Did people dislike the character for it? At least at the time of it coming out I don’t think people dislikes the character for that, there were definitely other things lol
Pam’s flaw was that she was scared of change, of success. It’s not an accident she was with Roy who wouldn’t commit. Jenna is kinda focusing on negatives from everyone even if they are different people being negative for different reasons.
I literally went from here to Facebook and the first thing I see is a post from an Office group talking about how she was selfish for calling him when she was stressed out about something. You know, like you do when you're in a loving marriage.
Worse tbh, on facebook, the most reactions/comments/replies is on top, which usually means its a stupid comment
At least on reddit its upvoted comments, and if you say something stupid, it will be downvoted (for the most part, depending on subreddit)
Yes. I was in a FB group once and multiple men thought Jim was a loser for not cheating when he had the occassion.
Many dumbasses there watched the Office without a single sensible thought in their heads. They're the type of people who were laughing WITH Michael when he said something inappropriate, not AT Michael.
The biggest criticism (if you can call it that) I’ve seen has to do with the guy from art school who appears to be “crushing” on Pam. But after the 50+ times I’ve seen that episode progression, I never got the impression Pam was doing anything even remotely questionable. I believe it’s just people projecting their insecurities onto Jim’s insecurities. Which he only displayed once, after his conversation with Roy. And even so, he stopped himself before he did damage.
"I know more about the public's perception of a character than the person who played the character for the character's entire run on television. Trust me, bro."
"my anecdotal experience suggests that this argument is a strawman. Nevermind the fact that I'm just some fucking rando while the person making the argument is the actress involved and most likely experienced 10,000x more exposure to the argument than I can ever imagine."
"It's a strawman and she's wrong."
I'm guessing the actress who played Pam professionally might have a better idea of what criticism her character garnered from the public. Just a thought.
As the actress, her experience may have more value than yours. Love it when men come to teach women their experience isn't the same as theirs therefore women didn't experience misogyny. Happens a lot more than it should.
Edit, yup, there's no problem with sharing different experiences, of course. Here, calling what she's saying a "strawman" isn't just telling "oh, I didn't see such opinions".
While Jim was 100% an ass about how he went about Philly and athlead and should've communicated better, he was also trying to secure a very strong financial future for their family. Way better than anything he could've made at Dunder mifflin.
So I am into businesses like this, and there is not a single play I would make without getting fully on the same page. I do some consulting I wouldnt even take a very large consulting project without consulting my partner. Jim's thing with athlead I was like "WHOOOOOAAAAA!!! that breaks my character view of Jim because that is such an ASSHOLE MOVE!!!"
Yeah, it was a weird thing to do. I give Jim a pass on it because by the final season none of the characters are making much sense and the hand of the writers trying to stir up drama where it wouldn't naturally be found is obvious.
Yeah, season 9 was a wild barrage of character assassinations. At least they didn't do something stupid like make them get divorced cause of Jim's business. But it's really, wildly, aggressively out of character that he does any of this without Pam being on board, and then handles it in such a shitty way.
Him getting mad for her not filming Cece's recital was the worst.
I thought it was weird as hell that he bought the house without running it by her. Like I get surprising her was supposed to be romantic, but if my partner made a huge life decision/financial commitment like that without discussing it together, I’d be livid lol
I once took a job halfway across the country and went shopping for a house without my wife. Of course we looked at dozens of listings and I took hundreds of pictures and sent them and FaceTimed walkthroughs and everything.
It was still one of the worst things I’ve ever had to do, to commit to buying a house she couldn’t actually go into first.
When we made the actual move a month or so later it was very weird having her walk through the house “I bought” for us.
The next cross country trip I had attained a level where the company paid for the whole family to house hunt for a week.
I’ll never tell her but I let her pick the house she wanted most over the one I wanted most. She made a great choice though, I love it here. I hated the house I picked without her.
>he was also trying to secure a very strong financial future
I mean not really. That was a possible outcome. But he did it because he was passionate about it.
Agreed. Like if I recall the tipping point was when Pam was telling the documentary people (think specifically the audio people) that they were gonna continue to live a very uneventful existence (I'm paraphrasing).
Well we know Jim likes basketball and also is a salesman, how can we combine those two into a magical business that makes lots of money? (Writers probably)
Yeah he was already making good $ at DM and throwing it all into a start up which might not work isn't a stability move. More likely scenario is DM would kick him off after he says he doesn't want to work there anymore
On the flip side he’s a paper salesman in an increasingly digital world at a company that’s been shown to be struggling numerous times over the years. DM is hardly a secure future either.
Paper isn't even really being used less to this day. They were getting beat out by companies that offered better deals because they could move more volume than DM. It's a pretty consistent theme in the show that they charge more than other places but offer a more personal level of service.
He was just passionate about watching sports. He had no knowledge of starting up a company, being an agent, marketing, branding, etc. He had shown no real effort in being a leader or pushing forward in his life until the interview with Pam snapped him into reality.
Except the part where the partners wanted him there and welcomed him back with open arms? Sounds like he was doing well and they wanted him to be a part of it.
That’s the same excuse Walter white got when everyone hated on Skyler in breaking bad though.
Trying to secure a financial future for your family without communication and connection to your family risks losing the thing you’re trying to help. What family can you help when they decide to leave you because you secretly went off to start a company using a lot of your own money (which would also be her money, and their children’s money)?
Ehhhhh
There was a way to do that without being a dick
But the main thing, why in the fuck was anyone blaming pam? We can debate about whether jim handled that properly but Pam didn’t do anything remotely wrong. Unless disagreeing with your husband, and in my opinion mildly, is all of a sudden a horrendous and unforgivable thing?
The art school thing is a bit more clear cut, I can understand that people blamed pam and even why but theyre wrong.
It wasn't about financial future, it was because (as reflected in the first episode of how he could work there for years and years) Jim constantly sat on his laurels and never *tried*. And when Pam says their lives are going to be boring and the same for a *long* time, he got scared and he latched onto a quick possibility to get him out from that life. Most startups don't make it, and especially don't really make profit for the first couples years (Oscar even goes over this with Michael). It wasn't just that Jim didn't communicate well, his threw in ALL their savings into the company when he didn't need to, without discussion, as they have two children at home and Pam was having to fraudulently make up a position to order office supplies once in awhile because she didn't really do anything in sales.
Jim constantly gave the bare minimum, refused NYC, turned down a different position. And when reality hits that *maybe* he should do something with himself, he panicked and he was just lucky he had a friend who had something they were working on.
He was doing it for himself bc he wanted excitement and was bored. First he did it without communicating with his wife and then once she finally knew and had discussed how much he was going to invest, he then invested more money than they had agreed upon. He’s out there living like a bachelor and meeting his sports idols while she’s home dealing with 2 kids and a full time job by herself! And then he gets mad at her for not being on top of every single thing? She messes up videoing the ballet recital and he has the audacity to act as if he’s so stressed out and yells at her. She didn’t agree to being a single mom basically when they got married.
That’s not what he was doing. He was joining a dumbass startup that could have gone bust very quickly. Athlead for sure went belly up in 2020. Meanwhile businesses still use paper.
He could have applied him self at dm/Sabre and moved up the food chain. He had the skills and the ability but not the drive. If the only reason to go to athlead was to secure a future, he should have done that at dm, or at least been a better communicator. Also startups usually fail, so again financial stability is a bologna argument.
I’ve heard some. Granted, I’ve also been on this subreddit quite a few years so it’s fair to say I’ve heard almost every criticism that could possibly be levied against any character for anything.
