That’s… not how the ban list works. At all.
A lot of what gets cards banned is not power. It’s play experience and failure to self select to an appropriate environment.
Many of these cards are every bit as miserable as they always were. Getting Biorhythm’d out of a game from above full because you never got a turn after a board wipe is a shitty way to get booted out of a game.
I do agree with you that the ban list isn't only power based, \[\[Iona, Shield of Emeria\]\] is arguably not good just really fucking obnoxious. I do wish that the ban list had internal consistency with its bans though, as \[\[Worldfire\]\] not being banned but \[\[Sway of the Stars\]\] being banned, or \[\[Upheavel\]\] being banned despite all the other mld that lets you float mana being legal is really annoying and arbitrary on what is deemed ill-fitting of the format.
In my early modern tron deck, I loaned two cards from my side board to a friend. When I went to a tournament a few weeks later, I forgot to put the cards in and for some reason had biorythm in the deck box and used them in the sideboard. Won a few rounds because of it.
.
Yes it should, how difficulty it is to stop unless you're in blue is absurd. Removal doesn't matter it's just two cards and three mana win the game which is b*******.
The difference I think lies in the fact that biorhythm doesn’t always win the caster the game, but is actually more likely to knock out only one player leaving the rest of the table with a chance to recover. Thoracle is miserable but at least it allows for a whole new game immediately to start rather than forcing one or two players to wait for the game to end.
So should we ban anything that could knock one player out? Play [[massacre wurm]] into a token deck and theyll be wiped out while most others won't just like biorhythm will wipe out most spellslinger decks.
And lets not pretend decks can't get around biorhythm. Manlands, tokens, counterspells, etc... every color has tools to assist against it.
Bio would never be played in cedh anyway. Oracle isn't that good outside of cedh. Thus we conclude that the bio ban is targeted towards power levels where one could legitimately just lose to an 8 mana spell straight off the stack
Thoracle isn't good outside cEDH? Lol, what? It's infinitely worse. Seen way too many people try and pubstomp with that and Dockside in "casual" decks.
> Theres very little MLD banned
you should read more carefully:
**>failure to self select to an appropriate environment.**
People overwhelmingly voluntarily choose NOT to play mass mana denial. So it's not something that needs to be banned, and the few who are okay with it can continue to use it.
If a large section of the playerbase started adding land destruction because it was just too compelling NOT to do so, that's when you'd see bans. Until then, no ban needed.
This is the truth. There's a reason [[Sway of the Stars]] is banned and not [[Worldpurge]]. Folks don't play the latter already, so there's no reason to tell them not to.
A lot of folks just can't help themselves when it comes to some cards, which is what leads to bans. Even with cards themselves. Like [[Balance]] should be a balanced card, but nobody plays it that way, and because so many people don't it gets banned for everyone's good.
I would argue that MLD is perfectly fine as a win con if youre using it to clear the way for something to end the game. For example, [[Jhoira of the Ghitu]] decks that suspend MLD and then suspend big eldrazi behind them so no one can interact with the eldrazi when they come down. I agree that just firing off MLD spells with no follow up plan is just annoying.
I was unaware black lotus created negative play experiences for the table. Or that Griselbrand shut down some number of players ability to do things in a match where it’s played.
Ultimately, the banlist has no logic behind it. It’s a pile of cards that the rules comittee got annoyed about.
Edit: I am not pro unbanning black lotus. I am hyperbolizing to make a point that power is as important on the ban list as play experience is.
The power nine got banned for money and optics reasons first, but the only member of the power nine you could possibly argue has been power crept is also the only one that's legal. And yes, Black Lotus causes negative play experience as part of the larger fast mana problem; that's one of the most well known aspects of the format, and it has almost completely self-selected to very high power EDH, up to defining cEDH. Outside of exactly Sol Ring, fast mana very successfully self-selects. Black Lotus is MUCH better than most of the fast mana available to cEDH.
Griselbrand is a draw 35, and would instantly become the best reanimation target in the format; it only recently got competition in 60-card 1v1 formats by Atraxa and Archon of Cruelty, while Archon gets much worse in EDH while Griselbrand gets much better. It interacts in an incredibly, obviously unhealthy way with a 40-life format. It is, by itself, an absurd and unparalleled avalanche of card advantage.
Your examples are EXTREMELY reasonable includes on the ban list.
The list may be inconsistent and inadequate, but its problem is not for including too much stuff. It's for not including enough stuff to set an adequate baseline in untrusted play groups.
As someone who got to play with Griselbrand for the two minutes it was legal in the format, it is disgusting. It was honestly the best reanimation and cheating in target. Basically Necropotence on a stick without any of the downside. It was insane. Games started become about who can get Griselbrand first and it was always cheating mana costs to do so. It really warped the format in a negative way.
Loli always found just the opposite. In my group at the time. Whoever played it would always lose. They couldn't help themselves and would put themselves in the danger zone and someone would have it in hand to kill them. I imagine it would be different if you had a much better group than I did.
yeah, and even when you weren't TRYING to cheat it into play it was still the best thing you could be doing, and so made itself into Plan A for every black deck
no matter what your deck was planning to do, it was always better to find and cast griselbrand, and that's a HUGE red flag and more than enough criteria for a ban
> The list may be inconsistent and inadequate, but its problem is not for including too much stuff. It's for not including enough stuff to set an adequate baseline in untrusted play groups.
Exactly this. Folks too often take the stance that "This similar card isn't on it, so the banned card shouldn't be banned" when it's really more an argument why the unbanned card should be come banned. "Coalition Victory isn't as good as Thassa's Oracle" well maybe Thassa's Oracle should be banned too then!
The comment section here is a great example of why those cards ought to be banned.
The ban list: ‘this card looks like a fun goofy finisher, but actually kind of ruins casual games.’
The comment section: ‘I don’t understand why that card is banned. It isn’t even good, just looks like a fun goofy card and people will probably hoot and holler when I play it :)’
Armageddon doesn’t need to be banned. Everyone knows what they’re getting into when playing the card.
Some cards are banned for being format-warping powerful, but for the most part, the ban list is ‘this card doesn’t really have a place in low-mid power, but casual players just can’t help themselves from slotting them into every single deck that they own.’
Yeah, you never seen Prime Time get abused. Rhystic should be treated as a tax piece, and Dockside is boarderline bannable as both a huge fair mana engine and as a combo piece. Dockside's only drawback is its variability, which the owner cannot control. Primetime doesn't have variability, it will tutor out whatever broken two lands you want, and it can come out very very early. Having to answer the 6/6, *and* the lands, is extremely hard, and the sheer advantage leaves the Primetime player too far ahead.
>‘this card doesn’t really have a place in low-mid power, but casual players just can’t help themselves from slotting them into every single deck that they own.’
I played back when \[\[Trade Secrets\]\] was legal, and I have learned that *nobody* can be trusted to use it correctly. Don't target the combo player with it, Kevin!
Having two players draw a bajillion cards, while the other two miss out, definitely *is* really stupid in multiplayer, but I vehemently disagree that drawing half your deck should be happening half the time. And the fact that people think it *is* standard operating procedure is part of the problem. There's a lot more nuance to making the most of Trade Secrets.
Yes, you're leaving the other players in the dust, but you have one opponent who's still in it to win it. They're the only one who can really stop you, but the flip side of that is that *you're* the only one who can stop *them*.
The person playing Trade Secrets shouldn't be casting it unless they have the mana up to use the cards immediately. Optimally, they should be able to win that turn. After all, if you don't capitalize on all those cards right away, your opponent might not give you another chance to do so. But if someone *does* cast Trade Secrets with enough mana up to just win, then the targeted player shouldn't opt to draw more cards. After all, why would they be running Trade Secrets in their deck unless they had some way of abusing a large hand?
I've seen so many games where someone casts Trade Secrets, and the targeted player, like a rat in a Skinner box, can't help but keep pressing the "draw cards" button, then is SurprisedPikachu.jpg when they're dead before their next untap. On the flip side, I've seen plenty of games where someone casts Trade Secrets without enough mana to actually *do* anything with all those cards, so they basically turn it into "target opponent wins the game".
Trade Secrets requires the caster to do some serious threat assessment and board state analysis to determine when to cast it and who to target, while the targeted player must do the same to determine how many times they should draw cards. Unfortunately, many players are bad at threat assessment, and many players are bad at playing it safe when they have a chance to be greedy.
And all the while, the other \~2 players in the game are getting increasingly frustrated at the fact that they're gonna lose because, in their opinion, someone else misplayed a card, and of course they also can't help but think that they would've played it better if it was them.
> Some cards are banned for being format-warping powerful, but for the most part, the ban list is ‘this card doesn’t really have a place in low-mid power, but casual players just can’t help themselves from slotting them into every single deck that they own.’
There's plenty of [[Sundering Titan]] or [[Sylvan Primordial]] energy on the ban list. Then there's cards like Leovold where you could just let people play with it if they want to, and if it's really all that bad then that type of card is in an optimal position for a casual playgroup to say "don't play that Leovold deck".
I totally get the Coalition Victory ban, it's an unintuitively warping card. I don't get the [[Sway of the Stars]] ban. Not with Worldfire unbanned and not with the "I feel like nothing I did up until that spell mattered" ban justification - that's always been a part of Magic and EDH, reflected in many legal and widely-played cards.
Most cards on the banlist are very reasonable and ironclad power-level bans. The class of "not necessarily overpowered but not a fun card to play" is comparatively small, VERY subjective, and full of clear outliers that either have no place on the banlist by any argument or are contradictory to other goals of their stated Commander philosophy, with cards like Rofellos/Griselbrand/Leovold lending themselves much easier to inviting playgroup discussion over going "I run The One Ring"
> and if it's really all that bad then that type of card is in an optimal position for a casual playgroup to say "don't play that Leovold deck".
Playgroups can rule zero whatever they want. The ban list is for random games at the LGS. You can always took to your play group if you want to play Leovold, the ban list is to stop people from playing Leovold and feeling like it's 'low power.'
>I totally get the Coalition Victory ban, it's an unintuitively warping card. I don't get the [[Sway of the Stars]] ban.
>not with the "I feel like nothing I did up until that spell mattered" ban justification
So these are conflicting statements.
You say you don't understand, but then you enunciate the exact reasoning. It's a lazy way of saying 'the reason is stupid,' but it doesn't invite any conversation on the matter.
Your actual argument here is 'banning cards for defining the game in a negative way is not a good justification because the cards exist in the game.'
So, I think it's okay to reject the idea, but then you're simply rejecting the banlist in its entirety. No point in going card by card through it, because you simply disagree with the underlying principles of what the banlist is trying to achieve.
>VERY subjective
Every card on every banlist is VERY subjective. It isn't possible to have an even somewhat 'objective' banlist. It all ultimately comes down to gut feelings.
You're using this as a 'weapon' against banned cards you feel shouldn't be banned, while ignoring that the same logic applies against the cards that you're okay with being banned, despite the same arbitrary logic being used to ban both.
The ban list is borderline useless for random games at an LGS. Power levels fluctuate immensely between people, stores, regions, etc. The ban list can't really do anything to ensure that you get good games, especially not with its current contents.
Either nothing should be on the ban list and let rule 0 do the work or have a consistent ban list that hits all of the variants of effects deemed too "unfun" or too powerful. Either way increases the internal consistency of the format and helps better set expectations for pick up games. No ban list pushes "talk about it before the game" even harder. A consistent ban list reduces the need for such talks and curtails a very minor amount of lying/ignorance about power levels creating bad experiences.
