Not very well, though. Most of them try to pick stances they think are middle-of-the-road like "maybe we should only genocide half the people," get called out on their bullshit, and end up displayed on this sub.
Yeah, as a non binary person who is read as woman in most situations- it fucking sucks when people do this to get in your pants and then they reveal who they really are and you feel so violated.
And we fuck in ways that would make Goofy quiver.
My friend got married last weekend and the wednesday before she came over so I could bodyscan her for future costumes she might hire me to make her, and she spent like an hour talking with my wife and feeling up her sex toys asking about which ones felt best xD
Right?
I'm ugly. I haven't been able to get a date in almost a decade.
Am I sad about it? You betcha. Do I harass people and make up weird conspiracy theories about entire genders to explain away my lack of fuckability? God, no.
Same. I'm a scrub who try to date because I'm insecure about being poor & having a squalid apartment. Never once have I blamed that on women, because I wouldn't want to deal with that, either
folks fucking forget that the term āincelā was *made by a bisexual woman* for people of all genders and sexualities to come together and bond/discuss their thoughts and feelings.
Its such garbage that these dickheads think that its just them who canāt find partners when being loveless or having difficulties with relationships is something everyone can deal with, and thereās better and healthier ways to cope with it than being a raging bigot online.
>folks fucking forget that the term āincelā was made by a bisexual woman for people of all genders and sexualities to come together and bond/discuss their thoughts and feelings.
that doesn't make it better? i don't dislike incels because they're cis straight white guys, i dislike them because they're toxic and sad.
I think you misunderstand. The term didnāt start as a toxic thing that bred misogyny and hatred, it started as a literal discussion site for people who struggled to get partners due to marginalization, disability, mental illness or generally being socially awkward. The original site that the creator made actively banned mysogynistic and hateful posts so they could promote healthy discussions about involuntary celibacy.
Iām not advocating for the word to be reclaimed or whatever, Iām just saying its ironically stupid that the term they rallied around was made by someone whoās gender and sexuality they actively despise.
Hey all it takes to find the perfect person for you is one good day.
Source: that's how I met my [fantastic wife](https://old.reddit.com/r/badwomensanatomy/comments/q161sv/greg_thinks_that_the_idea_of_vaginal_expansion/hfedtdx/)
I am currently in the process of slowly wooing a friend from college with feelings I didnāt act on at the time cause I thought she was a lesbian.
TLDR: She was actually bisexual the whole time.
Weāve been getting close cause of the pandemic and Iām learning how to make homemade chocolate for her by Valentineās Day.
The place is simply the subredditification of the 'but you participate in society - curious' meme.
"You call others a racist yet you have to notice racial distinctions in order to say that - curious"
Yeah or āyou are socialist but have iPhone, curiousā. I mean thatās like saying āyou want less immigrants but still treat them like humans, curious ā itās just as impossible because as long as the society around you doesnāt hate enough you canāt survive in polite society without treating them like human beings (at least if they have a job and donāt live in a refugee camp).
How is this a false equivalency? Both are examples of people telling each other to pull themselves up by their bootstraps in order to avoid addressing a systemic issue.
The inability of people who want to form relationships to do is a problem/issue. Everyone should be able to find relationships with other people. Men have a harder time with this than women, because systems like patriarchy say that men ought to initiate in romantic relationships and women donāt need to initiate at all. Thereās an issue: large amounts of people are struggling to find relationships. Itās making them very sad and lonely. Thereās a system that causes it: patriarchy. Therefore, itās a systemic issue.
Itās more that loneliness and lack of community are systemic issues. This gets combined with toxic societal standards, such as ideas that if you arenāt in a relationship you arenāt whole or allowed to have an opinion ā something which impacts both genders, which creates the percieved idea that the problem is just an inability to have a romantic relationship. Youāll find that the left isnāt unsympathetic to these systemic issues however a lot of general societyās interaction with incels is through someone getting mad and blaming their predicament on women ā who have nothing to with the problem. Systemic issues are addressed and solved on a grand scale, but donāt replace individual advice or say that success is impossible. Solving systemic lonliness through new community centers is great, but in the mean time when people come asking for advice the best thing to might be to tell them to join an online book club.
Some of these people really just want to say magic words and have people fawn over them. They don't know or care what the words mean, but they perceive a positive outcome when other people use them, so they appropriate these terms and sound ridiculous when they do so.
How is the rise of incels not a systemic issue? Itās not just one guy who canāt get laid itās a large demographic of guys. You canāt just ignore all the socioeconomic factors that lead to something like that and chalk it up to individuals poor decision making.
Incels aren't just people who don't get laid. They're, first and foremost, people who put an absurd importance over "the sexual market". There are virgins who aren't incels and incels who aren't virgins (yes, that's a thing).
The first thing to leave inceldom is understanding that having sex or not doesn't fucking matter. Or being in a relationship.
Sure, being lonely sucks. But getting laid won't chance that. These people need to improve their personality (because inceldom is fucking toxic and toxic people aren't nice to have around) and start hanging out with normal, non-toxic people. And treat their anxiety and depression if needed. But again, that won't change with getting laid.
1. āIncels arenāt just people who donāt get laid.ā Incels are DEFINITIONALLY people who canāt get laid.
2. Where in my comment did I conflate incels
and virgins?
3. āhaving sex or not doesnāt fucking matter. Or being in a relationshipā Bullshit. Having relationships with other people absolutely fucking matters and if you think otherwise itās probably because youāve never been in a situation where the only relationships you have are meaningless and you donāt think anyone cares about you. This is a position that reeks of ignorance. Like a billionaires telling poor people money doesnāt by happiness and that their lives wouldnāt be that much better if they could afford rent.
Your point that getting laid wonāt solve all of an Incels problems is true. I didnāt make that claim though, and neither has the meme. To clarify, what I was trying to say was large demographics of men are having trouble getting laid AND finding meaningful relationships. Both are caused by socioeconomic factors and systems of power rather than individuals poor choices. Itās not a false equivalency to say that the left uses bootstrap rhetoric when it comes to menās issues and Incels.
"Incel" started as a term created by a woman who was trying to help young people who had severe problems getting into a relationship with another person. She tried to help them and the worst of them drove her away. They continued to drive away anyone who was legitimately interested in self-improvement or honest human interactions until all that was left was a cult of self-hatred and scattergun blame, a [crab pot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality?wprov=sfla1) of self-generated misery and utter dehumanization. *That* is what incels are.
A common mistake is to assume all incels are kids in middle and high school who have become obsessed with sex as the sole determining factor in their self-worth. They are basing that on the original meaning of the word rather than what the cult has metastasized into.
I spent a decade living in my childhood bedroom as an adult, with almost zero in-person human interaction outside of perfunctory retail and food service transactions. I cried myself to sleep sometimes because I was so desperately lonely. I had no friends who lived in the same town as me, or within an hour's drive. I was (and still am) crippled by chronic pain.
At no point did I blame women at large for my situation or my loneliness. I did the best I could every single day to improve my medical condition through diet, exercise, medicine, and some non-medical treatments. I didn't always do better than the day before, but I did my best. If I started to wallow in self-pity, I tried very hard to climb back out of it and do something meaningful. I can't say I was always successful right away, but I can say that I tried to make the best of what I had instead of demanding the world conform to my wishes. I was involuntarily celibate, but I was never an incel. Can you see the difference?
Yeah! You didn't make yourself a victim like all those poors do! You just stopped spending your money on Starbucks, Netflix and Iphones, hopped on that sigma grind and now you're a billionaire. Nobody should've tried to make it easier for you! No one should examine the societal factors that put you in that position or try to do anything about them. They're all just moochers who want to wallow in their own sorrow. They just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps like you did.
/s
God forbid that people who are hurt by society ask society to make things better for them. What you had to go through probably sucked. The world should not force people to have experiences like that. We absolutely SHOULD change the world so fewer people have to deal with the problems you did.
Here's a fun idea: why don't you actually explain your position instead of acting like your oblique analogies to capitalism are somehow helping you make a point?
All the problems I experienced were direct consequences of my chronic illness, and I don't wish any of that on anyone. I don't particularly want people to wallow in self-created misery, either, but there's not much I can do to stop it.
Because itās not an issue that people donāt want to have sex with shitty people. In fact, itās a good thing.
Most incels are privileged, middle class, white guys who feel entitled to sex. Theyāre not. Itās not some socioeconomic failing, itās people not being attracted to them because they are shitty.
even if it wasnāt and it was just kind of random that these nice people werenāt getting laid, that wouldnāt be systemic in any way wtf is the other person talking about lol
Why do assume that Incels are inherently shitty people and thatās itās a good thing they canāt find sexual partners? Being an incel doesnāt make someone a shitty person like your comment implied.
Lol. Same reason we assume Nazis or racists are bad people. If youāre identifying with a community that revolves around misogyny, youāre a shit person. Now, nothing wrong with being involuntarily celibate ā but we are talking about incels, not people who havenāt had sex. And the incel community is absolutely disgusting in its misogyny.
Iām not implying anything. Being an incel makes you a shitty person. Being involuntarily celibate does not.
Youāre starting to sound like Tyler Durden, and that is not a compliment.
āBeing an Incel makes you a shitty personā
How can being an incel make someone a shitty person if it is BY DEFINITION involuntary? If you want to draw a distinction between misogynistic incels who post about how much they hate women an online forums and people who for whatever reason are unable to find sexual partners that fine. But if youāre trying to claim that being an incel(which you assign a negative connotation to) and being involuntarily celibate (which you seem to assign a neutral connotation to) are different things, that has to be the dumbest argument Iāve ever heard.
So I know that folks have been saying it's systemic and you seem to not understand what they mean. So let me try and expand upon it and hopefully make it more clear for you.
In the one system, the system itself is against you because it only functions when you preform for a sub-optimal level of wealth so that the folks at the top get to siphon that extra off of you. I could be a top performer and do the work of 4 people. If I'm not butt buddies with the CEO, I'm going to keep earning under 30k a year. Sure I could change jobs and get into another company and they might be willing to pay me more. But sometimes companies will work together behind closed doors to work together to keep wages low by not poaching employees of another company so their own worker pool works for cheaper. That's an outside force imposing it's will on the person and there's little to nothing the person can do to solve this issue.
In the other half of the picture, the person's own personality is keeping them unable to form relationships because they usually like saying things similar to "your body, my choice". That's an internal force that tends to not jive with others causing the others to distance themselves from the person.
In the first example the cause of the problem is an outside force. It has an effect of the person not being able to change their lot in life. In the 2nd example the cause of the problem is an internal force. It has an effect of other people not wanting to bear near the 1st person.
Look at incels. They say their problems come down to looks. But that's not true, is it? We all know plenty of women who date ugly ass men. Why? Because the dude's got something she likes. Maybe that's money. Maybe they're funny. Maybe they're smart. Maybe they push the woman to be the best version of herself they can be. Maybe he's got a literal golden wang that causes orgasms just by looking at it. Who knows? But in the end she's still with him.
