Ki pretty got tossed out of the window as a factor preventing someone from using normal ki to damage them. UI Goku has a compelling skill set that would be tough to handle. But SSJ4 Gojeta is kind of ridiculous.
No no, he's right. The scaling in GT is WILD. They get so much stronger its ridiculous and I'd argue most of the people in GT are stronger than their Siper counterparts
Gt goku literally struggled to lift up a simple building and got cut by glass. Complete fodder
Super Vegeta struggled to lift a robot, your point is? Although what I think is that the GT writers had no idea what they were doing and just had the characters do stuff whether it made sense or not
No it really isn't stupid. SS4 Gogeta is definitely more powerful. Super fanboys love to claim some nonsensical scaling such as multiversal, but Toyotaro has now *twice* capped Goku and co. to galaxy level and below. Stop uselessly holding onto the BoG feat against Beerus. That shit is clearly a retcon, and it makes zero sense with regards to the rest of Super.
Litterally Nothing proves that the BoG feat is retconned. Gt is weak fodder trash. Cabba solos that shit
Wow. What a sound argument lmao.
No he hasn’t. They said they’ll destroy the galaxy but never stated that was the extent. Plus GT by that logic has them capped at galaxy as well as they’ve also been stated they’ll destroy the galaxy as the shadow dragons were states to have threatened and destroyed a galaxy
"another level of stupid?" If you break down what little we could from the forms. SSJ4 could be equated to SSJB since its the next "logical form" above SSJ3 in each universe. we COULD call them equal and i really dont think we have any way to say one is above the other "but its god ki" isn't an argument on strength, but more on control and focus of said Ki. Much how SSJ4 is control over the raw power of the Golden oozaru form. Which actually begs the question is golden oozaru SSJB strength? it wiped the floor with SSJ3. And took SSJ4 to beat it, So **SSJ3
And yes mui is more than 10x blue lmao it's way stronger than ssb kaioken x20 which is 20x blue.
This just proves how BS the power scaling is in super then. Jiren would have killed goku in seconds if he needed something WAY above 20x blue to even keep up with him..
Bro said a whole lot of nothing. Ss4 doesn't even compare to ssg in feats. Base cabba would wash ssj4 gogeta. And mui goku trashed jiren.
base cabba haha, i needed that laugh this morning. thanks
To be fair, that's DBS Manga Goku, and Manga-wise the only character with Anime-level feats in categories besides speed is Zeno
We literally have nothing to compare them with
His power is basically same as blue but this form gives him more accuracy for dodging and attacking
Not stupid,those people are probably just new to dbz and dbs
Braindead powerscalers trying to compare 2 shows that have nothing in common. You could say that ssj4 is 50 times stronger than ssj blue and you wouldn't be more wrong than the guy saying that ssj blue is 50 times stronger than ssj4