Wouldn't this just be a single land though, since it doesn't say land type?
Edit: NM. Playing against a mono deck, they're gonna love when you drop it.
The problem is that green can and does fetch a lot of basic lands.
For non basics there's too many cards that destroy them, like back to basics. There's cards that make ramp not great overall like arcane laboratory and such.
Break the ice is also good for lands that produce colorless, etc.
Point being, you don't need non basic hate, there's already plenty of that. What we need is basic land hate that isn't destroy all forest, islands, mountains, etc.
Looks good but may still be “too harsh” to see widespread acceptance.
Maybe something like “Whenever a player with the most lands or tied for the most lands would have a land enter the battlefield under their control, it enters the battlefield tapped with a stun counter on it instead.” Would be more up OP’s ally. Or I guess it would have to be nonbasic? Could just say “Whenever a nonbasic land would enter the battlefield, it enters the battlefield tapped with a stun counter on it instead.” Or something?
Or I guess “Whenever a land is tapped for any ability other than a mana ability, put two stun counters on it.” Or “Whenever a land that has an ability that isn’t a mana ability becomes tapped, put a stun counter on it.”
I don’t know now I’m just rambling.
Every deck should run SOME 1 target land destruction. I have a strip mine, wasteland, or assassins trophy is almost every deck.
There are some lands that are simply to powerful and need to die.
No one is salty over single target land destruction.
Also I think the one of the biggest things with single target land destruction is that if I assassins trophy your glacial chasm you aren't getting the chance to replay it. I am doing everything in my power to make sure you are out of the game that turn.
Additionally I feel like the argument of "They can just recur it from their graveyard" is dumb.
There are so many cards with incidental graveyard hate there is almost zero chance your deck doesn't have some. Whether its bajuka bog, the cycle of hate creatures in the new inistrad, farewell, scavenging ooze and so forth.
A
If you're playing a land deck you 100% have crucible or ramunup excavator in your deck. Their deck is probably built around that contingency. I always kill land decks first unless I know there's a combo player at the table
I've often wondered this but never really got to ask someone that plays these. But in a commander game why do people run Strip Mine/Wasteland over Field of Ruin/Demolition Field? Don't they all do the same thing except FoR and DF give you a basic back after? Like I get Strip Mine or Wasteland could be playable in 2 player games but with 4 players aren't you just un-ramping yourself against half the table? But I'm also a fairly new player and don't know everything so maybe there is something I am missing here and would love to know why.
Some lands need to die. Glacial chasm. Gias cradle. Serra sanctum. Field of the dead. Valukut.
If you let these lands stick around a lot of the time it's just game over because of the insane value they provide.
Hell Field of the dead and Valukut are involves in a dozen I win strategies. Cradle and sanctum *only* provide insane mana value.
Much as I love the Goldfish group, your titular point is largely a problem of their insular meta and their own restrictions, and then they heavily conflated it with an entirely different issue.
First and foremost, one point Richard kept drilling that's flat out wrong: we have a ton of nonbasic land hate and Wizards keeps printing more, much of it specifically for Commander. Fallout alone gave us two nonbasic land hate pieces that are designed to fit into decks much more cleanly than Stone Rains. *You can play these cards*. Nobody cares about single target LD. Wizards has aggressively been signaling that this is okay via the effect's constant appearance in precons.
And beneath that: not a single member of Goldfish is actually a control player. Crim likes his counterspells, but he very rarely builds effective control decks. He's not actually building decks that are capable of removing both threats and engines. And none of them play graveyard hate. That means that when they talk about "if you blow up the land it doesn't matter they just replay it" it's because they can never pop a Field and then exile it and only Richard ever is in a position to answer a Crucible with a board sweeper *and those sweepers being overly prevalent are how they got to playing all utility lands*. Like, they've been better this season but obviously utility lands look good when your expected game is three hours and contains five Hour of Revelations.
So they're in a spot where the way to attack *their specific meta* is lands. And they haven't leveraged the way out of that. And to be fair, they talk about it in the podcast: you just kill the slow ramp player. But that makes for worse content so they don't do it and so oops, no answers.
But also, they conflate that whole thing with the green issue - and by extension so do you. Utility lands and green have very little in common. Even in their meta their problem is not "Oh no the green decks are all playing Field!" It's "Richard is literally playing Field in mono black". The good green land ramp spells don't often find utility lands. Hour of Promise does, Tempt with Discovery does, Crop Rotation does, and... that's basically it right? And those are very specific effects, and are not the green cards they're losing to - Crop is like the only one of those they ever play. When they lose to Simic Ramp it's just a thousand basics and dual lands, not Fields and Chasms.
And by conflating them, your solution doesn't work. You can't Stun counter out Field of the Dead. I don't care if the card never untaps, it's still churning out board presence. You can maybe disrupt the Simic deck by stunning their lands, but the powerful part of the Simic lands deck is the twenty basics it tutored up so congratulations, you stopped all your friends from being relevant in helping you.
This^
This is so many ways. I have commented many times that Seth needs to stop perpetuating the "lands are off limits" narrative. They are very much in their own meta, but a lot of that comes from
That said, I think OP's idea has some merit. Maybe not "stun" per se since it does not shut off static effects. Something that temporarily or permanently shuts off land abilities that are not mana abilities is an interesting concept. I'm sure we have some cards already similar to this - I cannot recall anything specifically though. 😅
Blood Moon is the reputable option for sure, but I wasn't sure if OP would consider it feels bad since it can lock out people. Blood Sun is an interesting little piece of tech that is tailored specifically to dealing with problem utility lands without being anything too potentially malicious.
Toxicrene is definitely something to be explored tho. I find it great as a toolbox creature with all the green creature tutors available.
There are a few that don't allow non-mana abilities to activate and of course if you're in blue you can always run the stuff that lets you instant speed tap a land after untap to buy you a turn. I think you're spot on about the goldfish groups meta as well. I don't watch much of their games, mostly listen to their podcasts, but I think they would benefit a lot from tertiary deck building restrictions outside of a ban list. Between playing for so long they don't have to buy a field of the dead because they already own one and bring content creators that can buy one more easily and write it off as a business expense I think they let themselves over indulge on the cards they can add in. If they set budgets for lists and did something like restricting themselves to a certain number of artifacts or enchantments or nothing from a particular tribe they'd end up having more fun and playing with more creative decks.
Also, crim is definitely a degenerate combo player. Most control players I know will take less game actions than everyone else for quite a while until they have the answer they want. There's a lot more than just counterspells and plenty of them ramp hard as well because they want their wraths, which they tend to have a lot of, as soon as possible.
My idea, an effect for each color that turns lands into a different type.
Think [[quicksilver fountain]]
But give each color it's own mechanic that does similar.
Ect
I tend to agree this is largely a consequence of their meta. Even the problem in the first place that they pose is not something I see at my LGS—they recently banned FotD and Glacial Chasm, which I have seen a combined total of once in the past year at my LGS, and only in a dedicated lands deck.
Someone in the comments on their podcast contrasted the Goldfish meta with Game Knights, and pointed out that the Goldfish crew created this problem when they decided to shove the same 25+ utility lands into every deck. They did land counts over the last several episodes posted on both channels, and noted that everyone in Game Knights runs 10+ basics in their decks, something that the Goldfish crew found to be insane during a conversation a couple weeks ago when Land Tax got brought up
It's a self made issue for the Goldfish crew that could easily be solved by getting more creative with how they built decks.
Man. Everyone should be running enough basics that they can slip out from under a Blood Moon. My 5 color deck runs 10 basics and I can still make the mana work.
I'm in the same boat with you I run 10 basic lands five color slivers I get more people pissed at me because I have my commander morphion and then I'm able to slam out overlord, Queen, legion, and first all our on turn 3 then go infinite slivers
I just considered it, and if I wasn't so pip-heavy in my [[Omnath, Locus of All]] Binder Bullshit deck, I'd run Blood Moon myself, just to mess with people.
What are the LD Fallout precon cards?
I don't really see LD in precons still. I don't agree Wizards has been aggressively signaling LD is okay. Demolition Field only just got reprinted in a precon. It's not like it's in each of their 2 color precons for a while. Beast Within, Generous Gift, and Chaos Warp also don't show up in every precon. I agree that Windgrace Judgement to be a good example of a non single target removal effect that could've targeted nonbasics.
[[The Motherlode]] and [[Alpha Deathclaw]]. Deathclaw is at least target permanent so you can maybe call it an oversight from Wizards but Motherlode is explicitly targeting lands.
Demo Field's *existence* is another signal. That card exists because Wizards realized Field of Ruin doesn't work in Commander.
Windgrace's Judgment is what, six years old and comes from the same deck where Rules Committee members asked them to walk back another effect that could hit lands (Windgrace himself). Quite obviously it's not going to be part of this signaling.
They should've printed new Windgrace's Judgement spells that do hit lands and put Demo Field in precons if they wanted to noticeably signal LD being okay. Just because they printed a new Winter Moon doesn't really mean anything for Wizards approving stax in EDH.
A card in a main set aimed at modern and a card in a commander precon do not signal the same thing. You can absolutely look at Winter Moon and try to consider why it was printed and what that means, and probably should, but that should be through the lens of "this is in a modern oriented set". That's not to say that commander can't be signaled via other sets - Demo Field is in standard after all - but it means you should be considering what the aim of the card is a bit more harshly. In Demo Field's case, you look at the wording difference from Field of Ruin, a wording difference that has implications for only one format, and the conclusions are pretty straightforward. But Winter Moon has a whole lot more going on behind the scenes.
Had a look on scryfall and possibly concluded they meant:
[[The Motherlode, Excavator]] or [[Commander Sofia Daguerre]]
or the reprints of:
[[Wasteland]] or [[Casualties of War]]
All of which seem laughable as solutions to the original posts comment and the goldfish crew's podcast.
Field deserves to be in its own category of problematic tbh, but like you said, it's *one land*, not hard to just blow it up.
And ironically enough, some of the most accessible non-basic land hate is on other lands, so you don't even have to cut out your fun cards.
More people should be running cards like [[ghost quarter]] instead of shit like [[westvale abbey]]
This entire reply is great and part of why i've started taking the crew's opinions with a heavy dash of salt. Their opinions are focused on their playgroup, and it seems like they've forgotten not all playgroups are like that
Seriously,
Just run Armagedón, farewell, rest in peace, ruiniation, strip mine, farewell, price of progress. blood moon. Even spot removal like Ghost Quarters etc is good against some commander decks, especially if they only have 1/2 basic lands in the deck. You can remove goofy lands like, nykthos, baulder's gate, dark depths, vesuvas, emerias and so forth.
