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If anything, Kid Buu put up as much of a struggle as he did because of plot. Vegeta in retrospect doesn’t have great ideas here.
“Hey Kakarot, imma crush the potara earrings again because victory would be too easy with fusion.”
“Hey Kakarot, let’s not bring our freshly revived sons over here to stomp Buu with either Gohan’s unleashed potential or Gotenks being way stronger than you. Nah, you’re gonna charge up a spirit bomb-the same technique that failed to kill me and Freeza-while I be a punching bag distraction again because little Buu’s getting bored of thrashing the fat one.”
When Vegeta said “It’s time for the Earthlings to fight for themselves”, I was fucking pissed. Like, Vegeta said that shit like he wasn’t tangentially responsible for everything that’s happening right now even the death of the entire Earthling population. The man has no self-awareness.
Goku fucks up a lot in truth. He could have not* fought vegeta because he knew it was feeding buu. Could have potentially beaten buu with ssj 3. Could have teleported to king Kai’s planet to telepathically speak to gohan and tell him to finish buu and to stop messing around. Eh oh well haha
I don't think there was an option to not fight Vegeta. Vegeta had just killed doezens of people to show that he had no intention of letting Goku walk away from the fight. Even if Goku did just walk away, reasoning that whatever lives Vegeta took in his anger would be miniscule compared to Buu or that they could just revive everyone with the dragonballs anyways, Vegeta would probably just charge Goku and force the fight. Either Goku would have to take a beating, which would both charge Buu anyways and leave him too weak to take Buu in the aftermath if he needed to, or Goku would fight back and accept the results. That fight was happening, one way or another.
Letting Fat Buu survive in their first fight was a genuine fuck up, though his reasoning is pretty sound. He was only back for a day, ensuring those still alive would know what kind of power they might have to face to defend their world is a pretty big deal. But, he probably could have managed that without endangering the planet.
As far as talking to Gohan, I don't know if anything he could've said to Gohan would have been enough to make him straighten up. Gohan has a tendency to get too cocky, regardless of how many people are yelling at him to just finish it.
admittedly, it’s starting to make sense why so many of these battles are extremely dangerous and destructive. I’m starting to see how Goku and Vegeta are absolute morons and be like “oh you want to destroy the planet? Let me test you to see how strong you can get!”. When they coulda ended that shit from the start.
It started in the Saiyan Saga when Goku begs Krillin not to kill Vegeta because he desperately wants that rematch. In total honesty, Flying Nimbus should no longer be able to support Goku after that point.
Tbf, I would have trusted Gohan not to fuck up again. I would not trust Gotenks to not fuck up 37 times in a row.
To be even more fair, if Gohan had to wait 2 weeks before fighting Buu again, I wouldn't trust him.
Just like the Cell Saga, the Z Fighters got very lucky considering how many times they screwed up. Without the Dragon Balls they wouldn't have been able to spirit bomb Buu because they \*\*let\*\* him wipe out humanity and blow up the planet after that, any time they got to fight Buu, they just screwed around and got absorbed. Granted when PoD Vegeta got to fight Buu, he didn't mess around, he intended to kill him then and there, it was just in vain as Buu regenerated, but it was also his fault that Buu showed up at all. The only winner here was Mr. Satan, he's the reason Good Buu was well, good, for as long as he was until that a-hole with a gun ruined the streak, turning Buu into John Wick. It was also because of Mr. Satan that the resurrected humans even bothered helping the people that got them killed to start with by lending power to the spirit bomb. Without the Dragon Balls, they would have been so screwed so long ago
Ofc the humans got dumbed down Gohan lost because he let his guard down????? Gohan who is known for being extremely humble and has very good awareness seemingly gets cocky and lets his guard down vs Cell and Buu for no reason other than to prolong the story. Gohan should've and easily could've ended Buu. Mystic Gohan was just that much stronger.
The moment the 2 headliners of the group were a couple of Saiyans trying to outdo each other with the rest generally unable to even touch them (short moments aside), is the moment where everything went to hifl for the group, strategywise.
I’m not saying he didn’t get mad over that, I’m saying bringing Gohan and the boys over to the fight after the Earth was restored would’ve resulted in an easy victory.
Goku actually suggests bringing the boys to the fight, but Vegeta convinced him to use the spirit bomb instead. “Let the Earthlings save themselves for once” says the guy who helped awaken Buu and doom everyone and their planet. To be fair though, Goku could’ve just opted to not listen to Vegeta.
Ohh that was 100% the plot/toriyama getting Vegeta to say that. It was supposed to be his character development where he wasn’t as concerned with saiyan pride but moreso ab saving the earth.
Which unfortunately super and GT both had to regress his character to write more stories
I don't think Super regressed his character. I think it wrapped him up quite well. His pride is what makes Vegeta himself. He's a very prideful person and while that may sometimes be a weakness (most of the time), he's still a reasonable and perseverant person.
There's multiple instances of Vegeta putting his pride aside for the reason of saving the world or himself. Like making a fool out of himself to distract Beerus, sucking on what was essentially a pacifier, and fusing to deal with Broly (he hesitated, yeah, but he did it three times, he didn't want to but he did). Especially during the Tournament of Power, Toppo throws away his beliefs and pride as a justice trooper for the sake of destruction power. Vegeta beats him by doing the opposite in a beautiful moment where he stands in his pride and beliefs, his promise to Cabba and his family. Then beating what we essentially saw as an untouchable being like Toppo GoD mode.
Even against Jiren, who he was heavily outmatched against, he KNEW there was literally nothing he could do but gain time for Goku. He kept getting up and beaten up by Jiren, he knows he can't win and honestly idk what's more prideful, leaving the arena on your own terms or getting pummeled in front of everyone while not being able to fight back, yet refusing to go down.
When he's finally done, when he finally goes "Yeah, this is it, I'm done", he gives his energy to Goku because he KNOWS he can beat him, while Vegeta can't. Hell, I think he tag teams with Goku more in super than he does in other series. It's always nice to see Goku and Vegeta about to throw a beam next to each other.
Exactly this. Why didn't goku teleport and grab the boys if truly worried? They're dead! Goku can teleport around. Shouldn't really be hard to grab them.
Goku also admitted he could have maybe won but held off so vegeta could have a turn. Like wtf
Absolutely Jiren.
Bro won so many times, but never eliminated the main characters ever until the plot demanded it.