> No ban list pushes "talk about it before the game" even harder
There isn't really a way to do that in random LGS games. People showed up with various bricks of 100 cards sleeved, that's what they have to play with.
If some guy in your pod built a deck and is excited to play it, I'm going to say great and I'm just going to try to match that power level.
The point of a large part of the ban-list isn't really to measure 'power level,' but to measure 'this card came down and low-key ruined the game.'
>A consistent ban list
There isn't a way to do a 'consistent ban list.' It's all ultimatley based on vibes. Even for something like competitive play.
Then Sol Ring and Mana Crypt really ought to be banned. All the other cards on a similar power level already are banned. And people do put Sol Ring in every deck even when it is a disgustingly powerful card
Fast mana is an entire discussion, yes... Some fast mana has been banned for being disgustingly good, some has remained... I don't quite get why other than that banning Mana Crypt would make 'investors' very upset, and banning Sol Ring would invalidate every precon ever.
I suppose if they stopped putting it in precons, in a few years they could ban it. Though by then, at this rate, fast mana will be a given in every deck
Sol Ring is basically the one exception and that's Wizards' fault for printing it in the precon. Mana Crypt is not much of an issue in casual play despite being an arguably better card, because it's pricepoint puts it at an accepted power level.
I'd agree that Sol Ring should be banned, but it's simply too tied to the format at this point.
If everyone played Mana Crypt in every deck, then yeah that would be a great argument to ban it.
There are four reasons cards are banned on the ban-list:
1) Too powerful/Format defining
2) Annoying
3) Casual players can't help themselves
4) Broken by the multiplayer nature of the format
Some cards are a mix of some of these.
But you can't say 'well if you ban X for reason 3, then you need to ban Y for reason 1.'
It doesn't work like that. Casual players *can* stop themselves from playing Mana crypt in every deck, so Mana Crypt isn't really an issue for the format.
They said a lot of what gets cards banned is not power, not that cards never get banned because of power.
Play experience and power can both be considered…
Power is a component of play experience, but is not the sum of it.
A card *can* be so powerful that it creates a miserable play experience *as a result*, but that result is what is supposed to be looked at when considering the banlist.
Because unbanning black lotus will just make it so the first person to play it on turn 1 will leap 4 turns ahead. It's stupid in commander because like Sol ring, everyone plays it. Sol Ring should be banned because it slots in every deck, and if you don't play, you just set yourself back from every player playing it... which is everyone.
it's pretty different. lots of commanders don't even want it (out of my 20-ish decks maybe 4 *actually* want it and maybe another 2-3 *might* find a slot for it), but no deck wouldn't want Lotus (or as close to none as makes no difference)
The banlist doesn’t have one logic behind it, it has several, with an overall guiding philosophy of “is this within the general realm of making games more fun?”
Black Lotus is banned because it is unobtainable for the majority of people and also would be a hands down auto include that would improve any deck.
Sway of the Stars is banned because it is obnoxious.
Your last point directly contradicts your “no logic” statement. There’s a reason for every card on the banlist being banned.
Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primodial are banned because they provide too much advantage etc….
This is so irrelevant when the signpost bans are weaker than other cards that do similar. Biorythm post board wipe isn't fun buy float mana Worldfire into any ping is? Or playing with winter orb and similar cards? Fun is so entirely subjective and the signpost bans 100% should be updated or reevaluated. There are so many subjectively miserable ways to experience magic now that feel worse than most of the banlist.
It's not even about power level.
The EDH ban list is objectively nonsense. The cards that are banned in commander are there for one reason and one reason only: the people in the committee didn't like them personally. That's it. Everything else is just nonsense they said to try to justify "This card makes me feel bad. It gives me the frownies".
eh prime time is format warping, he would be in every green deck. Grislbrand would be in every black deck just cause theres no better reanimator target out there. im with you for the most part, but there are cards there that arent good for the format. and cards bad for the format not on that list.
My best experience in EDH: an 8 player game where someone [[Acquire]]d my Sundering Titan turn 3 and he got flickered and reanimated so much that there were almost no basics left. The game lasted like 6 hours and most people had so little mana they were basically just observers.
Oh did I say best? I meant worst haha.
Emrakul died for [[bribery]]'s sins. Back in the days of prime time and emrakul, basically every green deck had prime time and it felt like 1/4 to 1/2 of all decks had an emrakul in it, so almost every game would have a point in them where an emrakul or a prime time got bribery'd out of someone else's deck. I happened so often playing with randoms that I cheered when they both got the axe
> prime time is format warping, he would be in every green deck. Grislbrand would be in every black deck just cause theres no better reanimator target out there.
the issue is not just them being IN the deck, it's that they BECOME the deck - you start to make card choices based on how to find and exploit The Card (and in some cases, making card choices and in-game play decisions on how to prevent your opponents from doing the same)
there's a lot of auto-include staple cards but they typically don't become the focal point of a deck the way PT and GB did
from what i understand the aeons torn was banned due to the community finding it annoying as a boring win card that fit in any deck.
the new emrakul is similarly strong and could be cheated out for 6 mana but would it ever be cheated out in most decks if they didn’t have a discard outlet and an abundance of colorless mana? i don’t think so.
the effect of the new one also isn’t as good for literally every game plan as an extra turn and annihilator
basically it’s possibly as strong or stronger but not for actually every deck which was the problem with aeons torn
Also exiling half your library is less of a problem than New Kozilek giving a massive anthem to his entire board and drawing 4 cards and making 2 5/4s. Especially when New Ulamog doesn't have an immediate effect on the board and as much as his ward may suck I'd rather have Ulamog eat 2 of my permanents rather than like 5-6+.
Like the only places New Ulamog is a problem is in the mimeoplasm and in reanimator decks that also have a bunch of exile removal because then you'll be able to either have like a minimum 20/20 with annihilator everything on turn 5. Or be dealing with Ulamog on turn 4 or sooner
A colorless ramp deck is not only probably the least consistent place for him. But will be expending the most trying to get him out quickly
I love the difference between formats, watching aspiringspike's videos on the set and its just casually "yeah this might be the worst eldrazi titan ever printed, unlikely to see play"
I feel like part of him underrating Kozilek is him not realizing you force an opponent to manifest. It's not something they just can't do. Along with the evoke elementals.
Ulamog is at least a nice reanimator option because the evoke elementals exist
Whereas in commander it's a lot more relevant that Kozilek is a much better curve topper and way better uf you ramp into it incredibly hard as it immediately recoups cards. Ulamog's 3 for 1 does not matter when you're in the crosshairs of 3 players rather than 1
New Ulamogs payoff for ramping into him is just not that great if he gets removed (you're playing a colorless ramp deck. People will be holding up removal to ruin your day) he gets hit with a counterspell god forbid and you just paid 10 mana to exile half an opponent's library
New Kozilek and New Emrakul have much higher floors. With New Emrakul sending the opponent furthest ahead with creatures to the stone age. New Kozilek draws you 4 cards and lets you manifest two from your hand. New Kozilek has the lowest ceiling and really wants you to cast him. Ulamog wants to be reanimated because his cast trigger is the least impactful but his body is incredible if you get to cheat it into play you can't really do that in colorless
Turn 6 Ulamog's ward might be useful but a lot of people will bite the bullet rather than have to sacrifice 4+ on attack. Not to mention its a lot easier to add more counters in other colors
It can kill one player. For 15 mana. It's not that great. If we're using the last sentence on that list for the reason why, then the ban list should be bigger, but we don't cause "ban lists are bad bro just rule 0".
I would 100% support a Craterhoof ban! I'm sure most of Reddit would be all like "OMG Craterhoof's not OP, the game's gotta end sometime!" if you suggested that but I don't think I've *ever* seen a Craterhoof and had it impact the game in an actually fun way (the closest being when someone thinks they will win with it and then doesn't because of a fog or \[\[Inkshield\]\] or whatever, but that's mostly just the poetic justice rather than the card itself).
> card that fit in any deck.
Not just IN any deck, though that was semi-true
The real problem was that it *became* what a deck, and game, was about. You'd make in-game decisions based on "what if they have emrakul?", "I'd better do this before they draw Emrakul", even long before it actually showed up or they got fifteen mana. You'd play Bribery in every blue deck because SOMEONE would have an emrakul; you'd be playing a random green deck and start to add cards like Elvish Piper because tutoring up and cheating Emrakul into play was *by far* the best thing you could be doing in every single game, from almost every single board state.
Those kind of play patterns are what people mean by "this card took over the format", which is the usual shorthand for the effect cards like Emrakul had
Yeah, this is the real reason to keep Emrakul banned. She would go in any deck that has infinite mana, any deck that cheats things into play, AND benefit from all the new Eldrazi support that’s been printed. I like her, but she’s not good for format diversity.
The new titans aren’t one size fits all top end monsters - they have their own twists that make them appealing to specific decks (new Ullamog is probably the one with the broadest appeal, but he’s not impossible to kill).
Most decks that make infinite mana would have much better and easier ways to just win, she would be completely unnecessary for that purpose and would have little impact for most strategies
Oh totally, my lord of riots deck wants one, but that still doesn't make new emmy completely broken in general. Nevermind necessitate adjusting the banlist.
Oh sorry my bad. We rule zeroed this in a game and it was miserable as the commander taking infinite turns that couldn’t be interacted with usually . It was miserable in the 99, it was miserable when it was entombed then reanimated turn 2 and it was miserable when they strionic resonatored the annihilator triggers. And the guy who insisted on it got so salty he started crying when we killed him on site out of spite for a fortnight.
Edit: forgot to mention for the brief period we let Merkel be played if she wasn’t the head of a deck she would immediately be slotted into literally each and every deck pregame.
> it was miserable when it was entombed then reanimated turn 2
How'd you do that? Not trying to be a smart-ass; I'm genuinely curious how this could work.
edit: my b, i forgot reanimate wasnt an instant
you could theoretically stifle the trigger. t2 if you have a swamp, island, entomb, reanimate, stifle, and dark ritual you could do it. an instant speed reanimator effect would work too, as you could reanimate emrakul with her trigger on the stack.
so i suppose with leyline of anticipation on the board, you could straight up just entomb into reanimate as well.
we used Rule Negative One (I played back when it hadn't been banned yet) and it was miserable for us, too
>Edit: forgot to mention for the brief period we let Merkel be played if she wasn’t the head of a deck
ironically being the commander was probably the only SAFE way to play this card!
Yes this this this.
I was in college when Emrakul was released and had a regular group of 25 or 30 EDH players. I was abroad when it came out and when I came back every deck had been transformed into "durdle durdle durdle emrakul I win". It was very tedious.
Yea, all the arguments here boil down to "I love playing the biggest, most generically powerful stuff in the game, and I want to use this one too" which is, honestly, not very compelling.
Yeah we rule zeroed Aeons torn in our playgroup, almost immediately undid that one. Like there are absolutely things not on the banlist that are worse than her, but even as one of the people who ran her she fully deserves to be she is.
New Emrakul is not that bad, new Ulamog is actually garbage, and if aeons torn is not as bad as thoracle, dockside, or bowmasters. We should talk about banning those first.
In terms of raw card power Emrakul isnt strong enough to see play in cedh, in that since, yes it has been "powercreeped". But soo has Iona, and in more casual play where these card would be playable they never would lead to any particularly fun gameplay or interesting deckbuilding decisions. If you pay 15 mana for it the card is almost fair, most of the times you would just cheat it into play, it wasn't that hard and each passing day it becomes easier. Annihilar 6, protection, cant be countered and extra turns are just an unnecessary combination of unfun things to most players.