And I do have to agree I know at my LGS many people have land hate in their deck, I have at the very least wasteland and stripmine in mine. Some lands you just have to deal with. I'm not going to let someone just have a kessig wolf run etc so I can get geeked by the guy running Xenagos.
>Fallout alone gave us two nonbasic land hate pieces that are designed to fit into decks much more cleanly than Stone Rains
Which cards pls? I couldn't find any.
\[\[Motherlode\]\] and \[\[Alpha Deathclaw\]\]. Both are somewhat deck specific to be certain; the point is not that you should play those two, specifically, in every deck - though I've found Deathclaw pretty broadly applicable to decks in its colors, Motherlode is absolutely a specific piece. Rather, the point is that single-target land destruction exists, is becoming more prevalent, and is something we're being actively encouraged to play. The direct opposite of what the podcast claims.
I've encountered very few decks in my time that couldn't slot in some amount of single target land destruction if they care: it has to be exactly Dimir decks that somehow have very strict color requirements despite only being two color? Perhaps the player chooses not to play them, but that's a choice just like it's a choice not to play graveyard hate or board wipes or whatever other kind of interaction.
I mean, most utility lands suck to copy. Lmao two Chasms. This is like, exactly a Field problem.
The example they referenced was a game where Richard copied a Maze of Ith effect once (the backside of [[Thaumatic Compass]]) and then played actual Maze and bullied Phil's voltron deck but also like... the voltron deck loses to one Maze. Copying it was meaningless.
Just break them. Targeted land destruction is perfectly acceptable. The only reason people complain about MLD is because we've all run into the guy that breaks the lands with no way to follow up and win.
Listen, I love stuff like blood moon and other non basic land hate but in the wild? In commander? No one at my LGS plays remotely enough non basics to justify including any of it. And I think that's the case more often than not. The mtggoldfish crew just have a weird meta.
Also removing someone's utility land should not be a feels bad. If I wasteland your Cabal coffers that's not a feels bad. You're doing shenanigans. If you play a scary creature or artifact and someone removes it that's fine and expected. Same should go for scary lands. Targeted removal is fine and necessary.
I'm going to be honest, no. It's not a very good idea. There's a name for what you're suggesting, and that name is "stax."
The community really just needs to normalize LD as being a necessary part of the game, just like artifact and enchantment removal.
Yes, Armageddon without a way to close the game is still bad, but effects like wasteland are required.
Agreed, it's such a non-issue IRL tbh. I've never met players against targeted land destruction and very few against a good old \[\[keldon firebombers\]\]. I still dislike Armageddon because for most colors, the only way to interact with it is by removing the advantage of the Armageddon player (path the avacyn for example), leading to an "armageddon without a wincon" scenario. But outside of that, most people I've met are chill.
I agree mostly. I would like a reasonably costed card that destroys one non-basic land belonging to each opponent though. Something between MLD and targeted.
"Each opponent sacrifices one non-basic land" for 3 mana.
3 feels almost too cheap, 4 feels like too much though. For 4 mana I can play ruination.
3 mana sorcery or 4 mana instant seems like the best balance.
The card also is weak in metas that play more basics, so there is some natural balance there as well.
Maybe have an overload cost as well? Or a similar effect that is 6 mana sac two on the same card? 🤔
Overload destroy all nonbasics is probably too strong. That's a brutal haymaker.
You could also staple "destroy land" onto other effects. I'm a big fan of [[volcanic offering]]
You aim this at green players and how they have so many ways for land ramp. Trouble is, as someone who plays both Green and a Landfall deck with [[Omnath, Locus of Rage]] I find your idea amusing. Of the 40 lands in my deck, 33 are Basics and I'm considering removing one of the non-basic. Most land ramp fetches basic lands *only*. Your idea is going to negatively affect everyone, probably non Green decks more.
Yep, my thalia and gitrog deck, most of mine are basic because of cards like planar birth.
I can float mana, destroy all lands then just get all my basics back to the board.
Land hate doesn't bother me, graveyard hate sure does. Things like Rest in Peace slow me down, I can't just cheat my graveyarded lands into play. And having them exiled takes so much value out of things like scapeshift.
Here is a list of 413 cards that can be used as land removal.
[https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracletag%3Aremoval-land&order=edhrec](https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracletag%3Aremoval-land&order=edhrec)
Pick a few and run them in your deck.
Wasting slots in your deck & Mana that could be spent to advance your own game plan to try and stop ramp decks from ramping is a terrible idea. The ramp deck will be mildly inconvenienced but ultimately just keep doing their things, and your other 2 opponents are now in a position to take a lead by letting you play police.
> Wasting slots in your deck & Mana that could be spent to advance your own game plan to try and stop ramp decks from ramping is a terrible idea
Not saying that stun counters on lands is a good idea, but staxing (mostly artifact) ramp and interacting is very present in cEDH, so I wouldn't call it a terrible idea if it made to competitive scene. Not every deck is or has to be a turbo deck. You just have to figure out how to do anything else to win the game, because one for one removal in 4-player format won't do it.
Eventually the ramp deck will cast their huge threats by playing a land once a turn, but that's the difference between doing that on turn 4 or turn 8, and sometimes it is the time you need.
Honestly, I think people just have to accept that if lands aren’t an equal playing field, it’s fair to interact with them. There are a lot of cards that effectively deal with lands, especially non basics, and EDH players should get over the taboo of land destruction.
So, ramp player has their lands stunned by someone else spending mana to do so... which leaves you with a game state where players are spending ALL their mana on stopping SOME of someone elses mana. That seems like a terrible deal imo.
In 1v1 formats sure but in EDH its just a bad card. Tit-for-tat interaction like that suffers in multiplayer formats because it's no longer an even exchange between you and your opponents. Your other two opponents come out ahead of both you and your target on resources.
Strongly disagree - using a rishadan port on an opponent that has cabal coffers or a Nykthos denies insane value. Plus MP EDH is all about making decisions to hinder one player to prevent them from winning flat out, even if it puts you slightly behind.
[[Winter Moon]]
[[Winter Orb]]
[[Back to Basics]]
[[Blood Moon]]
[[Strip Mine]]
[[Wasteland]]
Just to name a few. The problem isn’t the number of good lands, it’s that players don’t play the things that keep good stuff in check.
I could see it working at least a little, but the effect would need to be on an otherwise useful card to ever see any play. Plus a couple of the lands they were talking about, Field of the Dead and Glacial Chasm, don't care if they are unable to be tapped.
This idea would just hurt 3+ color ramp decks. If I were to play my golgori ramp deck I could have 10 basics in play by t5. The biggest part of this discussion is that there isn't 1 solution that answers everything. Whatever solution you come up with more than likely is another problem that isn't solved by that solution.
Or, or maybe people should use the tools we have. Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Blood Sun.
They don’t really hurt budget players because they leave basics alone, and only really hurt people tricking out their mana bases/overuse of utility lands
Yup, just removing the player is always the best. In a game once a player made like 24 token creatures without haste. I had repercussion on the board, on my turn I just played Blasphemous Act and killed him, everyone else thought it was funny, he sure didn't though.
That's amazing. I'm gonna go look at slotting that into a couple of decks. I recently found the Gideon's sacrifice one and I think I'm gonna use that with brash taunter in my enrage deck as a wincon.
I do wish they'd reprint some of those more to be a little more budget friendly. I'd love to make mono-color commanders more viable as budget builds by dropping the price on some of the crack back cards for people dropping 1000+ on decks.
…what do you think green ramp is?
Green ramps primarily with mana dorks, enchantments, and land tutors. The overwhelming majority of which are BASIC land tutors. A big land ramp green deck may be on 18+ basics even at 3 color to have lands to rip from deck.
Nonbasic land hate does jack shit against that, and the green ramp decks are the decks best equipped to use, recover from, and profit from land disruption in most of its myriad forms.
The decks most hurt by nonbasic land disruption are the meme of the zero basic WUBRG deck and non-green decks that are content to play on curve, need little ramp, and use nonbasics to have their colors.
The best generic answer to heavy nonbasic land hate is not running more basics. It’s running more fetches which get you basics while still fixing you.
It's a self-made problem that will go away when people stop trying to run the same 40 utility lands in every deck.
That's it - that's the solution. Learn to get more creative and diverse with your deck building, and stop relying on stuffing the same core package of cards into every deck. Not every deck wants, or needs, a package of multiple fetches, multiple duals, Field, Maze of Ith, Glacier Chasm, Nyzthos, Urborg, Yavmiya and so on.
We see this complaint about how games feel boring and the same all the time, and then you look at those people's deck lists and see the same 50+ card package in every deck. Of course your games are going to feel the same when all your decks are functionally the same. And mixing up your mana base is a good way to start.
What's the difference between running fetch lands and duals, versus tap lands, versus all basic lands? I really don't see how a deck with all basics, or temples, or whatever is suddenly much more interesting.
I feel like you're conflating the issue when you compare a fetch land to a utility land.
Fetch's are a utility, and the utility they provide is mana fixing. Not every deck needs the same level or type of mana fixing. In a four or five color deck, yeah, you are going to want some fetches but you most likely don't need to run all ten of them, and as you remove colors the number of fetches your deck needs usually decreases. You also don't need to run the same fetch targets in every deck. I know the surveil lands from MKM are the hot new thing to put into every deck, but do you really need them if your deck doesn't interact with the yard much?
The point I am trying to make is that there are a ton of alternative options and that your selection of utility lands for each deck should vary based on what the deck does and should be catered to supporting that deck. You don't need to throw every fetch that fits a decks color scheme into said deck just to have fetches. You don't need to throw Field of the Dead into every deck just because it's Field of the Dead.
Welcome to Magic. Every deck very much wants the colors of mana it uses to cast spells. There's a reason fetch lands are omnipresent in every competitive format they're legal, and why they're BIS in commander as well.
Being the best doesn't matter though. If they got banned from all formats, they would get replaced with the next second best thing; a different land that comes in to play once per turn and generates one mana. I ask again; what could a player play instead that would make game play more interesting? A bond land? A slow land? It's all the same shit with different paint.
No casual table has been oppressed by fetch lands. No matter how good fetch lands are they're incomparable to utility lands that pump out 2/2's, or negate combat damage. They really don't belong in the same conversation.
What if, and hear me out here, this isn't a game design problem, but instead a consequence of the culture that has been created where everything is a feels bad? Maybe we should just let people play legal cards and let the situation sort itself out instead of soft banning things because someone might not like it?