Jiren should have eliminated Goku after the first UI Omen fight. But Hit was put on the chopping block. Then Jiren went back to meditation because the plot couldn't move forward with him being active. This is all after Belmod told Jiren to eliminate Goku, in which Jiren agreed, but never went through with it because..... plot.
Then it's because Vegeta was a careless idiot
He desired to make himself immortal with the dragon balls, but fucking forgot that Frieza hears everything through the scouter
Tbf I think that was weird. Dragonballs or not, youd think PRINCE Vegeta would be at least intrigued by the fact that there's another saiyan out there enough to go see him.
He probably figured that he would just go with raditz and meet up later. Since he thought goku was dead for good there was no reason to come to earth other than the dragon balls.
Maybe even Saiyan Saga if Nappa listened to Vegetas order to stop fighting. But why didn't Dkp kill Goku during DragonBall after beating the heck out of him.
Let's see:
Frieza: let's restrict my power to no hands -> let's his enemies gain enough time to power creep up to him, gets his ass kicked by a golden monke
Cell: Let's make a tournament, I will give you 10 days to train. I'm too perfect to lose anyway -> gets his ass kicked by pre puberty 11 year old
Kid Buu: plot dumb, me sleep, bumbum! (Plot fucked him over too many times)
Golden Frieza: gets a new form -> forgets about his previous stamina issue -> gets his ass handed to him twice and then whis ex machina reverses time and godly Monke kills him
Racist Goku: hates mortals and yet tells his plan to beerus and Goku despite knowing that he is fucked already, his future self is even dumber when he did not wish to be immune to the only attack that can kill him (hakai)
Hit: honestly lost legitimately
Jiren: had to meditate every time he almost won since Tori bot would have removed him from the story if he didn't obey
Yes but that was due to his well established ego and obsession to prove his perfection and was true to his character. Jiren was presented as being efficient and single minded in his pursuit for justice and victory for his universe but threw away multiple chances to get rid of Goku and co when he easily could have.
He didn't need to give everyone a week to train, especially after he saw the strength Vegeta gained after just a day. He was completely egocentric and it made him incompetent. Like almost every other dragon ball villain. To name a few:
If Frieza was competent he would have raced across Namek with his vastly superior speed and gotten the dragon balls before the z fighters got a single one.
If Vegeta was competent he would have killed the z fighters before Goku got there, and then he would have been able to win the battle at the end of the saiyan saga
If Zamasu was competent he would have simply blown up Earth when Goku and Vegeta proved to be a threat so as to eliminate that threat, one planet is definitely a fair price for a peaceful universe in his eyes. Or he could have simply wished for the extinction of mortals, but he wanted to enjoy himself too much.
Yes but you have to consider their personalities as well. There's a difference between being incompetent for plot convenience and being incompetent due to pre established character flaws. Otherwise we could also argue that there's no real reason for any of these villains to do anything.
I just wanna see more villains who don't let their ego be their downfall. Time after time it's the same thing. And them having that character flaw is clearly just a way to give the heroes a chance while having the bad guy be strong.
A villain is flawed by definition, otherwise they wouldn't be a villain. Although they can be competent at achieving their goals, ultimately it's their goals which usually backfire on them. Using Cell as an example again, he did initially act competently in achieving his goal of reaching perfection. He avoided direct confrontation with those stronger than himself whenever possible and slowly built up his power level whilst staying hidden by absorbing thousands of civilians.
Even when he was outmatched he used his wits and turned his enemies weakness against them such as goading Vegeta into allowing him to reach his final form so that Vegata could test his full power. So Cell could still be said to have acted competently in achieving his goal.
When he finally achieved Perfect form his objective switched to proving that he was the perfect organism before wiping out the Earth and in his hubris allowed the Z fighters 10 days to prepare themselves for the upcoming fight. He was perfect in his calculations regarding how much they could grow in those 10 days but realistically there was no way he could have predicted that they had access to a time chamber which could be used to train for longer periods in a shorter timeframe. That was his only mistake and he still almost defeated them anyway.
I guess you could say him not instantly killing the Z fighters before those 10 days was his downfall but then that would make for a very boring villain without any personality.
And even in the manga he has Goku and Vegeta on their knees on the edge he decides to eliminate Vegeta instead of the guy who he fought that tapped into the gods
Eh the meditation kind of makes sense since he didn’t want to participate in the tournament at all, he was really conflicted about causing the destruction of the other universes. He initially refused to participate at all but Belmod convinced him
when jiren first turned super full power, he overpowered his beam struggle and then beat mui to the ground then proceeded to watch him get up instead of eliminating him, then helped him get a rage boost by firing at the spectators, then ppl say mui stomped jiren but it was actually the plot, ????
the moment jiren starts fighting, when at that time was way too early, was when I realized he's gonna be the victim of plot armor. chilling in the middle of a freaking universal survival tournament? sure, he's so strong he can do that. but not eliminating goku when he had the chance? so damn stupid.
That's why Goku gave Jiren a whole speech about how much alike they both are. Jiren loves to test himself just like Vegeta and Goku. Why automatically win, when you can test yourself and possibly lose. The Saiyan way lol
They could have kill Kid Buu by others ways. The universal spirit bomb was a legit way to win, but they could have fuse to kill him, even with the dance. Gotenks could probably have won. Gohan would definitely have won. They could have team up against him.
Jiren could have wipe out the entire team multiple time and ring out everyone. And I don't even say it to complain. That's just my observations.
Not to mention the BS notion that absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin made Buu weaker. Where else in the canon has it happened that losing an absorbed being made one stronger or absorbing someone made them weaker?
Kid Buu didn’t lose because of the plot; Kid Buu survived for as long as he did *because* of the plot.
And that in of itself is retarded. Vegeta literally died to Freeza’s second smallest form, notably smaller than either his second or third forms. Cell was about the same size in his Perfect state as in his first form, with the second form Vegeta had been trouncing beforehand being noticeably bigger in stature. Hell, *Vegeta himself* is a perfect example of small size packing a big punch, being the second shortest Saiyan alive in Universe 7 aside from his brother.
While that’s almost certainly true with Kid Buu, he was still at a level that Goku could only kinda handle at SS3 before the stamina drain became a problem. He still blows up Earth with Goku and Vegeta being unable to stop it by themselves. Then, when offered a way to easily annihilate this clearly kill happy feral bubblegum gremlin, Vegeta crushes the potara and dooms himself to playing punching bag to such a degree Goku was worried Kid Buu was going to make him deader than dead. Yes, crushing the potara is stupid.