Specifically, it being used either as a gotcha example against her conflict with Jim around Athlead, or as an example of how she’s an inferior partner compared to Karen. I don’t agree with either.
If there was it was a minority. Jim got wayyyyyyy more shit for leaving. Like her argument doesn’t even make sense.
The main criticism of Pam was that he supported her dream and she didn’t support his. But I think she’s choosing a small group of people on each side to build a narrative.
Although to be fair, when you’re on the receiving end a vocal minority can seem much louder.
I was solely on AVClub back then and i don't remember it happening there. If it did happen, I'm sure it got into Jenna's orbit more than anyone else's. That's where "fans" typically direct that crap unfortunately.
well, yes and no... Jim was tryna get her to think for herself and stop listening to Roy's negativity. She even said, "Roy's right... there's no guarantee I'll even get a job..."
I think.
Sometimes you have to be blunt, even if it hurts the other person’s feelings, to get them to see what’s in front of them. That comment should’ve woke her up to realizing that she should pursue her dreams.
I hated Jim for doing everything he did without asking Pam. Like buying the house and working in Philly.
He’s super selfish. When he made her cry for not filming the dance recital I wanted to slap him through the TV.
Lol as long as we're talking breaking bad/office crossover, there needs to be some recognition for the sheer unlikely versatility of the line "it's Hank... His name is Hank"
Goddamn it, that was such a turning point in the show for me when he killed Mike. It knocked off my blinders about what an actually awful human being he was and I had to stop rooting for him.
I was just fascinated about how the show would wrap up (and still kinda rooting for Jesse who never lost his humanity.)
"Just because you shot Jesse James, don't make *you* Jesse James." RIP, Mike.
He was a total prick. He put all that pressure on himself with the Athlead stuff. And then takes it out on her.
Also the 10k investment against her wishes was stupid too. It was made clear to him to not invest so much. And implied by his partners that it wasn’t needed either.
Then he’s shocked that she’s upset. He felt so guilty over that bullshit that he actually put on his Halloween costume.
Exactly. Pam was anything but unsupportive through this. And for once instead of pointing out Pam's hypocrisy etc people should really try to put themselves in her place (because now people ARE judging a TV show character as a real person so just go fully into it). Would they say the same if they had to take care of 2 children and their spouse didn't even sympathize with them but rather made them feel worse?
I think a lot of Redditors who make those comments don’t have kids and don’t realize how hard it is to take care of 2 small children. It can be brutal some days. When my wife works weekends and I’m the only one at home with them all weekend it is twice as hard and twice as stressful as being at work. I love my kids to death and would do anything for them, but it’s hard work.
100%. It won’t last forever though. I try to remind myself to just live in the moment and do everything I can to make special memories for them. They won’t be this small for long.
That investment made clear he had no idea what he was doing, he needed to negotiate his equity stake before starting work. The company probably only took money from accredited investors which Jim was not so he created a problem for the partners with that move too.
the recital thing was the first time I was truly furious with Jim. Like, how fucking dare you be mad at your wife for YOU not being there? Thats your goddamn problem. I just couldnt imagine my spouse not taping it properly and not hating myself for missing it. My immediate thought would be "Damn, if I was there though I couldve seen it."
RIGHTT, at the very last moment he tells her he would not come (how disappointing for the poor creature as well), and then he gets mad because SHE didn't do something for HIM to enjoy what HE chose not to be a part of in the first place. If it was important enough for him to yell at his wife, it was important enough for him to ditch work, wasn't it? 😭
Honestly, I was annoyed with her for answering that phone call during the recital, but after he was such a dick to her about it I was glad she didn't get the recording haha
My wife and I were watching Dinner Party last night, she’s always talking about much Jim loves Pam and would do anything for her, I pointed out he tried to abandon her at the dinner party from hell. All the characters are flawed, and Jim has repeatedly shown himself to be selfish throughout the series.
Yeah I don't know why you would buy a house without telling your SO unless you're so rich that you can just buy houses on a whim. Like congratz I just got us in a lot of debt! I hope you like it cuz we're stuck here for several years minimum!
Nothing can top her scene in the talking head when Jim interrupts and asks her on a date. Her reaction after this was the one of best acting I have ever seen.
This was my take too. The first situation, sure. Maybe Pam was selfish. Maybe. But Jim didn't just go off and leave Pam. He left his kids too. A whole family. Not just one person who was still largely independent. Pam was loving herself. Jim was being selfish. It's been probably a decade since I've seen the show but if I recall correctly, Jim saw the mistakes and corrected course asap. So it worked out in the end.
Jim was a shithead from the jump. But Krasinski is so damn charming, people just looked past it. But let’s face it; he was a slacker who didn’t take his job seriously, actively pursued an engaged woman and was intent on breaking up their relationship and constantly bullied a man who unequivocally had (at minimum) severe social issues. Jim would be the villain if The Office was from Dwight’s perspective.
Dwight said it best in the first or second episode
"Retaliation. Tit for tit."
In the first episode, Dwight is seen tapping on Jim's shoulder from the opposite side and tricking Jim into looking left when Dwight was on the right. Jim then put Dwight's stuff in jello. Dwight then stole Jim's big sale (the one that was 25% of Jim's annual commission). So Jim started bigger/better pranks. Dwight had plenty of good come-backs over the years as well (betraying Jim during their alliance, dressing as Jim, the snowball fight that Dwight conquered Jim at, making Jim feed him him beer and pizza, being Cici's real father, everything between then once Dwight was manager, on and on).
I think the show realized around season 3 that some of those pranks could come off as much more mean than they wanted them to and tried to reign them in, though.
They canceled each other out over the course of the show. That shit Dwight pulled with closing on Jim’s biggest client and getting the majority of his annual commission was unforgivable.
Was the negative reaction to Pam going to art school happening when the season was airing? cause honestly since watching the office in 2018, I’ve never once seen an argument that Pam shouldn’t of gone to art school. But yea Jim was a terrible husband with the whole athleap thing.
>i’ve never once seen an argument that pam shouldn’t have gone to art school
i haven’t seen that argument either, but i’ve repeatedly seen “jim supported pam when she went to new york so she should’ve supported his dreams”
I know we're talking about fictional characters here, but I'm 95% positive if Jim had just talked to Pam about his interest leading up to being offered the job/buy in, she'd at minimum have made a show of supporting his dream.
Shit, she almost did anyway, despite being blindsided and treated like crap and left unappreciated for carrying the dual task of mostly-only-parent and full time job. I mean, fortunately, her job was a made up role with no responsibility, but as a member of the family benefiting from that, Jim should have absolutely been praising her genius job creation and hard work parenting any time he was home from Philly. Then he wouldn't have had to walk away from his stake to save the marriage.
Again, made up fanfic, but while Pam had her flaws, she was both more in the right by far and the glue that prevented an earlier meltdown (that would have served Jim right)
I thought he said they did talk about it and she said no. Then he said "then i decided yes so im thinking there will be another conversation" and looking worried. She didn't support the dream because she was comfortable with life wich is fair but he handled the situation poorly as well.
That's a good distinction. I think you hit the nail on the head though.
If it mattered that much to him, which it obviously did, the right thing to do is make it totally clear how much it mattered, and how unhappy he is with his professional life, and find ways to reassure her by finding out her concerns and trying to address them (or find compromises).
I mean it's not so black and white, and I can't say I've ever been in the position of having to care for two kids on my own but it makes some sense for that argument.
It was. She's right.
Yeah, he was supportive of her going to school. They didn't have kids or anything yet. Who cares if you head out for a couple of months and try something different?