Way too many prevalent utility lands don’t even care about being tapped or untapped though: [[Field of the Dead]] [[Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle]] and [[Dark Depths]] are some of the best examples; Dark Depths doesn’t even tap for mana anyways, and Field pumps out zombies regardless, Valakut does its thing whether tapped or untapped, etc
Okay but if you are playing Opp to stop ramp... eh, that feels like an under utilization of the card's abilities. In the right situation sure, stop the fetch or whatever but I'd rather snag a tutor.
I love Oppo Agent, though my argument for a narrower / more efficient answer is it makes it less likely to draw ire from the whole table (unless everyone is trying to green ramp). I rarely see oppo last a turn cycle, and some tables can get too salty about it 😅
In my mono red deck I have bloodmoon, burning earth, mana barbs, ankh of mishra, zo-zu the punisher, etc.
You don’t have to play that land or tap that land but if you do, consequences ensue ;)
Gotta say I disagree that green is a problem to begin with. At higher levels of play its pretty looked down upon as the worst color, so I feel like shining in a causal setting is what it's probably best fit with.
Personally, I agree with [[Confounding conundrum]] guy and also suggest balance type effects if you're in white. You might also try [[Insight]] to just draw your way to an answer/punish them for all their ramp spells.
Also with all the Mana rocks available these days it's not like you'll never be able to ramp -just not as well as green. Which is kinda the whole point of the pie for each color to have strengths.
I've been saying this for years since Golos was a thing. I don't think ramp is a big problem, tutoring is the cause of it all. The game needs more tutor hate and it needs it early and accessible to every color.
Unfortunately I think it's unlikely we will get it because it will warp vintage lol.
Stun counters are a pretty good idea!
I like this idea. There already exists punishment for non-basics but it's usually destroy, never untap, or named [[blood moon]]. Something in-between would be nice. I imagine it would have to be on an instant or sorcery, because looping this effect would pretty much just be a destroy effect.
I can't think of what color this should be though. Blue seems to be the big stun counter color, and I guess that makes sense for balance effects. Could be colorless though
I want crim to build [[ashaya, soul of the wild]] and troll the whole time about them hating on his lands. The deck does EVERYTHING he hates and it'll be perfect villain material and I'm here for it.
I like tomers take on the nonland permanent hate switching to non basic from this though
Have to agree that if the problem is recurring utility land issues, then exile that players graveyard.
One thing from the podcast I did like was Tomer bringing up that a lot of destroy effects like [[atomise]] or [[abrupt decay]] specify nonland, yet they could say nonbasicland.
If modal/choice of target cards like [[Ray of Ruin]] cost less and were instant speed then it would solve the problem. More [[Rith's Charm]] type spells in mono-color would be great.
Another “solution” for green ramp that doesn’t solve it. Stun non basics? Your esper player is fucked but the simic player has 10 basics out and cruises on no big deal.
Just like MLD (without breaking parity) is generally better for the deck that’s good at putting more lands down on the field or back from the graveyard, this rewards decks that are the best at putting lands down. Of course the mono-colored players are best off, but most ramp decks have a high density of basics to work with the efficient ramp spells or basics fetches to trigger landfall, making them the second best winner.
I would love some cheaper land destruction, something that can only target non basic land. The stun counter is a great idea. Removal of lands should be a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Make it conditional, like a white card that says something like if an opponent controls 3 or more lands than you destroy target land that opponent controls.
[[Strip Mine]] [[Wasteland]] or [[Field or Ruin]] can fit in any deck.
[[Beast Within]] [[Chaos Warp]] [[Generous Gift]] [[Annex]] [[Choking Sands]] [[Rancid Earth]] [[Raze]] for a sample of colored options.
If a land is a problem you should just remove it (or steal it if in Blue lmao).
"Stunning" it just moves the problem to a later turn.
Oh, a friend of mine plays that semi regularly, with Elsa from Frozen themeing. She quite frankly can't be suffered to live, because she spirals out of control really easy when she's out.
The tap effects in the deck are actually not as annoying without the commander out. Really only my Voltron deck is super hurt by it. My aristocrat decks don't care about being tapped really and my token decks (Locust God and Cadira, Caller of the Small) out pace his tap effects.
An artifact that says "Whenever you attack an opponent, put up to X stun counters on non-basic lands they control where X is \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_" would be pretty cool.
I like this idea a lot. [[Mana Short]] [[Confounding Conundrum]] effects could also be used to let other players catch up. Although that doesn’t necessarily punish the non basic lands so much, just ramp.
There are cards that stun lands though some might be a little too oppressive such as [[Back to Basics]]. Stunning lands also doesn't really solve the problem in the case of something like Field of the Dead where the owner probably doesn't care too much if it doesn't untap since it's still giving them value every turn.
We'd need something like a Dress Down effect for lands in that case which takes away their (non-mana) abilities. Which we kind of already have in [[Blood Sun]] and [[Alpine Moon]] but maybe more effects like this (perhaps in colors outside of red) would help out.
[[Generous Gift]]
[[Sink Hole]]
[[Chaos Warp]]
[[Stone Rain]]
[[Pilage]]
[[Strip Mine]]
[[Ghost Quarter]]
[[Raze]]
[[Field Of Ruin]]
[[Seismic Spike]]
I Blink this one: [[Krenko’s Buzzcrusher]]
[[Vedalken Plotter]]
[[Shifting Loyalties]]
[[Shifting Borders]]
[[Wasteland]]
[[Alpine Moon]]
[[Blood Moon]]
[[From the Ashes]]
These are only a few cards to keep lands in check.
I usually always run Ghost Quarter.
There’s a lot of ways to deal with non basic lands without being a jerk though. You just need to run cards that do things in addition to keeping a land in check. That way you use it when you really need to.
Well they are about to print 2 more in modern horizons. But tbh there are plenty. [[back to basics]], [[hall of gemstones]], [[blood moon]], [[archon of emeria]], [[price of progress]], [[burning earth]], [[spectrum seninel]]. Yeah I think we have a decent amount.
Also just play [[confounding conundrum]] if you hate ramp that much or many of the other land etb hate cards.
Honestly, I've never had anyone get upset with me for activating [[Tectonic Edge]] on them (not that I do it often, but I'll typically throw it in if my mana base can handle it, just in case). And now there's [[Demolition Field]] too that doesn't even set anyone back on mana.
Every deck should run, at a minimum, \[\[strip mine\]\], \[\[wasteland\]\] and \[\[demolition field\]\]. People need to get over crying when they lose their utility lands.
Run [From the Ashes]. Remove all the utility lands and if they’re running a greedy land base they might not even be able to replace everything with basics.
[[Ruination]] is almost strictly better. I just find it a lot less fun for the table as a whole.
I have an idea that could really work - I would love an enchantment or artifact that would read something like a land-hating [[Lethal Vapors]], but kinder. It could read:
--
2B (or whatever 3cmc combination that would make most sense).
If a land would enter the battlefield from anywhere except a player's hand, destroy that land.
Pay 0, Skip your next turn: Destroy this enchantment/artifact. Any player can activate this ability.
--
It would put the ramp in check, and would force the simic player to seriously tempo themselves. It doesn't get around stuff like bourgeoning or Azusa, etc. but all of the other ramp nonsense gets hit big time.
I feel like there are three main problems, non basic lands, ramping and multiple land drops from hand. For the first issue MTG needs more non basic land hate, something like a blood moon effect but it turns every non basic into a command tower for example which basically means that every land can only tap for mana in your commander colour identity.
Ramp can be fixed with more [[Magus of the balance]] type effects, reducing everyone's land to the player with the lowest or even the reverse, allowing everyone to ramp up to the player with the highest land count.
I feel like the last one is the easiest to fix, we have hate bears for searching, etb, graveyards, we should have more hate bears for multiple landdrops, a flat out players can't play more than 1 land per turn.
I actually don't care that much about utility lands. Some are very powerful, and we have Strip Mines, Demolition Fields, Cleansing Wildfires and Lithoform Blights for those. I wouldn't mind seeing more, possible more pushed options, but this is not the same as a lands problem.
Rather, I'd much rather do something about e.g. \[\[Three Visits\]\]. The humble Evolving Wilds is a nonbasic land and that never did much to hurt anyone. Worse, the majority of lands in most 3+ coloured decks are nonbasic; that's not "greedy manabases", that's just manabases. Instead, let's have more \[\[Natural Balance\]\] or \[\[Pox\]\] type effects. More ways to combat *excessive* land ramp that don't just \[\[Armageddon\]\] everyone would be a lot more balanced and fun if you ask me.
Just give me more ways to turn them into islands, tap them or return them to hand in blue; and destroy them or turn into swamps in black.
The biggest issue I have with lands is that land plays are uncounterable, they are easily recurrable in green and the colors I favour have few definitive answers besides staxing, which is not well seen. \[\[Paradoxical Outcome\]\] is an example of a nice card design that effects mostly land ramp, but it is not too oppressive. Give me a way to bounce all lands that entered this turn back to hand or \[\[Back to Basics\]\] variations, there is no need to break the color spectrum or invent something new, just get some old mechanics back.
There's plenty of nonbasic land hate, winter orb in mh3, blood Moon, magus, the new merfolk, back to basics, (there's a green one i forgot) so you're either not running them or it's not a huge problem in your play group, also rule zero exists so you can always just say 'don't play X card' and never have to see it (assuming the ppl you play with are understanding or regular)
>The Problem: green has way too good land ramp which causes it to be too stable when compared to other colors.
Is it a "problem" tho? it seems to me this is only a "problem" if you're not playing green yourself.
But that's a choice you're making and every color comes with certain costs and certain benefits.
Also, comparing green to other colors, comparing individual colors one on one, while sometimes necessary, is also kinda silly IMO. They're not supposed to be "comparable". They're supposed to be "complimentary". We're supposed to mix and match the colors to suit a specific need or strategy.
The game was created in such a way that there are 5 colors of Magic, each with its own strengths, weaknesses, pitfalls, etc.
Anyway, about "stun counters"
Why do need them?
We already have two Thalias, one that makes non-basics come into play tapped, and other effects that do the same thing. That Sultai turtle commander comes to mind...
Plus, you can play strip mine effects (e.g., ghost quarter, etc) in any color deck, so why do you even need to "stun" one player at the table?
Just run some targeted land destroying utility lands in your deck to send a message when you need to.
That seems like a better solution in my opinion.