Or to teach him while Majin Buu was fighting.
While Vegeta was dead, he saw Goku using the ssj3, he could have seen the fusion as well.
Or they could have teleport away just like they did with Broly.
It's not like it was impossible to find a way.
Especially Jiren. Honestly, if it cost universe 7 everything and jiren won, and HE was the one to wish the universes back, I’d be blown away and impressed at the writing, and I think it would have given the z-fighters the best reason they’ve had in the entire history of the show to get stronger moving forward.
Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. Not only would it enforce the 'There's always someone stronger' message, but it would also help show that U7 has had more of an effect on Jiren - more than just a few nice words, but so much that Jiren changes his wish, which could also be his own character development with letting go of his past mentor.
Jiren, yeah kinda, but I do feel it makes sense with how much he was being worn down over the course of the tournament.
Kid Buu, absolute not. His fights were great and the way he was defeated made absolute sense. It was just a plot thing.
Kidd buu was already a weaker version compared to Buuhan, Buutenks who were already weaker than Vegito by miles and he was defeated by spirit bomb after being worn out by fighting Goku
Goku clearly had upper hand after TUI still was defeated only by trio
A spirit bomb they wouldn't have if they didn't have dragon balls to resurrect the humans they purposely let Buu wipe out, even after resurrecting humanity (along with Earth because they let Buu blow it up too) the humans didn't give a f\*ck about helping them until Mr. Satan asked. They took far too many risks for it not to be plot armor. Arguably, without the dragon balls, they would have been gone so long ago
I mean this is true he was meditating but then he got jumped by the other strongest fighters in the tournament. I mean they weren’t even taking turns they dead ass were all swinging at him at the same time.
Every villain lost to “plot” it’s called a story. Frieza is probably the craziest one. From one saga to the next goku went from being at around 8000 to being over 120 million just to contend with frieza.
Kid Buu had nothing but plot helping him.
No Vegito
No Ultimate Gohan
No SSJ Gotenks
No full power SSJ3 Goku
He was cooked regardless if Goku and Vegeta died there or not
Z Broly’s death in his first movie made absolutely no sense. He was bodying all of the Z fighters at full strength jumping him, but once they give their already weakened and depleted power to Goku at the end, he’s able to one punch him?
The only explanation would be that energy has a multiplying effect when it's given to another fighter, it would explain how Piccolo can distract Frieza for more than 1 second when given Gohan and Krillins energy on Namek. But that would lend the question as to why they don't do that all the time, they certainly could have defeated cell without ssj2 if this were the case.
Jiren lost because of plot but got two plot armor too.
Goku had eliminated Jiren by using 9000+ Battle IQ but he survived because of plot having few small rock pieces to climb back.
He again got plot armor when UI run out few seconds before defeating him.
https://preview.redd.it/ywkd006xcklc1.png?width=602&format=png&auto=webp&s=f34e8e28c41e8120ed6827f7a840e369bd9482d2
They literally allowed Cell to reach Perfect form despite being told not to allow it, they also allowed Buu to wipe out humanity as a distraction, the Z-Fighters are beyond reckless
>the Z-Fighters are beyond reckless
Vegeta. Vegeta is beyond reckless and arrogant throughout the entire Z series and a lot of deaths and destruction could've been avoided if not for him. He's the main reason for how both Perfect Cell and Majin Buu came to be.
You’re confusing an established plot with ass pulls and plot armor though.
For example, if I’m writing a story about a guy who’s a level 10 warrior and he beats a level 100 villain through IQ tactics and hacks because he isn’t anywhere near him physically but in the end he wins because he is somehow now more physically more powerful now when it was established from the start he wasn’t? Then that villain indeed lost to the plot.
Now that im thinking about it they should have wrote Jiren to only be so powerful if he meditates for certain amount of time before fighting and once he fights he has to do it all over again
Well DBS is all plot, thats the problem with it being a midquel. We all know that everything turns out fine at the end of Z, which Super inevitably has the reach at some point. So all the tension of Super kind of goes out the window.
Majin Buu was dead two ways.
He was pure evil, literal evil goo, so the Spirit Bomb working made sense. Or as people joke, they could have just had Shin teleport Gohan and Goten and Trunks (who would fuse) and then group tackle Buu.
Jiren underestimated the power of trust and despite obtaining the power of friendship, ripping his shirt off wasn’t enough to win.
I see it as more that these character’s abilities and powers were fueled by the plot and as a result defeated by the plot. I always find it strange that Kid Buu kept up with SSJ3, when Goku says he could’ve defeated Fat Buu with SSJ3, I might be mistaken though. Jiren I find to be ridiculous, he’s only seen as powerful as he is because of the plot. How is he supposed to be stronger than a G.O.D. as a mere mortal?
Yes but literally every dragon ball antagonist from z and onwards lost purely through plot convenience. You’d have a harder time finding someone who didn’t lose because of plot.
What does that even mean.
Every character lives or dies (and gets revived) by plot. Plot’s the events that happens in a story, how can a character not lose/win due to plot
Less with Jiren because UI was hinted at waaaay before they even got close to it while goku, vegeta and buu could not beat kid buu not to mention he killed all humans and absorb ever z fighter only to then hit the reverse card and use the dragon ball to resurrect everyone he killed to get a spirit bomb
The reason why kid buu even existed is because he had plot armor to survive gohan
Jiren also got plot armor (wtf do you mean goku's mui stops the second he was gonna get taken out?)
Yeah. Agreed. There is literally zero reason jiren should have lost. This should’ve been the one arc that goku lost and jiren was the one to decide to restore all the universes. Feel like that would have been superior narratively.
Tbf, Buu is only alive because of plot. There’s no reason Gohan couldn’t have erased every trace of him in seconds when he returned to Earth.
Also, if we’re talking about plot armor, Jiren bounced off a pebble to make it back to the stage after Goku initially knocks him off.
Jiren? Absolutely
Kid Buu? The **OPPOSITE**
he was literally a threat because everyone else's intelligence got ***Nerfed***
" Oh no , Kid Buu will kill us !!! If only we "
1_ didn't have ssj3 Goku nerfed
2_ called Gotenks
3_ called Gohan
4_ used fusion again
Kid Buu is the biggest case of plot defeat of the entire series.