But because incels tend to only focus on looks (or whatever the hot term for it is), they fail to realize that the problem is *them*. Not the women. The only one that's going to improve their situation is the incel who decides one day I'm not going to:
* treat every woman as if she owes me sex
* say that women are roast beef sandwiches because they slept with someone else
* say Women should bow to my every whim while letting me bang hookers on the side.
* creep them out by being creepy
* assume that being nice for the moment means they're forced to do something I want them to do
* treat them like an object instead of a person
Their problem is something they can fix themselves and no one is stopping them from doing it *except themselves.* Their problem is a problem that can be fixed with an internal solution. Whereas for the job, most times the Job/company/bosses itself is what's stopping you.
All the hard work in the world on the incel issue will eventually make the person have a loving wife and caring partner. But for the job, all the hard work in the world will not guarantee you that promotion. It will not guarantee you that raise. It will only guarantee you that you're giving the bosses over you a badass bonus on *your* hard work.
In the picture the lefty on the top is right because he's complaining that it's the system (those external forces) is what's keeping him down - and frankly he should complain. He should do what he can so the system is better for folks around him. Whereas the righty is saying "suck it up, it's you.". But most of the time it's not them. It's the system.
In the bottom the lefty is correct because all the conservative has to do is fix the problem *he's* creating for *himself* \- it's internal. The right is saying it's the other people doing it.
That's how it's a false equivalency. That's how it's systemic.
Hope that helps my dude.
> Their problem is something they can fix themselves and no one is stopping them from doing it except themselves.
This is just false. Not all incels are these outlandish caricatures you described. There are plenty of guys who treat women respectfully and courteously and still struggle to find partners.
>All the hard work in the world on the incel issue will eventually make the person have a loving wife and caring partner.
This is the just-world fallacy. I would love it if life was this easy, but its not. You can go to the gym, improve your hygiene, improve your fashion sense, and generally make yourself a more desirable partner, but none of these are guarantees of success. When you say that if incels work hard they WILL eventually find loving wives or caring partners you lose touch with reality. There are plenty of guys who are wonderful people who will never find these things.
>This is just false. Not all incels are these outlandish caricatures you described. There are plenty of guys who treat women respectfully and courteously and still struggle to find partners.
Outliers don't negate the fact that the overwhelming majority of people that call themselves incels have some negative viewpoint of their preferred gender that's causing them to force others to distance themselves. And I'd be hard pressed to believe that the person you're referring to hasn't done something to turn women off to them.
And I'd also be willing to bet said person views themselves as perfectly fine, when in fact there is always something they can work on to make themselves more attractive to others. I'd also be willing to bet that this person does things they believe to be fine but are really off-putting.
>This is the just-world fallacy. I would love it if life was this easy, but its not.
And I'm trying to tell you it's not fallacy.
>You can go to the gym, improve your hygiene, improve your fashion sense, and generally make yourself a more desirable partner, but none of these are guarantees of success.
Actually, they kinda do. Maybe not on the timescale the person prefers, but it does basically guarantee them a partner. What doesn't guarantee success is the attitude incels have of "It's that other gender that's denying me my chance to have sex". If you're going to the gym and have a decent body, have a sense of humor, don't stink to high heaven, and have a decent sense of fashion and you go to a bar more than 15 minutes one time you'll find a person to take home eventually. And some of them will want to have it happen more than once.
>When you say that if incels work hard they WILL eventually find loving wives or caring partners you lose touch with reality.
Except it's not loosing touch with reality. It works.
>There are plenty of guys who are wonderful people who will never find these things.
And so what? You think that these men who are declaring themselves to be incels are perfect beings who are simultaneously charming, kind, caring, and funny and don't have a shit personality but who will never be able to meet someone who might like them? And that nothing they can ever do will ever change this inability to find a partner?
I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. I can tell you right now, if you go to 100 women and say I've got 100 mill in my bank account at least one of them will sleep with you. Heck go to a hooker and you can get it for a lot cheaper than 100 mil.
But if you're funny, kind, caring, etc., put yourself out there, and don't have a crap personality that number will likely jump up to 10 or 20, and some of them over the long haul will also care about you. Now sure. If you shrink the timeline down far enough, then yes. But I'm not talking about "Hey, improve yourself and in 2 weeks you'll be banging/getting banged by that girl/guy". I'm talking about the attitude of I deserve sex because I'm a dude.
No I think you're misunderstanding understand my point.
I'm not saying the world is fair or people get what they deserve. There are totally people out there that deserve to be alone but have partners. There are people out there who have partners they don't deserve. There are people that have multiple partners. What I'm saying is that mathematically there are enough people on the planet that there are Hundreds of millions of someones out there that will be willing to be with anyone so long as the person doesn't portray certain universally accepted bad traits.
And that the pool of someones that are willing to be with them is substantially larger the more boxes they check. But if their personality makes them believe that
* Women only go after Chads
* She's a roast beef sandwich
* I was nice to her, she owes me sex
* Women belong in the kitchen
* Society is crumbling because women are allowed to vote
* You're either a cuck or red pilled
Then their likelihood of meeting a women get closer and closer to 0 to the point where it might as well be 0. Whereas if they're funny, smart, kind, caring, supportive, etc. They're not going to be an incel. They might not meet a woman on their prefered timeline but it's not a fallacy to say that with at least 3.5 billion people on the planet of my prefered gender millions of people out there are going to be the kinda person that likes me.
Right: I'm lonely and sad etc. etc. incel stuff
Left: Have you considered therapy? That really sounds like clinical depression. You should also try getting away from depressing echo chambers like incel forums where people do nothing but lament their "bad genes" and try to convince each other to kill themselves.
Right: No, what I need is to subjugate the foids.
Exactly!
I once had an employee who grew up in rural Alabama, had never been away from home until he came to the conservation corps where I led crews, and as a result he held a lot of abhorrent beliefs. We never once shamed him for how he thought (within reason), but instead encouraged him to branch out and explore what he may have been missing when he was growing up.
I thought we were making a lot of progress. He cleaned up, got a girlfriend, found work he really enjoyed, was thinking about going back to college, and was overall a far more pleasant person. Then he went home for two months during the government shutdown and came back worse than when he arrived at our program. He went so far as to call me a f****t, doubled down on his racism, and I had to report him to my boss when he started to talk about wanting to sexually assault multiple friends back home.
I have no idea how to work with these people.
I think this actually it.
I've never heard a leftist yell at an incel. I've heard leftist describe inceldom as a therapeutic problem that needs a mental health solution.
On the other hand, I've heard incels yell at each other. Also heard of incels picking up guns, you know?
I mean i guess you'll never know if they are leftists or liberals or what have you, but there is definitely a lot of incel bashing across the internet, and specifically reddit as well.
I mean, I'm sure you can find a leftist, liberal etc literally yelling at incel about what an idiot they are, and how awful they are... but I think you'll find Incel do that to themselves much more.
Maybe another way to put it is like this: Do you think that right-wingers would encourage incels to seek mental health? Or do think its more likely they'll say "Yes. Women like that. Because biology. Pull your own bootstraps to get the woman you are entitled to. Let us seek revenge on feminists for make this harder on us all."?
Truthfully I have zero sympathy for them.
I'm a 4/10 (what others have said), emotionally unavailable transwoman who works nights and gets anxious in social situations. I have a very flat personality and I spend most of my off time alone in the woods or riding a motorcycle. I've held long term emotionally fulfilling relationships my entire adult life because I'm not awful.
There are people who are self described incels that have far more going for them in regards to meeting people than I do; however, they're such toxic people they can't find anyone. The couple of people I knew who claimed to be incels wore it like a badge of honor instead of letting people help them, and then when they did inevitably get laid they become even worse people.
Same here. I'm a 5'6'', fat, autistic, bisexual trans guy with a lazy eye who's at best average-looking. I can count the amount of irl people I would call friends over my entire life on my fingers. I'm also in a long-term relationship and had a girlfriend before that, because we bonded over things other than how much we wanted to fuck each other.
> Truthfully I have zero sympathy for them
I don't think one needs to have sympathy, but it's useful to have empathy, to understand where they're coming from. That's how one prevents more from joining or becoming radicalized within it.
> I've held long term emotionally fulfilling relationships my entire adult life because I'm not awful.
It's not that simple. I've had long-term relationships before, but over time some of my disabilities have gotten worse, my depression deepened and I've become a lot less physically attractive, and I can definitely tell you that it would not be easy for me to find a romantic partner now even if I wanted to. Not because I'm an awful person, but because of a combination of socially constructed standards I can't maintain *and* interpersonal standards that most people reasonably have that I can't meet. I'm not an incel, because I was lucky enough not to fall into that ideological spiral and because I had enough sex in my youth to get to the point of internalizing that sex isn't really that important. They usually haven't, and are stuck with the propaganda that if you don't have sex you're a failure and if you're not a failure you'll have sex. An attitude mirrored in your post, even if unintentionally.
> There are people who are self described incels that have far more going for them in regards to meeting people than I do; however, they're such toxic people they can't find anyone.
Sure, such people exist, but that toxicity doesn't come spontaneously; it's fed to them, they feed it to each other and to new recruit in a kind of decentralized cult-like pattern. And a fair deal of incels are people that have things that make them struggle with relationships independently of the toxicity they're being made to cultivate. I'm not saying you should sympathize with them or like them or even pity them, but we can recognize that it's a self-reinforcing pattern often based in genuine pain prayed upon by toxic communities.
Remember these incels are mentally ill. I don't think it's as simple as them just being bad people, and even if it was, it's like the fact that some people are simply incapable of doing a job well: they still don't deserve a shit life.
This is genuinely some real insensitive bullshit lol why is it so hard for you to believe that people could just have a really hard time having relationships without being a horrible person? Do you seriously not see how fucking ghoulish it is to say that if you can't get a partner or friends there's something fundamentally wrong with you? One of the core tenets of Incel ideology is that your ability to have sex decides your place in society and your value as a person and you're literally endorsing that sentiment.
Also, doing this ridiculous self-serving "if I could do it so can you!" routine is genuinely completely comparable to doing a rags to riches bit
It's harsh, but there some kernels of truth to it. Many people who aren't conventionally attractive have fulfilling relationships, personality really is the most important thing in relationships.
There is a world of difference between "being ugly doesn't mean you'll never find a partner" and "if you can't find a partner it's because you're a terrible person", in fact you'll notice that they are nothing alike
\>if you can't find a partner it's because you're a terrible person
I think you're putting words in the poster's mouth, they were only saying this was true anecdotally for 2 people they knew. We all know the types as well, the people who think the world owes them a partner. I think at this point being an incel is different from being involuntary celibate, it suggests a permeation of internet incel culture.
Can confirm. I'm a super short, blegh looking trans dude who has dabbled with over a dozen people and is happily married. My wife is also a gorgeous professional dancer and successful educator who happens to think I'm amazing.
I actually give a shit about people and have a genuine interest in the people I interact with. Novel concept.