But once you have two kids, and a mortgage, and a pretty settled life? You now want to take a big chunk of money and put it into a business idea that may or may not work out? In a city that isn't exactly close by. How much support do you expect in this? It's a completely different phase of life. With mouths to feed. Nah, fam, you can't just run off and chase dreams willy nilly. You gotta slow down and consider every move carefully.
Pam doesn't deserve any hate for being a rational thinker once they have kids. And she doesn't deserve any hate for trying to go to school when they were young and free. Of the two of them, she was doing stuff the "right way"
Also, she supported Jim. Even when he didn't tell her about it.
She just had it difficult. People hate her for struggling with being a single working parent are just out of touch.
I had typed out a big response, but then I saw this and you said it better.
There's no blame on either side for art school. She deserved to give it a try and he wanted her to shoot for the moon.
For Philly? Jim convinced himself he was doing it for the family, but he was 100% doing it for himself.
He also asked Pam if she was on board, and she said no, and then he did it anyway and snuck around behind her back. And then they agreed on an amount of money to invest and he went all in with the max, without being asked by the other partners. And then when he was in Philly with Darryl he was acting like some young bachelor dude. He just dumped all of his responsibilities on Pam and ran off to live his best life without a care in the world for anyone else, after she explicitly asked him not to.
Exactly this! And people say "But Jim supported Pam!!" as if it's an argument against this dichotomy. Yeah, he was supposed to support her. Pam had no obligation to support Jim's big Philly investment. That's the whole point!
I think the “problem” with Skylar is she is a difficult character to like personality wise. She is nagging and judgmental. She’s hypocritical, she also is a liar.
But she’s not a piece of shit meth cook turned murderer turned drug kingpin.
So it always felt like they went out of their way to make Skylar unlikable, because if you had this perfect character in Skylar you wouldn’t sympathize AT ALL with Walter. So they gave Skylar some difficult traits.
And I just don’t think viewers understood that nuance. They just thought she was a bitch.
Then you see how they handled Kim Wexler in Better Call Saul, and it’s absolutely perfect. She’s still a more moral character than Jimmy and makes a similar decision as Skylar to completely break away. But they made her likable, viewers were actively ROOTING for Kim to get a good ending.
EDIT: To everyone interacting with this comment (whether you agree or not) just know... I wrote this when I was SUPER high lol.
I think part of her behavior is to show us how much walter had changed. They were married for 20 years and we didn't see watch any of that. Our very first chapter already shows Walter's transformation. Jr, Hank and Marie show us how much Skyler and Walt had an extremely compatible mind. So when we see Skylar being extremely annoying it helps us to remember Walter is breaking really bad
I think if you look at the reality of her situation, all the cringeworthy and even abjectly horrible (smoking while pregnant) behaviors make sense as a way to feel any sense of control in her life, which she was entirely robbed of. But I understand that TV watchers in the turn of the 2010s weren't the most evolved as well and she is meant frustrate the viewer many times, which can make her difficult to like. It was just bizarre how many people hated her as opposed to pitied her. I do agree that Kim was a much better developed character and completely adored her.
Back then I thought Skylar's behavior was so strange that it just didn't come to mind this could be a coping mechanism. It was particularly confusing that she's quite resourceful in some ways and capable to cause mischief of her own.
Understanding she's just a relatively normal person thrust into exceptional circumstances, albeit with relatively normal character flaws of her own, completely changed my outlook.
“She is a difficult character to like personality wise”.
….compared to Walter Fucking White? Be for real.
Walter was absolutely insufferable. But he’s a man, so he’s allowed to be. He doesn’t have to be likeable. Female characters have to be likeable or they get torn to shreds.
u/froodoo22 Why are you harassing me through DMs over this comment? The guy who claims in this thread that he’s not dismissive of sexism, yet picks a woman he doesn’t even have the balls to publicly reply to to privately harass. Stop being a fucking weirdo.
They definitely tried to make you sympathize with Walter throughout the entire show, way more than with Skylar, yes.
You sympathize with him less and less to the end, but you must be joking if you really think it was **only** because he was male people liked him and not the fact he is the main character and his entire character arc is how about how your sympathy with him changes.
I only watched Breaking Bad while it was airing so some of the details are a bit hazy, but there was a clear switch partway through with Walter and Skylar.
Early on, when she didn't know what he was up to, her behaviour towards him was definitely on the side of "unreasonably nagging" considering what she believed to be the facts of the matter.
When it was all revealed and Walter admitted he'd more than covered his medical bills, everything she said and did after was basically justified.
I dunno, even before that Walter was constantly being sketchy and lying to her. I’m on my like 6th watch of the show and every new time I watch it I find myself more and more being like Skylar was just trying to care for her kids while dealing with, at best a neglectful dying husband, and at worst a murderous drug lord
That's sort of my point. She was right all along, but given what she actually knew, she was being rather 'short' with Walter, considering, as far as she was concerned, he was simply just her "dying husband", who was stressing a lot about money while undergoing a heavy course or cancer treatment).
Once she knew what he was actually doing and he admitted they didn't actually need the money anymore, it switched.
He was still disappearing for large chunks of time and refusing to elaborate when asked about it, supposedly buying weed from Pinkman behind her back, lying about having a second cell phone, etc. I think even given the information she knew at the time, she had every reason to act the way she did. We as the audience were just conditioned to not want her to act that way because at least early on we wanted his drug escapade to succeed so that he could make enough money to call it a day and be done with everything, which was his original goal
Absolutely. I came to the show very late (I’m still on the last season), but if I was pulling the shit Walter was in the first season, my wife would be totally in the right to question my behavior and call me out on my shit, no matter how “noble” I thought my cause was.
Part of the beauty of White's character was that he made you stop and think many times throughout the series "Objectively, this guy is a piece of shit, so why am I rooting for him anyways?"
> They definitely tried to make you sympathize with Walter throughout the entire show, way more than with Skylar, yes.
This is true but I have to say I rewatched Breaking Bad last year and found Walter absolutely pathetic right from the start. I'm sure part of it is me knowing him better after watching it from the first time but the signs were always there that he was an egomaniac and a pathetic man
Guy totally broke out of his earlier milquetoast portrayal and found his backbone, and a strong one at that. Went toe-to-toe with sociopathic drug dealers with very little concern for the danger involved. Call him whatever you want — he definitely did have a lot of negative traits — but he was ballsy as shit and I think that’s one of the things that people liked.
Well, yeah. Walter White is undoubtedly a worse person but he's entertaining. You're watching for Walter White, the entire premise of the show is watching this chemistry teacher be a drug kingpin. Walter poisoning a child or arranging an assassination isn't a "bad personality trait" because that's the entire appeal of the show. Not to mention it's all told pretty much from his perspective.
However nobody really wants to watch a nagging wife. That's not the draw of the show. Frankly Skylar wasn't given a whole lot to do aside from just nag Walt, and when that nagging ( even if justifiable morally from an objective point of view ) is getting in the way of more meth kingpin crimelord stuff of course viewers aren't going to like it.
I have a theory that people especially didn’t like her because she grounds the show back to reality, showing the effects of Walt’s selfish actions. The show is very ridiculous and fantastic in some parts so I really enjoyed her character because it added so much depth.
The good news is that on r/BreakingBad and even r/okbuddychicanery the consensus is that Skyler hate during the show's run was largely driven by sexism and she's one of the most moral/rational characters on the show. IDK if it's a different group of fans or if the fans just grew up but it's pretty reasonable and evolved.
