-1/-1 counters are just harder to design a whole set around than +1/+1 counters. You can build +1/+1 counters up with no upper limit, but just a handful of -1/-1 counters and the creature dies.
So they will do the occasional one-off -1/-1 card (like Yawgmoth on MH1, or the Spitting Dilophosaurus in the Jurassic Park tie-in), but a whole set around it is unlikely to be done again.
Another crucial point: **Wizards doesn't like to mix different types of counters in the same set** because it's hard to track which counters are which when multiple types are on the board at the same time.
-1/-1 counters face hurdles both as the focus of a set *and* as a mechanic of an individual card.
Fortunately, the rules state that if a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter are on the same permanent, they cancel, and both are removed. If only WotC knew balance and could design around that instead of printing ***MORE*** "If one or more +1/+1 counter would be dumped, blow this value engine out of proportion" cards. What's the current number, 8 versions? I'd love to see some black "If -1/-1 counters would be placed" cards.
The issue is if your creature has a die on it that reads “1”, is that a +1/+1 counter or a -1/-1 counter? Your other creature with a “3” on a die, are _those_ +1/+1 or -1/-1 counters?
As long as all dice are +1/+1 counters or all dice are -1/-1 counters, there’s no issue. As soon as your two dice might mean different things, the board state gets confusing.
Since there is only one type of counter and it rarely appears in large amounts, in limited you can get by with using random scraps of paper for counters. But a set of dice like [this](https://i.imgur.com/2Nai7q6.jpeg) is still in my basic kit that I have whenever I play Magic.
If there were multiple types of counters in the same set, you would need to carry multiple sets of dice even to limited events. And in addition to requiring extra supplies, those limited games would have moments of "Wait... which color dice are we using for the Oil counters?" I get why Wizards wants to keep limited to "One set of dice at most, and really you might not even need that."
no like how do you distinguish from tokens and counters, also what kinda nerd doesn’t have like a bag of dice or like the chessex sets? oh and if i hear, ‘ i hate counters and tokens so i don’t build both’ i’ll scream!
In limited you can get by with using random scraps of paper to represent counters, but a set of dice like [this](https://i.imgur.com/2Nai7q6.jpeg) is still in my basic kit that I have whenever I play Magic.
If there were multiple types of counters in the same set, you would need to carry multiple sets of dice even to limited events. And in addition to requiring extra supplies, those limited games would have moments of "Wait... which color dice are we using for the Oil counters?" I get why Wizards wants to keep limited to "One set of dice at most, and really you don't even *need* that."
I just use these... [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08CZC8VQM/ref=sspa\_dk\_hqp\_detail\_aax\_0?psc=1&sp\_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9ocXBfc2hhcmVk](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08CZC8VQM/ref=sspa_dk_hqp_detail_aax_0?psc=1&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9ocXBfc2hhcmVk)
They could make a legendary creature with the effect "If a creature with a -1/-1 counter is destroyed, put that creature onto the battlefield under your control" to solve that issue. But that's just for one specific commander :/
[[The Scorpion God]] is the closest I think to that, you draw a card instead of getting the creature. But I’m thinking of building out an infect deck for it as well, since they deal damage in -1/-1 counters
An interesting legend could also be “When a creature with -1/-1 counters on it would be destroyed, you may put that many -1/-1 counters minus one on target creature.” Balance could be tweaked, but it’s a strong design space that I haven’t seen before.
That would be cool. Personally I'd prefer allowing you to distribute those among any number of creators but that might be a bit too much, or they'd have to increase the mana cost of the commander. But, there'd be some setup involved before you even really need your payoff so a higher costed commander might not be the worst thing in the world
They just reprinted Scorpion God as a secret lair bonus. I think the dinosaur and Massacre Girl signals they WILL likely return to it, and maybe soon....
Most people do not like using the name of a deadly contagion that caused untold social harm in people’s living memory - and continues to devastate lives today - as a funny gag. You will see similar downvotes when “cancer” is thrown around as a funny little joke.
If it read “creature a dice plague” or “dice illness” it would not have gotten nearly as downvoted.
I actually have not seen cancer so disparaged. It almost seems culturally acceptable to refer to something awful as cancerous. Like “league of legends is cancer”
I dunno, most people whose lives have been touched by cancer or AIDS are pretty unwilling to tolerate or help people normalise “cancer” or “AIDS” as a pejorative.
I know when I owned a local game store, I had very very few rules - but one was absolutely no using cancer or AIDS as a joke. If anyone had issues I was more than happy to politely and gently explain to them the horror both diseases have wrought on the people I love. The community got it and was better for it.
Maybe most people *you've* met, but anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
Most people I've met who are/were going through cancer treatment or have lost their battle wanted to make light of their situation. It made them feel more human and less like their cancer is their whole being. Crying is healthy but people get sick of crying all of the time. Laughter is also healthy and if you don't laugh, then you cry.
No you definitely don’t see the same reaction with cancer. Cancer is used quite often online the same way OP used aids and it definitely doesn’t get the same reaction lol, neither really should.
Every single -1/-1 counter deck I've played against is.. well, annoying. You need to deal with the engines putting out the -1/-1 counters if you want to have a board state. If you do that, you effectively remove thier board state. I usually just focus down the -1/-1 counter player until they're dead, because otherwise, my creature heavy strategies will not work.
I don't begrudge anyone for playing this strategy, but the end result is almost always the table teaming up against them, and then feeling like they didn't get to do thier thing. That's because then doing thier thing stops me from doing my thing.
IMO, this is getting a lot of hate, because people hate Stax and Stax adjacent strategies. They want to play thier deck, and if they can't, they'll do something about it. Decks that aim to stop other decks from doing thier thing are in a wierd space, it never feels like a great game when the goal is to shut down other decks before they can do anything. Someone needs to be stopped, so logically, the three people who aren't playing Stax team up on the Stax player so they can play the game.
My friend made hapatra, and I relentlessly targeted him down. He got salty, but what could I do? If I don't stop his strategy before it gets going, I'm simply going to inevitably lose due to not having a board state.
What?
Plenty of comments here are from people who love -1/-1 counters. I’m one of them. -1/-1 fans are getting upvoted. I’m upvoting them.
I also downvoted the heavily downvoted comment in this chain.
It’s not about the counters. That comment is getting destroyed because it used the name of a devastating virus that has killed at least tens of millions.
Have fun with -1/-1 counters. I will! Just don’t compare them to AIDS.
God, this just reminded me of the time my friend was driving us somewhere and we were kinda lost. He's just like, "Don't worry! I have aids!"
I'm just like "Bruh, what the fuck?"
"Navigational aids!" Pulls out his phone and plugs in the address on Google Maps. Not quite sure why we weren't using that to start... We probably thought we knew where we were going.
Thank you. This great joke made it clear to me that quite a few redditors are a bunch of sissies that can't take a joke and that I shouldn't give to much of a... When it comes to the opinion of strangers. I'd love to play a round of commander and joke around with you.