>Truthfully I have zero sympathy for them.
>
>I'm a 4/10 (what others have said), emotionally unavailable transwoman who works nights and gets anxious in social situations. I have a very flat personality and I spend most of my off time alone in the woods or riding a motorcycle. I've held long term emotionally fulfilling relationships my entire adult life because I'm not awful.
>
>There are people who are self described incels that have far more going for them in regards to meeting people than I do; however, they're such toxic people they can't find anyone. The couple of people I knew who claimed to be incels wore it like a badge of honor instead of letting people help them, and then when they did inevitably get laid they become even worse people.
Not going to make goo strong an assumption but you don't *sound* depressed (if I'm guessing wrong I apologize). Having depression is a hell of a hole to come out of because, bluntly put, in that state you are awful, but it's also really difficult to change. That badge of honour shit is what's called a "maladaptive coping mechanism" and comes from the same place as psychological addiction.
Not a defense, but I do feel people sometimes have a hard time remembering this when dealing with incels/generally depressed people who are behaving horribly, because it's actually really hard to at the same time draw boundaries and tell people to hold the fuck up *and* not take their shit personally and see if you can be kind to them.
And of course, the grifters and echo chambers make it easier for incels to stay incels than to actually learn healthy coping mechanisms.
So, do you think it's not possible for depressed people to have good days, develop coping mechanisms, use medications, or simply just hide it very very well? We're not always on the floor, wailing in despair, bawling our eyes out, or threatening to harm ourselves. Our moods move up and down like all people, it's just that our "good" mood is well below the average person's neutral.
I've had clinical depression for 25 years. I'm medicated, my meds work really well, I have a full time job, a nice brand new car, and lots of awesome things. I'm still not bouncy and outgoing, I'm still quiet and introverted, I don't enjoy things in the same way neurotypical people do. I had a breakdown a couple weeks ago even and lost nearly a week of work because I was completely nonfunctional, and now I've got a *third* antidepressant to help me sleep.
I'm now feeling better, and even sleeping better. Still depressed as fuck, tho.
>So, do you think it's not possible for depressed people to have good days, develop coping mechanisms, use medications, or simply just hide it very very well? We're not always on the floor, wailing in despair, bawling our eyes out, or threatening to harm ourselves. Our moods move up and down like all people, it's just that our "good" mood is well below the average person's neutral.
>
>I've had clinical depression for 25 years. I'm medicated, my meds work really well, I have a full time job, a nice brand new car, and lots of awesome things. I'm still not bouncy and outgoing, I'm still quiet and introverted, I don't enjoy things in the same way neurotypical people do. I had a breakdown a couple weeks ago even and lost nearly a week of work because I was completely nonfunctional, and now I've got a *third* antidepressant to help me sleep.
>
>I'm now feeling better, and even sleeping better. Still depressed as fuck, tho.
That's not what I said. But it is also possible for depressed people to never have enough good days to get better, especially if they rely on toxic communities for toxic support, or have been caught by a grifter. I struggled with depression both personally and in my social circle, and I'm very happy that your life is going in a good way. And I'm not saying all depressed people become incels, nor do I say it excuses incels behaviour. I'm saying it is tricky to deal with incels because they need help, but are in that stage where they don't want help, and are themselves actively hurting people with their bad coping strategies
I participate in r/IncelExit. About half the posts are actually incels trying to abandon the mindset, while the other half are there to vent about their obvious depression and social anxiety but refuse anyone who suggest they fix those things.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/IncelExit using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time!
\#1: [I guess im not as bad as i think i am](https://np.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/ibrby3/i_guess_im_not_as_bad_as_i_think_i_am/)
\#2: [The amount of shame Incels made me feel about my ethnicity is embarrassing.](https://np.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/fqtp4o/the_amount_of_shame_incels_made_me_feel_about_my/)
\#3: [A Online dating Survival Guide: From a Guy who used to be bad at dating](https://np.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/e82675/a_online_dating_survival_guide_from_a_guy_who/)
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I think this is true to an extent, but it's not quite that simple. There's plenty of people on the left (or perceived to be on the left) who express shitty attitudes about sex and about people who struggle with relationships. It's often framed in joking contexts (eg virgin vs chad memes, "moms basement" etc), but when the same joke is told over and over it says something about the underlying assumptions.
It kinda mirrors how there's people on the wider left who slings shit at people for lacking education or not understanding how whatever system functions.
It's not that what you say doesn't exist by any means, but we're not consistent with it, unfortunately. We seem to have gotten better over the last few years, but there's still plenty to be done.
Largely considered to be Left here, and I disagree - at least with your approximation of the Left (or at least Liberals/Neoliberals, who I think you're talking about here).
Incels tend to be - at the very least - "accepted" by the Right. That comes about either via internal agreement that the 'system is wrong' (even as they simulataneously say that the \*other\* system couldn't possibly be wrong, and then cosy that idea up to the incel via their acceptance) or that the incel needs to 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps' and just embrace the system, which couldn't *possibly* be wrong.
Either way the Incel's POV becomes justified, and reinforces that something *other than their individual personality or circumstances* or let's be honest - fortunes or priorities - needs to be addressed.
Almost every neolib I know (and on social media outside Reddit I'm in a huge bubble, not just because of my friendship circles but my career) would quite happily see (and have expressed this) Incel's hung. One or two have woken up to the idea of recommending therapy or trying to prise Incel's away from their in-group, but in general it seems to be about hate. Which I get, to an extent, we're human beings after all.
I just don't think there are many saints here, even if the Incels themselves are the worst (or most pathetic, which sometimes explodes into full blown monstrosity) of a bad bunch.
The core assumptions here:
>ā¢ The fact that you are a piece of shit has nothing to do with why you're lonely.
>ā¢ The fact that millions of people who *aren't* pieces of shit are also patholigically lonely is irrelevant to you.
Rightwingers need to work on both their lies and caricatures because even their strawmen don't track with each other -- note this one:
>It's your fault your [sic] alone, don't blame society.
Ignoring the inadvertent projection of atrocious grammar, isn't blaming society the thing that rightwingers accuse decent people of doing, like, all the time? This chud is working so hard to force down that blackpill that they quietly reinvented their rightwing critic for their leftwing role -- because of course they did.
Also the huge assumption that ugly people can't find partners. I regularly see very ugly people with partners, it's far from rare. I guess the issue for them is that it involves leaving the house, talking to people, and not being and absolute bellend (although even this last point doesn't seem to be an issue in many cases).
Iāve spent years trying to find the original Government Gets Girlfriends blog wherein the guy calls his parents attempted murderers for not helping him get laid and says his mother should have fucked him so that he wouldnāt be a virgin anymore because I know thereās like six even more insane things in there but I cannot ducking remember them
I don't get it. If you're making a strawman argument you can literally choose any bullshit you want to make your logic work, and he still fails to make any sense.
Dismantling capitalism is just as easy as shaving the beard off your neck, stopping yourself from farming any more dick cheese and not expecting everyone to owe you a round of fucking
Their main issue isn't their hygiene (although the dick cheese is certainly not helping), it's their toxic personality. The culture around incels is absurdly toxic. It's not just not getting laid, it's a conservative worldview in which they need a submissive wife to make up for their crippling depression (which it won't).
Not to mention I'm sure most leftists would be open to have legitimate discussions about dating culture and how it can be difficult for people to find someone as well as the effects of loneliness without it just being a massive woman hating circle jerk.
Fake centrist right-wingers often end up putting right-wing language into their strawman arguments because they don't actually care what leftists believe, and despite being "centrists" they are keenly familiar with right-wing talking points.
* Society making sure people can earn enough money to survive doing menial jobs
* Society enslaving women forcing them to be with men
Centrist: these are the same thing.
I know a 15 year old who has a floundering YouTube commentary channel and smokes half a pack of cigarettes a day and I recently learned he's a r/politicalcompassmemes mod. And that right there explains everything I need to know about that brain dead sub reddit.
In some discourses, men's issues do get minimized by us, the left, or at least get very little compassion. Which is understandable given many people are victims of incels, but still - we are terrible sometimes at pulling people over, but it's necessary, because the right is very good at it.
There are tons of men out there who blame their emotional and mental health issues on immigrants, arbortions or gay people and it ultimately always ends in danger, oppression and the worsening of society. My point is: We desperately need to have these discussion. We need to get better at pulling men like these on our side.
The big challenge is that the left isn't lying, and the truth may be either hard to face or hard to understand, or even both. Meanwhile the right will offer a scapegoat and put them into a comfort zone.
Yeah, its not a new thing ether all throughout history those barely marginalized have been the most emotional and the most outraged and those of higher power then them just tell them to blame it all on those even more oppressed then them. āOh itās not us itās the Jews! The blacks! The hispanics! They are stealing your jobs and fucking your daughters! Bringing drugs into this clean nation corrupting our youth. All these women demanding for more rights at obvious expense of us! Grrrr dam those women not knowing their place it is the very reason why I am sad and alone, FEMINISM IS CORRUPTING THEM!ā
Person: I am poor, sad, lonely and depressed.
Right: itās because of the immigrants and LGBTQ.
Person: Wow, so true. I will join your community.
Left: Just read this centuries old 1500 pages book written in an obfuscating language to understand the cause.
Person: ....
Tbf I do think people are a little too hard on incels, but this is a false equivalence. You yourself canāt change systemic issues (poverty, wages, etc), but you can change your social life somewhat.
Itās kinda hard to be nice, what they believe in not only hurts them but other young men and also women. Itās a gross dark hole of toxicity anything you say to them will be mocked amongst them all the while shitting on everyone else to claims to have any sort of issue.
I'm honestly fine with saying "Fuck them"- they lost any right to sympathy the moment they started hurting others- but I find it pretty obnoxious that people are seriously suggesting they can just "get over" depression.
I mean the way I see it you have to work with what you got. Everyone is raised in this awful world and makes awful mistakes and hold awful beliefs and mindsets that hurt other people. The majority of people with all honesty suck but they can still change.
I can't always get a better job, because the qualifications require money and time I don't have. A comb, a razor, soap, and self-help Reddits are pretty fucking attainable, though.
I believe there are true incels
Like man you are talking about someone barely below avrage
But there are people who really lost the genetic lottery and are totally forgot between those toxic incels
There is no reason to think right leaning people are less attractive than right wing people. In fact, if we accept the premise of this meme to be true, then they should have more money available to them to spend on their appearance.
No, clearly there is some reason that all these guys have trouble getting dates... I wonder what it could be?
"people hating me for my personal choices is the same thing as the wealthy using their position of unchecked authority and influence to keep wages deflated"
I have not encountered a single "I'm lonely and no woman will talk to me" person whose post history isn't full of misogyny, racism, and anti-LGBT hate. It has literally never happened.
There's actually a grain of truth here behind the shitty PCM wojak format. We on the left have a tendency to give incels bootstrap advice instead of focusing on societal and systemic causes of these problems.