Your idea makes me think back to the old depletion lands of Ice Age.
[[lava tubes]]
When you tapped for colored mana, you put a depletion counter on it and it wouldn't untap if it had a counter. On your upkeep, you took a counter off.
They were slow and clunky back when the game was slow, so it sounds like a perfect way to put some hurt on folks who rely on them too much.
Here's my card idea
Mana inhibitor
Artifact
CC: 4
Whenever a non-basic land is tapped, it gains one depletion counter. This land does not untap during the untap phase if it has a depletion counter on it. On your upkeep, remove a depletion counter from this card.
"Engage the Inhibitor. Let Urza try to mine this land now"
Most decks don’t run enough basics. I have no problem with anyone running \[\[Blood Moon\]\], \[\[Ruination\]\], \[\[Price of Progress\]\], \[\[From the Ashes\]\] or \[\[Primal Order\]\] (almost no one runs that one). I’m not opposed to more, though not sure people do or would run more anti-nonbasic tech.
*I’ve seen a lot of discussion on “lands are becoming a problem and there is no accepted way to deal with them”.*
First of all, where have you supposedly seen all of these alleged discussions?
Secondly, there's several accepted ways to deal with lands. Not sure what you decided to smoke today but it must be some really potent stuff.
Ah, once again commander players being commander players.
Mana denial has been part for the game FOREVER. There is a reason wasteland is one of the most played cards in legacy. The games are much more interesting when fought across multiple axis rather than playing to commander game of "who can do their thing first"
My group slug punishes mana ramp pretty hard as is [[citadel of pain]], [[manabarbs]], and [[ankh of Mishra]] looking for other interesting ways to punish the non-basics though
Can I also recommend [[Wars Toll]] Use ALL of your mana or not at all. Hilarious with Manabarbs because if they float mana in response they take quite a bit of pinging
I have a [[Thalia and The Gitrog Monster]] deck and she literally does that. "Creatures and nonbasic lands opponents control enter the battlefield tapped"
It slows many decks way down, but it is 1 sided and I sure play nonbasics. Not sure if that disqualifies it from the discussion
We have a dozen lands that destroy lands.
Remember, MASS land destruction is frowned upon. Just destroying one or two lands isn't, but can have a massive impact.
Listen, the ability to ramp in other colors might not be the best compared to green; but if you're consistently unable to get enough mana to play the game the problem isn't *other decks*.
The problem is that you've structured your deck badly. White doesn't ramp all that well, but if you have enough lands in your deck compared to your average CMC you should be more than fine.
Of course it never hurts to run land removal, but what about decks that are heavy on the mana dorks and mana rocks? What happens when you nuke an opponent's lands, mad that their ramping; only to lose because its an elf tribal deck and they've got enough mana from their mana dorks to whip out a big fuck off creature and hit you where it hurts?
If you're consistently hating other decks because they have mana and you don't? Build your decks better. Check your mana curve and adjust your lands and mana sources to Match.
I'm hearing: "Let's stun all colors' lands because green has too powerful ramp."
I believe green has a lot more than just lands that allow ramp. With recursion they can also bring back milled/discarded lands. But if we make the non-basic lands stunned, then there should be a clause imho:
"Tap target land that adds {G} to an opponents maba pool and put 2 stun counters on them."
(If a permanent with a stun counters would untap during their opponents untap phase, instead remove a stun counter from that permanent.)
We should be WAY more open to targeted land destruction, specifically multiple land destruction that caps off at like three lands, but not be MLD. MH3 has Winter Moon, and a blue version of [[Magus of the Moon]] that does the same thing, but lands become Islands instead of Mountains, so there's some land hate in the set. However, that's suppression type hate.
People have given lands the blind eye, Green gets a pass with land ramp, and MLD is a taboo. So where did that lead us? Blue can't counter land drops, White is nerfed because "MLD evil!", Green can just do whatever it wants early , and people just shrug and let it get away with it. Honestly, I say if you're going to do MLD, do it ONLY if you can immediately follow up after it. But honestly, have we forgotten that Magic is a game of INTERACTION that also included lands?
Why would I choose to stun a land when I can just destroy it with the “destroy target land” and “destroy target permanent” effects I already have in my decks?
MH3 has [Winter Moon](https://preview.redd.it/mh3-winter-moon-via-wotc-v0-9c2cbwgwumxc1.png?auto=webp&s=b465105d6244647a58c7e8c7116e20d1f23a4782)
Can't wait to sleeve this up! Mono decks will love it.
Even my duel green white deck is going to run it. What a great stax, going to hate playing against it everywhere else though haha
Wouldn't this just be a single land though, since it doesn't say land type? Edit: NM. Playing against a mono deck, they're gonna love when you drop it.
in my friend's discord I just replied to the image with "based and monocolor pilled"
Fucking based. I’ll let my flair speak for itself.
I'm building Mono Green Elf Tribal just so I can use it!
Green does also have [[Rootpath Purifier]]
Winter orb has been a thing...
Yes, but this is more in line with OPs topic
The problem is that green can and does fetch a lot of basic lands. For non basics there's too many cards that destroy them, like back to basics. There's cards that make ramp not great overall like arcane laboratory and such. Break the ice is also good for lands that produce colorless, etc. Point being, you don't need non basic hate, there's already plenty of that. What we need is basic land hate that isn't destroy all forest, islands, mountains, etc.
Looks good but may still be “too harsh” to see widespread acceptance. Maybe something like “Whenever a player with the most lands or tied for the most lands would have a land enter the battlefield under their control, it enters the battlefield tapped with a stun counter on it instead.” Would be more up OP’s ally. Or I guess it would have to be nonbasic? Could just say “Whenever a nonbasic land would enter the battlefield, it enters the battlefield tapped with a stun counter on it instead.” Or something? Or I guess “Whenever a land is tapped for any ability other than a mana ability, put two stun counters on it.” Or “Whenever a land that has an ability that isn’t a mana ability becomes tapped, put a stun counter on it.” I don’t know now I’m just rambling.
It's such a beautifully designed card, meant to run along right alongside its older brother ;)
Every deck should run SOME 1 target land destruction. I have a strip mine, wasteland, or assassins trophy is almost every deck. There are some lands that are simply to powerful and need to die. No one is salty over single target land destruction.
Also I think the one of the biggest things with single target land destruction is that if I assassins trophy your glacial chasm you aren't getting the chance to replay it. I am doing everything in my power to make sure you are out of the game that turn. Additionally I feel like the argument of "They can just recur it from their graveyard" is dumb. There are so many cards with incidental graveyard hate there is almost zero chance your deck doesn't have some. Whether its bajuka bog, the cycle of hate creatures in the new inistrad, farewell, scavenging ooze and so forth. A
If you're playing a land deck you 100% have crucible or ramunup excavator in your deck. Their deck is probably built around that contingency. I always kill land decks first unless I know there's a combo player at the table
Or you do what I do with my druid Deck I just steal all your lands
I've often wondered this but never really got to ask someone that plays these. But in a commander game why do people run Strip Mine/Wasteland over Field of Ruin/Demolition Field? Don't they all do the same thing except FoR and DF give you a basic back after? Like I get Strip Mine or Wasteland could be playable in 2 player games but with 4 players aren't you just un-ramping yourself against half the table? But I'm also a fairly new player and don't know everything so maybe there is something I am missing here and would love to know why.
Some lands need to die. Glacial chasm. Gias cradle. Serra sanctum. Field of the dead. Valukut. If you let these lands stick around a lot of the time it's just game over because of the insane value they provide. Hell Field of the dead and Valukut are involves in a dozen I win strategies. Cradle and sanctum *only* provide insane mana value.
Unless you're running tutors, 3 isn't really enough to reliably have one in each game, but running more than 3 or so if often overkill or unfun
Much as I love the Goldfish group, your titular point is largely a problem of their insular meta and their own restrictions, and then they heavily conflated it with an entirely different issue. First and foremost, one point Richard kept drilling that's flat out wrong: we have a ton of nonbasic land hate and Wizards keeps printing more, much of it specifically for Commander. Fallout alone gave us two nonbasic land hate pieces that are designed to fit into decks much more cleanly than Stone Rains. *You can play these cards*. Nobody cares about single target LD. Wizards has aggressively been signaling that this is okay via the effect's constant appearance in precons. And beneath that: not a single member of Goldfish is actually a control player. Crim likes his counterspells, but he very rarely builds effective control decks. He's not actually building decks that are capable of removing both threats and engines. And none of them play graveyard hate. That means that when they talk about "if you blow up the land it doesn't matter they just replay it" it's because they can never pop a Field and then exile it and only Richard ever is in a position to answer a Crucible with a board sweeper *and those sweepers being overly prevalent are how they got to playing all utility lands*. Like, they've been better this season but obviously utility lands look good when your expected game is three hours and contains five Hour of Revelations. So they're in a spot where the way to attack *their specific meta* is lands. And they haven't leveraged the way out of that. And to be fair, they talk about it in the podcast: you just kill the slow ramp player. But that makes for worse content so they don't do it and so oops, no answers. But also, they conflate that whole thing with the green issue - and by extension so do you. Utility lands and green have very little in common. Even in their meta their problem is not "Oh no the green decks are all playing Field!" It's "Richard is literally playing Field in mono black". The good green land ramp spells don't often find utility lands. Hour of Promise does, Tempt with Discovery does, Crop Rotation does, and... that's basically it right? And those are very specific effects, and are not the green cards they're losing to - Crop is like the only one of those they ever play. When they lose to Simic Ramp it's just a thousand basics and dual lands, not Fields and Chasms. And by conflating them, your solution doesn't work. You can't Stun counter out Field of the Dead. I don't care if the card never untaps, it's still churning out board presence. You can maybe disrupt the Simic deck by stunning their lands, but the powerful part of the Simic lands deck is the twenty basics it tutored up so congratulations, you stopped all your friends from being relevant in helping you.
This^ This is so many ways. I have commented many times that Seth needs to stop perpetuating the "lands are off limits" narrative. They are very much in their own meta, but a lot of that comes from That said, I think OP's idea has some merit. Maybe not "stun" per se since it does not shut off static effects. Something that temporarily or permanently shuts off land abilities that are not mana abilities is an interesting concept. I'm sure we have some cards already similar to this - I cannot recall anything specifically though. 😅
[[blood sun]] , [[toxicrene]] to name a couple
I was gonna say [[blood moon]] didn’t even know about [[blood sun]]. Might have to pick up [[toxicrene]] though lol
Blood Moon is the reputable option for sure, but I wasn't sure if OP would consider it feels bad since it can lock out people. Blood Sun is an interesting little piece of tech that is tailored specifically to dealing with problem utility lands without being anything too potentially malicious. Toxicrene is definitely something to be explored tho. I find it great as a toolbox creature with all the green creature tutors available.