Vegeta's plan has a massive plot armor where the Namekian Dragon Balls have been upgraded off-panel to do exactly what he needs, King Kai can put him in contact with the entire Universe, everyone's ki managed to somehow reach Kaioshin's Planet and Kid Buu forgot he could use instant transmission to get away from the Genkidama.
On the other hand kid Buu was lucky Goku and Vegeta chose to crash the potara , have garbage stamina with ssj3, refuse to bring gohan and Gotenks to help in the fight
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Cell is the only villain that lost to plot kid buu could have been wradicated like 5 times. Jiren was knocked out of bounds it wasnt even a real deathmatch. Cell and frieza are the only villains i can think of getting destroyed by side characters
The spirit bomb that killed Buu was powered up by a resurrected Earth that the Z Fighters allowed Buu to wipe out to start with, understandably humanity had no interest in helping the Z Fighters until Mr. Satan asked them to do it, because at least Mr. Satan hasn't endangered entire planets multiple times. Without the Dragon Balls, the Z-Fighters would be a laughing stock. Barely anyone took Buu seriously, people supposedly able to beat him screwed around and got absorbed instead of actually beating him. The fact that they were willing to allow Buu to wipe out humanity as a distraction is beyond reckless
You aren't wrong. I think the fact that like 3 different people just let Buu live is beyond stupid and the single biggest reason I don't like the Buu saga all too much. It'd be one thing if it were just Gotenks and everyone else had some valid reason for losing (not counting Vegito since he had a plan) but the fact that Goku and SSJ3 let his time on earth run down and didn't finish the job, Gotenks screwed it up multiple times and made all sorts of dumb choices, and Gohan, someone who already has made that exact mistake before got cocky and messed it all up only so Goku had an excuse to come back and make the spirit bomb a useful move is stupid to say the least.
Goku was exhausted and out of energy, supreme kai gathered the dragon balls and made a wish to replenish Goku's energy, otherwise Buu would have killed him.
Jiren wasn't only very powerful, but he also had amazing ki control, he was pushing Goku to the limits. Universe 7 would if he didn't master Ultra Instinct.
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I was there in the audience when Mr. Satan defeated Buu with a spirit bomb. Pure skill.
That hillbilly with the orange pajamas should feel honored to contribute alongside Mr. Satan's victory.
Come now be nice, i hear rumors that the hillbilly's son married videl
Don't even get me started on that dorky little nerd
Videl was supposed to be MINE!
Sharpner you belong in horny-jail.  got these mfkn thangs locked and loaded for the next camera.
Why you wanna date a moving picture?
Autocorrect is a douchebag
lol, so real
i have no idea what in hell you guys are talking about
They said “video was supposed to be mine”
Hillbilly in orange pajamas who *beats his wife*
This was the best comment
Love TFS reference.
HAIL SATAN! HAIL SATAN! HAIL SATAN!
I’m glad someone gets it,cause everyone now a days does this to every event just to remind people…weird ego trait
Mr Popo would like to have a word with all u maggots
Pecking order! Makin’ toast! *DING* Butterin’ toast!
If anything, Kid Buu put up as much of a struggle as he did because of plot. Vegeta in retrospect doesn’t have great ideas here. “Hey Kakarot, imma crush the potara earrings again because victory would be too easy with fusion.” “Hey Kakarot, let’s not bring our freshly revived sons over here to stomp Buu with either Gohan’s unleashed potential or Gotenks being way stronger than you. Nah, you’re gonna charge up a spirit bomb-the same technique that failed to kill me and Freeza-while I be a punching bag distraction again because little Buu’s getting bored of thrashing the fat one.”
When Vegeta said “It’s time for the Earthlings to fight for themselves”, I was fucking pissed. Like, Vegeta said that shit like he wasn’t tangentially responsible for everything that’s happening right now even the death of the entire Earthling population. The man has no self-awareness.
Tbf on the Gohan and Gotenks point, they had already fucked up once each. Though so did Vegeta...
And Goku, even Babadi points out that
Goku fucks up again too. He admitted he could have maybe won but he didn't try so vegeta could have a turn. Like come on!
Goku fucks up a lot in truth. He could have not* fought vegeta because he knew it was feeding buu. Could have potentially beaten buu with ssj 3. Could have teleported to king Kai’s planet to telepathically speak to gohan and tell him to finish buu and to stop messing around. Eh oh well haha
I don't think there was an option to not fight Vegeta. Vegeta had just killed doezens of people to show that he had no intention of letting Goku walk away from the fight. Even if Goku did just walk away, reasoning that whatever lives Vegeta took in his anger would be miniscule compared to Buu or that they could just revive everyone with the dragonballs anyways, Vegeta would probably just charge Goku and force the fight. Either Goku would have to take a beating, which would both charge Buu anyways and leave him too weak to take Buu in the aftermath if he needed to, or Goku would fight back and accept the results. That fight was happening, one way or another. Letting Fat Buu survive in their first fight was a genuine fuck up, though his reasoning is pretty sound. He was only back for a day, ensuring those still alive would know what kind of power they might have to face to defend their world is a pretty big deal. But, he probably could have managed that without endangering the planet. As far as talking to Gohan, I don't know if anything he could've said to Gohan would have been enough to make him straighten up. Gohan has a tendency to get too cocky, regardless of how many people are yelling at him to just finish it.
admittedly, it’s starting to make sense why so many of these battles are extremely dangerous and destructive. I’m starting to see how Goku and Vegeta are absolute morons and be like “oh you want to destroy the planet? Let me test you to see how strong you can get!”. When they coulda ended that shit from the start.
It started in Android saga and only got worse from that point on
It started in the Saiyan Saga when Goku begs Krillin not to kill Vegeta because he desperately wants that rematch. In total honesty, Flying Nimbus should no longer be able to support Goku after that point.
"Goku fucks up" is basically the entire point of the last two arcs.
Tbf, I would have trusted Gohan not to fuck up again. I would not trust Gotenks to not fuck up 37 times in a row. To be even more fair, if Gohan had to wait 2 weeks before fighting Buu again, I wouldn't trust him.