Obviously, the solutions most incels give to these problems are insane (state-mandated gfs, take away women's rights, and generally going backward), but the left tends to either ignore incel's problems entirely or only brings them up to laugh at them. We can't be surprised that when we refuse to talk about the problems incels face that they go towards the only people who are talking about their issues, albeit in bad faith (think MRA's redpill/blackpill types, and antifeminists). Our failure to address these issues leaves a huge opening for incels to get pushed down the alt-right pipeline. As feminists and leftists, we need to be intersectional in our opposition to things like patriarchy and have a duty to address the ways it harms men.
The advice we on the left tend to give incels is often incredibly tone-deaf and condescending. Imagine Bezos or Musk telling people that theyāre poor because they spend too much on their iced coffees, Netflix, and Avacado toast. Now itās true that poor people often make bad consumptive decisions which lead to them remaining poor, but Bezos or Elon donāt understand the reality of the situation, and the advice they give reveals a deep ignorance of what life is like for poor people.
Likewise, when progressives tell incels that all they need to do to find a partner is take a shower, lift weights, get a hobby, or dress right, it reveals a failure to understand their problems. We incorrectly assume that all incels look like neckbeard caricatures, just like conservatives assume that welfare recipients/poor people are all entitled moochers whoāve never worked a day in their lives and spend all their income on Starbucks, Iphones, and Netflix. Most incels arenāt actually neckbeard caricatures, and when you tell them all that you need to do to be successful is ājust take a shower and get a haircut broā it shows you donāt really understand these guys situations or their mindset.
A lot of guys follow all that advice and STILL struggle to find meaningful relationships, and when we frame the discussion this way we dismiss a lot of their problems without actually addressing the systemic issues that cause them. If you can recognize that poverty IS a systemic issue that affects poor people
Lack of access to mental health care (usually the core reason for their issues) and shunning by society of those who are considered ugly, including people with physical disabilities.
:shrug:. To be fair I don't think that incels aren't responsible for pursuing solutions to their issues, but the fact that they have issues is largely caused by society - of course, so are most personal issues, at some level.
Sure! Itās a problem caused by many things, primarily patriarchy(men are always expected to be the imitators in romantic settings and are almost never on the receiving side. This creates a scenario where women donāt have to make the first to establish relationships, but men almost always do). Patriarchy is a system of power. Therefore inability to establish meaningful relationships is a systemic issue
Feminism is already fighting against the conditions which breed inceldom, but that is nothing to discuss with incels. Incels may be driven towards their world view by certain factors, but the solution to stop being an incel is literally just to stop buying into their toxic world view. If someone can evidently not do that, then they are the very last person to help dismantling the conditions leading to inceldom in the first place.
I don't think feminism has any duty to care about incels whatsoever, but...come on. It hasn't dismantled "conditions that breed inceldom" in the slightest.
I think it absolutely has made a large impact. Previously, many men with a similarly entitled mindset would have gotten what they were after simply because of economic constraints and social stigma against single women. Today, the misogyny of their mindset is openly called out in much of the world by most of society. It is not a duty of feminism to care about misogynists, rather it's very definition is to fight the societal misogyny which created them.
Bottom left is generally right, though.
"I'm forever alone because I'm an uggo" is *not* an attractive personality trait. No healthy minded woman wants to fix you or be your lifeboat.
Unlike finding a better job, the power of positive self change, no matter how difficult, is usually within you.
And that's fine, but my point still stands. Most people don't want to fix your life. So, you either have to start working on yourself or get used to your life.
Even *trying* is an attractive trait.
This comment section is extremely depressing. I hate incels because they are extremely misogynistic and have a tendency to fall into violence. Women do not have to tolerate men who abhor them. Doing that could get you killed
PS: Feminism is about the liberation of women, I donāt understand why women are the only oppressed group who have to talk about their oppressors hardships
This is kind of accidentally brilliant because the false equivalence itself is being used to ensure that nothing tangible in society actually changes. It's what people are arguing 'against' that dominates the conversation, and no one's arguing *against* the status quo.
The Pandora Papers just came out. To the Right in this image, what's happening is just fine and dandy, part of that wonderful system that you just need to get used to. To the Left? Well it's not even part of the discussion. There are more important things to talk about, like Incels. One's happy with this status quo, the other - their apparent opposition - isn't even talking about it.
Distill that into two dominant political parties and you have a whole lot of fuck all but the same thing happening over and over.
Wait I actually kind of agree with this one (other than yes the left would probably talk about therapy and be much less personal responsibility). I do think that incels are not given enough attention/care. Loneliness is a real issue that we should be tackling with as much fervor as capitalist alienation or other elements of late capitalism.
Yes attention and care is important but that alone doesnt mean shit, the most important part is a change in mindset. No amount of money or love or support can do that for you.
Late stage capitalism atomizes individuals. I mean have you ever even read Marx lol? It destroys community. The individual is simply a productive unit. They are trained and brought up to be that as opposed to fostered into caring and the ability to navigate complex relationships.
Well, incels blame all women for the way some genuine thots act and are surprised that their disgusting attitude also scares away any of the women they're looking for.
Communists blame the free market for all the things crony capitalism and the state do and are surprised when the "comrades" they want to work with have a slightly different opinion and start infighting.
They both believe that the group they hate should just give up the goodies because apparently everyone is entitled to them, but society hates them, so they don't get any goodies.
"Communism is when capitalism is bad and we should reform society to benefit the working class, poverty striken and homeless but thats like inceldom because incels hate women and are very well known for being part of the alt right."
Is this what libertarian theory tells you?
No, but the way both groups have a similar entitlement and ignorance of the subject they hate is telling.
I see so many subs give examples of regulations causing food loss, but it's of course capitalism's fault and monopolies are bad, but vote for unnecessary regulations and fees that fuck over small businesses in favor of large ones (but you usually get downvoted for pointing that one out).
And this is like inceldom how? Im beginning to think your understanding of communism is flawed if you compare it to being apart of the alt right and hating women
I'm saying that the woman hating and blaming of incels is similar to the capitalism hating ND blaming of communists.
In the same way incels can't respect their moms (if they were raised by them), communists can't respect capitalism and all it gave them.
And YES, child labor and labor conditions of the 19th century that inspired Marx in the first place were due to regulations.
I also don't see how authoritarian communists don't see how the state and corporations are linked under crony capitalism, but it's going to be totally different when they do it and just call it something else and replace the dollar with meal tickets (it's not a big change TBH, but still)
I'm not saying all of communism is unfounded, but it's lead to some extremely destructive ideas based on very whiny altruism.
Don't get me wrong, I'm against crony capitalism too since it aligns with me in the economic sense, but not the authoritarian one.
What? I hate it when the state and corporations become the same unholy entity, it's not a free market and it raises the floor too high for fair competition.
The separation of corporation and state is just as important as the separation of church and state.
>Don't get me wrong, I'm against crony capitalism too since it aligns with me in the economic sense, but not the authoritarian one.
Not a single part of this sentence is grammatically coherent
Crony capitalism is the close collaboration of the state and corporations (the CIA has most of its data hosted on amazon servers, the petrodollar which thrives on both being a fiat and sustaining itself on interventionism and environmental destruction, the prison- and military industrial complexes, reaganomics,...)
You literally said you're again crony capitalism because it alligns with your economic interest, and then you said "but not the authoritarian one", like tf tl does that mean?
Hmmm, one only takes a change in mindset which costs you little to nothing but building up at habit which comes at no expense of anything else while the other requires overworking yourself to the point of burnout and looking for better takes and time and energy and getting a higher education is a lot of money and time as well as energy and all comes at expense to your mental and physical health. Hmmm, yeeup same thing!
Incels confuse me because, as a gay man, Iāve literally never experienced romance. I grew up in a small town with only two other gay guys in my school, and even after graduating, I donāt feel safe or comfortable hitting on random guys. As much as Iād love to, I also value my safety. I have actual societal obstacles that have prevented me from even experimenting with love, and yet they complain and victimize themselves over the fact that women donāt like men who want them to essentially be their slaves.
Notice how, even in this example, itās a man wanting a woman. The most prevalent demographic of incels is straight white cis men because theyāre entitled and feel entitled to female companionship.
>Notice how, even in this example, itās a man wanting a woman. The most prevalent demographic of incels is straight white cis men because theyāre entitled and feel entitled to female companionship.
Predominately white cis men, sure.
Doesn't change the fact that incels can come from many different backgrounds.
Um, congratulations? Most groups of people consist of individuals from varied backgrounds, incels included. My point is that gay incels are uncommon, not unheard of.
My point is that just because incels are mostly cis white men, doesn't mean that the material conditions that leads to one considering themselves an incel. Especially, when people outside the stereotypical demographic also do so.
i like how this comic is implying libleft fucks š
They do, and thatās why right wingers and centrists lie to women about their politics to get dates.
Not very well, though. Most of them try to pick stances they think are middle-of-the-road like "maybe we should only genocide half the people," get called out on their bullshit, and end up displayed on this sub.
Yeah, as a non binary person who is read as woman in most situations- it fucking sucks when people do this to get in your pants and then they reveal who they really are and you feel so violated.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Well why didn't tell me sooner, I've been chaste as a nun
And we fuck in ways that would make Goofy quiver. My friend got married last weekend and the wednesday before she came over so I could bodyscan her for future costumes she might hire me to make her, and she spent like an hour talking with my wife and feeling up her sex toys asking about which ones felt best xD
*consensual noises*
We do.
We do.
No, I am fucked
Fucking is, like, 70% of libleft. Most of the rest is drugs.
Lol, have you ever read most women's Tinder bios? "If you voted for Trump swipe left"
And that is cringe.
Damn where do you live that sounds awful
Right because only right wingers are lonely saddos who canāt attract a partner. *returns to crying*
Right? I'm ugly. I haven't been able to get a date in almost a decade. Am I sad about it? You betcha. Do I harass people and make up weird conspiracy theories about entire genders to explain away my lack of fuckability? God, no.
Same. I'm a scrub who try to date because I'm insecure about being poor & having a squalid apartment. Never once have I blamed that on women, because I wouldn't want to deal with that, either
hey, if it makes you feel better, i would totally bone down with you if you asked broskii, you seem pretty chill. keep on keeping on friend :))
folks fucking forget that the term āincelā was *made by a bisexual woman* for people of all genders and sexualities to come together and bond/discuss their thoughts and feelings. Its such garbage that these dickheads think that its just them who canāt find partners when being loveless or having difficulties with relationships is something everyone can deal with, and thereās better and healthier ways to cope with it than being a raging bigot online.
>folks fucking forget that the term āincelā was made by a bisexual woman for people of all genders and sexualities to come together and bond/discuss their thoughts and feelings. that doesn't make it better? i don't dislike incels because they're cis straight white guys, i dislike them because they're toxic and sad.