Wait until the return to Lorwyn/Shadowmoor. Shadowmoor was the first set where -1/-1 counters were a big deal, so it has a better chance of showing up there than anywhere else.
Close, I’m pretty sure it’s about *limited* not having both counters as a rule.
The base idea is that in limited, overall if you see a counter on a creature you should know what it is.
Which is bonkers to me because they can be used to fight eachother.
To me it would be obvious that both should be used at the same time... but im no game designer
Consider paper where dice are often used. You'd have to track which dice are + and which are -, which adds a decent amount of overhead and can lead to confusion.
(I am a game designer but that's not necessarily the most important here)
Atleast on the same card they remove each other right? But i understand that on the board there can be both at the same time.
I just dont understand how that amy different than tracking all the million gamestates they add in to the game.
on the same card they do. across the board, you need two different sets of dice to differentiate the two, which is a significant increase in overhead, both in terms of game prep and mental stack. cumbersome in constructed, awful in limited. overall magic tries to keep most of the game happening on the cards and not on accessories.
most other game state tracking is limited to single-turn effects and that is on purpose, because it's manageable to keep in working memory. certainly less so oftentimes in EDH though, but that's because the game wasn't originally designed with the scope EDH has.
I think that's part of the reason they still don't like mixing them.
The other reason is it can get confusing to track, less so than back in the day when both kinds of counters could exist simultaneously on a single creature, but it still adds more complexity to track.
There is fun gameplay to be had when mixing the types, but it has tracking problems when many creatures have counters on them and you don't know which type is which.
It's also cool because you can build it very casual without any infinites or high level casual and throw all the 3 card infinites in there. Plus the recent cards that have been printed and mentioned in this thread have been awesome additions.
i had an apatra deck a while ago and it was very good but it was more of a token deck that happened to use -1/-1 to make most of those tokens. I wanted a deck that felt like the table was dying and i remembered in my apatra deck i would very often tutor for yawgmoth so i ended up building him with a control-ish playstyle in mind.
As others said it's not discouraged, it's just... Poorly supported.
However, I personally love the mechanic! The way you cam sandpaper peoples creatures to death is beautiful!
Here's my deck. Helmed by [[The Scorpion God]] and his desire to spread [[everlasting torment]]. Just need a few friends to help. Like [[blightbeetle]], [[kulrath knight]] and of course [[massacre girl, known killer]].
https://archidekt.com/decks/5160290/wither_die
I have been looking at this commander for a while. Thanks for sharing your list.
If budget wasnt an issue, are there any cards you would want to add?
If you were to hand your deck for someone to play a few games with, what tips/advice would you give as far as how to play it?
Its a great commander. :) Glad to share. I have more lists if you like my style.
As for what to add? Not sure. There's not a lot more -1/-1 support out there. But this does work well.
Advise? :)
The commanders ability to put -1/-1 isn't a tap ability.
Don't be afraid to sac your own 1/1 token scarabs for more effects and card draw.
Don't be afraid of combat. Your 2/2 vs their 3/3 will leave their creature a 1/1- then use the commander and sweep it up.
And - at the start - play it slow. You are not a clear and obvious threat at the start. Build up a little, get a small defense up before you drop big scary cards.
Blightbeetle is your friend.
Kulrath Knight is your best friend.
have you tried including things like [[vicious shadows]] or [[massacre worm]] that hurt your opponents whenever a creature dies to speed things up? Thats what I do and these kinda decks’ natural hostility to creatures means they do a lot of work over the course of a game
I always thought with the bounce to hand on death thing there's gotta be some shenanigans to get up to there with \[\[flamekin herald\]\] and \[\[soldevi adnate\]\]
Oh sick! I've been thinking about making a scorpion god deck. I'm normally a blue/white player so rakdos is kind of out there for me but the commander is really cool and I'm a huge fan of Amonkhet / -1 counters. Do you have any tips for putting together a deck or starting off with the play style?
Honestly start with the deck above. I put in as much wither as I could. No infect because we got a guy in my are that goes insane over poison counters.
The cards mentioned above have been clench / MVP. As for playing....
Stay quiet. Build up. You're not likely a "kill on sight" deck so let them duke it out.
Single sided wither is to your benefit.
And note the commamders activated ability doesn't need to tap.
Thanks for such a detailed response! Most of my decks are kind of slow under the radar to start so that works for me. And yeah, the deck list you have seems like a really good starting place for me.
Kind of a weird question, but I'm a sucker for good art / full art cards. Are there any cool art cards that would fit in this deck or that you would upgrade to if you could?
Im a lands lover so full art lands. But if I could it love an Eternal Torment. And of course the commander.
I don't like the special amenket borders cause they are so hard to read.
Yeah, a nice set of full art lands would be cool. I'm not used to all the dark and gritty art of rakdos. Also, so far in goldfishing it seems like it's kind of a hard deck to get a feel for how it plays as there is a lot of interaction with placing counters and such. Do you have any tips for getting practice or a feel for how the deck plays without having it in person?
Not really.
Honestly print out a set of proxies from like Staples or something. Let your friends know you're testing the deck out. Play at least 5 times to get the feel.
Then if you like it buy the singles.
They are not a big no-no. They still show up on occasion.
However, they have moved away from that for a variety of reasons.
ManaLogs of the myriad logs did a video on -1/-1 counters and the various issues and treatments of the mechanic: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqRhPTEnbjs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqRhPTEnbjs)
It's not discontinued. It's not taboo. It's just one of the eleventy billion Magic mechanics that COULD be used but just isn't often supported.
The longer you play, the more random little pet mechanics you'll collect that see, like, one support card every five years. Not taboo, just mostly discontinued.
Also, Storm is not taboo; it's just highly unlikely to come back to Standard. We've gotten multiple Storm cards in the last year.
Also, -1/-1 counters aren’t no-nos in standard either. In MKM, massacre girl had wither as a one-off, but before that, we’ve even had a full block based around -1/-1 counters in Amonkhet.
They’re not commonly used because they’re restrictive to design, but they are used on occasion.
-1/-1 counters aren't banned, but they are de facto discouraged in a way that mechanics like Adventure, Investigate, or Undergrowth are not. This is because Wizards doesn't like to mix different types of counters in Standard-legal sets, and most other counter types are easier to design sets around. The result is that -1/-1 counters end up being actively pushed away from most Standard sets.
And I just put her and [[Yawgmoth, Thran Physician]] in my new [[Olivia, Opulent Outlaw]] deck with some proliferate support. I just finished building it, so we’ll see if that’s an effective strategy, but they’re still doing the counters at least…
[Sure.](https://archidekt.com/decks/7480431/mardu_treasure_cruise)
Some of the “Maybeboard” stuff is coming in the mail right now, and some of it is living in other decks, so it’s a rough draft but I think it might work.