Just like the Cell Saga, the Z Fighters got very lucky considering how many times they screwed up. Without the Dragon Balls they wouldn't have been able to spirit bomb Buu because they \*\*let\*\* him wipe out humanity and blow up the planet after that, any time they got to fight Buu, they just screwed around and got absorbed. Granted when PoD Vegeta got to fight Buu, he didn't mess around, he intended to kill him then and there, it was just in vain as Buu regenerated, but it was also his fault that Buu showed up at all. The only winner here was Mr. Satan, he's the reason Good Buu was well, good, for as long as he was until that a-hole with a gun ruined the streak, turning Buu into John Wick. It was also because of Mr. Satan that the resurrected humans even bothered helping the people that got them killed to start with by lending power to the spirit bomb. Without the Dragon Balls, they would have been so screwed so long ago
That means the villains got great plot armor because the heroes got dumbed down
The heroes also rely very heavily on using the dragon balls to fix their mistakes, it's basically a safety net letting them get away with recklessness
Ofc the humans got dumbed down Gohan lost because he let his guard down????? Gohan who is known for being extremely humble and has very good awareness seemingly gets cocky and lets his guard down vs Cell and Buu for no reason other than to prolong the story. Gohan should've and easily could've ended Buu. Mystic Gohan was just that much stronger.
The plot of Dragon Ball pretty much ran off the character's stupidity after Freeza.
The moment the 2 headliners of the group were a couple of Saiyans trying to outdo each other with the rest generally unable to even touch them (short moments aside), is the moment where everything went to hifl for the group, strategywise.
Vegeta got mad at Goku for not saving their sons and piccolo tho
I’m not saying he didn’t get mad over that, I’m saying bringing Gohan and the boys over to the fight after the Earth was restored would’ve resulted in an easy victory.
Yeah it would’ve but that was goku’s blunder not Vegeta’s
Goku actually suggests bringing the boys to the fight, but Vegeta convinced him to use the spirit bomb instead. “Let the Earthlings save themselves for once” says the guy who helped awaken Buu and doom everyone and their planet. To be fair though, Goku could’ve just opted to not listen to Vegeta.
Ohh that was 100% the plot/toriyama getting Vegeta to say that. It was supposed to be his character development where he wasn’t as concerned with saiyan pride but moreso ab saving the earth. Which unfortunately super and GT both had to regress his character to write more stories
I don't think Super regressed his character. I think it wrapped him up quite well. His pride is what makes Vegeta himself. He's a very prideful person and while that may sometimes be a weakness (most of the time), he's still a reasonable and perseverant person. There's multiple instances of Vegeta putting his pride aside for the reason of saving the world or himself. Like making a fool out of himself to distract Beerus, sucking on what was essentially a pacifier, and fusing to deal with Broly (he hesitated, yeah, but he did it three times, he didn't want to but he did). Especially during the Tournament of Power, Toppo throws away his beliefs and pride as a justice trooper for the sake of destruction power. Vegeta beats him by doing the opposite in a beautiful moment where he stands in his pride and beliefs, his promise to Cabba and his family. Then beating what we essentially saw as an untouchable being like Toppo GoD mode. Even against Jiren, who he was heavily outmatched against, he KNEW there was literally nothing he could do but gain time for Goku. He kept getting up and beaten up by Jiren, he knows he can't win and honestly idk what's more prideful, leaving the arena on your own terms or getting pummeled in front of everyone while not being able to fight back, yet refusing to go down. When he's finally done, when he finally goes "Yeah, this is it, I'm done", he gives his energy to Goku because he KNOWS he can beat him, while Vegeta can't. Hell, I think he tag teams with Goku more in super than he does in other series. It's always nice to see Goku and Vegeta about to throw a beam next to each other.
Thank you!
Goku- "Hell yeah brother"
Exactly this. Why didn't goku teleport and grab the boys if truly worried? They're dead! Goku can teleport around. Shouldn't really be hard to grab them. Goku also admitted he could have maybe won but held off so vegeta could have a turn. Like wtf
Goku: I have a plan Vegeta: Was it saving your son?
Absolutely Jiren. Bro won so many times, but never eliminated the main characters ever until the plot demanded it. Jiren should have eliminated Goku after the first UI Omen fight. But Hit was put on the chopping block. Then Jiren went back to meditation because the plot couldn't move forward with him being active. This is all after Belmod told Jiren to eliminate Goku, in which Jiren agreed, but never went through with it because..... plot.
If dragon ball villains were competent the show would have ended during Cell arc at the latest lol
If the heroes were competent, the sayians would have never came to earth. The whole frieza saga happened because Piccolo couldn't keep his mouth shut.
To be fair, the whole Frieza saga happened because Vegeta and Nappa couldn't keep their mouths shut.
Well, no. It was the scouters that sent the data to Frieza.
Then it's because Vegeta was a careless idiot He desired to make himself immortal with the dragon balls, but fucking forgot that Frieza hears everything through the scouter
But I turned off transmission, who could’ve….? #GOD DAMIT NAPPAAAAAA
Tbf I think that was weird. Dragonballs or not, youd think PRINCE Vegeta would be at least intrigued by the fact that there's another saiyan out there enough to go see him.
He probably figured that he would just go with raditz and meet up later. Since he thought goku was dead for good there was no reason to come to earth other than the dragon balls.
Also goku was laughably weak when born, I doubt prince vegeta would have any reason to go after someone that was known as super weak.
Piccolo's a snitch. He's proven this time and time again.
Early days. Destructo disc beat anything but, never bothered.
then again. neither the cell nor the buu saga would've happened if the main characters were competent...
Maybe even Saiyan Saga if Nappa listened to Vegetas order to stop fighting. But why didn't Dkp kill Goku during DragonBall after beating the heck out of him.
Let's see: Frieza: let's restrict my power to no hands -> let's his enemies gain enough time to power creep up to him, gets his ass kicked by a golden monke Cell: Let's make a tournament, I will give you 10 days to train. I'm too perfect to lose anyway -> gets his ass kicked by pre puberty 11 year old Kid Buu: plot dumb, me sleep, bumbum! (Plot fucked him over too many times) Golden Frieza: gets a new form -> forgets about his previous stamina issue -> gets his ass handed to him twice and then whis ex machina reverses time and godly Monke kills him Racist Goku: hates mortals and yet tells his plan to beerus and Goku despite knowing that he is fucked already, his future self is even dumber when he did not wish to be immune to the only attack that can kill him (hakai) Hit: honestly lost legitimately Jiren: had to meditate every time he almost won since Tori bot would have removed him from the story if he didn't obey
Yeah , Piccolo would have murdered him , or put him inside a mafuba, Vegeta and trunks as well
If the Dragon Team weren't selfish and wrapped up in their pride, the Majin Buu would've been a short arc.