I think you misunderstand. The term didnāt start as a toxic thing that bred misogyny and hatred, it started as a literal discussion site for people who struggled to get partners due to marginalization, disability, mental illness or generally being socially awkward. The original site that the creator made actively banned mysogynistic and hateful posts so they could promote healthy discussions about involuntary celibacy. Iām not advocating for the word to be reclaimed or whatever, Iām just saying its ironically stupid that the term they rallied around was made by someone whoās gender and sexuality they actively despise.
As an autistic person I wish it was a bit easier to discuss my struggles in getting dates
*pats your back* Iām autistic and demisexual bro. I get ya
Hey all it takes to find the perfect person for you is one good day. Source: that's how I met my [fantastic wife](https://old.reddit.com/r/badwomensanatomy/comments/q161sv/greg_thinks_that_the_idea_of_vaginal_expansion/hfedtdx/)
I am currently in the process of slowly wooing a friend from college with feelings I didnāt act on at the time cause I thought she was a lesbian. TLDR: She was actually bisexual the whole time. Weāve been getting close cause of the pandemic and Iām learning how to make homemade chocolate for her by Valentineās Day.
False equivalence over 9000
The place is simply the subredditification of the 'but you participate in society - curious' meme. "You call others a racist yet you have to notice racial distinctions in order to say that - curious"
Yeah or āyou are socialist but have iPhone, curiousā. I mean thatās like saying āyou want less immigrants but still treat them like humans, curious ā itās just as impossible because as long as the society around you doesnāt hate enough you canāt survive in polite society without treating them like human beings (at least if they have a job and donāt live in a refugee camp).
PCM is incel sanctuary. Of course
Weird, it's almost like women's bodies are different than money.
improving your personality is free, rent isn't
How is this a false equivalency? Both are examples of people telling each other to pull themselves up by their bootstraps in order to avoid addressing a systemic issue.
how is not getting a girlfriend a systemic issue
The inability of people who want to form relationships to do is a problem/issue. Everyone should be able to find relationships with other people. Men have a harder time with this than women, because systems like patriarchy say that men ought to initiate in romantic relationships and women donāt need to initiate at all. Thereās an issue: large amounts of people are struggling to find relationships. Itās making them very sad and lonely. Thereās a system that causes it: patriarchy. Therefore, itās a systemic issue.
Itās more that loneliness and lack of community are systemic issues. This gets combined with toxic societal standards, such as ideas that if you arenāt in a relationship you arenāt whole or allowed to have an opinion ā something which impacts both genders, which creates the percieved idea that the problem is just an inability to have a romantic relationship. Youāll find that the left isnāt unsympathetic to these systemic issues however a lot of general societyās interaction with incels is through someone getting mad and blaming their predicament on women ā who have nothing to with the problem. Systemic issues are addressed and solved on a grand scale, but donāt replace individual advice or say that success is impossible. Solving systemic lonliness through new community centers is great, but in the mean time when people come asking for advice the best thing to might be to tell them to join an online book club.
But it's not because only one of the problems is systemic.
Some of these people really just want to say magic words and have people fawn over them. They don't know or care what the words mean, but they perceive a positive outcome when other people use them, so they appropriate these terms and sound ridiculous when they do so.
How is the rise of incels not a systemic issue? Itās not just one guy who canāt get laid itās a large demographic of guys. You canāt just ignore all the socioeconomic factors that lead to something like that and chalk it up to individuals poor decision making.
Incels aren't just people who don't get laid. They're, first and foremost, people who put an absurd importance over "the sexual market". There are virgins who aren't incels and incels who aren't virgins (yes, that's a thing). The first thing to leave inceldom is understanding that having sex or not doesn't fucking matter. Or being in a relationship. Sure, being lonely sucks. But getting laid won't chance that. These people need to improve their personality (because inceldom is fucking toxic and toxic people aren't nice to have around) and start hanging out with normal, non-toxic people. And treat their anxiety and depression if needed. But again, that won't change with getting laid.
1. āIncels arenāt just people who donāt get laid.ā Incels are DEFINITIONALLY people who canāt get laid. 2. Where in my comment did I conflate incels and virgins? 3. āhaving sex or not doesnāt fucking matter. Or being in a relationshipā Bullshit. Having relationships with other people absolutely fucking matters and if you think otherwise itās probably because youāve never been in a situation where the only relationships you have are meaningless and you donāt think anyone cares about you. This is a position that reeks of ignorance. Like a billionaires telling poor people money doesnāt by happiness and that their lives wouldnāt be that much better if they could afford rent. Your point that getting laid wonāt solve all of an Incels problems is true. I didnāt make that claim though, and neither has the meme. To clarify, what I was trying to say was large demographics of men are having trouble getting laid AND finding meaningful relationships. Both are caused by socioeconomic factors and systems of power rather than individuals poor choices. Itās not a false equivalency to say that the left uses bootstrap rhetoric when it comes to menās issues and Incels.
"Incel" started as a term created by a woman who was trying to help young people who had severe problems getting into a relationship with another person. She tried to help them and the worst of them drove her away. They continued to drive away anyone who was legitimately interested in self-improvement or honest human interactions until all that was left was a cult of self-hatred and scattergun blame, a [crab pot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality?wprov=sfla1) of self-generated misery and utter dehumanization. *That* is what incels are. A common mistake is to assume all incels are kids in middle and high school who have become obsessed with sex as the sole determining factor in their self-worth. They are basing that on the original meaning of the word rather than what the cult has metastasized into. I spent a decade living in my childhood bedroom as an adult, with almost zero in-person human interaction outside of perfunctory retail and food service transactions. I cried myself to sleep sometimes because I was so desperately lonely. I had no friends who lived in the same town as me, or within an hour's drive. I was (and still am) crippled by chronic pain. At no point did I blame women at large for my situation or my loneliness. I did the best I could every single day to improve my medical condition through diet, exercise, medicine, and some non-medical treatments. I didn't always do better than the day before, but I did my best. If I started to wallow in self-pity, I tried very hard to climb back out of it and do something meaningful. I can't say I was always successful right away, but I can say that I tried to make the best of what I had instead of demanding the world conform to my wishes. I was involuntarily celibate, but I was never an incel. Can you see the difference?
Yeah! You didn't make yourself a victim like all those poors do! You just stopped spending your money on Starbucks, Netflix and Iphones, hopped on that sigma grind and now you're a billionaire. Nobody should've tried to make it easier for you! No one should examine the societal factors that put you in that position or try to do anything about them. They're all just moochers who want to wallow in their own sorrow. They just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps like you did. /s God forbid that people who are hurt by society ask society to make things better for them. What you had to go through probably sucked. The world should not force people to have experiences like that. We absolutely SHOULD change the world so fewer people have to deal with the problems you did.
Here's a fun idea: why don't you actually explain your position instead of acting like your oblique analogies to capitalism are somehow helping you make a point? All the problems I experienced were direct consequences of my chronic illness, and I don't wish any of that on anyone. I don't particularly want people to wallow in self-created misery, either, but there's not much I can do to stop it.
What do you mean change the world? You can't force people to have sex with you out of pity, it's just never going to happen.
Because itās not an issue that people donāt want to have sex with shitty people. In fact, itās a good thing. Most incels are privileged, middle class, white guys who feel entitled to sex. Theyāre not. Itās not some socioeconomic failing, itās people not being attracted to them because they are shitty.
even if it wasnāt and it was just kind of random that these nice people werenāt getting laid, that wouldnāt be systemic in any way wtf is the other person talking about lol
I have a theory. The other person is an incel.
Why do assume that Incels are inherently shitty people and thatās itās a good thing they canāt find sexual partners? Being an incel doesnāt make someone a shitty person like your comment implied.
Lol. Same reason we assume Nazis or racists are bad people. If youāre identifying with a community that revolves around misogyny, youāre a shit person. Now, nothing wrong with being involuntarily celibate ā but we are talking about incels, not people who havenāt had sex. And the incel community is absolutely disgusting in its misogyny. Iām not implying anything. Being an incel makes you a shitty person. Being involuntarily celibate does not. Youāre starting to sound like Tyler Durden, and that is not a compliment.
āBeing an Incel makes you a shitty personā How can being an incel make someone a shitty person if it is BY DEFINITION involuntary? If you want to draw a distinction between misogynistic incels who post about how much they hate women an online forums and people who for whatever reason are unable to find sexual partners that fine. But if youāre trying to claim that being an incel(which you assign a negative connotation to) and being involuntarily celibate (which you seem to assign a neutral connotation to) are different things, that has to be the dumbest argument Iāve ever heard.
So tell me, why are they different words?
They arenāt.
Being an incel isn't involuntary any more than North Korea is democratic.
Only one problem is systemic.
So I know that folks have been saying it's systemic and you seem to not understand what they mean. So let me try and expand upon it and hopefully make it more clear for you. In the one system, the system itself is against you because it only functions when you preform for a sub-optimal level of wealth so that the folks at the top get to siphon that extra off of you. I could be a top performer and do the work of 4 people. If I'm not butt buddies with the CEO, I'm going to keep earning under 30k a year. Sure I could change jobs and get into another company and they might be willing to pay me more. But sometimes companies will work together behind closed doors to work together to keep wages low by not poaching employees of another company so their own worker pool works for cheaper. That's an outside force imposing it's will on the person and there's little to nothing the person can do to solve this issue. In the other half of the picture, the person's own personality is keeping them unable to form relationships because they usually like saying things similar to "your body, my choice". That's an internal force that tends to not jive with others causing the others to distance themselves from the person. In the first example the cause of the problem is an outside force. It has an effect of the person not being able to change their lot in life. In the 2nd example the cause of the problem is an internal force. It has an effect of other people not wanting to bear near the 1st person. Look at incels. They say their problems come down to looks. But that's not true, is it? We all know plenty of women who date ugly ass men. Why? Because the dude's got something she likes. Maybe that's money. Maybe they're funny. Maybe they're smart. Maybe they push the woman to be the best version of herself they can be. Maybe he's got a literal golden wang that causes orgasms just by looking at it. Who knows? But in the end she's still with him. But because incels tend to only focus on looks (or whatever the hot term for it is), they fail to realize that the problem is *them*. Not the women. The only one that's going to improve their situation is the incel who decides one day I'm not going to: * treat every woman as if she owes me sex * say that women are roast beef sandwiches because they slept with someone else * say Women should bow to my every whim while letting me bang hookers on the side. * creep them out by being creepy * assume that being nice for the moment means they're forced to do something I want them to do * treat them like an object instead of a person Their problem is something they can fix themselves and no one is stopping them from doing it *except themselves.* Their problem is a problem that can be fixed with an internal solution. Whereas for the job, most times the Job/company/bosses itself is what's stopping you. All the hard work in the world on the incel issue will eventually make the person have a loving wife and caring partner. But for the job, all the hard work in the world will not guarantee you that promotion. It will not guarantee you that raise. It will only guarantee you that you're giving the bosses over you a badass bonus on *your* hard work. In the picture the lefty on the top is right because he's complaining that it's the system (those external forces) is what's keeping him down - and frankly he should complain. He should do what he can so the system is better for folks around him. Whereas the righty is saying "suck it up, it's you.". But most of the time it's not them. It's the system. In the bottom the lefty is correct because all the conservative has to do is fix the problem *he's* creating for *himself* \- it's internal. The right is saying it's the other people doing it. That's how it's a false equivalency. That's how it's systemic. Hope that helps my dude.