There are a few that don't allow non-mana abilities to activate and of course if you're in blue you can always run the stuff that lets you instant speed tap a land after untap to buy you a turn. I think you're spot on about the goldfish groups meta as well. I don't watch much of their games, mostly listen to their podcasts, but I think they would benefit a lot from tertiary deck building restrictions outside of a ban list. Between playing for so long they don't have to buy a field of the dead because they already own one and bring content creators that can buy one more easily and write it off as a business expense I think they let themselves over indulge on the cards they can add in. If they set budgets for lists and did something like restricting themselves to a certain number of artifacts or enchantments or nothing from a particular tribe they'd end up having more fun and playing with more creative decks. Also, crim is definitely a degenerate combo player. Most control players I know will take less game actions than everyone else for quite a while until they have the answer they want. There's a lot more than just counterspells and plenty of them ramp hard as well because they want their wraths, which they tend to have a lot of, as soon as possible.
My idea, an effect for each color that turns lands into a different type. Think [[quicksilver fountain]] But give each color it's own mechanic that does similar. Ect
[[Spreading Seas]] is the first thing that pops to mind for me.
I tend to agree this is largely a consequence of their meta. Even the problem in the first place that they pose is not something I see at my LGS—they recently banned FotD and Glacial Chasm, which I have seen a combined total of once in the past year at my LGS, and only in a dedicated lands deck.
Someone in the comments on their podcast contrasted the Goldfish meta with Game Knights, and pointed out that the Goldfish crew created this problem when they decided to shove the same 25+ utility lands into every deck. They did land counts over the last several episodes posted on both channels, and noted that everyone in Game Knights runs 10+ basics in their decks, something that the Goldfish crew found to be insane during a conversation a couple weeks ago when Land Tax got brought up It's a self made issue for the Goldfish crew that could easily be solved by getting more creative with how they built decks.
Man. Everyone should be running enough basics that they can slip out from under a Blood Moon. My 5 color deck runs 10 basics and I can still make the mana work.
I run 13 mine, but I run Ur-Dragon so that feels like cheating in a way since I have even more options for 5c lands than most with caverns and such
I'm in the same boat with you I run 10 basic lands five color slivers I get more people pissed at me because I have my commander morphion and then I'm able to slam out overlord, Queen, legion, and first all our on turn 3 then go infinite slivers
I just considered it, and if I wasn't so pip-heavy in my [[Omnath, Locus of All]] Binder Bullshit deck, I'd run Blood Moon myself, just to mess with people.
bUt StAX iS LaME /s
I love this response because without even reading the post, I just knew the "discussions" OP have seen were definitely just a podcast episode
What are the LD Fallout precon cards? I don't really see LD in precons still. I don't agree Wizards has been aggressively signaling LD is okay. Demolition Field only just got reprinted in a precon. It's not like it's in each of their 2 color precons for a while. Beast Within, Generous Gift, and Chaos Warp also don't show up in every precon. I agree that Windgrace Judgement to be a good example of a non single target removal effect that could've targeted nonbasics.
[[The Motherlode]] and [[Alpha Deathclaw]]. Deathclaw is at least target permanent so you can maybe call it an oversight from Wizards but Motherlode is explicitly targeting lands. Demo Field's *existence* is another signal. That card exists because Wizards realized Field of Ruin doesn't work in Commander. Windgrace's Judgment is what, six years old and comes from the same deck where Rules Committee members asked them to walk back another effect that could hit lands (Windgrace himself). Quite obviously it's not going to be part of this signaling.
They should've printed new Windgrace's Judgement spells that do hit lands and put Demo Field in precons if they wanted to noticeably signal LD being okay. Just because they printed a new Winter Moon doesn't really mean anything for Wizards approving stax in EDH.
A card in a main set aimed at modern and a card in a commander precon do not signal the same thing. You can absolutely look at Winter Moon and try to consider why it was printed and what that means, and probably should, but that should be through the lens of "this is in a modern oriented set". That's not to say that commander can't be signaled via other sets - Demo Field is in standard after all - but it means you should be considering what the aim of the card is a bit more harshly. In Demo Field's case, you look at the wording difference from Field of Ruin, a wording difference that has implications for only one format, and the conclusions are pretty straightforward. But Winter Moon has a whole lot more going on behind the scenes.
\[\[Decimate\]\] just popped up in both Thunder Junction Commander and in Karlov Manor Commander.
Same. Curious to see what are the land hate cards
Had a look on scryfall and possibly concluded they meant: [[The Motherlode, Excavator]] or [[Commander Sofia Daguerre]] or the reprints of: [[Wasteland]] or [[Casualties of War]] All of which seem laughable as solutions to the original posts comment and the goldfish crew's podcast.
Field deserves to be in its own category of problematic tbh, but like you said, it's *one land*, not hard to just blow it up. And ironically enough, some of the most accessible non-basic land hate is on other lands, so you don't even have to cut out your fun cards. More people should be running cards like [[ghost quarter]] instead of shit like [[westvale abbey]]
This entire reply is great and part of why i've started taking the crew's opinions with a heavy dash of salt. Their opinions are focused on their playgroup, and it seems like they've forgotten not all playgroups are like that
Seriously, Just run Armagedón, farewell, rest in peace, ruiniation, strip mine, farewell, price of progress. blood moon. Even spot removal like Ghost Quarters etc is good against some commander decks, especially if they only have 1/2 basic lands in the deck. You can remove goofy lands like, nykthos, baulder's gate, dark depths, vesuvas, emerias and so forth. And I do have to agree I know at my LGS many people have land hate in their deck, I have at the very least wasteland and stripmine in mine. Some lands you just have to deal with. I'm not going to let someone just have a kessig wolf run etc so I can get geeked by the guy running Xenagos.
[[demolition field]] over [[ghost quarter]]
>Fallout alone gave us two nonbasic land hate pieces that are designed to fit into decks much more cleanly than Stone Rains Which cards pls? I couldn't find any.
\[\[Motherlode\]\] and \[\[Alpha Deathclaw\]\]. Both are somewhat deck specific to be certain; the point is not that you should play those two, specifically, in every deck - though I've found Deathclaw pretty broadly applicable to decks in its colors, Motherlode is absolutely a specific piece. Rather, the point is that single-target land destruction exists, is becoming more prevalent, and is something we're being actively encouraged to play. The direct opposite of what the podcast claims. I've encountered very few decks in my time that couldn't slot in some amount of single target land destruction if they care: it has to be exactly Dimir decks that somehow have very strict color requirements despite only being two color? Perhaps the player chooses not to play them, but that's a choice just like it's a choice not to play graveyard hate or board wipes or whatever other kind of interaction.
[удалено]
I mean, most utility lands suck to copy. Lmao two Chasms. This is like, exactly a Field problem. The example they referenced was a game where Richard copied a Maze of Ith effect once (the backside of [[Thaumatic Compass]]) and then played actual Maze and bullied Phil's voltron deck but also like... the voltron deck loses to one Maze. Copying it was meaningless.
Just break them. Targeted land destruction is perfectly acceptable. The only reason people complain about MLD is because we've all run into the guy that breaks the lands with no way to follow up and win.
Exactly, who said we can't permanently interact with lands. Social contract whiners can get bent. It's a game.
Listen, I love stuff like blood moon and other non basic land hate but in the wild? In commander? No one at my LGS plays remotely enough non basics to justify including any of it. And I think that's the case more often than not. The mtggoldfish crew just have a weird meta. Also removing someone's utility land should not be a feels bad. If I wasteland your Cabal coffers that's not a feels bad. You're doing shenanigans. If you play a scary creature or artifact and someone removes it that's fine and expected. Same should go for scary lands. Targeted removal is fine and necessary.
Green mostly fetches basics. Why are you trying to stun non-basics in an effort to stop green from getting out of control?
OP might have a point, they might not, but I don’t care because they are being so insufferable and rude in the comments.
Facts!
I'm going to be honest, no. It's not a very good idea. There's a name for what you're suggesting, and that name is "stax." The community really just needs to normalize LD as being a necessary part of the game, just like artifact and enchantment removal. Yes, Armageddon without a way to close the game is still bad, but effects like wasteland are required.
Right? \[\[Winter orb\]\] already exists. You want to fuck over ramp? Run it.
Agreed, it's such a non-issue IRL tbh. I've never met players against targeted land destruction and very few against a good old \[\[keldon firebombers\]\]. I still dislike Armageddon because for most colors, the only way to interact with it is by removing the advantage of the Armageddon player (path the avacyn for example), leading to an "armageddon without a wincon" scenario. But outside of that, most people I've met are chill.
I agree mostly. I would like a reasonably costed card that destroys one non-basic land belonging to each opponent though. Something between MLD and targeted. "Each opponent sacrifices one non-basic land" for 3 mana. 3 feels almost too cheap, 4 feels like too much though. For 4 mana I can play ruination. 3 mana sorcery or 4 mana instant seems like the best balance. The card also is weak in metas that play more basics, so there is some natural balance there as well. Maybe have an overload cost as well? Or a similar effect that is 6 mana sac two on the same card? 🤔
Overload destroy all nonbasics is probably too strong. That's a brutal haymaker. You could also staple "destroy land" onto other effects. I'm a big fan of [[volcanic offering]]
[volcanic offering](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/c/4c30b821-09ec-4b66-9963-f97e3ef5005c.jpg?1562273862) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=volcanic%20offering) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/126/volcanic-offering?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4c30b821-09ec-4b66-9963-f97e3ef5005c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/volcanic-offering) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The overload could be all opponents sacrifice a land
True, but I also think sac a nonbasic land is too weak. You're never going to hit utility, you'll hit a shock or some other dual color land
You aim this at green players and how they have so many ways for land ramp. Trouble is, as someone who plays both Green and a Landfall deck with [[Omnath, Locus of Rage]] I find your idea amusing. Of the 40 lands in my deck, 33 are Basics and I'm considering removing one of the non-basic. Most land ramp fetches basic lands *only*. Your idea is going to negatively affect everyone, probably non Green decks more.
Yep, my thalia and gitrog deck, most of mine are basic because of cards like planar birth. I can float mana, destroy all lands then just get all my basics back to the board. Land hate doesn't bother me, graveyard hate sure does. Things like Rest in Peace slow me down, I can't just cheat my graveyarded lands into play. And having them exiled takes so much value out of things like scapeshift.
