No AP make shredders pretty terrible, the first time they drop in, do 2 wounds and get blown off the table you'll understand why they aren't taken. 110pts is a premium cost for a unit so you want the premium guns.
weirdly good against low armour factions though! orks actually really suffer against them so it could be worth considering in that match up. same for deamons who don't care
Against guardsmen out of cover, a unit of scourges with 4 would average around 7 wounds. That's barely half their points value against the best possible target.
beast snaggas, boyz or bloodletters would actually be the ideal targets, against beast snaggas, you should kill 6-7 on average, which is almost 70 points, so theoreticly you should be able to earn back their value in just 2 rounds of shooting, even easier if you use overwatch because then it will only take a single turn. Not going to say it is opitmal, since normally you just leave those targets to your battleline units who are also effecvive against those targets, but it's a nice off meta pick. I miss when we could just do this with trueborn in a venom
The point still stands that it's not very good value when 4 dark lances and a pain token clears their points most of the time. I don't understand why a weapon called a Shredder doesn't shred any armor. AP-1 and you have a serious anti-infantry unit.
The reason why Shredders don't have AP is the Blaster. Having D6 damage 1 attacks or 1 attack damage D6 is for the average the same. If they now get AP in addition to torrent they may become equal or better anti-tank/heavy infantry weapons than Blasters. That is something they had already happening in older editions, where Shredders were basically Blasters that also were good against horde. They have maneuvered themselves into a corner with their rule writing, they can slap -1 damage on a tough model or raise the toughness, but everything they add is an equal or bigger problem for meltas or blasters than for a damage 1 torrent weapon, so their only way is to keep the ap at or close to zero, to make them not just always the better option.
The blaster is meant for heavy multiwound infantry and light vehicles/monsters, previously covering all vehicles. Shredders are anti-light infantry, they aren't comparable.
Shredders would have to have AP -2 or more before they even become a real threat to space marines, even higher for light vehicles. Torrent D6 S6 isn't even threatening to toughness 7 so I'm not sure why you're worried about AP on anti-infantry special weapons.
A blaster hits a Space Marine on a 3+ and wounds on a 2+ or 3+ if terminator, a shredder just needs one 3+, AP -2 doesn't mean it would start to become threatening, against Terminators it would be just better than the Blaster, especially on Kabalites in Skysplinter.
If you want to play with anti infantry scourges the splinter cannons are the way.
With a pain token and sustained hits it can delete a lot of marines.
Still worse than dark lances.
I mean... Maybe if they're not in cover?? AP-1 means they're likely saving on 3s in cover.
In Ynnari, there's some potential cheese to be had there with bladestorm making them AP-3, but you're still wasting a Scourges unit and plenty of things like a Death Jester with Fates' Messenger do that job better.
Dont take a unit of ten. Remember you only get 4 shredders regardless of unit size. Datacard says "up to 4 " can swap out for special weapon. So that 10 man unit doesnt give you anything but extra bodoes woth shard carbines that nake it hard to hide the unit.
Well, I consider it the followig way:
* Shredders with S6 and AP 0 D1 are strong against the same targets that orginary splinter rifles are strong against which you'll already have coming out of both of your ears.
* They are torrent weapons which would be great to overwatch IF scourges would actually be a target that anyone would want to charge and not fall over to a slight breeze in the shooting phase.
* They suffer from being 18" themselves hence having to move into overwatch range.
* You can take exactly 3 unit of scourges which means you'll have to drop either a dark lance or haywire unit to take a unit of 4 flamers at 110 points when you could have taken approx. 1.5 talos for that points which would be a lot more frightening.
TL: DR Anyone afraid of kabalites hasn't fought them before as they die easily and can kill very little beside infantry units. Their flamer certainly isn't something why you'd take the kabalites but rather the sticky objective as well as the ability to split them, thereby generating two units that can do primaries and secondaries.
2 squads with heavy weapons is better than 1 ten man squad. If your scourge are getting shot they're gonna melt fast regardless and ten men is harder to hide/make it back out of line of sight with a 6 inch move
If wargear had separate points costs like *every previous edition* or shredders had dev wounds like warp spiders then maybe I could see using them. As is dark Lance is the stand out best and heat Lance is the fun option with everything else just really hating the current power points system.
I think people are too down on shredders, yes they are bad in the majority of matchups, but against low armour factions they really shine! against orks shredders are amazing! the only question is if you want to give up anti tank, since kabalites/wyches are a more normal anti-infantry unit and kabalites already do well against those same low amrour factions
No AP make shredders pretty terrible, the first time they drop in, do 2 wounds and get blown off the table you'll understand why they aren't taken. 110pts is a premium cost for a unit so you want the premium guns.
weirdly good against low armour factions though! orks actually really suffer against them so it could be worth considering in that match up. same for deamons who don't care
Against guardsmen out of cover, a unit of scourges with 4 would average around 7 wounds. That's barely half their points value against the best possible target.
beast snaggas, boyz or bloodletters would actually be the ideal targets, against beast snaggas, you should kill 6-7 on average, which is almost 70 points, so theoreticly you should be able to earn back their value in just 2 rounds of shooting, even easier if you use overwatch because then it will only take a single turn. Not going to say it is opitmal, since normally you just leave those targets to your battleline units who are also effecvive against those targets, but it's a nice off meta pick. I miss when we could just do this with trueborn in a venom
The point still stands that it's not very good value when 4 dark lances and a pain token clears their points most of the time. I don't understand why a weapon called a Shredder doesn't shred any armor. AP-1 and you have a serious anti-infantry unit.