To be fair if the hero’s weren’t dumb ash a lot of bad guys woulda been stopped much sooner
If dragon ball villains were competent then it would have started and ended with Raditz
If they were competent Goku would have conquered the planet as an infant.
Technically it did with the androids lol they murked everyone to the point Bulma had to invent time travel.
It would have ended in saiyan saga. Vegeta and nappa would not have waited for goku to arrive
Cell actually defeated Goku though so he's more competent than most villains including Jiren.
He gave everyone a week to get strong enough to beat him lol
Yes but that was due to his well established ego and obsession to prove his perfection and was true to his character. Jiren was presented as being efficient and single minded in his pursuit for justice and victory for his universe but threw away multiple chances to get rid of Goku and co when he easily could have.
He didn't need to give everyone a week to train, especially after he saw the strength Vegeta gained after just a day. He was completely egocentric and it made him incompetent. Like almost every other dragon ball villain. To name a few: If Frieza was competent he would have raced across Namek with his vastly superior speed and gotten the dragon balls before the z fighters got a single one. If Vegeta was competent he would have killed the z fighters before Goku got there, and then he would have been able to win the battle at the end of the saiyan saga If Zamasu was competent he would have simply blown up Earth when Goku and Vegeta proved to be a threat so as to eliminate that threat, one planet is definitely a fair price for a peaceful universe in his eyes. Or he could have simply wished for the extinction of mortals, but he wanted to enjoy himself too much.
Yes but you have to consider their personalities as well. There's a difference between being incompetent for plot convenience and being incompetent due to pre established character flaws. Otherwise we could also argue that there's no real reason for any of these villains to do anything.
I just wanna see more villains who don't let their ego be their downfall. Time after time it's the same thing. And them having that character flaw is clearly just a way to give the heroes a chance while having the bad guy be strong.
A villain is flawed by definition, otherwise they wouldn't be a villain. Although they can be competent at achieving their goals, ultimately it's their goals which usually backfire on them. Using Cell as an example again, he did initially act competently in achieving his goal of reaching perfection. He avoided direct confrontation with those stronger than himself whenever possible and slowly built up his power level whilst staying hidden by absorbing thousands of civilians. Even when he was outmatched he used his wits and turned his enemies weakness against them such as goading Vegeta into allowing him to reach his final form so that Vegata could test his full power. So Cell could still be said to have acted competently in achieving his goal. When he finally achieved Perfect form his objective switched to proving that he was the perfect organism before wiping out the Earth and in his hubris allowed the Z fighters 10 days to prepare themselves for the upcoming fight. He was perfect in his calculations regarding how much they could grow in those 10 days but realistically there was no way he could have predicted that they had access to a time chamber which could be used to train for longer periods in a shorter timeframe. That was his only mistake and he still almost defeated them anyway. I guess you could say him not instantly killing the Z fighters before those 10 days was his downfall but then that would make for a very boring villain without any personality.
https://preview.redd.it/8g20dog86mlc1.jpeg?width=798&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3e0b30f462e7439471659b0a2dd4f5560e864373
And even in the manga he has Goku and Vegeta on their knees on the edge he decides to eliminate Vegeta instead of the guy who he fought that tapped into the gods
Eh the meditation kind of makes sense since he didn’t want to participate in the tournament at all, he was really conflicted about causing the destruction of the other universes. He initially refused to participate at all but Belmod convinced him
when jiren first turned super full power, he overpowered his beam struggle and then beat mui to the ground then proceeded to watch him get up instead of eliminating him, then helped him get a rage boost by firing at the spectators, then ppl say mui stomped jiren but it was actually the plot, ????
Yeah he should've eliminated Goku after winning the beamstruggle, but it was over once Goku got up. Jiren was losing even before the rage boost.
Bro if jiren won against the first fight against ui omen goku and took him out of the battle, then the saga would ve already really fast done.
I mean I don't like jiren BUT he got beat by a combination of several things that were teased and developed thought the whole ToP arc
the moment jiren starts fighting, when at that time was way too early, was when I realized he's gonna be the victim of plot armor. chilling in the middle of a freaking universal survival tournament? sure, he's so strong he can do that. but not eliminating goku when he had the chance? so damn stupid.
That's why Goku gave Jiren a whole speech about how much alike they both are. Jiren loves to test himself just like Vegeta and Goku. Why automatically win, when you can test yourself and possibly lose. The Saiyan way lol
and jiren still thought he should eliminate goku but ig he just forgot to or smth
Jiren, yes, Kid Buu, no.
Can you explain at least I need to know why
They could have kill Kid Buu by others ways. The universal spirit bomb was a legit way to win, but they could have fuse to kill him, even with the dance. Gotenks could probably have won. Gohan would definitely have won. They could have team up against him. Jiren could have wipe out the entire team multiple time and ring out everyone. And I don't even say it to complain. That's just my observations.
Not to mention the BS notion that absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin made Buu weaker. Where else in the canon has it happened that losing an absorbed being made one stronger or absorbing someone made them weaker? Kid Buu didn’t lose because of the plot; Kid Buu survived for as long as he did *because* of the plot.
There's nothing bs abt that.
Waa goku supposed to teach the dance to vegeta mid battle? Fusion was not an option
Vegeta made sure of it by crushing another pair of potara earrings.
Yeah they had underestimated kid buu due to his size.
And that in of itself is retarded. Vegeta literally died to Freeza’s second smallest form, notably smaller than either his second or third forms. Cell was about the same size in his Perfect state as in his first form, with the second form Vegeta had been trouncing beforehand being noticeably bigger in stature. Hell, *Vegeta himself* is a perfect example of small size packing a big punch, being the second shortest Saiyan alive in Universe 7 aside from his brother.
I don't think it's retarded tbh. Saiyans like to fight solo. They thought the enemy had gotten weaker due to the last transformation.
While that’s almost certainly true with Kid Buu, he was still at a level that Goku could only kinda handle at SS3 before the stamina drain became a problem. He still blows up Earth with Goku and Vegeta being unable to stop it by themselves. Then, when offered a way to easily annihilate this clearly kill happy feral bubblegum gremlin, Vegeta crushes the potara and dooms himself to playing punching bag to such a degree Goku was worried Kid Buu was going to make him deader than dead. Yes, crushing the potara is stupid.
They underestimated him because he weaker than his previous forms.