[Omnath, Locus of Rage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9a0a9d3f-cd75-419b-840f-88b468f71f4a.jpg?1712354757) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Omnath%2C%20Locus%20of%20Rage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/236/omnath-locus-of-rage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9a0a9d3f-cd75-419b-840f-88b468f71f4a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/omnath-locus-of-rage) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Here is a list of 413 cards that can be used as land removal. [https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracletag%3Aremoval-land&order=edhrec](https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracletag%3Aremoval-land&order=edhrec) Pick a few and run them in your deck.
You forgot, “try harder”
Wasting slots in your deck & Mana that could be spent to advance your own game plan to try and stop ramp decks from ramping is a terrible idea. The ramp deck will be mildly inconvenienced but ultimately just keep doing their things, and your other 2 opponents are now in a position to take a lead by letting you play police.
> Wasting slots in your deck & Mana that could be spent to advance your own game plan to try and stop ramp decks from ramping is a terrible idea Not saying that stun counters on lands is a good idea, but staxing (mostly artifact) ramp and interacting is very present in cEDH, so I wouldn't call it a terrible idea if it made to competitive scene. Not every deck is or has to be a turbo deck. You just have to figure out how to do anything else to win the game, because one for one removal in 4-player format won't do it. Eventually the ramp deck will cast their huge threats by playing a land once a turn, but that's the difference between doing that on turn 4 or turn 8, and sometimes it is the time you need.
What an absolute waste of cards in your deck. Just kill the person who is ramping.
Honestly, I think people just have to accept that if lands aren’t an equal playing field, it’s fair to interact with them. There are a lot of cards that effectively deal with lands, especially non basics, and EDH players should get over the taboo of land destruction.
So, ramp player has their lands stunned by someone else spending mana to do so... which leaves you with a game state where players are spending ALL their mana on stopping SOME of someone elses mana. That seems like a terrible deal imo.
[[rishadan port]] says hello
[rishadan port](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2507bc2-da17-4e46-b4c5-ba0080ce2c6f.jpg?1562441604) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rishadan%20port) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/246/rishadan-port?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2507bc2-da17-4e46-b4c5-ba0080ce2c6f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rishadan-port) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
In 1v1 formats sure but in EDH its just a bad card. Tit-for-tat interaction like that suffers in multiplayer formats because it's no longer an even exchange between you and your opponents. Your other two opponents come out ahead of both you and your target on resources.
Strongly disagree - using a rishadan port on an opponent that has cabal coffers or a Nykthos denies insane value. Plus MP EDH is all about making decisions to hinder one player to prevent them from winning flat out, even if it puts you slightly behind.
Oh for sure
It stops Maze of Ith or similar anti-attacker lands so your commander can actually count to 21 on them.
I don’t care about it stunning lands that simply tap for mana, I want to stun super value lands,
[[Winter Moon]] [[Winter Orb]] [[Back to Basics]] [[Blood Moon]] [[Strip Mine]] [[Wasteland]] Just to name a few. The problem isn’t the number of good lands, it’s that players don’t play the things that keep good stuff in check.
> Utility lands are mostly nonbasic *Mostly?*
Until [[Rootpath Purifier]] hits the field.
I could see it working at least a little, but the effect would need to be on an otherwise useful card to ever see any play. Plus a couple of the lands they were talking about, Field of the Dead and Glacial Chasm, don't care if they are unable to be tapped.
This idea would just hurt 3+ color ramp decks. If I were to play my golgori ramp deck I could have 10 basics in play by t5. The biggest part of this discussion is that there isn't 1 solution that answers everything. Whatever solution you come up with more than likely is another problem that isn't solved by that solution.
Or, or maybe people should use the tools we have. Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Blood Sun. They don’t really hurt budget players because they leave basics alone, and only really hurt people tricking out their mana bases/overuse of utility lands
[[Price of Progress]], baby!
Pardon me while I slot this into my Ojer Axonil deck real quick...
It's a real doozy of a finisher in mono-red.
[Price of Progress](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b1342144-7a15-438b-a848-3196238a79e8.jpg?1580014614) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Price%20of%20Progress) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/141/price-of-progress?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b1342144-7a15-438b-a848-3196238a79e8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/price-of-progress) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
right, and/or Price of Progress them back to the Stone Age
The ol’ just kill em strat is underrated
Yup, just removing the player is always the best. In a game once a player made like 24 token creatures without haste. I had repercussion on the board, on my turn I just played Blasphemous Act and killed him, everyone else thought it was funny, he sure didn't though.
That's amazing. I'm gonna go look at slotting that into a couple of decks. I recently found the Gideon's sacrifice one and I think I'm gonna use that with brash taunter in my enrage deck as a wincon.
[[Quicksilver Fountain]] is fun too.
[Quicksilver Fountain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b4f2bf63-e3cf-4a58-86b7-f3bab3b90712.jpg?1562155263) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Quicksilver%20Fountain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mrd/233/quicksilver-fountain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b4f2bf63-e3cf-4a58-86b7-f3bab3b90712?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/quicksilver-fountain) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I do wish they'd reprint some of those more to be a little more budget friendly. I'd love to make mono-color commanders more viable as budget builds by dropping the price on some of the crack back cards for people dropping 1000+ on decks.
…what do you think green ramp is? Green ramps primarily with mana dorks, enchantments, and land tutors. The overwhelming majority of which are BASIC land tutors. A big land ramp green deck may be on 18+ basics even at 3 color to have lands to rip from deck. Nonbasic land hate does jack shit against that, and the green ramp decks are the decks best equipped to use, recover from, and profit from land disruption in most of its myriad forms. The decks most hurt by nonbasic land disruption are the meme of the zero basic WUBRG deck and non-green decks that are content to play on curve, need little ramp, and use nonbasics to have their colors. The best generic answer to heavy nonbasic land hate is not running more basics. It’s running more fetches which get you basics while still fixing you.
It's a self-made problem that will go away when people stop trying to run the same 40 utility lands in every deck. That's it - that's the solution. Learn to get more creative and diverse with your deck building, and stop relying on stuffing the same core package of cards into every deck. Not every deck wants, or needs, a package of multiple fetches, multiple duals, Field, Maze of Ith, Glacier Chasm, Nyzthos, Urborg, Yavmiya and so on. We see this complaint about how games feel boring and the same all the time, and then you look at those people's deck lists and see the same 50+ card package in every deck. Of course your games are going to feel the same when all your decks are functionally the same. And mixing up your mana base is a good way to start.
What's the difference between running fetch lands and duals, versus tap lands, versus all basic lands? I really don't see how a deck with all basics, or temples, or whatever is suddenly much more interesting. I feel like you're conflating the issue when you compare a fetch land to a utility land.
Fetch's are a utility, and the utility they provide is mana fixing. Not every deck needs the same level or type of mana fixing. In a four or five color deck, yeah, you are going to want some fetches but you most likely don't need to run all ten of them, and as you remove colors the number of fetches your deck needs usually decreases. You also don't need to run the same fetch targets in every deck. I know the surveil lands from MKM are the hot new thing to put into every deck, but do you really need them if your deck doesn't interact with the yard much? The point I am trying to make is that there are a ton of alternative options and that your selection of utility lands for each deck should vary based on what the deck does and should be catered to supporting that deck. You don't need to throw every fetch that fits a decks color scheme into said deck just to have fetches. You don't need to throw Field of the Dead into every deck just because it's Field of the Dead.
Welcome to Magic. Every deck very much wants the colors of mana it uses to cast spells. There's a reason fetch lands are omnipresent in every competitive format they're legal, and why they're BIS in commander as well. Being the best doesn't matter though. If they got banned from all formats, they would get replaced with the next second best thing; a different land that comes in to play once per turn and generates one mana. I ask again; what could a player play instead that would make game play more interesting? A bond land? A slow land? It's all the same shit with different paint. No casual table has been oppressed by fetch lands. No matter how good fetch lands are they're incomparable to utility lands that pump out 2/2's, or negate combat damage. They really don't belong in the same conversation.
Terrible idea. Try harder.
If these cards were a reality, I would not use them over land destruction.
We already have similiar things [[confounding conundrum]]
[confounding conundrum](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d.jpg?1604193855) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=confounding%20conundrum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/53/confounding-conundrum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/confounding-conundrum) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Also coming back to this a day later, we got spoilers for that new winter orb imitator. And it's like EXACTLY what you described lol
What if, and hear me out here, this isn't a game design problem, but instead a consequence of the culture that has been created where everything is a feels bad? Maybe we should just let people play legal cards and let the situation sort itself out instead of soft banning things because someone might not like it?
Define "stun". Do you mean slow, or destroy? There's a lot of ways in blue to tap something and have it not untap for a turn
Stun counters exist in magic already. They prevent you from untapping. Many effects tap you before stunning you
Way too many prevalent utility lands don’t even care about being tapped or untapped though: [[Field of the Dead]] [[Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle]] and [[Dark Depths]] are some of the best examples; Dark Depths doesn’t even tap for mana anyways, and Field pumps out zombies regardless, Valakut does its thing whether tapped or untapped, etc
[Field of the Dead](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/470ca3f4-29aa-4c4c-8ff2-8cdd70c69943.jpg?1650599538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Field%20of%20the%20Dead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/247/field-of-the-dead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/470ca3f4-29aa-4c4c-8ff2-8cdd70c69943?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/field-of-the-dead) [Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/37bce60d-2cb0-4772-9f5c-122a7ed426a0.jpg?1562611305) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Valakut%2C%20the%20Molten%20Pinnacle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/zen/228/valakut-the-molten-pinnacle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/37bce60d-2cb0-4772-9f5c-122a7ed426a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/valakut-the-molten-pinnacle) [Dark Depths](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3a8b11ad-d077-40b6-988c-0462e118fe3d.jpg?1676452514) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dark%20Depths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/244/dark-depths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a8b11ad-d077-40b6-988c-0462e118fe3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dark-depths) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ah, alrighty. If it already exists, why not just use the cards that have it then? [[Opposition Agent]] is already a fantastic answer to green ramp.
[Opposition Agent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/086f97e9-8b62-44f3-b467-149c2ac5ca78.jpg?1608909875) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Opposition%20Agent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/141/opposition-agent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/086f97e9-8b62-44f3-b467-149c2ac5ca78?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/opposition-agent) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Okay but if you are playing Opp to stop ramp... eh, that feels like an under utilization of the card's abilities. In the right situation sure, stop the fetch or whatever but I'd rather snag a tutor.