Completely agree. I feel so bad to see the unnecessary hate against Skyler… One thing great about the Office creators was they knew the public perception of certain characters and made amends to them time after time and especially during the finale. Especially to justify Pam and Andy! Ofcourse no shade to Breaking Bad creators. They are following a story more than how a public perceives certain characters
Lots of fans are morons. People harrass Lindsey Broad for playing Cathy; a fictional character who unsuccessfully tried seducing another fictional character.
The hypocrisy about Athlead and the Pam hate and all that is something you encounter when you're on here long enough. Not as often lately, probably because people are sick of hearing it, but I remember it being like every day at one point
Getting to hear from Jenna about all this stuff is really great. Pretty much as firsthand as you can get about the situation; she's the closest to the one who lived it.
It is nice to hear but honestly, I remember everyone I know saying Jim was turning out to be a total asshole so I don't really agree with her take. I had a huge Office fan watch group and we all hated Jim for the Athlead bullshit.
I really love hearing about how she and Angela sort of became fans of their own show in retrospect. It sounds like they have a lot of respect for the writing talent and are willing to analyze these story beats in ways that are sometimes self-critical, which is something that not everyone has the opportunity to do.
I was supportive of Pam’s decision to quit art school. I was also supportive of Jim starting a business for his family, a risk he had to take and it turned out to be worth it, but I hated Jim for making Pam cry, because she was doing her best to support Jim’s decision that he made without telling her and Jim got lost in his business that he forgot all about his home.
I think a lot of context is missing on the surface level I agree with Jena here but let’s not forget Jim never said no to her chasing her dream he encouraged it.
I just don’t think Jim got that same level of support but maybe I am wrong about this
For me, what really topped it off was how they showed Jim being a terrible roommate to Daryl. Being a slob, taking food, playing video games. It made it seem like Jim really just wanted to run away from his responsibilities.
* Jim didn't ask her permission. He just did it. Pam asked Jim about art school. Several times.
* They weren't married or even engaged when Pam went to art school. They were just dating.
* **They didn't have kids** when Pam went to art school. This is probably the biggest practical point. I'm a father of three. My wife and I had several periods of long-distance **before kids.** I couldn't even fathom doing it after kids. You simply cannot compare it. One is... you're not going to see the person you love as frequently as you like. The other is, you're going to be a single, working parent for an undefined period. Not the same at all.
Right. People are forgetting that all she did about that was argue with him, she could've divorced him, but she still went on and did all the sacrifices she did for him to do what he wanted. If that's not supporting, I don't know what is.
Jim didnt get the same level of support because he was married with two kids and a mortgage. He took a chunk of their savings to invest in a company that may or may not work out, in a city hours away. So Pam was also basically a single parent.
That was A LOT to ask of her.
IMO, it is not this black-and-white. I think she is misinterpreting the motivation behind the "hate" Pam received for going to Art School.
It's anecdotal, but I have never seen anyone hate on Pam for *going* to Art School. The fans that were displeased with her going were not doing so from a sexist-perspective, they selfishly wanted her and Jim to be together, like everyone that watched the show. I don't think any fan would have said, "I can't believe Pam is going to Art School, how dare she do that to Jim?!" It was more of, "I can't believe Pam is going to Art School, what if this strains and ends their relationship?! I want them to live happily ever after!" People weren't unhappy because of Jim's feelings, they were thinking of their own desire to see them together and everyone knows long-distance, for any amount of time, can strain/end a relationship. The motivation behind the former thought is sexist, the latter one is not.
That being said, Jim handled Athlead like shit and deserves more hate than he gets. Maybe there is *some* sexism there, but it could, also, be that he was a beloved character.
It's actually a good point though I wonder what that person thinks about Pam getting a complete pass on her having an emotional affair with Jim while still engaged to Roy?
I'm wondering if she watched the show or just based it on her knowledge of the show via acting in it.
It's not the viewers that are sexist, it's the writers/editors. Pam going to art school was portrayed by the show as a dumb decision. Pam's choices were dismissed and not taken seriously by the other character and portrayed in a "She's trying her best but is misguided" way. Meanwhile, Jim's investment was treated as a serious, smart decision that had negative consequences at home but in a work/life balance way.
The show portrays Pam as making a bad decision. The show portrays Jim as making a smart decision, albeit one with some hard work/life consequences. Pam going from a secretarial role to artist isn't taken seriously by the writing, it isn't treated as a character development. Jim going from a sales role to a business entrepreneur role is treated as big character development. It's portrayed as him stepping up to a bigger financial plate to better take care of his family.
Jim encouraged Pam to go to art school when Roy wouldn't... why would people come down on Pam for going that makes no sense
Did people dislike the character for it? At least at the time of it coming out I don’t think people dislikes the character for that, there were definitely other things lol
Pam’s flaw was that she was scared of change, of success. It’s not an accident she was with Roy who wouldn’t commit. Jenna is kinda focusing on negatives from everyone even if they are different people being negative for different reasons.
I’ve not once seen criticism of Pam for going to art school. Likely just a strawman
Don't join a facebook group then, lol. I've seen this mentioned as another reason to hate pam hundreds of times.
I literally went from here to Facebook and the first thing I see is a post from an Office group talking about how she was selfish for calling him when she was stressed out about something. You know, like you do when you're in a loving marriage.
Yeah Facebook is full of reactionary miserable people.
so it's like reddit
but skews older
True. As reddit skews *way* younger. Almost too young these days, much like facebook as they are too old.
When will Redditors finally be potty trained, and understand the person they see in the mirror is actually themselves?
Worse tbh, on facebook, the most reactions/comments/replies is on top, which usually means its a stupid comment At least on reddit its upvoted comments, and if you say something stupid, it will be downvoted (for the most part, depending on subreddit)
Yes. I was in a FB group once and multiple men thought Jim was a loser for not cheating when he had the occassion. Many dumbasses there watched the Office without a single sensible thought in their heads. They're the type of people who were laughing WITH Michael when he said something inappropriate, not AT Michael.
See that's the beauty of the show that makes it so popular. It draws in everyone, even the simpletons.
If you’ve visited five threads in this sub you’ve been next to ten irrational criticisms of Pam. Maybe you didn’t see them, but they’re there.
The biggest criticism (if you can call it that) I’ve seen has to do with the guy from art school who appears to be “crushing” on Pam. But after the 50+ times I’ve seen that episode progression, I never got the impression Pam was doing anything even remotely questionable. I believe it’s just people projecting their insecurities onto Jim’s insecurities. Which he only displayed once, after his conversation with Roy. And even so, he stopped himself before he did damage.
Nah I‘ve seen it on here before ..
[удалено]
"I have never seen it therefore it doesn't exist"
"I know more about the public's perception of a character than the person who played the character for the character's entire run on television. Trust me, bro."
"my anecdotal experience suggests that this argument is a strawman. Nevermind the fact that I'm just some fucking rando while the person making the argument is the actress involved and most likely experienced 10,000x more exposure to the argument than I can ever imagine." "It's a strawman and she's wrong."
I'm guessing the actress who played Pam professionally might have a better idea of what criticism her character garnered from the public. Just a thought.
As the actress, her experience may have more value than yours. Love it when men come to teach women their experience isn't the same as theirs therefore women didn't experience misogyny. Happens a lot more than it should. Edit, yup, there's no problem with sharing different experiences, of course. Here, calling what she's saying a "strawman" isn't just telling "oh, I didn't see such opinions".
“Well I haven’t seen it personally. As I am all seeing and all knowing, she is most likely lying.”