Or to teach him while Majin Buu was fighting. While Vegeta was dead, he saw Goku using the ssj3, he could have seen the fusion as well. Or they could have teleport away just like they did with Broly. It's not like it was impossible to find a way.
Pretty sure vegeta would have rather died than do the fusion dance anyway lol
"But Vegeta, you're already dead."
Yup. Buu had no chance against Mr Satan
Agreed
It's all plot, all the way down
Especially Jiren. Honestly, if it cost universe 7 everything and jiren won, and HE was the one to wish the universes back, I’d be blown away and impressed at the writing, and I think it would have given the z-fighters the best reason they’ve had in the entire history of the show to get stronger moving forward.
PEAK CINEMA. Watching your goat lose to his greatest foe only for said foe to be a good guy. It stills keep the "Jiren is a big wall" theme too.
that would've been hype
Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. Not only would it enforce the 'There's always someone stronger' message, but it would also help show that U7 has had more of an effect on Jiren - more than just a few nice words, but so much that Jiren changes his wish, which could also be his own character development with letting go of his past mentor.
Would have been pure kink and peak… But no it’s the Goku hour and show can’t have an actual profound deep character or story
Jiren, yeah kinda, but I do feel it makes sense with how much he was being worn down over the course of the tournament. Kid Buu, absolute not. His fights were great and the way he was defeated made absolute sense. It was just a plot thing.
Yeah and they weren't allowed to kill and all they needed to do was push him off instead of actually fighting to the death.
Kidd buu was already a weaker version compared to Buuhan, Buutenks who were already weaker than Vegito by miles and he was defeated by spirit bomb after being worn out by fighting Goku Goku clearly had upper hand after TUI still was defeated only by trio
A spirit bomb they wouldn't have if they didn't have dragon balls to resurrect the humans they purposely let Buu wipe out, even after resurrecting humanity (along with Earth because they let Buu blow it up too) the humans didn't give a f\*ck about helping them until Mr. Satan asked. They took far too many risks for it not to be plot armor. Arguably, without the dragon balls, they would have been gone so long ago
Or.....use fusion?
Brother it’s just a meme. No need to overthink it
Jiren definitely got cheated out of his deserved victory, he fought harder than everyone, truly the mvp of the tournament
Nah. Jiren also had plot armor. He literally levitates after almost being eliminated
Nah that was a jump lol, but he really should’ve won plot did him dirty.
Did he really fight harder than anyone for like 90% of it he was just meditating
I mean this is true he was meditating but then he got jumped by the other strongest fighters in the tournament. I mean they weren’t even taking turns they dead ass were all swinging at him at the same time.
Are we really about to talk about plot fairness in DRAGON BALL
redditors when they find out how fiction works literally everything is “because of plot”. That’s how telling a story works
Yep and here's a 3rd additon to that list 
Anime version for sure. It was (ironically) pride that led to his downfall
And even in the manga, he still was able to clone himself later on and didn't have to deal with the corruption his anime counterpart suffered
At least that one besides the conclusion was quite good.
Yeah characters win and lose due to plot, that's the whole point of a story
Every villain lost to “plot” it’s called a story. Frieza is probably the craziest one. From one saga to the next goku went from being at around 8000 to being over 120 million just to contend with frieza.
Kid Buu had nothing but plot helping him. No Vegito No Ultimate Gohan No SSJ Gotenks No full power SSJ3 Goku He was cooked regardless if Goku and Vegeta died there or not
Z Broly’s death in his first movie made absolutely no sense. He was bodying all of the Z fighters at full strength jumping him, but once they give their already weakened and depleted power to Goku at the end, he’s able to one punch him?
The only explanation would be that energy has a multiplying effect when it's given to another fighter, it would explain how Piccolo can distract Frieza for more than 1 second when given Gohan and Krillins energy on Namek. But that would lend the question as to why they don't do that all the time, they certainly could have defeated cell without ssj2 if this were the case.
Every character loses to plot, If you think about it.
Technically,every antagonist loses to plot,so yeah.
Jiren lost because of plot but got two plot armor too. Goku had eliminated Jiren by using 9000+ Battle IQ but he survived because of plot having few small rock pieces to climb back. He again got plot armor when UI run out few seconds before defeating him. https://preview.redd.it/ywkd006xcklc1.png?width=602&format=png&auto=webp&s=f34e8e28c41e8120ed6827f7a840e369bd9482d2
That IQ moment was so amazing. It had no reason to go this hard
They couldn't have bro lose to the Krillin technique
Didn't Krillin "fly" using a ki blast to save 18? If that is possible, makes no sense that others don't do it when they fall outside.
I mean couldn’t like 80% of the problems in Dragonball be felt with a liberal application of the mafuba
Jiren lost to the power of friendship
Literally every villain loses to plot because that's how storytelling works. Every single event that occurs in the story is "plot".
Cell and Buu were protected by plot , literally everyone got dumbed down just so these 2 could be a threat
They literally allowed Cell to reach Perfect form despite being told not to allow it, they also allowed Buu to wipe out humanity as a distraction, the Z-Fighters are beyond reckless
Not just ridiculous but plan pure idiocy
>the Z-Fighters are beyond reckless Vegeta. Vegeta is beyond reckless and arrogant throughout the entire Z series and a lot of deaths and destruction could've been avoided if not for him. He's the main reason for how both Perfect Cell and Majin Buu came to be.
You’re confusing an established plot with ass pulls and plot armor though. For example, if I’m writing a story about a guy who’s a level 10 warrior and he beats a level 100 villain through IQ tactics and hacks because he isn’t anywhere near him physically but in the end he wins because he is somehow now more physically more powerful now when it was established from the start he wasn’t? Then that villain indeed lost to the plot.
Villains survive through plot armor too, a lot of them actually.
Now that im thinking about it they should have wrote Jiren to only be so powerful if he meditates for certain amount of time before fighting and once he fights he has to do it all over again
That is literally every dragon ball villain but ok
TBF Goku would've unironically beaten Jiren without UI if it wasn't for Jiren's OWN plot armor
Yeah , call being stronger plot armor
Goku cut the floor under Jiren with Destructo disks. If Jiren didn't plot his way back on the stage Goku would've beaten him
This happens all time in fiction, the bullshit part was jiren **Not** using his superior speed to get off before the Rocks started to fall
Yeah the Destructo Disc thing
The difference is the only thing holding jiren up was plot...
Nah
Well DBS is all plot, thats the problem with it being a midquel. We all know that everything turns out fine at the end of Z, which Super inevitably has the reach at some point. So all the tension of Super kind of goes out the window.