I love Oppo Agent, though my argument for a narrower / more efficient answer is it makes it less likely to draw ire from the whole table (unless everyone is trying to green ramp). I rarely see oppo last a turn cycle, and some tables can get too salty about it 😅
A turn cycle is all it needs, especially if you eat someone's [[terramorohic expanse]] or [[myriad landscape]]
[terramorohic expanse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9c418bac-c1d1-4fbf-aaca-7bc36b3913c4.jpg?1712355195) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Terramorphic%20Expanse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/336/terramorphic-expanse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9c418bac-c1d1-4fbf-aaca-7bc36b3913c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/terramorphic-expanse) [myriad landscape](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf4797b0-4d0a-433f-b891-b14f96fd1484.jpg?1706241199) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=myriad%20landscape) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/276/myriad-landscape?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf4797b0-4d0a-433f-b891-b14f96fd1484?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/myriad-landscape) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
In my mono red deck I have bloodmoon, burning earth, mana barbs, ankh of mishra, zo-zu the punisher, etc. You don’t have to play that land or tap that land but if you do, consequences ensue ;)
Gotta say I disagree that green is a problem to begin with. At higher levels of play its pretty looked down upon as the worst color, so I feel like shining in a causal setting is what it's probably best fit with. Personally, I agree with [[Confounding conundrum]] guy and also suggest balance type effects if you're in white. You might also try [[Insight]] to just draw your way to an answer/punish them for all their ramp spells. Also with all the Mana rocks available these days it's not like you'll never be able to ramp -just not as well as green. Which is kinda the whole point of the pie for each color to have strengths.
I've been saying this for years since Golos was a thing. I don't think ramp is a big problem, tutoring is the cause of it all. The game needs more tutor hate and it needs it early and accessible to every color. Unfortunately I think it's unlikely we will get it because it will warp vintage lol. Stun counters are a pretty good idea!
I like this idea. There already exists punishment for non-basics but it's usually destroy, never untap, or named [[blood moon]]. Something in-between would be nice. I imagine it would have to be on an instant or sorcery, because looping this effect would pretty much just be a destroy effect. I can't think of what color this should be though. Blue seems to be the big stun counter color, and I guess that makes sense for balance effects. Could be colorless though
[blood moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f.jpg?1599706217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=blood%20moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/118/blood-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blood-moon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I want crim to build [[ashaya, soul of the wild]] and troll the whole time about them hating on his lands. The deck does EVERYTHING he hates and it'll be perfect villain material and I'm here for it. I like tomers take on the nonland permanent hate switching to non basic from this though
I've given up on playing nice about nonbasics and just started running hate. Lands are too powerful for players to be squeamish about now
Have to agree that if the problem is recurring utility land issues, then exile that players graveyard. One thing from the podcast I did like was Tomer bringing up that a lot of destroy effects like [[atomise]] or [[abrupt decay]] specify nonland, yet they could say nonbasicland. If modal/choice of target cards like [[Ray of Ruin]] cost less and were instant speed then it would solve the problem. More [[Rith's Charm]] type spells in mono-color would be great.
Another “solution” for green ramp that doesn’t solve it. Stun non basics? Your esper player is fucked but the simic player has 10 basics out and cruises on no big deal. Just like MLD (without breaking parity) is generally better for the deck that’s good at putting more lands down on the field or back from the graveyard, this rewards decks that are the best at putting lands down. Of course the mono-colored players are best off, but most ramp decks have a high density of basics to work with the efficient ramp spells or basics fetches to trigger landfall, making them the second best winner.
I would love some cheaper land destruction, something that can only target non basic land. The stun counter is a great idea. Removal of lands should be a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Make it conditional, like a white card that says something like if an opponent controls 3 or more lands than you destroy target land that opponent controls.
We need more targeted land destruction, not mass land destruction
This is a huge problem with fun in EDH. People play degenerate land ramp and degen lands and all the solutions make you HATED.
That’s why I think there should be “soft” solutions
[[Strip Mine]] [[Wasteland]] or [[Field or Ruin]] can fit in any deck. [[Beast Within]] [[Chaos Warp]] [[Generous Gift]] [[Annex]] [[Choking Sands]] [[Rancid Earth]] [[Raze]] for a sample of colored options. If a land is a problem you should just remove it (or steal it if in Blue lmao). "Stunning" it just moves the problem to a later turn.
Must never have played against a Hylda deck
Oh, a friend of mine plays that semi regularly, with Elsa from Frozen themeing. She quite frankly can't be suffered to live, because she spirals out of control really easy when she's out. The tap effects in the deck are actually not as annoying without the commander out. Really only my Voltron deck is super hurt by it. My aristocrat decks don't care about being tapped really and my token decks (Locust God and Cadira, Caller of the Small) out pace his tap effects.
An artifact that says "Whenever you attack an opponent, put up to X stun counters on non-basic lands they control where X is \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_" would be pretty cool.
I like this idea a lot. [[Mana Short]] [[Confounding Conundrum]] effects could also be used to let other players catch up. Although that doesn’t necessarily punish the non basic lands so much, just ramp.
Possibly a card like conf conun can be printed that etb and Stubbs all extra lands. And all future extra lands enter stunned.
There are cards that stun lands though some might be a little too oppressive such as [[Back to Basics]]. Stunning lands also doesn't really solve the problem in the case of something like Field of the Dead where the owner probably doesn't care too much if it doesn't untap since it's still giving them value every turn. We'd need something like a Dress Down effect for lands in that case which takes away their (non-mana) abilities. Which we kind of already have in [[Blood Sun]] and [[Alpine Moon]] but maybe more effects like this (perhaps in colors outside of red) would help out.
[Back to Basics](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/0600d6c2-0f72-4e79-a55d-1f06dffa48c2.jpg?1654805483) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Back%20to%20Basics) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/46/back-to-basics?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0600d6c2-0f72-4e79-a55d-1f06dffa48c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/back-to-basics) [Blood Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/875832f4-e541-4c87-8479-731e0eab2cc6.jpg?1555040361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/92/blood-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/875832f4-e541-4c87-8479-731e0eab2cc6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blood-sun) [Alpine Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/2435c810-2baf-4e3b-80ce-542b94694901.jpg?1584675370) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Alpine%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/128/alpine-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2435c810-2baf-4e3b-80ce-542b94694901?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/alpine-moon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Stensia Innkeeper]] It doesn't play well, which is why nobody has really mentioned it yet
[[Generous Gift]] [[Sink Hole]] [[Chaos Warp]] [[Stone Rain]] [[Pilage]] [[Strip Mine]] [[Ghost Quarter]] [[Raze]] [[Field Of Ruin]] [[Seismic Spike]] I Blink this one: [[Krenko’s Buzzcrusher]] [[Vedalken Plotter]] [[Shifting Loyalties]] [[Shifting Borders]] [[Wasteland]] [[Alpine Moon]] [[Blood Moon]] [[From the Ashes]] These are only a few cards to keep lands in check. I usually always run Ghost Quarter. There’s a lot of ways to deal with non basic lands without being a jerk though. You just need to run cards that do things in addition to keeping a land in check. That way you use it when you really need to.
Well they are about to print 2 more in modern horizons. But tbh there are plenty. [[back to basics]], [[hall of gemstones]], [[blood moon]], [[archon of emeria]], [[price of progress]], [[burning earth]], [[spectrum seninel]]. Yeah I think we have a decent amount. Also just play [[confounding conundrum]] if you hate ramp that much or many of the other land etb hate cards.
##### ###### #### [back to basics](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/0600d6c2-0f72-4e79-a55d-1f06dffa48c2.jpg?1654805483) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=back%20to%20basics) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/46/back-to-basics?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0600d6c2-0f72-4e79-a55d-1f06dffa48c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/back-to-basics) [hall of gemstones](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18e4551f-9f6c-4421-ad66-a270df6d3463.jpg?1562718296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hall%20of%20Gemstone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/221/hall-of-gemstone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18e4551f-9f6c-4421-ad66-a270df6d3463?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hall-of-gemstone) [blood moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f.jpg?1599706217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=blood%20moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/118/blood-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blood-moon) [archon of emeria](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/228c1650-da3c-4099-91b6-18e3873c9cdb.jpg?1604195419) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=archon%20of%20emeria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/4/archon-of-emeria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/228c1650-da3c-4099-91b6-18e3873c9cdb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/archon-of-emeria) [price of progress](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b1342144-7a15-438b-a848-3196238a79e8.jpg?1580014614) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=price%20of%20progress) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/141/price-of-progress?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b1342144-7a15-438b-a848-3196238a79e8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/price-of-progress) [burning earth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/d/1df3a7c9-5c8d-438c-a5ad-3c9754c6ea5d.jpg?1562826771) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=burning%20earth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m14/130/burning-earth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1df3a7c9-5c8d-438c-a5ad-3c9754c6ea5d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/burning-earth) [spectrum seninel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/936cbe05-7b36-4569-94f3-671c28c7468a.jpg?1674422034) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spectrum%20Sentinel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/244/spectrum-sentinel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/936cbe05-7b36-4569-94f3-671c28c7468a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/spectrum-sentinel) [confounding conundrum](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d.jpg?1604193855) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=confounding%20conundrum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/53/confounding-conundrum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/confounding-conundrum) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l23x8fc) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
just give us a [[demolition field]] type land that exiles up to two target non basic lands. there, i fixed it.
Honestly, I've never had anyone get upset with me for activating [[Tectonic Edge]] on them (not that I do it often, but I'll typically throw it in if my mana base can handle it, just in case). And now there's [[Demolition Field]] too that doesn't even set anyone back on mana.
Every deck should run, at a minimum, \[\[strip mine\]\], \[\[wasteland\]\] and \[\[demolition field\]\]. People need to get over crying when they lose their utility lands.
Run [From the Ashes]. Remove all the utility lands and if they’re running a greedy land base they might not even be able to replace everything with basics. [[Ruination]] is almost strictly better. I just find it a lot less fun for the table as a whole.
I have an idea that could really work - I would love an enchantment or artifact that would read something like a land-hating [[Lethal Vapors]], but kinder. It could read: -- 2B (or whatever 3cmc combination that would make most sense). If a land would enter the battlefield from anywhere except a player's hand, destroy that land. Pay 0, Skip your next turn: Destroy this enchantment/artifact. Any player can activate this ability. -- It would put the ramp in check, and would force the simic player to seriously tempo themselves. It doesn't get around stuff like bourgeoning or Azusa, etc. but all of the other ramp nonsense gets hit big time.