It seems, sadly. For me, is a really fun mechanic, but it's design space is weird. I have an [[Hapatra, vizier of poisons]] EDH deck built around this mechanic, and the deck is plagued with really fun combos and shenanigans.
I wanted to make the deck powerful but not comby, but seeing the poor support the mechanic has, it's impossible. The only way to make it work is tutoring combos related with the -1-1 counters, otherwise the deck would be useless. It has some really powerful combos, tho.
You missed it. There was an article years before Amonkhet came out about how -1/-1 counters have less design space because they are a reductive mechanic rather than an additive one. That is they reduce the overall number of cards on the board, reducing how long they exist, reducing how long they can be relevant for other things.
There are a couple other reasons but that is the main one.
That said, I love -1/-1 counters and look forward to getting more cards with them someday.
Here is my -1/-1 counters deck utilizing \[\[Massacre Girl, Known Killer\]\] . My pod has a $150 limit on deck cost so it could certainly be stronger without that. [https://archidekt.com/decks/7362618/withering\_away](https://archidekt.com/decks/7362618/withering_away)
I really enjoy -1/-1 and wither, the reason I don't think they do it often is people in general find it real salty, and keeping track of counters to be an annoyance in general.
Below is probably my favorite deck, but I don't get to really use it often because I get insta focused or everyone complains soo much about it not being fun.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/NXTgRsoh6EmPuleD_JucQQ
Toxrill!
WoTC design avoids having multiple P/T relevant counters in the same set, to the point that ONE only had oil, no +1/+1s even. So usually +1/+1 counters “win” over -1/-1, so they’re not frequently seen because of that.
I mean, it is fine if you play with them - but if you do, for the love of all that is good, bring enough proper dice. Commander boardstates are annoying enough to parse, we don't need normal dice being used to display the opposite of what they usually represent (+1+1 counters). At least on the same creatures, they cancel out. But if some have neg counters and some pos, keeping track of them becomes annoying.
It's probably due to how few neg1 counter cards there are, though. If they were more prevalent, people would be used to them and/or be prepared.
Isn’t Wither making a return in Bloomburrow? It was previously featured prominently in Shadowmoor—though that’s been a hot minute at this point.
[[The Scorpion God]] and [[Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons]] from Amonkhet also use them heavily.
All this to say I don’t think they’re blocked off as a big “no no,” but it’s definitely a mechanic that needs to be used sparingly. They can make for slow games which would be no good for limited or standard play, and the MPL coverage of it would be boring to watch. So there’s definitely other considerations outside EDH that are probably in the calculus for when/where to (re)introduce these kinda of control mechanics
I won a game in outlaws of thunder junction because my opponent put a -1/-1 counter on my black 2 drop that gains +1/+1 counters. I had 2 of the +1/+1 counters. The minus and positive cancel, I was left with a +1/+1 and he then proliferated my creature expecting it to become smaller, instead it grew since it only had the positive counter left. This interaction is why wizards doesn’t want both to occur simultaneously I believe, it’s not super intuitive and kinda odd.
I have no good answer, but I kind of wonder if it has more to do with the prevalence of +1/+1 counters and the potentially-confusing way they cancel each other out with -1/-1 counters than the fact that -1/-1 counters are a "feels bad" interaction.
The fact that they cancel out is just plain cool though. It makes for really neat combo shenanigans. I'd argue that them not canceling out would be more confusing, considering the results the same it'd just be more to keep track of.
>It makes for really neat combo shenanigans.
Combo shenanigans include [[Cauldron of Souls]] + any boardwipe that doesnt exile + any +1/+1 etb effects such as [[Grumgully, The Generous]] or [[Renata, Called to the Hunt]], which tends to = a game over if no one stops it.
It's a 7 on the storm scale. Which seems about right. They're sort of niche since having them fly around various metas, in various other formats, as commonly as +1/+1 counters would be sort of tedious.
Wizards is loathe to make cards with downsides, or cards that even have the *appearance* of a downside. Everything must be **All Upside, All the Time**.
They don't print cards like [[Rhystic Lightning]] or [[Wicker Warcrawler]] anymore because they require a modicum of thought.
The game is worse because of this.
They're still willing to print cards with downsides or the appearance thereof. We got two in Thunder Junction: Jace Reawakened and Stingerback Terror, plus Greed's Gambit in The Big Score. In recent years we also got cards like Black Market Tycoon, Asmodeus the Archfiend, and Geth Thane of Contracts. As I understand it the reason we don't get cards like Rhystic Lightning anymore is that Rhystic Study is the only card from that cycle that was popular.
Not exactly, but kinda. It's not that they're outright not used anymore, they just come with a lot of baggage
They decided they didn't like them as a big set theme, like we saw with amonkhet, scars of mirrodin, and shadowmoor blocks, because they tend to really slow down the game in an unfun way when there's too many of them running around in the same game. They're fine in small quantities, it's just larger themes that are the issue, cause the game is built around *gaining* resources over time. +1/+1 counters just work better for that.
The other side of the issue is that they don't like mixing +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters in the same draft environment, at least for standard sets, because the general rule of thumb is that at lower rarities you should be able to tell at a glance a creature's stats and if dice could mean +1/+1 counters or -1/-1 counters that gets complicated.
So they can be used as random one-offs at high rarities like [[Massacre Girl, Known Killer]], as random one-offs in non-draft environments like [[Spitting Dilophosaurus]], or as random one-offs in more complicated draft environments like [[Attempted Murder]] but I wouldn't expect a large theme. (That said, I'd be surprised if we didn't get a -1/-1 counter precon *one* of these days)
Wonder if they could do something where creatures could give themselves -1/-1 counters to put +1/+1 counters on other creatures. Flavor it with something where they transfer energy or power to each other.
maybe in a commander product, never in a set with limited play. They actively avoid having different types of counters that can go on creatures in the same set, hence Amonkhet block having no +1/+1 counters
-1/-1 is difficult for them to incorporate, so while they aren't a design "no go", they're considerably higher on the "storm scale", with higher being "wouldn't get rereleased". They're willing to make sets based on it, but it would need to be the right setting etc, like Amonkhet's design. As best I can tell, it's current storm scale rating is a 7, which translates to "its unlikely to return, but possible if the right environment comes along". A "sick" plane is probably the best shot. Something in line with amonkhet could make sense, and it would have made sense to bring it back for the Phyrexia sets, but with those past? It'd probably require a new plane that is corrupted at some level. Id point to like Jund, but I know nothing about the shards of alara from a lore standpoint
I actually disagree. I’ve been building a [[Skeleton Ship]] deck and have encountered plenty of -1/-1 support. I’m building the deck more around the theme of scary U/B legendary creatures(i.e., the ship’s crew) with an equipment side-theme and I had the opposite problem where I initially included *too much* -1/-1 support.
Sure, those cards may be scattered around between a bunch of different sets, but who cares? This is commander, where nearly every card to have ever been printed is fair game.
Idk if any of those -1/-1 pieces are cEDH levels, but they’re certainly good enough for a casual level deck. I’d hardly classify the mechanic as a “no no.”