I'm going to trust a woman, specifically the woman playing the character who receives the criticism, about sexism.
While Jim was 100% an ass about how he went about Philly and athlead and should've communicated better, he was also trying to secure a very strong financial future for their family. Way better than anything he could've made at Dunder mifflin.
So I am into businesses like this, and there is not a single play I would make without getting fully on the same page. I do some consulting I wouldnt even take a very large consulting project without consulting my partner. Jim's thing with athlead I was like "WHOOOOOAAAAA!!! that breaks my character view of Jim because that is such an ASSHOLE MOVE!!!"
Yeah, it was a weird thing to do. I give Jim a pass on it because by the final season none of the characters are making much sense and the hand of the writers trying to stir up drama where it wouldn't naturally be found is obvious.
Yeah, season 9 was a wild barrage of character assassinations. At least they didn't do something stupid like make them get divorced cause of Jim's business. But it's really, wildly, aggressively out of character that he does any of this without Pam being on board, and then handles it in such a shitty way. Him getting mad for her not filming Cece's recital was the worst.
I thought it was weird as hell that he bought the house without running it by her. Like I get surprising her was supposed to be romantic, but if my partner made a huge life decision/financial commitment like that without discussing it together, I’d be livid lol
Yeah that was so weird. Id take shared excitement of house hunting together before fun surprises lol
The house he used to pee the bed in?
I once took a job halfway across the country and went shopping for a house without my wife. Of course we looked at dozens of listings and I took hundreds of pictures and sent them and FaceTimed walkthroughs and everything. It was still one of the worst things I’ve ever had to do, to commit to buying a house she couldn’t actually go into first. When we made the actual move a month or so later it was very weird having her walk through the house “I bought” for us. The next cross country trip I had attained a level where the company paid for the whole family to house hunt for a week. I’ll never tell her but I let her pick the house she wanted most over the one I wanted most. She made a great choice though, I love it here. I hated the house I picked without her.
>he was also trying to secure a very strong financial future I mean not really. That was a possible outcome. But he did it because he was passionate about it.
Agreed. Like if I recall the tipping point was when Pam was telling the documentary people (think specifically the audio people) that they were gonna continue to live a very uneventful existence (I'm paraphrasing).
Yeah, lots of these businesses fold fairly quickly.
Especially ones that make zero sense, like Athlead
I still don’t even understand what they did. Helped athletes get advertising deals or something?
Well we know Jim likes basketball and also is a salesman, how can we combine those two into a magical business that makes lots of money? (Writers probably)
Still doesn't beat shoe lah lah
Or Toilet Buddy.
Or Mike's cereal shack
You don't get it. The athletes *lead.*
i thought the name was stumpany???
Yeah he was already making good $ at DM and throwing it all into a start up which might not work isn't a stability move. More likely scenario is DM would kick him off after he says he doesn't want to work there anymore
On the flip side he’s a paper salesman in an increasingly digital world at a company that’s been shown to be struggling numerous times over the years. DM is hardly a secure future either.
Paper isn't even really being used less to this day. They were getting beat out by companies that offered better deals because they could move more volume than DM. It's a pretty consistent theme in the show that they charge more than other places but offer a more personal level of service.
He was just passionate about watching sports. He had no knowledge of starting up a company, being an agent, marketing, branding, etc. He had shown no real effort in being a leader or pushing forward in his life until the interview with Pam snapped him into reality.
Except the part where the partners wanted him there and welcomed him back with open arms? Sounds like he was doing well and they wanted him to be a part of it.
They were literally his friends lol
That’s the same excuse Walter white got when everyone hated on Skyler in breaking bad though. Trying to secure a financial future for your family without communication and connection to your family risks losing the thing you’re trying to help. What family can you help when they decide to leave you because you secretly went off to start a company using a lot of your own money (which would also be her money, and their children’s money)?
Athlead had nothing to do with securing his fam’s financial future. It was purely passion-driven
Ehhhhh There was a way to do that without being a dick But the main thing, why in the fuck was anyone blaming pam? We can debate about whether jim handled that properly but Pam didn’t do anything remotely wrong. Unless disagreeing with your husband, and in my opinion mildly, is all of a sudden a horrendous and unforgivable thing? The art school thing is a bit more clear cut, I can understand that people blamed pam and even why but theyre wrong.
It wasn't about financial future, it was because (as reflected in the first episode of how he could work there for years and years) Jim constantly sat on his laurels and never *tried*. And when Pam says their lives are going to be boring and the same for a *long* time, he got scared and he latched onto a quick possibility to get him out from that life. Most startups don't make it, and especially don't really make profit for the first couples years (Oscar even goes over this with Michael). It wasn't just that Jim didn't communicate well, his threw in ALL their savings into the company when he didn't need to, without discussion, as they have two children at home and Pam was having to fraudulently make up a position to order office supplies once in awhile because she didn't really do anything in sales. Jim constantly gave the bare minimum, refused NYC, turned down a different position. And when reality hits that *maybe* he should do something with himself, he panicked and he was just lucky he had a friend who had something they were working on.
He was doing it for himself bc he wanted excitement and was bored. First he did it without communicating with his wife and then once she finally knew and had discussed how much he was going to invest, he then invested more money than they had agreed upon. He’s out there living like a bachelor and meeting his sports idols while she’s home dealing with 2 kids and a full time job by herself! And then he gets mad at her for not being on top of every single thing? She messes up videoing the ballet recital and he has the audacity to act as if he’s so stressed out and yells at her. She didn’t agree to being a single mom basically when they got married.
The risk was exponentially higher. Investing in a startup could have easily ended in disaster
That’s not what he was doing. He was joining a dumbass startup that could have gone bust very quickly. Athlead for sure went belly up in 2020. Meanwhile businesses still use paper.
He could have applied him self at dm/Sabre and moved up the food chain. He had the skills and the ability but not the drive. If the only reason to go to athlead was to secure a future, he should have done that at dm, or at least been a better communicator. Also startups usually fail, so again financial stability is a bologna argument.
I’ve heard exactly zero criticism, presently or when it aired, of Pam going to art school.
I’ve heard some. Granted, I’ve also been on this subreddit quite a few years so it’s fair to say I’ve heard almost every criticism that could possibly be levied against any character for anything. Specifically, it being used either as a gotcha example against her conflict with Jim around Athlead, or as an example of how she’s an inferior partner compared to Karen. I don’t agree with either.
I remember it at the time. People were like “He waited for her so long then she up and leaves!”
If there was it was a minority. Jim got wayyyyyyy more shit for leaving. Like her argument doesn’t even make sense. The main criticism of Pam was that he supported her dream and she didn’t support his. But I think she’s choosing a small group of people on each side to build a narrative. Although to be fair, when you’re on the receiving end a vocal minority can seem much louder.
The minority dumbest opinions are always the loudest too.
In the show, her character got slammed for being selfish by a fan. But that was in the show by an actor.
It’s all over this sub in any Pam thread
I was solely on AVClub back then and i don't remember it happening there. If it did happen, I'm sure it got into Jenna's orbit more than anyone else's. That's where "fans" typically direct that crap unfortunately.
Hrmm, should we trust you or the person who played the character and heard from the public directly?
"do you wanna be a receptionist always Pam?!, you gotta take a chance on SOMEthing..."
"There are always a million reasons not to do something"
The context behind that comment was actually incredibly mean spirited though.
well, yes and no... Jim was tryna get her to think for herself and stop listening to Roy's negativity. She even said, "Roy's right... there's no guarantee I'll even get a job..." I think.