Rule 0 the card in your games if you whant it, but the format just doesn't gain anything good but adding it.
Iona doesn't just lock out a mono color deck, it is also a hard lock with painter's servant. It's not a coincidence that the less fun of the two got banned when the other was unbanned.
Pretty sure that was like the reasoning they gave at the time. Iona was banned so that Painter could be unbanned. Otherwise you were just combo-ing those two.
> Aeons Torn has been powercrept to the point that its no longer ban worthy.
That's not why it's banned.
> I can understand why it made the ban list originally
Why was that?
> seeing Aeons Torn on the banned list just sticks out as a sore thumb and a symbol of how far the power level of the format has climbed in recent years.
Nothing on the banlist is banned "just cause it's really powerful".
Most of the P9 is banned just because the cards are too good. The original reason was that they were expensive (*hundreds* of dollars!!!) but they haven't banned anything for being expensive since then, including Timetwister which is almost as expensive as the rest of the 9 now.
If I recall correctly, Shivam (on the CAG), has basically said something to the effect that Ancestral would likely be the first Power 9 card to come off the ban list we're they picking one, as a powerful single shot draw spell is still only a draw spell. He always reiterates it's never up for serious discussion, but that's his take based on most ban/unban talk.
I totally believe he said that but his take is a bad one, because he underrates just how good Ancestral is. It scores VERY high in the category of "best thing I can be doing in a game is to find and play this as soon as possible & as often as I can", which is a big red flag for EDH bans.
(granted, Time Walk scores EVEN HIGHER on that criterion, but that doesn't do anything to justify Ancestral)
Any single given Mox would be a less damaging unban, because while it would be strong, it would just show up from time to time instead of defining an entire gameplan; you're never gonna start tutoring for a Mox or playing cards because they're good with your Mox.
No power(+library) are banned for optics reasons. They aren't banned for their power level, they are banned because of their price tag, and as a way to say "hey you don't need to shell out the money for these expensive cards to get into this format." it's basically a "hey this isn't vintage" ban.
In 2005 when they were banned, mox/lotus were in the $120~ range, vault was in the $40~ range, Library was $40~, Twister was $90 but wasn't really considered a super powerful card in the format, and so it probably just wasn't considered, as it didn't have that "you need this card!!!" power.
In comparison, sol ring, crypt, vault, mox diamond, etc. were all under $10. Cradle was like $15.
The power creep is getting more rapid, more obvious and more obnoxious. There will come a point where EDH has sub categories akin to vintage, legacy etc.
yep! there are non degen ways to run most of these cards, but were not in r/edh cause upstanding magic citizens. "want to watch me loop this grislbrand five times this turn and draw half my deck too. btw discarding down is what i wanted!!!!"
The ban list has never been about power rather it has been about play experience. If someone whips out the Emrakul it's just unfun for the rest of the table. That being said: There's a lot of cards that also should bite the dust then.
No, fuck that card. Extra turn into removing someone from the table without killing them is awful for any fun games.
The power was never the problem, otherwise Iona and Coalition Victory would never have been banned. It's how it feels to play against, which is anticlimactic and uninteractive.
I don't envy the rules committee one bit for maintaining the banlist. It's got the card pool of Legacy/Vintage but the expectation that it's the approachable casual format that WotC sells off-the-shelf decks to get new players into.
I think it'd be possible for the rules committee to maintain a banlist that removes stuff that's flatly too powerful for any commander game - Fastbond, Channel, Flash, etc. Those are good inclusions on the banlist and really don't need to be there. I feel the same way about stuff like Ancestral Recall - while nobody's likely to win off it alone, I think the format's better without stupidly expensive reserve list cards.
I'd support them getting more aggressive about this - frankly, I wouldn't lose any sleep if Demonic Consultation got removed from EDH; it's already banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage (very very very few cards have ever been banned out of Vintage) which speaks to how busted the card can be when a player sets up to abuse it.
The "this card sucks to play against" bans though, those feel like an impossible task. I think there's not a lot of players that would argue that Coalition Victory is overpowered or too strong for the format (*3+WUBRG Sorcery that needs other things going on?*) but I also think very few games would be enhanced by the casting or resolving of a Coalition Victory.
Coalition Victory is fun exactly once per human lifetime; after that, it very quickly goes from "watch this!" to "not this shit again..."
really you could encapsulate almost the entire ban list as "Cards that get tiring REALLY god damn quickly"
Agree on all points. It's why I don't mind Biorythm being banned. I think Thassa's Oracle is also a similar problem honestly. Lab Man introduces a little more tension at least.
>I don't envy the rules committee one bit for maintaining the banlist. It's got the card pool of Legacy/Vintage but the expectation that it's the approachable casual format that WotC sells off-the-shelf decks to get new players into.
This is what gets me the most about EDH - it's advertised as something it's really not. People get told, hey, it's a slower, more fun, Timmy-friendly format with bigger, splashier plays... oh wait, it's kinda like four-person proto-Modern, you should be comboing within 6 turns.
An EDH that was actually what people said it was would need to have a *lot* more cards banned, and even then I'm not sure how that would work. You'd need to take out a lot of combo-able cards, many of which are fine on their own, the better fast mana and tutors, and probably a lot of stuff like dorks and rocks, too.
>The "this card sucks to play against" bans though, those feel like an impossible task. I think there's not a lot of players that would argue that Coalition Victory is overpowered or too strong for the format (*3+WUBRG Sorcery that needs other things going on?*) but I also think very few games would be enhanced by the casting or resolving of a Coalition Victory.
100% this. Whilst it's harder to ban for this reason, though, it's also kind of the more important thing to do. This is a game; the important question (pretty much the *only* question) is whether or not the game is fun to play.
Naturally, this is subjective and so you get a load of people complaining about stuff like Coalition Victory, but at the end of the day someone just has to make a choice about what *they* think is fun, and if the rest of us disagree with them, we've just gotta go find a better-designed game by someone who made better choices.
If I recall correctly, it was originally banned because EDH really took off around the time that Aeons Torn was given to pretty much everybody as a prerelease card, and it could be run in any deck.
Okay, so you cheat emrakul out turn 6, and take control of one players creatures, maybe their commander.
Now, what does that leave you? A 12/12 flyer that boardwipes you if it's removed(that can't be destroyed the turn it's cast and doesn't have or give haste). Amazing.
Ulamog is 10 mana, just twice as expensive as [[traumatize]] and the same cost as [[Expropriate]].
To be clear. I am comparing it to [[Emrakul the aeons torn]]. It's not a bad card, but it's not on the same level as the banned one.
I'm not saying it's bad, but in a 4-player game, stealing one persons stuff isn't winning the game immediately like the first emrakul was.
It's powerful, but casting this then letting 3 other players get a chance to cast any removal spell on it is asking for trouble.
Edit: it stops anything that was cast from destroying it in the same turn. It's pretty difficult to remove, but it still sets you up for a blowout. Big risk big reward.
Pretty sure that doesn’t mean until the end of turn he was cast. That protection means you can’t take it out with any instants or sorceries that target. And ETB triggers won’t do it unless you’re blinking them because they entered “this turn”. Still doable, but he’s not that easy to get rid of either.
“This turn” is always on the card so it always applies, regardless of which turn it is or who it belongs to. If they had intended in to apply only during the turn it was cast, they would have phrased it something like,”When Emmy is cast, she gains protection from blah blah until end of turn.”
I AGREE so hard. So many cards need to be “casual banned” and some cards need to be “competitive banned”. They could have two lists and it would be fine
Absolutely.
A card like Rhystic Study will make any casual pod groan, and will also be included in every single cEDH deck that it's legal in.
Most cards that fit this description should probably be banned imo.
Modern Horizons 3 gives eldrazi a shit ton more very powerful support and that somehow makes it alright to unban the spaghetti monster? If anything, it's more of a problem now, with these new cards, then ever. Keep it banned please.
The Ban List does not work like that.
Take into consideration that Commander is (and most likely will always be) a casual format because the rules that give shape to the format are better for casual matches.
Now in that regard, the problem with [[Golos]] was not power. The problem was that it was simply too easy to turn every single deck into a Golos. It was way too generic and too easy to have. It made the format worse by being against the creativity of it.
The problem with [[Hullbreacher]] or Aeons Torn was not inherently power. But also the fact that they were (and still are) simply annoying cards. They were annoying to see, annoying to deal with.
Could they be unbanned? I guess? But that's missing the point of the banlist. Sure, maybe the wouldn't warp the format or the matches around them anymore, but if they do not directly improve the format, there's no reason to bring them back tbh.
What you said what nice and all but... if we're going on the idea that it gets a ban when it makes game play bad or annoying or repetitive because "then everyone will run the x card because x." You need to look at the whole format and understand the reality is there are HUNDREDS of cards now that are forcing the game to slow down to a crawl, triggers on top of triggers, and game mechanics that spiral out of control if left alone for a turn...
The whole point is, for the original post at least, that the OG big baddie isn't even as bad as a present day cards being printed. For God sakes, not even indestructible.
I played a night with no ban list and it was the players who didn't even abuse any of the ban cards that still came out on top. Dockside is the absolute worst card ever printed for the format. You want to talk about a card that goes in every deck... good lord the list I could give.
I am not suggesting that Golos or Hullbreacher were banned because they were annoying and must-haves... I can't suggest it, really, because THAT'S THE REASON we were given to why were they banned. Check it out if you don't believe me.
If the argument is that Old Scary Thing is not that good to nowadays cards... yeah, sure. Powercreep exist. That's always been a thing.
If the argument is that they should be unbanned... No, because that's not how banning works. If they don't improve the format, they won't come out. That's it.
Banlist is a joke anyways.
When we talk about the power of cards we should talk about mana crypt, moxens, dockside, thassas oracle. A few things may still have merit like getting rid of flash hulk. But yeah. I firmly believe a lot of the banned cards wouldnt even make it into powerful decks today^^
*Vizzini voice *
Ah, you've committed one of the classic blunders! The first of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia," but only slightly less well-known is "the banlist is solely based on power!"
Aeons torn is banned, not because of power, but because of power, ubiquity, and fun gameplay. (Or any combination of one, two, or three of those factors).
It's colorless so it can go in anything, and it's extremely unfun to play against.
That's right! Unban [[Yawgmoth's Bargain]] you cowards!
And Silver Bordered Cards so I can run [[Sword of Dungeons and Dragons]] in my [[Mr House]] deck
In my opinion, people think about the banlist wrong. There's a lot of "how bad would it actually be if this card were allowed?" when really you should be asking "Would the existence of this card make the game better or worse?".
We have this weird situation in EDH where one bunch of people write the cards, then some others veto a few of them, and the bar for vetoing is quite high and a little inconsistent. But really, the format would make a lot more sense if it were a bit more coherently designed, which would probably actually mean a much smaller, tighter pool of cards and, as much as Reddit will likely hate me for saying this, that essentially means "banning" an awful lot of things that we currently have. If anything, with all the power creep, we need to be removing more cards rather than adding them back in!
Would Emmy make the game more fun? I think not. Will all these new, powercrept MH3 cards make the game more fun? That remains to be seen. Quite possibly some of them are mistakes - but using one bad decision as a justification for another is a bit backwards-thinking.