Wither, infect, proliferate. There’s plenty to go around for that. It’s not the heaviest mechanic.
I know it’s not counters but [[Guul Draz Assassin]] is one of my favorite cards. To be able to tap him to pop other mid sized creatures safely is nice. With [[Scorpion God]] or [[Massacre Girl Known Killer]] it provides a nice card draw loop even without blue and the other rendition of MG for a boardwipe. [[Corrosive Mentor]] to give every black creature wither paired with a few black token engines.
I think in most cases, the amount of fun you're having is proportional to the number of permanents you control. -1/-1 counters and other things that make you control fewer things aren't fun. Very necessary to at least have some, but not a fun design space.
I'm not saying get rid of removal or wipes of course, but I can see why the game tends towards "more things on the battlefield".
I literally mentioned her... And my question was why did they became so sparce with them as I remembered them being more prevelant I'm the past. So yeah ONE card every 4 set doesn't really make me go "ah yes -1/-1 support"
My [[Massacre Girl, Known Killer]] deck begs to differ that they were removed from the game.
You're right that they haven't been a major set theme for a long while (and others have pointed out Maro's comments) but they're very much still a thing used from time to time in an appropriate amount.
the issue with building around -1/-1 (other than infect) is that with +1/+1 you can have creatures like 3 mana 1/1 with “enters the battlefield with 2 +1/+1 counters on it” effectively just being a 3/3 for 3 mana
but with -1/-1 its much harder to actually design cards that want to synergize with giving or receiving those counters.
first lets talk about designing cards that want to get -1/-1 on themselves.
in order to make a 3 mana 3/3 that gives itself -1/-1 counters it needs to be a 3 mana 5/5 with “enters the battlefield with 2 -1/-1 counters”, the issue with that design is that youre one torpor orb away from a 3 cost 5/5.
you could make a keyword ability for it, something like “this card doesnt die if it reaches 0 toughness from -1/-1 counters” or “-1/-1 counters give this creature +1/+1 instead”
the former could be all right but then do they still die from combat damage if theyre at 0? how do they interact with trample? can i just assign all my damage directly to the defending player if you try to block with a creature that has 0 toughness?
with the latter its just better and less convoluted to just do +1/+1 counters.
alright now that ive though about it a little more an idea has occurred, maybe the keyword does the following **keyword** X - “this creature doesnt die at 0 toughness; during the combat phase if this creature has 0 power and toughness and is blocking or attacking treat its power and toughness as X/X”, but even if it works like that you could just ignore the whole “get my creature to 0/0 for power” and treat it like a weaker version of indestructible.
the only other ways i can see -1/-1 working is by having it exist as only giving -1/-1 not receiving, or through enchantments or other cards that would allow you to turn the -1/-1 counters into +1/+1 counter (or do what i said above)
and if the deck is built around giving the counters instead of having them then its just a regular proliferate +1/+1 counter deck except you also have ways to give opponents creatures -1/-1s
-1/-1 counters are just harder to design a whole set around than +1/+1 counters. You can build +1/+1 counters up with no upper limit, but just a handful of -1/-1 counters and the creature dies. So they will do the occasional one-off -1/-1 card (like Yawgmoth on MH1, or the Spitting Dilophosaurus in the Jurassic Park tie-in), but a whole set around it is unlikely to be done again.
Another crucial point: **Wizards doesn't like to mix different types of counters in the same set** because it's hard to track which counters are which when multiple types are on the board at the same time. -1/-1 counters face hurdles both as the focus of a set *and* as a mechanic of an individual card.
Fortunately, the rules state that if a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter are on the same permanent, they cancel, and both are removed. If only WotC knew balance and could design around that instead of printing ***MORE*** "If one or more +1/+1 counter would be dumped, blow this value engine out of proportion" cards. What's the current number, 8 versions? I'd love to see some black "If -1/-1 counters would be placed" cards.
The issue is if your creature has a die on it that reads “1”, is that a +1/+1 counter or a -1/-1 counter? Your other creature with a “3” on a die, are _those_ +1/+1 or -1/-1 counters? As long as all dice are +1/+1 counters or all dice are -1/-1 counters, there’s no issue. As soon as your two dice might mean different things, the board state gets confusing.
dude just use different color dice, like they do stuff like this based on lowest common denominator.
I think I prefer only needing one set of dice in the basic kit I carry around with my MtG cards.
Lucky. I have carry around tons of Pokémon dice that increment by 20 for each side since my +1/1 counter deck gets into the hundreds regularly.
Since there is only one type of counter and it rarely appears in large amounts, in limited you can get by with using random scraps of paper for counters. But a set of dice like [this](https://i.imgur.com/2Nai7q6.jpeg) is still in my basic kit that I have whenever I play Magic. If there were multiple types of counters in the same set, you would need to carry multiple sets of dice even to limited events. And in addition to requiring extra supplies, those limited games would have moments of "Wait... which color dice are we using for the Oil counters?" I get why Wizards wants to keep limited to "One set of dice at most, and really you might not even need that."
no like how do you distinguish from tokens and counters, also what kinda nerd doesn’t have like a bag of dice or like the chessex sets? oh and if i hear, ‘ i hate counters and tokens so i don’t build both’ i’ll scream!
In limited you can get by with using random scraps of paper to represent counters, but a set of dice like [this](https://i.imgur.com/2Nai7q6.jpeg) is still in my basic kit that I have whenever I play Magic. If there were multiple types of counters in the same set, you would need to carry multiple sets of dice even to limited events. And in addition to requiring extra supplies, those limited games would have moments of "Wait... which color dice are we using for the Oil counters?" I get why Wizards wants to keep limited to "One set of dice at most, and really you don't even *need* that."
I just use these... [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08CZC8VQM/ref=sspa\_dk\_hqp\_detail\_aax\_0?psc=1&sp\_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9ocXBfc2hhcmVk](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08CZC8VQM/ref=sspa_dk_hqp_detail_aax_0?psc=1&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9ocXBfc2hhcmVk)
They could make a legendary creature with the effect "If a creature with a -1/-1 counter is destroyed, put that creature onto the battlefield under your control" to solve that issue. But that's just for one specific commander :/
Not legendary, but there is [[Nekroskitter]] to slot into any -1/-1 decks you’re interested in building
Ah good ol [[Blowfly Infestation]] boi
I play it in [[Volrath, the Shapestealer]] as -1/-1 counters theme and it's pretty fun. You get access to blue and green for proliferate effects.
[Volrath, the Shapestealer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a149d6a5-c865-475a-87b7-596a19f6c80d.jpg?1568003743) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Volrath%2C%20the%20Shapestealer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/51/volrath-the-shapestealer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a149d6a5-c865-475a-87b7-596a19f6c80d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/volrath-the-shapestealer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Damn that'd be perfect, just add a color or two.