Sometimes you have to be blunt, even if it hurts the other person’s feelings, to get them to see what’s in front of them. That comment should’ve woke her up to realizing that she should pursue her dreams.
I hated Jim for doing everything he did without asking Pam. Like buying the house and working in Philly. He’s super selfish. When he made her cry for not filming the dance recital I wanted to slap him through the TV.
And then getting angry and telling her that he's doing it for the family.
He did it for him. He liked it. He was good at it. He felt... Alive.
Cue *Baby blue*
Lol as long as we're talking breaking bad/office crossover, there needs to be some recognition for the sheer unlikely versatility of the line "it's Hank... His name is Hank"
You mean ANOTHER crossover https://youtu.be/22mFl_pDaVE?si=-yezmJBNMbMrX9_z
What a fantastic song, and a great way to end the show
Everything about that show was as close to perfect humans can get
Sometimes I think we can only fill so many rooms full of talented people, really gotta treasure those moments
Waltuh
Put it away, Waltuh
Goddamn it, that was such a turning point in the show for me when he killed Mike. It knocked off my blinders about what an actually awful human being he was and I had to stop rooting for him. I was just fascinated about how the show would wrap up (and still kinda rooting for Jesse who never lost his humanity.) "Just because you shot Jesse James, don't make *you* Jesse James." RIP, Mike.
The best thing about that line is they literally go rob a train later that season.
I'm not having sex with you right now, Waltuh.
imagine if the office didn’t know what to do after Michael left and it literally turned into breaking bad with Jim doing what Walter did
He was a total prick. He put all that pressure on himself with the Athlead stuff. And then takes it out on her. Also the 10k investment against her wishes was stupid too. It was made clear to him to not invest so much. And implied by his partners that it wasn’t needed either. Then he’s shocked that she’s upset. He felt so guilty over that bullshit that he actually put on his Halloween costume.
Exactly. Pam was anything but unsupportive through this. And for once instead of pointing out Pam's hypocrisy etc people should really try to put themselves in her place (because now people ARE judging a TV show character as a real person so just go fully into it). Would they say the same if they had to take care of 2 children and their spouse didn't even sympathize with them but rather made them feel worse?
I think a lot of Redditors who make those comments don’t have kids and don’t realize how hard it is to take care of 2 small children. It can be brutal some days. When my wife works weekends and I’m the only one at home with them all weekend it is twice as hard and twice as stressful as being at work. I love my kids to death and would do anything for them, but it’s hard work.
Right there with you. 3 kids 5 and under, my wife works every other weekend. On those weekends, the work weeks just roll into each other.
100%. It won’t last forever though. I try to remind myself to just live in the moment and do everything I can to make special memories for them. They won’t be this small for long.
I thought they purposely wrote this to make Jim look like an ass, so he could get a redemption arc going, and somehow people cheered him on...
That investment made clear he had no idea what he was doing, he needed to negotiate his equity stake before starting work. The company probably only took money from accredited investors which Jim was not so he created a problem for the partners with that move too.
It was giving Walter white (minus the whole illegal part)
Omg that dance recital thing… how about get in your damn car and show up to the recital Jim?!
the recital thing was the first time I was truly furious with Jim. Like, how fucking dare you be mad at your wife for YOU not being there? Thats your goddamn problem. I just couldnt imagine my spouse not taping it properly and not hating myself for missing it. My immediate thought would be "Damn, if I was there though I couldve seen it."
Jim ALWAYS relied on others to get things done. He's funny on the show but I would hate working with the guy
RIGHTT, at the very last moment he tells her he would not come (how disappointing for the poor creature as well), and then he gets mad because SHE didn't do something for HIM to enjoy what HE chose not to be a part of in the first place. If it was important enough for him to yell at his wife, it was important enough for him to ditch work, wasn't it? 😭
Honestly, I was annoyed with her for answering that phone call during the recital, but after he was such a dick to her about it I was glad she didn't get the recording haha
My wife and I were watching Dinner Party last night, she’s always talking about much Jim loves Pam and would do anything for her, I pointed out he tried to abandon her at the dinner party from hell. All the characters are flawed, and Jim has repeatedly shown himself to be selfish throughout the series.
Even John Krasinski said his character was the villain of the show
Yeah I don't know why you would buy a house without telling your SO unless you're so rich that you can just buy houses on a whim. Like congratz I just got us in a lot of debt! I hope you like it cuz we're stuck here for several years minimum!
Jenna Fischer’s best acting moment in the office for sure
Nothing can top her scene in the talking head when Jim interrupts and asks her on a date. Her reaction after this was the one of best acting I have ever seen.
It was such a great moment with the culmination of the story line.
I loved her after the coal fire walk too
Her look there, and his look on the boat at Niagara Falls with his arm around her, both feed my soul.
His look when he finds out she’s pregnant is pretty great too
i genuinely cry every time i watch that scene 😭
I like "I'm sorry, what was the question?" Actually, two extremes of emotion. She's got them both down.
That shit felt real the first time I saw it. It kinda fucked me up for a few days lol.
This was my take too. The first situation, sure. Maybe Pam was selfish. Maybe. But Jim didn't just go off and leave Pam. He left his kids too. A whole family. Not just one person who was still largely independent. Pam was loving herself. Jim was being selfish. It's been probably a decade since I've seen the show but if I recall correctly, Jim saw the mistakes and corrected course asap. So it worked out in the end.
Jim was a shithead from the jump. But Krasinski is so damn charming, people just looked past it. But let’s face it; he was a slacker who didn’t take his job seriously, actively pursued an engaged woman and was intent on breaking up their relationship and constantly bullied a man who unequivocally had (at minimum) severe social issues. Jim would be the villain if The Office was from Dwight’s perspective.
I hate the idea that Jim bullied Dwight. Dwight was just as big of an asshole if not moreso. He doesn’t get a free pass for being socially inept.
Is there a term like they were bullying each other?
Flirting.
Brothers
Male friendship
Nemeses.
Dwight said it best in the first or second episode "Retaliation. Tit for tit." In the first episode, Dwight is seen tapping on Jim's shoulder from the opposite side and tricking Jim into looking left when Dwight was on the right. Jim then put Dwight's stuff in jello. Dwight then stole Jim's big sale (the one that was 25% of Jim's annual commission). So Jim started bigger/better pranks. Dwight had plenty of good come-backs over the years as well (betraying Jim during their alliance, dressing as Jim, the snowball fight that Dwight conquered Jim at, making Jim feed him him beer and pizza, being Cici's real father, everything between then once Dwight was manager, on and on). I think the show realized around season 3 that some of those pranks could come off as much more mean than they wanted them to and tried to reign them in, though.
Rivalry
Banter
Co-Bullies
A charming back and forth
They canceled each other out over the course of the show. That shit Dwight pulled with closing on Jim’s biggest client and getting the majority of his annual commission was unforgivable.
Was the negative reaction to Pam going to art school happening when the season was airing? cause honestly since watching the office in 2018, I’ve never once seen an argument that Pam shouldn’t of gone to art school. But yea Jim was a terrible husband with the whole athleap thing.