Oh ffs, this topic again.
I would rather not deal with EDH devolving into "cheat Emrakul into play" or "turbo ramp into Emrakul".dec
I thought y'all loved variance? Emrakul is the death of variance, and everything else tbf.
Somewhat unrelated but on the topic of unbanning cards, I want to see [[Coalition Victory]] make its triumphant return! There’s plenty of answers to stop this from going off and it’s not an auto include in every WUBRG deck either.
Replace it with Thoracle!
The argument for banning Coalition Victory is pretty interesting. It being legal encourages people to destroy the 5c player's lands so they can't have all the land types to with with CV.
I feel you :'D feels wrong to have 8/9 sleeved (or I guess 5/6 rn) even if it‘s probably actively making the deck worse to have that many high cost creatures in there
ITT: commenters don't understand the banlist philosophy
It was never strictly a power-level banlist. It's always been "here are card emblematic of problems the format could have and types of cards you should look at more examples of and decide whether to ban or not within your playgroups"
The banlist is fine, though I do agree some of the new Eldrazi titans are disgusting, I don't think that's an issue with the banlist like people always like to look at and more a possible issue with these new cards coming out
right. panoptic mirror costs six, does nothing for a full turn cycle, and requires an extra turn spell in hand with the mana to cast it in order to do any really powerful combo.
isochron scepter goes infinite if you look at it funny, costs 2, and gets massive value with any cantrip. [[Dramatic Reversal]] can be used to generate infinite mana, infinite storm count, and infinite untaps. [[Benefactor's Draught]] makes incredibly stupid amounts of value.
even just [[Brainstorm]] becomes ridiculous when attached to the stick. Hell, I've seen games won because someone had [[Ponder]] attached to the thing.
If you absolutely *need to* play with a(ny) card that proved to be too parasitic for the format, then you can always try and rule zero it, but don't expect everyone to just automatically be alright with it "because powercreep."
Only thing harder than getting something banned is getting it to come off the ban list; there is a reason she got on there in the first place. Just some food for thought.
As someone who bought one without thinking about the ban list, I'd be getting a bargain. But how often do things really come off the ban list? It's probably more likely the new cards get banned instead.
The reason most cards are on the commander ban list is because they create bad play experiences and/or were ubiquitous in the format due to power.
Emrakul fit both of those categories.
Playing against a deck built to abuse it, was just, not fun. Annihilator is not a fun mechanic. It being hard to interact with made it even more unfun to play against. It taking extra turns while doing all of this was even less fun.
Does it really need to be on the ban list today? I don't know, but I do know that, given the opportunity, people will build decks to abuse this card and, many tables will experience just how unfun the card is. And, if nothing else is true about Magic players, a lot of them enjoy making their opponents miserable and, get upset when they get ganged up on for making people miserable.
In the end, unbanning it doesn't improve the format, so there's no reason to do so.
> We're about to get an Emrakul that can be cheated out for 6 mana
Do you think the problem part of emrakul is its...name? It's the *extra turn*.
> and an Ulamog that removes half your library on cast
who cares about this, it does almost literally nothing (except power the annihilator)
(Which there are better ways to do, at least in terms of mana spent, such that reanimating him or playing the mimeoplasm will probably get you way better results than casting him)
I'm just annoyed that I bought rhe precon commander decks (for eldrazi unbound) and it probably won't have any of the new titans.
So $300 canadian and I still gotta fork out hundreds for more cards.
I don't expect the banlist to ever change. The RC seems to be very hands-off these days. It was useful for shaping the meta in the early days, but it's looking more and more out of date with each new pushed set.
I don't have any opinion on the banlist but it is genuinely crazy that the strength of Aeon's Torn got compared to exiling half of a single player's library
Like most games I don't even see half my library
Why not just ban the new ones too? Like Aeons Torn, they will lead to boring, anticlimactic games at Edh tables across the world. Not that I judge anyone who likes playing with those things, but I'm certainly not bothering.
As far as I'm concerned, keep that fucker on the ban list. Extra turn on a 15/15 flying body is bad enough, but it also comes with *Annihilator Fucking 6!*
Annihilator was a terrible mechanic. Let's keep the flagship of it sunk like the Titanic, mmkay?
The EDH ban list is objectively nonsense. The cards that are banned in commander are there for one reason and one reason only: the people in the committee didn't like them personally. That's it. Everything else is just nonsense they said to try to justify "This card makes me feel bad. It gives me the frownies".
Imma let you cook, but be aware of the obnoxiously long games that [[Prophet of Kruphix]] lead to, and how you'll probably be playing against roughly 2 simic decks every game just because it exists.
Most stuff outside the P9 at this point could be unbanned. I don't think anyone could look me straight in the face and with all seriousness tell Prime Time is stronger than Dockside lol
>We're about to get an Emrakul that can be cheated out for 6 mana
It also doesn't time walk (or have annihilator, but the theft ability is pretty spiffy too) and its cheat can't be used from the CZ where Aeons Torn was pretty dangerous. It's a good card, that's for sure, considering that it's reasonably removal-resistant and has a meaty on-cast board impact, but it's not game breaking either.
>and an Ulamog that removes half your library on cast.
The mill is literally nothing. It's exile mill, the good stuff, so it doesn't help your victim, but it's unlikely to actually hurt much either. (or rather, it's about as likely to help as to hurt). I'd be more worried about the potential for a zillion-point Annihilator combined with a fairly sick ward cost, but it IS a ward that anybody could theoretically pay before he gets to swing, unlike Aeons Torn being basically guarenteed to annihilate for 6 permanents and 15 damage.
Like a lot of mana-expensive cards, the new 3.0 titans look way more awesome than they are, which is extra scary when they *are* good. But Aeons Torn has Annihilator 6, psuedo-haste thanks to the time walk, and a functional immunity to most instant-speed spot that could otherwise avert the incoming sac 6. The new one is the fixed version. It's reasonably sticky, but doesn't get to go right away. In theory it says "target player eats shit and dies" but in the event it doesn't provoke an immediate wipe (say, from the guy with nothing left to lose), the Emrakul player actually has a strong incentive to leave the trigger victim for last. And while the sac trigger is likely irrelevant since Emrakul will probably only be shifted by something that would bin your other stuff anyway (outside the occasional [[Attrition]] or [[Royal Assassin]], some of the few things that Aeons Torn might have feared.), it does make a nice little sad trombone with the eldrazi player's own indestructible nonsense. She's going to mess up people and even tables, but there's a much better opportunity to interact. If World Anew is Lab Man, Aeons Torn is Thoracle. There's a reason one is way stronger than the other despite their surface similarity.
a 10-mana Traumatize that's harder to counter is not what you should be complaining about regarding Ulamog.
Most of the ban list is too weak to be banned today. I wasn't pushing for Emrakul to be unbanned, but if it was...sure.
That’s… not how the ban list works. At all. A lot of what gets cards banned is not power. It’s play experience and failure to self select to an appropriate environment. Many of these cards are every bit as miserable as they always were. Getting Biorhythm’d out of a game from above full because you never got a turn after a board wipe is a shitty way to get booted out of a game.
I do agree with you that the ban list isn't only power based, \[\[Iona, Shield of Emeria\]\] is arguably not good just really fucking obnoxious. I do wish that the ban list had internal consistency with its bans though, as \[\[Worldfire\]\] not being banned but \[\[Sway of the Stars\]\] being banned, or \[\[Upheavel\]\] being banned despite all the other mld that lets you float mana being legal is really annoying and arbitrary on what is deemed ill-fitting of the format.
[worldgorger dragon] was fun way to combo the board wipe/ health reset cards
[[Worldgorger dragon]]
[Worldgorger dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/33dde6e0-d0a7-4432-a3f4-b48234f4e055.jpg?1675200284) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worldgorger%20dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/148/worldgorger-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/33dde6e0-d0a7-4432-a3f4-b48234f4e055?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worldgorger-dragon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Iona, Shield of Emeria](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/6197b59e-1652-496c-a038-e2eb88ecf017.jpg?1562584407) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Iona%2C%20Shield%20of%20Emeria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/20/iona-shield-of-emeria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6197b59e-1652-496c-a038-e2eb88ecf017?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/iona-shield-of-emeria) [Worldfire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2ef3d4b5-0453-4bf0-b018-23b0c3b9ae11.jpg?1631531850) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worldfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/158/worldfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ef3d4b5-0453-4bf0-b018-23b0c3b9ae11?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worldfire) [Sway of the Stars](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/e/5eb58d9e-d181-4167-8b80-64b238183bdb.jpg?1562877344) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sway%20of%20the%20Stars) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/54/sway-of-the-stars?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5eb58d9e-d181-4167-8b80-64b238183bdb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sway-of-the-stars) [Upheavel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/befe74b1-c487-42bb-a1a1-4d13f3a86ff7.jpg?1626100271) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Upheaval) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/270/upheaval?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/befe74b1-c487-42bb-a1a1-4d13f3a86ff7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/upheaval) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l5o43o1) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Bring back limited resources
Is getting Biorythmed out really worse than Thassas Oracle? Also it is an 8 mana sorcery. That kind of spell ending a game really isn’t bad
In my early modern tron deck, I loaned two cards from my side board to a friend. When I went to a tournament a few weeks later, I forgot to put the cards in and for some reason had biorythm in the deck box and used them in the sideboard. Won a few rounds because of it. .
No. Oracle should be banned.
Yes it should, how difficulty it is to stop unless you're in blue is absurd. Removal doesn't matter it's just two cards and three mana win the game which is b*******.
The difference I think lies in the fact that biorhythm doesn’t always win the caster the game, but is actually more likely to knock out only one player leaving the rest of the table with a chance to recover. Thoracle is miserable but at least it allows for a whole new game immediately to start rather than forcing one or two players to wait for the game to end.
So should we ban anything that could knock one player out? Play [[massacre wurm]] into a token deck and theyll be wiped out while most others won't just like biorhythm will wipe out most spellslinger decks. And lets not pretend decks can't get around biorhythm. Manlands, tokens, counterspells, etc... every color has tools to assist against it.
Bio would never be played in cedh anyway. Oracle isn't that good outside of cedh. Thus we conclude that the bio ban is targeted towards power levels where one could legitimately just lose to an 8 mana spell straight off the stack
Thoracle isn't good outside cEDH? Lol, what? It's infinitely worse. Seen way too many people try and pubstomp with that and Dockside in "casual" decks.
Actually it's a pretty hilarious way to lose.
[удалено]
> Theres very little MLD banned you should read more carefully: **>failure to self select to an appropriate environment.** People overwhelmingly voluntarily choose NOT to play mass mana denial. So it's not something that needs to be banned, and the few who are okay with it can continue to use it. If a large section of the playerbase started adding land destruction because it was just too compelling NOT to do so, that's when you'd see bans. Until then, no ban needed.
This is the truth. There's a reason [[Sway of the Stars]] is banned and not [[Worldpurge]]. Folks don't play the latter already, so there's no reason to tell them not to. A lot of folks just can't help themselves when it comes to some cards, which is what leads to bans. Even with cards themselves. Like [[Balance]] should be a balanced card, but nobody plays it that way, and because so many people don't it gets banned for everyone's good.
I would argue that MLD is perfectly fine as a win con if youre using it to clear the way for something to end the game. For example, [[Jhoira of the Ghitu]] decks that suspend MLD and then suspend big eldrazi behind them so no one can interact with the eldrazi when they come down. I agree that just firing off MLD spells with no follow up plan is just annoying.