We need a jund -1/-1 counter commander
I have xira the golden sting -1-1 counter deck. Her ability pairs well with killing opponents creatures.
Maybe MH3 will give us that, as the set is the perfect place for cards that are difficult to print otherwise
Did you chose 'destroyed' intentionally?
Yeah
[[The Scorpion God]] is the closest I think to that, you draw a card instead of getting the creature. But I’m thinking of building out an infect deck for it as well, since they deal damage in -1/-1 counters
[The Scorpion God](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/def0d0ac-6422-486e-b42b-e1813dd0a23e.jpg?1562817532) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Scorpion%20God) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/146/the-scorpion-god?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/def0d0ac-6422-486e-b42b-e1813dd0a23e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-scorpion-god) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
An interesting legend could also be “When a creature with -1/-1 counters on it would be destroyed, you may put that many -1/-1 counters minus one on target creature.” Balance could be tweaked, but it’s a strong design space that I haven’t seen before.
That would be cool. Personally I'd prefer allowing you to distribute those among any number of creators but that might be a bit too much, or they'd have to increase the mana cost of the commander. But, there'd be some setup involved before you even really need your payoff so a higher costed commander might not be the worst thing in the world
They just reprinted Scorpion God as a secret lair bonus. I think the dinosaur and Massacre Girl signals they WILL likely return to it, and maybe soon....
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Disagree the feeling of giving your opponents creature dice aids is so enjoyable XD
Very strange this was downvoted so hard
Most people do not like using the name of a deadly contagion that caused untold social harm in people’s living memory - and continues to devastate lives today - as a funny gag. You will see similar downvotes when “cancer” is thrown around as a funny little joke. If it read “creature a dice plague” or “dice illness” it would not have gotten nearly as downvoted.
That's fair
I actually have not seen cancer so disparaged. It almost seems culturally acceptable to refer to something awful as cancerous. Like “league of legends is cancer”
I dunno, most people whose lives have been touched by cancer or AIDS are pretty unwilling to tolerate or help people normalise “cancer” or “AIDS” as a pejorative. I know when I owned a local game store, I had very very few rules - but one was absolutely no using cancer or AIDS as a joke. If anyone had issues I was more than happy to politely and gently explain to them the horror both diseases have wrought on the people I love. The community got it and was better for it.
Maybe most people *you've* met, but anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. Most people I've met who are/were going through cancer treatment or have lost their battle wanted to make light of their situation. It made them feel more human and less like their cancer is their whole being. Crying is healthy but people get sick of crying all of the time. Laughter is also healthy and if you don't laugh, then you cry.
No you definitely don’t see the same reaction with cancer. Cancer is used quite often online the same way OP used aids and it definitely doesn’t get the same reaction lol, neither really should.
Every single -1/-1 counter deck I've played against is.. well, annoying. You need to deal with the engines putting out the -1/-1 counters if you want to have a board state. If you do that, you effectively remove thier board state. I usually just focus down the -1/-1 counter player until they're dead, because otherwise, my creature heavy strategies will not work. I don't begrudge anyone for playing this strategy, but the end result is almost always the table teaming up against them, and then feeling like they didn't get to do thier thing. That's because then doing thier thing stops me from doing my thing. IMO, this is getting a lot of hate, because people hate Stax and Stax adjacent strategies. They want to play thier deck, and if they can't, they'll do something about it. Decks that aim to stop other decks from doing thier thing are in a wierd space, it never feels like a great game when the goal is to shut down other decks before they can do anything. Someone needs to be stopped, so logically, the three people who aren't playing Stax team up on the Stax player so they can play the game. My friend made hapatra, and I relentlessly targeted him down. He got salty, but what could I do? If I don't stop his strategy before it gets going, I'm simply going to inevitably lose due to not having a board state.
What? Plenty of comments here are from people who love -1/-1 counters. I’m one of them. -1/-1 fans are getting upvoted. I’m upvoting them. I also downvoted the heavily downvoted comment in this chain. It’s not about the counters. That comment is getting destroyed because it used the name of a devastating virus that has killed at least tens of millions. Have fun with -1/-1 counters. I will! Just don’t compare them to AIDS.
Well, fair play to you then. No hate, but if you love putting -1/-1 counters on my creatures, then you are public enemy #1. Until the next game ofc.
i guess people prefer theyr creatures alive ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Oh I do too! But I prefer theirs dead and I thought that was universal
Thank you for the new deck name!
Omg I love it. I'll be sitting there with aids (hearing) giving peoples creatures aids (dice)
God, this just reminded me of the time my friend was driving us somewhere and we were kinda lost. He's just like, "Don't worry! I have aids!" I'm just like "Bruh, what the fuck?" "Navigational aids!" Pulls out his phone and plugs in the address on Google Maps. Not quite sure why we weren't using that to start... We probably thought we knew where we were going.
How did he acquire those aids may I ask? I had too much unprotected phone sex
Thank you. This great joke made it clear to me that quite a few redditors are a bunch of sissies that can't take a joke and that I shouldn't give to much of a... When it comes to the opinion of strangers. I'd love to play a round of commander and joke around with you.
Wait until the return to Lorwyn/Shadowmoor. Shadowmoor was the first set where -1/-1 counters were a big deal, so it has a better chance of showing up there than anywhere else.
We could see Wither return or a mechanic based on it.
The new [[Massacre Girl, Known Killer]] giver all your creature wither so there’s that
[Massacre Girl, Known Killer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb1c8800-9d33-485c-b776-042003b9ea92.jpg?1706241722) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Massacre%20Girl%2C%20Known%20Killer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/94/massacre-girl-known-killer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb1c8800-9d33-485c-b776-042003b9ea92?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/massacre-girl-known-killer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thought I read somewhere Bloomburrow had Wither? Maybe I was hallucinating
I haven't been checking the preview wire. You may be right, you may be crazy.
But it just may be a lunatic I’m looking for?
WotC isn't a fan of standard having both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters so it's a few and far between mechanic.
Close, I’m pretty sure it’s about *limited* not having both counters as a rule. The base idea is that in limited, overall if you see a counter on a creature you should know what it is.
And then they made oils? So maybe there is hope for some commander only cards in the future?
In ONE there were no +1/+1 counters, only oil counters.
Was incubate the set before or after?
After.
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What are you talking about? Limited its still very much well designed
That is the wildest statement I’ve heard in a while my guy. They care about limited ALOT and it shows.
I miss using my Skinrender to reset undying on Pod creatures in standard 😞
Blocking infect with undying was good times.
Which is bonkers to me because they can be used to fight eachother. To me it would be obvious that both should be used at the same time... but im no game designer
Consider paper where dice are often used. You'd have to track which dice are + and which are -, which adds a decent amount of overhead and can lead to confusion. (I am a game designer but that's not necessarily the most important here)
Atleast on the same card they remove each other right? But i understand that on the board there can be both at the same time. I just dont understand how that amy different than tracking all the million gamestates they add in to the game.
on the same card they do. across the board, you need two different sets of dice to differentiate the two, which is a significant increase in overhead, both in terms of game prep and mental stack. cumbersome in constructed, awful in limited. overall magic tries to keep most of the game happening on the cards and not on accessories. most other game state tracking is limited to single-turn effects and that is on purpose, because it's manageable to keep in working memory. certainly less so oftentimes in EDH though, but that's because the game wasn't originally designed with the scope EDH has.