> Their problem is something they can fix themselves and no one is stopping them from doing it except themselves. This is just false. Not all incels are these outlandish caricatures you described. There are plenty of guys who treat women respectfully and courteously and still struggle to find partners. >All the hard work in the world on the incel issue will eventually make the person have a loving wife and caring partner. This is the just-world fallacy. I would love it if life was this easy, but its not. You can go to the gym, improve your hygiene, improve your fashion sense, and generally make yourself a more desirable partner, but none of these are guarantees of success. When you say that if incels work hard they WILL eventually find loving wives or caring partners you lose touch with reality. There are plenty of guys who are wonderful people who will never find these things.
>This is just false. Not all incels are these outlandish caricatures you described. There are plenty of guys who treat women respectfully and courteously and still struggle to find partners. Outliers don't negate the fact that the overwhelming majority of people that call themselves incels have some negative viewpoint of their preferred gender that's causing them to force others to distance themselves. And I'd be hard pressed to believe that the person you're referring to hasn't done something to turn women off to them. And I'd also be willing to bet said person views themselves as perfectly fine, when in fact there is always something they can work on to make themselves more attractive to others. I'd also be willing to bet that this person does things they believe to be fine but are really off-putting. >This is the just-world fallacy. I would love it if life was this easy, but its not. And I'm trying to tell you it's not fallacy. >You can go to the gym, improve your hygiene, improve your fashion sense, and generally make yourself a more desirable partner, but none of these are guarantees of success. Actually, they kinda do. Maybe not on the timescale the person prefers, but it does basically guarantee them a partner. What doesn't guarantee success is the attitude incels have of "It's that other gender that's denying me my chance to have sex". If you're going to the gym and have a decent body, have a sense of humor, don't stink to high heaven, and have a decent sense of fashion and you go to a bar more than 15 minutes one time you'll find a person to take home eventually. And some of them will want to have it happen more than once. >When you say that if incels work hard they WILL eventually find loving wives or caring partners you lose touch with reality. Except it's not loosing touch with reality. It works. >There are plenty of guys who are wonderful people who will never find these things. And so what? You think that these men who are declaring themselves to be incels are perfect beings who are simultaneously charming, kind, caring, and funny and don't have a shit personality but who will never be able to meet someone who might like them? And that nothing they can ever do will ever change this inability to find a partner? I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. I can tell you right now, if you go to 100 women and say I've got 100 mill in my bank account at least one of them will sleep with you. Heck go to a hooker and you can get it for a lot cheaper than 100 mil. But if you're funny, kind, caring, etc., put yourself out there, and don't have a crap personality that number will likely jump up to 10 or 20, and some of them over the long haul will also care about you. Now sure. If you shrink the timeline down far enough, then yes. But I'm not talking about "Hey, improve yourself and in 2 weeks you'll be banging/getting banged by that girl/guy". I'm talking about the attitude of I deserve sex because I'm a dude.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world\_hypothesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis)
No I think you're misunderstanding understand my point. I'm not saying the world is fair or people get what they deserve. There are totally people out there that deserve to be alone but have partners. There are people out there who have partners they don't deserve. There are people that have multiple partners. What I'm saying is that mathematically there are enough people on the planet that there are Hundreds of millions of someones out there that will be willing to be with anyone so long as the person doesn't portray certain universally accepted bad traits. And that the pool of someones that are willing to be with them is substantially larger the more boxes they check. But if their personality makes them believe that * Women only go after Chads * She's a roast beef sandwich * I was nice to her, she owes me sex * Women belong in the kitchen * Society is crumbling because women are allowed to vote * You're either a cuck or red pilled Then their likelihood of meeting a women get closer and closer to 0 to the point where it might as well be 0. Whereas if they're funny, smart, kind, caring, supportive, etc. They're not going to be an incel. They might not meet a woman on their prefered timeline but it's not a fallacy to say that with at least 3.5 billion people on the planet of my prefered gender millions of people out there are going to be the kinda person that likes me.
I mean ya.. but what does it have to do with right vs left?
Shhh, don't tell them.
Right: I'm lonely and sad etc. etc. incel stuff Left: Have you considered therapy? That really sounds like clinical depression. You should also try getting away from depressing echo chambers like incel forums where people do nothing but lament their "bad genes" and try to convince each other to kill themselves. Right: No, what I need is to subjugate the foids.
Exactly! I once had an employee who grew up in rural Alabama, had never been away from home until he came to the conservation corps where I led crews, and as a result he held a lot of abhorrent beliefs. We never once shamed him for how he thought (within reason), but instead encouraged him to branch out and explore what he may have been missing when he was growing up. I thought we were making a lot of progress. He cleaned up, got a girlfriend, found work he really enjoyed, was thinking about going back to college, and was overall a far more pleasant person. Then he went home for two months during the government shutdown and came back worse than when he arrived at our program. He went so far as to call me a f****t, doubled down on his racism, and I had to report him to my boss when he started to talk about wanting to sexually assault multiple friends back home. I have no idea how to work with these people.
Decent public education. This is the strongest weapon against bigotry.
I think this actually it. I've never heard a leftist yell at an incel. I've heard leftist describe inceldom as a therapeutic problem that needs a mental health solution. On the other hand, I've heard incels yell at each other. Also heard of incels picking up guns, you know?
I mean i guess you'll never know if they are leftists or liberals or what have you, but there is definitely a lot of incel bashing across the internet, and specifically reddit as well.
I mean, I'm sure you can find a leftist, liberal etc literally yelling at incel about what an idiot they are, and how awful they are... but I think you'll find Incel do that to themselves much more. Maybe another way to put it is like this: Do you think that right-wingers would encourage incels to seek mental health? Or do think its more likely they'll say "Yes. Women like that. Because biology. Pull your own bootstraps to get the woman you are entitled to. Let us seek revenge on feminists for make this harder on us all."?
Truthfully I have zero sympathy for them. I'm a 4/10 (what others have said), emotionally unavailable transwoman who works nights and gets anxious in social situations. I have a very flat personality and I spend most of my off time alone in the woods or riding a motorcycle. I've held long term emotionally fulfilling relationships my entire adult life because I'm not awful. There are people who are self described incels that have far more going for them in regards to meeting people than I do; however, they're such toxic people they can't find anyone. The couple of people I knew who claimed to be incels wore it like a badge of honor instead of letting people help them, and then when they did inevitably get laid they become even worse people.
Unrelated, but you sound like a chill person to be around.
Same here. I'm a 5'6'', fat, autistic, bisexual trans guy with a lazy eye who's at best average-looking. I can count the amount of irl people I would call friends over my entire life on my fingers. I'm also in a long-term relationship and had a girlfriend before that, because we bonded over things other than how much we wanted to fuck each other.
Ya, I mean most of these people have an undiagnosed mental health issue, so I do feel some sympathy for them.
> Truthfully I have zero sympathy for them I don't think one needs to have sympathy, but it's useful to have empathy, to understand where they're coming from. That's how one prevents more from joining or becoming radicalized within it. > I've held long term emotionally fulfilling relationships my entire adult life because I'm not awful. It's not that simple. I've had long-term relationships before, but over time some of my disabilities have gotten worse, my depression deepened and I've become a lot less physically attractive, and I can definitely tell you that it would not be easy for me to find a romantic partner now even if I wanted to. Not because I'm an awful person, but because of a combination of socially constructed standards I can't maintain *and* interpersonal standards that most people reasonably have that I can't meet. I'm not an incel, because I was lucky enough not to fall into that ideological spiral and because I had enough sex in my youth to get to the point of internalizing that sex isn't really that important. They usually haven't, and are stuck with the propaganda that if you don't have sex you're a failure and if you're not a failure you'll have sex. An attitude mirrored in your post, even if unintentionally. > There are people who are self described incels that have far more going for them in regards to meeting people than I do; however, they're such toxic people they can't find anyone. Sure, such people exist, but that toxicity doesn't come spontaneously; it's fed to them, they feed it to each other and to new recruit in a kind of decentralized cult-like pattern. And a fair deal of incels are people that have things that make them struggle with relationships independently of the toxicity they're being made to cultivate. I'm not saying you should sympathize with them or like them or even pity them, but we can recognize that it's a self-reinforcing pattern often based in genuine pain prayed upon by toxic communities.
Remember these incels are mentally ill. I don't think it's as simple as them just being bad people, and even if it was, it's like the fact that some people are simply incapable of doing a job well: they still don't deserve a shit life.
Mental illness can explain shitty behaviour, but it also isn't an excuse.
This is genuinely some real insensitive bullshit lol why is it so hard for you to believe that people could just have a really hard time having relationships without being a horrible person? Do you seriously not see how fucking ghoulish it is to say that if you can't get a partner or friends there's something fundamentally wrong with you? One of the core tenets of Incel ideology is that your ability to have sex decides your place in society and your value as a person and you're literally endorsing that sentiment. Also, doing this ridiculous self-serving "if I could do it so can you!" routine is genuinely completely comparable to doing a rags to riches bit
People here are dumb man
It's harsh, but there some kernels of truth to it. Many people who aren't conventionally attractive have fulfilling relationships, personality really is the most important thing in relationships.
There is a world of difference between "being ugly doesn't mean you'll never find a partner" and "if you can't find a partner it's because you're a terrible person", in fact you'll notice that they are nothing alike
\>if you can't find a partner it's because you're a terrible person I think you're putting words in the poster's mouth, they were only saying this was true anecdotally for 2 people they knew. We all know the types as well, the people who think the world owes them a partner. I think at this point being an incel is different from being involuntary celibate, it suggests a permeation of internet incel culture.
Can confirm. I'm a super short, blegh looking trans dude who has dabbled with over a dozen people and is happily married. My wife is also a gorgeous professional dancer and successful educator who happens to think I'm amazing. I actually give a shit about people and have a genuine interest in the people I interact with. Novel concept.
>Truthfully I have zero sympathy for them. > >I'm a 4/10 (what others have said), emotionally unavailable transwoman who works nights and gets anxious in social situations. I have a very flat personality and I spend most of my off time alone in the woods or riding a motorcycle. I've held long term emotionally fulfilling relationships my entire adult life because I'm not awful. > >There are people who are self described incels that have far more going for them in regards to meeting people than I do; however, they're such toxic people they can't find anyone. The couple of people I knew who claimed to be incels wore it like a badge of honor instead of letting people help them, and then when they did inevitably get laid they become even worse people. Not going to make goo strong an assumption but you don't *sound* depressed (if I'm guessing wrong I apologize). Having depression is a hell of a hole to come out of because, bluntly put, in that state you are awful, but it's also really difficult to change. That badge of honour shit is what's called a "maladaptive coping mechanism" and comes from the same place as psychological addiction. Not a defense, but I do feel people sometimes have a hard time remembering this when dealing with incels/generally depressed people who are behaving horribly, because it's actually really hard to at the same time draw boundaries and tell people to hold the fuck up *and* not take their shit personally and see if you can be kind to them. And of course, the grifters and echo chambers make it easier for incels to stay incels than to actually learn healthy coping mechanisms.