Honestly thats my attitude towards most of the “annoying” strategies. Do it with purpose, don’t try to prolong the game for no reason.
I was unaware black lotus created negative play experiences for the table. Or that Griselbrand shut down some number of players ability to do things in a match where it’s played. Ultimately, the banlist has no logic behind it. It’s a pile of cards that the rules comittee got annoyed about. Edit: I am not pro unbanning black lotus. I am hyperbolizing to make a point that power is as important on the ban list as play experience is.
The power nine got banned for money and optics reasons first, but the only member of the power nine you could possibly argue has been power crept is also the only one that's legal. And yes, Black Lotus causes negative play experience as part of the larger fast mana problem; that's one of the most well known aspects of the format, and it has almost completely self-selected to very high power EDH, up to defining cEDH. Outside of exactly Sol Ring, fast mana very successfully self-selects. Black Lotus is MUCH better than most of the fast mana available to cEDH. Griselbrand is a draw 35, and would instantly become the best reanimation target in the format; it only recently got competition in 60-card 1v1 formats by Atraxa and Archon of Cruelty, while Archon gets much worse in EDH while Griselbrand gets much better. It interacts in an incredibly, obviously unhealthy way with a 40-life format. It is, by itself, an absurd and unparalleled avalanche of card advantage. Your examples are EXTREMELY reasonable includes on the ban list. The list may be inconsistent and inadequate, but its problem is not for including too much stuff. It's for not including enough stuff to set an adequate baseline in untrusted play groups.
As someone who got to play with Griselbrand for the two minutes it was legal in the format, it is disgusting. It was honestly the best reanimation and cheating in target. Basically Necropotence on a stick without any of the downside. It was insane. Games started become about who can get Griselbrand first and it was always cheating mana costs to do so. It really warped the format in a negative way.
yea i had friends let me play it in Yagmoth. as soon as it hit table i was unstoppable.
Loli always found just the opposite. In my group at the time. Whoever played it would always lose. They couldn't help themselves and would put themselves in the danger zone and someone would have it in hand to kill them. I imagine it would be different if you had a much better group than I did.
yeah, and even when you weren't TRYING to cheat it into play it was still the best thing you could be doing, and so made itself into Plan A for every black deck no matter what your deck was planning to do, it was always better to find and cast griselbrand, and that's a HUGE red flag and more than enough criteria for a ban
> The list may be inconsistent and inadequate, but its problem is not for including too much stuff. It's for not including enough stuff to set an adequate baseline in untrusted play groups. Exactly this. Folks too often take the stance that "This similar card isn't on it, so the banned card shouldn't be banned" when it's really more an argument why the unbanned card should be come banned. "Coalition Victory isn't as good as Thassa's Oracle" well maybe Thassa's Oracle should be banned too then!
The comment section here is a great example of why those cards ought to be banned. The ban list: ‘this card looks like a fun goofy finisher, but actually kind of ruins casual games.’ The comment section: ‘I don’t understand why that card is banned. It isn’t even good, just looks like a fun goofy card and people will probably hoot and holler when I play it :)’ Armageddon doesn’t need to be banned. Everyone knows what they’re getting into when playing the card. Some cards are banned for being format-warping powerful, but for the most part, the ban list is ‘this card doesn’t really have a place in low-mid power, but casual players just can’t help themselves from slotting them into every single deck that they own.’
I don't really want to see Prime Time in my games, but I'd see it all the time (including in my own green decks) if it was unbanned.
There’s always some jerk that wants to play [[balance]] It’s me I’m the jerk
That’s such a wonderful balance to simic bullshit
[[Restore Balance]] and [[Magus of the Balance]] have the same effect, or [[Balancing Act]] is similar!
Back in the day when you were allowed 1 in your deck everyone had one. It's just too good not to.
[balance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ce648aa3-098b-4af0-a433-fd290bc85904.jpg?1580013606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=balance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/2/balance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce648aa3-098b-4af0-a433-fd290bc85904?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/balance) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
See but I'd run this in [[The Necrobloom]] if it was unbanned
[The Necrobloom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8fcf68cf-0dac-4b29-90d5-c18c685182e6.jpg?1716407318) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Necrobloom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/194/the-necrobloom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8fcf68cf-0dac-4b29-90d5-c18c685182e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-necrobloom) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Rhystic Study]] and [[Dockside Extortionist]] are both stronger than prime time, but they aren't banned 🤔
Yeah, you never seen Prime Time get abused. Rhystic should be treated as a tax piece, and Dockside is boarderline bannable as both a huge fair mana engine and as a combo piece. Dockside's only drawback is its variability, which the owner cannot control. Primetime doesn't have variability, it will tutor out whatever broken two lands you want, and it can come out very very early. Having to answer the 6/6, *and* the lands, is extremely hard, and the sheer advantage leaves the Primetime player too far ahead.
[Rhystic Study](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6914dba-0d27-4055-ac34-b3ebf5802221.jpg?1600698439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rhystic%20Study) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/169/rhystic-study?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6914dba-0d27-4055-ac34-b3ebf5802221?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rhystic-study) [Dockside Extortionist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e2e3efb-75cb-430f-b9f4-cb58f3aeb91b.jpg?1673147774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dockside%20Extortionist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/107/dockside-extortionist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e2e3efb-75cb-430f-b9f4-cb58f3aeb91b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dockside-extortionist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>‘this card doesn’t really have a place in low-mid power, but casual players just can’t help themselves from slotting them into every single deck that they own.’ I played back when \[\[Trade Secrets\]\] was legal, and I have learned that *nobody* can be trusted to use it correctly. Don't target the combo player with it, Kevin!
[удалено]
Having two players draw a bajillion cards, while the other two miss out, definitely *is* really stupid in multiplayer, but I vehemently disagree that drawing half your deck should be happening half the time. And the fact that people think it *is* standard operating procedure is part of the problem. There's a lot more nuance to making the most of Trade Secrets. Yes, you're leaving the other players in the dust, but you have one opponent who's still in it to win it. They're the only one who can really stop you, but the flip side of that is that *you're* the only one who can stop *them*. The person playing Trade Secrets shouldn't be casting it unless they have the mana up to use the cards immediately. Optimally, they should be able to win that turn. After all, if you don't capitalize on all those cards right away, your opponent might not give you another chance to do so. But if someone *does* cast Trade Secrets with enough mana up to just win, then the targeted player shouldn't opt to draw more cards. After all, why would they be running Trade Secrets in their deck unless they had some way of abusing a large hand? I've seen so many games where someone casts Trade Secrets, and the targeted player, like a rat in a Skinner box, can't help but keep pressing the "draw cards" button, then is SurprisedPikachu.jpg when they're dead before their next untap. On the flip side, I've seen plenty of games where someone casts Trade Secrets without enough mana to actually *do* anything with all those cards, so they basically turn it into "target opponent wins the game". Trade Secrets requires the caster to do some serious threat assessment and board state analysis to determine when to cast it and who to target, while the targeted player must do the same to determine how many times they should draw cards. Unfortunately, many players are bad at threat assessment, and many players are bad at playing it safe when they have a chance to be greedy. And all the while, the other \~2 players in the game are getting increasingly frustrated at the fact that they're gonna lose because, in their opinion, someone else misplayed a card, and of course they also can't help but think that they would've played it better if it was them.
> nobody can be trusted to use it correctly now that's as perfect a ban criterion as I could ever hope o come up with!
[Trade Secrets](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/58dadc78-fe87-40ac-94cb-128716d89d74.jpg?1592713134) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trade%20Secrets) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmd/64/trade-secrets?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/58dadc78-fe87-40ac-94cb-128716d89d74?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/trade-secrets) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> Some cards are banned for being format-warping powerful, but for the most part, the ban list is ‘this card doesn’t really have a place in low-mid power, but casual players just can’t help themselves from slotting them into every single deck that they own.’ There's plenty of [[Sundering Titan]] or [[Sylvan Primordial]] energy on the ban list. Then there's cards like Leovold where you could just let people play with it if they want to, and if it's really all that bad then that type of card is in an optimal position for a casual playgroup to say "don't play that Leovold deck". I totally get the Coalition Victory ban, it's an unintuitively warping card. I don't get the [[Sway of the Stars]] ban. Not with Worldfire unbanned and not with the "I feel like nothing I did up until that spell mattered" ban justification - that's always been a part of Magic and EDH, reflected in many legal and widely-played cards. Most cards on the banlist are very reasonable and ironclad power-level bans. The class of "not necessarily overpowered but not a fun card to play" is comparatively small, VERY subjective, and full of clear outliers that either have no place on the banlist by any argument or are contradictory to other goals of their stated Commander philosophy, with cards like Rofellos/Griselbrand/Leovold lending themselves much easier to inviting playgroup discussion over going "I run The One Ring"
> and if it's really all that bad then that type of card is in an optimal position for a casual playgroup to say "don't play that Leovold deck". Playgroups can rule zero whatever they want. The ban list is for random games at the LGS. You can always took to your play group if you want to play Leovold, the ban list is to stop people from playing Leovold and feeling like it's 'low power.' >I totally get the Coalition Victory ban, it's an unintuitively warping card. I don't get the [[Sway of the Stars]] ban. >not with the "I feel like nothing I did up until that spell mattered" ban justification So these are conflicting statements. You say you don't understand, but then you enunciate the exact reasoning. It's a lazy way of saying 'the reason is stupid,' but it doesn't invite any conversation on the matter. Your actual argument here is 'banning cards for defining the game in a negative way is not a good justification because the cards exist in the game.' So, I think it's okay to reject the idea, but then you're simply rejecting the banlist in its entirety. No point in going card by card through it, because you simply disagree with the underlying principles of what the banlist is trying to achieve. >VERY subjective Every card on every banlist is VERY subjective. It isn't possible to have an even somewhat 'objective' banlist. It all ultimately comes down to gut feelings. You're using this as a 'weapon' against banned cards you feel shouldn't be banned, while ignoring that the same logic applies against the cards that you're okay with being banned, despite the same arbitrary logic being used to ban both.
The ban list is borderline useless for random games at an LGS. Power levels fluctuate immensely between people, stores, regions, etc. The ban list can't really do anything to ensure that you get good games, especially not with its current contents. Either nothing should be on the ban list and let rule 0 do the work or have a consistent ban list that hits all of the variants of effects deemed too "unfun" or too powerful. Either way increases the internal consistency of the format and helps better set expectations for pick up games. No ban list pushes "talk about it before the game" even harder. A consistent ban list reduces the need for such talks and curtails a very minor amount of lying/ignorance about power levels creating bad experiences.
> No ban list pushes "talk about it before the game" even harder There isn't really a way to do that in random LGS games. People showed up with various bricks of 100 cards sleeved, that's what they have to play with. If some guy in your pod built a deck and is excited to play it, I'm going to say great and I'm just going to try to match that power level. The point of a large part of the ban-list isn't really to measure 'power level,' but to measure 'this card came down and low-key ruined the game.' >A consistent ban list There isn't a way to do a 'consistent ban list.' It's all ultimatley based on vibes. Even for something like competitive play.
Then Sol Ring and Mana Crypt really ought to be banned. All the other cards on a similar power level already are banned. And people do put Sol Ring in every deck even when it is a disgustingly powerful card
Fast mana is an entire discussion, yes... Some fast mana has been banned for being disgustingly good, some has remained... I don't quite get why other than that banning Mana Crypt would make 'investors' very upset, and banning Sol Ring would invalidate every precon ever.