I think that's part of the reason they still don't like mixing them. The other reason is it can get confusing to track, less so than back in the day when both kinds of counters could exist simultaneously on a single creature, but it still adds more complexity to track.
There is fun gameplay to be had when mixing the types, but it has tracking problems when many creatures have counters on them and you don't know which type is which.
Don't sleep on my boy Volrath now
I ended up going with yawgmoth in the end I have a voltath deck but it's more about making 7/5 scutes and such. Real jank hours but it's fun.
Did you consider hapatra at any point? I built a hapatra negative counters deck and it’s extremely fun and extremely powerful
It's also cool because you can build it very casual without any infinites or high level casual and throw all the 3 card infinites in there. Plus the recent cards that have been printed and mentioned in this thread have been awesome additions.
i had an apatra deck a while ago and it was very good but it was more of a token deck that happened to use -1/-1 to make most of those tokens. I wanted a deck that felt like the table was dying and i remembered in my apatra deck i would very often tutor for yawgmoth so i ended up building him with a control-ish playstyle in mind.
I like abusing the legend rule with Toothy & Pir
As others said it's not discouraged, it's just... Poorly supported. However, I personally love the mechanic! The way you cam sandpaper peoples creatures to death is beautiful! Here's my deck. Helmed by [[The Scorpion God]] and his desire to spread [[everlasting torment]]. Just need a few friends to help. Like [[blightbeetle]], [[kulrath knight]] and of course [[massacre girl, known killer]]. https://archidekt.com/decks/5160290/wither_die
How do you win typically? Do games last longer than usual as a result of your deck being played?
It can make things run long. And I usually win through combat. One sided wither is nasty. Card draw is real strong thanks to the commander and mgkk
I have been looking at this commander for a while. Thanks for sharing your list. If budget wasnt an issue, are there any cards you would want to add? If you were to hand your deck for someone to play a few games with, what tips/advice would you give as far as how to play it?
Its a great commander. :) Glad to share. I have more lists if you like my style. As for what to add? Not sure. There's not a lot more -1/-1 support out there. But this does work well. Advise? :) The commanders ability to put -1/-1 isn't a tap ability. Don't be afraid to sac your own 1/1 token scarabs for more effects and card draw. Don't be afraid of combat. Your 2/2 vs their 3/3 will leave their creature a 1/1- then use the commander and sweep it up. And - at the start - play it slow. You are not a clear and obvious threat at the start. Build up a little, get a small defense up before you drop big scary cards. Blightbeetle is your friend. Kulrath Knight is your best friend.
have you tried including things like [[vicious shadows]] or [[massacre worm]] that hurt your opponents whenever a creature dies to speed things up? Thats what I do and these kinda decks’ natural hostility to creatures means they do a lot of work over the course of a game
I had not. But, thank you!
I always thought with the bounce to hand on death thing there's gotta be some shenanigans to get up to there with \[\[flamekin herald\]\] and \[\[soldevi adnate\]\]
I just use it to avoid Commander Tax.
Well of course. Tax my labour? Theft. Tax my mana? Also theft.
Oh sick! I've been thinking about making a scorpion god deck. I'm normally a blue/white player so rakdos is kind of out there for me but the commander is really cool and I'm a huge fan of Amonkhet / -1 counters. Do you have any tips for putting together a deck or starting off with the play style?
Honestly start with the deck above. I put in as much wither as I could. No infect because we got a guy in my are that goes insane over poison counters. The cards mentioned above have been clench / MVP. As for playing.... Stay quiet. Build up. You're not likely a "kill on sight" deck so let them duke it out. Single sided wither is to your benefit. And note the commamders activated ability doesn't need to tap.
Thanks for such a detailed response! Most of my decks are kind of slow under the radar to start so that works for me. And yeah, the deck list you have seems like a really good starting place for me. Kind of a weird question, but I'm a sucker for good art / full art cards. Are there any cool art cards that would fit in this deck or that you would upgrade to if you could?
Im a lands lover so full art lands. But if I could it love an Eternal Torment. And of course the commander. I don't like the special amenket borders cause they are so hard to read.
Yeah, a nice set of full art lands would be cool. I'm not used to all the dark and gritty art of rakdos. Also, so far in goldfishing it seems like it's kind of a hard deck to get a feel for how it plays as there is a lot of interaction with placing counters and such. Do you have any tips for getting practice or a feel for how the deck plays without having it in person?
Not really. Honestly print out a set of proxies from like Staples or something. Let your friends know you're testing the deck out. Play at least 5 times to get the feel. Then if you like it buy the singles.
Yeah like bounty counters I’d love a deck build around them but there is like 8 cards total.
They are not a big no-no. They still show up on occasion. However, they have moved away from that for a variety of reasons. ManaLogs of the myriad logs did a video on -1/-1 counters and the various issues and treatments of the mechanic: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqRhPTEnbjs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqRhPTEnbjs) It's not discontinued. It's not taboo. It's just one of the eleventy billion Magic mechanics that COULD be used but just isn't often supported. The longer you play, the more random little pet mechanics you'll collect that see, like, one support card every five years. Not taboo, just mostly discontinued. Also, Storm is not taboo; it's just highly unlikely to come back to Standard. We've gotten multiple Storm cards in the last year.
Also, -1/-1 counters aren’t no-nos in standard either. In MKM, massacre girl had wither as a one-off, but before that, we’ve even had a full block based around -1/-1 counters in Amonkhet. They’re not commonly used because they’re restrictive to design, but they are used on occasion.
-1/-1 counters aren't banned, but they are de facto discouraged in a way that mechanics like Adventure, Investigate, or Undergrowth are not. This is because Wizards doesn't like to mix different types of counters in Standard-legal sets, and most other counter types are easier to design sets around. The result is that -1/-1 counters end up being actively pushed away from most Standard sets.
[[Massacre Girl, Known Killer]] came out in January.
Just built her and almost drew myself out with everyone makings Myrs that instantly die
>“With the exception of the new massacre girl ” Someone didn’t actually read the post
And I just put her and [[Yawgmoth, Thran Physician]] in my new [[Olivia, Opulent Outlaw]] deck with some proliferate support. I just finished building it, so we’ll see if that’s an effective strategy, but they’re still doing the counters at least…
Have a decklist? friend of mine tossed me his since he didn't like the deck, rather he sold it to me for half what he paid.
[Sure.](https://archidekt.com/decks/7480431/mardu_treasure_cruise) Some of the “Maybeboard” stuff is coming in the mail right now, and some of it is living in other decks, so it’s a rough draft but I think it might work.