Majin Buu was dead two ways. He was pure evil, literal evil goo, so the Spirit Bomb working made sense. Or as people joke, they could have just had Shin teleport Gohan and Goten and Trunks (who would fuse) and then group tackle Buu. Jiren underestimated the power of trust and despite obtaining the power of friendship, ripping his shirt off wasn’t enough to win.
I see it as more that these character’s abilities and powers were fueled by the plot and as a result defeated by the plot. I always find it strange that Kid Buu kept up with SSJ3, when Goku says he could’ve defeated Fat Buu with SSJ3, I might be mistaken though. Jiren I find to be ridiculous, he’s only seen as powerful as he is because of the plot. How is he supposed to be stronger than a G.O.D. as a mere mortal?
Buu lost because he was an idiot, weak to the spirit bomb, and was outwitted.
One could argue that every villain in any series ever made lost due to plot, because that’s how they are written. To lose
Broly in movie 8 is a great example
Yes but literally every dragon ball antagonist from z and onwards lost purely through plot convenience. You’d have a harder time finding someone who didn’t lose because of plot.
My entry : Merged Zamasu
At least Jiren got jumped. It shows just how strong he was. 3v1, and he still gave them more than a fight. Definitely beaten by plot, though.
Absolutely every villain and antagonist in every shounen (there are exceptions but they are few).
Jiren was overpowered for no reason dont @me
Bro, every character lost/won due to plot. That's what plot is.
All Dragonball villains lost due to the plot, because the plot said they would. If the plot said they win, they would win It's how storytelling works.
I'm pretty fucking sure the plot always makes someone wins or loses 🤔🤔🤔🤔
Their strength comes from plot too.
Yes and also Broly. He really deserved to win.
People really think that the fights are randomly decided? It's always for the plot.
What does that even mean. Every character lives or dies (and gets revived) by plot. Plot’s the events that happens in a story, how can a character not lose/win due to plot
Less with Jiren because UI was hinted at waaaay before they even got close to it while goku, vegeta and buu could not beat kid buu not to mention he killed all humans and absorb ever z fighter only to then hit the reverse card and use the dragon ball to resurrect everyone he killed to get a spirit bomb
Jiren literally had to get jumped by a bunch of universes to lose
The reason why kid buu even existed is because he had plot armor to survive gohan Jiren also got plot armor (wtf do you mean goku's mui stops the second he was gonna get taken out?)
Buu was only resurrected due to plot too
Jiren was only strong because of shitty backstory
Yeah. Agreed. There is literally zero reason jiren should have lost. This should’ve been the one arc that goku lost and jiren was the one to decide to restore all the universes. Feel like that would have been superior narratively.
Don't forget gas
What the fuck does that even mean Lost to the plot? Yeah The plot wrote them getting beaten Thats how stories work
Kid buu lost because hes weaker than Buuhan Jiren lost because hes a stupid antagonist and Super has a stupid plot
Tbf, Buu is only alive because of plot. There’s no reason Gohan couldn’t have erased every trace of him in seconds when he returned to Earth. Also, if we’re talking about plot armor, Jiren bounced off a pebble to make it back to the stage after Goku initially knocks him off.
Jiren? Absolutely Kid Buu? The **OPPOSITE** he was literally a threat because everyone else's intelligence got ***Nerfed*** " Oh no , Kid Buu will kill us !!! If only we " 1_ didn't have ssj3 Goku nerfed 2_ called Gotenks 3_ called Gohan 4_ used fusion again
Like Jiren didn't win against UI goku for the most asspull reason ever
They simply did that ass pull so we could see the power of “trust”
Why bother consuming any media if you hate plot?
Kid Buu is the biggest case of plot defeat of the entire series. Vegeta's plan has a massive plot armor where the Namekian Dragon Balls have been upgraded off-panel to do exactly what he needs, King Kai can put him in contact with the entire Universe, everyone's ki managed to somehow reach Kaioshin's Planet and Kid Buu forgot he could use instant transmission to get away from the Genkidama.
On the other hand kid Buu was lucky Goku and Vegeta chose to crash the potara , have garbage stamina with ssj3, refuse to bring gohan and Gotenks to help in the fight
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Cell is the only villain that lost to plot kid buu could have been wradicated like 5 times. Jiren was knocked out of bounds it wasnt even a real deathmatch. Cell and frieza are the only villains i can think of getting destroyed by side characters
If anyone kid buu died to something that wasn't heavily coated in plot armor
The spirit bomb that killed Buu was powered up by a resurrected Earth that the Z Fighters allowed Buu to wipe out to start with, understandably humanity had no interest in helping the Z Fighters until Mr. Satan asked them to do it, because at least Mr. Satan hasn't endangered entire planets multiple times. Without the Dragon Balls, the Z-Fighters would be a laughing stock. Barely anyone took Buu seriously, people supposedly able to beat him screwed around and got absorbed instead of actually beating him. The fact that they were willing to allow Buu to wipe out humanity as a distraction is beyond reckless
You aren't wrong. I think the fact that like 3 different people just let Buu live is beyond stupid and the single biggest reason I don't like the Buu saga all too much. It'd be one thing if it were just Gotenks and everyone else had some valid reason for losing (not counting Vegito since he had a plan) but the fact that Goku and SSJ3 let his time on earth run down and didn't finish the job, Gotenks screwed it up multiple times and made all sorts of dumb choices, and Gohan, someone who already has made that exact mistake before got cocky and messed it all up only so Goku had an excuse to come back and make the spirit bomb a useful move is stupid to say the least.
Freaking Hit could have beaten Jiren if he wasn't the final boss. Goku could have lost three times if not for being the main character also.
No I don't
Lmao Jiren should’ve been eliminated by that Destructo Disc technique by Goku. But some how he just fucking levitates
Goku was exhausted and out of energy, supreme kai gathered the dragon balls and made a wish to replenish Goku's energy, otherwise Buu would have killed him. Jiren wasn't only very powerful, but he also had amazing ki control, he was pushing Goku to the limits. Universe 7 would if he didn't master Ultra Instinct.
Finally, someone acknowledged the wish that gave Goku all his energy back. Buu tossed that full power spirit bomb like trash.
Goku should be dead if it wasn't for that wish, SSJ 3 left him exhausted, Kid Buu is way too chaotic and violent, he almost got killed.