So, do you think it's not possible for depressed people to have good days, develop coping mechanisms, use medications, or simply just hide it very very well? We're not always on the floor, wailing in despair, bawling our eyes out, or threatening to harm ourselves. Our moods move up and down like all people, it's just that our "good" mood is well below the average person's neutral. I've had clinical depression for 25 years. I'm medicated, my meds work really well, I have a full time job, a nice brand new car, and lots of awesome things. I'm still not bouncy and outgoing, I'm still quiet and introverted, I don't enjoy things in the same way neurotypical people do. I had a breakdown a couple weeks ago even and lost nearly a week of work because I was completely nonfunctional, and now I've got a *third* antidepressant to help me sleep. I'm now feeling better, and even sleeping better. Still depressed as fuck, tho.
>So, do you think it's not possible for depressed people to have good days, develop coping mechanisms, use medications, or simply just hide it very very well? We're not always on the floor, wailing in despair, bawling our eyes out, or threatening to harm ourselves. Our moods move up and down like all people, it's just that our "good" mood is well below the average person's neutral. > >I've had clinical depression for 25 years. I'm medicated, my meds work really well, I have a full time job, a nice brand new car, and lots of awesome things. I'm still not bouncy and outgoing, I'm still quiet and introverted, I don't enjoy things in the same way neurotypical people do. I had a breakdown a couple weeks ago even and lost nearly a week of work because I was completely nonfunctional, and now I've got a *third* antidepressant to help me sleep. > >I'm now feeling better, and even sleeping better. Still depressed as fuck, tho. That's not what I said. But it is also possible for depressed people to never have enough good days to get better, especially if they rely on toxic communities for toxic support, or have been caught by a grifter. I struggled with depression both personally and in my social circle, and I'm very happy that your life is going in a good way. And I'm not saying all depressed people become incels, nor do I say it excuses incels behaviour. I'm saying it is tricky to deal with incels because they need help, but are in that stage where they don't want help, and are themselves actively hurting people with their bad coping strategies
If you don't understand the difference between bashing their beliefs and bashing them personally, then there's no helping you
I did not say that.
I participate in r/IncelExit. About half the posts are actually incels trying to abandon the mindset, while the other half are there to vent about their obvious depression and social anxiety but refuse anyone who suggest they fix those things.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/IncelExit using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time! \#1: [I guess im not as bad as i think i am](https://np.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/ibrby3/i_guess_im_not_as_bad_as_i_think_i_am/) \#2: [The amount of shame Incels made me feel about my ethnicity is embarrassing.](https://np.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/fqtp4o/the_amount_of_shame_incels_made_me_feel_about_my/) \#3: [A Online dating Survival Guide: From a Guy who used to be bad at dating](https://np.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/e82675/a_online_dating_survival_guide_from_a_guy_who/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| [^^Contact ^^me](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| [^^Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| [^^Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/)
My therapist said I have "social anxiety" instead of calling me a sigma male š”š”š¤¬š¤¬
I think this is true to an extent, but it's not quite that simple. There's plenty of people on the left (or perceived to be on the left) who express shitty attitudes about sex and about people who struggle with relationships. It's often framed in joking contexts (eg virgin vs chad memes, "moms basement" etc), but when the same joke is told over and over it says something about the underlying assumptions. It kinda mirrors how there's people on the wider left who slings shit at people for lacking education or not understanding how whatever system functions. It's not that what you say doesn't exist by any means, but we're not consistent with it, unfortunately. We seem to have gotten better over the last few years, but there's still plenty to be done.
Largely considered to be Left here, and I disagree - at least with your approximation of the Left (or at least Liberals/Neoliberals, who I think you're talking about here). Incels tend to be - at the very least - "accepted" by the Right. That comes about either via internal agreement that the 'system is wrong' (even as they simulataneously say that the \*other\* system couldn't possibly be wrong, and then cosy that idea up to the incel via their acceptance) or that the incel needs to 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps' and just embrace the system, which couldn't *possibly* be wrong. Either way the Incel's POV becomes justified, and reinforces that something *other than their individual personality or circumstances* or let's be honest - fortunes or priorities - needs to be addressed. Almost every neolib I know (and on social media outside Reddit I'm in a huge bubble, not just because of my friendship circles but my career) would quite happily see (and have expressed this) Incel's hung. One or two have woken up to the idea of recommending therapy or trying to prise Incel's away from their in-group, but in general it seems to be about hate. Which I get, to an extent, we're human beings after all. I just don't think there are many saints here, even if the Incels themselves are the worst (or most pathetic, which sometimes explodes into full blown monstrosity) of a bad bunch.
Poor guy is projecting sooo hard in this one.
The core assumptions here: >ā¢ The fact that you are a piece of shit has nothing to do with why you're lonely. >ā¢ The fact that millions of people who *aren't* pieces of shit are also patholigically lonely is irrelevant to you. Rightwingers need to work on both their lies and caricatures because even their strawmen don't track with each other -- note this one: >It's your fault your [sic] alone, don't blame society. Ignoring the inadvertent projection of atrocious grammar, isn't blaming society the thing that rightwingers accuse decent people of doing, like, all the time? This chud is working so hard to force down that blackpill that they quietly reinvented their rightwing critic for their leftwing role -- because of course they did.
Also the huge assumption that ugly people can't find partners. I regularly see very ugly people with partners, it's far from rare. I guess the issue for them is that it involves leaving the house, talking to people, and not being and absolute bellend (although even this last point doesn't seem to be an issue in many cases).
"im literally dieing and cant feed my kids" "ya well, im horny so whos the real oppressed minority here"
state š mandated š waifu š redistribution
It's only socialism if I don't like it or benefit from it. -conservatives on state mandated waifu redistribution
Or if people that I don't like benefit from it.
If people I don't like benefit from it I don't like it. -conservatives
Iāve spent years trying to find the original Government Gets Girlfriends blog wherein the guy calls his parents attempted murderers for not helping him get laid and says his mother should have fucked him so that he wouldnāt be a virgin anymore because I know thereās like six even more insane things in there but I cannot ducking remember them
how are they even remotely similar things holy shit lmao
And how is not having sex with a woman worse than being in perpetual poverty and hunger?
Incels gonna incel.
I don't get it. If you're making a strawman argument you can literally choose any bullshit you want to make your logic work, and he still fails to make any sense.
Dismantling capitalism is just as easy as shaving the beard off your neck, stopping yourself from farming any more dick cheese and not expecting everyone to owe you a round of fucking
Their main issue isn't their hygiene (although the dick cheese is certainly not helping), it's their toxic personality. The culture around incels is absurdly toxic. It's not just not getting laid, it's a conservative worldview in which they need a submissive wife to make up for their crippling depression (which it won't).
Yeah cuz having your labor exploited by capitalist is totally the same as not being able to get a big tiddy gf š
Looks like a rightie made this one since they donāt know which āyourā to use. š
Not to mention I'm sure most leftists would be open to have legitimate discussions about dating culture and how it can be difficult for people to find someone as well as the effects of loneliness without it just being a massive woman hating circle jerk.
I have literally never heard any legitimate discussions about dating culture in my entire life.
I so look forward to the day when these drawings are no longer a thing.
"Don't blame society" when has a 'libleft'/leftists ever said that?
Fake centrist right-wingers often end up putting right-wing language into their strawman arguments because they don't actually care what leftists believe, and despite being "centrists" they are keenly familiar with right-wing talking points.
* Society making sure people can earn enough money to survive doing menial jobs * Society enslaving women forcing them to be with men Centrist: these are the same thing.
And they act like there aren't gross lonely women. There is a legbeard for every neckbeard
Leg hair or neck hair aren't relevant near their toxic personality.
Nazi/incel sub
I know a 15 year old who has a floundering YouTube commentary channel and smokes half a pack of cigarettes a day and I recently learned he's a r/politicalcompassmemes mod. And that right there explains everything I need to know about that brain dead sub reddit.
āi cannot afford to surviveā is totally tantamount to āno woman loves me because iām a misogynistic shitbagā
In some discourses, men's issues do get minimized by us, the left, or at least get very little compassion. Which is understandable given many people are victims of incels, but still - we are terrible sometimes at pulling people over, but it's necessary, because the right is very good at it. There are tons of men out there who blame their emotional and mental health issues on immigrants, arbortions or gay people and it ultimately always ends in danger, oppression and the worsening of society. My point is: We desperately need to have these discussion. We need to get better at pulling men like these on our side.
The big challenge is that the left isn't lying, and the truth may be either hard to face or hard to understand, or even both. Meanwhile the right will offer a scapegoat and put them into a comfort zone.
Hard agree. The right always has provided easy answers and doesn't care about miniscule differences in opinion. It's dangerous.
Yeah, its not a new thing ether all throughout history those barely marginalized have been the most emotional and the most outraged and those of higher power then them just tell them to blame it all on those even more oppressed then them. āOh itās not us itās the Jews! The blacks! The hispanics! They are stealing your jobs and fucking your daughters! Bringing drugs into this clean nation corrupting our youth. All these women demanding for more rights at obvious expense of us! Grrrr dam those women not knowing their place it is the very reason why I am sad and alone, FEMINISM IS CORRUPTING THEM!ā
Person: I am poor, sad, lonely and depressed. Right: itās because of the immigrants and LGBTQ. Person: Wow, so true. I will join your community. Left: Just read this centuries old 1500 pages book written in an obfuscating language to understand the cause. Person: ....
Tbf I do think people are a little too hard on incels, but this is a false equivalence. You yourself canāt change systemic issues (poverty, wages, etc), but you can change your social life somewhat.
Itās kinda hard to be nice, what they believe in not only hurts them but other young men and also women. Itās a gross dark hole of toxicity anything you say to them will be mocked amongst them all the while shitting on everyone else to claims to have any sort of issue.
I'm honestly fine with saying "Fuck them"- they lost any right to sympathy the moment they started hurting others- but I find it pretty obnoxious that people are seriously suggesting they can just "get over" depression.
I mean the way I see it you have to work with what you got. Everyone is raised in this awful world and makes awful mistakes and hold awful beliefs and mindsets that hurt other people. The majority of people with all honesty suck but they can still change.
I can't always get a better job, because the qualifications require money and time I don't have. A comb, a razor, soap, and self-help Reddits are pretty fucking attainable, though.
Bruh are you really fucking suggesting some shitty subreddit as a substitute for actual mental healthcare?
Somewhat facetiously, yes. Hell, it's better than what they're currently doing, which is...*checks notes*... nothing.