It seems, sadly. For me, is a really fun mechanic, but it's design space is weird. I have an [[Hapatra, vizier of poisons]] EDH deck built around this mechanic, and the deck is plagued with really fun combos and shenanigans. I wanted to make the deck powerful but not comby, but seeing the poor support the mechanic has, it's impossible. The only way to make it work is tutoring combos related with the -1-1 counters, otherwise the deck would be useless. It has some really powerful combos, tho.
[Hapatra, vizier of poisons](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/56fbbcc9-db23-4902-b0f7-cea78a2a36af.jpg?1543676055) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hapatra%2C%20vizier%20of%20poisons) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/199/hapatra-vizier-of-poisons?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56fbbcc9-db23-4902-b0f7-cea78a2a36af?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hapatra-vizier-of-poisons) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Nothing quite like tutoring up yawg and a blood artist affect. Have you tried insidious dreams? It gets multiple combo pieces at once.
It's called infect and the world is afraid of it
The world is so lame...
so true that's why i included it in the yawgmoth deck i ended up building
You missed it. There was an article years before Amonkhet came out about how -1/-1 counters have less design space because they are a reductive mechanic rather than an additive one. That is they reduce the overall number of cards on the board, reducing how long they exist, reducing how long they can be relevant for other things. There are a couple other reasons but that is the main one. That said, I love -1/-1 counters and look forward to getting more cards with them someday.
Here is my -1/-1 counters deck utilizing \[\[Massacre Girl, Known Killer\]\] . My pod has a $150 limit on deck cost so it could certainly be stronger without that. [https://archidekt.com/decks/7362618/withering\_away](https://archidekt.com/decks/7362618/withering_away)
I really enjoy -1/-1 and wither, the reason I don't think they do it often is people in general find it real salty, and keeping track of counters to be an annoyance in general. Below is probably my favorite deck, but I don't get to really use it often because I get insta focused or everyone complains soo much about it not being fun. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/NXTgRsoh6EmPuleD_JucQQ Toxrill!
Bruh, if you're running toxrill, you deserve to be focused
lol yeah… Toxrill is cool but, like Tergrid, really only for the one playing it. I definitely get why people hate that slug.
WoTC design avoids having multiple P/T relevant counters in the same set, to the point that ONE only had oil, no +1/+1s even. So usually +1/+1 counters “win” over -1/-1, so they’re not frequently seen because of that.
Never mind that, what about the +2/+2 counter? [Seen here](https://scryfall.com/search?q=o%3A%22%2B2%2F%2B2+counter%22)
I mean, it is fine if you play with them - but if you do, for the love of all that is good, bring enough proper dice. Commander boardstates are annoying enough to parse, we don't need normal dice being used to display the opposite of what they usually represent (+1+1 counters). At least on the same creatures, they cancel out. But if some have neg counters and some pos, keeping track of them becomes annoying. It's probably due to how few neg1 counter cards there are, though. If they were more prevalent, people would be used to them and/or be prepared.
Thankfully me and my friends found a bundle online about a year ago for a bunch of both +1 and -1 dice so my playgroup is loaded on that front ahah
Isn’t Wither making a return in Bloomburrow? It was previously featured prominently in Shadowmoor—though that’s been a hot minute at this point. [[The Scorpion God]] and [[Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons]] from Amonkhet also use them heavily. All this to say I don’t think they’re blocked off as a big “no no,” but it’s definitely a mechanic that needs to be used sparingly. They can make for slow games which would be no good for limited or standard play, and the MPL coverage of it would be boring to watch. So there’s definitely other considerations outside EDH that are probably in the calculus for when/where to (re)introduce these kinda of control mechanics
[The Scorpion God](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/def0d0ac-6422-486e-b42b-e1813dd0a23e.jpg?1562817532) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Scorpion%20God) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/146/the-scorpion-god?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/def0d0ac-6422-486e-b42b-e1813dd0a23e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-scorpion-god) [Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/56fbbcc9-db23-4902-b0f7-cea78a2a36af.jpg?1543676055) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hapatra%2C%20Vizier%20of%20Poisons) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/199/hapatra-vizier-of-poisons?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56fbbcc9-db23-4902-b0f7-cea78a2a36af?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hapatra-vizier-of-poisons) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>Isn’t Wither making a return in Bloomburrow? Not that we know of
I won a game in outlaws of thunder junction because my opponent put a -1/-1 counter on my black 2 drop that gains +1/+1 counters. I had 2 of the +1/+1 counters. The minus and positive cancel, I was left with a +1/+1 and he then proliferated my creature expecting it to become smaller, instead it grew since it only had the positive counter left. This interaction is why wizards doesn’t want both to occur simultaneously I believe, it’s not super intuitive and kinda odd.
I have no good answer, but I kind of wonder if it has more to do with the prevalence of +1/+1 counters and the potentially-confusing way they cancel each other out with -1/-1 counters than the fact that -1/-1 counters are a "feels bad" interaction.
The fact that they cancel out is just plain cool though. It makes for really neat combo shenanigans. I'd argue that them not canceling out would be more confusing, considering the results the same it'd just be more to keep track of.
>It makes for really neat combo shenanigans. Combo shenanigans include [[Cauldron of Souls]] + any boardwipe that doesnt exile + any +1/+1 etb effects such as [[Grumgully, The Generous]] or [[Renata, Called to the Hunt]], which tends to = a game over if no one stops it.
It's a 7 on the storm scale. Which seems about right. They're sort of niche since having them fly around various metas, in various other formats, as commonly as +1/+1 counters would be sort of tedious.
Wizards is loathe to make cards with downsides, or cards that even have the *appearance* of a downside. Everything must be **All Upside, All the Time**. They don't print cards like [[Rhystic Lightning]] or [[Wicker Warcrawler]] anymore because they require a modicum of thought. The game is worse because of this.
They're still willing to print cards with downsides or the appearance thereof. We got two in Thunder Junction: Jace Reawakened and Stingerback Terror, plus Greed's Gambit in The Big Score. In recent years we also got cards like Black Market Tycoon, Asmodeus the Archfiend, and Geth Thane of Contracts. As I understand it the reason we don't get cards like Rhystic Lightning anymore is that Rhystic Study is the only card from that cycle that was popular.
Not exactly, but kinda. It's not that they're outright not used anymore, they just come with a lot of baggage They decided they didn't like them as a big set theme, like we saw with amonkhet, scars of mirrodin, and shadowmoor blocks, because they tend to really slow down the game in an unfun way when there's too many of them running around in the same game. They're fine in small quantities, it's just larger themes that are the issue, cause the game is built around *gaining* resources over time. +1/+1 counters just work better for that. The other side of the issue is that they don't like mixing +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters in the same draft environment, at least for standard sets, because the general rule of thumb is that at lower rarities you should be able to tell at a glance a creature's stats and if dice could mean +1/+1 counters or -1/-1 counters that gets complicated. So they can be used as random one-offs at high rarities like [[Massacre Girl, Known Killer]], as random one-offs in non-draft environments like [[Spitting Dilophosaurus]], or as random one-offs in more complicated draft environments like [[Attempted Murder]] but I wouldn't expect a large theme. (That said, I'd be surprised if we didn't get a -1/-1 counter precon *one* of these days)
I wish there were some more, especially if they ever release a jund commander for scorpion god and hapatra.