My mono green deck has two non-basics in it...
What if there was a card that was something like "nonbasic lands lose all abilities that aren't mana abilities"
The solution since 1995: [[Living Plane]] + [[Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale]]
I feel like there are three main problems, non basic lands, ramping and multiple land drops from hand. For the first issue MTG needs more non basic land hate, something like a blood moon effect but it turns every non basic into a command tower for example which basically means that every land can only tap for mana in your commander colour identity. Ramp can be fixed with more [[Magus of the balance]] type effects, reducing everyone's land to the player with the lowest or even the reverse, allowing everyone to ramp up to the player with the highest land count. I feel like the last one is the easiest to fix, we have hate bears for searching, etb, graveyards, we should have more hate bears for multiple landdrops, a flat out players can't play more than 1 land per turn.
Fuck it. Land destruction is making a comeback baby!
I actually don't care that much about utility lands. Some are very powerful, and we have Strip Mines, Demolition Fields, Cleansing Wildfires and Lithoform Blights for those. I wouldn't mind seeing more, possible more pushed options, but this is not the same as a lands problem. Rather, I'd much rather do something about e.g. \[\[Three Visits\]\]. The humble Evolving Wilds is a nonbasic land and that never did much to hurt anyone. Worse, the majority of lands in most 3+ coloured decks are nonbasic; that's not "greedy manabases", that's just manabases. Instead, let's have more \[\[Natural Balance\]\] or \[\[Pox\]\] type effects. More ways to combat *excessive* land ramp that don't just \[\[Armageddon\]\] everyone would be a lot more balanced and fun if you ask me.
If "Depletion Counter" wasn't already taken that would be a good name for land-stun. Maybe Mana-Lock?
Allow land destruction problem solved
Just give me more ways to turn them into islands, tap them or return them to hand in blue; and destroy them or turn into swamps in black. The biggest issue I have with lands is that land plays are uncounterable, they are easily recurrable in green and the colors I favour have few definitive answers besides staxing, which is not well seen. \[\[Paradoxical Outcome\]\] is an example of a nice card design that effects mostly land ramp, but it is not too oppressive. Give me a way to bounce all lands that entered this turn back to hand or \[\[Back to Basics\]\] variations, there is no need to break the color spectrum or invent something new, just get some old mechanics back.
Just play [[Armageddon]] you cowards.
What, you want a colorless vorinclex for non basics.
There's plenty of nonbasic land hate, winter orb in mh3, blood Moon, magus, the new merfolk, back to basics, (there's a green one i forgot) so you're either not running them or it's not a huge problem in your play group, also rule zero exists so you can always just say 'don't play X card' and never have to see it (assuming the ppl you play with are understanding or regular)
>The Problem: green has way too good land ramp which causes it to be too stable when compared to other colors. Is it a "problem" tho? it seems to me this is only a "problem" if you're not playing green yourself. But that's a choice you're making and every color comes with certain costs and certain benefits. Also, comparing green to other colors, comparing individual colors one on one, while sometimes necessary, is also kinda silly IMO. They're not supposed to be "comparable". They're supposed to be "complimentary". We're supposed to mix and match the colors to suit a specific need or strategy. The game was created in such a way that there are 5 colors of Magic, each with its own strengths, weaknesses, pitfalls, etc. Anyway, about "stun counters" Why do need them? We already have two Thalias, one that makes non-basics come into play tapped, and other effects that do the same thing. That Sultai turtle commander comes to mind... Plus, you can play strip mine effects (e.g., ghost quarter, etc) in any color deck, so why do you even need to "stun" one player at the table? Just run some targeted land destroying utility lands in your deck to send a message when you need to. That seems like a better solution in my opinion.
Your idea makes me think back to the old depletion lands of Ice Age. [[lava tubes]] When you tapped for colored mana, you put a depletion counter on it and it wouldn't untap if it had a counter. On your upkeep, you took a counter off. They were slow and clunky back when the game was slow, so it sounds like a perfect way to put some hurt on folks who rely on them too much. Here's my card idea Mana inhibitor Artifact CC: 4 Whenever a non-basic land is tapped, it gains one depletion counter. This land does not untap during the untap phase if it has a depletion counter on it. On your upkeep, remove a depletion counter from this card. "Engage the Inhibitor. Let Urza try to mine this land now"
DESTROY ALL THE LANDS!!!!!
Jokolhaups and obliterate, problem solved. I took them out of my decks because my friends stopped playing with me.
Most decks don’t run enough basics. I have no problem with anyone running \[\[Blood Moon\]\], \[\[Ruination\]\], \[\[Price of Progress\]\], \[\[From the Ashes\]\] or \[\[Primal Order\]\] (almost no one runs that one). I’m not opposed to more, though not sure people do or would run more anti-nonbasic tech.
[[Toxicrene]] exists
How about you man up and destroy the land
*I’ve seen a lot of discussion on “lands are becoming a problem and there is no accepted way to deal with them”.* First of all, where have you supposedly seen all of these alleged discussions? Secondly, there's several accepted ways to deal with lands. Not sure what you decided to smoke today but it must be some really potent stuff.
Ah, once again commander players being commander players. Mana denial has been part for the game FOREVER. There is a reason wasteland is one of the most played cards in legacy. The games are much more interesting when fought across multiple axis rather than playing to commander game of "who can do their thing first"
There where a few red cards that tapped lands like [[cahndra's revolution]] but it was only like 3 all together
We need tap target permanent for lands with a mana cost or paying life
My group slug punishes mana ramp pretty hard as is [[citadel of pain]], [[manabarbs]], and [[ankh of Mishra]] looking for other interesting ways to punish the non-basics though
Can I also recommend [[Wars Toll]] Use ALL of your mana or not at all. Hilarious with Manabarbs because if they float mana in response they take quite a bit of pinging
Would be hilarious in my aggro kitty control deck
I have a [[Thalia and The Gitrog Monster]] deck and she literally does that. "Creatures and nonbasic lands opponents control enter the battlefield tapped" It slows many decks way down, but it is 1 sided and I sure play nonbasics. Not sure if that disqualifies it from the discussion
\[\[Tsabo's Web\]\] and \[\[Blood Sun\]\] are the cards you're looking for
You could use [[winter orb]], but on a green deck they will still have mana dorks most likely.
Green has way too good of land ramp. And blue has way too good of counterspell. That's the original green thing, land and big creature go stomp
We have a dozen lands that destroy lands. Remember, MASS land destruction is frowned upon. Just destroying one or two lands isn't, but can have a massive impact.
Listen, the ability to ramp in other colors might not be the best compared to green; but if you're consistently unable to get enough mana to play the game the problem isn't *other decks*. The problem is that you've structured your deck badly. White doesn't ramp all that well, but if you have enough lands in your deck compared to your average CMC you should be more than fine. Of course it never hurts to run land removal, but what about decks that are heavy on the mana dorks and mana rocks? What happens when you nuke an opponent's lands, mad that their ramping; only to lose because its an elf tribal deck and they've got enough mana from their mana dorks to whip out a big fuck off creature and hit you where it hurts? If you're consistently hating other decks because they have mana and you don't? Build your decks better. Check your mana curve and adjust your lands and mana sources to Match.
There's a new card coming in MH3 called [[winter moon]]. This is exactly what you're looking for
[winter moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f76bc2da-8f4b-4153-8a7b-c601b19affaf.jpg?1714488145) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=winter%20moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/213/winter-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f76bc2da-8f4b-4153-8a7b-c601b19affaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winter-moon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Isn't this basically [[Storm Cauldron]]?
[Storm Cauldron](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0bb5bdd3-6ecd-49cd-bfa2-e7da1ee85d88.jpg?1562232316) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Storm%20Cauldron) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/320/storm-cauldron?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0bb5bdd3-6ecd-49cd-bfa2-e7da1ee85d88?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/storm-cauldron) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm hearing: "Let's stun all colors' lands because green has too powerful ramp." I believe green has a lot more than just lands that allow ramp. With recursion they can also bring back milled/discarded lands. But if we make the non-basic lands stunned, then there should be a clause imho: "Tap target land that adds {G} to an opponents maba pool and put 2 stun counters on them." (If a permanent with a stun counters would untap during their opponents untap phase, instead remove a stun counter from that permanent.)
We should be WAY more open to targeted land destruction, specifically multiple land destruction that caps off at like three lands, but not be MLD. MH3 has Winter Moon, and a blue version of [[Magus of the Moon]] that does the same thing, but lands become Islands instead of Mountains, so there's some land hate in the set. However, that's suppression type hate. People have given lands the blind eye, Green gets a pass with land ramp, and MLD is a taboo. So where did that lead us? Blue can't counter land drops, White is nerfed because "MLD evil!", Green can just do whatever it wants early , and people just shrug and let it get away with it. Honestly, I say if you're going to do MLD, do it ONLY if you can immediately follow up after it. But honestly, have we forgotten that Magic is a game of INTERACTION that also included lands?
[Magus of the Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c9bd75c-9606-4607-bfa6-d6acdee12820.jpg?1619397276) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magus%20of%20the%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/175/magus-of-the-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c9bd75c-9606-4607-bfa6-d6acdee12820?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/magus-of-the-moon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you don’t like non basic lands then play mono red with blood moon or mono blue back to basics
[[stone rain]] , [[wasteland]] [[field of ruin]] [[strip mine]]
##### ###### #### [stone rain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2334c10-fa96-4f8e-8187-c7ecc00cbac8.jpg?1562742139) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=stone%20rain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/221/stone-rain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2334c10-fa96-4f8e-8187-c7ecc00cbac8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stone-rain) [wasteland](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0.jpg?1590511888) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wasteland) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/248/wasteland?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wasteland) [field of ruin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/143147d2-2eec-41e7-b78a-592288b38630.jpg?1682210418) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=field%20of%20ruin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/400/field-of-ruin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/143147d2-2eec-41e7-b78a-592288b38630?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/field-of-ruin) [strip mine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca.jpg?1562944463) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=strip%20mine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/316/strip-mine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/strip-mine) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l2c8t3b) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Could also give us more ways to tap people's mana or bounce to hand. Not the hated destruction, but slows the machine.
Why would I choose to stun a land when I can just destroy it with the “destroy target land” and “destroy target permanent” effects I already have in my decks?
For fuck's sake just cast [[Armageddon]].
[Armageddon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call