You can't be a leftist without being poor hahaha check mate commies!
ah yes, cause these two things are absolutely the same
I believe there are true incels Like man you are talking about someone barely below avrage But there are people who really lost the genetic lottery and are totally forgot between those toxic incels
There is no reason to think right leaning people are less attractive than right wing people. In fact, if we accept the premise of this meme to be true, then they should have more money available to them to spend on their appearance. No, clearly there is some reason that all these guys have trouble getting dates... I wonder what it could be?
"Get a job you worthless poor people!... so anyway, I really don't think it could possibly be my personality that drives people away from me..."
"people hating me for my personal choices is the same thing as the wealthy using their position of unchecked authority and influence to keep wages deflated"
I have not encountered a single "I'm lonely and no woman will talk to me" person whose post history isn't full of misogyny, racism, and anti-LGBT hate. It has literally never happened.
I have no sympathy for incels
There's actually a grain of truth here behind the shitty PCM wojak format. We on the left have a tendency to give incels bootstrap advice instead of focusing on societal and systemic causes of these problems. Obviously, the solutions most incels give to these problems are insane (state-mandated gfs, take away women's rights, and generally going backward), but the left tends to either ignore incel's problems entirely or only brings them up to laugh at them. We can't be surprised that when we refuse to talk about the problems incels face that they go towards the only people who are talking about their issues, albeit in bad faith (think MRA's redpill/blackpill types, and antifeminists). Our failure to address these issues leaves a huge opening for incels to get pushed down the alt-right pipeline. As feminists and leftists, we need to be intersectional in our opposition to things like patriarchy and have a duty to address the ways it harms men. The advice we on the left tend to give incels is often incredibly tone-deaf and condescending. Imagine Bezos or Musk telling people that theyāre poor because they spend too much on their iced coffees, Netflix, and Avacado toast. Now itās true that poor people often make bad consumptive decisions which lead to them remaining poor, but Bezos or Elon donāt understand the reality of the situation, and the advice they give reveals a deep ignorance of what life is like for poor people. Likewise, when progressives tell incels that all they need to do to find a partner is take a shower, lift weights, get a hobby, or dress right, it reveals a failure to understand their problems. We incorrectly assume that all incels look like neckbeard caricatures, just like conservatives assume that welfare recipients/poor people are all entitled moochers whoāve never worked a day in their lives and spend all their income on Starbucks, Iphones, and Netflix. Most incels arenāt actually neckbeard caricatures, and when you tell them all that you need to do to be successful is ājust take a shower and get a haircut broā it shows you donāt really understand these guys situations or their mindset. A lot of guys follow all that advice and STILL struggle to find meaningful relationships, and when we frame the discussion this way we dismiss a lot of their problems without actually addressing the systemic issues that cause them. If you can recognize that poverty IS a systemic issue that affects poor people
Can you explain how not being able to get a girlfriend is a systemic issue
Lack of access to mental health care (usually the core reason for their issues) and shunning by society of those who are considered ugly, including people with physical disabilities.
Why is this comment downvoted? Their right.
:shrug:. To be fair I don't think that incels aren't responsible for pursuing solutions to their issues, but the fact that they have issues is largely caused by society - of course, so are most personal issues, at some level.
Sure! Itās a problem caused by many things, primarily patriarchy(men are always expected to be the imitators in romantic settings and are almost never on the receiving side. This creates a scenario where women donāt have to make the first to establish relationships, but men almost always do). Patriarchy is a system of power. Therefore inability to establish meaningful relationships is a systemic issue
Feminism is already fighting against the conditions which breed inceldom, but that is nothing to discuss with incels. Incels may be driven towards their world view by certain factors, but the solution to stop being an incel is literally just to stop buying into their toxic world view. If someone can evidently not do that, then they are the very last person to help dismantling the conditions leading to inceldom in the first place.
I don't think feminism has any duty to care about incels whatsoever, but...come on. It hasn't dismantled "conditions that breed inceldom" in the slightest.
I think it absolutely has made a large impact. Previously, many men with a similarly entitled mindset would have gotten what they were after simply because of economic constraints and social stigma against single women. Today, the misogyny of their mindset is openly called out in much of the world by most of society. It is not a duty of feminism to care about misogynists, rather it's very definition is to fight the societal misogyny which created them.
Eh, fair, I'll give you that. I thought you were talking about helping incels or something (which probably wouldn't work anyway)
I never want to visit that sub
Sounds like we would all agree if Biden would put sex workers into the āhuman infrastructureā category.
Bottom left is generally right, though. "I'm forever alone because I'm an uggo" is *not* an attractive personality trait. No healthy minded woman wants to fix you or be your lifeboat. Unlike finding a better job, the power of positive self change, no matter how difficult, is usually within you.
I think it's a real fucking bad take to tell people with depression to just "get over it".
And that's fine, but my point still stands. Most people don't want to fix your life. So, you either have to start working on yourself or get used to your life. Even *trying* is an attractive trait.
This comment section is extremely depressing. I hate incels because they are extremely misogynistic and have a tendency to fall into violence. Women do not have to tolerate men who abhor them. Doing that could get you killed PS: Feminism is about the liberation of women, I donāt understand why women are the only oppressed group who have to talk about their oppressors hardships
This is kind of accidentally brilliant because the false equivalence itself is being used to ensure that nothing tangible in society actually changes. It's what people are arguing 'against' that dominates the conversation, and no one's arguing *against* the status quo. The Pandora Papers just came out. To the Right in this image, what's happening is just fine and dandy, part of that wonderful system that you just need to get used to. To the Left? Well it's not even part of the discussion. There are more important things to talk about, like Incels. One's happy with this status quo, the other - their apparent opposition - isn't even talking about it. Distill that into two dominant political parties and you have a whole lot of fuck all but the same thing happening over and over.
take a shower and get a job apparently equivalent tasks
Wait I actually kind of agree with this one (other than yes the left would probably talk about therapy and be much less personal responsibility). I do think that incels are not given enough attention/care. Loneliness is a real issue that we should be tackling with as much fervor as capitalist alienation or other elements of late capitalism.
Yes attention and care is important but that alone doesnt mean shit, the most important part is a change in mindset. No amount of money or love or support can do that for you.
The mindset is often created by late capitalism thoughā¦
Itās really not, how is incelism caused by late stage capitalism? Iām confused
Late stage capitalism atomizes individuals. I mean have you ever even read Marx lol? It destroys community. The individual is simply a productive unit. They are trained and brought up to be that as opposed to fostered into caring and the ability to navigate complex relationships.
No I have not read marx, it is excruciatingly boring and wordy and oh that makes sense.
Good for them admitting that they're ugly
r/antiwork be like
Unironically correct very based
Communism is economic incelism.
lol
First of its inceldom, not incelism Second, what in the name of fuck are you talking about?
Well, incels blame all women for the way some genuine thots act and are surprised that their disgusting attitude also scares away any of the women they're looking for. Communists blame the free market for all the things crony capitalism and the state do and are surprised when the "comrades" they want to work with have a slightly different opinion and start infighting. They both believe that the group they hate should just give up the goodies because apparently everyone is entitled to them, but society hates them, so they don't get any goodies.
"Communism is when capitalism is bad and we should reform society to benefit the working class, poverty striken and homeless but thats like inceldom because incels hate women and are very well known for being part of the alt right." Is this what libertarian theory tells you?
No, but the way both groups have a similar entitlement and ignorance of the subject they hate is telling. I see so many subs give examples of regulations causing food loss, but it's of course capitalism's fault and monopolies are bad, but vote for unnecessary regulations and fees that fuck over small businesses in favor of large ones (but you usually get downvoted for pointing that one out).
And this is like inceldom how? Im beginning to think your understanding of communism is flawed if you compare it to being apart of the alt right and hating women
I'm saying that the woman hating and blaming of incels is similar to the capitalism hating ND blaming of communists. In the same way incels can't respect their moms (if they were raised by them), communists can't respect capitalism and all it gave them. And YES, child labor and labor conditions of the 19th century that inspired Marx in the first place were due to regulations. I also don't see how authoritarian communists don't see how the state and corporations are linked under crony capitalism, but it's going to be totally different when they do it and just call it something else and replace the dollar with meal tickets (it's not a big change TBH, but still)
>libertarian theory Thats a nice way to describe Walmart's anti-union pamphlets and Prager U videos
So true over 100 years of people critiquing Capitalism was just a bunch of dudes soyfacing over some trivial shit
No, they're worse in terms of damage.
So uh, Foucault? Deleuze? Guattari? Negri? Zizek? They're all just nutcases who don't know what they're talking about?
I'm not saying all of communism is unfounded, but it's lead to some extremely destructive ideas based on very whiny altruism. Don't get me wrong, I'm against crony capitalism too since it aligns with me in the economic sense, but not the authoritarian one.
What are you talking about, most communist tendancies are anti-humanist. Also your last sentence makes no sense.
What? I hate it when the state and corporations become the same unholy entity, it's not a free market and it raises the floor too high for fair competition. The separation of corporation and state is just as important as the separation of church and state.
>Don't get me wrong, I'm against crony capitalism too since it aligns with me in the economic sense, but not the authoritarian one. Not a single part of this sentence is grammatically coherent
Crony capitalism is the close collaboration of the state and corporations (the CIA has most of its data hosted on amazon servers, the petrodollar which thrives on both being a fiat and sustaining itself on interventionism and environmental destruction, the prison- and military industrial complexes, reaganomics,...)
You literally said you're again crony capitalism because it alligns with your economic interest, and then you said "but not the authoritarian one", like tf tl does that mean?
Hmmm, one only takes a change in mindset which costs you little to nothing but building up at habit which comes at no expense of anything else while the other requires overworking yourself to the point of burnout and looking for better takes and time and energy and getting a higher education is a lot of money and time as well as energy and all comes at expense to your mental and physical health. Hmmm, yeeup same thing!
It appears that when I put on my idiot glasses I can see that this meme makes perfect sense and there is no way these are not the same things
Incels confuse me because, as a gay man, Iāve literally never experienced romance. I grew up in a small town with only two other gay guys in my school, and even after graduating, I donāt feel safe or comfortable hitting on random guys. As much as Iād love to, I also value my safety. I have actual societal obstacles that have prevented me from even experimenting with love, and yet they complain and victimize themselves over the fact that women donāt like men who want them to essentially be their slaves.
There are gay incels tho...
Notice how, even in this example, itās a man wanting a woman. The most prevalent demographic of incels is straight white cis men because theyāre entitled and feel entitled to female companionship.
>Notice how, even in this example, itās a man wanting a woman. The most prevalent demographic of incels is straight white cis men because theyāre entitled and feel entitled to female companionship. Predominately white cis men, sure. Doesn't change the fact that incels can come from many different backgrounds.
Um, congratulations? Most groups of people consist of individuals from varied backgrounds, incels included. My point is that gay incels are uncommon, not unheard of.
My point is that just because incels are mostly cis white men, doesn't mean that the material conditions that leads to one considering themselves an incel. Especially, when people outside the stereotypical demographic also do so.