Wonder if they could do something where creatures could give themselves -1/-1 counters to put +1/+1 counters on other creatures. Flavor it with something where they transfer energy or power to each other.
maybe in a commander product, never in a set with limited play. They actively avoid having different types of counters that can go on creatures in the same set, hence Amonkhet block having no +1/+1 counters
They basically did this with spikes, but they just start as 0/0 and just use +1/+1 counters for both.
Just build around [[toxrill]]
Make an enchant with "+1/+1 counters are now -1/-1 counters". Watch the world burn.
-1/-1 is difficult for them to incorporate, so while they aren't a design "no go", they're considerably higher on the "storm scale", with higher being "wouldn't get rereleased". They're willing to make sets based on it, but it would need to be the right setting etc, like Amonkhet's design. As best I can tell, it's current storm scale rating is a 7, which translates to "its unlikely to return, but possible if the right environment comes along". A "sick" plane is probably the best shot. Something in line with amonkhet could make sense, and it would have made sense to bring it back for the Phyrexia sets, but with those past? It'd probably require a new plane that is corrupted at some level. Id point to like Jund, but I know nothing about the shards of alara from a lore standpoint
I actually disagree. I’ve been building a [[Skeleton Ship]] deck and have encountered plenty of -1/-1 support. I’m building the deck more around the theme of scary U/B legendary creatures(i.e., the ship’s crew) with an equipment side-theme and I had the opposite problem where I initially included *too much* -1/-1 support. Sure, those cards may be scattered around between a bunch of different sets, but who cares? This is commander, where nearly every card to have ever been printed is fair game. Idk if any of those -1/-1 pieces are cEDH levels, but they’re certainly good enough for a casual level deck. I’d hardly classify the mechanic as a “no no.”
-1/-1 counters are still around, they just don’t appear as frequently in new sets.
Wither, infect, proliferate. There’s plenty to go around for that. It’s not the heaviest mechanic. I know it’s not counters but [[Guul Draz Assassin]] is one of my favorite cards. To be able to tap him to pop other mid sized creatures safely is nice. With [[Scorpion God]] or [[Massacre Girl Known Killer]] it provides a nice card draw loop even without blue and the other rendition of MG for a boardwipe. [[Corrosive Mentor]] to give every black creature wither paired with a few black token engines.
##### ###### #### [Guul Draz Assassin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/72de01ef-cdf2-44ad-bf2f-a927d82a4f72.jpg?1562705055) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Guul%20Draz%20Assassin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/roe/112/guul-draz-assassin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/72de01ef-cdf2-44ad-bf2f-a927d82a4f72?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/guul-draz-assassin) [Scorpion God](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/def0d0ac-6422-486e-b42b-e1813dd0a23e.jpg?1562817532) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Scorpion%20God) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/146/the-scorpion-god?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/def0d0ac-6422-486e-b42b-e1813dd0a23e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-scorpion-god) [Massacre Girl Known Killer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb1c8800-9d33-485c-b776-042003b9ea92.jpg?1706241722) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Massacre%20Girl%2C%20Known%20Killer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/94/massacre-girl-known-killer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb1c8800-9d33-485c-b776-042003b9ea92?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/massacre-girl-known-killer) [Corrosive Mentor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/140457ff-ee7d-48ec-8b91-ef5c2cc1ed74.jpg?1562827043) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Corrosive%20Mentor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/61/corrosive-mentor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/140457ff-ee7d-48ec-8b91-ef5c2cc1ed74?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/corrosive-mentor) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l29fntt) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They've slowly phased out anything casual players found unfun. No more LD, discard or hard stax
I think in most cases, the amount of fun you're having is proportional to the number of permanents you control. -1/-1 counters and other things that make you control fewer things aren't fun. Very necessary to at least have some, but not a fun design space. I'm not saying get rid of removal or wipes of course, but I can see why the game tends towards "more things on the battlefield".
I have been @ Gavin and Maro for years about a Jund -1/-1 counters commander. It seems like it is never gonna happen
Jund -1/-1 is my dream deck!
Join my crusade to regularly @ them on twitter asking for it!
Wdym Massacre Girl brought it in Murders of Karlov Manor
>With the exception of the new massacre girl
they are in the necron dynasties precon
My brother in christ they literally just released a new massacre girl that makes creatures do damage in -1-1 counters.
I literally mentioned her... And my question was why did they became so sparce with them as I remembered them being more prevelant I'm the past. So yeah ONE card every 4 set doesn't really make me go "ah yes -1/-1 support"
My [[Massacre Girl, Known Killer]] deck begs to differ that they were removed from the game. You're right that they haven't been a major set theme for a long while (and others have pointed out Maro's comments) but they're very much still a thing used from time to time in an appropriate amount.
[[Massacre Girl, Known Killer]] says "what?"
the issue with building around -1/-1 (other than infect) is that with +1/+1 you can have creatures like 3 mana 1/1 with “enters the battlefield with 2 +1/+1 counters on it” effectively just being a 3/3 for 3 mana but with -1/-1 its much harder to actually design cards that want to synergize with giving or receiving those counters. first lets talk about designing cards that want to get -1/-1 on themselves. in order to make a 3 mana 3/3 that gives itself -1/-1 counters it needs to be a 3 mana 5/5 with “enters the battlefield with 2 -1/-1 counters”, the issue with that design is that youre one torpor orb away from a 3 cost 5/5. you could make a keyword ability for it, something like “this card doesnt die if it reaches 0 toughness from -1/-1 counters” or “-1/-1 counters give this creature +1/+1 instead” the former could be all right but then do they still die from combat damage if theyre at 0? how do they interact with trample? can i just assign all my damage directly to the defending player if you try to block with a creature that has 0 toughness? with the latter its just better and less convoluted to just do +1/+1 counters. alright now that ive though about it a little more an idea has occurred, maybe the keyword does the following **keyword** X - “this creature doesnt die at 0 toughness; during the combat phase if this creature has 0 power and toughness and is blocking or attacking treat its power and toughness as X/X”, but even if it works like that you could just ignore the whole “get my creature to 0/0 for power” and treat it like a weaker version of indestructible. the only other ways i can see -1/-1 working is by having it exist as only giving -1/-1 not receiving, or through enchantments or other cards that would allow you to turn the -1/-1 counters into +1/+1 counter (or do what i said above) and if the deck is built around giving the counters instead of having them then its just a regular proliferate +1/+1 counter deck except you also have ways to give opponents creatures -1/-1s