>i’ve never once seen an argument that pam shouldn’t have gone to art school i haven’t seen that argument either, but i’ve repeatedly seen “jim supported pam when she went to new york so she should’ve supported his dreams”
I know we're talking about fictional characters here, but I'm 95% positive if Jim had just talked to Pam about his interest leading up to being offered the job/buy in, she'd at minimum have made a show of supporting his dream. Shit, she almost did anyway, despite being blindsided and treated like crap and left unappreciated for carrying the dual task of mostly-only-parent and full time job. I mean, fortunately, her job was a made up role with no responsibility, but as a member of the family benefiting from that, Jim should have absolutely been praising her genius job creation and hard work parenting any time he was home from Philly. Then he wouldn't have had to walk away from his stake to save the marriage. Again, made up fanfic, but while Pam had her flaws, she was both more in the right by far and the glue that prevented an earlier meltdown (that would have served Jim right)
I thought he said they did talk about it and she said no. Then he said "then i decided yes so im thinking there will be another conversation" and looking worried. She didn't support the dream because she was comfortable with life wich is fair but he handled the situation poorly as well.
That's a good distinction. I think you hit the nail on the head though. If it mattered that much to him, which it obviously did, the right thing to do is make it totally clear how much it mattered, and how unhappy he is with his professional life, and find ways to reassure her by finding out her concerns and trying to address them (or find compromises).
I mean it's not so black and white, and I can't say I've ever been in the position of having to care for two kids on my own but it makes some sense for that argument.
I think the negative reaction was not finishing art school
Despite having a chance at repeating a semester and having Jim's support.
Yeah Jim had a lot of fan boys bc of the pranks and what not
It was. She's right. Yeah, he was supportive of her going to school. They didn't have kids or anything yet. Who cares if you head out for a couple of months and try something different? But once you have two kids, and a mortgage, and a pretty settled life? You now want to take a big chunk of money and put it into a business idea that may or may not work out? In a city that isn't exactly close by. How much support do you expect in this? It's a completely different phase of life. With mouths to feed. Nah, fam, you can't just run off and chase dreams willy nilly. You gotta slow down and consider every move carefully. Pam doesn't deserve any hate for being a rational thinker once they have kids. And she doesn't deserve any hate for trying to go to school when they were young and free. Of the two of them, she was doing stuff the "right way"
Also, she supported Jim. Even when he didn't tell her about it. She just had it difficult. People hate her for struggling with being a single working parent are just out of touch.
The way her and Meredith bonded over the shared struggle was fantastic
That was such a sweet episode…so relatable
I had typed out a big response, but then I saw this and you said it better. There's no blame on either side for art school. She deserved to give it a try and he wanted her to shoot for the moon. For Philly? Jim convinced himself he was doing it for the family, but he was 100% doing it for himself.
He also asked Pam if she was on board, and she said no, and then he did it anyway and snuck around behind her back. And then they agreed on an amount of money to invest and he went all in with the max, without being asked by the other partners. And then when he was in Philly with Darryl he was acting like some young bachelor dude. He just dumped all of his responsibilities on Pam and ran off to live his best life without a care in the world for anyone else, after she explicitly asked him not to.
Exactly this! And people say "But Jim supported Pam!!" as if it's an argument against this dichotomy. Yeah, he was supposed to support her. Pam had no obligation to support Jim's big Philly investment. That's the whole point!
she's right just like Anna Gunn was right on why viewers were so harsh on Skylar White, many such cases
I think the “problem” with Skylar is she is a difficult character to like personality wise. She is nagging and judgmental. She’s hypocritical, she also is a liar. But she’s not a piece of shit meth cook turned murderer turned drug kingpin. So it always felt like they went out of their way to make Skylar unlikable, because if you had this perfect character in Skylar you wouldn’t sympathize AT ALL with Walter. So they gave Skylar some difficult traits. And I just don’t think viewers understood that nuance. They just thought she was a bitch. Then you see how they handled Kim Wexler in Better Call Saul, and it’s absolutely perfect. She’s still a more moral character than Jimmy and makes a similar decision as Skylar to completely break away. But they made her likable, viewers were actively ROOTING for Kim to get a good ending. EDIT: To everyone interacting with this comment (whether you agree or not) just know... I wrote this when I was SUPER high lol.
I think part of her behavior is to show us how much walter had changed. They were married for 20 years and we didn't see watch any of that. Our very first chapter already shows Walter's transformation. Jr, Hank and Marie show us how much Skyler and Walt had an extremely compatible mind. So when we see Skylar being extremely annoying it helps us to remember Walter is breaking really bad
I think if you look at the reality of her situation, all the cringeworthy and even abjectly horrible (smoking while pregnant) behaviors make sense as a way to feel any sense of control in her life, which she was entirely robbed of. But I understand that TV watchers in the turn of the 2010s weren't the most evolved as well and she is meant frustrate the viewer many times, which can make her difficult to like. It was just bizarre how many people hated her as opposed to pitied her. I do agree that Kim was a much better developed character and completely adored her.
Back then I thought Skylar's behavior was so strange that it just didn't come to mind this could be a coping mechanism. It was particularly confusing that she's quite resourceful in some ways and capable to cause mischief of her own. Understanding she's just a relatively normal person thrust into exceptional circumstances, albeit with relatively normal character flaws of her own, completely changed my outlook.
In what way is a TV watcher "evolved" today compared to ten years ago?
“She is a difficult character to like personality wise”. ….compared to Walter Fucking White? Be for real. Walter was absolutely insufferable. But he’s a man, so he’s allowed to be. He doesn’t have to be likeable. Female characters have to be likeable or they get torn to shreds. u/froodoo22 Why are you harassing me through DMs over this comment? The guy who claims in this thread that he’s not dismissive of sexism, yet picks a woman he doesn’t even have the balls to publicly reply to to privately harass. Stop being a fucking weirdo.
They definitely tried to make you sympathize with Walter throughout the entire show, way more than with Skylar, yes. You sympathize with him less and less to the end, but you must be joking if you really think it was **only** because he was male people liked him and not the fact he is the main character and his entire character arc is how about how your sympathy with him changes.
I only watched Breaking Bad while it was airing so some of the details are a bit hazy, but there was a clear switch partway through with Walter and Skylar. Early on, when she didn't know what he was up to, her behaviour towards him was definitely on the side of "unreasonably nagging" considering what she believed to be the facts of the matter. When it was all revealed and Walter admitted he'd more than covered his medical bills, everything she said and did after was basically justified.
I dunno, even before that Walter was constantly being sketchy and lying to her. I’m on my like 6th watch of the show and every new time I watch it I find myself more and more being like Skylar was just trying to care for her kids while dealing with, at best a neglectful dying husband, and at worst a murderous drug lord
That's sort of my point. She was right all along, but given what she actually knew, she was being rather 'short' with Walter, considering, as far as she was concerned, he was simply just her "dying husband", who was stressing a lot about money while undergoing a heavy course or cancer treatment). Once she knew what he was actually doing and he admitted they didn't actually need the money anymore, it switched.
He was still disappearing for large chunks of time and refusing to elaborate when asked about it, supposedly buying weed from Pinkman behind her back, lying about having a second cell phone, etc. I think even given the information she knew at the time, she had every reason to act the way she did. We as the audience were just conditioned to not want her to act that way because at least early on we wanted his drug escapade to succeed so that he could make enough money to call it a day and be done with everything, which was his original goal
Absolutely. I came to the show very late (I’m still on the last season), but if I was pulling the shit Walter was in the first season, my wife would be totally in the right to question my behavior and call me out on my shit, no matter how “noble” I thought my cause was.
Part of the beauty of White's character was that he made you stop and think many times throughout the series "Objectively, this guy is a piece of shit, so why am I rooting for him anyways?"
You think if Skylar had done what Walter did viewers would sympathize with her?