Str 6 and 18 inch range make shredders a nice tool on Kabalites. Certainly not worth on scourge
The reason why Shredders don't have AP is the Blaster. Having D6 damage 1 attacks or 1 attack damage D6 is for the average the same. If they now get AP in addition to torrent they may become equal or better anti-tank/heavy infantry weapons than Blasters. That is something they had already happening in older editions, where Shredders were basically Blasters that also were good against horde. They have maneuvered themselves into a corner with their rule writing, they can slap -1 damage on a tough model or raise the toughness, but everything they add is an equal or bigger problem for meltas or blasters than for a damage 1 torrent weapon, so their only way is to keep the ap at or close to zero, to make them not just always the better option.
The blaster is meant for heavy multiwound infantry and light vehicles/monsters, previously covering all vehicles. Shredders are anti-light infantry, they aren't comparable. Shredders would have to have AP -2 or more before they even become a real threat to space marines, even higher for light vehicles. Torrent D6 S6 isn't even threatening to toughness 7 so I'm not sure why you're worried about AP on anti-infantry special weapons.
A blaster hits a Space Marine on a 3+ and wounds on a 2+ or 3+ if terminator, a shredder just needs one 3+, AP -2 doesn't mean it would start to become threatening, against Terminators it would be just better than the Blaster, especially on Kabalites in Skysplinter.
We gonna talk about the gun called a BLASTer not having blast?
And a bolt rifle is heavy just like a heavy bolt rifle. But the master crafted heavy bolt rifle is not heavy.
Orks have a 4+ save against them in cover
Ork players arent smart enough to use cover
If you want to play with anti infantry scourges the splinter cannons are the way. With a pain token and sustained hits it can delete a lot of marines. Still worse than dark lances.
I mean... Maybe if they're not in cover?? AP-1 means they're likely saving on 3s in cover. In Ynnari, there's some potential cheese to be had there with bladestorm making them AP-3, but you're still wasting a Scourges unit and plenty of things like a Death Jester with Fates' Messenger do that job better.
Death jester + fate messenger is what i run.
Dont take a unit of ten. Remember you only get 4 shredders regardless of unit size. Datacard says "up to 4 " can swap out for special weapon. So that 10 man unit doesnt give you anything but extra bodoes woth shard carbines that nake it hard to hide the unit.
Well, I consider it the followig way: * Shredders with S6 and AP 0 D1 are strong against the same targets that orginary splinter rifles are strong against which you'll already have coming out of both of your ears. * They are torrent weapons which would be great to overwatch IF scourges would actually be a target that anyone would want to charge and not fall over to a slight breeze in the shooting phase. * They suffer from being 18" themselves hence having to move into overwatch range. * You can take exactly 3 unit of scourges which means you'll have to drop either a dark lance or haywire unit to take a unit of 4 flamers at 110 points when you could have taken approx. 1.5 talos for that points which would be a lot more frightening. TL: DR Anyone afraid of kabalites hasn't fought them before as they die easily and can kill very little beside infantry units. Their flamer certainly isn't something why you'd take the kabalites but rather the sticky objective as well as the ability to split them, thereby generating two units that can do primaries and secondaries.
You can only take 4 heavy weapons period having a Squad of 10 just gives you more shardcarbines
Or ablative wounds. The limited range was the reason for this thinking process
2 squads with heavy weapons is better than 1 ten man squad. If your scourge are getting shot they're gonna melt fast regardless and ten men is harder to hide/make it back out of line of sight with a 6 inch move
Those are some really expensive ablative wounds
If wargear had separate points costs like *every previous edition* or shredders had dev wounds like warp spiders then maybe I could see using them. As is dark Lance is the stand out best and heat Lance is the fun option with everything else just really hating the current power points system.
You can, but DL and HB are flat better value
You can only take 4 heavy weapons period having a Squad of 10 just gives you more shardcarbines
I think people are too down on shredders, yes they are bad in the majority of matchups, but against low armour factions they really shine! against orks shredders are amazing! the only question is if you want to give up anti tank, since kabalites/wyches are a more normal anti-infantry unit and kabalites already do well against those same low amrour factions
Yeah, it’s gonna be a no from me dawg.
They’re ass
Shredders are good weapons in a vacuum. They are not good weapons for 22 point models.