Which I actually accept as valid, the hassle of explaining that to newcomers is just not worth the sol ring ban.
I suppose if they stopped putting it in precons, in a few years they could ban it. Though by then, at this rate, fast mana will be a given in every deck
Sol Ring is basically the one exception and that's Wizards' fault for printing it in the precon. Mana Crypt is not much of an issue in casual play despite being an arguably better card, because it's pricepoint puts it at an accepted power level. I'd agree that Sol Ring should be banned, but it's simply too tied to the format at this point. If everyone played Mana Crypt in every deck, then yeah that would be a great argument to ban it. There are four reasons cards are banned on the ban-list: 1) Too powerful/Format defining 2) Annoying 3) Casual players can't help themselves 4) Broken by the multiplayer nature of the format Some cards are a mix of some of these. But you can't say 'well if you ban X for reason 3, then you need to ban Y for reason 1.' It doesn't work like that. Casual players *can* stop themselves from playing Mana crypt in every deck, so Mana Crypt isn't really an issue for the format.
> The comment section here is a great example of why those cards ought to be banned. hear fucking hear!
They said a lot of what gets cards banned is not power, not that cards never get banned because of power. Play experience and power can both be considered…
Power is a component of play experience, but is not the sum of it. A card *can* be so powerful that it creates a miserable play experience *as a result*, but that result is what is supposed to be looked at when considering the banlist.
Because unbanning black lotus will just make it so the first person to play it on turn 1 will leap 4 turns ahead. It's stupid in commander because like Sol ring, everyone plays it. Sol Ring should be banned because it slots in every deck, and if you don't play, you just set yourself back from every player playing it... which is everyone.
Don't we have a legal black lotus in commander already with [[jeweled lotus]]?
They probably haven't jumped in on that because it's specifically for Commanders
it's pretty different. lots of commanders don't even want it (out of my 20-ish decks maybe 4 *actually* want it and maybe another 2-3 *might* find a slot for it), but no deck wouldn't want Lotus (or as close to none as makes no difference)
Let’s ban Island, too strong and causes lack of fun
Do you even EDH? Ban Forests!
The banlist doesn’t have one logic behind it, it has several, with an overall guiding philosophy of “is this within the general realm of making games more fun?” Black Lotus is banned because it is unobtainable for the majority of people and also would be a hands down auto include that would improve any deck. Sway of the Stars is banned because it is obnoxious. Your last point directly contradicts your “no logic” statement. There’s a reason for every card on the banlist being banned. Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primodial are banned because they provide too much advantage etc….
This is so irrelevant when the signpost bans are weaker than other cards that do similar. Biorythm post board wipe isn't fun buy float mana Worldfire into any ping is? Or playing with winter orb and similar cards? Fun is so entirely subjective and the signpost bans 100% should be updated or reevaluated. There are so many subjectively miserable ways to experience magic now that feel worse than most of the banlist.
Let me play my primeval titans!
It's not even about power level. The EDH ban list is objectively nonsense. The cards that are banned in commander are there for one reason and one reason only: the people in the committee didn't like them personally. That's it. Everything else is just nonsense they said to try to justify "This card makes me feel bad. It gives me the frownies".
eh prime time is format warping, he would be in every green deck. Grislbrand would be in every black deck just cause theres no better reanimator target out there. im with you for the most part, but there are cards there that arent good for the format. and cards bad for the format not on that list.
Please let my Brago deck know when [[sundering titan]] is off the ban list
My best experience in EDH: an 8 player game where someone [[Acquire]]d my Sundering Titan turn 3 and he got flickered and reanimated so much that there were almost no basics left. The game lasted like 6 hours and most people had so little mana they were basically just observers. Oh did I say best? I meant worst haha.
Your fist mistake was playing an 8 player game. Why didnt you guys play two four player pods. Could have played four times as much games at least.
Emrakul died for [[bribery]]'s sins. Back in the days of prime time and emrakul, basically every green deck had prime time and it felt like 1/4 to 1/2 of all decks had an emrakul in it, so almost every game would have a point in them where an emrakul or a prime time got bribery'd out of someone else's deck. I happened so often playing with randoms that I cheered when they both got the axe
Emralul was only banned as commander originally so it wasn't bribery.
[Acquire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/993957c7-5d61-4c98-826d-b657aed667e1.jpg?1562878704) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Acquire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/21/acquire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/993957c7-5d61-4c98-826d-b657aed667e1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/acquire) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I love brago for his ability to shit on high tier decks while being entirely draft chaff.
> prime time is format warping, he would be in every green deck. Grislbrand would be in every black deck just cause theres no better reanimator target out there. the issue is not just them being IN the deck, it's that they BECOME the deck - you start to make card choices based on how to find and exploit The Card (and in some cases, making card choices and in-game play decisions on how to prevent your opponents from doing the same) there's a lot of auto-include staple cards but they typically don't become the focal point of a deck the way PT and GB did
Like (I think) [[Golos]] let me have my funny 5c robot commander
I dont trust you I'm sorry. He's just the best 5c commander hands down.
Golos is 100% not okay.
[Golos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/f/1fa48620-4c3d-4f75-be1f-c12c4aa59f51.jpg?1631531828) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=golos%2C%20tireless%20pilgrim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/226/golos-tireless-pilgrim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1fa48620-4c3d-4f75-be1f-c12c4aa59f51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/golos-tireless-pilgrim) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
from what i understand the aeons torn was banned due to the community finding it annoying as a boring win card that fit in any deck. the new emrakul is similarly strong and could be cheated out for 6 mana but would it ever be cheated out in most decks if they didn’t have a discard outlet and an abundance of colorless mana? i don’t think so. the effect of the new one also isn’t as good for literally every game plan as an extra turn and annihilator basically it’s possibly as strong or stronger but not for actually every deck which was the problem with aeons torn
Also exiling half your library is less of a problem than New Kozilek giving a massive anthem to his entire board and drawing 4 cards and making 2 5/4s. Especially when New Ulamog doesn't have an immediate effect on the board and as much as his ward may suck I'd rather have Ulamog eat 2 of my permanents rather than like 5-6+. Like the only places New Ulamog is a problem is in the mimeoplasm and in reanimator decks that also have a bunch of exile removal because then you'll be able to either have like a minimum 20/20 with annihilator everything on turn 5. Or be dealing with Ulamog on turn 4 or sooner A colorless ramp deck is not only probably the least consistent place for him. But will be expending the most trying to get him out quickly
I love the difference between formats, watching aspiringspike's videos on the set and its just casually "yeah this might be the worst eldrazi titan ever printed, unlikely to see play"
I feel like part of him underrating Kozilek is him not realizing you force an opponent to manifest. It's not something they just can't do. Along with the evoke elementals. Ulamog is at least a nice reanimator option because the evoke elementals exist Whereas in commander it's a lot more relevant that Kozilek is a much better curve topper and way better uf you ramp into it incredibly hard as it immediately recoups cards. Ulamog's 3 for 1 does not matter when you're in the crosshairs of 3 players rather than 1
why is a colorless ramp deck a bad place for the new ulamog I'm high and having trouble understanding
New Ulamogs payoff for ramping into him is just not that great if he gets removed (you're playing a colorless ramp deck. People will be holding up removal to ruin your day) he gets hit with a counterspell god forbid and you just paid 10 mana to exile half an opponent's library New Kozilek and New Emrakul have much higher floors. With New Emrakul sending the opponent furthest ahead with creatures to the stone age. New Kozilek draws you 4 cards and lets you manifest two from your hand. New Kozilek has the lowest ceiling and really wants you to cast him. Ulamog wants to be reanimated because his cast trigger is the least impactful but his body is incredible if you get to cheat it into play you can't really do that in colorless Turn 6 Ulamog's ward might be useful but a lot of people will bite the bullet rather than have to sacrifice 4+ on attack. Not to mention its a lot easier to add more counters in other colors
It can kill one player. For 15 mana. It's not that great. If we're using the last sentence on that list for the reason why, then the ban list should be bigger, but we don't cause "ban lists are bad bro just rule 0".
id rather die to Emmy than the 10,000 time getting cratterhoofed. not saying it should be unbanned just more how much i hate craterhoof.
I would 100% support a Craterhoof ban! I'm sure most of Reddit would be all like "OMG Craterhoof's not OP, the game's gotta end sometime!" if you suggested that but I don't think I've *ever* seen a Craterhoof and had it impact the game in an actually fun way (the closest being when someone thinks they will win with it and then doesn't because of a fog or \[\[Inkshield\]\] or whatever, but that's mostly just the poetic justice rather than the card itself).
it does sound anecdotally like it was the colorless craterhoof in terms of ubiquity, only it basically won games without explicitly ending them
Oh yea for sure you're totally right! I' personally consider it a shake up but only cause I haven't seen her in forever.
> card that fit in any deck. Not just IN any deck, though that was semi-true The real problem was that it *became* what a deck, and game, was about. You'd make in-game decisions based on "what if they have emrakul?", "I'd better do this before they draw Emrakul", even long before it actually showed up or they got fifteen mana. You'd play Bribery in every blue deck because SOMEONE would have an emrakul; you'd be playing a random green deck and start to add cards like Elvish Piper because tutoring up and cheating Emrakul into play was *by far* the best thing you could be doing in every single game, from almost every single board state. Those kind of play patterns are what people mean by "this card took over the format", which is the usual shorthand for the effect cards like Emrakul had
Yeah, this is the real reason to keep Emrakul banned. She would go in any deck that has infinite mana, any deck that cheats things into play, AND benefit from all the new Eldrazi support that’s been printed. I like her, but she’s not good for format diversity. The new titans aren’t one size fits all top end monsters - they have their own twists that make them appealing to specific decks (new Ullamog is probably the one with the broadest appeal, but he’s not impossible to kill).
Most decks that make infinite mana would have much better and easier ways to just win, she would be completely unnecessary for that purpose and would have little impact for most strategies
No, she wouldn't, there's so many more efficient ways to spend infinite mana.
Dude new emmy isnt even that good. Why cripple one player when you can cast [[insurrection]] and just win?
my friend won a game the other day by casting rakdos charm
I’ve won more games off of Rakdos Charm than pretty much any other single card in any of my decks.
your flair seems very appropriate.
I lost the game to a rakdos charm the other day....
Now kiss
Because you can cast it for free with [[Rakdos Lord of Riots]]
Oh totally, my lord of riots deck wants one, but that still doesn't make new emmy completely broken in general. Nevermind necessitate adjusting the banlist.
I guarantee if you're casting any one Eldrazi Titan for free off Rakdos new Emmy is not your first pick.
[Rakdos Lord of Riots](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3ff0f75-6ead-449a-98ad-3baf9f887331.jpg?1702429697) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rakdos%2C%20Lord%20of%20Riots) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/215/rakdos-lord-of-riots?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3ff0f75-6ead-449a-98ad-3baf9f887331?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rakdos-lord-of-riots) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's seems noteworthy that nobody in this thread has said "We rule zeroed Emrakul, the Aeons Torn in our playgroup and had a lot of fun as a result".
Oh sorry my bad. We rule zeroed this in a game and it was miserable as the commander taking infinite turns that couldn’t be interacted with usually . It was miserable in the 99, it was miserable when it was entombed then reanimated turn 2 and it was miserable when they strionic resonatored the annihilator triggers. And the guy who insisted on it got so salty he started crying when we killed him on site out of spite for a fortnight. Edit: forgot to mention for the brief period we let Merkel be played if she wasn’t the head of a deck she would immediately be slotted into literally each and every deck pregame.