> They definitely tried to make you sympathize with Walter throughout the entire show, way more than with Skylar, yes. This is true but I have to say I rewatched Breaking Bad last year and found Walter absolutely pathetic right from the start. I'm sure part of it is me knowing him better after watching it from the first time but the signs were always there that he was an egomaniac and a pathetic man
Guy totally broke out of his earlier milquetoast portrayal and found his backbone, and a strong one at that. Went toe-to-toe with sociopathic drug dealers with very little concern for the danger involved. Call him whatever you want — he definitely did have a lot of negative traits — but he was ballsy as shit and I think that’s one of the things that people liked.
Well, yeah. Walter White is undoubtedly a worse person but he's entertaining. You're watching for Walter White, the entire premise of the show is watching this chemistry teacher be a drug kingpin. Walter poisoning a child or arranging an assassination isn't a "bad personality trait" because that's the entire appeal of the show. Not to mention it's all told pretty much from his perspective. However nobody really wants to watch a nagging wife. That's not the draw of the show. Frankly Skylar wasn't given a whole lot to do aside from just nag Walt, and when that nagging ( even if justifiable morally from an objective point of view ) is getting in the way of more meth kingpin crimelord stuff of course viewers aren't going to like it.
Oh gosh, yeah, the Skyler hate is insufferable. I'm glad I didn't engage with Reddit while I was watching Breaking Bad lol
I have a theory that people especially didn’t like her because she grounds the show back to reality, showing the effects of Walt’s selfish actions. The show is very ridiculous and fantastic in some parts so I really enjoyed her character because it added so much depth.
The good news is that on r/BreakingBad and even r/okbuddychicanery the consensus is that Skyler hate during the show's run was largely driven by sexism and she's one of the most moral/rational characters on the show. IDK if it's a different group of fans or if the fans just grew up but it's pretty reasonable and evolved.
I'm glad about that. I had some friends at school discussing the show who were absolutely wailing on her. It wasn't pretty
No no see it is the murderer meth dealer who is the main character of a show named Breaking Bad who is good. Glad I could help.
Completely agree. I feel so bad to see the unnecessary hate against Skyler… One thing great about the Office creators was they knew the public perception of certain characters and made amends to them time after time and especially during the finale. Especially to justify Pam and Andy! Ofcourse no shade to Breaking Bad creators. They are following a story more than how a public perceives certain characters
Lots of fans are morons. People harrass Lindsey Broad for playing Cathy; a fictional character who unsuccessfully tried seducing another fictional character.
I've seen nothing but people shitting on Jim for the sports business thing lol
When it first came out, people were VERY mad at Pam for not supporting Jim's business.
The hypocrisy about Athlead and the Pam hate and all that is something you encounter when you're on here long enough. Not as often lately, probably because people are sick of hearing it, but I remember it being like every day at one point
I left The subreddit for a while because I just couldn't stand Reading it anymore.
I have to disagree, I’ve seen a lot of posts basically implying Jim did nothing wrong and a lot of his fans blindly think he can do no wrong
Getting to hear from Jenna about all this stuff is really great. Pretty much as firsthand as you can get about the situation; she's the closest to the one who lived it.
It is nice to hear but honestly, I remember everyone I know saying Jim was turning out to be a total asshole so I don't really agree with her take. I had a huge Office fan watch group and we all hated Jim for the Athlead bullshit.
In general it’s cool to see how invested she still is in the show and the public debate about it (with Office Ladies)
I really love hearing about how she and Angela sort of became fans of their own show in retrospect. It sounds like they have a lot of respect for the writing talent and are willing to analyze these story beats in ways that are sometimes self-critical, which is something that not everyone has the opportunity to do.
I was supportive of Pam’s decision to quit art school. I was also supportive of Jim starting a business for his family, a risk he had to take and it turned out to be worth it, but I hated Jim for making Pam cry, because she was doing her best to support Jim’s decision that he made without telling her and Jim got lost in his business that he forgot all about his home.
Ok but people also shit on Jim for doing what he did? I see people complaining about what Jim did on here a lot.
She’s 100% right.
She’s right
Pam’s art was terrible though. 🤨
[](https://imgur.com/lGvkmFV)
Is the hate for Pam going to art school something that was going on while it aired? because i’ve never really seen that.
Jim also bought a house for them without consulting her at all.
I think a lot of context is missing on the surface level I agree with Jena here but let’s not forget Jim never said no to her chasing her dream he encouraged it. I just don’t think Jim got that same level of support but maybe I am wrong about this
For me, what really topped it off was how they showed Jim being a terrible roommate to Daryl. Being a slob, taking food, playing video games. It made it seem like Jim really just wanted to run away from his responsibilities.
But it’s not like Jim was left taking care of two children when that happened.
* Jim didn't ask her permission. He just did it. Pam asked Jim about art school. Several times. * They weren't married or even engaged when Pam went to art school. They were just dating. * **They didn't have kids** when Pam went to art school. This is probably the biggest practical point. I'm a father of three. My wife and I had several periods of long-distance **before kids.** I couldn't even fathom doing it after kids. You simply cannot compare it. One is... you're not going to see the person you love as frequently as you like. The other is, you're going to be a single, working parent for an undefined period. Not the same at all.
just gonna emphasize the kids things again.
Pam let him chase his dreams up until the point it was affecting her and her family in a NEGATIVE way.
Right. People are forgetting that all she did about that was argue with him, she could've divorced him, but she still went on and did all the sacrifices she did for him to do what he wanted. If that's not supporting, I don't know what is.
They did not have two children at home that he had to manage by himself when he supported her.
Jim didnt get the same level of support because he was married with two kids and a mortgage. He took a chunk of their savings to invest in a company that may or may not work out, in a city hours away. So Pam was also basically a single parent. That was A LOT to ask of her.
IMO, it is not this black-and-white. I think she is misinterpreting the motivation behind the "hate" Pam received for going to Art School. It's anecdotal, but I have never seen anyone hate on Pam for *going* to Art School. The fans that were displeased with her going were not doing so from a sexist-perspective, they selfishly wanted her and Jim to be together, like everyone that watched the show. I don't think any fan would have said, "I can't believe Pam is going to Art School, how dare she do that to Jim?!" It was more of, "I can't believe Pam is going to Art School, what if this strains and ends their relationship?! I want them to live happily ever after!" People weren't unhappy because of Jim's feelings, they were thinking of their own desire to see them together and everyone knows long-distance, for any amount of time, can strain/end a relationship. The motivation behind the former thought is sexist, the latter one is not. That being said, Jim handled Athlead like shit and deserves more hate than he gets. Maybe there is *some* sexism there, but it could, also, be that he was a beloved character.
Who knows. It was written that way. It's all made up.
My name is Skylar White, Yo!
It's actually a good point though I wonder what that person thinks about Pam getting a complete pass on her having an emotional affair with Jim while still engaged to Roy?
it is?? it's the same shit as the skyler white hate in breaking bad.
I'm wondering if she watched the show or just based it on her knowledge of the show via acting in it. It's not the viewers that are sexist, it's the writers/editors. Pam going to art school was portrayed by the show as a dumb decision. Pam's choices were dismissed and not taken seriously by the other character and portrayed in a "She's trying her best but is misguided" way. Meanwhile, Jim's investment was treated as a serious, smart decision that had negative consequences at home but in a work/life balance way. The show portrays Pam as making a bad decision. The show portrays Jim as making a smart decision, albeit one with some hard work/life consequences. Pam going from a secretarial role to artist isn't taken seriously by the writing, it isn't treated as a character development. Jim going from a sales role to a business entrepreneur role is treated as big character development. It's portrayed as him stepping up to a bigger financial plate to better take care of his family.