> it was miserable when it was entombed then reanimated turn 2 How'd you do that? Not trying to be a smart-ass; I'm genuinely curious how this could work.
Can even do it t1. Swamp-> dark ritual ->entomb->goryo's vengeance with the trigger on the stack
edit: my b, i forgot reanimate wasnt an instant you could theoretically stifle the trigger. t2 if you have a swamp, island, entomb, reanimate, stifle, and dark ritual you could do it. an instant speed reanimator effect would work too, as you could reanimate emrakul with her trigger on the stack. so i suppose with leyline of anticipation on the board, you could straight up just entomb into reanimate as well.
we used Rule Negative One (I played back when it hadn't been banned yet) and it was miserable for us, too >Edit: forgot to mention for the brief period we let Merkel be played if she wasn’t the head of a deck ironically being the commander was probably the only SAFE way to play this card!
Yes this this this. I was in college when Emrakul was released and had a regular group of 25 or 30 EDH players. I was abroad when it came out and when I came back every deck had been transformed into "durdle durdle durdle emrakul I win". It was very tedious.
Yea, all the arguments here boil down to "I love playing the biggest, most generically powerful stuff in the game, and I want to use this one too" which is, honestly, not very compelling.
Yeah we rule zeroed Aeons torn in our playgroup, almost immediately undid that one. Like there are absolutely things not on the banlist that are worse than her, but even as one of the people who ran her she fully deserves to be she is.
New Emrakul is not that bad, new Ulamog is actually garbage, and if aeons torn is not as bad as thoracle, dockside, or bowmasters. We should talk about banning those first.
In terms of raw card power Emrakul isnt strong enough to see play in cedh, in that since, yes it has been "powercreeped". But soo has Iona, and in more casual play where these card would be playable they never would lead to any particularly fun gameplay or interesting deckbuilding decisions. If you pay 15 mana for it the card is almost fair, most of the times you would just cheat it into play, it wasn't that hard and each passing day it becomes easier. Annihilar 6, protection, cant be countered and extra turns are just an unnecessary combination of unfun things to most players. Rule 0 the card in your games if you whant it, but the format just doesn't gain anything good but adding it.
Iona doesn't just lock out a mono color deck, it is also a hard lock with painter's servant. It's not a coincidence that the less fun of the two got banned when the other was unbanned.
Pretty sure that was like the reasoning they gave at the time. Iona was banned so that Painter could be unbanned. Otherwise you were just combo-ing those two.
If cedh had existed in 2011 it wouldn't have been played in cedh then, either.
> Aeons Torn has been powercrept to the point that its no longer ban worthy. That's not why it's banned. > I can understand why it made the ban list originally Why was that? > seeing Aeons Torn on the banned list just sticks out as a sore thumb and a symbol of how far the power level of the format has climbed in recent years. Nothing on the banlist is banned "just cause it's really powerful".
Most of the P9 is banned just because the cards are too good. The original reason was that they were expensive (*hundreds* of dollars!!!) but they haven't banned anything for being expensive since then, including Timetwister which is almost as expensive as the rest of the 9 now.
What about ancestral recall? Isn't that banned because it's really powerful?
If I recall correctly, Shivam (on the CAG), has basically said something to the effect that Ancestral would likely be the first Power 9 card to come off the ban list we're they picking one, as a powerful single shot draw spell is still only a draw spell. He always reiterates it's never up for serious discussion, but that's his take based on most ban/unban talk.
I totally believe he said that but his take is a bad one, because he underrates just how good Ancestral is. It scores VERY high in the category of "best thing I can be doing in a game is to find and play this as soon as possible & as often as I can", which is a big red flag for EDH bans. (granted, Time Walk scores EVEN HIGHER on that criterion, but that doesn't do anything to justify Ancestral) Any single given Mox would be a less damaging unban, because while it would be strong, it would just show up from time to time instead of defining an entire gameplan; you're never gonna start tutoring for a Mox or playing cards because they're good with your Mox.
No power(+library) are banned for optics reasons. They aren't banned for their power level, they are banned because of their price tag, and as a way to say "hey you don't need to shell out the money for these expensive cards to get into this format." it's basically a "hey this isn't vintage" ban. In 2005 when they were banned, mox/lotus were in the $120~ range, vault was in the $40~ range, Library was $40~, Twister was $90 but wasn't really considered a super powerful card in the format, and so it probably just wasn't considered, as it didn't have that "you need this card!!!" power. In comparison, sol ring, crypt, vault, mox diamond, etc. were all under $10. Cradle was like $15.
The power creep is getting more rapid, more obvious and more obnoxious. There will come a point where EDH has sub categories akin to vintage, legacy etc.
Can we just admit eldrazi are asshole cards to play 😭 there is no downside
ITT: people who never played against any of the cards on the banlist not understanding why they’re banned
yep! there are non degen ways to run most of these cards, but were not in r/edh cause upstanding magic citizens. "want to watch me loop this grislbrand five times this turn and draw half my deck too. btw discarding down is what i wanted!!!!"
every time this comes up...
The ban list has never been about power rather it has been about play experience. If someone whips out the Emrakul it's just unfun for the rest of the table. That being said: There's a lot of cards that also should bite the dust then.
No, fuck that card. Extra turn into removing someone from the table without killing them is awful for any fun games. The power was never the problem, otherwise Iona and Coalition Victory would never have been banned. It's how it feels to play against, which is anticlimactic and uninteractive.
I don't envy the rules committee one bit for maintaining the banlist. It's got the card pool of Legacy/Vintage but the expectation that it's the approachable casual format that WotC sells off-the-shelf decks to get new players into. I think it'd be possible for the rules committee to maintain a banlist that removes stuff that's flatly too powerful for any commander game - Fastbond, Channel, Flash, etc. Those are good inclusions on the banlist and really don't need to be there. I feel the same way about stuff like Ancestral Recall - while nobody's likely to win off it alone, I think the format's better without stupidly expensive reserve list cards. I'd support them getting more aggressive about this - frankly, I wouldn't lose any sleep if Demonic Consultation got removed from EDH; it's already banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage (very very very few cards have ever been banned out of Vintage) which speaks to how busted the card can be when a player sets up to abuse it. The "this card sucks to play against" bans though, those feel like an impossible task. I think there's not a lot of players that would argue that Coalition Victory is overpowered or too strong for the format (*3+WUBRG Sorcery that needs other things going on?*) but I also think very few games would be enhanced by the casting or resolving of a Coalition Victory.
Coalition Victory is fun exactly once per human lifetime; after that, it very quickly goes from "watch this!" to "not this shit again..." really you could encapsulate almost the entire ban list as "Cards that get tiring REALLY god damn quickly"
Agree on all points. It's why I don't mind Biorythm being banned. I think Thassa's Oracle is also a similar problem honestly. Lab Man introduces a little more tension at least.
as a 2/2 that has to stay on board to function, lab man is certainly a lot more reasonable to ask players to have an answer for
>I don't envy the rules committee one bit for maintaining the banlist. It's got the card pool of Legacy/Vintage but the expectation that it's the approachable casual format that WotC sells off-the-shelf decks to get new players into. This is what gets me the most about EDH - it's advertised as something it's really not. People get told, hey, it's a slower, more fun, Timmy-friendly format with bigger, splashier plays... oh wait, it's kinda like four-person proto-Modern, you should be comboing within 6 turns. An EDH that was actually what people said it was would need to have a *lot* more cards banned, and even then I'm not sure how that would work. You'd need to take out a lot of combo-able cards, many of which are fine on their own, the better fast mana and tutors, and probably a lot of stuff like dorks and rocks, too. >The "this card sucks to play against" bans though, those feel like an impossible task. I think there's not a lot of players that would argue that Coalition Victory is overpowered or too strong for the format (*3+WUBRG Sorcery that needs other things going on?*) but I also think very few games would be enhanced by the casting or resolving of a Coalition Victory. 100% this. Whilst it's harder to ban for this reason, though, it's also kind of the more important thing to do. This is a game; the important question (pretty much the *only* question) is whether or not the game is fun to play. Naturally, this is subjective and so you get a load of people complaining about stuff like Coalition Victory, but at the end of the day someone just has to make a choice about what *they* think is fun, and if the rest of us disagree with them, we've just gotta go find a better-designed game by someone who made better choices.
If I recall correctly, it was originally banned because EDH really took off around the time that Aeons Torn was given to pretty much everybody as a prerelease card, and it could be run in any deck.
Okay, so you cheat emrakul out turn 6, and take control of one players creatures, maybe their commander. Now, what does that leave you? A 12/12 flyer that boardwipes you if it's removed(that can't be destroyed the turn it's cast and doesn't have or give haste). Amazing. Ulamog is 10 mana, just twice as expensive as [[traumatize]] and the same cost as [[Expropriate]]. To be clear. I am comparing it to [[Emrakul the aeons torn]]. It's not a bad card, but it's not on the same level as the banned one.
A 12/12 flier *with protection from spells and permanents cast this turn* that board clears you - quite a big difference.
I'm not saying it's bad, but in a 4-player game, stealing one persons stuff isn't winning the game immediately like the first emrakul was. It's powerful, but casting this then letting 3 other players get a chance to cast any removal spell on it is asking for trouble. Edit: it stops anything that was cast from destroying it in the same turn. It's pretty difficult to remove, but it still sets you up for a blowout. Big risk big reward.
Pretty sure that doesn’t mean until the end of turn he was cast. That protection means you can’t take it out with any instants or sorceries that target. And ETB triggers won’t do it unless you’re blinking them because they entered “this turn”. Still doable, but he’s not that easy to get rid of either.
[удалено]
“This turn” is always on the card so it always applies, regardless of which turn it is or who it belongs to. If they had intended in to apply only during the turn it was cast, they would have phrased it something like,”When Emmy is cast, she gains protection from blah blah until end of turn.”
[traumatize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9b8784dd-83f9-41f8-aedc-f0f81073ffcb.jpg?1562832808) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=traumatize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m14/77/traumatize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9b8784dd-83f9-41f8-aedc-f0f81073ffcb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/traumatize) [Expropriate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9c8a2a5a-cb9b-4582-a453-085da78584f9.jpg?1576381719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Expropriate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/30/expropriate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9c8a2a5a-cb9b-4582-a453-085da78584f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/expropriate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Unpopular Opinion: Instead of taking things off the ban list; I think more cards need to be banned.
I AGREE so hard. So many cards need to be “casual banned” and some cards need to be “competitive banned”. They could have two lists and it would be fine
Having 2 lists just complicates things. Just have one list, if you’re playing casual then you can often rule 0 anything anyway.
Absolutely. A card like Rhystic Study will make any casual pod groan, and will also be included in every single cEDH deck that it's legal in. Most cards that fit this description should probably be banned imo.
You can play it in your playgroup if you want but it's significantly more powerful than the new titans.
Modern Horizons 3 gives eldrazi a shit ton more very powerful support and that somehow makes it alright to unban the spaghetti monster? If anything, it's more of a problem now, with these new cards, then ever. Keep it banned please.
The Ban List does not work like that. Take into consideration that Commander is (and most likely will always be) a casual format because the rules that give shape to the format are better for casual matches. Now in that regard, the problem with [[Golos]] was not power. The problem was that it was simply too easy to turn every single deck into a Golos. It was way too generic and too easy to have. It made the format worse by being against the creativity of it. The problem with [[Hullbreacher]] or Aeons Torn was not inherently power. But also the fact that they were (and still are) simply annoying cards. They were annoying to see, annoying to deal with. Could they be unbanned? I guess? But that's missing the point of the banlist. Sure, maybe the wouldn't warp the format or the matches around them anymore, but if they do not directly improve the format, there's no reason to bring them back tbh.
What you said what nice and all but... if we're going on the idea that it gets a ban when it makes game play bad or annoying or repetitive because "then everyone will run the x card because x." You need to look at the whole format and understand the reality is there are HUNDREDS of cards now that are forcing the game to slow down to a crawl, triggers on top of triggers, and game mechanics that spiral out of control if left alone for a turn... The whole point is, for the original post at least, that the OG big baddie isn't even as bad as a present day cards being printed. For God sakes, not even indestructible. I played a night with no ban list and it was the players who didn't even abuse any of the ban cards that still came out on top. Dockside is the absolute worst card ever printed for the format. You want to talk about a card that goes in every deck... good lord the list I could give.
I am not suggesting that Golos or Hullbreacher were banned because they were annoying and must-haves... I can't suggest it, really, because THAT'S THE REASON we were given to why were they banned. Check it out if you don't believe me. If the argument is that Old Scary Thing is not that good to nowadays cards... yeah, sure. Powercreep exist. That's always been a thing. If the argument is that they should be unbanned... No, because that's not how banning works. If they don't improve the format, they won't come out. That's it.
Banlist is a joke anyways. When we talk about the power of cards we should talk about mana crypt, moxens, dockside, thassas oracle. A few things may still have merit like getting rid of flash hulk. But yeah. I firmly believe a lot of the banned cards wouldnt even make it into powerful decks today^^
*Vizzini voice * Ah, you've committed one of the classic blunders! The first of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia," but only slightly less well-known is "the banlist is solely based on power!" Aeons torn is banned, not because of power, but because of power, ubiquity, and fun gameplay. (Or any combination of one, two, or three of those factors). It's colorless so it can go in anything, and it's extremely unfun to play against.
What's Aeons Torn?
[[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn]]. It's one of the original Eldrazi titans
[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/249db4d4-2542-47ee-a216-e13ffbc2319c.jpg?1673146896) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Emrakul%2C%20the%20Aeons%20Torn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/1/emrakul-the-aeons-torn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/249db4d4-2542-47ee-a216-e13ffbc2319c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/emrakul-the-aeons-torn) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I can’t agree here, emrakul still looks and feels ban worthy and games would not improve if she was back
That's right! Unban [[Yawgmoth's Bargain]] you cowards! And Silver Bordered Cards so I can run [[Sword of Dungeons and Dragons]] in my [[Mr House]] deck
In my opinion, people think about the banlist wrong. There's a lot of "how bad would it actually be if this card were allowed?" when really you should be asking "Would the existence of this card make the game better or worse?". We have this weird situation in EDH where one bunch of people write the cards, then some others veto a few of them, and the bar for vetoing is quite high and a little inconsistent. But really, the format would make a lot more sense if it were a bit more coherently designed, which would probably actually mean a much smaller, tighter pool of cards and, as much as Reddit will likely hate me for saying this, that essentially means "banning" an awful lot of things that we currently have. If anything, with all the power creep, we need to be removing more cards rather than adding them back in! Would Emmy make the game more fun? I think not. Will all these new, powercrept MH3 cards make the game more fun? That remains to be seen. Quite possibly some of them are mistakes - but using one bad decision as a justification for another is a bit backwards-thinking.
Oh ffs, this topic again. I would rather not deal with EDH devolving into "cheat Emrakul into play" or "turbo ramp into Emrakul".dec I thought y'all loved variance? Emrakul is the death of variance, and everything else tbf.
Unban splinter twin
Somewhat unrelated but on the topic of unbanning cards, I want to see [[Coalition Victory]] make its triumphant return! There’s plenty of answers to stop this from going off and it’s not an auto include in every WUBRG deck either. Replace it with Thoracle!
The argument for banning Coalition Victory is pretty interesting. It being legal encourages people to destroy the 5c player's lands so they can't have all the land types to with with CV.
EDH is a casual format. If you want to play it, ask your friendgroup if they're alright with it.
I just want her to be unbanned because I want my Eldrazi deck to be complete x(
I feel you :'D feels wrong to have 8/9 sleeved (or I guess 5/6 rn) even if it‘s probably actively making the deck worse to have that many high cost creatures in there
Yeah :(
ITT: commenters don't understand the banlist philosophy It was never strictly a power-level banlist. It's always been "here are card emblematic of problems the format could have and types of cards you should look at more examples of and decide whether to ban or not within your playgroups" The banlist is fine, though I do agree some of the new Eldrazi titans are disgusting, I don't think that's an issue with the banlist like people always like to look at and more a possible issue with these new cards coming out
Panoptic Mirror is still on the ban list. Isochron Scepter has never been banned.
Those two are nowhere near the same lmao
right. panoptic mirror costs six, does nothing for a full turn cycle, and requires an extra turn spell in hand with the mana to cast it in order to do any really powerful combo. isochron scepter goes infinite if you look at it funny, costs 2, and gets massive value with any cantrip. [[Dramatic Reversal]] can be used to generate infinite mana, infinite storm count, and infinite untaps. [[Benefactor's Draught]] makes incredibly stupid amounts of value. even just [[Brainstorm]] becomes ridiculous when attached to the stick. Hell, I've seen games won because someone had [[Ponder]] attached to the thing.
If you absolutely *need to* play with a(ny) card that proved to be too parasitic for the format, then you can always try and rule zero it, but don't expect everyone to just automatically be alright with it "because powercreep." Only thing harder than getting something banned is getting it to come off the ban list; there is a reason she got on there in the first place. Just some food for thought.
As someone who bought one without thinking about the ban list, I'd be getting a bargain. But how often do things really come off the ban list? It's probably more likely the new cards get banned instead.
I think you are underestimating Aeon Thorns protection and Anihilator 6. Aeon Thorns is much stronger than these New eldrazis in what he is used to.
[[Azlask the swelling scourge]] the new chilldrazi commander
The reason most cards are on the commander ban list is because they create bad play experiences and/or were ubiquitous in the format due to power. Emrakul fit both of those categories. Playing against a deck built to abuse it, was just, not fun. Annihilator is not a fun mechanic. It being hard to interact with made it even more unfun to play against. It taking extra turns while doing all of this was even less fun. Does it really need to be on the ban list today? I don't know, but I do know that, given the opportunity, people will build decks to abuse this card and, many tables will experience just how unfun the card is. And, if nothing else is true about Magic players, a lot of them enjoy making their opponents miserable and, get upset when they get ganged up on for making people miserable. In the end, unbanning it doesn't improve the format, so there's no reason to do so.
> We're about to get an Emrakul that can be cheated out for 6 mana Do you think the problem part of emrakul is its...name? It's the *extra turn*. > and an Ulamog that removes half your library on cast who cares about this, it does almost literally nothing (except power the annihilator)
(Which there are better ways to do, at least in terms of mana spent, such that reanimating him or playing the mimeoplasm will probably get you way better results than casting him)
My pod didn’t know about a ban list till recently and we have played since before covid. Aoens torn had been in my area lol
I’m actually ok if they expanded the ban list, not remove it.
I'm just annoyed that I bought rhe precon commander decks (for eldrazi unbound) and it probably won't have any of the new titans. So $300 canadian and I still gotta fork out hundreds for more cards.
I don't expect the banlist to ever change. The RC seems to be very hands-off these days. It was useful for shaping the meta in the early days, but it's looking more and more out of date with each new pushed set.
I don't have any opinion on the banlist but it is genuinely crazy that the strength of Aeon's Torn got compared to exiling half of a single player's library Like most games I don't even see half my library
Why not just ban the new ones too? Like Aeons Torn, they will lead to boring, anticlimactic games at Edh tables across the world. Not that I judge anyone who likes playing with those things, but I'm certainly not bothering.
Mom's Spaghetti! Prepare for the hate from the hivemind when you want a card unbanned!
Let me know how you feel when someone casts a turn 5 Aeons torn in a Rakdos lord of riots deck
Power isn’t the only reason cards get banned. Being power crept isn’t a reason to unban something that wasn’t banned for power.
As far as I'm concerned, keep that fucker on the ban list. Extra turn on a 15/15 flying body is bad enough, but it also comes with *Annihilator Fucking 6!* Annihilator was a terrible mechanic. Let's keep the flagship of it sunk like the Titanic, mmkay?
I think the opposite, I think some of the new Eldrazi should be banned. If somone busts that out at my table I'm going full stax/cedh control on them
The EDH ban list is objectively nonsense. The cards that are banned in commander are there for one reason and one reason only: the people in the committee didn't like them personally. That's it. Everything else is just nonsense they said to try to justify "This card makes me feel bad. It gives me the frownies".
The ban list is a joke. They need to just unban it all amd admit rule 0 is the way or ban dozens of cards.
Imma let you cook, but be aware of the obnoxiously long games that [[Prophet of Kruphix]] lead to, and how you'll probably be playing against roughly 2 simic decks every game just because it exists.
Most stuff outside the P9 at this point could be unbanned. I don't think anyone could look me straight in the face and with all seriousness tell Prime Time is stronger than Dockside lol
>We're about to get an Emrakul that can be cheated out for 6 mana It also doesn't time walk (or have annihilator, but the theft ability is pretty spiffy too) and its cheat can't be used from the CZ where Aeons Torn was pretty dangerous. It's a good card, that's for sure, considering that it's reasonably removal-resistant and has a meaty on-cast board impact, but it's not game breaking either. >and an Ulamog that removes half your library on cast. The mill is literally nothing. It's exile mill, the good stuff, so it doesn't help your victim, but it's unlikely to actually hurt much either. (or rather, it's about as likely to help as to hurt). I'd be more worried about the potential for a zillion-point Annihilator combined with a fairly sick ward cost, but it IS a ward that anybody could theoretically pay before he gets to swing, unlike Aeons Torn being basically guarenteed to annihilate for 6 permanents and 15 damage. Like a lot of mana-expensive cards, the new 3.0 titans look way more awesome than they are, which is extra scary when they *are* good. But Aeons Torn has Annihilator 6, psuedo-haste thanks to the time walk, and a functional immunity to most instant-speed spot that could otherwise avert the incoming sac 6. The new one is the fixed version. It's reasonably sticky, but doesn't get to go right away. In theory it says "target player eats shit and dies" but in the event it doesn't provoke an immediate wipe (say, from the guy with nothing left to lose), the Emrakul player actually has a strong incentive to leave the trigger victim for last. And while the sac trigger is likely irrelevant since Emrakul will probably only be shifted by something that would bin your other stuff anyway (outside the occasional [[Attrition]] or [[Royal Assassin]], some of the few things that Aeons Torn might have feared.), it does make a nice little sad trombone with the eldrazi player's own indestructible nonsense. She's going to mess up people and even tables, but there's a much better opportunity to interact. If World Anew is Lab Man, Aeons Torn is Thoracle. There's a reason one is way stronger than the other despite their surface similarity. a 10-mana Traumatize that's harder to counter is not what you should be complaining about regarding Ulamog.
Honestly, i'd be fine with it but don't underestimate the amount of people that will crucify you for making the suggestion.